It’s easy to become disheartened by the backlash against diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) movements in the workplace. It’s a time of inflamed political rhetoric and multiple overlapping global crises that threaten to roll back the clock on our efforts to make more equitable work environments for women.

On this episode of Breaking with Tradition, we’re reminded of words from Felice Schwartz as she looked at the radical changes she saw in her lifetime: “We can’t go on the way we have been—living new lives in the old patterns.”

What is the state of DEI in 2024? Is it all doom and gloom, or is there reason to hope for “new patterns” emerging? Our host Erin is flying solo this week and sitting down with Ruchika Tulshyan, expert, speaker and author on DEI and founder and CEO of Candour to discuss her predictions for our work this year and beyond.

Our conversation will tackle some of the biggest Future of Work trends impacting women today. Spoiler alert: There’s a lot to be excited about!

Host and guest

Erin Souza-Rezendes, Vice President, Global Communications, Catalyst

LinkedIn | Bio

Ruchika Tulshyan is the best-selling author of Inclusion on Purpose: An Intersectional Approach to Creating a Culture of Belonging at Work (MIT Press). The book was described as “transformative” by Dr. Brené Brown. She is working on her next book: “Uncompete: Dismantling a Competition Mindset to Unlock Liberation, Opportunity, and Peace” (Viking Books).

Ruchika is also the founder of Candour, an inclusion strategy practice. A former international business journalist, Ruchika is a regular contributor to The New York Times and Harvard Business Review and a recognized media commentator on workplace culture.

LinkedIn | Website

In this episode

• 1:35 | About Ruchika. Who is Ruchika Tulshyan and what is her approach to DEI?
• 6:01 | Ouch, 2024. It's been rough. Are the DEI doom and gloom headlines true? Ruchika weighs in.
• 12:57 | What's your advice? How do we shore ourselves up during these challenging times?
• 18:45 | Imposter syndrome is a systemic issue. Ruchika shares how we can make systems-level change.
• 25:35 | What does the future of work look like?
• 30:57 | Sneak Peek. The Catalyst community gets a sneak peek into Ruchika's next book.

Favorite moments

• 1:51 | Ruchika: I think of the work that I do or my approach to diversity, equity and inclusion as multi-faceted. So much of it is driven by various identities I have and hold throughout my life.
• 5:48 | Erin: I think it means so much to marry those two things and have both, the personal storytelling and the receipts of the research to uncover what is happening in workplaces around the world, particularly for women.
• 8:06 | Ruchika: I'd say the most important part of this is that a lot of these attacks are not new. They're not using, they might be using new language, they might be using different packaging around it.
• 8:21 | Ruchika: Ten years ago, when I was in the technology industry, at that time, even using the words diversity, equity and inclusion were basically completely new.
• 9:35 | Ruchika: I think actually think now we've come to a place now where it's [microaggressions] so widely understood, we can actually update it to say microaggressions are not that micro. They actually have a very macro impact on people in their lives, on their careers.
• 10:35 | Ruchika: Some part of this, I think is also the zero-sum thinking that I think a lot of people and leaders and organizations operate with. Like this idea of winner takes all.
• 11:45 | Erin: If the workplace is a place where women feel like they can show up authentically, where they're going to experience inclusion, whatever that means to them, however that feels to them and be able to succeed on their terms, whatever that means to them. Then that's good for everybody.
• 22:49 | Ruchika: Once you start to unpack the systemic issues at play it because really hard to keep saying or keep believing that it is an internal issue [imposter syndrome] that you are struggling with.
• 23:47 | Ruchika: How do you win? Until you stop taking it [imposter syndrome] on as an internal burden?
• 24:02 | Ruchika: We need to widen the table. We need to show different styles of leadership. We need to show that someone who pounds her fist, especially a woman who pounds her fist or is just her personality is such, that her leadership style is to be you know, strong, commanding, domineering, etc. is just as acceptable as someone who identifies as an introvert who's really quiet, who leads sort of in a different way.
• 26:22 | Ruchika: Gender inequity isn't necessarily men doing inequity to women. Some of the most challenging and concerning examples of gender bias I've seen in the workplace has been from women upholding very patriarchal very gender-biased norms against other women.
• 26:52 | Ruchika: I think some of the backlash is the idea of like we're separating people out into groups, we're creating more divisions, rather than understanding that systemic biases impact everyone regardless of their identity.
• 28:51 | Ruchika: I think these examples of people being able to really be their full, authentic selves is the type of future of work that I really want us to see.
• 29:39 | Ruchika: To hear from, you know white men to say to me, I identify as an introvert. I don't like speaking up at meetings. And, you know, being so commanding and domineering, it's expected of the workplace that I work at. And since we've sort of been working on inclusion much more thoughtfully and intentionally, I feel like I can bring my more quiet, more introverted self to meetings and to my leadership style.
• 23:54 | Ruchika: If we are truly going to rise, if we're truly going to create this future where everyone wins, we need to stop believing and stop only focusing on the gains that we can make as individuals or just our own community.
• 34:22 I Erin: I can think of times in you know, what I would consider fairly inclusive workspaces, being told by bosses like, oh you know, watch out, watch out for her kind of thing. And thinking 20 years ago, that doesn't seem right to me.
• 35:14 | Ruchika: A lot of what we were conditioned with, a lot of the norms, we were told about the workplace, about society don't hold true anymore.
• 35:16 | Ruchika: Just because we've done things a certain way, now that we know better we don't have to continue in that way.
• 36:26 | Ruchika: The opportunity is there, but we have to imagine it.

Mentioned on the Pod

• HBR: https://hbr.org/2021/02/stop-telling-women-they-have-imposter-syndrome
• Inclusion on Purpose
• HBR: https://hbr.org/2023/04/how-colorism-affects-women-at-work
• MIT: Dr. Chester Pierce, psychologist
• HBR: https://hbr.org/2022/03/we-need-to-retire-the-term-microaggressions
• Fortune: https://fortune.com/2024/06/04/fortune-500-companies-women-ceos-2024/
• Forbes: https://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonwingard/2019/03/11/metoo-fear-and-the-future-of-womens-leadership/
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/introducing-my-next-book-uncompete-ruchika-tulshyan/
• Unlocking Us with Brene Brown: https://brenebrown.com/podcast/brene-with-ashley-c-ford-on-storytelling-truth-telling-and-liberation/

Research you can use

• What's really causing the DEI backlash and how to fix it
• 33 ways to address the backlash against diversity, equity and inclusion
• 7 facts that prove America Ferrera's speech in Barbie is true
• Erskine, S., Brassel, S., & Robotham, K. (2023). Exposé of women’s workplace experiences challenges antiracist leaders to step up. Catalyst.
• Is DEI authentic? Caroline Wanga says we need a reframe
• The Double-Bind Dilemma for Women in Leadership (Infographic)

I really got so nice to be here with you today. so we are here to, talk about the state of diversity, equity and inclusion. We are, really excited to be kicking off a podcast for Catalyst that is called Breaking with Tradition. And we could think of no one better to be part of this discussion with us than you or.

you are continuously breaking with tradition in your work as a diversity, equity and inclusion expert and author, and a leader who helps organizations and individuals, do more and do better around DEI. So just really thrilled to spend some time with you today and talk about the state of play for diversity, equity and inclusion. Thank you Aaron.

This means so much. Thank you. so, Richard, tell us a bit about, your work and what you bring to your own practice and, how you work with clients around diversity, equity, inclusion. Before we dive into, today's discussion. Yeah. Thank you so much. So I think of the work that I do or my approach to diversity, equity and inclusion sort of is multifaceted.

so much of it is driven by various identities. These I have and hold. you know, throughout my life. So I am a woman of color. I was, born outside the United States. So I'm an immigrant, and I've actually been an immigrant in a variety of different countries. I am a mother, and I'm also just someone who has sort of worked in different industries.

I was a business journalist for many years. I worked in the tech industry, which gave me, actually, I would say the tech industry gave me a very unique insight into what it looks like to work within an industry that's very innovative, very cutting edge on the one end, of course, has a huge amount of influence and on the other, unfortunately stuck in many ways, because of not being able to or at least when I was in the industry about a decade ago, really not being able to address and confront many of the long held biases that, were very much foundational to the way that the technology industry was set up.

So for me, I would say these identities and the various sort of experiences I've had have been very, very key to, dictating the work that I do in diversity, equity and inclusion. I've been really lucky to be able to write about both some of the experiences and more than anything. you know, the, the data and some of what I've seen around, what the experiences like for women.

I like to center the experience of women of color in the workplace, especially because, I don't think it's talked about nearly enough. It's actually very heartening to see the wonderful work that Catalyst has been doing around this, because I remember when I started out writing about this, even in journalism, it was really hard to get some of the data to show that, hey, this is the experience that people are actually having.

I loved reading about and writing about, for Harvard Business Review, about the experience of women of color facing colourism in the workplace, or skin tone bias, which was research from Catalyst. And it was just it was something I had observed and seen my whole life, especially growing up in Asia, and never quite had the words to communicate like, how does it really impact the lives of women?

And yet it was impacting the lives of literally every single woman I had interacted with my entire life. Like write from my grandmother, you know, and my ancestors to, you know, the the women who I was graduating alongside at university to the women who I was, you know, interviewing with for jobs. I mean, it was so pervasive.

And so it really brings, me a lot of, you know, joy that we are working on these really hard issues together. I like to think about my work sort of marrying storytelling, you know, uncovering untold stories to really create the type of workplace that works for all. and, you know, really create the sort of environment where people feel excited to bring their full potential to the workplace every day.

particularly hearing you talk about, you know, the sort of connective tissue between what you're doing and what Catalyst, is doing. It's so heartening. And I think you know, your lived experience, should not need to be backed up with data. But since this is a reality that we live in, the fact that, you know, Catalyst can bring to bear some of that data that we know, we know from, from women's lived experiences is true.

I think it just means so much to marry those two things and have both the, personal storytelling and the sort of receipts of the research to, to show to, to uncover what is happening in workplaces around the world, particularly for women. So, excited to to dive in and hear more from you about, kind of where we are in 2024, in the state of diversity, equity and inclusion.

So, if we're just to read the headlines, and to look around, it could feel like it's a lot of doom and gloom. There are, you know, challenges to, the very idea of diversity, equity, inclusion programing, coming at us from several directions. but, you know, we at Catalyst have been at this for over 60 years as an organization and have seen the, you know, kind of ebbs and flows and, hopefully have been able to meet the moments as they come up.

And so I would just pose the question to you, what is your take on the state of diversity, equity, inclusion as a, as a practice? as we sit here in 2024? Yeah. I don't want to make light of some of the attacks that we're seeing. I mean, it is concerning, there is no doubt about that. and we are seeing it at various different levels, whether it's education, whether it's the workplace, whether it's academia.

so I don't want to make light of it. I want to I want to say that many of these attacks are very targeted and they're very real. And there is an impact. I mean, we are feeling the impact, without a doubt. At the same time, I will say I am someone who is cautiously optimistic. I haven't quite been in this work for 60 years, but I have certainly spent, over two decades in this work.

And, you know, many more. In my lived experience. I shall not name my age yet, but, what I, what I will say is what gives me sort of that hope and that comfort as we see headlines like, you know, you know, DEI doesn't, you know, shouldn't exist or reverse discrimination. what I will say what what a couple of things for say, I'd say the most important part of this is that a lot of these attacks are not are not new.

They're not using they you know, they might be using new language, there might be different packaging around it. But this field and and just thinking about the fact that ten years ago, when I was in the technology industry at that time, even using the words diversity, equity and inclusion were basically completely, new, you know, diversity people sort of understood at a high level.

But there wasn't no, no leaders I was working with were really using these words in their daily lexicon. Right. Like, it wouldn't even come up in conversations that were being had. I think of especially the understanding of what equity means and those historical barriers that have left so many people out of the workplace, out of leadership, out of being able to bring their full potential to the workplace and society.

those that word and that concept was completely not understood. I remember the first time I read about my the word microaggressions was, you know, decades ago. And of course, it has a long history of, of the academic sort of use of microaggressions, coined by Doctor Chester Pierce. but nobody I knew when I was working alongside really understood it or would even use this terminology.

And I actually think now we've come to a place where I think it's so widely understood, we can actually updated to say like, hey, microaggressions are actually not that micro. They actually have a very macro impact on people in their lives, on their careers. So I think we've actually reached a stage where we can say, like microaggressions, we all understand what that means largely.

And now let's talk about actually, it's not micro. It's, you know, these exclusionary behaviors have a big impact. So I feel like we have reached a place where those people who are really in it, who are really doing this work, you know, we're going to band together much more. There'll be a lot more solidarity than I think we've ever seen before.

And coming together, I think, is what's going to really help us get through this wave of, you know, these this fresh wave of sort of attacks and that sort of question mark of what happens will I get left behind? some part of this, I think, is also the zero sum thinking that I think a lot of people and leaders in organizations sometimes operate with.

Right. Like this idea of winner takes all. Like either you're winning because I'm losing or I'm winning because you're losing. And I think so much of doing this work really well requires us to recognize that a rising tide really lifts all boats, which, you know, again, I don't have to explain this to you, but it really does help all of us kind of envision and create that very innovative future for all.

Yes. I'm of course, nodding along because, you know, I get so spot on the, you know, the the language changes, the language evolves. and that's just, you know, a kind of a nature, the nature of the work. but what doesn't change is what we're ultimately trying to accomplish. Yeah. The language is the tactic, you know, to help us get there.

But what we're ultimately trying to accomplish is workplaces that work for women because they work for everyone like that. And that's our whole mandate, Catalyst in it. you know, it certainly sounds like that's true in your work, too, where?

If the workplace is a place where women feel like they can show up authentically, where they're going to experience inclusion, whatever that means to them, however it feels for that, and be able to succeed on their terms, whatever that means to them. then that's good for everybody. It's good for every workplace. Right? So, I, I likewise take, you know, some heart and knowing that there are people who are not backing down from this core belief that we can create equitable, inclusive workplaces, regardless of the swirl externally around us and whatever the, you know, the sort of pushback of the moment may be, at its core, this work is about our shared

humanity and the ability to to be, you know, fully seen, heard, cared for at work rate. so it's almost like the, the push back and the challenges are they're very real. They're going to take different shape. And we need to be able to sort of adapt to them. I wonder, you know, if you had to give some advice to folks who are likewise in this, in this space, and feeling maybe, you know, not quite as buoyant in this moment or needing some reminders about, how to shore themselves up.

What might you, what might you be telling your, your clients or your peers in the space? in this moment? You know, I love this question. And I will say one thing that I feel again optimistic about. Cautiously optimistic. I will say, is I'm seeing so many more people in the last, I would say, in the last 6 to 8 years, really realize that even if they have had privilege, even if they've never had to think about, you know, for example, the the example I use often because it's so personal to me when I, you know, when I'm speaking or when I'm just having this conversation, even with clients, is at the end of

this meeting. if it's winter, I have to look out the window and I have to make sure that it's not dark. And if it is, I need to have a strategy for how I'm going to leave this place safely that my male identifying counterparts don't have to have. Right. And that's which is really easy to understand. Right.

Because it's that it's it's the recognize of like this additional calculation that people who have been historically underestimated have to do every single day. What do I wear? How do I do my hair like, will it be accepted? Is this do I have how much do I have to change myself? And then, of course, the professional and personal ramifications that come with being historically underestimated and having to sort of go out of your way.

and so I what I started realizing is, again, over the last 6 to 8 years, I've noticed a lot more people who didn't ever have to think about this like that was never on their radar, suddenly start to realize it's it's their fight to. Right? Like that. Their privilege isn't going to necessarily render them or the people they love immune from some of these attacks.

And I think what makes me really hopeful is seeing so many more clients. I work with, people I work with, friends I'm now in contact with who say, like, I identify as a cis straight white man. Like I could be right at the top of, you know, this, this privilege hierarchy. And I recognize, like, this fight is not yours to fight alone.

Like I really need to be involved in this. I am going to do the work. I am going to really try and show up the way I need to. and beyond just I'm going to, you know, be part of a book club or I'm going to read this one book and not suddenly caught up, but really through very tactical action, you know, action like amplification, you know, a strategy used in the Obama administration.

I write about it in the book where, you know, male, people who identify as, you know, male who have some level of privilege and influence in the room they're part of, will actually go out of their way to recap what the woman or the person of color was saying in the room, to make sure that they get credit and they get a chance to sort of share their ideas, especially if they're being interrupted, which we know women and people of color are so much more likely to be interrupted in a meeting than our white male counterparts.

And I think that's been really heartening for me, and starting to see a lot more people say, I may be a lawyer, or I may be an accountant, or I'm a doctor. Like like DEA isn't part of my core remit, right? Like I'm not a chief inclusion officer. But I understand how being mindful of the way that I'm pronouncing people's names or making sure that I'm getting pronouns correct, or really doing an audit of who do I take on as my clients?

Or how do I talk to different patients differently? These sorts of things that sort of recognition can really have huge change. And I think those are conversations I certainly wasn't having even, you know, a few years ago. Yeah, yeah. It's like the it can feel sometimes like progress is slow and the numbers back that up. Right. In terms of, diverse representation in boardrooms and C-suite, we know that to be true.

and also if you think about to your point, you know, in 6 to 8 years, this is this is a real seismic shift in people's understanding of, not only what diversity means, what inclusion means, but what their role is in it and that it is, you know, it's everyone's it's everyone's issue. It's different. So, that that is heartening, right?

That we've made that much movement with individuals in a short amount of time. you know, we think so often at Catalyst because it's really built into our mission about systems change. So we know a movement is people moving. So there's there's an individual component to that, of course, because organizations are made up of individual people who, you know, if they can understand themselves better, their own biases better, and then make change to their behavior, then we'll see systemic change.

But, we're really looking at how do we, support organizations and leaders, create system wide change that then will lead to, you know, individual outcomes and, your piece about, imposter syndrome in the Harvard Business Review, just, it made me think so much about, what what is, coming from the outside and what is actually coming from inside us that maybe we have internalized.

So, so it's very, you know, very much, we think of imposter syndrome as this individual challenge, but you so clearly laid out for us that. No, no, it's it's actually a systemic issue that we as women in particular, don't need to take on. so I would love to hear you talk about that a bit and how you, how you see the potential for this systems level change to maybe even, make things like imposter syndrome a thing of the past or moot because, you know, women won't look internally, at those types of things.

So. Yeah. Yeah, I love this question. And I think one of the most important things about imposter syndrome is, for me, it's a term that obviously is very loaded. I feel like I was seeing it everywhere, even in the height of the early pandemic, like getting into lockdown. We're trying to like wonder what our future in our lights and our safety will look like.

And people are still sending me, you know, webinars and, and like, you know, emails about how to overcome imposter syndrome. So it felt very like a huge disconnect, like true cognitive dissonance. At the same time, I think it's less about like the actual terminology, whether it's imposter syndrome, whether it's like women's lack of confidence, whether it's like women sabotaging themselves.

And a lot of this narrative that was unfortunately popularized in especially white feminism and especially in corporate white feminism, which focused on like women as individuals falling short, like women don't negotiate or women don't speak up enough, they don't raise their hands for the big projects. Women are really, you know, caught up in, in parenthood and caregiving and, you know, they don't they don't ask for raises enough and all of this sort of shame and blame, which I think very much has done us a disservice because I've met a lot of women who have said, I have thought about it myself and, and even subscribe to this idea of like, oh, I should just be

grateful that I had this opportunity at all. Like, I shouldn't be asking for anything more than just what's in front of me. I should just be glad it happened. And I think we've done a huge disservice by not looking at it, you know, largely as a systemic issue. And one of the things that I started noticing, especially in corporations, but even in some of the consulting work I've done, is how much the men around me were getting that affirmation when they started their careers.

They might have been a little like, oh, like I'm nervous or I haven't. I'm not confident. I'm not going to negotiate my first salary, for example. Like I think of, you know, male peers or male friends in my life, but as they're in the workforce longer, they get affirmed right view, they get told you're doing great work, right?

We look at some of the feedback men get versus women. So a lot of times men get feedback that is really actionable. So even if it's like, you know, getting a raise this year, if you do x, y, z, you will get the raise next year. And for women, that's very much not the case, unfortunately. So what I started seeing as men around me were getting affirmed right.

Men around me were getting opportunities to actually see themselves in leadership, people who looked like them. I started seeing the data that showed that, you know, women, that three quarters of sponsors choose proteges of the same race and gender as them. So if you're getting sponsored for those big opportunities and most of the time you were a white man getting sponsored for those big opportunities.

So once you start to unpack some of the systemic issues at play, it becomes really hard to to keep saying or keep believing that it is an internal issue that you are struggling with. And I think that was for me, why? You know, why. Jodi and Berhe and I really wanted to question this narrative of like, it's an individual issue.

It's it's only if women did this they would be able to get ahead. And I think, again, the data is so conflicting. I have literally talked to women and I'm sure you can think of examples. I can certainly think of examples where often in the same instance I would be called too confident or bossy, aggressive and not confident enough.

Like literally, you know, that's piece of conflicting feedback. It really ties into a lot of the research we've seen in academia around gender, around, you know, the narrow tightrope and being respected versus being liked. I mean, how then how do you win, right? How do you win until you stop taking it on as an internal burden? You cannot win.

And that is why for me, I always encourage leaders, and especially leaders who have come from historically underestimated communities. We need to widen the table. We need to show different styles of leadership. We need to show that someone who pounds their office, especially a woman, a woman who comes her office or is just her personality, is such that her leadership style is to be, you know, strong, commanding, domineering, etc. is just as acceptable as someone who identifies as an introvert who's really quiet, who leads sort of in a different way.

And I think we still have a long way to go to see so many more different leadership styles, which will allow more of us to feel like we can show up as our authentic selves in the workplace. yes. Yes. That, you know, it's that consistent and continual. what else should I be doing? What do I need to change?

Shift? You know, that I think, you know, so many of the women in my life, I hear them say that even. And it's true. Even when we know better, we're still not immune to it. You know, I noticed that still happening a lot with, women who are people who know this isn't actually about me. You know, this is this.

This is, societal. I'm absorbing this. But then we we take that on and go, well, I still how do I expel that? And then we own the shame around. I'm not able to expel that. So there must be something wrong with me. Right. that that could be a whole other, conversation. But I wonder, what what do you think this shift in, you know, externalizing this?

Like, what does that mean for the future of work? that is such a good question. And I, I am someone who really tries to do away with the sort of blame and shame approach to to things. And I, of course, fall prey to a lot of the ways that I have been conditioned, even when I know better.

and I think, I think so much of that is being human. It's that awareness that, hey, like this, I was conditioned this way. I'm falling prey to these biases that I was conditioned with or these ideas. I mean, you know, especially when I talk about gender inequity. Again, I don't have to tell you this, but I always I always share that gender inequity isn't necessarily men doing inequity to women.

A lot of times, the systemic approach, I mean, some of the most challenging and concerning examples of gender bias I've seen in the workplace has been has been from women upholding very patriarchal, very gender biased norms against other women. So I think we need to be careful when when like sometimes the narrative. And unfortunately, I think some of the backlash is the idea of like we're we're separating people out into groups, we're creating more divisions rather than understanding that a systemic, you know, a systemic biases impact everyone regardless of their identity.

So I think there's some part of it which is that, I think the other part for me, when I, when I think of sort of the future of work is it's so clear to me that when you're able to create cultures of belonging, when you are able to create a workplace where people feel like they can truly be who they are, and, you know, and this is not me saying, like, every workplace has to be like a family where everyone over shares and there's like all this.

I mean, that is literally the opposite of what I'm trying to share. But it's where someone who, if they've always, you know, I've talked to women who have removed, for example, that hijab before they go to the workplace, before they go to their office and then come back and put it back on. I'm talking about examples like that where truly people have felt and so many of us have been people.

I remember, there's there's this wonderful woman I met, and as a thank you gift, I gave her a water bottle with her name. And, you know, I don't want to I don't share her name because it is like my not very common. And I give her a water bottle with with her name on it. And she wrote me a note and she said, I'm in my 50s and I have never had an article of anything with my full real name on it.

I have always shortened it, you know, for for decades in the workplace, people knew me as this other name because I just didn't, you know, I grew up being teased about it, and I kind of shared that I always, I made this decision that I would never go by my full name, and it just meant so much to receive that message.

And she was like, from now on, I will go, as you know, like I've been trying really hard to reclaim my full name outside, you know, outside the outside, my home. And I think these examples of people being able to really be their full, authentic selves is the type of future of work that I really want us to see, because what starts happening and again, in in the book and the work I've done, again, it gives permission not only to women of color or women or people who are LGBTQ, but truly people at the quote unquote, top of the hierarchy, which, you know, again, the research is also clear on the fact that, unfortunately, toxic

masculinity, patriarchy, racism doesn't just impact the people who have been disenfranchized by it, but also people who are supposedly supposed to benefit from this. unfortunately, it harms everyone. And so to hear from, you know, white men who say to me, hey, I identify as an introvert. I don't like speaking up in meetings. And, you know, being so commanding and domineering, it's expected of the workplace that I work at.

And since we've sort of been working on inclusion much more thoughtfully and intentionally, I feel like I can bring my more quiet, more introverted self to meetings and to my leadership style. So again, this I do like. Truly, everyone benefits if we create an environment where people don't feel like they have to change themselves to succeed there. it's, you know, that's the future of work that I envision.

Oh, I, I hope we together can manifest that. And I see two of your work is doing it. I mean, for sure that, you know, we we often say, at Catalyst that, you know, this work is, is about being human next to each other. It's as simple and as complicated as that. what what would it look like for each of us to be able to bring our full humanity into the workplace and for it to be honored?

I mean, that's what, your work is helping folks do. And it mean it means the world. we, we know that you have a new book that you're working on, and if you're able to talk about it much yet. So we can maybe if we have to cut the recording, we can. But I'm curious if you are able to share.

we would love for the Catalyst community to know what you are up to next. well, thank you so much, Aaron. and truly, I, I know that as we continue to manifest this together, like this work really takes intention and it's not something that happens overnight. And in fact, inspired by this book, I have been doing research into a lot of systems of oppression.

And I think kind of to bring this full circle, what I realize is like the the road towards like that level of justice and equity is both really long and really painful and fraught. And it feels like that, especially right now as we encounter these attacks. And as I go back and look at, like throughout history, how much progress we've made, that also gives me so much of hope, right?

And sometimes it's easy to forget, like the history, you know, like being a woman in the workplace. And there was a time where, like for many women, there was, you know, there were no restrooms or like, you were called honey and sweetie all the time, and there was just no recourse. And I and and, you know, I, I always say that there is progress.

It feels really slow. And the road ahead is so long. But when you look back, you also, you know, we have to take stock of the gains we've made. and so my next book is called compete. and it's really about dismantling the sort of competition mindset that I think most of us in a capitalist society have really been conditioned with.

Right. Like this idea, like zero sum thinking, sharp elbows out. I certainly look at the history of like the queen bee myth and the queen bee syndrome of like this woman in leadership who, you know, is really dominating and has no, you know, doesn't doesn't believe in the sisterhood and making sure that other people and other women rise with them can often be harder on women that they manage and work with and the men they they manage and work with.

So, I, you know, looking at all of that and saying like, hey, we need a different way, we need us, we need a workplace culture and society where we collaborate, where we let go of the scarcity mindset and truly believe in and practice abundance and more than anything, of philosophy and way of life, where we stop approaching everything with competition.

And again, it takes in tension, right? Because from grades school, from kindergarten, we have been conditioned to like compete for the grade, compete for like the person who ran the fastest to, you know, all throughout school, all throughout our academic career and then certainly in the workplace and in society. And for me, so much of this is like if we are truly going to rise, if we're truly going to create this future where everyone wins, we need to stop believing and stop only focusing on the gains that we can make as individuals or just our own community.

Oh my gosh, I can't wait to read your book. Thank you. Like such a, a paradigm shift for the way we think about not only the workplace, but I mean society overall. Right. and I can I can think of times even in, you know, what I would consider a fairly inclusive of workspaces, being told by, you know, bosses like, oh, you know, watch out, watch out for her kind of thing.

And thinking, you know, 20 years ago, that doesn't seem right to me. you know, and it's certainly at odds with my own personal ethos and, you know, empathy, thinking that that doesn't ring true to me, but that's what is expected in order to, you know, climb the ranks. so we so need your insight on this and excited to read your book.

Thank you. I mean, for me, I'd say so much of this new I think, you know, really forward looking is to say, like a lot of what we were conditioned with, a lot of the norms, we were told about the workplace, about society. Don't hold true anymore. It's so it's so interesting. Like just to just to end on this anecdote, this morning, my seven year old was like, mom, what's smoking?

Right? And that's like explaining to him like smoking. And then he's like, yeah, but like you're not allowed to smoke in restaurants. You know, like there's these signs everywhere where it says you can't smoke hundred and 50ft, whatever it is. And I was like, well, when I grew up and certainly grew up growing up in Singapore, like there were restaurants you could smoke inside that were like, you could smoke right outside the airport, like sometimes even inside there were smoking rooms in which they still are.

And so it's like just because we've done things a certain way, now that we know better, we don't have to continue in that way. Right. And I and I always say that it's it's this idea like, oh, but like we can't change old habits. And for me, I say, no, we absolutely can. Whether it's inclusion, whether it's competition, whether it's creating a more abundant and, you know, a society where, where again, everyone can thrive.

It's we the opportunity is there, but we have to imagine it. I love that. It makes me think of, Ashley Ford, the author often says, which is, you know, just because something is common does not make it normal. And there's so many behaviors or, you know, things that we've kind of normalized in a workplace just because they're common.

But I love that you're you're encouraging us to rethink that table. No, no. What if we replace those those norms and common things with something that looks different and so excited to read the book. And I have one final question. I know we're probably over time, but, we, you know, in honor of the title of this podcast, which is it's named after, Catalyst founder Felicia Schwartz, one of her books, breaking with tradition.

Can you think of a time where you broke with tradition? I mean, I think everything in my life, honestly, is about breaking with tradition. I, I the reason what drew me to Catalyst work more than a decade ago, especially when I was a full time business journalist. So even two decades ago, was the the reality that, you know, I had not seen women who looked like me, who worked outside the home for who were allowed to in our culture, in our society, especially, pursue corporate careers, ones where they could really name and live up to their ambition.

And, so for me, you know, I always think to myself, like, how did I get so lucky? I lived this dream that like, I can, you know, I can choose what I want to do. I can choose how to spend my time. I can have agency over my money, over my body. I mean, what you know, what a gift and what a way to break with tradition.

Of course it comes with fears and questions and you know, which I certainly have many of. But, I feel so, so lucky to break with tradition this way. It's amazing. Well, we're grateful that you are. It's really helping so many other people do the same thing and, see that, you know what? What's possible not only for us, but for, the workplace and sort of our, our overall collective being.

So thank you so much, Erin, and thank you to you. And thank you to Catalyst for all you do. It really, it means a lot to, I think to make scene and make heard a lot of what we've had to keep unseen and unheard and, and keep silenced for so long. So thank you. Oh, likewise means a lot.