Content warning: This episode contains brief mentions of suicidal ideation; they are not discussed at length or in detail. Please take care while listening.

Artist, imagination doula, and mom Molly Darling joins host Emily Hessney Lynch for a wide-ranging conversation about evolving identity and how to take the leap and cross the threshold into something new. In the first half of the episode, we discuss the many lives Molly has lived before 40, faith deconstruction, divorce, and discovering she was a lesbian in her 30s.

During the second half of the show, we discuss how important it is to let kids have different experiences than you, learning how to say "I fucked up and I'm sorry" to your kids, the value of female rage, and figuring out how to listen to your body and trust your own intuition rather than operating from a place of fear.

Links:

• Molly's podcast, Behind the Studio Door, will be returning soon! Explore the back catalog here.
• The book Molly mentioned that discusses fear at length is Big Magic: Creating Living Beyond Fear by Elizabeth Gilbert.
• If you are struggling with postpartum depression or psychosis, here are some resources to explore: Postpartum Support International; National Maternal Mental Health Hotline; 988 Lifeline.
• For more of Molly, follow her on Instagram. You can also book an energy portrait or imagination doula session here.
• Follow Emily on Instagram and check out her business, Serve Me the Sky Digital, if you need a social media strategist, speaker, or writer!

Interested in sponsoring It's a Lot? Our media kit is available upon request! Reach out here to start the conversation. You can also support the show by leaving us a one-time (or recurring!) tip. We'll send you a sticker to say thanks!

We're a proud member of the Lunchador Podcast Network. Our logo is by Tenderchomps Art.

Mentioned in this episode:

Joe Bean Roasters

Visit joebeanroasters.com to get fresh roasted specialty coffee either by the bag or with a Perpetual Joy subscription!

Mind of Magnus

The Mind is an An Amazing Space Dive into the Mind of Magnus Champlin. A creative brain cursed with endless curiosity. The show focuses on learning about everything and anything, from factoids to deep dives into theories. Magnus interviews guests sharing their stories and life adventures all with the goal of expanding our minds. We are always on the lookout for the next awesome thing to learn!

Getting Real with Bossy: For Women Who Own Business

Check out Getting Real with Bossy: For Women Who Own Business on Lunchador! https://feeds.captivate.fm/gettingrealwithbossy/

We were just at the mall today and my daughter picked out a pair of socks for me that she was like, mom, these are socks exactly made for you.

And you know what they said on them?

They said, easily distracted by boobies.

And I was like, wow, I'm so glad that my kids are know that I'm a lesbian and love that I'm a lesbian.

Hello and welcome to It's a Lot, a podcast about things that are a lot.

On this show, we have honest conversations about the highs and lows of social media, parenthood, and more.

When it comes to complex topics, online discourse can lack nuance and empathy.

That's why we're leaning into deep conversations, making space for conflicting, messy feelings and keeping it real about how we feel.

We could all use a little more of that sometimes.

I'm your host, Emily Hesney Lynch, and today I'm looking forward to chatting with Molly Darling.

Molly is an artist, creativity doula, writer and nonbinary mama of two, exploring creativity, motherhood, identity, grief, and reinvention.

Through her visual art, energy portraits and workshops, she helps people reconnect with imagination and make meaning from the mess of being human.

She's also the host of behind the Studio Door, which is also part of the Lunch Door family.

And it's officially coming back, so you all can look forward to that.

I'm really excited to talk about all those things and more.

So welcome to the show, Molly.

Yay.

Thank you so much for having me.

It's so funny.

I sat in the host seat accidentally when we first came in.

I was like, oh, nope, not my show.

Emily's show.

I'm really excited to talk to you.

Thanks for having me.

Different ride tonight.

Yeah.

So I know you've been in a big transition period lately in life.

What's been a lot for you recently?

This whole summer has been a lot, but a lot of everything.

Like, a lot of change, a lot of grief, a lot of sadness, a lot of joy, a lot of exploration.

So basically my ex and I C, who was host of the other podcast, we broke up, like, earlier in the year, I think around April.

So we've just been going through this transition time of, like, what does life look like?

You know, totally different.

And also my kids are going into high school and middle school.

Wow.

And also I moved into a new house.

And also I came out as a lesbian.

So, you know, no big deal.

Just like everything a lot all at once.

Yeah.

I think.

Congratulations.

I'm sorry.

Happy.

Woo.

Big mess of feelings, probably.

Yeah.

But all good.

It's Very life being life, you know.

I feel like you've gone through so many evolutions and everything.

You're probably a little bit used to, like, holding those conflicting feelings that.

Have you, like, struggled with having that much grief and that much joy at the same time?

Like, what's that been like?

You know, that's a really good question, because it's really interesting.

I do feel like I've lived several lifetimes already, and I'm not even 40.

You know, I'm just like, I have.

I've been through a divorce process before.

I've been through faith deconstruction.

I've been through, like, all of these big things, you know, like, big transitions and.

And so it feels like thresholds feel like familiar territory to me.

Like, so thankfully I had that going for me, because I feel like that would have made this summer if I.

If this was the first time.

I think we would be having a very different conversation.

But because I have been through so much, I keep on saying, like, I'm new to X, Y, and Z, but I'm not new to life.

You know, Like, I've been.

I've been here the whole time, so I'm just, like, going through a new layer.

But there has been lots of ups and lots of downs and definite.

I mean, I'm also just a human, so there's moments when I'm, like, crying on my bathroom floor, and there's moments when I'm like, this is the best day ever.

You know, it's like the full Technicolor rainbow spectrum of life.

That's awesome.

Yeah.

As hard as those parts might be, I'm thinking about the threshold image that you just invoked, and we'll probably talk about it more later.

But I'm curious, like, when you get to these thresholds, how do you, like, go ahead and take the leap and walk through the door instead of just being, like, stuck in the uncertainty and, like, fear part of it?

That's also a great question.

I think it depends on the threshold.

I think when you're crossing into something new again, like, this isn't my first big crossing.

So I think I was prepared for the feeling of, okay, like, because I'm here to grow and to evolve, I'm not here to just, like, survive and kind of live the same life for however many years I'm here.

I'm.

I'm a very dynamic human.

And I also, like, have no qualms about the fact that life is not going to be the same from, like, year to year and decade.

To decade.

And I think the more that I've practiced being in the discomfort of that, the better it's not the better it's been, but like the more comfortable I've been with discomfort.

Even though that sounds like an oxymoron, like I'm able to hold a lot more discomfort I think this time around.

And I've.

And I've learned that like the more you're able to hold like the big grief and stuff, the more you're able to hold the joy too, you know, like, show me someone who's been through really insane heartbreak and I'll show you someone who really has a good sense of humor, you know?

That's so true.

Comes with it.

Yeah.

I feel like intellectually I understand that and think I can do that.

And then day to day I'm like, not really nailing it, but thank you.

Like you said, we're all human.

Yeah.

I want to like rewind in time a little bit to like some of your first thresholds, especially with queer identity.

Like what was one of the first big revelations when you started to realize that you identified as queer in some way?

In some way, I would say if, if we're talking about like the verb queer, like being strange, I have always felt that way.

So even as a kid I always felt like the black sheep.

I always felt like kind of just different than, and not able to really like accept the norms.

But then at the same time I was in a very conservative situation where, where there was no representation whatsoever.

Like representation was actually hidden from me of like queer stuff.

So I think the first time that I actually really had that thought was in college when I read a book for a women and gender studies class that was called the Queer Art of Failure.

And I just was so fascinated by the book itself.

It had like a little baby, like a little dead baby bird on the COVID And then it was just like that and I was like, ooh, I wonder what that means.

It was like the first time that I heard the word and was like ooh, in a non derogatory way.

I guess.

So I think that was the first little spark, even though I didn't connect to the dots.

And then a lot of dots started to connect.

Post pandemic when I had a lot of time, like I think a lot of us did, to be on TikTok and on the Internet and doing a lot of self reflection and realizing, oh yeah, like I've always, I've always been queer.

But like, let's just.

I think I'm also Like, gender fluid and all of these things, so.

And weirdly, like, coming out as, like, non binary felt safer than coming out fully as a lesbian because it was like, oh, well, that doesn't threaten necessarily, like, my relationship that I'm in right now.

We had a lot of conversations about it at that point, and I think that might have been the actual breakthrough if I hadn't been in a long term relationship.

And our boundaries were just different at that point.

And so I was just like, okay, well, I'm this, and I'll say that I'm this, but, you know, keep it kind of open because so I would say, like, this threshold has been years.

You know, it's almost like the final part of this summer.

Everything moving into place was just like walking through the final door.

And then later it was like, oh, I'm not into dudes at all.

Okay, and what was the label you used before?

Was that pansexual or pan?

Yeah, I feel like I switched between labels several times because there was just a lot of, like, not really knowing on top of.

I think when you have religious trauma too, like, it'll take a couple decades to deconstruct that, and then it takes that long to then have eyes to see, like, oh, okay, this is what it feels like to actually be in my body.

Because I think that had to come first.

I think I had to be able to feel myself first, which I just couldn't for a long time, you know, because it was like a protecting mechanism to keep me out of my body.

And.

And once I started feeling like, oh, I feel kind of tense in this situation, and I feel more open in this situation and started paying attention to that, it was like, oh, okay, this is gonna change how I operate in general.

So how did you learn to feel present and feel your body?

Because I feel like that's something I really struggle with.

I'm like, I'm just a brain walking around in a. I don't know.

Well, honestly, I think ecstatic dance helped a ton.

I go to this thing called ecstatic dance every week in the woods.

There's a bunch of us, we play loud music, and you basically can move your body however you want to.

Like, what the fuck is this?

You Know, like, this is so weird because I was so used to not being embodied that it was strange.

So I think that practice of being very intentional of feeling my body and moving around and stuff was something that opened the door.

And then I just got more and more curious about it because I was like, it feels better to listen to myself.

It turns out, you know, what if I just trust myself?

What if I trust myself a little deeper?

And I think it was just like a process.

I do love dancing with my toddler when he lets me, but lately there's a lot of no mommy.

Oh yeah.

When I start dancing, more cringe now.

Yeah, prepare to be more and more cringe.

But he's got great dance moves, so I guess I'll just watch.

Yeah, well, you know what?

Kids, I feel like, are such good teachers of embodiment because they haven't learned to disembody themselves yet.

So like, however he's wiggling, you should just like, even if he doesn't want to see you wiggling, just like watch him from around the corner and just like wiggle.

You know, even when I'm like singing along with him at home, I. He's in his frozen era, which I just mentioned in the last episode too.

That's incredible.

He loves belting Let it go and I'll like sing along with him.

Yeah.

But then like when we're around other people and he's singing along, I stop singing along because I feel like embarrassed about my voice and I'm like, not perfect.

And he doesn't care because he's 2 and I'm like, man, I just gotta be more like my 2 year old.

He gets it.

Exactly.

Yeah.

He hasn't had all the conditioning that I hope that he doesn't have to have, honestly.

But yeah, exactly.

So going back to like the labels you've used over time, I'm curious, like, however much you are open to talking about your first marriage, like, I kind of was under the impression from at least a distance and from social media that like you came out as pan and that was why you left that marriage.

But you're saying like the pan stuff was later on.

So was it like religious trauma?

Like, what were the thresholds and things that like.

Yeah.

Caused that chapter to end?

Yeah, it's really interesting.

And it's funny because I.

It's funny like thinking about other people's perceptions of it when you're the one who's like walking and I'm like, oh, that wouldn't have even occurred to me.

But I guess that makes sense.

Looking from the outside in.

I'm writing memoir about it, and I'm going through the timeline and I'm like, yeah, that actually.

Actually interesting because she was queer then.

Yeah, I was.

I just.

Everyone else knew but me, apparently.

Literally when I fully came out, all the friends that have known me for the longest and the.

The most are, like, not surprised at all.

So it's interesting how you can trick yourself.

But I. Yeah, my first marriage I don't mind talking about at all because we, you know, like, we co parent now.

It's just been a long enough time that it's like water under the bridge.

And I didn't.

I was going through, like, postpartum depression at the same time.

And, like, all of these things, and I did not have any box for that in my religious, like, worldview.

There wasn't.

It didn't really make sense.

So that cracked me open and made me start asking the question, like, what if I stopped trusting this, like, book and these people who are telling me I need to trust people in the pulpit or whatever, and I just started trusting myself.

And then from starting to trust myself, that's a dangerous thing to start doing.

It'll, like, change your entire life.

I started going to therapy.

I started recognizing how codependent our marriage was.

Like, I didn't even know the word codependent.

So it was a lot of that stuff first and a lot of like, oh, I don't want to be in this religion anymore, and he wants to go deeper, and that's just like, we're just two very different people in that way, you know?

So that was really why we broke up.

And then the pansexual stuff started happening, like, not long after where I was just like, oh, yeah.

I always try to do, like, parenthood as the second half of the show.

So, like, sometimes there's so much that, like, blends together, it's hard to separate.

I'm curious now, like, how much has that come up, the religious differences as you parent your kids constantly?

Yeah, oh, yeah.

It's constant.

And it's actually really interesting because.

Because now that my kids are a little older, like, they're, like, going into high school and middle school, they have a really healthy view of, like, life and how people live it compared to mine.

Because, like, I was raised in the bubble.

Like, I didn't Know that there was.

I was told this is the one white Right way to live.

And.

And also white.

So that was a funny slip in there.

Yeah.

Surrounded by, like, white Christians all the time, you know, until I went to college.

And I was like, well, you guys have been hiding the world from me, you know, So I didn't want my kids to have that.

And they don't have that experience.

They have the experience of being raised half in a Christian household, which, by the way, is way cooler about things than.

Than the way I was raised.

Not even by my parents, but, like, just the churches that I was in.

My kids are able to, like, joke about it.

Like, my daughter will be like, yeah, I'm like a church girl, you know, like, with air quotes.

And like, she loves it and she loves playing music.

But I.

It took me a long time to be okay with them having their own experience of it because for a while I was afraid, like, really afraid that it was going to F them up like it did for me.

And that's just not.

They're having a different experience.

But then also when they come to my house, they're having a very different experience.

You know, we.

Like, there's altars everywhere.

I'm a practicing witch.

I'm queer.

They know that.

Like, so I don't know.

There's just more accepting, I think, than a lot of the kids that I see that are really, really sheltered because they've had to just, like, walk the line.

But that's not to say that we don't have, like, disagreements and have to, like, figure it out and co parenting is hard.

And I don't know, we did.

We just figure it out.

Yeah, that's really cool that they're so accepting and open because I feel like as much as, like, I grew up Presbyterian and I had the same kind of, like, I love the music, I love the community.

Like, I got positive things out of it.

And only after I stopped going, I was like, oh, I was just in it for, like, the music in the community and not any other aspect of it.

That's where it's at, right?

The music and the community.

But I feel like people like, who are in it don't think Christians are judgy.

But once you're out of it, it's like Christians are so judgy of, like, everyone else and have these, like, high standards and rules and, you know, I shouldn't generalize about a group.

It definitely can be.

Yes, it's nice that you're.

They aren't all.

Yeah, they can that your kids have learned to be so accepting and open minded and.

Well, that's actually something that my kids are teaching me because I, I have those generalizations a lot because I also, like, was just like ragey mad after like all the trauma that I went through.

Because also, like, my sister was raised in the same situation and she sees it totally differently.

Like, it was a very different experience for her.

But my kids, when I make jokes and generalize about that, they get upset.

They're like, I feel like you're making fun of us, you know, and like, that really hit me the first time that that happened where I was like, yeah, I am.

That's fucked up.

I'm sorry.

Like, I'm not going to do that anymore.

Because I think that our world is just presented to us, especially on social media, as like very binary.

And it's not actually that way.

Like, most people that you talk to all want the similar things and we just all have different ideas of how to get there.

Like, everyone just wants safety for their family and like, you know, like to be able to live and.

Yeah, I don't know.

Most people that I've talked to are generally pretty nice.

It's like hard to hate a person close up.

Yeah.

Easy to hate a person online because you're not close to them.

I'm learning a lot from my kids.

That's awesome.

I find that so refreshing that you were able to just say like, yeah, it's fucked up that I did that.

I'm sorry.

Like, yeah, I know people talk a lot online about, like, we need to apologize to our kids.

Our parents never did that.

But like, actually doing it.

Yeah, yeah, easy.

No, it's not.

That's one of those, you know, practicing in discomfort things.

I'm like, yep, I was wrong.

Okay, let's move on.

Speaking of how people act online, I know this time around with your separation, your ex has been kind of processing a lot of that publicly on social media.

What has it been like to navigate all of that, especially when you have so many mutual friends kind of watching things unfold online?

Well, it was really.

To be honest, it was really, really frustrating for me initially because I thought that we were going to have a breakup that looked a certain way and I was happy about that and it just didn't end up being that way.

And obviously, like, humans have emotions and everybody's got to process their own way.

Cool.

But I have very.

I think it's become clear to me that we have very different boundaries about those things.

Very, very different boundaries.

So we had a couple of conversations where there were only, like, two posts that I was like, can you please take that down?

Because that's really disrespectful.

And he did.

But I got very quickly to a place where I was like, okay, to protect my peace, because I was noticing myself just, like, perseverating on it, and I had just left this relationship so that I could get more of my energy back, and I'm still giving my energy to this process.

So I was like, okay, like, this is not fair to me or to him to do this and to perseverate on this.

So I'm just gonna block him on everything, and I'm gonna tell everybody that I'm blocking him.

I'm not asking anybody to pick sides.

If you're still friends, that's totally fine.

But don't tell me, because I'm not interested.

You know, Like, I'm just protecting my.

My own peace and my own kids and our peace and, like.

But it's been really.

It's been a lot.

It's been really awkward, in my opinion.

There's a lot of other ways to process than like, that publicly, so.

But I don't.

I don't have any control over what anyone does, you know?

That sounds like the healthiest thing you could do is to.

Yeah.

Just step away.

Yeah.

Just.

You do.

You.

All right.

We're going to be over here.

And that was, like, a seven or eight year relationship.

Wow.

Yeah.

About seven.

Mm.

Yeah.

Going back to, like, the thresholds that we talked about, how, like, with both this and your past marriage, like, you had probably some comfort, stability, like, you're used to this relationship.

There's got to be, like, some love and fondness there still.

Oh, yeah.

So how do you.

Best friends.

Yeah, there's.

Yeah.

So how do you push yourself to, like, walk away from all of that, to be your most authentic self?

I don't think I pushed myself.

I think I got to the point after a couple years of processing because I was feeling irritated for a couple of years, like.

And there were things that I was doing.

Like, there was even, like, one time where I was drinking alcohol.

Like, I was drinking, like, some seltzer or something.

And, like, Chris Lindstrom was like, are you okay?

And I was just like, I'm fine.

But I was not fine because I'm sober.

I was like, don't ask me friend questions.

Don't notice what I'm doing.

God damn it, Chris.

Don't perceive me.

Don't perceive me.

My God.

So I Think I was just very internally moving through a process for a long time without being able to put words to it of like.

And essentially what I realized is I could smell the stench of like the relationship being dead for a long time without being able to name it.

That because things have life cycles and for me, I'm such a dynamic person that if there's not evolution happening, I start to feel really like trapped.

So honestly I think that I got to a point where.

And I was trying to figure out if it was me too, because also if you're in a long term relationship, there's highs and lows.

Like it's not gonna feel good all the time, like you're gonna have to have hard conversations.

And we definitely did a lot, but it was kind of more than that.

And I think for me, I was realizing that my intuition was very strongly leading me in a direction.

And I don't know about anybody else, but for me, when my intuition gets to us, to a certain threshold point, I can't not do it, otherwise I'm going to get sick is what I have learned in my life.

So the last time before I broke up with my first husband, I tried so hard not to for so many years that it made me suicidal.

So that was the moment in that relationship where I was just like, oh, it's either me live or me try to make this thing happen that's not supposed to be happening anymore and me die, you know.

And so with this one, it wasn't that extreme because I could feel the feeling and I had felt that feeling before.

So I was like, oh, okay.

It's like, I can fight this and cause myself a lot more suffering or I can just be honest about what's going on.

And when I was honest, our boundaries were very clearly different.

And so it was just like, okay, that sucks, it's.

But I think I wasn't honest for such a long time because I was afraid of losing the relationship.

So again, the threshold was like years long.

I think when I first came out as queer earlier in our relationship, I think that's when it started.

But I didn't realize that until like recently.

Like, oh, that's when it started to die.

When I kind of switched from loving to choose that to fearing to lose that, you know, and it's a very different internal feeling.

It's like bracing versus receiving life.

So I just couldn't not.

I was like, no, I can't.

Does that make sense?

It does.

It sounds like such a gift to like have that intuition and to be able to listen to it.

I think a lot of people, we probably all have intuition, but a lot of us probably just push it down, down, down and ignore it as much as we can because it's easier to stay the same.

Everyone does.

I think I just had the gift of.

The gift of suicidality, honestly.

Seriously.

Because it got.

It had to get to that point.

For me to finally choose listening to myself and then knowing that it can get to that point is like, oh, okay, yeah, this is way more important than any other voice in my life.

This is, like my internal compass and no one else's.

So, yeah, it's extreme, but I think that's literally what brought me to that point of.

Yep.

If I don't listen to myself, bad things happen.

Can you talk a little bit about, like, how you use art to process life and, like, how that works?

It's everything.

Art is my life.

Processing, like, art has always been my therapy.

I think I've said it in other podcast episodes before, but, like, I would still make art even if people weren't buying my art.

Like, it's kind of like a nice, happy accident that I have an art business.

You know, I love that other people resonate with my work, but I would make it anyway because it's such a therapeutic process.

And I don't know if you've ever heard of, like, Howard Gardner's theory of multiple intelligences.

It's been mostly disproven at this point, but it was something that I learned about in college, which is basically, like, all these different kinds of ways of seeing the world.

And one of them is, like visual, spatial, and one of them is, like, body kinesthetic.

It's like ways of learning.

And I always thought that I was very visual.

And then I realized it was actually a body kinesthetic.

It's less about, like, what the piece actually looks like, and more about what it feels like for me to make it.

Cause it's somatic.

It's like me moving my body.

I like painting because it's very physical.

And I really like live painting with music because it's very.

Like, my whole body is experiencing it.

And now that I know that emotions are also psychosomatic and everything's connected in the body, it's like moving things through in a very healthy way for me is painting as opposed to, you know, like, getting drunk, which is why I'm sober, you know?

Cause you gotta move the emotions through somehow.

So for me, it's like painting and playing and exploring.

So that's awesome.

And it's almost like the.

The physical pieces are like.

They're like an artifact of that process.

It's like, oh, yeah.

This physical piece came as a result of this process that I was having with myself.

That's really cool.

Yeah, thanks.

So you went from, like, the Darling Rage to Darling Revolution and then Reclaimed rage?

Yeah, kind of recently.

Can you talk about, like, the rage name and, like, the meaning behind it and all that?

Yeah, it is really funny that I went back to Darling Rage.

So, like, how do I make this a short, ish story?

All of these thresholds are years long.

So the Darling Rage was a name that I chose when I was first deconstructing, really.

And I really liked the juxtaposition of darling and rage together, because to me, it spoke to, like, you are beautiful and loved at every point in the process, including when you're, like, ragey and grimy and messy and, like, not sure.

So it, like, really spoke to that.

And then I changed it for a while to Darling Revolution because I was going through business coaching and I was trying to figure out my bigger why and my value set and all these things, and I wanted it to be more of, like, a movement.

So I was like, that's where, like, the revolution thing came from.

And then recently I came back to it because I'm like, it just feels so much more right to me.

Darling Revolution felt like a branding thing for a long time, and I'm glad that I did it because, you know, I've been at this business thing for a decade, and, like, you have to throw a lot of spaghetti against a wall and, like, try it out.

And that was one of those things.

I was like, no, I think we need to go back to Darling Rage because it just has always felt really right.

I feel like it has more stickiness, too.

I've always called you that in my head.

Instead of Revolution.

Yeah, yeah, it has more stickiness.

It sounds just better.

And it has more punch to it, I think.

Like, visceral.

It's like.

And the rage thing, I think is really important for women to embrace also.

So, like, that's kind of part of it too, because in my work as a coach, as an imagination doula, like, if you're birthing something, you know, if you're birthing something out of your body, you need some anger in there, like, or some, you know, that kind of intensity to get the thing through.

And I think a lot of times, like, women and femmes are given the conditioning that we're not allowed to, or it's like not polite for us to feel rage.

And that's such bullshit because it's one of the most powerful things in the world.

Like female rage gets shit done.

Yeah, that is so true.

You know, it births babies, etc.

So that's the.

What is it?

TLDR too long.

Didn't read.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I know right now you have a day job.

You've sometimes been full time with your art in the past.

Can you talk about like the economics of having an art business and like what goes into it?

Yeah, it's actually really interesting because another transition that I'm playing with right now is I'm.

I'm continuing to be at my day job, but it's probably going to look a little bit different because I'm.

My art business is starting to gain momentum again.

I think the biggest thing with having a business, especially like a creative business, is that you have to be okay with it not looking a certain way and you have to be okay with cross pollinating and like having a diverse ecology of income streams.

You know, like, I like to think of it as a garden and some things, like if I have a brand new offer, I don't think of it as like, like if you have a brand new baby, you're not going to ask it to go out and put on a tie and like earn all your income.

You know, like, it's a baby, it's a toddler, it needs some time to like grow.

So it wouldn't be, it wouldn't be kind or wise of me to like put all of my eggs in this one basket when it's evolving.

I think what happened was the last 3ish years that I haven't been full time.

It's because a lot of my creative energy was going into this internal threshold process and I needed more stability externally.

So I was like, you know, this is perfect.

I'll just, I'll go work in hr.

And it's been really fun actually.

And I think that it lends itself to also cross pollinating because I'm inspired by living life too.

Yeah.

So sometimes when you take some space from the creative practice, it allows it to grow a little bit more.

And I found that coming back to you, I'm like, okay, the momentum is back.

And I don't even mean inspiration, I mean momentum of some of these things that I'm bringing.

So to answer your question, it has to be dynamic, at least for me, because sometimes things sell really well in a certain season and sometimes that's not what's Needed.

I think it's easy for people too to see other artists on Instagram with huge followings and be like, oh, they just sell so many prints.

Or they're an amazing muralist doing all this work around the world.

But like, they don't see all the work behind the scenes that went into that.

They don't know they might not actually be making that much money.

Like, you have no idea.

All.

I just need you to.

I'm gonna hold your hands when I say this.

I know so many people with big followings who don't make money off of it.

So just please, if you see someone even with like a hundred thousand followers, doesn't necessarily mean that they're making full time money off of it.

Yeah, it's like, it's such a smokescreen sometimes if you don't know that people are just, just, we're just on Instagram, Instagram showing the good stuff.

And I know a lot of people actually who are very financially successful artists who have less than a thousand followers.

Right.

So.

And it.

And it can be both ways also.

Well, I want to switch gears to motherhood soon, but just one more question on art.

Can you talk about like, what's next or anything exciting on the horizon with your art?

It sounds like there might be some good stuff coming up.

There's lots of good stuff coming up.

I have really been enjoying the heck out of making these energy portraits lately because it combines my intuitive, like esoteric channeling skills with making art.

So that's been really fun.

I basically like people.

People have been coming to me with all kinds of things, but it's mostly like the question I ask is, what's alive for you?

I have someone send me a voice note of that and then I listen to it, I feel the energy, I pull cards and then whatever comes through the messages becomes this energy portrait.

And it's really cool because they're like magical artifacts in and of themselves.

Like, people have been having them on their phone lock screens, interacting with them every day and noticing that it's creating this relationship with themselves through the art, which is my favorite thing about art.

So the energy portraits are fun because it's like these little portals that people can be self reflect, like be with themselves.

I've been loving seeing the ones you're posting and still love the one you did for me like years and years ago.

You got the, you got the first version of that when I was doing like physical ones.

Physical ones which might come back.

But I've, I've been having so much fun with digital collage that.

Yeah, they're gorgeous.

Yeah.

Thank you.

All right, well, let's take a quick break, and then we'll talk some more about motherhood after that.

Sounds good.

So I want to hear some more about your motherhood journey.

Molly, how old are your kids?

You said going into middle school and high school.

My oldest. My daughter is 14, and my son is going to be 11 in a couple of weeks, so that's freaking me out.

Yeah.

What.

What kind of stuff are they into these days?

So much stuff.

They're so cool.

They're so much cooler than I was at that age, too, which is fun to see because I feel like that's how it should be.

Let's see.

My daughter is in varsity swim, so she's really good at it because she's a freshman.

She's in varsity, so she's been doing two a day practices and coming home and being like, mom, look at my muscles.

And I'm like, yes, this is so exciting for you.

But she also really likes music.

She's teaching herself ukulele.

She's teaching herself piano.

She's on, like, worship team at church, and she loves, like, playing.

She's got a band that she has started with her friends.

I don't know how that's going, but it's like, it's at least an idea that's out there.

And then my son is so creative.

He just will, like, fabricate things out of nothing all day long.

Like, last night he was like, I need a big box because I need to make this, like, cat gamer hotel for my friend's kittens.

And I was like, okay.

And I go back up to his room an hour later, and he's, like, crafted and constructed and painted this whole thing.

He wants to be a director, a chef, and a car mechanic when he grows up.

And I'm absolutely sure he's gonna do.

All of those amazing.

And he's also playing flag football, and they're both very active, which I love for them, so.

And they're excited about school because they're wild extroverts.

Like, I am.

So one less thing to worry about.

So what do you love doing with them lately?

Oh, my gosh, we're so nerdy together.

It's actually really funny.

We were just at the mall today, and my daughter picked out a pair of socks for me that she was like, mom, these are socks.

Exactly.

Made for you.

And you know what they said on them?

They said, easily distracted by boobies.

And I was like, wow, I'M so glad that my kids are know that I'm a lesbian and love that I'm a lesbian.

Yeah, the more you know.

But we really like playing video games.

We like, we really like movies and shows.

We're really big like comic book fans as a whole family.

So we're like into Marvel.

They're old enough now to watch some of the Marvel stuff that they weren't able to watch when they were littler.

So we do that.

We love being outside.

Really likes going to the skate park.

We just really like hanging out and a lot of times when it's just the three of us, like, they're so funny.

They'll just like put costumes on and make a show for me basically.

Like, yeah, I have so many videos.

We just like hanging out and we like music a lot.

So we're all a huge 21 pilots household and we're going.

I'm taking them to see 21 pilots in Ohio Stadium next month and they're.

We're so thrilled.

So that's going to be a fun.

I think there's going to be more travel in our future.

So.

Very cool.

What's the custody split with your ex husband?

That is something we're also talking about.

I have them as much as I can have them.

So it's.

It's 50, 50 when they're not in school.

Gotcha.

And when they're in school they're at hfl, which is Lima is where they live with their dad and stepmom.

But it's been such a good school for them that it's like, like, you know why?

But they're with me most weekends so.

It sounds like really fun.

Ages 10 and 14.

They're so much fun.

And they like don't need me to like take care of them, which is still weird to me.

Like, yeah, like this is not normal for an 11 year old.

And I, I know this.

But he has learned how to make omelets this summer.

Like good.

Like veggie omelets.

Like he's like, I need an onion and I need two peppers.

And like he chops them all up and he will not let me make his omelet.

Cause he does it better.

They're in the independent phase where they're just doing their thing and talks to her friends all the time and she's in friend mode.

And I don't know, we're just all kind of like bopping around in the house together doing our own Thing, which is fun, but it's very different than the toddler phase where everyone needs to be chased around to make sure that they stay alive.

And I know you're in that phase.

Yeah.

It's hard to imagine him being more independent someday.

Yeah, it gets easier.

Yeah.

What are some of the hard parts now?

I think some of the hardest parts now are just like the differences in co parenting because we have very, just very different approaches.

And so, like, as a teenager, for example, like, the other set of parents have a very different viewpoint of how she acts as a 14 year old and like, that she's a jerk and stuff.

And I'm just like, do you guys remember being 14?

Right.

We were all assholes at 14.

That's pretty developmentally appropriate for her to be an asshole.

But I don't even agree that she is one.

I think she's.

I think she just has an opinion.

And in cultures that are a little more conservative, that's not always well received.

So those are the kind of the hard parts is like figuring out mostly, like, not being able to be there for them 24 7, but being able to, like, counsel them as much as I can when I'm not there to, like, this is how you, like, move through hard feelings.

I'll talk you through it.

This is how you can, you know, shake it out.

And it's.

Yeah, it's hard not being there all the time, but that's always been true.

So you've been a mom for 14 years now.

Yeah.

How have you changed over those 14 years as a mom?

so much. My self, 14 years ago would be absolutely blown away with who I am now.

But I also feel like me now is.

Is the being that was like, pulling her forward at the the same time.

So I have that kind of like, weird time dynamic with it.

So different.

I mean, when I had them, I was both.

I was in the church, super closeted worship leader, very repressed, like a, Like a totally different person.

And I think motherhood was one of the things that really like, broke me open, as it does, because suddenly, I don't know, life is happening and you don't know yourself anymore.

Like, your body's totally different.

And you're like, how do I relate to this?

And I think the biggest change for me with motherhood has come from going through the phases of like, okay, this is what motherhood is supposed to look.

Supposed to look like, should look like.

And years and years and years of trying to do that and hating that, because that's not me at all.

And Then finally realizing, okay, that sucks.

I don't want to do it that way.

Let me do it this way.

And now I feel like I'm a mother and also completely me at the same time.

And that's really fun.

And it's really magical because it, like, helps the kids unlock who they are fully, too, because they're seeing a mom who's not, like, sacrificing herself for them.

Because I know we're given messaging a lot, that that's the most important thing.

But actually, the most important thing for kids is to see a mother who's healthy and chooses herself.

So having boundaries with them, they've learned where it's just cool.

Cause now that they're old enough, there will be times when I'll be really tired and, like, my son mostly.

Cause he's a little Libra, so, sweetie, he'll be like, mom, you seem kind of off.

Do you need some quiet time?

Do you need some alone time?

And I'm like, yeah, you're right.

I do.

And he's like, okay, well, go upstairs to your room.

See you in an hour.

You know, like, it's really sweet.

So they're learning from my modeling, which is then reverberating back to me from them, kind of like modeling that back, which is really cool.

So I guess all that to say, yeah, we've just all grown up together.

Yeah.

What are some examples of, like, the ways you started being more yourself or, like, did your parenting style change in specific ways or.

Because I was so just, like, repressed for such a long time.

So repressed, so conditioned.

So, like, small in the way that I, like, lived in the world.

Because I learned to be as a survival strategy.

I just was really, like, fear based in all of my.

I don't know.

I just, like, I was just nervous about everything, which made me really avoid it.

So I would just avoid things or not, like, avoid my children, but just have a hard time, like, facing the parenting realities of it all, you know, just being like, I'm just gonna do whatever we can to, like, pass the time quickly.

For example, especially when they were littler and when I didn't really have a lot of help and it was just me, and it's, like, really overstimulating.

Yeah, absolutely.

It's a lot.

I think I gave up a lot more and a lot more easily.

And now I'm just like, oh, like, we're all just doing this messy life thing together.

It doesn't have to look perfect.

Because perfectionism was also a thing that I Had to deconstruct, too.

I'm not a perfectionist anymore.

Not at all.

I love quality and I love good boundaries, but I don't care.

I'm like, you do you the way that makes sense for you.

So I think the more that I've learned to trust myself, the more that that's been the most important value to instill in my children is like, helping them learn to trust themselves.

Because I wasn't taught that, like, I had to, like, stumble through it over, like, decades of, like, fucking up and finding out.

Yeah, it's so hard with how much advice is on Instagram, not like, even 10 years ago when your kids were little.

There's probably so much less.

And, like, I think I'm doing a good job with my son and I'm not making him not trust himself.

But then sometimes I'm like, oh, I'm like, saying no a lot.

Or, like, stop that.

Or knock it off if he's, like, doing something unsafe or, like.

And I'm like, do I need to be listening to all these Instagram posts that are like, phrase this this specific way so that they don't get damaged for life?

You know, gentle parenting doesn't work.

Yeah, it's like finding the right middle ground and boundaries.

The assertiveness, like, yeah.

Also encouraging them to blossom and be themselves.

And yeah, I think, well, you were saying that.

And I had another realization.

And, like, I think part of my growth was also releasing the fact that I have fucked up.

I will fuck up.

I'm going to fuck up.

Like, and not, like, trying to pretend that I won't.

You know, like, there are going to be things probably that the kids will have to unpack about their mom, because we all have to do that.

But I think that's made me less tense about doing a good job.

You know, I'm like, okay, you can apologize and just do better next time, but it's really hard.

There's, like, there's so much noise online and it's like.

And yeah, the gentle parenting thing, I think, like, emotional literacy is important, but our kids also really need to know that we've got it with the boundaries.

Like, the kids should not be leading.

Yeah.

With the boundaries.

And that actually makes them feel safer.

And I have the data to prove it because it's been working with my kids.

So I want to go back to what you were saying about, like, being fear based for such a long time.

How did you unlearn that, like, fearful mindset that was so ingrained again?

I think it Was like a matter of life and death for me.

But it continues to be like, it's.

Life is a spiral and it's like we go through these layers and you're like, oh, I thought I learned this lesson already.

But we're learning it from a new perspective.

And it's funny because you get to a certain point and you're like, okay, I've learned all the lessons and.

But obviously there's more lessons.

I think I thought I was completely free of, like the fear based stuff when I left my first marriage.

I was like, yes, I've done it.

I left the church, I left this guy.

It's fine.

Everything's gonna be fine now.

And then I realized that, like, fundamentalism can show up in most places, not just church.

And so I had to like, deal with that and be like, oh, okay.

It just is true that fear is just part of it.

And I could either, like, demonize it.

I think it's more that I've like, accepted fear as just being part of the tea party of emotions that happen.

It's just like, it happens.

I think reading a lot of Liz Gilbert helped because she talks about fear in her book Big Magic.

And she talks about how if you really listen to fear long enough and deep enough, you realize that it just says the same thing over and over again.

And that's stop.

It's like, stop, stop, stop, stop, stop.

And that's just kind of a boring record to follow as like your life, you know, like GPS system.

So I don't think that happened in just one moment for me.

I think it happened over, like, lots of layers and continues to.

Right.

Because like, I still am afraid of shit.

Like, the more I expand, it's just that the.

The things I'm afraid of just change.

But there's still things I'm afraid of.

But the conversation that I have with fear now is, hey, I understand why you're here.

You think that the X, Y and Z is going to happen again.

It's not.

We're in a different space.

But that makes sense.

And also, you don't get to be in the driver's seat.

Like, me and creativity are in the driver's seat.

And you can be back here with a juice box.

Like, you can be along for the ride, but you don't get to be in the driver's seat.

That's so interesting.

The fear is telling you to stop.

Like, I have never thought of it that way.

Really.

I'm gonna definitely think about that some more after this conversation.

Yeah, it's the bracing.

It's like the like.

And then avoiding the thing.

Wow.

How has rage come up for you as a mom?

Like, going back to the darling rage name?

I know there's, like, discourse about mom rage and how much more common it is than people think.

Huh?

Yeah.

That's why, like, you know, the trial that has been going on and everything has been really interesting because it's like, wow, Nobody understands what it's like to be a mother at all.

It seems that's the Lindsay Clancy trial for folks who are listening to this at a way later date.

Yes.

Yes.

I couldn't.

Thank you.

I couldn't remember the name.

But yet.

Because it's not just postpartum depression, first of all, isn't just depression.

It's like, it showed up for me as a lot of rage.

Like, it showed up for me as, like, having scary thoughts about myself and my kids and being like, is this normal for me to want to throw my baby out a window?

You know, like, because.

But it.

But it turns out it is.

Like, that's just something.

If you deal with postpartum depression or, like, mother.

Is it like, motherhood psychosis or something?

You know what I mean?

Postpartum psychosis.

Yeah.

Those things are just.

Are.

Are things that happen.

But also when you're through, like, the baby stage and your kids are older, there's other things to be enraged about.

And most of those things are the world around them.

For me, most of those things are things that I'm like, I hate that you fucking have to deal with this.

Like, you shouldn't have to deal with this.

I hate that.

But I try to transmute that rage into, like, okay, what can I actually do about this versus, like, just being angry?

Because another thing that I think has helped is that any emotion, like a pure emotion of feeling only actually lasts in your body for about 90 seconds, and everything after that is a story that we tell about that emotion.

So, like, noticing that has been really helpful.

Like, oh, what story am I making about this?

And letting myself feeling the rage.

Rage also comes up around co parenting a lot with me, obviously, because it's like, we have very different approaches, and sometimes other approaches that I don't think are correct make me very ragey.

So I just have to.

I have to deal with that.

You're dropping, like, so many gems of insight tonight that I'm like.

Like the.

I. I know the feelings.

Being a story that you, like, repeat.

I think I'd heard that 92nd thing before, but I'm thinking about like, what I learned from my mom growing up, she definitely would, like, retell the same stories, the same emotions, and, like, get people on her side and, like, always be the victim.

And, like, this happened to me, and it's so un.

And blah, blah, blah.

You know, I know I tend to do that sometimes.

Or, like, I feel angry or frustrated or irritated a lot of the time, and then I'm, like, telling other people about that to get validation and then getting stuck in a cycle of just being constantly, like, grumpy and annoyed.

It's, like, not helpful.

Yeah, it's like.

And like, pardon the metaphor, but it's kind of becomes like, eating your own shit.

It's like, let me just keep on putting this in my mouth.

Like, and it just.

And that's not to say, like, feeling those emotions is a negative thing.

I think it's just perseverating on them.

And the victim mindset can be a slippery slope.

But when people are in that.

As a person who has been in victim mindset for parts of my life, it does give you something.

It gives you a sense of superiority.

It gives you a sense of, I've been wronged, and so everyone should validate me, and it still gives you something.

So I have a lot of compassion for that.

But it's also been really mind blowing to understand what all that is.

And rather than judging it and other people, like, realizing, oh, that is all in me too.

And, like, I, at any given moment, have the ability to go into those things again.

So it's like a constant noticing and renegotiation.

This is why, like, I journal every day and I make art.

It's so that I can process and notice those things when they come up because they don't go away.

Like, I love.

I love being.

Being a victim sometimes because it's like, oh, everyone will feel bad for me, and that will get me attention, you know, like, it's just a very human thing to do.

But I think motherhood has been one of those things that's helped me notice that so that I can say it for myself, but also for my kids.

Be like, okay, so you're having this feeling.

How's it actually feeling in your body right now?

Okay, that sounds like anger.

Cool.

Like, that makes sense.

Someone stepped over your boundaries, which is what rage is, by the way.

It's like someone crossed a boundary.

And so the reason is very valid.

But, like, now what are we doing with that energy?

Are we just, like, siphoning it through or what's happening, you know?

And I'm an artist and so I'm like, we should be using materials for creating something new, including emotions.

Like, like, we shouldn't just like, keep them stuck in here.

Like, let them out.

Yeah.

You know, like, I think I let them out through venting with someone and then I'm.

I'm like, it's so valid, right?

Like, my frustration is valid.

Or like, if Tim tries to give me like a silver signing to something, I'm like, no, I know, but it's still frustrating and like, I want the validation, but then I need to like, do something more.

And I like your idea about like, pouring it into something creative or like using the energy for something else instead of getting stuck.

Yeah.

And the creative thing could literally even just be like writing a bunch of swear words on a canvas, which is what I did for years, by the way.

Like, I might have talked about this before, but, like, there's.

There's a lot of paintings that are out there in the world that like, if and when art historians look underneath the layers, a lot of them will say, fuck you, Harold.

And it's not my friend Harold who's part of the Velvet Noose, by the way.

It's just like my inner critic.

And I use that as a way to process for a long time.

But all these art historians are gonna be like, who is Harold and why is she so mad?

And it was just that I was processing rage before I processed whatever else.

Needed to come up.

So just write a bunch of fuck yous on a paper and it'll help.

You mentioned before that, like, we'll all have to go to therapy someday.

Kids will have to go to therapy.

What do you hope or think your kids will say about you in therapy when they're older?

Oh my God, what do I hope they'll say?

They've already both been in therapy, which is so that.

So I know that things have been said already about how it's challenging that their mom and dad aren't together.

So I think that that's going to be something.

But I kind of hope that they'll talk about me from the standpoint of like, oh my gosh, my mom liberated herself.

This is like my fever dream of what they'll say.

She liberated herself and then she liberated us.

And like, it was so inspiring.

And this is why we're so creative, is because our mom is so creative.

Like, very self serving kind of story.

But honestly, all I want for them to be able to say is that their mom was able to apologize and repair when things get broken.

Because they just do and listen to them, which is the feedback I'm getting from them right now.

And I hope it continues.

I listen to them.

I try not.

And sometimes it's really hard to not interrupt and be like, yeah, but that's not correct.

And it's like, no, they're trying to connect with me by telling me their perspective on something.

Especially when your kid gets to be a teenager, it's like the difference between having a dog and a cat.

Dogs are really excited.

That's like little kids, they're excited to hang out with.

With you.

And cats, you cannot directly approach, like, teenagers are cats.

Like, you just kind of have to be like, so you want to have dinner and like, maybe talk about something, you know, like, tell me about the things you're interested in.

So I hope that they feel heard when they're with me.

That's my biggest desire.

It sounds like you're doing a really good job of that.

Thanks.

I'm trying.

Did you ever.

You mentioned, like, their parents aren't together.

They talk about that.

Like, did you ever think, like, oh, I should stay together for the kids in either of your relationships?

Or was that not really on your mind as much?

Yes, I think with their dad, that's what took me so long.

Cause again, it was like a years long process of kind of knowing that I was feeling uncomfortable kind of from the beginning.

Honestly, though, because, like, we got married, I was really young.

I was like 21.

So it was more just like the individuation process of getting to know myself and being like, oh, why the fuck did I get married at 20?

That's crazy.

There was definitely moments, but that was happening in tandem with me being like, yeah, but what if I trusted myself, though, and this doesn't feel good.

And I think the moment for me that changed it with their dad was I noticed doing something that I was doing a lot, which was like, making myself physically small.

Like, I would just like, do this without realizing it.

And she was like five and I saw her do that and I was like, hell, no.

No, I'm not gonna teach her this.

Like, I refuse.

So it became that, like, okay, I'm gonna leave and no one's gonna understand and I'm gonna become the villain.

But they'll still have their mom or I try to push through and I don't survive another week.

And that's what happened.

Like, I left the church and most people didn't understand, and most people villainized me.

And that also gave me a very thick skin.

So, like, Not a lot of stuff can scare me at this point.

Like, I've been excommunicated.

Like, what can you do to me?

I don't know.

You got your villain origin story.

Yeah, the first time.

Just to wrap up.

I'm curious, like, with being an imagination doula as well.

If any listeners want to tap into their own creativ, what advice would you give them?

Oh, my gosh.

Well, I would start with just, like, taking time to be with yourself, which I know can be really hard in our day and age of like, a tiny TV on, like, your fingertips all the time.

But just, like, take some time to be quiet with yourself and just, like, maybe even put on some music and just, like, do some doodling and just see what comes out.

I teach this class called Ugly Art, and it's really, really cool to give people a space to, like, literally listen to music, let yourself feel whatever feelings and, like, scribble fuck shit up.

And also, don't try to make something pretty just like.

Just like word vomit or color vomit or whatever on a page and just see what happens and then go from there.

Find something interesting that happened on that page and then let that be the breadcrumb for, like, the next thing.

Suddenly you're in a new life experience.

I love that.

That sounds like a great exercise.

And if you want support in that process.

I am an imagination doula, and I help people birth things, projects, sometimes new lives, new identities.

Like, if you're moving through a divorce or a threshold, it's a perfect time for an imagination doula because I'm basically there to hold your face and be like, it hurts, but it's going to be okay.

And now's the time to push meaning, draw, paint, whatever you're doing.

And it's really transformative work.

I love that I've landed on this work because all the people that I've worked with so far, I just love seeing people get to a place where they have that spark, where they're like, oh, my God, no.

Like, I can trust myself.

I, like, cry every time.

Like, this is exactly.

This is exactly it.

Because I want it to be so that you don't need me.

And you can like, yourself is your own guide, you know?

So hit me up, y'all.

I'm the darling rage on all the places.

And we'll link to that in the show notes, too.

Thank you, Molly, so much for joining me.

This was great.

Absolutely.

Thanks for having me.

So fun.

This has been a presentation of the Lunchador podcast Network.