"I put so much pressure on myself to produce when I was pregnant. Just because there was that end date of Ooh, baby will finally come out into the world but also like this end of a chapter in my life where I would be able to produce as widely or as efficiently before I actually had the baby. So that was probably my biggest challenge during pregnancy."

~ Sarah Chaves

In this episode, Kaitlin is joined by Sarah Chaves. Sarah is a first-generation Portuguese-American author, mom and educator whose work has appeared in The New York Times, The Washington Post, Teen Vogue, and more. Her current project is a memoir about the death of her father when she was a teenager.

Sarah is also a mother to one vivacious little boy named Leo, and was three months postpartum at the time of this episode’s recording.

Sarah and Kaitlin talk about:

• The questions and topics mothers face during postpartum and beyond, plus those that many creative practitioners also face.
• The financial impact of being a mother, specifically the challenges of navigating a complete lack of a federal US maternity leave policy, which leaves so many new families in the lurch.
• Sarah's memoir and the role her mother played both as a character in her writing & work.
• And lots more.

Sarah can be found on:

Instagram: @sarita_chaves

Her website: sarahchaves.com

Related resources:

• 
  
• Some further reading on the false dichotomy between motherhood and creativity that Sarah talks about.
• 
  

Please subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and give us a rating. This will help us reach more listeners like you who are navigating the joys and pitfalls of artistic and parenting identities.

For regular updates:

Visit our website: postpartumproduction.com

Follow us on Instagram: @postpartumproductionpodcast

Subscribe to our podcast newsletter on Substack: https://postpartumproduction.substack.com

𝐄𝐩𝐢𝐬𝐨𝐝𝐞 𝟎𝟏: 𝐑𝐞𝐝𝐞𝐟𝐢𝐧𝐢𝐧𝐠 𝐌𝐨𝐭𝐡𝐞𝐫𝐡𝐨𝐨𝐝’𝐬 𝗪𝐨𝐫𝐭𝐡 𝐓𝐡𝐫𝐨𝐮𝐠𝐡 𝐀𝐫𝐭 𝐰𝐢𝐭𝐡 𝐌𝐞𝐦𝐨𝐢𝐫𝐢𝐬𝐭 𝐒𝐚𝐫𝐚𝐡 𝐂𝐡𝐚𝐯𝐞𝐬

Kaitlin Solimine:

All right. I guess we're live. This is really cool. Hi, Sarah. .

Sarah Chaves: Hi!

Kaitlin Solimine: how are you?

Sarah Chaves: Good. How are you?

Kaitlin Solimine:

Good. So Sarah, we met a very long time ago, a decade ago, I think.

Sarah Chaves: a decade ago. A decade.

Sarah Chaves:

Yes. In Portugal. In Portugal. Mm-hmm and where we were both young. You were a much younger writer. I was, I was younger, but you were much younger. .

Sarah Chaves: wow. I was 20. Holy. Yeah. Oh, can we swear on this?

Narration:

I'm Kaitlin Solimine and this is the postpartum production podcast. Every other week. I talk with artists who are also mothers and caregivers about their postpartum creative process. You can find out more about the podcast at www.postpartumproduction.com, where you can also sign up for our newsletter.

Kaitlin Solimine:

Today. I'm talking with writer, Sarah Chaz, and yes, we can swear on here. If we want. This podcast is a space for authentic filled conversations with new creative moms, and we are far from perfect. Maybe we just need to scream headphones whenever there's about to be some inappropriate language for small children. Anyway, you all can let me know what works best for you. back to this episode, which I'm very excited to share. Sarah and I met in Portugal while at an incredible conference called the disquiet international literary program in Lisbon. We were living in this beautiful century's old home, and we were both scholarship recipients. And at the same time, we also fell in love and obsessed with paste anda, which is delicious. Sarah is an author, an educator whose work has appeared in the New York times, the Washington post teen Vogue, the anthology writers of the Portuguese, diaspora, and more she's at work on a memoir about her father's death when she was a teenager.

Kaitlin Solimine:

And she's an all around wonderful human and oh right. She's the mother to a vivacious little boy, Leo who at the time of our taping was just four months old. Our conversation touched on so many topics, new mothers face during postpartum and beyond, as well as those, that many creative practitioners also face like what's the worth of creative work? What does it mean to be productive? How might we reframe our experience of being mothers? So we feel less guilt about not being good enough mothers or good enough artists. This was the first episode I recorded during my postpartum period. My daughter Lyra was just under two months old at the time. And I was surprised by how we were both able to have a conversation that felt so thoughtful despite the fact that we were clearly both very sleep deprived.

Kaitlin Solimine:

I've noticed you did a lot of writing prior to it looked like prior to your pregnancy or during your pregnancy. And you've had even a little bit published since you had your child. So if you wanna talk, I guess a little bit about that experience of how you've navigated things so far, or what's really coming to mind for you and what has been the biggest challenge for you through this?

Sarah Chaves:

I put a lot of pressure on myself when I was pregnant, because you would get all of those conversations with other women, especially moms and other caregivers in my life to be like, just wait till the baby comes. It's all gonna be over. So I had like, you're not gonna get any sleep. You're not gonna do this. So I put so much pressure on myself to produce when I was pregnant, just because there was that end date of, Ooh, the baby will finally come out into the world, but also like this end of a chapter in my life where I would be able to produce as widely or as efficiently before I actually had the baby. So that was probably my biggest challenge during pregnancy, cuz I was just. , do, do, do, do, do go, go, go, go, go. Which landed me in the hospital at least three times. .

Kaitlin Solimine: Oh...kay!

Sarah Chaves: Yeah.

Kaitlin Solimine:

I remember seeing some of that. What was that because of exhaustion or what were you doing? Wow.

Sarah Chaves:

Yeah, I mean, I ha I've always been anaemic, but then the anaemia kind of really kicked off during pregnancy and I had to, um, be on iron pills and everything like that. Mm-hmm, nothing crazy, but just enough that I had to go into the hospital, I think three times for over exhaustion dehydration. And then at one point I was contracting pretty regularly. They were not even Braxton Hicks. They were actual contractions, but just the baby wasn't ready yet. Like they checked my cervix and everything was fine, but they're like, yeah, you need to, you need to slow down.

Kaitlin Solimine:

So how did that feel? I mean, I know that you, I also, actually, what we haven't talked about is your book and the memoir that you were working on. I need to know more about it because we haven't caught up about that as well. But what does that mean, I guess, to you, in terms of slowing down in that moment, what did that look like and how did you, how did you navigate that?

Sarah Chaves:

Not well, not well at all, just because for someone like me who is so type a, and it was so driven to just get stuff done and progress in my career in all different facets, it was very, very difficult to just to say, okay, I'm gonna just lay on the couch and take a nap or I'm going to just put my feet up and not obsessively, clean the house and try to nest. It was very difficult to the point where my husband was just like, I got this. Even letting him like vacuum the rugs was just such a huge deal for me to just even let that tiny task go. So it wasn't until the very end when I, it was my third stint in the hospital and I was like, okay, I need to stop. And I actually was able to take maternity leave two weeks early, prior to my due date. And those two weeks, I was just like, you know what, I, I can't, I can't do it. I have to stop writing. I have to stop trying to publish things or I have to stop trying to teach. I just, I need to stop. And I did. And it was good. It was great.

Kaitlin Solimine:

Did you find that what I've noticed and, and what I'm curious if others have noticed, is that a relationship to like, what is productive and what is productive time and what is productive space and what is creativity even? And like, where does that come and how do you harness it and where does it go moving forward? Like where I know, well, actually tell us a little bit more, cause we haven't talked about how old your child is, like where you are in this, this journey.

Sarah Chaves:

Yeah. I'm three months postpartum had a baby boy named Leonardo. We call him Leo healthy, healthy baby boy. So cute. So full of energy and laughter and super observant. Yeah. I'm just so lucky. He's such a good baby. And then which then makes me think of like how, what is a quote unquote good baby versus like a bad baby but that's like a whole nother thing, but yeah, generally right now I feel good postpartum three months postpartum mm-hmm

Kaitlin Solimine:

And I know you had a journey in terms of your birth and early postpartum that you've written about a little bit. I mean, I don't know if I've seen well, you've published, but also you've written about in your own like social media accounts too. Yeah. So I feel like I've seen glimpses of that journey. How do you feel like that has impacted the trajectory of your work as a whole?

Sarah Chaves:

I think again, as a type, a person in just like control is like my biggest like toxic habit. Like I just need to be in control 110% of the time, all the time. So when I finally went into the hospital to give birth, when I finally went into labor, first of all, it was I think three days post my due date. So I was already like, nah, like I'm, I'm already so many days past, like I just need to get this out. And then as soon as I was like, you know what, I can't control when, when it's gonna happen. Like just let it go. That's when I started contracting, but after several hours of labor and pushing Leo, I don't actually know the correct medical term for it, but he was sideways. He wasn't even sunny side up. So we were pushing and pushing and pushing and he would just not come.

Sarah Chaves:

He was not budging at all. They tried to rotate him, but he just, he just wouldn't. So I went and did a C- section and that was not what I wanted, not what I expected and had to do a lot of reflection, post the C-section because talk about letting go I'm I'm strapped to a table mm-hmm and I can't see, I can't do anything. Um, I just like see him raised up and be like, oh yeah, he's here. It's a boy not being able to hold him right away or have that skin to skin. It took a lot. And it took a lot of reflection post once I finally got home and was able to kind of sink back in and really think about the experience. Yeah. It was just a lot

Kaitlin Solimine:

Mm-hmm yeah. I mean, it sounds like, I mean, I don't know if I'm able to, I'm not gonna play therapist. I'm not gonna, um, ask you why are you so type a Sarah no, that I wanna ask you. Why are you so type a Sarah?

Sarah Chaves:

Oh, I know the reason .

Kaitlin Solimine:

I mean, I think it's an important question because I think obviously like we through becoming parents have to, I guess, I mean, I hate the term give up because what are we giving up? I mean, obviously it's just change. It's just a transition, right? It's like, and I think that happens in so many different iterations in our lives, right? Whether it's like a loss or a gain of a human or a move or a loss of a job or whatever, right. Like there's so many ways in which we have to change. And so I don't know, like the language, even what you're saying about early on what you were told about how you're not going to be able to, what was the word? I forget what the wording was. Cause, you know, yeah.

Sarah Chaves:

You're not, you're not gonna be able to do X, Y, Z, right? Like

Kaitlin Solimine:

All of that expectation and language that is perpetuated through the experience rather than it being like, things are gonna be different. Yes. They're gonna be different. It doesn't mean that that identity is lost per se. But I think that it just becomes like a new, you have now just more identities, right? Like you have more that you're holding at once. So I'm, you know, I'm also really impressed that it's only been three months and you're able to even process this and talk about that experience in a way that feels like you've done that reflection and I'm sure it will continue to, you know, morph as you go. But yeah, I'm curious. I mean, let's dig in a little bit about what it is to be what you call yourself in terms of a type a person and how that has shifted or not through this experience and how it's relating to your work and like what your relationship with your own creativity and your own creative self looks like now

Sarah Chaves:

It's an adjustment, like you said. I think the reason why I struggled so much immediately after Leo was born was because I had put all those expectations in my mind about letting go of everything, but then realizing postpartum exactly what you're saying. Like, no I'm still me. I still wanna create, I still wanna publish.

And then feeling like I wasn't able to, or feeling like I have this baby now. So he needs to be my number one priority and I can't do these other things. I think that's what really sent me into a really negative mental space, which I think really played a big part in my postpartum depression. Mm-hmm specifically in not kind of having any type of real grounding as to who I was now, now that I was a mother. Does that make sense?

Kaitlin Solimine:

Yeah. No, definitely. And what, I mean, I assume you're still in a constant, you know, reevaluation of that, but like what does that look like? Whether it's on a daily basis or, you know, how are you navigating, how you hold those two identities at the same time or how you shift between them or are they like, do you see them as separate or are they melding in some way? Or what does that look like for you?

Sarah Chaves:

I think right now they're very, they're very separate to me. And I think I also had this vision that because I'm on maternity leave from the school year and I was, I'm fortunate enough to be able to financially, uh, take the full year off. So I'm actually not going back to work until August until this Upcoming school year, which

Kaitlin Solimine:

I shouldn't say wow, that should just be of course of

Sarah Chaves: .

Sarah Chaves:

Right, right, right, right. But I wanted to combat those traditional views of like, of what everyone was telling me that life was gonna be different. I wanted to be like, no, I'm not, I'm gonna be super mom. So I'm gonna have this baby on my side and typing at the same time and like being the best of both. And obviously , that is just not the case because I can't write as vulnerably and as explicitly as I want and really bleed on my keyboard while my baby is, you know, spitting up on me and demanding my attention and my care. So it's been a real adjustment and it's been a real kind of, if I'm gonna be blunt, a real slap in the face over and over and over to recognize that I don't think I can do both at the same time and I need space to take care of Leo and I, then I need space for my writing. Mm-hmm and that's okay. That, that does not make me any less of a quote unquote supermom, if that makes sense.

Kaitlin Solimine:

Let's unpack that a little bit.

Sarah Chaves: OK. I

Kaitlin Solimine:

Think I'm interested in like why you have this vision of a or where that comes from.

Sarah Chaves:

Honestly, it comes a lot from my background as a first generation Portuguese woman. Mm-hmm I see my mother and I see my aunts and I see my grandmothers. Most of them are stay-at-home mothers and just did not work. It worked in a sense of getting that paycheck. And throughout my life, I consistently looked at these women with pity, with real pity and it hurts. And it, it makes me nauseous to think about that. And now that I am a mother and realize exactly what it is that they did day in and day out, but I looked at them with real pity and wanted so much more for, for them outside of taking care of a family. To me, that was always less than that always made me feel like, Ugh, I need to strive for more in my life. I want more than just that.

Sarah Chaves:

So in now being a mother and being home, quote unquote and taking care of my son, I love it. And I enjoy it so much, but I think I'm still trapped in that loop of, I need to strive for more. This can't just be it. So I wouldn't say that my thinking has kind of come away completely. Like I've done a 360 cuz if I'm being honest, I don't think I have. I think if I were to be a stay at home mom and just that be that I think right now I would see that as a failure. Hmm. And there's a part of me that I need to keep working in order to kind of get away from that title as stay at home mom, because there's still a, like a pit in my stomach. When I, when I think of that word, even though now I know that that's completely false, but I think that patriarchal expectation of this is what women need to be. And this is all that they can be still stinks.

Kaitlin Solimine:

It feels very culturally specific in some ways, because I think, I mean, I do think that still exists as a dominant narrative in, in some ways and in some probably places and subcultures in the us, but I don't know if that, do you feel like that is specific to the Portuguese American community that you, or specific to your family or, you know, how would you define that? Because it feels like you're carrying a lot in that. Yeah. I don't know. You're navigating two spaces in a sense, or you're navigating, you know, you're navigating cultures and so

Sarah Chaves:

Right. Exactly. Like the Portuguese part of my identity is like, be the mother, stay at home, take care of your kid. And, and this is your role. Whereas like the American part of me is like, no, absolutely not. Like put your kid in childcare, do whatever it is that you need to do and get yourself out there and make money or see that paycheck and keep yourself on your own two feet without your husband's financial support. So it's a constant battle for me, trying to live up to both of those identities and swaying, I would say, even on a daily basis between what it is that I actually want or feel like what's more me mm-hmm I don't right now. I'm still in flu

Kaitlin Solimine:

As you probably always will be. I mean, I think that's okay. And I think that that's where, especially we as like creative mother, well mothers in general, for sure. And what we bear and what we carry in terms of the legacy of these stories. But I think that there's this expectation that you'll like, like you've said, like you'll figure it out and that there'll be some great moment where suddenly you, you feel like, oh, I'm totally balancing both of these identities. I'm totally I'm in this now. And then I'm not sitting at my computer thinking or wishing I should be in the other place or vice versa. Right. I just, you know, I think that's why I was so drawn to starting this podcast because I think there's something really vulnerable, especially in this early postpartum experience, but that then like seeps into, I mean, it doesn't really shift all that much. I mean, I'm interested to talk to others who are further along in their own, you know, experiences and relationship with parenting.

Narration:

Sarah and I also discussed the financial impact of being a mother, specifically the challenges of navigating a complete lack of a federal us maternity leave policy, which leaves so many new families in the lurch.

Kaitlin Solimine:

I'm also curious because you mentioned a paycheck and I'm curious, you know, in terms of written work, writing more, you know, in terms of the creative world, there isn't always a paycheck or it's not a living wage in any great sense. So how are you able to navigate that when you're doing work that may not be as financially, you know, durable and balancing that against like childcare costs or right. The time away from your child?

Sarah Chaves:

I think that's, what's also kind of really hitting me now is that up until I would say about two or three weeks ago, I was still getting my paycheck from being a school educator from my maternity leave that just stopped. So now up until August, I am without pay and I'm solely reliant on any freelance work that I do, or some of the instructive creative writing instructing classes that I do. Mm-hmm , which are pennies mm-hmm pennies, pennies, pennies, pennies. So that has been kind of a, a mental load on me to really you really, again, get even more hard on myself to say, okay, now that I'm not getting paid this, I need to go and search for a hundred more freelance jobs. I need to go look for content, creating, writing jobs. I need to go like I'm sending out emails upon emails every day for jobs, for freelance pitches, anything that I can try and get my hands on.

Sarah Chaves:

And there's a part of me that would love to see me be doing this full time and really make a business out of it. But then there's this other part of me, that's thinking, why am I breaking my neck, trying to do this? When thankfully like me and my husband, we are financially stable. Mm-hmm is it my own drive? Or is it this pressure again, to live up to this pedestal of me wanting to hold my own ground without my husband's financial support. And to be able to say, yes, I can do this without you. I can be my own person. And I think there's a lot of guilt and pity and just general not liking myself if I'm not able to quote unquote produce for this partnership that I have with my husband and having to rely on his paycheck.

Kaitlin Solimine:

Right. How would that look different if either you were getting financially compensated through your workplace, or you were getting financially compensated by, let's say a government entity that valued the early caregiving that you are doing and said, you deserve six months, eight months a year off from that other work that compensates you and we will give you compensation. How do you think that would shift what your experience looks like now, or how you would structure like your daily? Like what would you be doing on a daily basis? How would that change your relationship with work, with writing, with, with your motherhood,

Sarah Chaves:

Everything I honestly, now that you mentioned that I think it would change everything because right now I am on the hunt for anything in all writing that pays well and we know, or at least I know that the writing that pays well is not the type of writing that I wanna do, right. That is not the creative work that I wanna be doing on a daily basis. That's going to help my craft as a memoirist or as a creative, non fictionist. It's just writing that pays the bills. So if I was able to still be getting a check up until I went back to work in August, I think that I would be pouring much more of my energy, one into my child, two into my marriage and three into my actual creative work, rather than striving to get a paycheck.

Kaitlin Solimine: Mm-hmm

Sarah Chaves:

To hold up my end of the bargain, if that makes sense. Mm-hmm

Kaitlin Solimine:

, mm-hmm how would it feel to get paid, to be a mother? How would that change your relationship to the work that you do as a mother?

Sarah Chaves:

I can't even fathom that idea, but like, yeah, if I, uh, every Friday I'm getting, I'm getting cut a check just for, and I say just, I hate that word for, right. Just for caring for a kid,

Kaitlin Solimine:

It away, you're caring for a child while also doing work that validates you in other ways, whether it's like, okay, you're doing that work part-time and you're doing the, the caregiving part-time so you get half a child. I don't right.

Sarah Chaves:

You know, honestly what word just came to mind? Happy. I would be so happy.

Kaitlin Solimine:

You're gonna make me cry.

Sarah Chaves:

Yeah. you're gonna make me cry. I think I would be so happy because there wouldn't be this need to validate myself as a working person and there wouldn't be this poll that I need to get away from my child in order to produce in order to be a citizen. Hmm. And that's horrible.

Kaitlin Solimine:

I know. I mean, look at, or, you know, your relationship with the other caregivers in your life, who you felt like were outside of a system, right? Because it was, I mean, the system is capitalism, right? Caregiving doesn't fit that. So how would that have shifted if your mother, your aunts had been drawing a paycheck in some way, or been able to say, Hey, here's a way I can help to also support this family in this way where it seems as supportive. It's like legitimized, at least in the capitalist system. Cuz obviously it's supportive. It's free labor though, but right,

Sarah Chaves:

Right.

Kaitlin Solimine:

So if it suddenly becomes somehow compensated,

Sarah Chaves:

It might have been that drastic enough to change my entire trajectory of life truly because had I seen my mother or my aunts or my grandmother is being paid for the incredible amount of labor that they did, then that would've changed my entire perspective about not only motherhood but womanhood and what it means to be a woman not. And I don't, and I don't even wanna use words like, uh, the working woman, but what it means to be a woman that is valued is credited is seen in the household and outside of it.

Kaitlin Solimine:

So you feel like there's a visibility. I mean, it sounds like you're saying that there's an invisibility of what the women in your lives were doing.

Sarah Chaves:

Absolutely. And when I think back to some of the writing that I've done about my mother in particular, it was only towards the later years of constantly redrafting my memoir, which is about my dad's death and how his death as a sole patriarch of a family, how that death kind of deconstructed our entire immigrant family and kind of brought it down to its knees, how I had so much value in an admiration and respect for my father who worked 10, 12 hour days and built his own flooring company from the ground up. And I had no such respect for my mother because all I saw was a woman who cooked, cleaned, took care of us. And that was it. And it was only in writing those drafts that I realized she was the one who was cutting those checks. She was the one who was doing all of the math to make sure he had the right amount of carpet. She was writing out the invoices. She was the one who was calling clients. She was always in behind the scenes, in every single part that he did. And yet I saw none of it until recently, which makes me so sad and so angry, especially now thinking about how I would feel as a mother. If my child only saw me as a caregiver and didn't see me for everything else that I was doing, mm-hmm

Kaitlin Solimine: ,

Sarah Chaves:

It makes me really sad

Narration:

In digging in deeper about Sarah's memoir. We talked about the role, her mother played both as a character in her writing and work and the real struggles her mother faced in recognizing her own value as a caregiver.

Kaitlin Solimine:

How does it fit within the structure of the whole book, that piece cause

Sarah Chaves:

Towards, yeah, cuz towards the beginning, I, I talk about that aspect of how I revered my father for all of this work that he did. And it, as soon as he died, all of that just went away and our savings just continued to get depleted and depleted and depleted. My mother had to go back to cleaning toilets to continue putting food on the table and how I hated that this was me as an 18 year old, 20 year old woman thinking you are so much better than cleaning someone else's toilet, get a real job, quote, unquote, get a real job. Like this is what you do at home. You need to go out and produce and, and do something that is gonna give you an actual reputable paycheck, not 50 bucks here and there. And it was only in later at the end of the memoir that I was able to reflect upon that when she came to visit me while I was on my Fulbright and Portugal, that she was the one who was doing all of that behind the scenes work and really, and kind of being the mastermind behind my father's business, she was the one holding it up.

Sarah Chaves:

He was doing the labor, but she was the one holding it up.

Kaitlin Solimine:

That's so interesting too, because had that been in some way incorporated into the business or her work, if she had that sort of working self, then would she been able, like how do you put that? Why, why wouldn't she have put that on a resume and gone out and looked for like bookkeeping work or right. Like why was that still not legitimate work?

Sarah Chaves:

And that's the problem is because she, herself as a mother, because all she had known was stay at home mom and not, as you just said, not as bookkeeper or, or as, not as all of these other identities, she would constantly say, this is all I know how to do all I know how to do is clean because she never, never, not once could envision herself outside of that box in which I think in turn, coming back to my original point, forced me to say, I never wanna see myself within that box.

Kaitlin Solimine:

Yeah, no. I mean, I literally the other day for the first time and I have now three kids and I've been in this, I guess for six plus years, or you could say, I'd say more like 10 because we were trying there. I feel like when you're trying to get pregnant, you're also in a moment of, you're trying to start a family in any way it's you should of take on a new identity anyways, separate subject, but only literally I think two days ago I was, and I still wanna do this. I know there've been like, there've been formulations around like things like breastfeeding, for example, like how much that costs in terms of, cause you know, you can, you can see how much formula costs, but how much does the, what is the cost to a woman who's breastfeeding? And I was thinking about just all the other identities that I wear in the home, whether it is like, how much does a housekeeper cost, how much does a nanny cost?

Kaitlin Solimine:

Like when you start to add that all together. Yeah. Right. Because you're doing all of those things. Mm- hmm what is the actual value? Like I would love to see I was maybe there is one I need to look. I'm sure there's been academics that have I'm sure around maybe, but I, I should spend some time and can broadcast that later. But, and if there isn't, then maybe there's a quick way to do it, but, and it's probably different in different markets too. like the cost in Des Moines is gonna look a little different than the cost in Manhattan, but still it is about the cost, but it's also just about owning that identity. Right. Of like saying, oh, these are the things that I'm doing when I'm sure she even was give, she was an advisor to your father. Absolutely. She was a board member of the company. Absolutely. And learned I'm sure. So much about the industry, right? Yeah. Or she was doing client management, she was doing sales. Like she was giving his advice on different. I mean, it's just

Sarah Chaves:

Literally, which is so funny. You say that because yesterday my husband and I's basement flooded from like a, a pipe or whatever. So we're redoing the, we're redoing the carpet. And my mom's like, why don't you call your dad's old colleague? He should be able to do it. And I was like, that's a great idea. So we . So we go to like the carpet liquidator store and my mom sees or hears about one of my father's like old, the, one of the women who, who worked at, um, at the factory store. And my mom's like, okay, so what kind of carpet do you want? This is my mother asked me, do you want this ply or this ply or like this? And I was just like, I don't know what you're talking about. So exactly what you said. Like she knew that industry inside and, and yet again for years on years and even still to this day, when I ask her, if you would like go out and get a job or no, no, no. Cuz I can I, the only thing I know how to do is clean. Oh, which makes me so mad and so sad at the same time.

Sarah Chaves:

But I understand it. I understand it fully. And I wish I had understood it more when I was younger. Cuz if I think about it, who validated her, who validated the fact that she knew how to do all of those things. Mm-hmm I certainly didn't. I don't think many other women in her life did either. I and I write it this, even in my memoir, I don't know if my father did either. So it makes sense.

Kaitlin Solimine:

Mm-hmm and that was not visible. And so, and not compensated and not validated in any way exactly. Right. Because well, we could get into that would be another conversation because, because I think anyone listening to this knows why.

Sarah Chaves: Right, right.

Kaitlin Solimine:

And how do we then do you have any suggestions as we close out this conversation? Like, do you have any suggestions on how do we as create, I mean, I think we could talk, obviously there are many ways that other individuals in different industries could work to change that. How would you as a creative? I mean, it sounds like you are doing some of that in your work, but you know, how, how would you see that moving forward? Like how are you going to

Sarah Chaves: Be seen address

Kaitlin Solimine: That? Yeah.

Sarah Chaves:

I think one engaging in conversations like this. Yes. A hundred percent cuz it makes these problems makes these issues, makes this life seen writing about it. I think I've never been a person, especially in my writing to shy away from the hard things. There's a joy for me and being so vulnerable on the page. So continue writing about these issues, continue talking about these issues, incorporating it into my work and finding ways and consistently talking to the people around me, who I love most, especially my partner, especially my husband. It's important for my husband to not only see me as his equal as his partner, but I think it's also important for me to as much as I care for my son and kind of collapse into this new identity as mother to not forget about all these other identities that are part of me as well. Mm-hmm and to not let this capital M mother identity just completely encompass me whole to remember that I am a person and that I have all of these other identities as well. And that does not make me any less of a mother.

Kaitlin Solimine: I love that.

Sarah Chaves: Yeah.

Kaitlin Solimine: Quotable.

Sarah Chaves:

I have to remind myself of that daily, daily just because I'm not with my son 24 7. And like even right now, the guilt of like being on this podcast while my mother is taking care of him, it's just like, no, that does not make me any less or any less worthy or any less of a mother.

Kaitlin Solimine:

Absolutely. Well, I think it's a gift that you are giving to him as a son, especially race. I mean, well, he was born into a certain identity that, you know, whether that shifts for him later or not, but it's one that he will carry and having, you know, being in a relationship with a man as well. I think there are, for me, I'm also, you know, in a relationship with a man and constantly navigating, especially given our age, I think in our generation of just like that conversation and the visibility of work, I mean, that is a totally new thing to many, many of us mm-hmm ourselves like those of us doing the caregiving work included. Right. And so thank you. I'm glad that you're doing that work on a daily basis. And I think it's really important. So thank you so much, Sarah, this was super enlightening and I'm excited to witness this continued work for you, um, on both sides of your identity and yeah. How you continue to navigate that. And I appreciate you sitting with me so early in postpartum as well. And like you said, you know, not being with your child at this moment and choosing this and I really appreciate that.

Sarah Chaves:

Thank you. I have sincerely loved this conversation

Narration:

As you heard. I was really moved by the conversation with Sarah. I couldn't believe that in this first episode that we were recording together, I cried, she cried, we all cried. uh, what's that quote about cats. Um, maybe that's really dating me, but it was really eye opening to talk to someone who is so in the trenches of early motherhood and was also navigating how to be a caregiver and how to also still focus on her work and have those identities and hold them in, you know, conjunction with one another and, and just explore all of the intricacies of new motherhood. And I was really grateful for her vulnerability at the same time. You know, I think what really came up for both of us was how society, especially American society sees motherhood and also creative spaces and how there is such a lack of support. As you know, I think all of these, all of our listeners will agree with, um, and then have probably experienced themselves. So I want to echo the sentiment that Sarah shared around the worth of caregiving and point listeners to some resources to advocate for paid caregiving.

Narration:

I'm your host, Kaitlin Solimine. And this is the postpartum production podcast. If you like what you've heard, please subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and give us a rating. This will help us reach more listeners like you who are navigating the joys and pitfalls of artistic and parenting identities for regular updates. Visit our website, postpartum production.com. Follow us on Instagram at postpartum production podcast and subscribe to our podcast newsletter on Substack. Thank you for listening. And we are so grateful to have you with us on this journey. Postpartum may feel like forever and sometimes it may feel very lonely, but you're not alone here.