Episode Overview

In this special episode recorded live at the Gather · Connect · Grow conference hosted by Short-Term Rentals Asia in Bangkok, Justin Sun sits down with founders, operators, and technology leaders shaping the short-term rental industry across Asia.

Through a series of short conversations recorded during the conference, guests share perspectives on technology adoption, hospitality culture, regulation, luxury travel, and the future of short-term rentals in the region.

Episode Description

This episode was recorded live at the inaugural Gather · Connect · Grow conference hosted by Short-Term Rentals Asia (STRA) in Bangkok.

Between moderating a panel and attending sessions, Justin Sun sat down with founders, operators, and technology leaders across the short-term rental ecosystem to capture their perspectives on where the industry in Asia stands today — and where it may be heading next.

Rather than one long interview, this episode brings together a series of short conversations recorded throughout the conference, offering a snapshot of the ecosystem directly from the people building it.

Topics explored in this episode include:

• How short-term rentals in Asia differ from Western markets

• The role of AI, automation, and property management systems in scaling operations

• Why hospitality culture and service remain critical in luxury villa markets

• Regulation and licensing challenges in markets like Bali and Thailand

• The growing importance of brand, storytelling, and experience in luxury travel

• What founders and operators are bullish — and cautious — about for the future

Guests featured in this episode include:

1. Idan Carmi — Chief Growth Officer, Boom PMS
2. Adhiguna — CEO, The Kayon Hotels & Resorts (Bali)
3. Frazer King — Founder & CEO, EvryStay
4. Naree Suneta — President, Thailand Hostel Association
5. Cee Charuchinda — Luxury brand strategist and connector
6. Kadek Adnyana — Bali Villa Rental Management Association
7. Lorenzo Lella — Octorate PMS
8. Jan Sahagun — Founder, STR Tech Report
9. Jake — Founder, Erudite VR

Together, these conversations offer a real-time look at the short-term rental ecosystem in Asia, from operators on the ground to the technology and leadership shaping its next phase of growth.

⏱️ Timestamps

(00:33) Intro — Live from STRA Bangkok and the inaugural Gather · Connect · Grow conference hosted by Short-Term Rentals Asia

(02:22) Idan Carmi (Boom PMS) — Building an AI-native PMS from real operator pain points and why cheap labor in Asia can slow tech adoption

(17:46) Adhiguna (The Kayon Hotels & Resorts, Bali) — Bali’s villa oversupply, new regulation crackdown, and the balance between STRs and hotels

(28:53) Frazer King (EvryStay) — AI guest guides, concierge recommendations, and how local experiences can drive ancillary revenue

(37:37) Naree Suneta (Thailand Hostel Association) — What “short-term rentals” mean in Thailand and how hostels shape local travel culture

(53:27) Cee (Luxury strategist) — Luxury travel in Asia, UHNW expectations, and why privacy and storytelling define premium hospitality

(1:09:39) Kadek Adnyana (Bali Villa Rental Management Association) — Protecting Bali’s culture, managing foreign investment, and sustaining local operators

(1:21:01) Lorenzo Lella (Octorate PMS) — OTA fragmentation, tech stacks, and strategies for operators navigating distribution

(1:33:06) Jan Sahagun (STR Tech Report) — The global STR tech ecosystem and how AI is reshaping property management tools

(1:45:00) Jake (Erudite VR) — Revenue management, pricing strategies in Bali, and why human judgment still matters in dynamic pricing

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If you know a hotelier, villa operator, designer, or founder shaping hospitality in Asia, feel free to reach out or make an introduction.

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving a rating or review — it helps more listeners discover the show.

Today's episode is a special one. It was recorded live at the inaugural Gather Connect Grow Conference hosted by the Short-Term Rental Asia Association in Bangkok on February 11th, where operators, founders, and technology leaders from across Asia came together to talk about the future of short-term rentals in the region.

Now, during the conference, I had the privilege to moderate a fireside conversation on where the industry is heading. And in between sessions,

I also sat down with a number of speakers and founders for short conversations about what's really happening on the ground across Asia's short-term rental ecosystem.

Now, quick note before we start, apologies for the slight delay getting this episode out. It took a little longer than expected to pull everything together after the conference, but I'm really excited to finally share these conversations.

In this episode, you'll hear perspectives from leaders across different parts of the ecosystem, including

Idan Carmi Chief Growth Officer at Boom PMS Adiguna, from the Kayon Hotels and Resorts in Bali Frazer King, from Everystay Naree Sunetta, President of the Thailand Hostel Association Cee, a Luxury Advisor and Consultant

Kadek from the Bali Villa Rental Management Association, Lorenzo Lella, founder of Octa...

The president of the Bali Villa Rental Management Association.

Lorenzo Lella, of Octrate PMS. Jan Seigun, founder of STR Tech Report. And Jake, founder from Erudite VR.

Rather than one long interview, this episode brings together a series of short conversations recorded right there at the conference, touching on everything from technology and operations to hospitality culture, regulation, and where the short-term rental industry in Asia may be heading next.

Think of it as a snapshot of the ecosystem right now from the people actively building it. So with that, let's get into it.

Idan, so nice to meet you and thank you so much for hanging out with me at the Curious Concierge Podcast. Idan is the founder and chief growth officer at Boom PMS. Why don't you tell us a little bit more about, your PMS and what you do.

Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. Great atmosphere here in Thailand and in the conference. And thank you for Keith for being able to gather us all in this place. Wonderful weather in Bangkok. I was coming all the way from Tel Aviv, Israel. And I'm representing a company named BOOM. We are the first AI-based PMS, basically. You see, the thing is that many people today integrate PMS into their lives or adding some

add-on products that are AI based into their tech stack. Our product is an AI native product. Its entire core, its entire DNA is based within AI. And that's makes us basically different. Our journey starts not as a tech adventure. We didn't just realize that is an opportunity in the market. We were actually starting and growing a property management company in Miami.

And I was there from day one and we were able to prove to 300 listings. And the thing is that when you participate in such an operation, such a company, in hospitality, which is something that you are super inspired about and enthusiast about, you get to experience many challenges and many pains in your day-to-day life. I was gifted and lucky enough to work with the company founder, back in the days, you know, when

coding was a thing that not everyone was able to produce. We were just sitting, realizing things, and developing our own solutions. So in a way, we were in a laboratory finding the solutions for our own problems. So not being able to find the right hire to handle the right way how to manage and to respond to all the reviews that we're receiving.

and being able to analyze all the bad and negatives anecdotes that we're getting from the reviews. So we were just, okay, let's develop the product for it. And let's develop a product for the unified inbox so we will be able to communicate all of our guests without moving from our PMS and then to the locks product and copy the passwords and then another Excel sheet to take the WiFi password I'm talking with you years ago. Those things weren't available.

So we decided to develop them on our own. And around three years ago, we realized that we have a strong foundation of technology. And we've realized that the tech space with Israelis, the Israeli entrepreneurship environment is really into tech. So we decided to take the next step into the technology world and to ditch a little bit the hospitality.

highly involved in hospitality, but basically we're no longer property managers these days. So this is our route. That's the way we did our journey. Yeah.

Yeah. And I think what's really beautiful about this is that you built something to resolve your own pain point initially and realize that it could be shared and used across the industry. And I think a lot of large property management companies tend to actually build their own PMS and it stays internal. And, you know, I'm sure there there's added value of it was shared, but it's exciting to see how this product has taken shape outside of your own property management company. I know you mentioned you

have kind of left and ditched the hospitality scene, but this is a very unique industry. So I'm really curious what initially drew you in. Growing a 300 unit property management company is no feat. So I'm curious, know, what really brought you and inspired you to be in this space?

You know, I knew this question will come and you are super enthusiast about it. And where I'm coming from, life just happens. You know, if you would tell me 10 years ago that I will find myself so heavily invested in the hospitality industry, I'll tell you that you're probably dreaming or hallucinating like the AI sometimes. But reality took its place and entrepreneurship

made me to meet more people and more people. And one day there was an opportunity to participate in this company that is becoming and evolving. I can tell you that the CEO of the company, basically, he was a relator. And he met this guy trying to sell his property. And it was a complicated property to sell. And he just told him, you know, I heard that some people are just posting their listings on Airbnb. And it works. Maybe you should try.

Three months later, we already have five listings. And that's the very beginning, right? So immediately we became a team and grew up things. So if that answers your question in a way, great. I can tell you about myself that I like hospitality. I like friendship. I like those connections. I used to have my own coffee shop. So hospitality, it's not just

in a hotel or you know it's something about you about the personality and trying to make people to enjoy, to have fun. It can be in anything.

I mean, it is a service culture and you're always providing for others. I mean, the fact that you were in the FMB industry, I think is a signal of why there was so much interest in trying to build a business. Yes, I think there was profit and there's tech part of all of this that was glitz and glamour, but it sounds like you've always kind of been in this industry. so, Boom! PMS really focuses on the element of AI, which is really, really exciting. I've been in the space where I haven't seen a tool like yours before and I think that

is what gets me really excited about the possibilities of what you guys are building and what others could potentially build in this space. But since we're talking about AI, I would love to focus a little bit on scale. You work with a lot of operators of different sizes. So I'm curious, and especially you having grown your own property management company to 300 units, what are some good advice that you can share with operators that might be listening?

on how they start to grow from, you let's say 100 to 500 units, 500 to 1,000, and what is important that they should really consider. Because I think once you cross certain thresholds, it just gets a little bit harder to get to that next level.

I You know, you were talking right now and you reminded me just my latest LinkedIn post. And I was describing over there an experience that I've got in a previous conference in Italy, BRWS, the Big Antonio's event. And I was just walking next to my booth and I was seeing three gorgeous British ladies.

And I was giving them my smile, and they stopped for a demo. at one moment of the demo, they were taking their phone and switching between each other. And then they said, take the baby. And I stopped for a moment over there, and I asked, did you just call the phone a baby? And they said, yes. And I was like, tell me a little bit about it. There's something here.

So they said, yes, this is our CRM. That's how we communicate with our guests. And we need always someone to be available. So we're just passing the phone between us, know, between shifts. And I was looking at them and I was, you know, it was a moment that I felt super happy for them because it shows how it's important for them to give a good experience. But I also looked in their eyes and I realized how miserable they are. I remember what it's like. It doesn't make any sense that you need to

change a piece of device between each other or ⁓ making sure it always have battery. And it's just the wrong way to do it. And we're talking about the 100 properties operations. And if I'm circling back right now to your question, basically, you have to realize that everything that brought you this far, you need to put it on the table and to reopen and to revisit.

if it's the right way. It's fine that you don't touch things that are not broken and if it's working, fine. But it still doesn't...

And that's what was ringing in my bed when I this question.

You're absolutely right, right? It's about letting go of your old systems sometimes. It's so antiquated to almost be like a telephone operator amongst the three ladies in this scenario. And if they can't let the phone go, how can they grow, right? And really unlock that time. And so that's, I think that's a really good point that you're making there. And so, you you also work across multiple markets, Asia versus the Western markets.

What do you think are some differences that you've noticed when you've working with these operators?

It's a good question, and I think it's one of those things that being repetitive during this event and one of the things that we're realizing as a service provider coming here and meeting so many operators. And there are really clear challenges that needs to be questioned. Both of them related to money, obviously. One of them would be

the representation of the lower ADRs in these markets on one hand and on the second hand would be the lower amount of labor cost. And those things just work simultaneously with each other blocking in a way new tools to be able to be penetrating into a market, into a company, and to improve the way they do business because you're getting from our perspective

There is a pricing model that needs to be filled. And you're getting to meet companies that their ADRs are so low. And they realize how much they need to pay to the service provider. And you need to see their eyes. It's a new reaction for me, to be honest. So on that aspect, and from the other aspect, you're actually giving tools for those companies to be able to scale their operation. I'm not saying anyone you need to ⁓

fire and to remove your humans and your head count, no. I'm being able to tell companies that I would be able to do and to utilize 80 % of the shitty, boring stuff, the repetitive, by AI. And to give your humans to be able to be much more fresh and concentrate, to actually deal with the 20 % of things that matters, I see you're accepting with me. And you know exactly what I'm talking about, because you have experience. But then you're again facing the wall.

because the human labor here is so cheap and it's so intuitive sometimes to just take a human to the work and not to investigate.

Given your experience with ⁓ these operators who look at labor costs as a cheaper way to resolve their issues instead of investing in tech tools, Because I think operators tend to need something more tangible, something to...

to feel and resonate with to then really unlock their perspective. Are there things that you tend to share with them or good examples or data points where that they start to realize, okay, I will actually invest in tech?

I think it's a really good question. it takes me to the angle of

You know, at the beginning of this communication between us, I was talking with you about my past and my history, how our journey starts with our experience. But you know, and at the beginning of time, we were so arrogant, if I can call it that way, like getting into companies and thinking, we know this and we know that, and we brought you this product and we know the work frames and here you go, deal with it. And time passed and we've met so many operators and so many companies and the community grew.

And you're getting the chance to meet so many smart individuals and smart companies and smart operators that they teach you things and angles and perspectives that you're not aware of. And so even if you're coming to a person that basically telling you, listen, this investment is high for me, I'm telling to you and everyone else, the amount of knowledge and data and insights you can gain.

from being long, from being part of something that is bigger than you, that's a big thing. It's a big thing. And you have so much to learn and so much to expand, so much to grow yourself. If you just get into this chance, that I believe it's exponential in a way. I you a good end.

Yeah, definitely. No,

it is. I think, you know, having, you know, used Boom, you know, looking at the demos, it's the ability to unlock not only the time for your staff, but as like an operator, as the founder, there's so much analysis and so much digging that you can use AI and kind of as a partner to really unlock certain things that you just aren't thinking about your business, which kind of goes me gets to my next question here is that, you know,

where AI is moving at lightning speed. However, what if AI vanishes tomorrow? What systems should operators really consider and what are some systems that matters the most at its core? You've met with so many operators, you understand the business, but if AI disappears, what are things that folks should really keep going?

I'm torn. I'm torn. Because you know during my time in this industry and you have to believe me I did everything. I cleaned bathrooms, I spoke with guests, I did sales, I know what it's like to deal with owners, I know what it's like the operations, financials, I did it all.

And if you tell me that I need to give up on one of my tools, I'll tell you that it's a problem. So if AI will vanish tomorrow morning and basically everything goes back to the old days, one of the things that I think today would be unreplaceable for me and from my perspective and what I learned is the power of the community. And I believe it's like a more fresh way to answer it.

that kind of a question instead of just talking about the tool or the technology. Because community can take you and can show you things and can put your brain in a mindset that the tools are not getting there. And that's one of the things that I would be most concentrated of. And for sure, if you'll take AI tomorrow from Boehm, we'll still give you the community, great community that we have.

same volumes as you are, maybe in your same market, maybe in other market, and they know things that you don't know, and you should know.

My final question to you is,

Having seen the industry change so quickly and being part of one of the drivers of these changes, what are some things that you're bullish for and bearish on in the coming years for the short-term rental industry?

I wasn't prepared for that question. you know, again, I'm taking a lot of inspiration from this event. And yesterday morning, the opener was by a Gen Z young girl, 17 years old. I have a five years old, and I was saying to myself, my god, it's just 12 years. Things are shifting.

17 years old.

And if there is something that I'm bullish on is, you know, the next generation being able to change the way we see things, we realize things. And, you know, at my age, I mean, I see most of the entrepreneurs around this average. have the older, you have the younger, but around this age. And they're having experience. I mean, you're a Gen Z.

You're experiencing things that we never realized. We wouldn't know if you wouldn't tell. So there are a lot of things to explore and to realize and to investigate. I hope it's good answer.

No, it is. It is. It is. I'm definitely not as young as you think. Unfortunately, I don't think I'm Gen Z. I did get a compliment. Thank you so much. And I think that also just ends our time. But I will say you're absolutely right. I think there's so much more to expect from this younger generation. AI is a great example of the speed that people are building and how the younger folks are adopting that in their day to day at school when it comes to vibe coding. And so

You gotta compliment, you gotta compliment.

you know, it's going to be really exciting to see what happens in the near future. Idan thank you so much for your time. I'm glad to have you on here. It was wonderful. Hope you have a great conference.

Thank Thank you so much. Thank you so much.

Thank you, you too.

Adiguna, nice to see you again. have you back on the podcast. It's been a short while, but excited to catch up.

Nice to see you too, Justin.

Finally, I can see you in person.

CEO of the Kayon Correct. And it's a hospitality brand rooted in Balinese culture and luxury experiences. Remind me, how many hotels do you currently have and what's in the pipeline?

Well at this point we have three hotels and resorts that are already operating and we have another one that is in the progress of pre-opening as well. So we are aiming to have a soft opening for our latest resort, the Kayan Ganga Resort in Karangasam somewhere in August but still in the progress and it's targeted for soft opening first.

That's wonderful. And so for maybe folks that are listening, when do you actually start booking regular guests versus soft opening? If I'm not mistaken, soft opening is usually that trial period, maybe inviting some friends and family to go through that whole process, making sure the staff and the guest flow really works.

Correct. Well, we are aiming for a soft opening in August, but we are not going to hold back too long because we are very much confident with our operations. Well, the resort itself has been built by the owner in which they already experience in building two of them previously and renovating another one. And we have a solid team which very and highly experienced and in contact as such.

Okay, that's fantastic. And I think you mentioned to me a little earlier as well that I'm actually really curious to hear what you're most excited about. But from our conversation, I'm really excited about seeing these villas that actually have two pools you had mentioned, right?

Well, from this new property, we have two tiers of pool and I think one of the most interesting part of this new project is that we are the pioneers in that area. So, East of Bali or particularly in East Karangasum is not being well explored yet, as I mentioned as well in my presentation today at STRA, is that people tend to invest in a high trend area like in Canggu or South Bali or somewhere in, you know,

close to Canggu like Pererenan and Samabe However, that's not really a healthy investment because the land size is already at peak. The trend is perhaps going to decline.

We also have a restaurant and spa in that area, which we projected to become the first and the largest in that area alone. So we talk about more than 50 seatings of restaurants and two tiers of pools, so it's very, very interesting.

I'm excited for your launch and I'm excited to visit one point this year. That said, I'm really curious, since we are in Bangkok at a short-term rental conference, you used to be in this short-term rental industry, now have moved to the hotel industry, I'm really curious, what are some trends you're seeing in both these two markets, especially perhaps in the Indonesia geography

Well, short-term rentals or what we commonly know in Indonesia as villa rentals is not too much different with hotels, but it has distinct differentiations in between the products. Villas particularly have every unit has their own pool in which why the Kayon is also well, it's kind of related as well because we also have villas, two of our units particularly in Bali and in Karangasam.

Each of the units is equipped with their own private villa. What I see is interesting in this year and that last year I think the business has been grown quite significantly and to the point that there's too much investments, there too much new listings in Bali, there's new villas and there's new properties.

that being launched after the pandemic. And unfortunately, it also gives an improper growth towards Bali because there's a lot of investment that are non-regulated properly and that's also impacting the hotel industry. Based on the data from the central statistical data in Indonesia, the total number of bedrooms in Bali is actually around 150. But if we compare the data to

listing in OTA is about 500,000 bedrooms. Well, we compared to the statistical data, 150,000 of bedrooms in Bali total versus 500,000. So that's quite a triple the amount of the official report should be. I think this is because

Thank

post pandemic, there's a lot of people actually want to invest like let's invest in Airbnb style, Airbnb business in Bali. Meanwhile, they forgot that, to invest a such business, you can't just, rent out a houses or you cannot just rent out a villa for five years, two years, then you list it up in Airbnb just like that because there's of course there's another regulations that follows it.

That has become the trap of a lot of people that are actually investing in Bali. At the same time, it's also affecting the hotel industry. It's also affecting the overall STR industry because they are becoming unregulated. I think the level of playing field is not even because those who are actually unregulated, can pay below minimum wages, they can pay very low operating expenses, they are not collecting tax in the

appropriate way, they are not collecting surface trash and distributing it appropriate way. And most often the funds actually come to the owner or the leaseholder, whoever owns the merchant or the host, somewhere else out of Indonesia. And they only pay a very minimum amount like housekeeping fees or whatever to Bali. So that's become something that triggers a lot of things.

What I'm excited about in this year is that finally the government is cracking down these issues as we are discussing this as well on the conference. By end of March, all of the listings in OTAs needs to be equipped with a certain licensing as well. So

host lists a property in Bali, should also upload the certifications, licenses, building permits, business structure, to maintain their listings. Otherwise, the OTA is going to delist their listings, And I'm very excited because by then, it will reach some sort of like

a more healthy supply instead of those actually unreasonable and articulated business.

Yeah, that's great. I just spoke with someone else and I was saying policy structure regulation is missing. Yeah, we're always seeing this grey area. Yeah, it's or doing it but.

you know, no one's really saying anything, however, there could be fines, but no one's getting fines, all that stuff. And so that's great to hear that Bali's evolving and changing in positive way. Kind of going a little bit back to what you also talked about, that your hotel offers villas, which is, basically a rental. What is your,

Exactly.

perspective or take on the new way that Airbnb is showing and distributing hotels. Because now on the platform, when you search for a stay, you're seeing both products. Given your background in charging rentals, given the product that you're selling, what's your take?

Well, I think it's inevitable because Airbnb is widely known as a rental for houses, right? the fact is, in other OTAs, there are also hotels and villas. So if you go to booking.com,

you will see a lot of short-term rentals as well. You'll see a lot of villas as well. So it is not something new for us. It's not something new for me as well. Airbnb has started to shift its business model towards, from before it was a host base. I think it's more into a property base. So I think they start to explore both worlds to make their business model is more, I think, reaching more,

what is called property types instead of only focusing on villas. Meanwhile, indeed, it was originated for villas.

No, I agree. I think it's inevitable. Some people say, well, look at VRBO It's all separate. Sometimes we have filters. But right now, think Airbnb doesn't have those capabilities. I'm sure they'll start building it. But yeah, I think if it's a very similar product, you end up with eyeballs and eyeballs. And you talk about distribution, that's the power of it.

2025 is a very interesting year because it's up and down. mean, like, there's a lot of disturbances There's a surge of supply in the market. So what we are experiencing in 2025 is that it's not just about, short-term rentals, but also for hotels. So both worlds actually experiencing very interesting ups and downs in...

occupancy particularly in the first quarter and the last quarter is very unstable and unpredictable. The surge of supplies, the shortage of demands and people start to travel elsewhere and also affected by a lot of things like especially for Bali like the news that traffic jam, flood,

in which it comes back, the pattern starts coming back to pre-pandemic. So there will be ups and downs. It's not going to be a very similar high occupancy, high demand but we already pick up demand for the second quarter, which, historically it's Easter season.

So as people start to book earlier, so we start already receiving demands for April and May and June. And that's how the pattern before.

Great, great. Well, Adhiguna it was so nice to have you on here. So great to see you again. I'm excited for the Kayon and for your 2026 Thank you. to see you in Bali soon.

Yeah, I think you should come to our next event at BaliVillaConnect

Why don't you tell our folks when the Bali Villa Connect conference is.

Bali Vila Connect is somewhere around 26th 27th of May. So we will be seeing everyone.

Okay, well I'll see you there then.

you there. Thanks a lot Justin. Thank you.

Frazer, so nice to have you on the Curious Concerts podcast. How are you today?

Well, Justin, thank you for having us.

you are the founder and CEO of EvryStay and we're really excited to learn more about it. So why don't you share with us a little bit more about your app that you created

EvryStay is effectively an AI powered guest guide. It is a guest layout that we integrate with your current systems, really focusing on the guest's journey and their ability to be able to explore the local area with their favorite device, which is their iPhone. So how this helps hosts and hoteliers, we allow them to receive commissions from guest experiences that the guests book.

They're also able to talk to an AI concierge, get answers instantly, read all the information, but ultimately just be comfortable from the start, from the beginning, with their friends. yeah, it's been fun. Two years, it's been good.

Wonderful. mean, you're unlocking so much time for the short-term rental staff or the hotel staff. And I think providing this upselling moment is such a great way and opportunistic way for these companies to really earn that ancillary revenue that folks might not be thinking of. So I'm really curious, you know, before we dive into more of that, what got you into the hospitality space?

I was actually what we are now selling to I was a property manager. So I had a boutique portfolio in Melbourne I was operating that for about three years and Subsequently sold that portfolio in April of last year, but throughout that time period I did have a couple of pain points for myself. There was Relatable ones that every property manager out there can relate to it was that what is the Wi-Fi code at 2 a.m Text that I was constantly receiving but even more than that it was more so

I was suggesting these experiences in restaurants to my guests on a daily basis and I really was thinking about how could I ensure this flow was quicker, automated, also that it had a bit of upside for Airbnb hosts themselves too. And that was the back of the napkin two years ago. And now it's my full-time thing.

That's wonderful. And I'm curious to hear your take as a guest of a hotel. When I approach the concierge team, I would prefer or love to hear, you know, their personal thoughts and anecdotes of specific hidden gems or places I should go visit. So what's your take when you perhaps incorporate AI or I mean, everything can be found online, but, know, kind of showing that

credibility and anecdotal point of this is the preferred restaurant of choice of the operator.

We've definitely taken a lot of time to consider that exact point. I think as a premise, people drive technology, technology doesn't drive people. And the way our software works is it allows for the host to completely white label and curate the own experiences that they want to suggest to their guests. technology helps enhance both the guest and the host's journey. It is not an entire replacement. It doesn't mean that the host should or can go on a holiday forever.

If they are wanting to have a sit down with the host, I would love and suggest for the host to do that with them. But at the same time, you know, I've been a guest at AirVnBs and hotels too myself. And if I, for some reason, wasn't in the mood to have a long conversation, I just wanted to scroll on my phone and have a look at these different experiences, I will know exactly what that host has recommended as the local guide on the comfort of my own device. And you still get that personal touch, which is super important for us. Super important for us.

Right, and I think you mentioned about how these operators shouldn't just go on vacation on their own and kind of leave this app and let the guests be. Working with all these operators, what has been something that has surprised you the most throughout this process?

probably how popular the experience and section really was. when we set up EvryStay originally, it was very much based around EVE, which is our AI concierge, the ability to be able to communicate and give your guests instant answers. And the back of a napkin idea two years ago, we had experiences on the side as one of the extra perks of using EvryStay and it has subsequently become one of our main value propositions. And so as a result of it, we have

giving a lot more thought and time and effort into the algorithms and make sure we are providing the best experiences and attractions that the host can use. people now are signing up with every stay, not for what we originally thought would be the case, which was the AI Concierge, but merely for the ability to be able to suggest local experiences because now we know in hindsight, 65 % of your stays actually outside of the Airbnb.

but a lot of Airbnb guests are reviewing their experience as a whole. So if you're a host and you're receiving reviews, and we all know how important reviews are for our business, if we are not giving them good recommendations and they end up eating at a bad restaurant, having a bad experience down the street, and that ultimately reflects your business, it's super important to be on top of that. And in hindsight, it makes sense why it's so popular. Yeah, surprising initially, not anymore.

think what's also so exciting is that operators are now utilizing AI in different formats, such as your platform that you're providing this guide. And I'm curious to hear your take on the short term industry in the near future. Is it going to be filled with AI tech stacks or are we going to see a transformation on the way that

operators are treating guests.

I'll give you the take that I want it to go, the direction I want it to go in. I'm not sure if this will happen, I really hope it does. But I think the beauty of how we can leverage AI to make an experience good for both the host and the guest is hyper-personalization, the ability to be able to recognize what a traveler is wanting out of that stay and therefore curate and offer upsell opportunities, experiential opportunities.

Even their app have it ready to go for them the moment they click in as opposed to them currently having to fill out information. That's where I really think the value proposition would come in because you're right, as you said earlier, people can search the internet and still ultimately find a good recommendation. That's the ability for it to be hyper-personalised, both on the host and the guest side. That I would love to see it going, that's what we're working at.

That's great. I think hyper-personalization in today's day and age with AI is the fact that we're also changing the way that we do our research. We're asking questions and wanting an immediate answer instead of asking a question and having to do the actual work to then get that answer. And so it's nice and comforting to know that these are selected, preferred places, opinions from the operators.

that they're sharing with their guests. That said, what are you excited about at EvryStay that you're building in the coming months or this year?

I think in terms of the legroom that we have to

the app has been very much centered around how the guest experiences it. And I really think that's important. I will take that to my grave, that's the most important thing. Ultimately at the beginning, we did find it difficult to sell that to a property manager, right? Because the property manager needs to see exactly what benefit they're going to receive on their end.

So now that we have nailed the guest experiential flow and how they're experiencing their stay through EvryStay our web apps, we're now able to optimize and create even more efficient and improved opportunities on the host side, being suggestive about what they can do next, doing some of the task for them, creating a task manager. And that's sort of the leg room that we've opened for ourselves and we're currently working on. So that's what's exciting.

Well that's exciting. think that's something that you really unlock the time of the head of ops, the operators that sometimes are just so inundated with the day to day that they forget to pull back the curtains a little bit and really try to understand and analyze their current situation or issues that are causing their bottlenecks. Well, Fraser, thank you so much for the time. I'm so excited.

for what's to come for you. And is there anything else that you'd like to share or where can folks find you?

you can find us by searching EvryStay we've made it a little bit difficult for you by removing the E from the word every stay so you have to spell it E V R Y and yeah you can reach out to us there is contact details on the website we've got some learning series videos if want to learn more about it and I personally am also taking some calls if you can find a little cheeky calendar link on the website so basically thank you so much for having me Justin

I'll put the link in the show notes below. Nice to have you, Frazer.

Hello, Naree. Nice to see you.

Naree Sunetta is a seasoned hospitality leader and visionary focused on elevating standards and strengthening quality across Thailand's accommodation sector. As CEO of Naree Hospitality and the president of the Hostel and Small Accommodation Association here in Thailand, she plays a central role in advancing professionalism, regulation, and collaborative growth for small-scale stays such as hostels.

and community-focused accommodations. So today, Naree brings a uniquely grounded perspective on how local leadership, quality frameworks, and inclusive policy can shape the future of short-term rentals across Asia. Wow.

hi everyone, I'm Naree Yeah as mentioned we drive the small things in Thailand at the moment. for small property

and there's many many small players so I'm really excited to have you ⁓ chat with us today. So you said something really interesting during your keynote speech which was that in Thailand a lot of people actually don't know what the short-term rental keyword is or what does know what does short-term rental really mean. People here maybe you can explain a little bit more.

Sure,

in Thailand, a short-term rentals means the length of stay. So if less than 30 days, we call a short-term rentals. Or even if it's just only one month, two months, three months, it's still called a short-term rental. So it doesn't mean for the property type, but it means for the length of stay only. So let's say if you stay in the hostel, the other

Besides the hotel things a hotel or homestay people love homestay at homestay or a tent or even a raft even in a car is still a short-term rental if you rent just only five days six days even one month Yes, yeah, so totally different

It's so interesting because I think as an outsider, a lot of people think of, especially in Thailand, such as places like Phuket, you think about villas, you think about these large houses with swimming pools and butler service. And so it's very interesting that even local folks, despite how large this community or marketplace or how large this business is, people still don't really know what the word short-term rental is.

And so I guess I'm curious, what do you think that locals feel about short-term rentals? It is such a big deal, as I mentioned, a lot of people come and specifically look out for these beautiful villas, beautiful homes, instead of staying at hotels. What are the sentiment and emotions that local Thai folks feel about short-term rentals?

Okay, so if they want to book something not a hotel, hotel means a hotel. But besides the hotel, we will be specifically work. Let's say like I was there in the Pool Villa Yeah, Thai people love Pool Villa Everywhere Pool Villa. Or besides of the Pool Villa, they also know it's Airbnb. So Airbnb would be something like very private one. So can have privacy.

Even you can have a little bit add up on the kitchen area. So the hotel doesn't have kitchen, right? But Airbnb, they add on the kitchen part. So if you need the kitchen to cook, you have to Airbnb. It's cheaper than a hotel and it's more privacy. they know Airbnb one. They doesn't know what does it mean, the vacation rental.

There's no STR, no, no. Just only Pool Villa, a hotel and Airbnb, maybe three words. but now it's coming, a hostel.

That's very interesting because Airbnb is just a company and not the type of lodging. And so I suppose going on to that as well, especially in Thailand, the regulations are slowly changing, but still it's rather relaxed, right? You can say you have eight rooms under one roof less than 30 days.

still accommodation or short-term rental and not a hotel type of qualification. Does that impact a lot of Thai folks when it comes to housing supply, residential supply? Do people like Airbnbs as a business in their local cities or are they actually not enjoying it as much?

You mean the guest or the owner of the property?

I'm actually talking about maybe the neighbors, especially in Thailand because it's such a big business. What are people's sentiment? How do people feel about it?

Okay, so ⁓ now I have to say like Airbnb Thailand, they try to change the image of the Airbnb, to be localizations, to be matching with the local experiences. It's just not only the place to stay, it's place for staying with good experiences. You know, they create the culture.

they bring the people to go outside to do some activities, the local activities to paint some art or they can cook some local food so they just bring all around the neighbourhood have much more income by their properties so if you have the property, you the big hotel, let's say

So you will have ⁓ all in one services. So you can have like your own laundry. sell your own tour, you know, but for the small properties, if you want to do the rendezvous, you have to walk out next neighborhood. So they can spend money there too. And if you're hungry, so you go to the local restaurant, your next neighborhood. So the Airbnb one, I think is a very good ⁓ model. ⁓

that you can sharing the money to the local people as well in the other businesses.

Great. Okay. And I think you also mentioned, since we're talking about localization and exploring more in your city, I think hostels are a great place to do it, right? Because I think hotels, people obviously, adventure outside, but also really enjoy their hotels. some people travel to just experience the hotel, even though you're

in a place like this in Bangkok, right? There's so many things to do, people just want to stay in the hotel. While hostels, I think people are always going outside, trying something new. So as president of the Hostel Association, as well as managing hostels, what got you into the hostel business?

Hmm, actually like I start this business like almost 15 years ago. have to say that 15 years ago since 2012 Actually like my background Yeah, I work for the financials company before the financial investment for the offshore one. Oh my god totally different what I am at the moment and in that time like my family's they searching for

they want to do the hotel. Can't believe like they want to be something like Hilton because we set the host name as our surname. Yeah, it's a Suneta hostel. So it's my surname. So, ⁓ I want to be famous like a Hilton hotel. That's what they want. And then after the first branches, they expanding the other province as well. So that what they start and they want someone to operate it. So I jump in to operate.

⁓ the hostel so we expanding like one two three four and five yeah all around in in Thailand so what what we start and I think the thing is what is totally different is because for the guests in the hostel we are friends we they totally different so if the hotel when the guests come we have to greet them right but for the hostel

they greeting us. Yeah, oh hi, oh hi, hi. You know, if you don't greet them back, oh, this is not nice. So you're not friendly enough. So we kind of have the score of the friendliness. Yeah. So if you have some experiences that you can give them, that would be very good. So now there is many types of hostels. So let's say if you have a party hostel.

Everyone partying all the time, drunk all the time. You can't sleep on the bed. They will distract you. They put the alcohol in your throat and then wake up, party all the time. They love that. Especially Europe people love that. But for the Asian people, they want some kind of like a big space. So there is another type of the hostel. It's called the homely hostel or the co-working hostel, the commercial hostel.

Yeah, there are three or four Thai hostels in Thailand. So it depends on your nature, what kind of hostels you like. So for my hostel, it's like a homely hostel maybe. We do the culture things. So we have like three activities a week. So we have ⁓ the cooking, you know, teach people cook a Thai local food. They normally don't cook but...

they're just watching and then want us to cook for them. And then we have the walking tour. that's interesting because in that time, like the walking tour, they have to pay for that. But our volunteer want to explore the experience. So they want to eat that, but they don't know what is inside. And the people cannot speak English. So they need just only someone to explain to them to just walk together.

It's called walking tour, not just only the tourist spot place, but walking around in the local area. Yeah, it's called a walking tour and it's very worth, like the people just see this. this has been very interesting. And they just come and book it and maybe a learning, teaching time, you know, the people come here and doesn't know how to greet, how to ask for the price and just only the short conversations like one hour.

Yeah, to make them feel comfortable.

and that's very interesting too. we do something like that, activities in hostels.

That's

great. And I feel like hostels, there's a lot of programming, right? Because they are more nomadic or adventurous. In your case, as homie, and they really want to experience local flair and authenticity of the place. off, know, earlier on, we were talking and you mentioned something very interesting. And I think you also mentioned this just now is that, for example, the friendliness of staff.

So maybe we just dive into that just a little bit, because I think it's very interesting. hotels, obviously, if you have a Marriott or a Hilton, you have expectations of how to talk to the guests, how to greet the guests. At hostels, obviously, maybe the standards a little bit different, especially for the price point. But you want to obviously provide an amazing experience, an amazing service. However, I think you mentioned something very interesting is that hostels

tend to attract a much younger audience. perhaps maybe at 17, 18, right before they go to college, right after they enter college. And so there's actually a different type of way sometimes you have to treat these guests because at the end of the day, you want to bring an environment to the entire hotel. But you have very young travelers who might be in a homey hostel.

but think it's a party hostel and not following the rules. So we'd love to hear how you have to handle these sort of situations because I'm sure you'll see a lot of younger clientele coming to your hostels.

We tell the staff, like, okay, just think that they are your family. And the main thing is family. The family means not just only, like, talk nicely or friendly to them or taking care very good, but we can bark at them sometimes if they do something wrong, you know, we just call them and then, hey, you know this is wrong. Yeah, you have to get along to the culture. And they say,

Okay, okay. Yeah, some discipline. Yeah. How you can do this? Like, I'm sorry. Something like that. It's very unique and it's very nice because ⁓ they don't get mad at us. You know, they totally understand that we just ⁓ think this will be good for them in the future. If they do behavior like this, it will not be good for them.

Some discipline.

So they just like come down after they, you know, better after drunk last night and they just come down, apologize like, I'm so apologize what happened last night. And that will not happen in the hotel, you know, but in the hotel, yes, even like they have to pay fine sometimes. They're still apologize for that. Yeah. And that's very good.

Yeah, that's great. You really create a family and community, even though obviously some people, it's their first time, there's some discipline, but I think it's very necessary. So that's very, very interesting to hear. So would love to actually pivot a little bit and just hear about your thoughts on what you're most excited or bullish for in 2026 and what you might be bearish or less excited about for the coming year when it comes to either

technology, whether it comes to regulations, whether it comes to hostile growth in Thailand.

Okay, actually I have to say like since we start like to drive the law in 2015 maybe this is now 11 years already everything changed but much more better than before you know before the non-hotel law I have to say the non-hotel laws mean if you have four rooms it's a non-hotel but now it keeps coming from four to eight it's double

So if you have less than 8 rooms, then you can still have a license, but it's called a non-hotel one. It will be much better for a small entrepreneur to come into the system. Better, I think, is best for the industry, the tourism industry. And for the hostels, mean, the hostels always rent the properties in the commercial building.

And before there would be some regulation that would be flexible enough to apply. But one thing is, is still a big problem is for the renovation part or if something like we need to ask a specialist to sign and it costs you a lot of money. It's a big money for a small, small business like us. So it's more than maybe more than a million baht to apply for that. So

I don't think it's worth enough to do it at the moment until the law expires and we still cannot get it right. So now we drive the law to have different type of accommodations in the future. So still for now after elections for a couple days, so we're still seeing who will be the government. So we can drive pushing.

more and more and make it clear for everyone so they can just be in the system, they just do in the proper way to do.

Yeah, absolutely. I think it's very important to have proper frameworks, proper jurisdictions and regulations to make sure that each individual type of lodging can really flourish and grow properly, especially in a place like Bangkok and Thailand when, you know, hospitality, lodging, accommodation is extremely popular and getting more popular as tourism increases. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

You're

very welcome!

Cee, it's so nice to have you on the podcast. Nice to meet you. Cee is a luxury connector and brand strategist operating at the crossroads of prestige, influence, and high-end hospitality in Asia. with deep relationships across the luxury ecosystem, C offers insights into how perception, positioning, and community drives premium performance.

and the Asian market. So I'm really excited to be chatting with you today.

Thank so much for inviting me and hello everyone. It's my great honor to participate in this podcast, in this event,

We're glad to have you here. Your background spans across different types of industries in the luxury segment. Would love to hear how you got into it and what you currently do now.

Okay, I ⁓ start involving in the luxury industry since I was young from a buyer for the gems and jewelry watches and supercar. But after my graduation, I joined in the gems and jewelry industry, being a producer, producing the silver jewelry with precious gemstone.

After that, after like more than 30 years, after that I joined International College of Gemstone Association in New York. And ICA Gem Lab is specialized in the origin determination of precious gemstone. And after that, during the COVID era, I joined in the politics just to help the people in my district that I work in Bangla

When everything finished, I joined one of the ultra-luxury global media brands and involved in many events and connecting with friends and customers in the ultra-luxury market like luxury cars, branded residents, and Gems and Jewelry watches and so on. And now, with the TimeOut

Thailand and the cocktail Thailand. I think you're familiar with TimeOut right? Yes. TimeOut is ⁓ what is happening in Thailand and what will be happening in Thailand. And a cocktail is not from the cocktail that we drink, but the cocktail is Bangkok. It's telling you something about luxury about

who's going to be ⁓ in focus like we have the Futurist 100 from the successful young entrepreneur to the entrepreneur who's successful in various types of business.

Love that. And Time Out is a very well-known publication and media platform. And that's really exciting. And you're absolutely right. I cocktails are not just a drink. It really tells about what society is happening right now and how Bangkok or Thailand is flourishing. Given your background in luxury, how has branding, especially in the luxury space, become more important in this environment?

I think Asia, in Thailand, we have a very highest potential for the luxury. The luxury market in Asia is growing and growing. It's not because of the economy, but because of

geopolitics and the need after the COVID, people need something. People need luxury, not just to telling people that they have money to buy, not for showing, but the luxury thing that they're wearing is about something that they like. It's about passion. It's about emotional. It's about telling that tale who they are.

Yes, when we think about the sustainability of the luxury, you can see that some brands decline, some brands still engage. If you look around in Bangkok, if you go to New York or any place, you may see some brands that are engaging with people through the cafe, through the culinary arts.

It's because something that people can feel, people can connect to the brand much more which link to the culture of each country. And then when they're having a...

when they're the dessert or the meal or anything, the impression of the taste that they have and the decoration impressive and linked to the emotional tie in with the brand. for me, see it like being like a brand loyalty through the experience. And for thinking about the sustainability, the brand,

need to know their customer. The brand need to have a highest ethical and transparency in doing business You need to tell your client the truth and everything not to mislead your client.

And the after-sales service is something that connects the client to your brand.

I love that. the way you even shared this perspective is so indicative of how luxury is. It's really about storytelling. It's about connection and it's never ending. You can't just leave the product and say, I am done. You have purchased and I'm going to go. It is really about that familiarity and that build and trust.

but also providing so much cultural relevance.

we've seen such a strong gravity towards these luxury brands. So you've just talked about what makes a luxury brand good, but what about the luxury brands that might be failing? What are some things that make luxury fail that you've seen in Asia specifically?

Something that makes some brand fail is because you don't treat your customer well. You are not having the culture of the country that you are in. And you lack of culture. You lack of storytelling. And if you think that, OK, you are globally, you are well known already.

You don't need to care about your customer like after-sales service. also the craftsmanship. The craftsmanship is the heart of the luxury. The craftsmanship reflects that. How you care for your customer. How you give the highest quality that you can to your customer. Because when the customer consider to buy something, they will see the craftsmanship.

besides the brand because they are ready to pay.

the brand logo that's hidden inside is something that guarantee from lifetime craftsmanship that you can pass from you to your next generation and your next generation pass to another generation. It's the collectible item for you and for your family too. This is something that make the brand standing up high. The brand that lack of storytelling

lack of caring for the customer, sincerity, culture, and lack of responsibility about the human and our environment will absolutely fail.

this also applies to not only products in the luxury space, but also accommodations, services, which kind of brings us to where we are today. We're at a short-term rental conference, and it's kind of a combination of all of that. It's the product, it's the service, it's the feeling, it's the presence that you provide to the customer. And so I'm curious, what are some trends

you are seeing right now with the high net worth individuals when it comes to traveling in Asia.

When

it comes to traveling, you may see that rather than traveling with the first class, they prefer the private jet. It's not because they want to show or they want something or no, Because time is precious. So that's why they're traveling with a private jet. They don't need to wait.

when it comes to the place that they want to stay. If we are talking about the ultra high network individual, I believe that everyone already stay in a five or six star hotel. And to keep them...

in a five or six star hotel right now, it's not the amenity you put in the room. But because of the service, the hospitality, how you train your people in the hotel to serve them. This is something that it will keep your hotel or your place in mind. And when it comes to the short term rental,

Why people prefer to stay in a short-term rental villa It's because when a big family traveling like, okay, we're traveling with nine people Staying in a hotel, need to like in separate room. Even you can take the whole floor, in the penthouse, in the whole floor.

But you need to be in separate room. And when you come down, you have to join the restaurant, pub and everything. But they can stay in a nice villa, looking at the beautiful sea.

and it has a private pool, you don't need to join the pool with anyone. you can have the private chef, private DJ, and butler, and the team and everything. This is a benefit of the private property for the short-term rental, that's different from the hotel.

But most of all, the service, the hospitality that the owner of the property provides to that client.

Definitely. So I absolutely agree. You have to provide these hotel like services and amenities to these individuals because the expectations extremely.

It's extremely high and you need to provide a great experience for them to remember. you need to be the only choice, not the first choice, but the only

The

only choice. I agree. And so let's say you check all those boxes, right? We have an amazing villa experience for this high net worth individual. You have service, butler, food, et cetera. I'm curious to know your perspective on what are some things that might be overhyped or overdone, Are there

any examples or things that you've seen in the past where people put too much emphasis on one or two things that don't really matter.

The most important thing, would say the security, the privacy. This is something that the short-term rental can provide because in the hotel, yes, in some area, it will be the public area. And those who have the property for them, available for them.

to realize this.

Well said. I think you're right. I've had an experience where a super celebrity stayed in one of our properties previously and it took an army of security guards and a lot of measures to make the estate actually even more private. You know, they checked all the entrances. came, a couple days before. And I think that is something special about villas and these sort of homes where you can actually provide that.

opportunity for these type of clients compared to hotel. Yes, you might be staying at a four seasons, you have maybe a different entrance, maybe you have security guards on site, but there's so much public and shared space that you kind of lose that sense of privacy and even that time.

So what are some things that you're most excited or bullish for in Thailand's luxury scene? Are there any trends? Are there things that you think can be improved on that you're excited about in the coming years?

For the upcoming year, okay, start from this year, if you look into the potential of Thailand, Thailand is in the center of the air transportation, and we are out from any conflict.

Another thing that we have is we have culture, we have traditional and we are born with the hospitality service because we are teaching from the ancient time like this is a land of smile and Thailand is still the land of smile and thinking about the infrastructure.

Thailand has everything to serve people

the luxury is keep growing and growing. in next year, we expect the short-term rental in the luxury villa. We're growing up. I think some people or in some organizations, they expect 300 % up. But I will give like 200 % up.

Wow, I mean that's still a great increase.

Yes,

you can see in Phuket that we have many of the brand residents. The latest one is the Etro. right now we have the design from German. You may familiar with that, the Porsche design.

This is something that gives Thailand the center, the focus of the luxury brand.

Yeah, absolutely. What do you think about comparing to Hong Kong and Singapore when it comes to the luxury space in general and or hospitality?

To be honest, think Thailand is still leading in the number one because we have everything for like a season sun and we have everything to serve for the business, for the function like I told you the mice and everything because of something that will make the ultra luxury people not only for relaxing but for business too

okay, we are not talking about Bangkok because you know everything about Bangkok. But looking at Phuket, we have a very good international school We have ⁓ many, of the, one of the best hospitals.

that are available. planning to be the medical hub.

And very good doctor at many so on. And another thing that we have and no one has is the wellness. The wellness and the longevity and the spa.

quality tourism is here to come to Bangkok or Thailand in general. I've seen some hotels that are very focused on giving you

health checkups, providing you programming that are specific to health and wellness, and that's all you do at the resort. One last question for you. what is one luxury brand or perhaps in the hotel space or accommodation space that you really like?

Tough question! There's some hotel that I like and in my mind, when thinking about the experience and service, I still in love with the Four Seasons.

And I also told my friend in the four seasons, that you already spoil me. You already spoil me from the standard of your service. But when thinking about the culture and the history, something that throw you back in time, Langham Hotel

is in my first thought And I'm looking at the new Langham venue in Bangkok along the Chao Phraya River. Because I'm really excited because the Langham Bangkok is going to throw me back in the era of King Rama V and the aristrocratic that I want to see besides the neo-colonial or the old post office building.

It's reflecting about Thailand culture, the architecture that developed, and our civilization since King Rama V.

Langham is a very interesting brand. It's based in Hong Kong. It has roots in the UK. We're talking about afternoon tea and that quality service and craftsmanship as you mentioned. it's great that it's giving you that nostalgia of your past.

well thank you so much for spending some time with me. So nice to meet you.

Nice

meeting you. Thank you, everyone.

Kadek, welcome back on the Curious Concierge. So nice to see you again. So Kadek is the chair of the Bali Villa Rental Management Association and also represents one of Asia's most established villa ecosystem. As a strong voice for local operators, Kadek also offers really grounded insights into standards, community integration, and sustainable growth in Bali's short-term rental market.

Nice to see you, Justin.

So welcome, Kadek. Nice to see you. So as ⁓ someone who drives a lot of community and works with a lot of operators, what is one thing that Indonesian operators or Bali

ahead of the curve. Is there something that you think bali people do better than anyone?

Actually, from my point of view, Bali itself has strong culture, And then this culture, basic of the Balinese, make the services to the tourists, different than others,

which are not found in another country, unique

very unique. Yes.

But now that you sit at this conference, there's so

Yes.

labor and use of people or do you think there is this wave of new technologies?

Yeah, I think it is mixed now. Of course, as a short-term rental businesses, we also find out what can make us easier to do our job. And on the other side, we also think that the clients, want original, they want services. So in this part, we cannot change this technology into technology.

They want to see the culture. They don't want to see like, I want to see the machine, I want to see the technology. Yeah, they want to see the typical Balinese. ⁓

So some people who forget about that, or just focus on booking, or just focus on driving revenue,

On the other side, course, we cannot say that technology is not important. really, technology is important. But not all of the matters can be replaced by the technology. For example, the hospitality of the Balinese people cannot be replaced by technology.

And so now that you're here, meeting with...

talking about different regulations. What are some misunderstandings that foreign investors

have with local realities

Actually, the most investor concern actually must go to a route itself. The route I mean is the regulation. The route itself is the compliance. The investor forgot about that. They think when they apply on only one license, they think like in Bali we have or Indonesia we have OSS.

They think by applying this OSS, everything is already finished, already done. But in fact, this is only the first step. Then the next step is they have to know the local culture, the local rule.

So the investors should know how to manage their businesses in Bali to connect with this culture and tradition itself. How the investors are also involved in sustaining this kind of elements.

on that.

Without this uniqueness, then Bali will not mean nothing to the world. So the investors should follow the rule. First, compliance is very important because some areas in Bali are able to build and then some areas are not allowed to build businesses. And of course, we welcome the investors very important in Bali businesses.

Not all areas are to develop short-term rental villas, for example. Some areas are very protected, and keep the Balinese culture still exist for the future.

And so as you mentioned, some people kind of forget, some people don't focus on the sort of culture, local elements, but still foreign investments still come in pretty strongly. Do you think small operators in Bali are at risk of being squeezed out of them, potentially losing?

Yes,

of course when the government didn't take action, then the foreign investor will ruin the businesses in Bali. As we know that Balinese people have to have their own business to keep their life, to keep their culture. Like we had a word in Bali, when the swan having gold eggs

So everyone from all over the world wants the gold eggs only without taking care of the swan. Then it means when the investor only see the gold without having a...

participation to take care of the swan, then nothing will happen. And then it means that the business of foreign investors in Bali have to be controlled well. We welcome them, but not all the businesses for local people are taken. There must be a split between foreigner businesses and local businesses.

For example, foreign business investor has to be in a level of, let's say, invest, let's say like 100 billion rupiah, for example. This is the limit. Under that, we don't give to foreign investor. Let's local people do. They can do better than the...

foreign investor but by numbers over this 100 billion then we give to international investor that might be local people cannot reach it. So I think this is a good management when our government can do this to the future to keep

Balinese exist with their culture, their nature, with their tourism of course. Then on other side, let's also give the chance to the foreign and historic to develop higher quality of tourism in the future.

And well said, there needs to always be that balance and giving the locals a chance to really level up but also instead of just saying, sorry. So I'm curious as part of the BVRMA, how much of the percentage are local versus foreigners?

Well, in the members, mean. The members now, we had nearly 90 % local. That's great. And then 10 % foreigners. Which are the foreigners themselves also really great. And also they support, they understand the rules of local culture. And they even support us a lot how we can manage the

Okay?

the system

That's good. And I'm curious on that note, we talk a lot about foreign investments, talk a lot about these foreigners, these guests, but these guests are now staying in Bali for a long period of time, even calling Bali home, right? And they're becoming new residents. As someone who grew up in Indonesia, has spent so much time in Bali growing up, what do you feel about this environment change?

For example, I saw this video online and it wasn't a volume, it was a book. And it was basically all foreigners and the locals felt like they were in a different country. Everyone was skating, everyone was just hanging around and obviously these foreigners are staying there for three, weeks. But then the locals come and they're like, wait, where am I? This is my home.

How do you feel about all them changes?

there are lots of digital nomads staying over months in Bali.

and they have their own communities around and Balinese also they have a private community like Banjar we call it organization we both live in a harmonious because Balinese knows the limit and also the foreigners they also have the limit how they react to local people how they

manage their relationship to local people

when we accept other foreign living with us so we must also accept the negative impact and also positive impact

coming together. my point of view, as long as we can control our relationship, then nobody will feel disturbed. The foreigner, they have their own lifestyle and the local people also they have their own lifestyle. So we live harmony. That's what our religion teach us how to live in a harmony.

between foreigners and locals. This world is for everybody who can live everywhere where they want, of course, following the culture, following the rules of the place itself, where they stay.

Yeah, well that's great. My final question to you is, especially for the short-term rental industry, as AI is moving so fast and other tools as we mentioned, what are some things that you are bullish on and bearish on?

⁓

my point of view is the growth, the growth of the branded and professional managed villas.

At the moment in Bali, there are so many, let's say, illegal businesses, especially in...

buying property in Bali so quick, without thinking the impact to the future between the supply and demand. We had a lot of supply, but very low demand. That means if we don't control it, then in some years we will have lots of problems in terms of maybe price war.

in terms of shifting the green area into building, massive building situation. And then many problems arise when we are not controlling the current situation in Bali. So I'm thinking when we consistently keep our

our services, constantly, let's say, professional services, then the quality tourism will increase, the people will have more possibility to enjoy Bali with its culture, not with its traffic and bad waste management at the moment.

And yeah, we have to strike on this. So make this business more professional, great structure, and then well-managed business.

system.

And of course, control from the government has to be there and to keep all the business between foreigner or local equivalent.

Yes. Definitely well said. Well, I hope that in the future, Bali really takes control of the regulations, as you mentioned, and creating that balance. So great to see you again, Kadek Thank you so much for your time.

My pleasure Justin, really nice to talk with you and to discuss about everything

Lorenzo, so nice to have you on the Curious Concierge. Lorenzo Lella represents Octarate, a global channel management and distribution platform serving short-term rental operators. With deep experience in distribution strategy and multi-channel scale, Lorenzo brings insight into how operators can navigate OTA relationships, pricing, global demand dynamics, as well as navigating your property management system.

Lorenzo, to meet you.

Nice to meet you. Thank you, Justin, for the invitation. I'm very to be here.

Well, first I had a question about how you got into the hospitality space.

So I'm Lorenzo and I start as a property manager. So just with four or five units and as well with a little amount like this, I understand that there was something missing for my side. So that's how I discovered this world of short-term rental that is just fabulous because everything is very fast, it's changing. And so I entered like this was already 10 years ago.

And after we developed this PMS, and now it's a long journey, very good. And now we are grow, we are in 70 different countries. So everything is going wonderful.

Amazing. Did you build the PMS to solve your own problems or was this something that other people are like, I loved what you're doing. You're growing. There's so many other owners in this space that just kind of wanted to get your help in general.

So woes not for my problem but for the problem of the community. So, speaking with others that were making the same job, everybody was complaining for the same thing. So I said, okay, why we can do something that can help all these people? So that's why we start.

Amazing. So distribution is becoming very fragmented. think as you know, there's not just your typical OTAs like booking.com, Vodafone, Airbnb. You have small companies trying to push distribution outside, which means you're losing the ability to drive to different projects, which I think is perfect. So how are operators today in your eyes? Do you think they're gaining the ability to actually

More revenue or do you think they're actually losing because they're just?

So first of all it's important to understand my property, what is the target? It's people from my country, it's people from another country, it's couple, it's family, because we have a lot of OTA as you say and very specific. So for Russian couple you have one, for German family another one. So it's very important to understand where my customer came from and select the correct OTAs, this is the first part. Of course...

At the same time, it's important to have a strong reputation, a strong brand. So there is a lot of little tips that we can suggest, for example, to put the logo of your own company in the listing. Because a lot of people now, they are smart. So they will find you on this website, on the OTA, and after they will call you or book you on Google directly. So OTA, it's very important to visibility to arrive in some specific market that they will never find you.

But you have to be smart as well and try that these people find you there and after came directly to your webpage so you can make scandal things in order to that they can see you but after they came and there is everyone your direct book. Yeah.

some little hacks, especially if visibility is being blocked by these OTAs, you got to find creative solutions to really put your name out there. And I think a lot of people will be very curious to find you directly to really understand what the property is outside of that OTA. So, you you mentioned that you're in 70 plus countries, you probably see so many different types of operational issues, technical issues when it comes to running a short term rental business, especially sitting

On the tech side, how should specifically Asian operators think about their tech stack, OTA distribution, whatnot?

So, I think it's the most exciting market because there is a lot of people coming, is a tourism tradition, very historical, and hotels are very important still right now. But every year, the percentage of vacation rental is growing, it's growing, and it's growing faster than in other places. So, it's an area where to start this kind of job is very important,

could grow very fast with a very good result. Of course, every country has different things, different needs. Talking about ⁓ technology, for example, it's important to know as well there. What is my objective? I want to grow very fast. I want to have specific listing, but with a good reservation, a good price. I want to have a checking, smooth checking without a person. So in the area, when we talk about technology,

You have a lot of things, PMS, RMS for pricing, self-checking, intelligence artificial for messaging and others and others. So it's important to know what is my goal, what is my target, what I want to do in two years, three years and choose the correct one.

Yeah, I think that's extremely important. So maybe on that note, what does Optrate do? And maybe you share with our list.

So we are not only one platform. So we have the PMS, of course, that for every country have different things. A lot of countries like Malaysia, now there is electronic invoice. So as a PMS, you need to have this. Other place you have to send to the police the information. We provide as well a website. So template website that saying what we to go back to what we were saying before, it's important to have your own website in order to have

direct preservation and of course the channel manager we connect where direct with the OTA's your preferred class of Airbnb, booking, BarBio and as well local like Traveloka, Ticket or Trip or others.

And so with that said, offering such a fantastic suite of tools to owners, what are some of the biggest mistakes you see some of these operators, hosts make with their day-to-day?

So probably the biggest one is to think that technology is something that can help only the big chain, the big property manager, the big hotel, because the cost of a person could be the same probably of the technology. And I completely do agree with this, because it's something that can help if you have 2,000 properties, but as well if you have 3 properties.

So, and technology is not expensive as well, right now it's very cheap. So the big mistake is to think that it's something just for big players and it's not something democratic for everyone. And today is something that everyone can use and can help really the way that we work to make the sector more professional.

And I think technology is something that a lot of people sleep on, especially if you're a smaller scale. I think someone in the room mentioned that, especially in Asia, because labor costs are so cheap, like so much let-in, people just throw a person at the problem instead of trying to resolve it at its core. And so I totally agree. think no matter what the size is, you

As well because this person can do a job that is more profitable for your company. if it's something that the machine can do for you, use the machine and the same person can do something good in the apartment, think on the design of the house or help to have more direct preservation. So you can use the person in the best way as possible, I guess.

No, definitely. And so kind of going back to this idea of West versus East and kind of how Asia is a very untapped growing market, we see the West side being quite mature, especially in the States where a lot of companies are acquiring proper management companies. And I'm sure you sit on the different integrations or flipping of different PMSs. And so I'm curious to hear your take in general.

What do you think the short-term rental industry is going to? Do you think we're going to see more consolidations in the future? Or do you think we'll see still of this hyperlocal, maybe a little bit more fragmented market because that's how you keep that flair and locality since everything is truly local when it comes to operations.

So it's true that consolidation is a fact, especially in the United States. But at the same time, for what I saw going in different countries, you have a lot of local companies, little companies that are still there and they work, and they work very well because they know the market. So probably the future will be a mix between every property manager will use some more famous, let's say global company for some part of the business,

and integrate with API with a local one for a specific need. So I think we will have the two roads at the same time. Some company will be bigger, bigger and bigger, and other one will stay there just for some specific needs of the specific market.

Got it. Okay, makes sense and I totally agree. What are some things that you're excited about for 2026 when it comes to the short-term rental industry? What are some things that you're bearish and bullish?

So, of course, 2025, especially the last six months, everybody's talking about artificial intelligence. Probably you have too many companies, too many tech things on this. But it's a fact that everything is changing right now. And it will change again faster than what we think. And probably in 2026, we will start to have different prices and services for different persons for the same house.

It's something controversial. What are your takes when, let's say, AI is able to recognize you might be a person that might book or convert more than someone else. And you typically have spent more money than someone else. How are your thoughts when it comes to pricing discrepancies with your own customer using the data that you

That's a good question. I'm a tech enthusiast. probably it will be that I will put up a price in the... I will say, I don't know, it's high season, I want this price like now. But after when it's low season or where I have space, I can say to the machine, I want this apartment booked so you can play and make that I will see a price and you will see a different price. So it will be depends on the moment of the year.

Probably.

Never say this, never say this. Big mistake.

My final question to you is, what are you excited most for at Octure? Like, are you building something new? What's coming in the future that you would like to share with us?

So first of all, we are opening the Asian market. That for us is very, important. As I told before, I really believe that this is the market that will grow more in the next two, three years. And secondly, all this part of technology that is growing and is going very...

different for everyone. want to say right now if you have with API, with OpenAPI, you can integrate different software and for what we saw, it's easy as well to make like a little custom software by your own self without as well if you are not ⁓ a tech engineer, you have a lot of program that can help you. So nobody, it will be software, you will buy a software and that's after everyone can customize like a car, let's say the software for my own. So I will use

You will use the same PMS but with other things because everybody works in a different way and everybody will be able to customize. So this is the direction we going right now.

Okay, that sounds really interesting. I'm excited to see more of that. Thank you so much.

Thank you to you, was a pleasure.

Jan so nice to have you on the Curious Concierge Podcast, and it's been great meeting you here at the conference.

It's been so nice meeting you.

me too and so tell me a little bit more about yourself like where you're from what brought you here and What you've been building?

Right. So, I mean, to all the people that don't know me, I'm Jan Sahagun. I come from Spain and I've built STR Tech Report. So, basically a website that will give all the tools that property management companies need or even host to scale their short-term rental businesses.

Wonderful.

click into that. Tell me more about this product. What have you built? Who's using it? And what sort of functionalities does it have?

Right. So as I mentioned before, I just build some sort of website, marketplace, directory, you can call it whatever you want, to centralize all the information that a host or a property management company would need to scale their business. And so it goes from a directory of tools, so ⁓ tech tools for the short-term rental space, a directory of people, influential people, and top voices in the space.

that regularly and very often talk about what's going on, it can be from regulations to technology to consolidation that is happening, etc. And also different text stacks, so different combinations of tools. We also have an AI on the website that you can chat with. It can advise you and recommend you different tools to compare to make informative decisions.

Who's using it right now? We just launched. It's very recent. We already have, I don't know, 80 followers or something on LinkedIn. A couple people have been using it. think I just added on the admin some analytics. So I've seen that we've had like 30 users in the past five days, which is already pretty exciting. I also had a company that posted on LinkedIn and reposted saying that they were waiting for this for long time. I met someone in Miami that was saying that

It's amazing that I built this and if I wouldn't have, he would have built it because he needed that when he started. But it's not only for people that are starting. I think it's for people that are also scaling or looking to change their tech stack because it's not working or they're stagnating and not scaling. And I've had these conversations all over and over again. And people are starting to go to the website and use it. And they see a lot of value in it. And it's fully free. So it's definitely something that I think is going to help a lot of people.

Fantastic. Well, I'm really excited to check it out. I think it's extremely helpful tool. I've seen it a little bit and I wish I had it, previously. It would have made the sourcing and due diligence a lot easier with that wealth of information that you guys provide all centralized on your directory. That said, what brought you into hospitality? Why the short-term rental space?

My dad is an air traffic controller and so we would get free tickets a long time ago before the subprime crisis. And so we traveled a lot and that's how I discovered hospitality. We were always staying at Airbnbs or homestays and stuff like that. And I've always been, since then, attracted to it.

I've done three masters, I didn't really know what I wanted to do with my life. I did investment banking and then I went to doing international business, entrepreneurship, many different things. And I just out of school, out of my third masters, I just found a job at a company called Bestie AI and I applied. I was applying at many other jobs at the same time. And there was an instant fit, both my passion for hospitality and also for tech and for sales. And that's how I ended up.

working in this space and I've been working for the past two years and I just love it. You know, I get to travel, to meet a lot of people. don't know, hospitality is just great, to be honest.

Well, I love how you finally found your passion. I've never met someone who has three masters. So I'm glad that you're here and that you've built something super exciting. Why don't you tell me a little bit more about some takeaways from this conference? We're in an environment where I think short-term rental landscape is evolving

and continue to grow especially compared to the West which I'm sure you're more familiar with. I'm curious to hear your take.

Well, my take from a personal perspective is that, as you just said, this is very fast-growing market in comparison to the West. People are very behind in terms of tech, but they are eager to adopt technology. So it's definitely an opportunity for my website, which is going to help these people do it in a better way and smarter way. So that's one of my key takeaways.

you they're behind that they're very uh... using very uh... manual systems so they be definitely need to embrace a and not to make more uh... on the other hand on the website i mentioned we're sharing about text acts tools and and the voices will soon enough contents uh... resources like uh... articles product guides and and and reviews it's a trap

And I think that's also super important for all these people because there's a lot of things out there that they don't know of because they're basically living their lives and just heads down grinding on their business. And they don't know about everything that is out there. And just having this little tool that you can just pop up on your phone and ask questions to an AI and he will show you and recommend you and you can read articles and stuff like that.

is definitely going to be very helpful for this market and I think that it can actually help this market grow way faster by avoiding this market to make mistakes that the other markets have probably done. that would be my takeaways.

What are some surprising lessons or conversations you've had with operators, owners that are looking for tools that obviously perhaps gave you this idea to start this directory? Because at the end of the day, researching these sort of tools is a little bit tough and you're always

uncertain if someone is outbidding someone in terms of Google Ads, you're placing higher, even though the correct tool for you specifically could be maybe on the second page of Google. So what are some things that you might have come across that not only inspired you to make this, but surprised you as well?

Okay, very good question Justin. I mean the first thing would be that as you just said, like some people might be sold solutions that are not really for their business. When you come to these conferences, this one might have been a smaller one, but when you go to a big one, there's a lot of vendors, right? And for a category like a PMS for example, there might be 15 vendors.

Every single vendor is just going to try to sell you their thing. And most of the time, from what I see, not a lot of people do consultative selling. they just ask you, how many listings do you have? If you have enough listings, they're just going to sell you their solution. And they're going to discredit all the solutions out there just to push their solution forward. And so you go to a conference as a property management company. And you get out of there. And your head is exploding. And you don't know what to do, because it seems like they're all the same.

pricing. But you might end up going with the cheapest solution that is not for you. So then you're losing money, right? Because then you're going to have to invest again in a migration and another solution. And you would have wasted so much time. You might have lost revenue in that because of the migration. So that was the first pain point that I encountered. I'm like, people need to compare things. And so I need to give them the tools to do so.

Because when you go to a conference, you just get a couple conversations, you take a couple notes, and that's it. So you don't have enough data to compare properly. So that's first thing. Another thing as well is that all these ecosystem has been built on the PMS. And it started as a channel management. And then the PMS was doing channel management and syncing calendars, et cetera. And they started doing also guest communications and so forth.

But we didn't have the same technology as we have now. And therefore, some other players emerged surrounding the PMS on top of it. And so property managers and hosts are juggling in between so many tools. And it's super overwhelming. And because of that, there is different categories in STR Tech and a lot of tools in every category. And so if you go to a conference and there's maybe just

one tool per category, you're just going to get every single product that there is. But you don't know that there are others, and you need to compare with the others before deciding what you're going to use. Because most of the time, the first solution that you're pitched about is not the solution for you. But these people don't know it, and also they don't have time for it. And so that's another reason why I did this, because it's so easy. You go to the website, you check the category, you see the different tools, and then you just schedule a call with each one of them, and you see. Or you just ask.

you know, our AI, you'll ask questions, you know, trying to see like what type of business you're running. And based on all the information that we have given it from all the conversations we've had with thousands of property managers, you will, you know, recommend your couple tools, always different ones, not only one, because you have to compare. You cannot just choose the first one. So that's the thing. And going back just to the Google metaphor that you mentioned,

Obviously on the website, you will see that there are some top picks that will rank higher. But I'm actually going to post today on LinkedIn so people will see. There will be a little side note. But a top pick doesn't mean it's the best tool. A top pick means that it's the most commonly used based on all the conversations that we have personally had with property managers across the 15 plus conferences that I've attended. So it's not because it's a top pick that you need to choose that.

do your due diligence and compare all the tools and see what's the best for you. Yeah.

Absolutely. All right. Well, I'm excited to see how owners use your website in the near future. Congratulations on your successes.

I'm super excited about AI. And I'm sorry, because I'm sure I'm not the first one to say this. Maybe some people are not that excited, and they might be scared, because it's scary. But I think that we're going to see a lot of new tools emerging that are going to be mind blowing. I don't know if the listeners will be very tech savvy, but I'm sure some will. And we've all seen OpenClaw.

Cloud, et cetera. I'm using it very often. And the things I'm capable to do with it are insane. I wouldn't have imagined anything like that in my whole life. I actually built this website by coding. I had two Python classes. Out of my three masters, none was computer science. So it's pretty crazy that I was able to build that on my own.

But what is insane is that I'm capable of doing crazy things with AI, so I'm sure that this same technology will be able to be applied to this industry. And so we're going to see things that we never imagined possible, but I think that AI is going to allow property management to become way more tech enabled, and I think that it will eventually become a tech category.

They won't be like, I mean, there will still be property managers, but they won't do as many things as they do now. They'll probably mostly focus on owners relations and the rest will be probably mostly automated with personalization at scale because AI will allow for that. And they will be able to actually, and that's what I'm excited about is that AI will take away the time that they're spending on low value added tasks to actually focus on the most important thing, which is hospitality and delivering great guest experiences.

in person and at the same time growing their portfolio with owners relations. So that's what I'm most excited about.

Well, I would love to see that day where essentially all that low value tasks as you said is automated and done and you don't really have to worry about a thing and you're absolutely right. It's keeping the connection and the relationship with the owner because at the end of the day, it's a service business and that is an asset that you're taking care of. Really, really cool insight there. Thank you so much, Jan, for joining.

For real, a real pleasure, like I cannot say in enough words how much I'm grateful for being here, to be honest. Absolutely! I love meeting you.

Absolutely, it's been a pleasure meeting you as well. Well, we'll see you soon.

Jake, so nice to have you on the Curious Concierge podcast. Welcome. Nice to meet you. Thank you. Jake is the founder of Erudite VR, which is a revenue management consulting practice based out of Indonesia. Jake, why don't you tell us a little bit more about yourself and what you do with Erudite?

Yeah, I do.

Yeah, absolutely. We are a revenue management and pricing consultancy and do it for you firm as well. So for folks that aren't too familiar with the actual phrase here, basically that means that we do pricing for you. We will manage your pricing. We will consult on your pricing. We will do anything and anything as it relates to pricing. We are complementary to a pricing tool. So we have like price labs and things like that, Wheelhouse, Beyond.

⁓ We actually sit on top of the tool and we decide to build those strategies for you. All that good stuff.

That's great. And so how many properties or geographically are places that you currently consult for?

So we primarily do service the US. We have about experience with over 900. We've touched over 900 properties across the US. But we have experience pretty much going worldwide. We are based in Indonesia. And Indonesia is a market that we take a look at quite a lot, especially that of Bali, just because that is the biggest short-term rental kind of market in Indonesia as a development.

Okay, well, let's double click on that. Bali is such a hot topic, especially in the short term rental industry. Villas, properties, vacation rentals are popping up on the daily. So from a pricing perspective, when it comes to supply and demand, like what's your general take on it?

Yeah, no, that's an interesting one. think pricing in Bali is really interesting at the moment just because there are a lot of people that are coming in and they are a little bit more tech savvy and there are people that tend to try and do things more old school. The kind of overreaching trends that I see about Bali is when it comes to pricing, not everybody is super tech savvy. So not a lot of folks are using your pricing tools. They're not doing a lot of dynamic pricing.

Where they are doing dynamic pricing, they'll do it in the kind of like last minute booking window. So I would say 30 to 60 days. And anything outside of 60 days, they're using static pricing where it's just really, really high. And they result to something that's a little bit more similar to that of a hotel trend. So they'll do kind of package deals, try and sell a bunch off, maybe for like midterm stays or something like that. And then in the last minute, that's when they actually start to try and book out transients. So it's a little bit more like hotels.

That is very interesting because Asia unlike the know, Western Hemisphere Western Hemisphere can expect a lot of like domestic travel and so that your booking window Tense it or can be a little bit shorter than you know two weeks, right? But for example places like Bali even Phuket or the islands around the Philippines People plan for that right? You're taking a plane

and so it's interesting to hear that folks are kind of squeezing it to the last thirty days or or kind of last booking window on despite the fact that typically booking windows could be more than a month long

No, absolutely. When you are going into Bali, you do have to fly in. And because you have to fly in, that does mean that people are going to be planning for it. Bali is also a really interesting place because with folks that are not from Bali, they're not the locals, trying to create businesses as well, they're taking the learnings that they have from the Western hemisphere. And they're coming into Bali, and they're going in with, for example, a pricing tool right off the gate.

PMS right off the gate even though they might have just one property and they might not need it. So the pricing structure in Valley is really all over the place.

And so I'm curious now, we kind of go from a macro point of view outside of Bali, just kind of in the general sense of Asia. What's your take with owners? What's the relationship between owners and their pricing strategies? I think here in Bangkok at this conference, I've come to learn

What has that been in terms of preparing the rest of the Asian market? To be honest, think that push and pull happens pretty much everywhere in the world, to be honest with you. Because the one thing that is really interesting about revenue management, we spoke about this at the panel the other day, is that with revenue management, you are heavily reliant on technology, but you're also heavily reliant on the people that run the technology. No tech tool, no AI actually is in a place where it can replace a revenue manager.

the revenue manager still has to sit on top of the tech tools and the AI and things like that. That's just an enablement function for everybody to do things a lot more efficiently. But in the kind of greater landscape of Asia, I find that people are more so doing things manually as if the education around pricing tools just isn't at a place where it needs to be. So I feel that folks would still be willing to throw personnel onto pricing with a pricing tool.

just potentially needed to know how to actually use it a little bit better.

So whether

that personnel actually is trained or skill enough to use that data. You have the data, but can you actually play around in using it? So what are some trends that you're seeing in general when it comes to the Asia short-term rental market?

Absolutely.

So I feel that people are more and more willing to actually research these things a little bit more. I do find that there are more and more conversations I'm having, especially coming out of Bali, around things like pricing. And I do feel like people are more willing to just kind of investigate how to change their processes a little bit. I think a lot of what the biggest concerns are as a movement is regulations. So they're wondering, how do we fight

know, current landscape of pricing being out of control just because there are so many different players at the moment and they are unregulated with something like a pricing tool, right? How can we trust any of the data that we've had in the past? Well, you know, if we're thinking about after the COVID boom and everybody was coming to Bali, but now things are getting to the point where the supply and demand curves are just a little bit crazy, you know, there's a little bit of this question in people's heads around how do we actually do this?

considering the data, considering the current landscape, and how do we actually move forward, be it with tech or not.

Okay, very interesting. I think, you know, on that topic of tech, there's a huge push in AI, especially in this space. I'm curious to hear your thoughts because from my perspective, think when you can use AI to get informed decisions with your pricing, pricing tools use AI to create fantastic data reports and data, you know, to showcase data to owners and operators.

However, I think there's a misunderstanding that AI can do your pricing for you. Pricing, at the end of the day, still does require someone to really oversee that final thing that you're putting out to the world. So what has that relationship been? What sort of conversations you're seeing with owners? And what's your take when people have that mindset?

Yeah, no, this is really interesting. I actually have a couple of folks that do come to me and ask me, could I just upload a bunch of my CSV reports onto like Chad GPT or something and will it be able to do my revenue management for me? Can I just have an AI chatbot or an LLM or something like that just take over my actual revenue management? My answer to that has always been no. Not at its current stance. I think back to how Salesforce let go of a lot of people.

in favor of AI and then their CEO having come out recently and saying that they actually regret it because they didn't realize that AI is not as far along as they thought they would be. But when it comes to the hospitality space, I think it is a little bit more inherent. The things that we do in the hospitality space, especially in the SDR space here, is inherently human. We are, all of us, really selling a service.

⁓ The folks that run properties, are not just selling a house for people to sleep in. They're selling an experience. They're selling a memory. For us on the revenue management side, we do not just sell you our service and pricing. We are selling you the feeling of trust. We are selling you the feeling of ensuring that your prices are always taken care of and that we will take care of your properties in the same way that you do.

⁓ That is not something that can be taken care of with AI. And I think there is a lot of hesitation towards that. I think that in our space especially, you we'll have people that are chatting back to our guest queries and things like that and asking, this AI? There is an inherent distrust with a lot of guests and with a lot of people. So, yes, I think of it as an enablement factor and I don't think that anybody should be worried about it being, you know, just something for your efficiency and to enable you to do better. But...

I do not think that it is at the place where it will completely take over someone who has the brain of a revenue manager. I think that is one of the most beautiful things. is someone with the creative thinking, with the analytical thinking, the person that understands when to inject a little bit of, let me look at some charts and then let me think outside the box to understand why this might be happening.

Right, right. And if you're missing that brain part, definitely come to Jake at Erudite VR. My final question to you is, ⁓ what are you excited about for 2026 when it comes to the short-term rental industry as well as for your business?

Yeah, for 2026, I'm excited to really see a lot more growth in the space. I think having worked globally and having seen folks in different kind of sectors of the hemisphere here, seeing where the growth is in the likes of the Americas and the States and seeing Australia coming not too far up behind here, definitely starting to catch up and Asia starting to get on game as well.

I'm really excited to see how growth can really enable us all to get connected and to kind of follow the right or the same kind of processes. I'm excited to see more regulations. You know, I come to Thailand really quite often. I love Thailand. It's my favorite country in the world. But I have been victim to like the fake Airbnbs and things like that here as well. So I'm excited to see regulations across all of Southeast Asia.

with the caveat, of course, to help us and not hinder us. I don't want the conversation to be over regulation or anything like that. But I'm also really excited for the growth of EruditeVR and where we can start talking to people and educating people. That's really what I'm very passionate about is educating people on all things pricing, whether that means understanding how to build your targets and budgets and being able to better track whether or not you actually are performing to profit or not.

Wonderful. I'm excited for you. And you're right. I think there needs to be a little bit more policy regulations in place, creating that framework so that we don't see a backtrack of issues similar to maybe what we're seeing in Bali in some areas and really defining what short term rentals can be in certain markets to then let it flourish. So I'm excited for that. Jake, so nice to have you on. Appreciate it. Nice to meet you.

Thank you. Thank you very much.