Chris Boardman won an Olympic gold medal on the track, set multiple hour records and wore the Tour de France yellow jersey on three different occasions after dominating the prologues.

Bobby Julich and Jens Voigt check in on their former teammate to discover how he's juggling his post-cycling careers of commentary, UK politics, engineering and pushing grassroots sport.

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Hello everyone, and welcome back

to another episode of The Odd Tandem.

2

My name is Bobby Julich and sitting

across from me virtually is Jens Voigt.

3

Jens.

4

I hear that you are going to be headed

over to the tour de France

5

and hanging off the back of a motorcycle

here in a couple of days.

6

I mean, it's Thursday before the tour.

7

Are you getting excited?

8

I am, and yes, I will be

9

for the first nine days on a motorbike

starting in Florence.

10

Florence.

11

Beautiful Italy,

nine days on a motorbike for Eurosport.

12

Commentating live from the race

which will be absolutely fantastic.

13

But also nerve wracking.

14

So you know, a lot of you, Christian Vande

15

Velde, a couple of our other friends

do the same thing for other networks.

16

What is the pucker factor when you're

on the back of that motorcycle?

17

Is there a couple times

where you're just kind of hanging on

18

and hoping that everything works

out? Or is it pretty safe?

19

Mostly it's pretty safe.

20

Yes, absolutely.

21

But yeah, well, I got a motorbike license,

so I knew what I was was getting into.

22

But literally,

your life is in the hands of the pilot.

23

There's nothing, absolutely nothing

you can do to influence that.

24

So when you're on a motorbike,

you've got to be a little bit proactive.

25

It's not like you get in a car

and you put on a seatbelt and relax

26

and fall to sleep. That doesn't work.

27

You got to be watching ahead

to make sure you see

28

if the road turns to the left

or to the right,

29

or if the crash is happening

and your pilot has to brake.

30

The last thing he needs is you 80 kilos

of weight bouncing into his back

31

when he's trying to control the motorbike

and his own weight.

32

So you've got to be awake all day long.

33

there's a few moments where you go.

34

I wouldn't do this,

35

but since the pilot is doing it,

you go, well, I guess I gotta follow.

36

And if he leans to the left,

everything instead of you screams.

37

I don't want to lean down.

38

I don't know what lead to the left,

but you have to,

39

because that's

for the balance of the bike.

40

So you have to follow, the pilot.

41

But so far I had 4 or 5 different pilots.

42

I like them all.

43

So I have no problem.

44

I have no trust issues.

45

The guys are good, even though

at the start I always go, hey, listen.

46

I'm happily married with children.

47

I want to go home in one piece.

I hope you two.

48

And that's how we work.

49

Well, thank you for for doing that for us.

50

I mean, I know

we don't have Eurosport over here, but,

51

it it adds a really cool

aspect to the sport.

52

But talking about that,

53

adding a

54

cool aspect to the sport,

we had such a cool guest today.

55

He was world

champion, Olympic champion on the track.

56

He was a specialist and innovator.

57

One of our old teammates, Chris Boardman.

58

How cool was that

Jensie speaking with old Chris?

59

I know it was absolutely amazing,

brought back so many memories.

60

He was my first roommate

in, first training camp

61

December 97.

62

We had the first training camp,

the first come together

63

training camp, my first roommate,

and it was absolutely fantastic.

64

I was, of course intimidated, you know,

Olympic champion, world champion, and,

65

you know, on the track later

on a road time training.

66

So it was absolutely great to catch up.

67

And he is still a bundle of knowledge

68

and a bundle of wisdom.

69

Yeah.

70

I was super happy that we got him

71

speaking so much because, you know,

when he was in the team bus,

72

he always had his head buried in a book

and said very, very little.

73

So sit back and relax

and listen to our great interview

74

with Commander Chris Boardman.

75

All right everyone, pretty special episode

for Jensie

76

and I today here on the Odd Tandem

we have Commander Chris Boardman.

77

Chris, welcome to the show.

78

No one's saluting. Why is no one saluting

79

this?

80

It’s taken me ages to train the kids.

81

Actually.

82

In fact,

with my little bit of history knowledge.

83

Are you holding the same rank as Mr.

84

James Bond?

85

actually, I had this conversation

with my wife, apparently.

86

Daniel Craig or I went to school with us,

I think, you know, did you know that?

87

I don't know if you do that.

88

I was in the same class at school

with, with Daniel Craig.

89

I think he's got a higher rank.

But I'm not bitter.

90

Not bitter at all.

91

The way that it works in

92

in England

with the abbreviations, with the titles.

93

Can you kind of

94

tell us the, the steps of these titles

because, you know, Mark Cavendish was,

95

is now sir Mark Cavendish,

you are now Commander Boardman.

96

But can you explain to our listeners

over here in the States

97

that what does that mean exactly?

98

And what is the tiers of it?

99

I think it means

100

Mark can tell me to do push ups,

and I can tell you to do push ups.

101

I think that's how it works.

102

Roughly speaking.

103

It's, there's loads of them.

104

There's loads of them and they've all got.

105

It's just this ancient stuff

that's actually quite quirky and, to to

106

to understand if you ever take the time.

107

But it's just a nice recognition

of what people do.

108

And, you know, certainly

Mark deserves his stuff doesn’t he.

109

He's been

110

God I can't believe

how long he's been around

111

when in bike races when you count it up,

how many.

112

It's just ridiculous.

113

So it's just nice

as a way to to recognise it.

114

What do you have in the States?

115

We I don't think we have anything.

116

You have money,

you know, outside of the military,

117

probably the next big thing is probably

Bobby gets a lifetime

118

senator suite in the Trump Tower.

119

That's probably his acknowledgment,

120

whether you like it or not, man,

we can't talk politics on the show, right?

121

Right. Andy? No.

122

is that a rule?

123

If you got a rule about so politics.

124

I live in politics now.

125

I don't know how it happened,

but I'm, like, involved in it.

126

And actually, I'm

127

technically, contractually

not allowed to talk about politics

128

because I work for the government.

129

But, Chris, let's let's start

right from the beginning.

130

How and when

and where did you start cycling?

131

When did you discover that, hey,

cycling might be a sport for myself?

132

Let's start at the beginning here.

133

Oh my God, that's a long time ago.

134

When I was 13, I mean, cycling

135

was like a family thing, and that's

what we did on a Thursday night.

136

We'd all go somewhere,

so, I mean, dad could ride a race,

137

and then eventually there

let me have a go in the race.

138

And then it sort of started from there,

really. And then it became,

139

well, gets a bit deep, really.

140

But, you know, that's a way

to have some self-esteem as a young kid.

141

And then it becomes how you meet girls

and then then it becomes your sport.

142

And then then it's your job

and then your 32.

143

So it's it's quite a rapid journey.

144

And it was, it was interesting,

but I've enjoyed the bit afterwards.

145

You were always one of the most

intellectual cyclists I ever came across.

146

And, you know, I came to the team

that you were a big part of

147

started as gone

148

and then switched over to,

149

And that just happened to be the year

that you retired.

150

But, you know, you had a big influence

on the young riders, you know,

151

Stuart O'Grady, Magnus Backstedt,

Jensie the list goes, goes on and on.

152

So what are some of your memories

153

of these young kids

that became legends of the sport?

154

when when they just kind of came to gone

and Credit Agricole in those early days?

155

You must you must have just been sitting

there scratching your head a little bit.

156

The probably not as wholesome

as you had been my first

157

when you just said, these young

kids, your influences.

158

I can remember sitting there

159

with a pint in Paris airport going,

I am a man, I could drink this.

160

And then we it was it got quite messy.

161

after it.

162

I kinda remember the human bit of it,

but we were all kids.

163

We were all in our early 20s or mid 20s,

and just finding our way...

164

And it was just absolutely fascinating.

165

we we we have money.

166

When you weren't supposed to have money

at that age and people bought cars

167

and did stupid things,

Jensie was actually the sensible one.

168

He was

the one we'd like, had an estate car

169

not to take people to the airport

because everyone else bought sports cars.

170

And I think you were the one

who mowed the grass at your place as well.

171

so it was a real mixed bag, but it was,

172

it was looking back,

it was just kids with status

173

and the money

that they had no idea what to do with it.

174

I think on the on the bike riding a bit,

I just like making things.

175

I was fascinated with performance

and how you get better and,

176

and I'd had some experiences where

177

I'd bumped into some

178

people outside of our world,

aerodynamicist and engineers,

179

and they just asked brilliant questions

like, what do you ride in that position?

180

What do you do in this position?

181

And then I had an experience in a wind

tunnel that allowed me to go and explore.

182

And so that knowledge came into our world,

183

and it was such cycling

was such a closed shop in those days.

184

The previous person

that had really changed things was Greg

185

LeMond, where he'd come in with a

186

wholly different experience,

and he he changed the way we did things.

187

So every few years I think

new knowledge comes into the sport.

188

And I brought some from Lotus

and engineers that, that,

189

that made a difference.

190

and it was good fun actually.

191

It was part good.

192

Thought it,

it was part really horrible as well,

193

because I used to get a real kick

194

in every time we used to go up a mountain,

and I didn't enjoy that bit.

195

And for all of us to, to for a better

196

understanding,

crisp design back in the days when we had

197

it was still officially allowed

to use a front wheel off a smaller size.

198

Chris had his own designed,

fork and handlebar combination,

199

so his handlebars would be coming out

on top of the fork and not on

200

top of the steering or part of the

frame, but out on the forks.

201

Absolutely fantastic design.

202

Nowadays,

I think they declare all that illegal, but

203

yet Chris was quite innovative,

I have to admit.

204

Right, Chris,

that was you only road, these type

205

of of a fork and frame combination right?

206

Yeah.

207

It was it was driven by understand

208

that, previous understanding of

of being in wind tunnels and knowing that,

209

what shape I could get me into.

210

And I'm 80% of the frontal area,

so get me smaller.

211

Makes a big difference.

212

and I had some experience in wind tunnels

that showed me that difference.

213

So when I came to the pro world

and you had bikes,

214

that was has a small, medium

and large pick thinking, well,

215

you'd taken away most of the advantage

I've had.

216

luckily that we worked for somebody

that would let me

217

bring my own ideas,

bring my own stuff with me.

218

and that was.

219

That was really important. Really.

220

I'm not sure all teams

would have done that.

221

So I designed my own, handlebar

222

and fork combination

that I got manufactured in the UK

223

so I could get the position

that I wanted on a bike.

224

and then

the werewolf we were sponsored by.

225

I think it was Eddie Merckx in those days.

226

Eddie Merckx bikes, which were pretty,

227

agricultural in their design.

228

and we had the flexibility to go, well,

I've actually got this Lotus machine.

229

Could we use that?

230

And we had a boss in Roger Legeay

that went okay,

231

I'll see if I can square that.

I made it work. In fact.

232

No, it wasn't when I first started.

233

It was, it was actually Greg LeMond.

234

But he was so obsessed with performance,

even though he was sponsoring the team,

235

he went, yeah, let's use those bikes.

236

They look better than mine.

237

So it was it was a time when you

could do that because you hadn't invested.

238

Yeah, it might have sponsors that were so,

239

so heavily invested in the sport.

240

We have the flexibility

to experiment a bit.

241

So it was a nice time.

242

So when you won the Olympics in 1992,

243

you did the four kilometer

individual pursuit.

244

do you remember what your time was

and what size

245

your front chainring was,

or what gear that you were using?

246

No, I can only just about remember

that you turned left and it was 16 laps.

247

the I get asked that kind of stuff a lot.

248

I'm the technical details

and I'm afraid I can't.

249

I'm,

250

I mean, you want to try

251

writing an autobiography

when you have no memory and don't look.

252

Don't look backwards.

253

And I feel a bit uncomfortable sometimes,

but I.

254

I've just got used to the fact

that I just lose interest in

255

what happened because I'm interested in

what's fascinating and what's next.

256

And it's it feels like a million years

ago, the Olympic Games.

257

I mean, it did a lot.

258

It opened up a lot of opportunities,

allowed me to do things today

259

in government because I got my foot in the

door when other people don't.

260

but it

was a it was a wonderful experience.

261

And then I just want to turn the page and

watch the next thing and the next thing

262

the Olympics.

263

Then,

I mean, I can remember so for so long ago,

264

the digital clock at the side of the track

was one where you painted

265

the numbers on and little things

flipped over to change it.

266

You know, that was that long ago.

267

It was in color. They

268

I can fill in there

because I spent so much time with Chris

269

as a room mate at in the team

270

between the pre round and the final

he went to the movies to relax.

271

He liked the two hours in the darkness

and watch the movie.

272

I can't name the movie.

273

But you went to the movies and

in the final he was up against Colinelli.

274

The both were going out

like rockets on world record speed.

275

And every lap, every kilometer.

276

Chris looked over.

277

He's at my speed, he's my speed.

278

He's going to blow, he's

going to blow, he's going to blow.

279

He's going to blow.

280

And in the end, Colinelli did like what

one lap or two laps to go.

281

He actually lost

I think hopefully up to you.

282

But until then you were like face

to face, head to head.

283

And you went okay, I can hold this speed.

284

There's no way in hell

he can hold the speed.

285

You were just fully trusting

286

that Colinelli on the other side

is gonna blow up in the end.

287

And, actually, it did happen like that.

288

I remember it

like yesterday when you taught me.

289

Yeah, that one was,

that was 96, with Colinelli And he just.

290

He'd already decided I'm going to go out.

291

Really quick and see if I can scare him,

and that I think that's the beauty of the

292

time trials.

293

And both of you, particularly you, Bobby,

are really familiar

294

with that is it's most of it is about you.

295

It's not about the other people

that are in the race.

296

Most of it's about you and looking inwards

and working out.

297

How fast am I going? How far is it to go?

298

Can I keep this up?

299

And if the answer's yes,

you're not going hard enough.

300

If the answer's no, it's already too late.

301

The answer you're looking for is maybe

all the time, but all of that is internal.

302

and so you just got to trust

303

in those events when you can get

wrapped up in trying to match

304

somebody else on a track

for the first 2 or 3 minutes.

305

You ready to just think about yourself,

306

and then you can start

to look at the other person, because I,

307

I learned it

very early on with the psychologist who,

308

who told me, doesn't matter

how much money is involved,

309

it doesn't matter

how many people are watching.

310

Whatever the size of the prize,

311

you can only do

what the best that you can,

312

and then cross the line and

look at the board and see what it got you.

313

And it sounds very simplistic,

but it's a great way to treat life really,

314

it is just okay,

I'll just be the best that I can.

315

I, I when I've crossed the line,

I'll see what it gets me.

316

And I use that to this day in jobs

that I do now.

317

That's all you can do.

318

Well, we are going a little

319

bit back because, you know,

I was a time trial guy.

320

I was teammates with you,

and I was trying to pick your brain and,

321

this is my memory of the conversation

322

because I asked you about pacing, pacing,

a time trial.

323

What is your technique on pacing?

324

Because, you know,

especially later in my career

325

and then coaching,

you know, at some of these teams,

326

we we always thought of,

you know, negative splits and, you know,

327

going over your threshold on the climbs

and then recovering on the descents.

328

But one thing that you said to me,

and I hope it is it,

329

you remember it and I'm remember it,

remember it correctly.

330

You were like, I go 400W the whole time.

331

And I'm like, wait, Chris,

there's a climb in this one.

332

He's like, yeah, I go 400 up the climb

333

and then I go 400 on the false flat,

and then I go 400 on the descent.

334

I'm basically stable power.

335

is that true?

336

How did you pace your time trials?

337

Because you were such an ace at it,

especially in the prologs.

338

I think there's some paraphrasing

339

in there because,

340

the, the whole Watts thing was a language

that came along when we were kids,

341

when we were, doing this,

and we were suddenly able

342

to measure effort,

we could actually see a number for effort.

343

And it was a great tool.

344

But a lot of people became a slave to it,

and it worked against you.

345

So for everything, for training,

you understood your own performance

346

and you could measure it

and you could look at,

347

a thing that told you what the number was

for that and that helped you

348

go a little bit more on a little bit less

than.

349

The important thing

was to understand what that felt like.

350

And then when it came to race day,

it was about what it felt like,

351

and the conversation that we had

352

was about making this about your effort

and not about the terrain.

353

there's some nuances.

354

So, you know,

355

if you know, you've got massive descents,

then you can go slightly into the red.

356

And because you're going

to have to freewheel on the descent.

357

So understanding

the course was a big part of it,

358

but ultimately

it was all about being on your limit

359

all the time and not going over it

because you feel

360

you should be going quicker up this climb

or whatever, not responding to that

361

emotional element, but sticking

with understanding what that felt like.

362

Fun to watch and sticking to that

and making sure that you

363

you didn't overextend

because you'd pay a price later.

364

And that the wonderful thing

and the horrible thing about a time trial

365

is you don't get to recover your precious

supposedly on the pedals all of the time.

366

And so if you go into the read too early

367

and too early is

before the last two minutes, then

368

the cost of recovery is so high

you can't do it.

369

And it takes tremendous, mental

370

discipline

and self-confidence to know that

371

I can't go any hard in this,

372

because if I do, then

I'm going to kill it.

373

And, I probably that was what I was

374

rather crudely trying to express.

375

It's a, it's a, it's a mesh, isn't it?

376

Between being a science and an artful.

377

Hey, Chris.

378

one question like,

I think I always wanted to ask,

379

already back in the days,

380

what did you like

better, winning the Olympics

381

with the world record

or catching the world champion?

382

what was the name of the French rider?

383

Luc LeBlanc, catching Luc LeBlanc at the

tour de France prologue for a minute.

384

In, what, 5.5km, passing the bloody word

champion on the finishing straight.

385

What was the better

feeling? What? What do you think?

386

I think, I think the tour de

387

France is the biggest, I mean, it's

actually been asked that before.

388

What's.

389

World hour record, tour de France prologue

or Olympic Games.

390

and I've over 20 odd years.

391

I've dodged the question

because the three things were really

392

the first one was unemployed carpenter,

393

wife, two kids, absolutely no money.

394

this is your this is your 15 minutes.

395

This is it.

It either works or it doesn't.

396

And so that opened up all the other

possibilities and an Olympic gold medal.

397

You know, you can go into

398

you go into the outback, into the wilds

or jungle and say, Olympics.

399

And people go, oh, yeah,

I know what that is.

400

And so Olympics are always special.

401

It transcends each individual sport.

402

But then

403

in our sport at the time,

because there was no world time

404

trial championships, the tour de France

was the unofficial world time trial.

405

The prologue was the unofficial world

time trial championships to the world.

406

And that was that was the big deal.

407

and I went to that year, 1994,

408

everybody went for a three week race.

409

I went for seven minutes, and everything

had been predicated on seven minutes.

410

I'd like training and the warm up

and then the pre pre review of the course

411

beforehand to look at the bends and where

every pothole and manhole cover was.

412

and that was just

413

you know,

that was the entry into the pro world.

414

and of course, it's the only stage

where you get the yellow jersey as well,

415

which we hadn't had since

Tommy Simpson. I don't think.

416

so that I mean, and to catch Luc LeBlanc

417

after him saying the year

before that, half the peloton

418

could beat the hour record

now, that was quite amusing,

419

but that that they were the days when,

he just got his bike time trial bike

420

and seen it for the first time

on the morning of the time trial

421

and started to adjust it with allen keys

and thing, and it was so rudimentary,

422

remarkable, really.

423

And then I'd come along as,

somebody who'd thought

424

about it, rehashed it, fettled it,

425

and, that approach to a prologue

had not been seen before.

426

It was something you just did

and got out of the way.

427

But this is a really valuable thing

in the sport.

428

You know, to be able to for a team

429

to be able to take a yellow jersey on day

one is your insurance policy.

430

and I'd seen that, that value and I'm not

431

I suppose it had an impact on

everything that came after.

432

And then the record, I think the 1 in 96

433

of the three things I had done

that was physically the best I ever was,

434

and we even got the lowest pressure

record day,

435

the lowest pressure on record

in Manchester for the day of that.

436

And it was absolutely perfect.

437

You couldn't have changed anything else,

438

and it's probably the only performance

where

439

I look back and think there was nothing.

440

I would have changed everything.

441

You can find something

you'd have done differently.

442

So I find it hard to split

those three things, to be honest.

443

But yeah,

sticking it to Luc Leblanc was quite nice.

444

And, you know, my, I was

445

just kind of really getting into cycling

and dreaming about the tour de France.

446

And I remember watching that and,

447

you know, you beat my hero

Miguel Indurain by 15 seconds.

448

And I remember Phil Liggett,

you know, commentating.

449

And you just were like, just flying.

450

But I know we don't want to go

too much into the weeds here

451

because this was so long ago.

452

But I have to ask

because you mentioned the warm up.

453

Do you remember your warm up protocol

for that day?

454

Yeah, 15 minutes,

455

15 minutes, two short efforts

and then stop.

456

And I think,

457

I think it was the same thing.

458

It was, it's very hard to not

459

get on the turbo trainer

or the rollers and do something

460

because everybody's really nervous

and just wants to do something.

461

And the hardest bit is to wait.

462

And that warm up finished ten minutes

before the start and knock further away.

463

And I'd already done the signing

on. I'd already done the numbers.

464

I knew exactly how long it would

take me to get to the start.

465

Really just thought everything through.

466

and it had been practiced.

467

You know, I've been in practice

for for several years,

468

and I knew it worked

and there was no need to deviate from it.

469

yeah.

470

It's quite hard

when those times of stress to,

471

to stick to what, you know, works.

472

I remember two things,

and I used them for my entire life.

473

Chris was the first man who ever told me

with his British Liverpool accent,

474

hey, yeah, it's always better to be

at the giving

475

end of pain than to be

at the receiving end of the pain.

476

I always remember my dad

and I thought it was not

477

control last, but you've actually got

only you've got five kids,

478

so think of me as well.

479

Do six, six Chris yeah, yeah, I'm chasing

you hard, my friend.

480

I got six as well.

481

It's 12 kids in between us. The baby.

482

Oh my God, if I had two kids,

I would shoot myself I remember.

483

that one, that every year,

when you had another kid I just laughed.

484

Yeah. okay. Do you didn't.

485

That wasn't the police, I remember.

486

Oh, yeah.

487

The other thing I remember from Chris is

488

the morning before time trial or the week

before the tour de France.

489

You cannot ride yourself

into shape anymore, but you can

490

very well rideyourself into the ground.

491

And I'll always try to remember that.

492

I remember do I did I learned that one

the hard way.

493

I think we all did.

We tried to force form.

494

I'll just do some more.

495

with a week to go.

496

It's just don't just don't.

497

The only thing you can do is damage.

498

just wait, wait, wait, wait.

499

We just touched on it. Really?

500

Waiting is the hardest thing, isn't it?

501

It's just. It's always the hardest thing.

502

You want to do something to try

and make the result you want.

503

Because you've got to wait.

504

it's hard to do nothing, particularly

for highly motivated people.

505

You hit that nail on the head

because I remember,

506

it may have been the Midi Libre

507

we were doing a time trial and, like,

508

like 15, 20 minutes before

509

I go in to, you know, put on my skin suit

and you're just there, like,

510

reading a book, like not doing anything,

just reading a book.

511

And I'm like, man, Chris.

512

Like, so do you have a start time

in like 20 minutes?

513

And you're like, yeah, I do.

514

So like you, you mastered that relaxation

before a prologue

515

or a time trial

that that I don't think, I, I ever did.

516

I mastered the bluffing.

517

If you'd looked at the book, I'd have seen

I'd read the same page three times.

518

And if you looked at the heart

rate monitor, it was about 130.

519

So I just after I mastered the cool look,

I think that was the thing

520

inside.

521

It was just go check, check, check check.

522

But I, I,

523

I remember, you know, you said that,

you know, you concentrated

524

on these short efforts and whatnot,

525

you and Lance Armstrong,

526

and I think it was Jalabert

were just, like, tag teaming each other.

527

And you, I don't

528

I think Jalabert wound up winning,

but you were like second or third.

529

You know, Paris-Nice is a very hard stage

race.

530

Did you change anything specifically

in your training that year to allow you

531

to be able to stomp on everybody

but those other two guys?

532

I had a couple of years

until when I it just fell right.

533

and form was good.

534

So that one was that 96

535

was that 96, 96, 95 or 96?

536

The 96?

537

I was in good shape.

538

I was in good shape that year.

539

And and I was discovering what I was

capable of.

540

But, I mean, we got caught up in the

whole the, the drugs thing around us.

541

and it was really hard to know

542

to predict what comes next

and whether you.

543

But that was just a moment where,

oh my God, I seem to be able to win stuff.

544

Great.

545

Go for it.

546

And it was, it was it was wonderful.

547

I think it was the mid labor actually.

I think it was.

548

I don't remember that.

549

It was it was a great experience.

550

So, Chris, you retired

551

relatively early at 32 or 33 right.

552

Yeah.

553

So where did life take you from there

554

after this beautiful, successful career?

555

Married?

Not a carpenter anymore. Six kids.

556

Where did your life go after that? Not.

557

Not where you'd expect,

I think, I was made up to stop.

558

I was it was great.

559

And I was really happy to stop.

560

And it's probably not

many people get to stop on.

561

They're on their own terms.

562

and I just had enough. In 2000.

563

so the hour record, the athletes hour

record was the last thing I ever did.

564

and it was really exciting.

565

I thought I'll retire.

566

And that lasted about three weeks

until I got bored of that.

567

And I wrote for,

568

I wrote for a scuba diving magazine

because I was really interested in that.

569

And I went round the world

reviewing training courses and cave dive

570

in and all sorts of stuff, and that was

that was good fun.

571

Didn't make any money, but it was great.

572

and I got an email from

573

a really badly written email

from a guy called Alan Ingarfield

574

who was a triathlete,

and I was going to push delete.

575

And Sally,

my wife said, now go on, go meet him.

576

And this guy wanted to start a bike

company.

577

and, Sally said, no go and meet him.

578

It's only over in Liverpool,

so not far from me so i thought ok.

579

And I go and meet him.

580

And then that ended up being

581

Boardman Bikes Limited, which to this day

sells about 50,000 bikes.

582

Yeah.

583

So the.

584

So that was good.

585

so that, that occupied quite a few years.

586

And that was just at the time

when cycling was getting on the up,

587

really become invisible.

588

2007 by the time we got the company going,

589

and then we had the tour de France

in the UK, and it was a great time.

590

But I’d also got involved

in advocating for cycling

591

for just getting to school

and going to work.

592

And I realized, my God, this machine

that I've been using as a child

593

and go racing, it's really good

and you can do loads with it.

594

and it's low carbon and all

595

the other things, every problem

that we were facing as a society,

596

this machine actually helped us fix it.

597

This is great.

598

So I got involved in advocating for it,

599

and then I got closer and closer

to the politics of it.

600

And then there's,

a regional politician, called,

601

Andy Burnham

in the whole Greater Manchester area.

602

And he said, come and come and work for me

603

and implement

that for this whole city region.

604

And I did that for 4 or 5 years.

605

we produced this plan

606

so people could drive less

if they wanted to and get to schools.

607

And it was a it was a fantastic job.

608

So it's 1.5 billion pounds,

ten year plan.

609

And then as the governments changed,

610

I'm going through quite a lot of time

er really quickly,

611

as the governments changed, they went,

well, you couldn't do that for England.

612

So I said, okay,

I won't do that for England.

613

And that's pretty much what I'm doing now.

614

So were overseeing two and a half,

3.5 billion pounds worth of investment

615

in infrastructure to try and get close

616

to what you've got in Germany.

617

and, that's pretty much where I am now.

618

it's been fascinating

in the last few years with the changes

619

in government

we've had have been interesting.

620

but yeah, I've got really exciting

projects, but far enough away.

621

Yeah, yeah, that's the only word we’re

allowed to use at the moment.

622

So tell me a little bit more about,

you know, infrastructure.

623

Right.

624

Because in the US we have very,

very little of that.

625

Like,

you know, some most of the roads down here

626

in South Carolina that I ride

on, we don't even have a shoulder.

627

Yeah.

628

So are you talking like,

you know, from from town to town

629

or like, you know, specific to each city?

630

what what actually is the definition

631

of infrastructure

for cyclists that you're talking about?

632

You've got some good stuff, actually.

633

You've got, Portland is sensational,

so you've got it in pockets.

634

So the same in the UK where you got

Cambridge and you've got Oxford

635

and you've got some places

where they've got 30% of

636

journeys are made by bike,

but that's unusual.

637

It's not normal and we think really small.

638

So we're really parochial.

639

We don't we don't look over there

we go. That's great.

640

We should do that thing.

641

We just think about what we do

and we drive cars here.

642

And it's really hard to unpack.

643

But the the secret is not to talk

about cycling and walking.

644

The secret is to talk about,

645

do you want your kids to be able

to get to school independently?

646

Yes, I do want that thing.

647

Okay.

648

what would you need?

649

Well, they'd have to be safe.

650

Okay, well, describe to me

what that looks like.

651

And then you have to take a whole

all the people of a region

652

through a journey of going,

okay, should we do that then?

653

Yeah, let's do that.

654

And it's, you know, I've just truncated

probably what is a three year

655

journey

to get people to see things differently.

656

But the outcome, everybody agrees.

657

Yeah.

658

Kids with, independence

659

and parents who don't have to own

three cars in a household,

660

they could just have two

or maybe one, to save money

661

and spend it on something else.

662

So the secret to getting more cycling

is to not talk about cycling,

663

to talk about all the things

that you care about, saving money and,

664

that we we get to do all

the other good stuff, like decarbonization

665

and all the things that are going

to kill the species, as well.

666

So it's very it's been fascinating.

667

It's essentially it's

a, it's a job in psychology.

668

It's actually not to do with tarmac

and infrastructure.

669

It's to do with human psychology.

670

And how do you get people

to want to change?

671

Excuse me, want to change, which is

672

which is quite challenging.

673

and I think that's

what keeps me interested in it.

674

It's about, it's about people

getting out of their own way.

675

But ultimately, Bobby,

what people need is to feel safe.

676

If they don't feel safe, we won't change.

677

just as importantly, if it's not easy,

I won't change because we're.

678

That's how we're built,

so it's not as easy.

679

was what I'm doing now. I'm not doing it.

680

So we have to make it easy, and we have to

make it safe or nothing changes.

681

So maybe give us an example

of where you go.

682

Oh, my God, that was so easy.

683

It worked. Was in a day or the other way.

684

Like pulling you here for like three years

and things wouldn't work.

685

Do you got an example

for that as well? Paris,

686

I think.

687

Paris. Is it?

688

So, Anne Hidalgo said, I'm

essentially going to pedestrianise Paris.

689

and she got death threats.

690

and it was horrific.

691

And she nearly lost her job,

within between one election and the next.

692

So 3 or 4 years.

693

she was then getting bouquets

694

of flowers from the same people.

695

So the taxi drivers were going,

are you going to kill our trade?

696

You're stopping us driving where we want

to go and using all of these shortcuts.

697

and they got incensed for fear

of losing their livelihoods.

698

And then when they went, oh, actually,

when people are driving cars everywhere,

699

they need taxis every day to go,

this is really good for us.

700

and so but she had to do the first bit.

701

and now

702

Paris is now one of the exemplars

for the world, not just because

703

of what they've done,

but how quickly they did it

704

in the space of 3 or 4 years,

705

they've actually made it

a really nice place to be.

706

Yeah.

707

When when we were riding bikes,

you probably remember that.

708

I can't remember the name of them.

709

The two roads that run down either

side of the same river.

710

they were just expressways for traffic.

711

And she went.

712

Actually,

that's a really nice place for people.

713

Why don't we let people

go there and stop the traffic?

714

And that was like,

oh my God, you can't do that.

715

And now you'd have a much bigger fight

if you tried to put it back.

716

And there are places

717

where people ride bikes and sit in cafes

and it's, you know, it's great.

718

And that same story

is played out in Bolton or,

719

I don't know, in, in Oxfordshire

or in other places

720

in, in the country because it's just

about human beings being scared of change.

721

But I think Paris is probably

one of the best examples.

722

and hopefully we're going to get a chance

to talk about that this summer.

723

In fact, I will on the, on the BBC.

724

Just go look at what they did.

725

We could have that as well.

726

Wow. Interesting.

727

Chris,

728

to switch gears again.

729

You know, we got the tour de France

coming up with the Olympics

730

right after that.

731

do you pay much attention

to the current world

732

of cycling

now that you're, you know, in politics?

733

I know you said

before we started recording

734

that you're riding your bike a lot,

but I'm just wondering,

735

you know, do

you do you pay attention to it?

736

What do you think of the,

the tour de France this year?

737

I, I pay attention to it intensely when

I'm about to have to go and work on it.

738

So the,

the tour de France, I had to give up,

739

year before

740

last, after 20 years,

which is a real wrench because I just,

741

I just couldn't fit everything in,

because I'm also the chairman of Sport

742

England, which, which governed

all grassroots sport in England.

743

I forgot that one.

744

So I've got a couple of jobs.

745

so I had to give something up.

746

So the tour de France had to go,

but I kept hold of the BBC work

747

for the Olympics, and world

championships, which I just really like.

748

It's great.

749

So I often have to cram really hard

750

just coming into an event

to get back up to speed.

751

I think.

752

I think what really helps, though, is the.

753

The, how we ride a race doesn't change.

754

So the technology changes

and the names change,

755

but how people are interacting,

that is a constant about human beings.

756

So I can fall back on that little

a little bit.

757

But, I've been watching

I've been watching this year.

758

I mean, the current crop and I do,

759

I do tune in to the racing

and I'll be watching all of the tour.

760

I'm actually

761

going to ride to Paris this year,

which I think I said

762

this year to do with the job.

763

So I'm going to ride from, Manchester

to Paris for 16 days

764

and watch the highlights program

for the tour in the evenings.

765

But it's, we've got a good crop now.

766

I mean, Pogacar’s obviously.

767

You know, the man.

768

and isn't it great that he seems to be

a really nice bloke as well?

769

I think that was,

you know, he's really nice.

770

and when he does interviews,

you think, oh, this this guy

771

is actually seems to be enjoying himself

rather than it being, like, stressed.

772

And it's like a war.

773

He's like he's he's having a bit.

774

It probably pisses

everybody else off of that.

775

But, there's some people there

that can challenge him.

776

But there's been so much injury

this year as well.

777

You've

probably got about half a dozen people

778

and you're not quite sure what form

they're going to be in, but but,

779

to fall back on that, from our experience,

the period

780

between the Giro d’Italia and the tour,

it's very difficult to negotiate.

781

Right?

782

It's too long to keep pushing.

783

It's too short to break down and rebuild.

784

Right.

785

So you've got to be smart

with your training and efforts.

786

I believe in between dead right?

787

Yeah.

788

But don't you

789

also like the fact that they've broken

the mold in the last few years?

790

So you know the young riders jersey.

791

It's almost redundant now isn't it, where

you've got a crop of riders who said,

792

yeah, I'm really interested

now I'll just go for the next one.

793

I'm sorry. They've left it behind.

794

I, I love that I, you go.

795

Yeah, we just do these one

major tours in a year.

796

No, I quite fancy

riding the classics, actually.

797

I'm going to do that as well.

798

so I like the fact

that people are challenging the norm.

799

the, I mean, the Giro

800

tour de France one,

that being said, is difficult

801

because a month in a month

and then that block in the middle,

802

you haven't got time to train

and come back.

803

You can't keep training,

you can't peak for three months.

804

So what do you do?

805

but I knew people thinking about it

in a different way.

806

I guess we'll find out in, next week

or other in about two weeks.

807

Whether Pogacar’s just like

I'm actually feeling even better.

808

And everyone's going. Oh, God.

809

Oh, you know We we couldn't deal with it

in the first place, and it's even better.

810

But I think Vingegaard

coming back from injury,

811

he's a, you know, it was a real unknown

there, he’s beat him for two years.

812

I think he's

only had about 14 days of racing.

813

So that's a real unknown,

814

good team around him and Roglic as well.

815

I mean he's got to be moving

towards his last chance.

816

He's in really good shape.

817

So there's there's lots of potential

for an upset

818

and that's why we like watching

it isn't it.

819

You know you've got this guy who’s

the favourite.

820

But he's not going to have it

all his own way.

821

Yeah I mean

822

it's like waiting for Christmas morning,

you know, here

823

we are a couple days from the start,

and Jens is going to be hanging his

824

hanging his knees off the back

of a motorcycle for the first time.

825

Oh, you do that job again. It's.

826

Yep. The first nine days

until the first rest day.

827

Yep yep yep.

828

Which I mean, honestly,

it adds such a cool element to the sport.

829

And you know, we were all on French

teams and back then it always seem

830

like we do this because that's

what we've done in the past.

831

And it got

832

I was frustrated and you know,

I think you were as well

833

that there wasn't that innovation,

but you brought in, you know, you

834

training with power,

you brought in aerodynamics,

835

you brought in a different position

with the Superman position.

836

You know, you did an amazing thing

when the sport really wasn't

837

quite ready for it.

838

So I'm curious to hear

839

with all the technical innovations

in the sport right now,

840

which are the ones that you look at and

say, wow, I wish I would have had that.

841

a wind tunnel.

842

I think I forgot that, actually, I built

a wind tunnel in the middle there as well.

843

I forgot to add that in,

but I think a wind tunnel.

844

You built a wind tunnel?

845

Yeah. Built a wind tunnel?

846

Yeah,

it was pretty cool, if I say so myself.

847

because you have a way to experiment.

848

And the horrible thing about wind tunnels

is they don't tell you why.

849

They just go better or worse.

850

And then you go, whoa,

what happened there?

851

But you've got to work it out

for yourself.

852

And you go back for another experiment.

Another one.

853

But I learned,

so I had my first experience, as you

854

mentioned, back in the winter of 91.

855

And it was, it was a wind tunnel

that they used to test trucks and things.

856

So it was like weighing

pigs on bathroom scales.

857

That was really crude.

858

But everything we were doing

that was so crude, it was enough to go by

859

God, look at the difference.

860

If you do this

and I had remembered that experience.

861

So, when I worked with the British team,

862

the British

Olympic team, I set up the R&D program.

863

Something else I forgot actually,

on the journey, the R&D program,

864

we were spending up to a week,

a month in wind tunnels,

865

just finding out new stuff.

866

And we brought new people in with,

867

different knowledge

who knew absolutely nothing about cycling.

868

And that's why they were amazing.

869

Because they went would you use.

870

well,

how wide are your handlebars, 42cm. Why?

871

because that's

the width of your shoulders.

872

Because you don't realize how constrained

you are by history. And.

873

Whoa.

874

Would you use 38 centimeter handlebars

and you go,

875

yeah, yeah, yeah, I think we do that.

876

And you go, how about 22cm?

877

No, we couldn't do that. Why not?

878

I don't know.

879

And so I went on, we brought together

these people who just thought

880

completely different.

881

and they brought

in, we can talk about it now.

882

it went okay.

You've got cylindrical arms.

883

You can't change the cylinder.

884

We'll just put some drip

lines down the side of it.

885

What do you mean? Yeah,

it's pretty standard.

886

We've been doing that since biplanes.

887

okay.

888

Because we looked outside the box,

somebody else.

889

And then we dropped

the drag of Olympic athletes

890

by an average of 11%, I think.

891

And certain people going from

first to first, it was like, amazing.

892

And that hasn't stopped.

893

It's taken over a decade

for everybody to catch up, but the vehicle

894

allows you to do it as a wind tunnel,

a way to understand better or worse.

895

And I think the big change that I can see

across the peloton

896

now is people have finally cottoned on to

897

aerodynamics.

898

It's like nearly everything,

because if you do your job, Bobby

899

and people who coach

and if you get a really good athlete

900

and then you coach them really well,

901

you'll improve their performance by 1%,

whereas you put them in a wind tunnel,

902

an efficiency and go, actually,

I'm going to 3%, 4%.

903

and that unlocked

so much wholly different way of thinking.

904

And now I'm watching the kids with their

handlebars and then their brake levers

905

turn down a little bit and thinking,

but look how long it took to get there.

906

And you mentioned me being an innovator.

907

Well, I wasn't good enough to drive it

all the way through.

908

If you if I'd been a tour de France winner

or if I've been a Greg LeMond,

909

then all of that stuff

would have proliferated really quickly.

910

Because that's what we do.

911

We follow the leader.

912

So it's taken. It's taken quite a while.

913

It's been great

to be involved in it, though.

914

It's quite, quite interesting.

915

You'd have absolutely

916

loved it again in the winter

and when no one had ever done it before

917

and just finding stuff

all the time, it was, it was great.

918

It was quite a

long answer that sorry about.

919

It it was

920

festering like everything you said so far.

921

Hey, Chris, if I understood, right,

you also,

922

head of sport England,

which is a big title.

923

And you talked about

the grassroot sports.

924

How do we get in all countries

of the world?

925

Basically,

how do we get more kids into sport or into

926

not only soccer or football,

927

whatever we call it in Grand Bretagne,

or in the US, on Germany.

928

How do we get more kids

motivated to do sports?

929

Well,

the reason I took that particular job.

930

So we, so it takes lottery

funding and distributes it.

931

So so this business gives out about 320

million a year, but only about 100

932

million is on sport and 200 million

is really about activity and health.

933

And what they worked out before

I became chair,

934

what they worked out was if you do this

really nice sports center

935

and it's really great,

and all the people over there

936

don't have a boss or they don't access it,

or people like me don't go there,

937

then it doesn't matter how shiny is,

no one's using it so that they change

938

the strategy to go to the local community

and go, what are you already doing?

939

Would you like to do more of it?

940

What do you like? What do you need?

941

And so we went down.

942

We met people where they were at, if you

like, and and asked them what they needed.

943

And we've got things like with, Muslim

cycling groups in Birmingham

944

or back of a gym and somewhere else,

the sorry, back of a garage.

945

We set up a gym

for wrestling for a particular group that,

946

that that becomes their hope

and it gets more and more.

947

I think one of the things that cycling

has got

948

just recently, that's really good is, BMX

949

and I watched

950

the, the imagery from the last Olympics

and I watched,

951

so we had one of the medallists, Kai

White and one it’s one the London clubs.

952

And then behind him was kids

who'd come to play,

953

and then their parents

had come along as well,

954

because that's where we have a cup of tea

and a chat and,

955

and you could see that

people were go into this place for,

956

to play, to do a few tricks, to

maybe have a go at a competition

957

to actually get serious about it, for it

to be my sport.

958

And the whole spectrum

was there in one club,

959

and that's what Sport England does.

960

We actually look for things like that

that are much more than the sport,

961

the sport, just the glue that holds

everything else together.

962

and it, it's, it's

just another fascinating

963

bit of what we can do in cycling

can play a big part in that really.

964

So sporting the bonds a lot of

965

cycling related

966

stuff because it reaches a lot of people.

967

But I think

ultimately you've got to make it fun

968

or why would I?

969

That's that's one of the things

970

that, you know,

when I see young riders coming up

971

and they're all so serious

because they all have all this data

972

at their fingertips, you know, they know

there's so much more educated and

973

and have so much more knowledge

than we had coming in.

974

But that's that's

the one thing that the one word that I use

975

a lot is you can do all that stuff

as long as you have fun.

976

And you mentioned it early, today.

977

Pogacar, you know,

he looks like he's having fun.

978

So like, you know, don't be that robot.

979

Be that kid that that has fun

and really enjoys it.

980

But I have to say, Chris, you know,

I had a couple of years working for

981

Sky back in the day,

and if I was up in the belly of the beast

982

up there in Manchester and,

you know, you walk through, it was like,

983

oh my gosh, I just saw a unicorn.

984

And then we've just had

the last 45 minutes with you face to face.

985

So I just want to say

thank you so much for coming on.

986

It was great to catch up

and wish you all the best with everything

987

that you're doing, and just have a nice,

safe ride down to to Paris.

988

You said it's going to

take you 16 days to do that

989

and now we'll do an eight.

990

The started on the 16th,

but I'm going to do it in eight days.

991

So I'll do some more training

around the Cairngorms.

992

First.

993

All right.

994

Well thank you so much

for coming on the odd tandem today.

995

And thank you for everything

that you've done for the sport and you're

996

continuing to do in your,

your country for cycling safety.

997

Cheers, fellas.

998

That's everything for this week.

999

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00:50:53,050 --> 00:50:57,137

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