In This Episode:

What does it look like to lead with courage in an era of backlash? Jeff Melnyk and Carol Kondo revisit past conversations that still resonate - from DEI and social justice to war, Pride, and legacy. This episode challenges leaders to stop sitting on the sidelines and start showing up.

Podcasts Featured:

The role of leadership in social justice: 3 actionable insights

Pride was a riot: Creating social change from within

Ukraine and social crises: How do business leaders respond

Referenced Articles:

Why Corporate America Is Running From DEI – Psychology Today

Pride events face budget shortfalls – AP News

Performative Allyship: What It Is and Why It Hurts – Diversity Certification

Ukraine Business Initiative – U.S. Chamber of Commerce

To learn more about Within People and the work we do click here

Hi everyone.

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I'm Jeff Melnyk and welcome back.

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Over the past few years on this

podcast, we've had some honest

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conversations about what it means

to lead a 21st century business that

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puts people first from global crisis

to social justice, from corporate

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missteps to personal convictions.

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We've explored what leadership really

looks like when it's put to the test.

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One theme has come up again and again.

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What do you stand for?

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This month we've pulled together a few

moments from the re-imagining work from

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within Archive that speak directly to

that question you'll hear from me and

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fellow within People partner Carol Condo.

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As we reflect on the choices leaders

make and how those choices reveal

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who we are, these segments span a

few years, but they're connected

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by a thread of conviction, whether

we're talking about DEI and social

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justice, the war in Ukraine, or

Pride Month one thing is clear.

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Business plays a role in social

change and more than ever, leaders

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cannot sit on the sidelines.

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My hope is that this collection

gives you something to reflect on.

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So we're gonna look at what stops leaders

from taking action, and that's really

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relevant in today's current climate,

where committing to DEI appears to

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come with consequences, how to respond

rather than react to situations that

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impact on the lives of your people.

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Why marginalized communities matter

to your business and how the decisions

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you make today, especially those

that go against the tie to the status

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quo, form your legacy as a leader.

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Alright, buckle up.

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Let's dive in.

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Last year I sat down with Carol to talk

about leadership and social justice.

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At the time, it felt like

DEI was losing momentum.

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Fast forward to today and DEI has become

a concept that large corporations are

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turning their back on, like Target,

meta, IBM, Verizon, Deloitte, BlackRock.

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The list goes on and on.

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All who made public statements in the

wake of the murder of George Floyd

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and now distance themselves from

commitments to changing their business.

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Carol gets right to the heart of

something that many leaders face.

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Fear, the fear of saying the wrong

thing, a backlash of being canceled,

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but also the deeper fear that more

personal one, that if we take a

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stand, it might cost us something.

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According to the 2025 Edelman Trust

Barometer, 60% of consumers globally

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expect CEOs and companies to take a

stand on social and political issues,

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and that's up from 54% in 2024.

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But, but Carroll reminds us that the real

leadership isn't about playing it safe.

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It's about having the courage to

speak up even when it's uncomfortable,

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even when there's risk involved.

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Take a listen.

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Carol Kondo: What's happening outside

work is happening to real people

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and we can't expect things that are

happening to real people outside work,

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not to affect the people inside work.

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The organizations are service.

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Saying, people and businesses

are about people, whether they're

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producing products, the products

are to be consumed by people.

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So nowadays it's difficult

to say, I run an organization

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and I will not take a stand.

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So whatever it is that I'm

selling is impacting or I'm

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giving it to somebody else.

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So what is it that business are willing

to stand for that affects people?

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And how possible is it for us to

say whatever you are feeling and.

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Seeing outside, keep it out there.

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When you come into the business

place, DERO, and you come in as

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our employee only, we want you in

the purest form of an employee.

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Whatever you are feeling should

just be left out there and

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should not come in with you.

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And I think that's an impossible

expectation because if the issue's outside

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we're making these people happy, we would

say to them, oh, bring your joy, you know,

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whatever is making you happy outside.

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Let it inspire the workplace.

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So why are we then.

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Saying to them, what's affecting your

outside mustn't affect the workplace?

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Let's bring it in and have

a conversation about it.

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What's happening?

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Let's talk about that.

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Jeff Melnyk: So it's quite difficult

for leaders to to hold that, don't they?

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Because they want the joy, right?

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They want employee satisfaction.

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They want employee happiness.

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And now suddenly people are unhappy.

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They're unhappy outside work, they're

unhappy with the situation in society.

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They're bringing that

unhappiness into the business.

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What's going on in leaders today?

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Why can't they hold that ability to see

that this is possibly something that's

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come inside their business and that that

maybe there even is a positive aspect?

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Carol Kondo: Well, Jeff, I

think it's the oldest thing.

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I think that is exhausted in humanity.

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Fear, I.

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These topics, to be honest

with you, are huge topics.

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We're talking of things like Black Lives

Matter, our current situation right

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now, you know, or with the Israeli Wars.

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Those are huge topics and

they're scary topics because you

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are scared of being canceled.

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You're scared of saying the wrong.

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Thing you're scared of being

accused of being a co-conspirator

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later on in history.

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You don't want to go down in history as

being that organization that supported

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that particular way of being, you know?

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All of us innately want to be seen and

regarded as good people, and the truth

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is, we will rather protect our images.

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Most of the time, we condone

bad things because of our fear.

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So can we overcome our fear

and really face reality with

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what is happening around us?

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Jeff Melnyk: I wanna take

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The war in Ukraine had just

begun as a Ukrainian Canadian.

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I remember the heaviness, the

horror of seeing Russian tanks

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move further into the country.

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The concern for the amazing people I had

met only a few years ago when I visited

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to see the home of my great-grandparents.

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This global crisis like many others

like Israel and Gaza, where people are

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divided on what is right and what is

wrong, leaves leaders unsure of how to

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respond or if they should respond at all.

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In this moment, I reflected on the

emotional weight people carry during

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times of crisis in our communities from

Black Lives Matter to COVID and what it

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really looks like for leaders to meet that

moment, not with polished statements or

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quick reaction, but by listening first.

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Here's that reflection.

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I think we should look at them

through the lens of Ukraine.

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'cause that's what's happening right now.

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It's very present.

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But I think there's a bit of a

reminder here for leaders of the.

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Of this almost sequence that they can go

through when something like this happens.

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I wanna draw on Black Lives Matter and

Covid as a bit of a connection to that.

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We've lived through those really recently.

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They're very important.

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I think they really shone a light on

what business should and shouldn't do.

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And I, I wanna use the word, shouldn't,

shouldn't with care here, because I'm not

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telling anyone ever you should do that.

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But I think there's kind of a.

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Maybe do that as helpful . So

I think whenever anything I.

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Like this happens listen

for leaders, just to stop.

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The tendency for leaders is to

rush to solve and step into action.

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They might even be having a lot of

pressure from people around them, or

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even they feel like I need to act right.

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But really if we just stop to

listen to people first checking

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in, how are they feeling?

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What do they need right now?

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And just creating that space to really.

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Acknowledge and understand

the emotional impact and the

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heaviness of what's going on.

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And I think anQ really positioned that

well at the beginning around this is

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happening, people are feeling this, so

rather than rushing into solution, can

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we just make the space to understand it?

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And, and we saw that,

how important that was.

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With Black Lives Matter, I think a lot

of leaders rushed into having to solve

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something or demonstrate something, and

they left behind the people who are mostly

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being impacted, be it their black team

members who they didn't check in with or

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didn't ask what they needed right now.

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And the impact of that is that it's then.

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Really all about the business or the

leader rather than those that are

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actually feeling the stress of the moment.

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Yeah.

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And, and Anique, what you said about.

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It's hard to perform at work when

I can't connect into what's going

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on around me is really critical.

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And I think we saw that with Covid.

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We saw that with Black Lives Matter,

and I think this is something that

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we're gonna have to just see ongoing.

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Now.

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Can leaders just take the time

to to, to create the space?

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June is pride month, and for several

years we've hosted a conversation about

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how businesses can truly demonstrate

their support, not by turning their

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logo into a rainbow, but by actually

demonstrating their commitment to

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equality in the workplace by changing

how their business operates to be

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more inclusive and equitable for all.

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The backlash against the L-G-B-T-Q

community continues to intensify.

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This year, 575 anti L-G-B-T-Q bills have

been introduced in the United States,

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many as an attempted erasure of trans

people by removing access to healthcare,

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a ban on serving in the military,

restricting how they play sports, and

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dictating which bathrooms they can use.

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A recent study by Gravity Research

showed that 40% of corporations in

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the US, including MasterCard, Citi,

Pepsi, Nissan, PricewaterhouseCoopers,

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all who have in the past turned their

logos, a lovely shade of Rainbow, have

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reduced their support of Pride events.

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This year, six in 10 of those companies

cite the current administration

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is the top reason for this change.

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I opened our Pride episode of re-Imagining

Work from Within with some reflections

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on why this fight matters for business

and why allyship isn't enough.

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It's time for business

leaders to become accomplices.

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This is about showing up.

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It's about what we're willing to say risk

and do, especially when it's unpopular.

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I.

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Here's that opening.

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It's June, which means it's Pride

Month in most places around the world.

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Last year we shared an episode

discussing Pride as a riot, why

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business should care about pride,

and how to create a riot of your own.

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And since what we offer to listeners is

even more relevant right now, we thought

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we'd bring the episode back again.

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The G B T Q fight for

equality is everyone's fight.

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A basic principle of equality is that

if one group is not free, no one is,

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the rights could be taken away from

any group of people at any time.

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This year we're seeing the usual

attempts at corporate allyship.

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And the backlash against businesses

supporting Pride has intensified with

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companies like Budweiser and Target

backing down from their commitments

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because of attacks by pressure groups

and threats to their employees.

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But all of this is with a backdrop

of increasing intolerance.

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So let's just paint a picture to

give everyone a bit of the context

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of where we are now here in 2023

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in the last year, schools

are being pressured to remove

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books from libraries for fear.

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They may coerce children to

becoming homosexual or transgender.

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This growing censorship movement has

taken place in 138 school districts and

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32 states impacting 4 million students.

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Drag performances are being banned.

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In Tennessee Republican senator

Jack Johnson said that parents can

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now take their kids to a public or

private show and not be blindsided

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by a sexualized performance.

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This week in Canada, an adult

verbally attacked a nine-year-old

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child participating in a track and

field event because he believed the

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child was transgender and called

her parents groomers and pedophiles.

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Meanwhile, uganda has legislated

the death penalty for homosexuals.

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This legislation comes after years of

lobbying from American Christian groups.

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Anyone found guilty of promoting

homosexuality in the country could

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face up to 20 years in prison or death.

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Uganda is now one of 11 countries

where being gay can be punishable

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by death, and 67 countries have

national laws criminalizing same sex

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relations between consenting adults.

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But why does this matter for business?

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Well, it matters even more than ever.

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As a marginalized group,

LGBTQ people are not visible.

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Maybe like your Black or Asian employees

or some of your disabled employees,

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you cannot always see them, but they're

there and they need to know that

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they belong so that they can be free

to be themselves without judgment.

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If your employees are not gay, they

may be the parents of LGBTQ children.

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They need to know that where they

work is an ally to them and has their

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back, that their children can grow up

unafraid of the world, that their kids

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who may be gay, lesbian, or transgender

are accepted, loved, and safe.

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A next generation of kids who may

one day soon come to work in your

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business, but more than ever, the

LGBTQ community does not need allies.

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We need accomplices.

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To fight alongside us to stop the

injustice that persists and is growing

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in our governments and to refuse to

tolerate any intolerance towards any

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human being for simply being who they are.

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This podcast looks at the shift away

from rainbow logos and sponsored pride

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floats to real action you can take.

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I hope it inspires you to think a

little bit differently about not

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only pride, but how your business

can create social change from within.

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While some turn their backs on commitments

to diversity, equity, and inclusion,

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as governments attempt to punish those

who stand for social justice, and

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as the world becomes more uncertain

and volatile, what do leaders do?

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As a business leader,

you have a privilege.

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Your business is a system With

a distinct culture, you have the

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power to ensure your people belong.

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And as your people thrive, you impact

the communities you operate in.

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So while you might think that

you're powerless to create change,

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you can influence how work works.

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Here's a moment from our conversation

where I lay out what is needed and what

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it means to use your system for change.

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Can you stand up as a leader in

front of your business and say, this

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is why we are not willing to defund

politicians who will actively seek

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to discriminate in our communities.

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And I think we saw the

backlash with Disney.

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Yeah.

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Where they wouldn't withdraw their

support of the, don't say gay bill.

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And then the bill passed

and then, oh, wait a second.

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Actually we do.

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Mm-hmm.

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Um, a little bit too late there, Mickey.

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But the backlash internally and.

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Externally for, for Disney

fans was was very real.

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And of course now Disney gets

the backlash from the Florida

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politicians, but who will win?

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Mickey or Ron,

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Well, I've, I've sort of alluded

to it already with my, let's

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go with the defunding option.

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I mean, I think that's the far end of

the scale, obviously, the, like, how do

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you listen to people understand the, the

issues in the community that is important?

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Like you said, this is a time for space,

so how do we give space for those stories?

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How do we actually hear

and understand them?

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I think one thing that I'd love to

highlight is, I, I think it's time that

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if you have a policy in your business

that is equitable and inclusive, say

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for example, adoption leave for same-sex

parents or healthcare provided at the

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fullest extent of your insurance, that

might be quite different to what the state

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would provide, say for H I V medication

or something like that, that really

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understands the needs of the community.

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How are you extending that?

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To everyone in your global workforce.

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So if you've got employees in America,

and I'm just gonna be bold here, and you

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have operations in Saudi Arabia, how are

you going to bring that level of equity

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and understanding to your employees there?

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And that's edgy.

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Because that's going against

the cultural norms of what's

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happening in your business.

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And the places that you operate.

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But I'm gonna plant a flag there

and say, you own your system leader.

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So if you believe in equity, then

that has to go across the board.

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It can't just be, oh, you live in

California, so it must be more liberal,

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so we're gonna give you more things.

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. . Yeah, so just extending it because

I think as companies get more global

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and also as the workforce gets more

global, so we can work from anywhere.

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Now if you live and work in certain

places, not if you work for Elon.

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More on that maybe later.

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Are we extending that same understanding

of equity across our business?

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Are we, are we packaging it up

in more liberal places so that we

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can attract the people who might

be living more in those zones?

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and this is always the crux, right?

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It's always the thing is like, Ooh,

maybe we don't wanna stick our heads

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too above the parapet because we're

gonna have people out there that

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aren't gonna like what we stand for.

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Well, you don't stand for it unless

you're standing on the Parapet

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bouncing up and down and saying,

this is what we stand for.

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I wanna return to Carol's

wisdom one more time.

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In this final clip, she offers a

powerful reminder that leadership isn't

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just about what we say or do today.

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It's about the impact those choices

will have in the years to come.

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What are we building that

will still matter in 30 years?

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What kind of legacy are we leaving behind?

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so should leaders feel pressure to change?

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Carol Kondo: That's a

very interesting one.

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Should must.

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Hey, we used to call them modal

words, isn't it in English?

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Should must.

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There's an obligation here

from somebody who's asking

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somebody else to do something.

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Yeah.

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Is this really the right thing to do?

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I think that's a very fundamental

question that businesses don't ask

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themselves anymore before we take a side.

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I think one of the most important

questions that we forget to ask

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ourselves, even as individuals who lead

people, is this the right thing to do?

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We forget to ask ourselves that

many a time and before you should,

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must can, and any other mode of verb

you want to use, maybe ask yourself

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whether that is the right thing to do.

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Jeff Melnyk: I love that.

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And also to think deeply about

the consequences beyond it.

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Get strategic, go to 30,000 feet that

one thing that we're being told we

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must, should have to do today, may not

be in the best interest of everyone

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in the long term, and it really is.

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The executive's job to look at

that highest level and think,

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what are the impacts for all of

our stakeholders on this change?

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Not just that one thing that may seem

like a bandaid quick fix solution.

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Right now.

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Carol Kondo: It is.

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And I wonder 30 years from today

whether some of these things that

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we're really advocating for, we really

feel the same way about them and

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our will, our opinions be as strong.

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And if we are building

organizations, are we building

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organizations that we want to last?

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We'll have legacies that are way beyond

our time and our tenures as leaders.

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What is our thinking around all that?

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That should inform some of the

decisions that we are making and not

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just think up to the tip of our noses?

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Jeff Melnyk: I think that's a

beautiful invitation, Carol.

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I think that is the thing.

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Just when you said that, I thought.

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What a wonderful space of curiosity

for a leader to actually step into,

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is this going to make the change?

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If I stand here today, 30

years into the future, will I

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have stood by that decision?

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Because I felt that was the thing

that really made the difference.

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And I look around today and

see that some of the things

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that people are doing is not.

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To longstanding change, and I think

it takes courage and conviction for a

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leader to say, that thing that you're

asking me to do that you think I should

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and must do is not going to create

a change you wanna see in the world.

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Thank you.

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We will take this course

of action instead.

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Thanks for listening.

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Leadership isn't about having all

the answers, but it is about making

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choices and choosing to stand for

something even when it's uncomfortable.

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As a leader, I know I don't

always get things right.

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I've tried to act in integrity with

the purpose and values of our business.

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They're our internal compass,

helping us to navigate uncertainty.

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Trying to build a business in the

21st century isn't easy sometimes.

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Coming back to what you

stand for is enough.

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If this episode sparked something

in you, we'd love to hear it,

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reach out, share it, or start a

conversation in your own workplace.

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That's how this work spreads from within.

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This episode included clips from the

role of leadership in social justice.

367

Its reaction, insights, pride was

a riot, creating social change from

368

within and Ukraine and social crisis.

369

How do business leaders respond?

370

And you can find all of those

wherever you're listening to podcasts.

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But if you want more conversations

like this, tune into our podcast for

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more episodes on what's happening

in the culture and leadership space.

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What's on the mind of leaders

committed to change in our

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community and other future of work?

375

Content you crave.

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Re-Imagining work from Within is

available wherever you listen to podcasts.