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037 Listening Like Water_ Depth and Connection As Part of The Healing Process _ Margot Rossi
Episode 3719th June 2018 • Qiological Podcast • Michael Max
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We are trained to know a lot about a person from looking and touching. And while we have our “10 questions” or other interviewing checklists, there is a lot that comes from the interview and relationship with the patient that can help us to better understand them and hopefully be of service to them as well.

In this conversation we take a look into how the connection we cultivate with our patients can help not only to inform our clinical thinking and treatment, but become an essential part of the therapeutic process as well. 

Listen in for a discussion on the importance of rapport, why judging our patients is not helpful (but we do it all the time), the power of gaining comfort with uncertainty, and a few gems from the Simple Questions and Classic of The Virtuous Way

Head on over to the show notes page for more information about this episode and for links to the resources discussed in the interview. 

Transcripts

Michael Max:

The medicine of east Asia is based on a science that does not

Michael Max:

hold itself separate from the phenomenon that it seeks to understand our

Michael Max:

medicine did not grow out of Petri dish experimentation, or double blind studies.

Michael Max:

It arose from observing nature and our part in it east Asian medicine evolves not

Michael Max:

from the examination of dead structures, but rather from living systems with their

Michael Max:

complex mutually entangled interactions.

Michael Max:

Welcome to qiological.

Michael Max:

I'm Michael max, the host of this podcast that goes in depth on

Michael Max:

issues, pertinent to practitioners and students of east Asian medicine.

Michael Max:

Dialogue and discussion have always been elemental to Chinese

Michael Max:

and other east Asian medicines.

Michael Max:

Listen into these conversations with experienced practitioners that go deep

Michael Max:

into how this ancient medicine is alive and unfolding in the modern clinic.

Michael Max:

We are trained to know a lot about a person from looking into.

Michael Max:

And while we have our 10 questions or other interviewing checklists, there's

Michael Max:

a lot that can come from an interview in relationship with the patient that can

Michael Max:

help us to better understand them and hopefully be of service to them as well.

Michael Max:

On the other end of the microphone today, I've got Margo Rossi.

Michael Max:

I've known Margo for as long as I've known about acupuncture, because

Michael Max:

Margo was the first person to ever put an acupuncture needle into me.

Michael Max:

We talk from time to time about our practices.

Michael Max:

And one of the reoccurring topics that comes up is about the kinds of

Michael Max:

connections that get created in our clinic and with our patients that

Michael Max:

allows us to better understand our patients from their own point of view.

Michael Max:

In today's discussion, we are circling around how the connection with our

Michael Max:

patients and the information we get from our exchanges with them.

Michael Max:

Can help to inform our clinical iron hand.

Michael Max:

I always enjoy my conversations with Margo and I once tried to interview

Michael Max:

her for everyday acupuncture a few years ago, but she turned the

Michael Max:

microphone back on me at that time.

Michael Max:

What can I say?

Michael Max:

That's Margot for you?

Michael Max:

It's episode 15, by the way, if you're interested, just pop over to everyday

Michael Max:

acupuncture podcast, you can listen to it.

Michael Max:

Anyway, today I'm delighted to be sitting down with a cup of tea across

Michael Max:

the space of 12 times zones with Margo and sharing our conversation with you.

Michael Max:

Let's see what we get into here today.

Michael Max:

Margo.

Michael Max:

Welcome to qiological.

Margot Rossi:

Hi, Michael max in

Michael Max:

Taiwan.

Michael Max:

Yeah.

Michael Max:

This, this show is coming to you live on tape from Taiwan, Taiwan, Taiwan,

Michael Max:

actually lower part of the island.

Michael Max:

So I, you know, you might hear some background scooters and stuff like that.

Michael Max:

Um, I've tried to get into a quiet place, but uh, it's Taiwan, baby.

Margot Rossi:

Yeah, over here.

Margot Rossi:

You'll just hear some backyard.

Margot Rossi:

But

Michael Max:

all right, well, I've got Margot Rossi with me here today, and I've

Michael Max:

known Margo for as long as I've known about acupuncture, because Margaret Rossi

Michael Max:

was actually the first person to ever stick an acupuncture needle into me.

Michael Max:

Like, I don't know, 25, 26 years ago.

Margot Rossi:

Yeah.

Margot Rossi:

I think that's my only claim to fame, Michael.

Michael Max:

Well, I think you're stuck in acupuncture and the

Michael Max:

color me you've been doing it for as long as you've been doing it.

Margot Rossi:

No, that, that I, that I treated you.

Margot Rossi:

You're in my book.

Margot Rossi:

You're a famous person.

Margot Rossi:

So

Michael Max:

I bring my book.

Michael Max:

You're the famous person.

Michael Max:

That's why you're on the show.

Michael Max:

You know, one of the things I really remember from long ago is

Michael Max:

you're not just getting treated with needles and such, but.

Michael Max:

The way that I was listened to attended, to cared for the way that I was spoken

Michael Max:

through the way that I was invited into a conversation about, you know, not

Michael Max:

just my health problem, but who I was.

Michael Max:

And so one of the things I wanted to talk with you about today is, is because, uh, I

Michael Max:

mean that was something that's been a part of acupuncture for me from the get go.

Michael Max:

And I always think about the way that you used, let's call it the

Michael Max:

relationship, the connection with the patient as a way of getting

Michael Max:

information so that you knew how to help.

Michael Max:

You know, I mean, we learn about tongue.

Michael Max:

We learned about Paul, especially here in Asia.

Michael Max:

If someone finds out that you're a Chinese medicine practitioner,

Michael Max:

they stick their wrist out.

Michael Max:

Like, you know, tell me who I am, which is, you know, I mean, there's a lot that

Michael Max:

we can get, but I don't want to talk with you about what you get from being with.

Margot Rossi:

Well that I think that is the most nourishing aspect of the work

Margot Rossi:

that we do for me is that moment of being in relationship with someone, you know,

Margot Rossi:

I'm not a great pulse diagnostician.

Margot Rossi:

I'm happy to admit that.

Margot Rossi:

And I admire my colleagues who are really good at that.

Margot Rossi:

Um, I've got, you know, all those diagnostic skills.

Margot Rossi:

I understand them.

Margot Rossi:

And I understand the strategies of our medicine pretty well, and

Margot Rossi:

that's a great framework to have.

Margot Rossi:

Uh, but I definitely rely the most in my practice on my relationship that

Margot Rossi:

I have with my patient during that interview process, that's probably where

Margot Rossi:

I get the lion's share of information.

Margot Rossi:

Um, my treatment will come to me in that moment.

Margot Rossi:

I'll know exactly what I want to do.

Margot Rossi:

And then when I get into the treatment room with the patient, I have mostly.

Margot Rossi:

Often do check the pulse.

Margot Rossi:

I do look at the tongue.

Margot Rossi:

I often do hard diagnosis as well, but sometimes I don't sometimes I just

Margot Rossi:

let all that go and just go with what came to me in the interview process.

Margot Rossi:

And that's probably the thing I most passionately like to

Margot Rossi:

share with acupuncture students.

Margot Rossi:

I don't know if you know this, but, um, since 2004, I was teaching at Dallas

Margot Rossi:

traditions college of, uh, Chinese medical arts in Asheville, North Carolina.

Margot Rossi:

And I started there when the school started and I taught everything.

Margot Rossi:

I taught Chinese medicine theory at times.

Margot Rossi:

Five elements.

Margot Rossi:

I taught hard diagnosis.

Margot Rossi:

Um, uh, the main thing that they kept calling me back for was to teach

Margot Rossi:

needling techniques and the adjunct techniques, which of course is profound.

Margot Rossi:

That's a profound study to teach someone else how to do.

Margot Rossi:

Uh, so what I started sneaking into that class would needling techniques,

Margot Rossi:

you know, talking about the link shoe and talking about the, the comport of

Margot Rossi:

the practitioner or the relationship that you're having with the needle,

Margot Rossi:

inserting the needle, et cetera.

Margot Rossi:

And then of course all the clean needle technique that goes along with

Margot Rossi:

that and the anatomy and the, uh, function and indication of the points.

Margot Rossi:

And then, you know, the technique that you're actually using on the

Margot Rossi:

needle lifting and thrusting, if you're working on the divergent

Margot Rossi:

channels, here's the technique.

Margot Rossi:

If you're working on the sinew channels, here's the technique, et cetera.

Margot Rossi:

Uh, but what I started sneaking into that was the, the treasure

Margot Rossi:

and the preciousness of creating a relationship with your patient.

Margot Rossi:

And of course, for students, that's the most terrifying part of working with

Margot Rossi:

someone, you know, in those first couple of years is how do you sit in a room

Margot Rossi:

with someone and nurture this intimacy?

Margot Rossi:

How do you know when not to go forward in that?

Margot Rossi:

How do you even establish rapport with someone we don't have?

Margot Rossi:

We don't learn those skills in school.

Margot Rossi:

It's just not something that we get in America is how to

Margot Rossi:

build rapport with someone.

Margot Rossi:

Unless you take a, you know, a neuro-linguistic programming course, you

Margot Rossi:

won't, we just don't learn that stuff.

Michael Max:

Or maybe unless you learn psychotherapy or, you know,

Michael Max:

Those particular or, you know, even really good sales training.

Margot Rossi:

Well, they, they use neuro-linguistic programming for sure.

Michael Max:

Yeah.

Michael Max:

It's just part of the way humans naturally effectively communicate, right?

Margot Rossi:

Yes, yes, yes, absolutely.

Margot Rossi:

It's if you're paying attention, you don't need to have those classes, you know,

Margot Rossi:

that we get most in rapport with people, with whom we feel like we're similar,

Margot Rossi:

you know, if there's something familiar.

Margot Rossi:

Yeah.

Margot Rossi:

If you're paying attention.

Margot Rossi:

So

Michael Max:

tell us about paying attention.

Margot Rossi:

Uh,

Michael Max:

I hear your evil laugh.

Margot Rossi:

Well, can I back up a little bit and just, um, cause I, again,

Margot Rossi:

just as I'm not, I don't pride myself on being a great pulse diagnostician.

Margot Rossi:

Uh, I'm not a scholar either.

Margot Rossi:

Though, I though I certainly have read some chapters out of

Margot Rossi:

the link shoe and the SU one.

Margot Rossi:

I can't say that I know these things, but, um, there are, there are a couple

Margot Rossi:

of chapters out of the doubted Ching that speak to this and certainly in

Margot Rossi:

the Suwon and the link shoe, uh, they talk about this importance of the

Margot Rossi:

relationship between the practitioner and the patient as being the key

Margot Rossi:

to your diagnosis, to understanding what's happening for this other person.

Margot Rossi:

And of course that influences your treatment, but you know

Margot Rossi:

how there's that saying?

Margot Rossi:

The Dow B got the one and the one, one began at the two and then

Margot Rossi:

the two, we got the three and the three, we got the 10,000 things.

Margot Rossi:

Yeah.

Michael Max:

The three caused all the mistress.

Margot Rossi:

Yeah.

Margot Rossi:

Well, of course, when I first studied that, I thought it was kind of like the.

Margot Rossi:

The Tootsie roll, pop, like how many licks does it take to

Margot Rossi:

get to the center of the tips?

Margot Rossi:

You know, 1, 2, 3, you know, the world may never know.

Margot Rossi:

I just thought they kind of gave up, you know, the Sage is just

Margot Rossi:

gave up at three and said, okay.

Margot Rossi:

And then everything else comes after that, but whatever.

Margot Rossi:

Yeah.

Margot Rossi:

But if you think about it, you've got the Dow and then you have the

Margot Rossi:

yin and the young, just like having an earth patient practitioner and

Margot Rossi:

then between them is created this other thing, this third thing.

Margot Rossi:

And that third thing of course is the relationship that you have.

Margot Rossi:

So, yeah.

Margot Rossi:

And from that relationship, you know, if you can really connect with someone, the

Margot Rossi:

possibilities are, I'm assuming infinite.

Margot Rossi:

Of where you can go together, what you can do, how things can change,

Margot Rossi:

what you can create from that, that triad of me, you and our relationship.

Margot Rossi:

So when we were first learning that, that just caught me on fire, like,

Margot Rossi:

oh, that's really what it's about.

Margot Rossi:

Is there really, it has nothing to do with, uh, my diagnosis.

Margot Rossi:

It has nothing to do with where I put the needle.

Margot Rossi:

It has nothing to do with my technique.

Margot Rossi:

It has everything to do with my relationship.

Margot Rossi:

There are our relationship that we're creating together.

Margot Rossi:

And when I was working with you, Michael, I think I've shared this

Margot Rossi:

with you once upon a time when we were having a conversation that I apologize

Margot Rossi:

to my supervisor in student clinic, because I was always running late

Margot Rossi:

because I was talking to my patients.

Margot Rossi:

One day I came out of the room and it was with you, you had had, um,

Margot Rossi:

something profound happened while you were having the treatment and it touched

Margot Rossi:

you deeply and it was unsettling.

Margot Rossi:

And so we talked for a while when I came out of the room,

Margot Rossi:

I apologize to my supervisor.

Margot Rossi:

And he said, no, this is, this is a cornerstone of Chinese medicine.

Margot Rossi:

Of course this was Dr.

Margot Rossi:

Young.

Margot Rossi:

I don't know if you remember him to him.

Margot Rossi:

That was paramount.

Margot Rossi:

That relationship, that talking to the, talking with the patient

Margot Rossi:

listening and responding whisky.

Margot Rossi:

So he didn't, he didn't mind at all that I was late.

Margot Rossi:

It was, and that was a real pivotal moment for me, because I was so excited

Margot Rossi:

about this idea of, I think Lani.

Margot Rossi:

Oh my gosh, I'm going to say something in Chinese now.

Margot Rossi:

And you're in Taiwan, big Lani, Jarrett calls it, the.

Margot Rossi:

The she, the, um, that's what's happening between the practitioner on the patient.

Margot Rossi:

That relationship is like an infusion of tea leaves and water.

Margot Rossi:

So you have the water and you have the tea leaf, and then you have

Margot Rossi:

this infusion and you get the tea from that, which of course is very

Margot Rossi:

therapeutic and delicious and delicious.

Michael Max:

Yeah.

Michael Max:

Yeah.

Michael Max:

And it speaks to kind of an alchemical thing too.

Michael Max:

I mean, when you talk about making tea, you've got water,

Michael Max:

you've got fire, you've got heat.

Michael Max:

You've got, you know, something melding with something else.

Margot Rossi:

Yeah.

Margot Rossi:

Yeah.

Margot Rossi:

And I'm coming back since you mentioned the water that's that was another,

Margot Rossi:

that was another piece out of the doubted Ching that really caught me.

Margot Rossi:

I think the chapter.

Margot Rossi:

Eight speaks about being like water, which is something, um, that my

Margot Rossi:

beloved teacher, Jeffrey Yuen off often talks about is to be like water.

Margot Rossi:

That that's the ultimate because the water can go into any space and it goes

Margot Rossi:

where most people might not want to go.

Margot Rossi:

And to me, that's, that's also what we want to do in this relationship in the

Margot Rossi:

clinic is to be able to infuse into places that may be unconscious for our patients.

Margot Rossi:

Maybe even

Michael Max:

they're often really unconscious.

Margot Rossi:

Yeah.

Margot Rossi:

So that it

Michael Max:

might be partly why they're there.

Michael Max:

There's this thing that they're not attending to.

Michael Max:

And now they've got these.

Margot Rossi:

Yes.

Margot Rossi:

And of course we can't solve a problem at the same level of the problem.

Margot Rossi:

So if, if something is going on the subconscious and we're don't have

Margot Rossi:

any awareness of it, we really are kind of limited and changing it.

Margot Rossi:

I might be able to, uh, you know, give an herbal formula or do a treatment.

Margot Rossi:

Um, but it's not until that issue becomes bubbles up into consciousness.

Margot Rossi:

I think that it can really start to shift that, that personal actually start to

Margot Rossi:

change their lifestyle or start to change their beliefs or their thoughts or their

Margot Rossi:

attitude or the things that really are going to make that transformation happen.

Margot Rossi:

So being able to communicate with that subconscious is really key and

Margot Rossi:

we can do that through certain skills.

Margot Rossi:

And that's what I like to share with my students are what are

Margot Rossi:

those rapport building skills that you can take into clinic?

Margot Rossi:

And use so that you can create a link between yourself and the consciousness

Margot Rossi:

and the subconscious of your patient.

Margot Rossi:

And then once you go there, once you, once you move like water into those

Margot Rossi:

places, then you can draw things out so that they can have an awareness of them

Margot Rossi:

and things can really start to change.

Margot Rossi:

Does that make sense?

Michael Max:

Yes.

Michael Max:

Yes.

Michael Max:

And, and, and the way that you're talking about water seeping into the

Michael Max:

cracks and going to the lowest levels and, you know, seeping down, down,

Michael Max:

down, I find this happens in clinic.

Michael Max:

A lot, people come in with something and they're not even sure they

Michael Max:

should say something about it.

Michael Max:

Yeah.

Michael Max:

And sometimes actually they don't want to say anything about it.

Michael Max:

They're hoping they can get by without doing.

Michael Max:

Right.

Michael Max:

So there's that element of respect that sometimes we have to give people that

Michael Max:

they're not ready to say something.

Michael Max:

Yes.

Michael Max:

But there's areas of life.

Michael Max:

And this is my experience as well, both personal and in clinic, where

Michael Max:

if we can inhabit with some awareness what's happening in our life,

Michael Max:

we can do something about that.

Michael Max:

Yes, absolutely.

Michael Max:

And even if it's something we can't do anything about, even if it's like

Michael Max:

a stage four cancer and you're dying well, inhabiting stage four cancer

Michael Max:

while you're dying is different than not inhabiting stage four cancer while you're

Margot Rossi:

time.

Margot Rossi:

Yes, yes.

Margot Rossi:

Yeah.

Michael Max:

Right there may not be a cure, but there can be healing.

Margot Rossi:

Absolutely.

Margot Rossi:

Yeah.

Margot Rossi:

I think the Sioux one talks about that as the difference

Margot Rossi:

between death and perishing.

Michael Max:

Ooh.

Michael Max:

Wow.

Michael Max:

Well, do you know, what, do you know what Sue number that is the

Michael Max:

difference between death and perishing?

Michael Max:

Holy smokes,

Margot Rossi:

Margaret Ross.

Margot Rossi:

I could look it up.

Margot Rossi:

Yeah.

Michael Max:

If you could look it up, I'd like to have it.

Michael Max:

Okay.

Michael Max:

Yeah.

Michael Max:

Um, so yes, that, I mean, that does make sense.

Michael Max:

Yeah.

Michael Max:

I don't want to jump too far ahead, but I do want to come back

Michael Max:

and talk about treating things unconsciously, um, when it's time to

Michael Max:

treat unconsciously and, and treat unconsciously when it's time to do that.

Michael Max:

But before we do talk to us a bit about rapport and talk to us a bit

Michael Max:

about how it is that you seem to listen people into a, into a place where

Michael Max:

you know what to do, and maybe they even know about what they need to do.

Margot Rossi:

Oh, absolutely.

Margot Rossi:

I think we have phenomenal intelligence, innate intelligence, and it's just

Margot Rossi:

sometimes gets covered up by again, our, our beliefs and thoughts.

Margot Rossi:

And when you start peeling away, those layers, it it's, self-eval.

Margot Rossi:

What one can do.

Margot Rossi:

It's really common sense, which is what I love about Chinese medicine,

Margot Rossi:

the basis in common sense as profound.

Margot Rossi:

Um, so as far as rapport, basically, what we're trying to

Margot Rossi:

do is meet another where they are.

Margot Rossi:

So I can't, you know, if let's, uh, let me think of, I'm not think of a patient.

Margot Rossi:

This is somebody who I just adore.

Margot Rossi:

I adore all my patients, but I especially adore this person.

Margot Rossi:

He's over 400 pounds.

Margot Rossi:

He has diabetes, he's had kidney cancer, he loves sugar and he loves fatty foods.

Margot Rossi:

So, you know, the first time he comes in, I could look at his labs.

Margot Rossi:

I could obviously see that there are things out of balance in his

Margot Rossi:

life, from what he was telling me and just visually looking at his

Margot Rossi:

complexion and you know, his body mass.

Margot Rossi:

Um, and I could have said to him, Hey, you know what?

Margot Rossi:

You really need to change your diet.

Margot Rossi:

That would be a great place to start.

Margot Rossi:

Well, if I don't have rapport with this person, I might as well say,

Margot Rossi:

could you fly to the moon tomorrow?

Margot Rossi:

Because that would really help you.

Margot Rossi:

It doesn't land and it won't stick.

Margot Rossi:

And it, it, it may not make sense, make sense, and it might even shut

Margot Rossi:

down, uh, whatever rapport we did have.

Margot Rossi:

So the key to these rapport practices is how can I make myself more like you?

Margot Rossi:

And as I live more like you, I come to understand you in a different way,

Margot Rossi:

free of my judgements, perhaps free of some construct of what's good and bad.

Margot Rossi:

And let me just be you and see what that's like.

Margot Rossi:

So I'll give you an example of what you can do.

Margot Rossi:

This is something that I, I share with my students and have them practice.

Margot Rossi:

Uh, so I talk really fast like this, and I ran out, I've read fiddly.

Margot Rossi:

I don't know that I'm telling you that starting . I can

Margot Rossi:

start to talk like that too.

Margot Rossi:

I mean, I'm not going to be, uh, very obvious about it, but I might start to

Margot Rossi:

increase the rate at which I'm speaking.

Margot Rossi:

So I start to match your rate of speaking, and then maybe I'll start to

Margot Rossi:

speak a little bit faster and at the end of my sentence and what you might

Margot Rossi:

notice, if you do that, if you start matching the speed with which a person

Margot Rossi:

talks or the volume with which they talk, or the cadence with which they

Margot Rossi:

talk, they're going to start to relax.

Margot Rossi:

So try it out while you're there in Taiwan, you know, when you're going

Margot Rossi:

out to eat breakfast or just start to match the voice of your waiter,

Michael Max:

you know, it's funny, you should mention that when I'm here in

Michael Max:

Taiwan, I kind of do that naturally.

Michael Max:

Cause I'm trying to get my language down.

Michael Max:

And so I mimicked people a lot.

Michael Max:

Yeah.

Michael Max:

And that's, and that's, and that's partly how I learn.

Margot Rossi:

Yeah.

Margot Rossi:

So you get into rapport with them.

Margot Rossi:

You can start to learn from them better.

Margot Rossi:

You get in rapport with them, they open up to you more.

Margot Rossi:

They're willing to talk to you.

Margot Rossi:

So, uh, that's one simple thing that you can do.

Margot Rossi:

Yeah.

Michael Max:

I'm thinking of a couple of patients of mine and theirs.

Michael Max:

I'm thinking one guy in particular and every time he comes in, we

Michael Max:

just, we does not know that.

Michael Max:

I mean, we, we, we fall into this way of talking.

Michael Max:

We're like brothers, And it's always a delight to see this cat.

Michael Max:

Right.

Michael Max:

And I think it's because we're naturally, it's not that I'm trying to get into

Michael Max:

rapport with this, with this guy, but we just naturally fall into it.

Michael Max:

And we, and we speak a kind of way.

Michael Max:

And there's a kind of language that we use and there, and I found that

Michael Max:

there is other folks often what happens is I end up feeling like,

Michael Max:

oh, I don't really like this person.

Michael Max:

Or maybe, you know, or if I'm having a bad day, you know, they don't like me.

Michael Max:

I'm feeling insecure.

Michael Max:

It doesn't matter which one it occurs to me.

Michael Max:

Their way of speaking is I find, I it's like walking on very uneven ground.

Michael Max:

It's re I just can't settle into the connection.

Michael Max:

And I hadn't thought about it as trying, well, it brings some

Michael Max:

mindfulness to, can I just let go of me?

Michael Max:

Not completely, but enough to kind of be them in the way that they come here.

Margot Rossi:

Exactly.

Margot Rossi:

It's quite profound and you can do the same with breathing.

Margot Rossi:

If they breathe shallowly or they breathe quickly or they breathe

Margot Rossi:

deeply or slowly, you can match your breathing rate and location with

Margot Rossi:

their, so while they're talking to you, you can breathe out because

Margot Rossi:

they're breathing out at the same time.

Margot Rossi:

Um, that's really, that's, that's a very powerful just to match someone's breathing

Michael Max:

well, just to attend to somebody just to attend to another person

Michael Max:

enough to notice, how are they breathing?

Margot Rossi:

Yes.

Margot Rossi:

Yeah.

Margot Rossi:

Blinking as another thing, if you know, some people blink rapidly and

Margot Rossi:

frequently and others don't so matching their blinking, or if they I'm Italian,

Margot Rossi:

I use my hands a lot when I talk.

Margot Rossi:

So if I'm with someone who uses their hands a lot, I feel really comfortable.

Margot Rossi:

It's like, oh, I, I get you.

Margot Rossi:

There's a, there's a, there's a subconscious meeting of the minds there.

Margot Rossi:

Yeah.

Margot Rossi:

And then the other really powerful thing for building rapport is to listen

Margot Rossi:

to the words that your patient uses.

Margot Rossi:

You can even notice where they move their eyes.

Margot Rossi:

When they're talking.

Margot Rossi:

Some of us look up a lot.

Margot Rossi:

Sometimes I look up so, so strongly that people will look where I'm looking

Margot Rossi:

because they think I'm seeing something.

Margot Rossi:

But it's, it's really just the way I'm accessing thoughts.

Margot Rossi:

In my mind.

Margot Rossi:

Some people look more side to side at the level of the ears.

Margot Rossi:

Other people look down.

Margot Rossi:

And so each of those ranges where you put your eyes, if you look up, it kind of

Margot Rossi:

belies that you're a very visual person.

Margot Rossi:

If you look more side to side level with your ears, it might indicate

Margot Rossi:

that you're more of an auditory learner or you experienced the world

Margot Rossi:

most clearly through its sounds.

Margot Rossi:

And then if you look down with just with your eyeballs, maybe not with your

Margot Rossi:

head, that indicates you're kind of more of a somatic kinesthetic feeling.

Margot Rossi:

That's how you make your way through the world is through how you feel.

Margot Rossi:

So if you notice where their eyes are placed, when they're talking, you can

Margot Rossi:

start using words that reflect that.

Margot Rossi:

So if I have a patient who's clearly very visually oriented, I might use

Margot Rossi:

words like, oh, I see what you mean.

Margot Rossi:

I can really visualize what you're saying.

Margot Rossi:

I can imagine that in my mind, whereas if they're, if they're more of, um,

Margot Rossi:

kinesthetic person, then I'll match my language to that and say, uh,

Margot Rossi:

dude, I really feel you on that.

Margot Rossi:

I, I get it.

Margot Rossi:

That's the God I, you know, and I might, I might put my hand on my body somewhere,

Margot Rossi:

like on my belly or on my chest.

Margot Rossi:

And just say, I really feel that I can really sense that how that might be,

Margot Rossi:

you know, and these are all just really small ways of communicating with their

Margot Rossi:

unconscious mind, getting out of your own ego and not holding fast to your world,

Margot Rossi:

but to really seep like water into theirs.

Margot Rossi:

And then of course, just like water and something goes into solution in

Margot Rossi:

the water and then the water can carry.

Margot Rossi:

You know, it'll can move that substance somewhere else

Margot Rossi:

because it's now in solution.

Margot Rossi:

And then the medicine that we have to give can really be received.

Margot Rossi:

If it's appropriate for that person, they have a better chance

Margot Rossi:

of utilizing what we've got to give.

Margot Rossi:

Not that they have to, and not that they will, but the chances

Margot Rossi:

are higher when you're in rapport.

Michael Max:

How does this inform a diagnosis or a treatment you were

Michael Max:

saying that you don't particularly pay a lot of attention to the polls?

Michael Max:

You get more out of the relationship.

Michael Max:

So how does, how does this rapport and how does, what comes out of it

Michael Max:

help you to go, oh, we're gonna, we're going to use this direction.

Margot Rossi:

Yeah.

Margot Rossi:

So let's say, um, this is one of my favorites actually.

Margot Rossi:

And it's, it was what my acupuncturist.

Margot Rossi:

Did for me, she, she too has studied some neuro-linguistic programming

Margot Rossi:

and she's very astute that way.

Margot Rossi:

I had gone to her after oh boy.

Margot Rossi:

Um, it was after I had decided to stop teaching at the college.

Margot Rossi:

And that was a really hard decision for me because I, I loved being with the students

Margot Rossi:

and I really loved the school and I Revere my teacher and it was, it was just hard

Margot Rossi:

to kind of let go of that community.

Margot Rossi:

So I wanted to see her and I was telling her just kind of the ravages

Margot Rossi:

of, of that job and how I had done it, you know, for 13 years.

Margot Rossi:

And, um, she said he knew what it sounds like.

Margot Rossi:

It sounds like you need to take a walk on the veranda.

Margot Rossi:

It's an acupuncture point.

Margot Rossi:

And so she needled that point for me.

Margot Rossi:

Yeah.

Margot Rossi:

Yeah.

Margot Rossi:

I have to look it up now because I can't remember it has a different name, but

Margot Rossi:

that's the that's um, that's one of the names that the five elements school

Margot Rossi:

uses, if I'm remembering it correctly.

Michael Max:

All right.

Michael Max:

See if you see if you can dig it up.

Michael Max:

Cause I want to put that in the show notes page

Margot Rossi:

anyway, when she said that, oh my gosh, I just took a big

Margot Rossi:

breath and the point had nothing to do with what was going on.

Margot Rossi:

It was just the name of it.

Margot Rossi:

And that's, that's one example of how, when I'm interviewing someone,

Margot Rossi:

the names of the points will come up to me in, in relationship

Margot Rossi:

to what they're talking about.

Margot Rossi:

So it, you know, if they're, if they're sounding really stuck in their life, I

Margot Rossi:

might do something like , you know, I'd ha have anything to do with anything that

Margot Rossi:

relates to the uterus or the digestion.

Margot Rossi:

Elimination, but that's the point that comes up from the conversation.

Margot Rossi:

So that's water path.

Margot Rossi:

So that's, that's one example of how just the interview might start to pull a point.

Margot Rossi:

This will happen with herbs to where, as they're talking the herbs,

Margot Rossi:

just start coming to the surface, like, oh, that's really interesting.

Margot Rossi:

You know, um, all roads open, do they really, does it match the

Margot Rossi:

function and the indication of that?

Margot Rossi:

Or maybe not, but it, it relates to the, the spirit of that.

Margot Rossi:

Or, or if there's, if it's becoming evident that they really don't trust

Margot Rossi:

themselves and they really want to, they want to have more faith

Margot Rossi:

in themselves, then kidney seven, something or kidney eight that builds,

Margot Rossi:

that builds that trust for that.

Margot Rossi:

So that's kind of an example of how a treatment might come up from just

Margot Rossi:

talking with them, you know, and often in that relationship, you can, you can

Margot Rossi:

start to, I'm going to say guess at what the root cause of the issue might be.

Margot Rossi:

Yeah.

Michael Max:

I'd like to think of it as a hypothesis, you know?

Michael Max:

I mean, we call it a diagnosis.

Michael Max:

Right.

Michael Max:

Which sounds very, you know, sort of, oh, it's a diagnosis, it's

Michael Max:

medical sentence stone, but I really think of it more as a hypothesis.

Michael Max:

Here's what I think is happening.

Michael Max:

And it's partly my job to prove it.

Michael Max:

Right.

Michael Max:

But it's partly my job to prove it wrong.

Margot Rossi:

Yeah, exactly.

Michael Max:

No.

Michael Max:

And keep that open stance of inquiry.

Margot Rossi:

Yes.

Margot Rossi:

So the hypotheses can start to bubble up and they do.

Margot Rossi:

I think they do for all of us.

Margot Rossi:

That's part of diagnosis is to listen using our interview skills, asking

Margot Rossi:

the 10 questions and then, okay.

Margot Rossi:

Going, okay.

Margot Rossi:

Looks like the pattern is kind of coming together like this, or looks like the

Margot Rossi:

strategies this person has been using in their life has gotten them to this point.

Margot Rossi:

And maybe we start to introduce different strategies.

Michael Max:

Oh man.

Michael Max:

You know?

Michael Max:

Yeah, this is, this is one of the things that I find people get stuck on.

Michael Max:

I get stuck on it too, that we have something that has

Michael Max:

worked well in the past.

Michael Max:

It worked really well.

Michael Max:

It solved a problem.

Michael Max:

It saved our butt.

Michael Max:

It, I mean, whatever it was, it worked and we've used it up to the point

Michael Max:

where actually that strategy that helped us is now part of the problem.

Michael Max:

It's actually not helpful at all, but because at one time it was, we've

Michael Max:

got this link to it as being useful.

Michael Max:

Except now it's not

Margot Rossi:

right.

Margot Rossi:

Yeah.

Margot Rossi:

And that's, what's so important too, about being able to, to connect to

Margot Rossi:

the subconscious mind, because you want to encourage that awareness

Margot Rossi:

to come up so that you're not even saying, Hey, you know what?

Margot Rossi:

That strategy kinda messing you up right now.

Margot Rossi:

Don't you think where you just connect with them through rapport and you take

Margot Rossi:

that to keep this analogy of the water.

Margot Rossi:

You take that water into that strategy and they look at it and go, oh my gosh,

Margot Rossi:

I bet that's not helping me anymore.

Margot Rossi:

You didn't say anything.

Margot Rossi:

You just kind of said, oh, let's just go over here and check the cell, put a little

Margot Rossi:

flashlight over there and look at that.

Margot Rossi:

And you know, maybe they'll see it.

Margot Rossi:

Maybe they want, but if they do, they have that opportunity to

Michael Max:

change.

Michael Max:

Yeah.

Michael Max:

And, and, and to me, it seems so important that if anyone's going to see it,

Michael Max:

they're the ones that have to see it.

Michael Max:

Cause if we see it, you know, and often we can route we're on the outside.

Michael Max:

Right.

Michael Max:

If we see it in pointed out, sometimes, you know, I used to

Michael Max:

think that was a helpful thing.

Michael Max:

Oh, I've got this insight.

Michael Max:

This is going to help you.

Michael Max:

It's like actually know it now we're further away.

Michael Max:

Now we're sailing the great circle course around it instead of any kind

Michael Max:

of direction to it, because it was them who needs to see it, not me.

Michael Max:

Right.

Michael Max:

This is where I think acupuncture is so wildly helpful at times because there

Michael Max:

can be something unconscious going on or there's maybe an insight I have that

Michael Max:

gives me a thought of, oh, you know, I, some acupoint, you know, this point

Michael Max:

here or this treatment here might help to, you know, help with this situation.

Michael Max:

They don't need to have the insight.

Michael Max:

They need to have something connected up on the inside that at some point

Michael Max:

might come to a kind of fruition where they, they kind of get it.

Michael Max:

This is such, this is one of the things that's so powerful

Michael Max:

about, about acupuncture is that you don't have the patient.

Michael Max:

Doesn't have to like, get it with their conscious mind.

Michael Max:

They can kind of grow into, oh, actually it's I was mistaken.

Michael Max:

It's not like that.

Michael Max:

It's like this.

Margot Rossi:

Yeah.

Margot Rossi:

And I th that is, that is the beauty of acupuncture.

Margot Rossi:

You know, I, earlier, when we started this conversation, I was saying how my belief

Margot Rossi:

back when I started was it has nothing to do with my technique or the point I

Margot Rossi:

pick it's all about this relationship.

Margot Rossi:

But what you're saying, I think is very true.

Margot Rossi:

You can just use acupuncture based on this very sophisticated system of medicine

Margot Rossi:

that we have, the strategies that we understand, and then the methods of it.

Margot Rossi:

And by placing those needles, something subconsciously starts

Margot Rossi:

to change in the patient.

Margot Rossi:

So, uh, has nothing to do necessarily with the relationship or anything

Margot Rossi:

that was brought to consciousness to awareness, uh, through awareness.

Margot Rossi:

That's why this medicine is so cool that it, it, um, it can be from the outside

Margot Rossi:

in, or the inside out, but it still works.

Margot Rossi:

I just happen to like, from the outside, in like that water can seep

Margot Rossi:

in and then it can come back out and, you know, bring things up to

Margot Rossi:

consciousness so they can change.

Margot Rossi:

Um, definitely a champion of.

Margot Rossi:

Heal thyself.

Margot Rossi:

I don't, I'm not interested in having patients keep

Margot Rossi:

returning to me for treatments.

Margot Rossi:

And I make that very clear when they first come to see me that, uh,

Margot Rossi:

there's nothing wrong with that.

Margot Rossi:

It's just not what I like to do.

Margot Rossi:

I'd like to give them an opportunity to get a new view on themselves

Margot Rossi:

and then give them some tools, send them home and see how it goes.

Margot Rossi:

And then if they need to come back, they do.

Margot Rossi:

Uh, but that's just how I like to practice.

Michael Max:

We'll be back in a moment with the second portion of this

Michael Max:

conversation, but first here's the answer to the question that Toby from

Michael Max:

the Chinese nutritional strategies app posed at the beginning of the show.

Michael Max:

Hi,

Margot Rossi:

Toby Harrigan.

Margot Rossi:

I use the Chinese nutritional strategies app to answer the question, what food is

Margot Rossi:

known as nature's by Hutong white tiger.

Margot Rossi:

Decoction the answer is watermelon because like by Hutong clears

Margot Rossi:

heat drain stomach fire generates fluids and alleviates thirst.

Margot Rossi:

The Chinese nutritional strategies app has information like this and its database

Margot Rossi:

of more than 300 common foods along with our clinical indications, temperature,

Margot Rossi:

flavor actions, seasonal recommendations, and differential diagnosis.

Margot Rossi:

The database is searchable by any of these criteria in sorting through it allows

Margot Rossi:

the practitioner to compile a list of recommended foods and then share those

Margot Rossi:

recommendations via email, or as a hard copy with the patient, more information

Margot Rossi:

Isabel, by Chinese nutrition now.com.

Michael Max:

So we're taught, we've been talking about how we connect

Michael Max:

with people, which in some ways helps them connect with themselves.

Michael Max:

And then there's what we do with acupuncture.

Michael Max:

And because you can work from the inside out as well.

Michael Max:

And because we can work with emotional aspects of people through a very

Michael Max:

physical medicine and through a very physical intervention, right?

Michael Max:

If someone, if someone is a constant ruminator, we can help their digestion.

Michael Max:

That's probably going to help.

Michael Max:

All right.

Michael Max:

If someone's got a really poor self-concept in there, and they're

Michael Max:

not good at drawing boundaries, we can work with their metal elements.

Michael Max:

These, these things have an impact.

Michael Max:

We don't necessarily know how it's going to impact people.

Michael Max:

Part partly the thing about practice that's interesting to me

Michael Max:

is to see what they do with, with what's been sort of reactivated.

Michael Max:

So we don't have to go at it necessarily directly in a conscious way.

Michael Max:

We can work with organ systems that have an influence on the emotions that in

Michael Max:

turn have an influence on the perception.

Michael Max:

And then the world becomes very, very different.

Michael Max:

One of the things that I've noticed in my practice is not always, but often enough

Michael Max:

people will come in for a first treatment.

Michael Max:

And they walk out and it's like, what the hell was that?

Michael Max:

Right.

Michael Max:

I mean, they walk they're in a totally different state of mind that, you

Michael Max:

know, something is really different.

Michael Max:

And so, you know, you ask them if they want to come back and they

Michael Max:

say, yes, yes, next week please.

Michael Max:

And you do your second treatment and then they come back for the third.

Michael Max:

They go, you know that second one related too much.

Margot Rossi:

Yep.

Margot Rossi:

That's what I call the ho-hum treatment.

Michael Max:

Well, yeah, you've seen this, I've seen this.

Michael Max:

I suspect those of you that are listening to our conversation right now.

Michael Max:

You've seen this and people go, oh, and it didn't work as well.

Michael Max:

I'm curious to get your thoughts about this,

Margot Rossi:

about the, that second ho-hum treatment

Michael Max:

about, about why they think it's a whole home treatment.

Margot Rossi:

Yeah.

Margot Rossi:

Well that that's first experience.

Margot Rossi:

Being touched from low, you know, it could be from the outside in, if you have

Margot Rossi:

a co um, a masterful practitioner who can really on that first meeting, get in

Margot Rossi:

rapport and make that connection with you.

Margot Rossi:

And you start to realize things that you didn't realize before, and it's

Margot Rossi:

profound, or you feel inspired in a way that you've, haven't felt at all.

Margot Rossi:

And all the other things you've tried to address your health concern, or you

Margot Rossi:

feel empowered, or you feel hopeful.

Margot Rossi:

And these are big things for patients who have seen doctor after doctor with no

Margot Rossi:

results being frustrated and frightened about what they're experiencing.

Margot Rossi:

So that first touch can be so profound just to connect with someone in that

Margot Rossi:

way, just to be given a new perspective.

Margot Rossi:

A new possibility is huge.

Margot Rossi:

And then of course the treatment, if they're able to relax, um, even just

Margot Rossi:

for a minute, while they're on the table, they can have one good deep

Margot Rossi:

breath that they take all on their own spontaneously without thinking about it.

Margot Rossi:

That can be huge for us even.

Margot Rossi:

I mean, we, we live in a world where we travel a million miles

Margot Rossi:

an hour in our minds and we have a lot of external stimulation.

Margot Rossi:

So that moment of pause is profound and they go home with that and

Margot Rossi:

they might feel like kind of noodley after their treatment.

Margot Rossi:

They might be kind of spaced out.

Margot Rossi:

They go home, they sleep really well.

Margot Rossi:

Then they come back full of expectations that they didn't have.

Margot Rossi:

They didn't have those expectations the first time.

Margot Rossi:

They had no concept of what this medicine was going to offer them.

Margot Rossi:

So they come back in and they expect the same thing.

Margot Rossi:

So now I, now it, for me, it's just a standard when someone has completed

Margot Rossi:

their first treatment and they're sitting down and they're putting

Margot Rossi:

their shoes back on, or, uh, they're telling me what they experienced.

Margot Rossi:

I will say to them, this was, this was a profound experience you just had, you

Margot Rossi:

might not have that the second time.

Margot Rossi:

And I tell them, I call it the ho-hum treatment, not to put any thoughts

Margot Rossi:

into their heads, because of course we can do that when they're in

Margot Rossi:

that very receptive, relaxed state.

Margot Rossi:

Um, but I do say to them, the next time you come, it may not be as profound.

Margot Rossi:

And that's because the door has opened and you'll have

Margot Rossi:

acclimated to the new environment.

Margot Rossi:

So it might not be so.

Margot Rossi:

Um, in your face, so to speak.

Margot Rossi:

And then I say, but don't be discouraged because the path, every step you take on

Margot Rossi:

this path is just going to keep unfolding something pretty beautiful to you.

Margot Rossi:

So, and then of course they have the second treatment they come back and

Margot Rossi:

oftentimes they'll say you were right.

Margot Rossi:

It was ho-hum.

Margot Rossi:

And I'm glad you told me, because if you hadn't, I might not have come back.

Margot Rossi:

So it's, I think it's helpful to be overt about that.

Margot Rossi:

Uh, since it, like you say, it does happen and as your listeners might

Margot Rossi:

be nodding their heads going, yeah.

Margot Rossi:

What, what is that?

Margot Rossi:

That's what I think is going on the first time is just profoundly new and

Michael Max:

fresh.

Michael Max:

And I like the way that you talk about it.

Michael Max:

The first time it opens a door and you walk through the door, you're in a new

Michael Max:

environment and we so easily acclimate.

Michael Max:

To our new environment.

Michael Max:

I often think about those first treatments where people really, you know, bang,

Michael Max:

something really happened as they get a glimpse of where they can be.

Michael Max:

They get a glimpse of what's possible.

Michael Max:

Now you got to live your way into it.

Michael Max:

Yes,

Margot Rossi:

yes.

Margot Rossi:

Yeah.

Margot Rossi:

And that again is if you've established good rapport, they, the chances

Margot Rossi:

are really good that they'll keep walking with you on that path.

Margot Rossi:

Even though it's going to start to take work, it's not just Michael

Margot Rossi:

gave me an awesome treatment and now I'm a new person.

Margot Rossi:

You just opened the door and then they got to walk through and keep walking it.

Margot Rossi:

So, uh, I really think these skills are pretty important

Margot Rossi:

too, to help us walk together.

Michael Max:

I really like what you have to say about this in terms

Michael Max:

of letting them know this time was like this the second time.

Michael Max:

Probably won't, you know, it's, it's so easy.

Michael Max:

I don't know what it is about us as human beings, but we have an experience and

Michael Max:

we think, oh yeah, if I do this again, I'm going to get the same experience.

Michael Max:

I mean, maybe this is the basis of what addiction is.

Michael Max:

Right.

Michael Max:

I had this experience.

Michael Max:

I do this thing again.

Michael Max:

I'm going to get this incredible state, but I remember hearing,

Michael Max:

yeah, we know how that ends up.

Michael Max:

I remember hearing someone once say the biggest impediment to the experience of

Michael Max:

God is your previous experience with God,

Margot Rossi:

right?

Margot Rossi:

Absolutely.

Margot Rossi:

Oh yeah.

Margot Rossi:

Well it's the, the Dow can not be named the moment you name it.

Margot Rossi:

It's not the damn.

Margot Rossi:

Okay.

Margot Rossi:

I guess they can't hold on to this.

Michael Max:

Uh, it was so tasty, please, please, please.

Michael Max:

Can I have another scoop?

Margot Rossi:

Yeah, I have a patient who's been coming to see me, uh, since

Margot Rossi:

I started Michael, since I moved back to North Carolina and started practices,

Margot Rossi:

she's been with me 23 years, 24 years.

Margot Rossi:

And she'll come in and she'll say, I know I'm not supposed to ask you this

Margot Rossi:

because you're just going to say, I, I, it doesn't work like that, but

Margot Rossi:

she'll say, can you give me the exact same treatment you did last time?

Margot Rossi:

It doesn't work like that.

Margot Rossi:

Yeah.

Margot Rossi:

And of course, if I did, she wouldn't, she wouldn't necessarily feel the

Margot Rossi:

same thing because it's a new day.

Margot Rossi:

It's a new moment.

Michael Max:

Yeah, this is, uh, this is one of the beauties and one of the

Michael Max:

frustrations of our, of what we do.

Michael Max:

All right.

Michael Max:

Cause I mean, in some ways it would be so easy if we could just go, oh yeah, well,

Michael Max:

here's that protocol and you just do that.

Michael Max:

And then you get this and conventional medicine is very much based on that.

Michael Max:

So people are, they're kind of attuned to that.

Michael Max:

They're expecting that.

Michael Max:

Well, but you, you know, you did this last time, how come

Michael Max:

you don't into it this time?

Margot Rossi:

Or you did it, did it last time and you did it this time,

Margot Rossi:

but it didn't have the same effect.

Margot Rossi:

What's what's up with that.

Michael Max:

Yeah.

Michael Max:

Well, you know, and I think to give people that glimpse of it's changing moment to

Michael Max:

moment, you're changing moment to moment.

Michael Max:

I think it can be very frustrating for folks in some ways.

Michael Max:

Cause we, we just want to know, but especially in situations where people

Michael Max:

are ill, they've got something going on, you know, enough so that they're

Michael Max:

coming to see an acupuncturist.

Michael Max:

There's often a lot of uncertainty anyway.

Michael Max:

And so being able to get a little bit cozy with uncertainty, I

Michael Max:

think it tends to be helpful.

Margot Rossi:

Yes.

Margot Rossi:

And that too, you know, if you're in rapport with your patient, they will

Margot Rossi:

feel more secure with you so that when you were at what what's called pacing

Margot Rossi:

and then leading, when you're walking with them in familiar territory, and

Margot Rossi:

then you say, Hey, how about we go over there just for a moment and check it out.

Margot Rossi:

That's a frightening moment.

Margot Rossi:

Like really?

Margot Rossi:

You want me to, you want me to feel that?

Margot Rossi:

I don't know if I want to feel

Michael Max:

that coming here to avoid feeling that, thank you very much.

Margot Rossi:

Exactly.

Margot Rossi:

Uh, there they'll go with you.

Margot Rossi:

They'll come with you and you can sit there and investigate

Margot Rossi:

the experience in that moment.

Margot Rossi:

And then if it's too much, you can just walk right back to the same old path.

Margot Rossi:

And, but something's changed has changed forever and it may, they may

Margot Rossi:

want to go back to that place that.

Margot Rossi:

You know, you may have encouraged them to go a fresh new place.

Margot Rossi:

Yeah.

Margot Rossi:

I,

Michael Max:

I really liked this sensibility that

Michael Max:

you're talking about here.

Michael Max:

That there's a place of security and, and that is vital and there's

Michael Max:

this place of unknown and uncertainty also helpful, useful, and to be

Michael Max:

able to have enough security so you can imbibe some uncertainty, right.

Michael Max:

And enough uncertainty.

Michael Max:

So you can break your idea, what you think is going on so you can try something new.

Margot Rossi:

Yep, exactly.

Margot Rossi:

And if you're with someone who is listening and is genuinely

Margot Rossi:

wanting to live in your world without judging you, my God, that.

Margot Rossi:

Uh, to me, that's the most powerful medicine

Michael Max:

I judge my patients all the time.

Margot Rossi:

Yeah.

Margot Rossi:

I think, I think we do.

Margot Rossi:

That's I think that's part of the training that we get in school too, is

Margot Rossi:

to, we kind of know what's right and wrong or what's good and bad, but of

Margot Rossi:

course the medicine tells us, yeah,

Michael Max:

I know we're supposed to know.

Michael Max:

Right.

Michael Max:

And wrong and good and bad.

Michael Max:

And, and in some ways people are looking for that.

Michael Max:

Tell me what to

Margot Rossi:

do.

Margot Rossi:

Yeah.

Margot Rossi:

Yeah.

Margot Rossi:

Oh, they get frustrated in my practice because I don't do that.

Margot Rossi:

You don't

Michael Max:

tell them,

Margot Rossi:

I know I'll give them options and say what feels right to you.

Margot Rossi:

And of course, my minute, much of the time they can't, they don't know.

Margot Rossi:

They don't know what feels right to them.

Margot Rossi:

So, you know, then that's another part of the medicine is building

Margot Rossi:

that mindfulness to notice.

Margot Rossi:

How does that feel inside?

Margot Rossi:

Which, what, what is your intuition to.

Margot Rossi:

Anyway that deep listening without judging and just letting somebody be

Margot Rossi:

themselves, you get out of yourself, you meet them where they are, and you

Margot Rossi:

have this chunky, you have this, the three becomes the 10,000 things moment.

Margot Rossi:

It's great.

Margot Rossi:

I love practicing like that.

Margot Rossi:

It's really good.

Michael Max:

I can hear that in your voice.

Michael Max:

Yeah.

Margot Rossi:

Yeah.

Margot Rossi:

And that's, um, you know, when we start acupuncture school and after

Margot Rossi:

we've practiced it for your few years, those, those ego tendencies

Margot Rossi:

can really come to the forefront.

Margot Rossi:

Like I know what's best.

Margot Rossi:

I know the right path.

Margot Rossi:

If you do it like this, this is what's going to happen.

Margot Rossi:

And then of course, after you've practiced for a while you

Margot Rossi:

realize that doesn't work at all,

Michael Max:

not so

Margot Rossi:

much, not so much too many variables.

Margot Rossi:

There's something beyond the structure of the medicine that's happening.

Margot Rossi:

So that's the fun part is practicing for a long time and coming in

Margot Rossi:

and out of the mystery and the manifestation and back to the mystery.

Margot Rossi:

And so rich.

Michael Max:

Yeah.

Michael Max:

So you've been at this 25 issue years.

Michael Max:

You sound as excited about it is when I knew you as a student, I love it.

Michael Max:

What's kept what's, what's kept you.

Michael Max:

What's kept your interest alive.

Michael Max:

You know, there's, there's a lot of talk in our profession these days,

Michael Max:

about how people five years out from school, they're not practicing.

Michael Max:

There's a whole industry.

Michael Max:

That's grown up around getting people kind of up and going with their practice.

Michael Max:

My sense of it is if you can manage to keep it going for five years, you've

Michael Max:

got enough stability that you've got a shot at, you know, a longer.

Michael Max:

Unfoldment in being a medical practitioner, being a Chinese

Michael Max:

medicine practitioner.

Michael Max:

So I've become increasingly curious about not just what

Michael Max:

it takes to start a practice.

Michael Max:

I mean, again, there's lots of people that have good advice for that.

Michael Max:

What does it take to sustain a practice?

Michael Max:

What does it take to have a practice go decades?

Margot Rossi:

I think the key, Michael, and I'd love to hear

Margot Rossi:

your response to this too.

Margot Rossi:

I think the key for me was to keep digging deeper into myself.

Margot Rossi:

And of course the Sioux one tells us that the Ling Shu tells us

Margot Rossi:

that you have to know yourself.

Margot Rossi:

I pulled something from Julia measures.

Margot Rossi:

Did you ever know who the, who Julia measures is?

Margot Rossi:

Was she was part of the, um, Tai school and Maryland.

Margot Rossi:

She was a student of chair Worsley's in England.

Margot Rossi:

She was one of his top students.

Margot Rossi:

She came to the states and started teaching at Tai and they

Margot Rossi:

started this Sophia program.

Margot Rossi:

She had this to say that her preconditions for treatment.

Margot Rossi:

I, before I went to school, when I was hunting for a school, I went to

Margot Rossi:

a presentation that she and Diane Connolly and the TA high school was,

Margot Rossi:

um, was giving at Nisa in Boston.

Margot Rossi:

So I got to visit Nisa.

Margot Rossi:

And then I also had to got to take this class from the five element tradition.

Margot Rossi:

And she said, you know, you have to know your medicine.

Margot Rossi:

This is a precondition for treatment.

Margot Rossi:

You've got to know the, the, the system of medicine that you're in.

Margot Rossi:

And then the second condition was insight into yourself.

Margot Rossi:

So I think that's, what's kept me going, is that when I first started and I,

Margot Rossi:

again, I'd like to know this, if this was true for you, I had studied five

Margot Rossi:

element acupuncture, uh, while I was in school because I had already done

Margot Rossi:

all of my biomedicine in undergraduate.

Margot Rossi:

So I didn't have to take those classes at acupuncture school.

Margot Rossi:

And that freed me up to study outside of school.

Margot Rossi:

You know, I'd studied with Kiko and Dr.

Margot Rossi:

Tan and, um, Michael Adams and Stephen Birch and Stephen Brown.

Margot Rossi:

And, you know, the list just goes on with, uh, the school environment

Margot Rossi:

in Seattle was so rich and so many people were coming through.

Margot Rossi:

So I had all these techniques and tools.

Margot Rossi:

My basket was overflowing with.

Margot Rossi:

Knowledge and what I could do.

Margot Rossi:

And then I moved to Hawaii and then I moved back to North Carolina and

Margot Rossi:

I got into practice and it was slow.

Margot Rossi:

And I just kept remembering my teacher saying, give it five years before you

Margot Rossi:

make any judgment about practicing.

Margot Rossi:

I didn't advertise because I was in the rural south and I had been warned

Margot Rossi:

that to talk about Chinese medicine sounded like satanic practice.

Margot Rossi:

You know, that we have the five star.

Margot Rossi:

And anyway, I kept very, very much under the radar and patients trickled

Margot Rossi:

in, but I was very doubtful of myself.

Margot Rossi:

I felt like I didn't get it.

Margot Rossi:

And I didn't know what I was doing.

Margot Rossi:

And I shouldn't be doing this.

Margot Rossi:

I should be working at a bank.

Margot Rossi:

Seriously.

Margot Rossi:

I thought I had that thought for many years and I went and studied in China

Margot Rossi:

because I felt so deficient that I took three months and David learner and I went

Margot Rossi:

and D made our own internship and herbal medicine there at the hospital in Chandu.

Margot Rossi:

I came back and I still felt so insecure.

Margot Rossi:

It didn't know what was happening.

Margot Rossi:

And, um, it wasn't really, till I started studying with Jeffrey UN

Margot Rossi:

that I really need to look at myself.

Margot Rossi:

It's not about, it's not about my technique or my understanding is there's

Margot Rossi:

a lot of, there's a big mess inside of me and that's, what's blocking me.

Margot Rossi:

So in that environment of someone saying to me, don't judge yourself,

Margot Rossi:

just let yourself unfold and look at yourself and don't be afraid.

Margot Rossi:

My gosh, it just, it opened me up.

Margot Rossi:

I kept on wanting to drink from that fountain.

Margot Rossi:

It was just profound.

Margot Rossi:

And so as I practiced the medicine and as I worked with people and saw, I'm

Margot Rossi:

just like them, they're just like me.

Margot Rossi:

How can we help each other here that just kept feeding me and growing.

Margot Rossi:

And it's still the case today.

Margot Rossi:

I, I love my practice.

Margot Rossi:

I love my patients.

Margot Rossi:

I'm grateful to each and every one of them they've taught me so much

Margot Rossi:

and we've really grown together.

Margot Rossi:

So that's what keeps me going.

Margot Rossi:

I just fall more and more in love with, with us, I guess I could say it like that.

Michael Max:

Yeah.

Michael Max:

I too was schooled in the Seattle area.

Michael Max:

So lots of rich influence rich.

Michael Max:

Oh my God.

Michael Max:

So much.

Michael Max:

Yeah.

Michael Max:

I mean, fabulous.

Michael Max:

And in the techniques are helpful and the knowledge is helpful and yeah.

Michael Max:

You know, I went to a school that was very long on internship.

Michael Max:

Right.

Michael Max:

They had us in clinic the first, first you were in there for 300 hours.

Michael Max:

Wow.

Michael Max:

So yeah, I

Margot Rossi:

didn't realize that.

Michael Max:

Yeah.

Michael Max:

Seattle Institute.

Michael Max:

Yeah.

Michael Max:

You're in clinic 300 hours.

Michael Max:

Dan and Paul.

Michael Max:

Yeah.

Michael Max:

You're in clinic 300 hours watching people that have been

Michael Max:

doing it for 10 years or more.

Michael Max:

Yeah.

Michael Max:

So from the get go I've, I've had this infusion of medicine, the medicine unfolds

Michael Max:

in relationship, you know, in folds in the clinic and unfolds in relationship,

Michael Max:

um, and unfolds through doing it.

Michael Max:

And, and, and yes, you got to know your stuff.

Michael Max:

You've got to know your medicine and you also have to be attentive to what's

Michael Max:

unfolding in front of you at this particular moment, at this particular

Michael Max:

moment, at this particular moment.

Michael Max:

You know, I came from that kind of a background, but I'm the kind

Michael Max:

of person who likes to know stuff.

Michael Max:

I mean, I used to be in high tech and work with computers and stuff.

Michael Max:

So, you know, I mean, there's something to know and there's something to do.

Michael Max:

And with medicine, there's also something to know and something to do,

Michael Max:

but there's also a space for someone uncertainty and being able to sit with,

Michael Max:

well, what's actually here, how can I get a grasp of what's here before I

Michael Max:

actually start trying to do anything?

Michael Max:

Yeah.

Michael Max:

We can have our ideas about what's going on with someone, but that's

Michael Max:

more about us than about them.

Michael Max:

And it might be helpful to them in some ways.

Michael Max:

But then you end up in a situation where now they're dependent on you and you're

Michael Max:

the person who's doing the fixing.

Michael Max:

Exactly.

Michael Max:

I get really uncomfortable these days.

Michael Max:

When people come in and go, you fixed my XYZ.

Michael Max:

I mean, it's nice, right?

Michael Max:

I mean, there's a part of me that goes, oh yeah.

Michael Max:

You know?

Michael Max:

Oh yeah, right.

Michael Max:

I got to shut down.

Michael Max:

I fixed your XYZ, but it, but that doesn't help them in an especially.

Michael Max:

Doesn't help me if I'm thinking I fixed her XYZ because there is

Michael Max:

something that unfolded that changed.

Michael Max:

I got to have a hand in it.

Michael Max:

They're the ones who do the work.

Michael Max:

And so part of what keeps me going.

Michael Max:

Yeah.

Michael Max:

Somehow getting through those years of, I got to fix things.

Michael Max:

I gotta be the smart guy who fixes things.

Michael Max:

Exactly.

Michael Max:

And, and, and there's enough.

Michael Max:

And having had enough experience with that, working to stay in the game and

Michael Max:

enough experience of that failing to go.

Michael Max:

There's gotta be more here than just that.

Michael Max:

Yeah.

Michael Max:

So that's, that's kinda my thought on it at this moment in time.

Michael Max:

We should, we could maybe sit down again together in five years and see where we're

Margot Rossi:

at with it.

Margot Rossi:

True, true.

Margot Rossi:

So, is that what keeps you going, Michael?

Michael Max:

That, well, what keeps me going?

Michael Max:

That's a good question.

Michael Max:

I, well, first of all, I see it work and be helpful to people often enough that

Michael Max:

I feel like it's a worthwhile reason to get out of bed and do something in a day.

Michael Max:

Yes.

Michael Max:

Number one, it's helped.

Michael Max:

I see it being helpful enough that.

Michael Max:

You know, I mean, if I didn't see being helpful, I go up on

Michael Max:

a coffee shop or something.

Michael Max:

Right.

Michael Max:

Cause that, that would be more helpful, but I see it be helpful enough.

Michael Max:

I'm continually surprised and amazed at the resources people actually

Michael Max:

have with inside themselves that they didn't know that they had that.

Michael Max:

I didn't know they had that they didn't know they had and through the relationship

Michael Max:

and connecting with them through the acupuncture, through whatever it is

Michael Max:

through whatever dance it is we do together that we call Chinese medicine.

Michael Max:

They find stuff in themselves.

Michael Max:

That's been laying there.

Michael Max:

Latents that has an avenue of expression and how that's going to express.

Michael Max:

We don't know.

Michael Max:

And being able to sit in a place with somebody and watching.

Michael Max:

And getting to be a part of something coming out in a way that no one

Michael Max:

could know it was going to come out.

Michael Max:

That's delightful and it's not because I did something.

Michael Max:

I mean, I get to help cultivate the relationship, you know, and I, and it's

Michael Max:

my job to put needles in certain places where I think it's going to be helpful,

Michael Max:

but that something else comes through in a way that there's a bit less suffering.

Michael Max:

There's more integration, something shifts.

Michael Max:

People don't need to come see me as much.

Michael Max:

It's a good way to spend the day.

Michael Max:

It's a w you know, I can go to bed at the end of the day and

Michael Max:

go, that was a day well lift.

Michael Max:

Well, so that's kind of

Margot Rossi:

what keeps me in that.

Margot Rossi:

Yeah.

Margot Rossi:

That's beautiful.

Margot Rossi:

Thanks for saying that.

Michael Max:

So I've got, I think I've just got one or two more questions here.

Michael Max:

I could go on with you for hours like this.

Michael Max:

Maybe we'll do a part two at some point.

Michael Max:

But I'm, I'm here in Taiwan and I got some stuff I got, I got to go

Michael Max:

attend to here in a little bit.

Michael Max:

So, so I've got a little bit of a time limit.

Michael Max:

You were talking about being able to listen without judgment.

Michael Max:

And I think I made a wisecrack about, oh yeah, good luck with that.

Michael Max:

Or I judge my patients all the time or something like that because,

Michael Max:

well, I do, we do, you know, as human beings, we do it all the time.

Michael Max:

It's hard not to, you know, and, and we're taught to, and as medical

Michael Max:

practitioners with got to have good judgment and discernment, so, you know,

Michael Max:

judgment is going to creep in how to have that, but not let it get in the

Michael Max:

way how to, how to be discerning.

Michael Max:

How can we work with our judgment?

Michael Max:

So we, not that we get rid of it, but that it doesn't get in the way so much of.

Michael Max:

I was working with our patients.

Margot Rossi:

Well, uh, I have a two-pronged approach to that because I

Margot Rossi:

am a very judgmental, critical person.

Margot Rossi:

That seems to be one of the, um, one of your

Michael Max:

enduring quality.

Margot Rossi:

Yeah.

Margot Rossi:

Talk to my family about that.

Margot Rossi:

Yeah.

Margot Rossi:

So one of the ways that I respond to that when I notice it coming up in

Margot Rossi:

clinic is that I will check in with myself, like I'll say, so I'm going

Margot Rossi:

to give you my thought bubble here.

Margot Rossi:

I'll notice that I'm feeling judgmental, which is I can

Margot Rossi:

feel that sh my cheek rising.

Margot Rossi:

So there's a sense of superiority coming up.

Margot Rossi:

I can.

Margot Rossi:

I might have a thought, like, you gotta be kidding me.

Margot Rossi:

Are you not hearing yourself here?

Margot Rossi:

You know, so when I noticed that, when I noticed that thought and I noticed

Margot Rossi:

that feeling, I stopped right there and what happens here, I might not be

Margot Rossi:

listening to the patient as they're talking anymore because I've gone internal

Margot Rossi:

to check out something inside myself.

Margot Rossi:

And I'll just say to myself, you're judging, aren't you?

Margot Rossi:

Oh yeah.

Margot Rossi:

You're critiquing something.

Margot Rossi:

And I don't, I don't give myself a guilt trip or anything like that.

Margot Rossi:

It's just, oh, oh, here I am judging again.

Margot Rossi:

Interesting.

Margot Rossi:

Okay.

Margot Rossi:

Of course, the minute you notice it, it's gone and then I can listen again.

Margot Rossi:

So that's one way that I respond to my.

Margot Rossi:

The other way I respond to my judgment is I might hear myself

Margot Rossi:

say to myself, oh really, really?

Margot Rossi:

You think you've done this better?

Margot Rossi:

Really?

Margot Rossi:

Is that really true?

Margot Rossi:

Margot, have you really done life better than this person?

Margot Rossi:

Nope.

Margot Rossi:

Nope.

Margot Rossi:

We're all in the same boat.

Margot Rossi:

So I say that a lot.

Margot Rossi:

We're all in the same boat.

Margot Rossi:

Sometimes I say it out loud.

Margot Rossi:

It's something that I once heard the Dalai Lama say we're all in the same boat.

Margot Rossi:

And of course, when he said it, I was like, you're not in my boat, dude.

Margot Rossi:

You're definitely in a different boat, but of course the way he, his

Margot Rossi:

transmission, his, uh, uh, his nod, I got.

Margot Rossi:

Like, oh, we are, we're all in the same boat.

Margot Rossi:

So those are two ways that I deal with judgment that comes up in practices,

Margot Rossi:

bringing some mindfulness to it, or just really asking myself really, really?

Margot Rossi:

You want to get superior here?

Margot Rossi:

I think you live in a glass house.

Margot Rossi:

My dear.

Michael Max:

Yeah.

Michael Max:

We kind of know how that's probably going to go.

Margot Rossi:

Yeah.

Margot Rossi:

So what do you do?

Michael Max:

Oh man.

Michael Max:

Oh God, you always do this.

Michael Max:

It's like, okay, now, Michael max, I'm asking you.

Margot Rossi:

Well, yeah, you're the celebrity on the show?

Michael Max:

No, you're the celebrity.

Michael Max:

I just have the show, you know?

Margot Rossi:

Yeah.

Margot Rossi:

You wrote a book.

Margot Rossi:

I haven't done that yet, but it's coming.

Michael Max:

I did not write a book.

Michael Max:

No, I did not write a book.

Michael Max:

I translated a book.

Michael Max:

I did not write a book.

Michael Max:

Writing a book is a whole different kettle of fish while you are

Margot Rossi:

writing a book.

Margot Rossi:

So

Michael Max:

I'm working on it, but it's a whole kettle of

Michael Max:

fish, different kettle of fish.

Michael Max:

Holy crap.

Michael Max:

How do I do it?

Michael Max:

Do it.

Michael Max:

Wow.

Michael Max:

Let me think here.

Michael Max:

You were saying something about really, you don't see that.

Michael Max:

And, and I see this with my patients all the time.

Michael Max:

They'll say something and it floors me.

Michael Max:

It's like, wait a minute.

Michael Max:

If they could just hear what I heard promise solved.

Michael Max:

Right.

Michael Max:

But often the problem is that they can't hear it.

Michael Max:

Sometimes I will try to get them to hear it.

Michael Max:

That's usually not so helpful.

Michael Max:

I've tried that.

Michael Max:

It's like.

Michael Max:

It's like here, it is so clear.

Michael Max:

If you could just hear what you just said and I'll try reflecting it

Michael Max:

back to them and sometimes they'll get it, but, but usually not.

Michael Max:

Yeah.

Michael Max:

Um, so I just have to sit there frustrated.

Michael Max:

I hadn't thought about looking at that and going, oh, can't you hear

Michael Max:

that in taking that as an invitation for myself just to go, oh, okay.

Michael Max:

There's something here.

Michael Max:

It's not yet able to be inhabited.

Michael Max:

Maybe I should just get a little curious about it, or how does this fit in?

Michael Max:

How does this fit in with how I think about how emotions work in

Michael Max:

organ systems and where can I go?

Michael Max:

You know, is there like a Zong Fu I can have a little conversation with, because

Michael Max:

if I can have a little conversation with the song Fu does on food, we'll

Michael Max:

have a conversation with the patients.

Michael Max:

So I'll, I'll, I'll think about it like that.

Margot Rossi:

Well, that's really using.

Margot Rossi:

This immense, incredible medicine.

Margot Rossi:

Like you just, you just keep turning to it and putting it into practice.

Margot Rossi:

Just like what you just described.

Margot Rossi:

There's you can hang your hat on so many things in this medicine and feel like,

Margot Rossi:

yep, that's a good place to put my hat.

Michael Max:

And I think there is this a central part of who the practitioner

Michael Max:

is not in an egoic way, but I mean who we are in our own tender edge.

Michael Max:

And if I can somehow be there at my tender edge without making the patient,

Michael Max:

the therapist, so to speak, but just there at my own tender edge, being

Michael Max:

able to hold my own tender edge, it sometimes shifts the feeling in the

Michael Max:

room and sometimes it shifts something in the patient, but at least I know

Michael Max:

that I'm at, at, at a tender points.

Michael Max:

Yeah.

Michael Max:

I need to tread cautiously with myself.

Michael Max:

It reminds me to tread cautiously and with care with my patient.

Michael Max:

And then again, bring it back to, and, and how do I use all this information to

Michael Max:

translate into where a needle is going to go that I think will be a benefit.

Michael Max:

Yeah.

Margot Rossi:

And that tenderness that you speak of, you know, when you, when

Margot Rossi:

we, as the practitioner allow ourselves to enter that tenderness, that space

Margot Rossi:

of vulnerability, then we give, we give permission for them to, to, and again,

Margot Rossi:

if we're in good rapport, they will.

Margot Rossi:

And that then the shame, the self-loathing, the guilt, whatever it

Margot Rossi:

is that has kind of been operating under the scene under the cover for so long.

Margot Rossi:

And that's, that's led them to this point.

Margot Rossi:

Now they can start to look at that and, and share that vulnerability shared.

Margot Rossi:

Whatever it is self hatred or

Michael Max:

blood, whatever that, whatever that blockages,

Michael Max:

whatever that block.

Michael Max:

And then she is.

Michael Max:

Yeah.

Michael Max:

And then the

Margot Rossi:

knot is already unraveling and you didn't do anything.

Margot Rossi:

It's just through your presence.

Margot Rossi:

You were the needle, you know, through your presence, you, you

Margot Rossi:

provided an opportunity for change.

Michael Max:

Well, in this, this brings us back full circle to what you were talking

Michael Max:

about earlier with some of the classics, linking it to Sue in doubt, aging, these

Michael Max:

things where it talks about how we are with ourselves in the process of being

Michael Max:

with a needle, being with a patient.

Michael Max:

Yup.

Margot Rossi:

Oh my gosh.

Margot Rossi:

That is repeated over and over in those texts.

Margot Rossi:

It is really, I th it's there, those texts, those classics are shouting at us.

Margot Rossi:

Who are you?

Margot Rossi:

Who are you?

Margot Rossi:

That's the key.

Margot Rossi:

Who am I?

Margot Rossi:

And if I can, if I can show up authentically, then maybe this person that

Margot Rossi:

I'm in rapport with, maybe they can't too.

Michael Max:

Um, well, my friend,

Margot Rossi:

I'm sorry.

Margot Rossi:

We have such boring conversations.

Michael Max:

Well, let the listeners be the judge of that or,

Michael Max:

you know, I think that's pro I think this is just a good place

Michael Max:

to put a bookmark in it for today.

Michael Max:

And we can, we can maybe pick up, uh, another time and noodle on some of this

Margot Rossi:

stuff.

Margot Rossi:

Yeah.

Margot Rossi:

Or something else we could talk about.

Margot Rossi:

Um, my really good meat sauce for pasta.

Michael Max:

Okay, well, since you brought it up, I think you're just going to have

Michael Max:

to send me like, you know, a PDF and I'll put it on the show notes page for people.

Margot Rossi:

Okay.

Margot Rossi:

And I'm also going to circle back on the death and perishing and a walk

Margot Rossi:

on the veranda and you need my Sugo dichotomy because Carnegie recipe.

Margot Rossi:

Yeah.

Michael Max:

Okay.

Michael Max:

All right.

Michael Max:

All right, my friend, thank you, Michaels for listening to, it's always a delight.

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