To celebrate Family Business Week we are re-releasing some of our favourite interviews with family businesses here in the UK.

In today's episode we revisit the conversation that I had with Josie Morris MBE from WoolCool. We talk about their journey to becoming a Certified B-Corp and Josie's experience of being awarded the MBE.

About Family Business Week

Family Business Week is a week long celebration of family businesses as a force for good

The pandemic has once again highlighted the vital role that businesses play in supporting their local communities, and it is these community-focused values that are at the heart of family businesses. Rooted in their local communities, family businesses provide a long-term, sustainable model which views business as a force for good. 

Family Business Week 2021 is a week-long celebration of family businesses, particularly in relation to supporting local communities across all parts of the UK, and providing a platform to highlight the role of business as a force for good. 

Led by the Institute for Family Business (IFB), the voice of the UK’s family business sector.

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Hello everyone.

And welcome to this special episode of the family business podcast to coincide with

family business week, which is being held from the 22nd to the 26th of November.

We are releasing some of our more popular interviews with UK based family business.

And encouraging everybody.

Who's listening to get involved on social media in particular, on Twitter

to celebrate and showcase your family business, or to highlight the family

businesses that you are working.

As I say the best way to do that is via Twitter.

And the Twitter handle to follow is at family biz week.

And you can also follow the IFB on there as well, which is at IFB underscore UK.

And while you're there, you may as well give the podcast to follow as well.

So that's at fam biz podcast.

There are a number of ways in which you can join in the celebrations.

This.

And you can find out lots more information at the family business week website,

which is family business week.co.uk.

Now each day, this week, I will be rereleasing some of the more

popular interviews for you to enjoy.

From the archive.

So you may not have heard them already, and hoping that you'll get some.

New and interesting insights from those historic interviews, as well as revisiting

some of the more recent ones as well.

Today's interview is with Josee Morris from call, and we talk about war

call's journey to becoming a certified B Corp organization here in the UK.

And given that the idea of family business week is to celebrate family businesses

and how they can be a force for good.

Um, it's a great way to start the week by introducing the interview

with Josie as she shares their experiences of the B-Corp pro.

In addition, we talked to Josie about what it's like to receive an email from

the queen as she was, uh, awarded an MBE.

And, um, I can't imagine what that would be like.

I can't imagine I'm ever going to find out either, but it was

great to hear Josie's experience.

So if you haven't heard the interview already, I really hope you enjoy

it and can take a lot away from it.

Keep an eye on your.

Podcast player of choice this week, because we will be revisiting some

of the more popular interviews with family businesses throughout the week.

And please do get involved on social media.

All right, I'll pass you over to the interview with Josee hope you enjoy.

Well, I am delighted to welcome my guest onto the show.

This week.

We are speaking with Josee Morris, M B E, and we are going to get into the MBE

element of that, , a little later on in the show, but firstly, Josie, welcome to

hello.

Thank you for having me.

It's a pleasure to

be.

And we are going to be talking about, , your family business, which is will-call

and the B Corp process that, , you helped take the business through.

But before we get into that, if you could give our audience an overview of who you

are, how you got involved in your family business, a bit about the business, , and

give them, a feel for who you are.

So I think, um, so I'm Josie.

I am now MD of vocal and, um, the business actually was started by my mum.

So I've had so many business link, um, back in, in 2009.

Um, she is passionate consultant by and, and designer by trade.

Um, and the idea came from a project she was working on with the national

trust back in 2000 early, 2000.

And basically very simply and without going on too much, um,

the, the concept is insulated packaging, but you cheap as well.

So an alternative to polystyrene.

So for shipment of food and pharmaceutical products.

So, you know, if you, if you're receiving meat in the post, for

example, um, it needs to be child.

And so the installation is, um, made a sheets well, rather than a polystyrene.

So, uh, sustainability-wise, it's, it's got much better credential.

Yeah.

And this series of the show, we are focusing on sustainability and

we wanted to hear from different businesses, different perspectives

on how you've undertaken, um, the journey to, uh, what you're doing on

the sustainability side of things.

And I think it's important if we can just to cover the, your journey into.

The business cause you didn't, you weren't there from day one, I don't think.

And you joined a little bit later on and just to explain the background

behind that, if that's okay.

Yeah.

And I mean, I guess any, any family business, you know, anyone in the

family business, so our single family business will know, well, can I ask

this when I say that you probably in the business for the whole of your

life, um, in many ways, um, and I'm sure everyone's got that kind of, yeah.

Child job where they stopped and did something for their family business.

I don't know whether it's a summer job or whatever, but, um, certainly

with call, um, I asked to be decided I'd go off to uni and not join it.

Um, initially, and I kind of had my sights on it, but I

thought I only wanted to join it.

Was, um, deemed good enough.

I didn't want to just join because, because otherwise that's not

going to work for either party.

And so I actually did classics at uni, which is not completely

away from packaging and cheap and stability, um, with the view

that I might go into journalism.

And that was, that was kind of on my radar a little bit.

Um, and then, yeah, so I went into.

Classics.

I went into sports works.

I love sports.

So it was what I thought sportswear might be of interest.

So I work for a sports company and then, um, my mom around, 2014 asked me

whether I would consider joining the business as a sales manager manager,

basically to help with the sales side.

And someone said to me, actually, a good friend of mine who who's.

Very knowledgeable about family businesses and kind of said to

me, are you joining for your mom?

Are you joining for yourself?

Which I went away and had a little think about that.

And when I could answer that, honestly.

And so I was joining for myself, but also because I wanted to take the legacy

forward, I then said, yeah, I join them.

And I made Keith who's my mom's partner interview me.

Um, so yeah, so it's, it's quite, um, a business is one of those

things it's in heaven in you.

If you've got, Like a parent or parents or whatever they did when in business.

But, um, I think it's something that I was quite conscious that I

didn't just want to join for that.

Cause it was there.

Do you know what I mean?

I want you to go off and do other things.

Yeah.

And there's often a debate I think is.

Best to, um, go off and, uh, get some experience and some new perspectives

from outside of the family business before joining the family business.

And that there are some that will be adamant that that must be

the route that everybody takes.

And there's others that will say no, don't need to do that.

You can, um, Just grow up through the business and take on different

roles in the business, almost do your apprenticeship through the business.

And I think from my experience, what I've found is that actually it's

what works for you as a family and what works for you as individuals.

And presumably you felt as if you needed to go away to.

Um, so get that experience to be able to come back and be, as you

were saying, useful to the business and do it on merit rather than just

because there was that family tie.

And I think it's a really important point on, um, why you joined.

The family business and the fact that you thought about that and, um, use

that thinking to go, actually it is for me, uh, it's not just because I

feel sort of forced into it or I feel this pressure around it is something

I want to actively contribute to.

And I think, again, that's really important thinking for anyone

that's looking to join a family business, um, to, to undertake.

I think, I think also there's no right or wrong answer.

Like you say, you know, I think I season the people who've been absolutely a

hundred percent behind the fact they're gonna join that business, the family

business, and that's what they want to do and the heart's completely in it.

So I think it's around, like you say, the individual, um, and what's right.

I think one of the kind of, I don't know whether this is a drive

or not, but, um, we, this was kind of second generation, so.

You know, I kind of think, well, in three or four, if it's see a fourth

or fifth generation, which hopefully we get to, um, then Would I go through

the same process or would I just joined because that was the thing to do.

So I think it is dependent on, and I think it depends on your relationship

with the people in the business.

My sister's joined as well, so there's other drivers there.

Um, but certainly you're right.

He is individual to everyone.

I don't, I don't think there's any right or wrong answer

to this, to this conundrum.

I think it's in your, I think it's in your own individual

opinion.

Really?

Yeah.

I agree.

So you joined, um, 2014 and you are now MD running the business.

Um, how kind of soon after joining, we use sort of rising up the ranks into,

in terms of your, your role, um, from sort of sales to, to where you are.

So,

um, I started progressing, I think, um, Keith and my mum had

me and mark to kind of take on the progression if I wanted it.

And if I kind of, because I think the other thing I kind of said that I was

nervous about if I wasn't good enough to do it, that, you know, actually

that would end up breaking it forever.

So I think, you know, particularly in the early days, Keith kind

of kept an eye cause he was the entity previously and he kept an

eye on, you know, what was I doing?

You know, it was, I was answering emails, was I, you know, doing the right thing

and, and, and forging my own way really.

Um, and then, um, we moved to a warehouse in 2015.

At that point it felt right because you were open.

Our own facility for me to be a sales director at that point, kind

of from the start from when we get a new team coming through, because

then it would start to be mine and my sister's team mark, and then just,

you know, team win votes in the time.

And then, um, we.

Um, I think it was the thing was 2016.

I think I became an MD, um, which was quite exciting.

It was a bit earlier than I thought it was going to be.

Um, but actually these kinds of things, we move so quickly as a

business at the moment that I think it just kind of naturally happened.

Um, and then you learn from that, don't you, it's a bit like the funny

thing about being an MD, I think.

When you're younger, you kind of look to end Diego, you know, what's that mean?

And when you do the job, you like, well, you just kind of learn on the job.

I mean, I think a lot of it isn't, you don't know the answer.

Do you just kind of go with gut quite often?

Yeah, I think that can sometimes feel quite intimidating

when you're asked to take on that role, as you say, you, you kind

of feeling well, what if I'm.

The right person to take this on.

It's more than just my job role at stake.

Um, but I think that's a really positive attitude to take

rather than just going well.

Yes, it does like it do it.

I, you know, I don't need to learn, I don't need to continue to develop

what I'm doing is, is quite a healthy approach to it rather than, you

know, thinking I know everything and this is the way it must be done.

You've got to respect the generations that come before

you and the experience they have.

And I think what shook me really early on was I remember being in a

meeting with my, with my mom about, um, a project we're working on,

or I don't the exact conversation, but we were talking about something

and, and I had kind of gone, well, I think we should do it this way now.

And I realized kind of after the meeting that I had been quite blunt about

that, and I realized that actually, The decision she made back in the

day was the right decision to make.

It's just, we devolved.

So, you know, and then I became very mindful of the fact that going forward

to respect the fact that decisions were made in the past were made for a

reason and the right systems, because we wouldn't be where we were at.

If those decisions weren't made.

But it also respects the fact that things move on and, you know, when you

become a certain size of business, you have to put something else in place.

So you have to change some things.

So it was just managing that emotion side of things.

And I think he's respecting that.

And I think for me to come in and think that I could do it better was arrogant.

And for me to come in and think that I know everything is also arrogant.

So I think you have to be humble and respectful of the fact that there's a

reason those people are where they are.

And they've had a lifetime of experience that you can draw upon.

So why wouldn't be yeah.

And I think you've also got to separate the fact it's your mom, it's your mom

that you're working with as well, or your parents or your sister or your brother

or whatever, um, or partner actually, in some cases, people in the plans

aren't they, so it's that whole raft of things in that conversation, you kind

of something that you can bet you really need to learn and going into a family

business, I think.

Yeah, absolutely.

And you mentioned that that was, um, pretty exciting for you.

Something else that has happened.

Recently that's pretty exciting is you've been awarded an MBE and, um, spookily we'd

arranged the interview for the show before the announcement was made about that.

But the, the award was for services to manufacturing in the environment and we're

recording a series on, sustainability.

So all I can think is the queen has been listening, um, and has, um,

sort of put, put a word in and, uh, you you've been awarded the MBA.

Incredible.

Okay.

I think that's exactly what happened.

I think she heard I was coming on here.

Well, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll do this, we'll do this and that and

tight, especially for this episode.

Absolutely.

So talk us through that experience because it's not something I don't expect.

Many of us will, will ever experience the scenario of receiving an award from,

from the queen or an MBA in particular.

And so talk us through how that happens and how you were

feeling about it all at the time.

And

so, um, my honest reaction is, I don't know how it happened.

Um, it was my reaction to it.

Um, so.

I think as you can probably hear them quite switches about itself.

Um, basically I was, I was sat at my computer few weeks ago now and,

um, I got an email through that basically said you've been nominated

and I didn't, I didn't know.

You could nominate someone for Columbia.

I thought it was just something I didn't, I don't even know how you got it.

I don't think I even thought about it, to be honest.

It never was on my radar.

Um, subsequently I found out someone outside of the business who I've

been doing some work with nominated me, which was really nice of them.

So thank you for that.

Um, but actually what happens is you get a nomination, um, it then goes through a

process, I think, where they bet and they, I don't think they ask other people about

things about you and things like that.

Um, and then I think it goes to a board that then decided, I don't know

this exact is the process, but I get that's the general overview, I guess.

Um, but I got an email, which I didn't think was real.

So I basically read it a few times, sat there at my laptop, flabbergasted.

And I was like, if it's real.

Really odd.

And if it's not real, this is me.

Um, processing it a little bit.

I'm thinking about it.

I then you have to say whether you accept it.

So I emailed back and said, here's my information.

If it's, if my wording was, if this is legit, then of

course I accept it as an honor.

Um, but if it's not, then just ignore this.

Uh, I'll get back in my box.

Um, yeah, so it's really surreal.

And then obviously, then, um, you got a phone call a couple of weeks before again,

I asked the lady if it was real enough.

And she said, yes.

And then after that obviously gets announced, but I'm really

surreal and absolute honor.

Um, I have so, so much respect for the queen.

I think she's, she's what she's gone through for the last, you

know, however many years she, 60 years now, she she's been in.

The goal winning a family business is intense at times.

And I can't imagine what she's going through.

Yeah, it's a complete honor.

So as you can probably see, I don't know any of the words that they

have other than just go a bit.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And it is an amazing, um, achievement, uh, and again, it's, it, it links, um,

in terms of the, the award to how you're operating your business or what you've

been doing with the business and, um, As I said in the introduction around

what we're going to be talking about is sort of your story and, um, the B Corp

certification that may be people in the audience who aren't hugely familiar with.

What a B Corp peers.

And I guess a good starting point would be.

So from your perspective, what does B Corp mean?

I know you don't represent B corporate, but it is a movement and

it is something that I think our audience should be more aware of.

What, what is it to you?

And then we can get into how you got started and that kind of stuff.

So, B Corp, is around.

I think that the tagline is businesses force for good.

And it's around businesses almost taking into consideration, not just

profit when it comes to business.

Now, you know, profit, isn't a dirty word.

You have to make profit for business function, especially

family business for the future.

You know, a lot of family businesses around legacy and around future,

other than kind of quick when IPO get out, um, So particularly to,

to, to build a business that, you know, profit is, is important.

Um, the bit that I think B Corp, is focused on is around looking after the

planet and your people at the same time.

So, um, whether that is, um, you know, you've measured impact.

So whether, you know, how would you incentivize your staff, um, um, you

know, watch your, you know, have you measured outcome footprint, all

those typical things, but then also delving into that little bit deeper

and saying, you know, what kind of in, in, um, in what kind of practices

are you going to do in the future?

I think one of the biggest things with eco and I always say this because it's just

true is none of them claim to be perfect.

And, and certainly we don't at all and yeah.

The way we do business, won't be good for other people.

Other people might go, no, it isn't the way I want to do business.

You know, we want to do it this way.

So it's not a be all and end all.

But for me, B cooks at me.

I see with our values of, of actually, or don't be an asshole, but at the

same time, be a, be a genuine business.

That's um, kind of looking after the.

Looking after his team.

And I think actually all, both of those things then result in

a, in a, in a good profit anyway, and possible company because you

ha you've got staff pretension.

You've got, you know, you think about legacy.

Think about future.

Your business is actually sustainable, not just in the green way, but in a,

in a, in a future view sustainability

as well.

Yeah.

And I think you touched on a couple of really important points

there is that there can often be firstly taking a step along.

The journey, particularly to something like B Corp can seem quite

intimidating, particularly if it's not something that you've done before.

And I know there's, there's a lot of tools on the B Corp website that

help, um, people to firstly, measure where they are and start that process.

But also the.

perhaps fear that, well, we're not perfect.

We're, there's a lot for us to do in order to become perfect.

Therefore it's, it's too much to consider at this stage, but I think what you're

saying there is it's doing what feels right to you and developing the business

around your values and the long-term view that family businesses tend to

take when it comes to decision-making.

And then doing the best you can to strive towards what it is you're

trying to achieve rather than thinking we need to be perfect on day one.

Yeah, exactly.

And I think, you know, any small steps towards either of those, you know, whether

it's looking after your team or looking after the environment or community around

you, any small step is a good step.

So, you know, we're not talking about changing the world tomorrow by, you

know, turning everything on its head and, and changing everything you're doing.

That's not, I don't think B Corp's goal really big.

In my opinion.

I'm not speaking on my behalf here, but from what I get for the most

incremental changes and lots of businesses doing it, um, and, and conducting

themselves in a way that's transparent.

And, and it, I guess, like I say, not just making decisions, I mean,

you sat in a boardroom and you make a decision about, you know, profitability

and it means you're going to dump those chemicals into the seat.

For example, is actually taking that decision to go no, for

the future of this business.

Number one, we're going to do that, but also for the environment, the

right thing to do is not to do that.

So it's making, it's trying to get businesses to think about actually what

they're doing and the impact that house.

And I think there's nothing wrong with that.

Um, in, in, in essence, I mean, and for me, It actually makes good business sense.

You know, it's in my heart.

So aside from the business sense is in my heart to being, to consider

other people in what I'm doing.

You know, that's always been something I've been brought up with.

That's kind of common having me from my mum and my dad.

But I think the bit that actually, if you're talking to this from a commercial

standpoint, it makes sense to think of it.

The wider world, because that's the thing that impacts you as a business.

You know what I mean?

That the external world impacts the business.

So it makes sense to think about that.

Particularly things like global weather, climate, climate

change, and things like that.

You've got to have a business for the future.

And the way to do that is to address those things that are causing

that future to be a little bit less rosy as it, as it could be.

And I think as well, I mean, you're, you're in a

position as the managing director of trying to get the balance right.

With, with all of what you do within the business.

And again, I think, um, and you mentioned this, there can often be

the misconception that adopting sort of sustainable attitudes towards

things means that you have to give up.

Profit.

It's like, they're not one in the same in the sense that, you

know, it's not a, a direct cost.

There might be cost to doing it in terms of some initial costs and some

outlays and focusing on different things.

But again, with the long-term view, if you're trying to create a

sustainable business from an economic perspective and from an environment.

Perspective, you have to have that focus on profit as well.

And I guess some of the misconceptions to try and, um, move.

So is that this is going to be damaging to the long-term sustainability

from an economic perspective.

Yeah.

And, and I think the department sustainability it's kind

of been funded around it.

It's become a bit like organic, hasn't it?

You know, the word organic used to be such a great word.

You know, it's about organic food and it became.

Um, I don't know what the word, what is it kind of, I guess it

became a bit, why do you use it for many different applications?

And I think the same happen is happening with sustainability where,

you know, sustainability in many ways, in my view is an opinion.

You know, you, it depends where you put your lens about something, you know,

electric cars or, um, you know, carbon footprint of something or whatever

it depends where you put your lens.

You know, sometimes plastic is the best option for something, even though it's

not the most sustainable end of life.

It might be the best for the car.

You might have the best carbon footprint or, you know, some of those papers,

the best option, or you cut down trees, you know, it depends why you kind

of put your lens when we kicked off.

So, you know, there's, there's a whole thing around animals as well.

Isn't it?

So, you know, it depends where you put your lens around sustainability, but

I think really it's around a balance and I kind of see sustainability a

bit like a diet that you can go on the Atkins diet and lose loads of.

At least it was white and then put it all back on or you

can change your habits a bit.

And it's an incremental now, typically I don't think, and I'm guilty of it.

I want a quick win, you know, I want to be able to lose weight quickly.

Everyone does, but you will actually see the biggest changes where

you do it over a period of time.

And I think that's kind of what B Corp is driving at is that changes over

time, the sustainable changes doing the right thing, which means that

you have a big of impact at the end.

So you're not just.

Um, changes really quickly, but you actually ended up going back

because it's not sustainable for you.

You do it slowly over time.

Um, and economic wise.

Just simply the things like switching the light off.

So if your money, doesn't it, you know, turning the heating down

little things like that, that, you know, it's sustainably good from

an environmental point of view, but it also saves your money.

So why wouldn't

you

do it?

Exactly.

And, um, I like the diet analogy because in order to.

Successfully diet, I guess, is the term to use.

There is to be able to measure so measure where you are now and where

you perhaps want to get to, but also measure what you're putting in and

what you're you're taking out in terms of say exercise or with the

types of foods that you're eating.

And again, one of the bigger barriers, I guess, to.

To long-term sustainability is the measurement of, well, how

do we measure, how do we start measuring our carbon footprint?

How do we start measuring the carbon footprint in our supply chain?

If that's something that we don't necessarily directly control their

output, but we still work with them.

How do we do that?

And the big court process.

As I understand it allows you to start that measurement.

It gives you guidance as to how to measure.

And that's an important step in getting started is you need to know where you are

before you can then decide where you want to get to and how you want to get there.

Is that right?

Yeah.

A hundred percent.

I mean, I think, um, you know, like with anything the, you know, you kind

of summed it up nicely, which is you've got to have that measure at the end

and to know where you're getting into.

And I think in many ways, It's going to be on the end and going well,

where do we keep continuing to?

But you're right.

I think that the importance, I think what B Corp for us providers,

the certification is great.

You know, it's something that we can say, well, look what we're saying,

we're doing, we're doing, but it also provided a platform for us to

measure some most ends, you know, did I expect to get it as soon as we did?

Probably not.

In many ways, I was really happy that we did, obviously, you

know, I thought we'd have to do.

Um, there was more things we could do, but actually, um, I think in terms of

the measurements, it gives you ideas.

I think you can improve on.

So, like for example, we were.

The company going through our carbon footprint analysis.

Um, now previously we didn't to have the resource where we, you know,

tying, you know, as you know, with anything, your time's always limited.

So we did a bit of work on it, but not low.

So our scoring on that was, was kind of, you know, have you

measured it, we've looked at it.

So that's a small point, but you don't get as many points because

you haven't done it in depth.

So that kind of directed towards, well, actually we need to do

that because that's really.

So we're doing that more in depth now.

Um, and it gives you ideas around incentivization of staff.

It gives you ideas around community engagement, you know, things like

measuring the community engagement.

How would you measure that?

It makes you start thinking about those things.

So whilst I'm not a massive, you know, personal stats and figures and,

and, and, and spreadsheets and stuff.

What I do recognize is like you said, the importance of having

a measurement that you can drive towards and improve, keep improving.

And I think that's, that's.

Do really well and give us, um, give us a good platform to do that and ideas.

I mean, it's about the network as well.

So once you're within the network, there's a lots of support on

how can I make this better?

You know, I've got this idea.

I want to do this, but how do I do it as anyone else done it?

Um, and get those ideas from like-minded people.

Yeah.

And that peer support is so important because if you're the first person

blazing a trail and doing it, it is possibly the most difficult.

But when you've got the ability to call upon others, that could be from completely

unrelated industries and trades and geographically different locations across

the peacocks of global, um, Uh, movement.

It, it allows you to draw on those experiences and perhaps think of things

in a different way to how you would have been anyway because of that peer knowledge

and the learning you can do through that.

Yeah.

And you, you kind of feel the trailblazer, obviously people learn from your mistakes.

Um, but then in terms of the actual, um, And that would you say to someone

who's done something maybe similar or thought something similar, you know,

and also it seems like combining with the grapes, you know, um, there's a

group that, um, kind of, uh, an internal working group that I'm sat on and we were

talking about plastics and packaging.

And one of the things someone said is, oh, you know, if I want to reduce

my plastic, I have to order it.

And this meant this much quantity, for example, And actually then his point

was, well, perhaps there were other B Corp's that aren't necessarily in his

industry that could also water that plastic or that type of plastic in order

to allow him to get that minimum order, which would be a better type of plastic

than the one he's currently using.

So that's quite interesting as things like that, where you can

actually do something tangible.

Yeah.

Business-related there.

Isn't just, you know, people and planet side of things.

I think sometimes turn certain people up.

You can actually lose a tangible good for the business as well.

Yeah.

And going back to sort of the starting point for.

Were you, and I'm assuming it was you that sort of drove

the, um, move towards B Corp.

Uh, how did that get raised initially?

So was it a board meeting?

Was it a family conversation?

Was it, how did baker come onto your agenda?

And then you thought that's what we want to take on as a business.

So, um, it was actually a meeting with a customer, uh, uh,

probably five years ago, maybe.

Um, time goes so quick.

I lost that one.

We lost 20, 20 that week.

Like it was whatever happened, 20, 20 kind of didn't happen.

So I'm still in fun, 19.

So it probably was five years ago.

Could've been three, but I met with and, um, he was, he's kind

of very much in sustainability.

Um, the back of Tom and he, he basically said.

Um, was asking me, what do we do it?

And I was like, well, yeah, I'd love to do it.

But at the time he probably was longer than five years ago.

We were quite small.

I was like, well, it's, you know, it's a little bit money.

And I did, you know, it wasn't something that fit and I wanted to

go away and find out more about it.

So it's always been in the back of my mind.

And every time I looked at it as a car, we want to do that.

But other things got in the way.

And then I just kind of decided a couple years ago that we're just going to do it.

I just sat there one day, went on the B assessment that the BIA BIA, um, and the

assessment that they have and just went on there and just filled it as much as I

could stop there for two or three hours.

Um, and then just kept coming back to it and adding to it.

And I slowly began to realize that actually what we were doing.

Was actually very much in keeping with the B-Corp side of things.

And we were doing quite well on the score.

And I was like, well, actually this will be quite a good certification to get.

And it's particularly because we were saying a lot of the things they

were saying within the movement, but it's an external way to kind of go,

that's what we're actually doing.

So when we're telling our customers doing X, Y, and Z, this is a way to go.

We actually do it.

We do do it.

Um, so yeah, so, so from that perspective, um, it was kind of a bit of a slow.

Um, but something that I did really want to do, but we just got to the point

where I was like, this is the right time.

Um, and it fit with, with kind of, um, you know, time resource and everything as

well that we could, we could give to it.

And then bringing that into the business was there.

Uh, was it embraced with open arms?

Was there some resistance, perhaps some reluctance from,

from some, some skepticism?

What, what was the feeling within the business that you started

to kind of go down that route?

I think he was really excited.

I think everyone was actually kind of, because again, we, because the

way that we work, we try and make it quite inclusive in what we're doing.

And I think people were quite excited because they, they could

see, it was a way for us to.

Kind of, I guess, measure what we were doing, but also show the world what we

were doing in a way and say, look, yeah.

Okay.

Well, everything we're saying, we are doing it's here, you know, this,

this is a succinct way of showing it.

So, yeah.

And everyone's really on board.

I mean, I think both, you know, Keith and my mom started the

business with the wisdom of the ethos that was around community.

It was around family.

It was around creating something within the business that was.

Kind of positive that I can positive moments.

That is a sustainable product.

So that was the holy ghost behind it.

And then when my sister and I, because obviously my mum and my

dad, um, we already had that.

Feel also within us.

So I think we kind of put that forward from that.

That sounds really fluffy.

Doesn't it?

That isn't really the best answer.

And what does it think?

It's something that is inherent.

I think, you know, you do reflect quite a lot of your parents' values.

Um, I think that's what we've done taking this forward.

Yeah, I agree.

And I think one of the, again, the important points that you made there was,

this was a way of when you started to look down the criteria and the measurement

side of things, it was a way of actually proving that what you were doing was

already aligned to what you wanted to be.

Doing.

And again, I think that can be quite an intimidating area for, for businesses

to think that this is going to tell me that I've been doing everything

wrong my entire 10 years as the leader of this business manager,

director, or whatever role that they're fulfilling, but actually very often.

And again, I think maybe I'm biased because of my sort of feelings

towards family businesses, but there is so much more alignment with.

The sustainable side of things from a economic and environmental

issue because of the long-term nature of family business.

That actually, they're probably right.

And far more towards what's being asked of other corporations than they recognize.

And this is a good way to celebrate that and to recognize it and measure it and

almost get some external validation that.

Well, what we've been doing that we thought was right for so long,

actually the others are being asked to measure themselves against this

now because it's so important to the environment and to the economy.

Yeah.

I think that's really true.

I think, um, think it's, it's, there's a lot of things within family businesses

that are inherently, I mean, not again, this isn't everyone, but I know a lot from

businesses I've come across over the time.

There seems to be an inherent thing about looking after them.

And that's a big part of B Corp Corpus is making sure that your team and

the community around you is being considered when decisions are being made.

So that's the first and foremost, the other thing is around, um, stakeholders

and shareholders, um, and changing your articles of association to reflect

that you will take into consideration your stakeholders and not just your

shareholders, um, which is massive.

And I think a lot of family businesses.

Yeah.

Again, we buy into that because they see the whole of the businesses

as stakeholders, rather than just focusing on the family shareholders.

Um, and I, and I think then going into kind of, um, the thoughts

around that future legacy a hundred percent, I think there's, there's,

uh, there's, there's also the thing.

Isn't there with family businesses where new generations are coming through.

So, what you've got is you've got a mix of, of generations in there.

You've got the generations that did it a certain way.

You've got the next generation coming through who are maybe doing

it slightly differently because of tech or because of whatever else.

And then you've got a new generation, which I'm sure will take, hopefully

take take on from Humphrey and their feature, which are completely different

in terms of the tech that they've got.

They know that they've kind of born with a mobile phone in their hand, you know?

So in many ways, Businesses are always evolving.

And I think perhaps that's where the family businesses benefit for things

like B Corp peers, because the ideas of on the table are very barely just,

you know, they are sometimes obviously, but as the new generations coming

through, you've got, you've got them.

You've got the experience and knowledge base of the older generation,

which is absolutely key to respect.

That's number one, um, as a new generation coming through is they've

got the knowledge, they've got the experience they've got the life time.

That can bring something, really enhance the table and the history of business.

And you've got the new generation, they've got kind of maybe new ideas

that are coming through as well.

So you've got a good mix though.

And I think that also makes family businesses quite forward thinking in

many ways, when it comes to how they manage things like the environment and

their team, and going back to your point about kind of right and wrong ways.

I don't necessarily see it.

The historic of what business has done is wrong.

It's just what it's done, unless it's something really wrong, but I'm talking

in the bounds of wrong decision that was made 10 years ago probably was

the right decision for that business.

10 years ago.

Fast-forward now is actually, maybe the business is just evolving.

It isn't wrong.

It's just changed.

And I think that's kind of what the beak or, um, it's around changing

slightly what you do rather than.

Completely turning it on its head and go and be doing everything wrong.

Yeah.

That makes sense.

Yeah, absolutely.

It does.

And I think I'm going to, um, destroy this phrase now, cause I'm not sure I've

got it right entirely in my head, but there's a phrase in business that some

people refer to as the most dangerous phrase in business being the reason we

do that is because that's always the way that we've done that or variations of it.

It probably sounds much better in the actual saying.

From a, from a family dynamics perspective is that it's not being

critical of what's gone before it's being accepting of decisions were being

made with the best interest in mind.

At that time, given the information and access to knowledge that

we had at that time that has changed the world has changed.

I mean, you mentioned 2020 is.

You know this last year in terms of what we've all had to experience with the

pandemic, and that would never have been on people's agendas, making decisions,

even in 2019, because it wasn't something that was necessarily on the radar.

So having that ability to adapt and accept things for what they are,

I'm guessing helps from a family harmony perspective as well, that.

You're not kind of good to come back home, or you made that decision 15 years

ago, you made that distance eight months ago and it's completely the wrong thing.

It's just, okay, we've got our eye on where we're going.

We know what we want to achieve.

We need to accept that we're all on this bus together.

Yeah.

And I think, think decisions we make isn't, you know, no one makes them

opposition on purpose quite often.

And I will say some of my friends might even.

To be blunt about it.

Sometimes you just wouldn't get it, you know, and sort of ex experience

some of it's knowledge base.

Some of it's kind of good, but in certain, sometimes you do

just take a point and, and go the least risky thing to do here is X.

And so we're going to do that or the most risky thing here

with the biggest reward is why.

So we're going to do that.

So, you know, if business was a person perfect formula, then everyone will

be a multimillionaire, you know?

So it's not.

What I at the time.

Um, come to recognize is, is that respect again?

And they've always respected.

My parents is, has been some that it's inherent, but I think to respect the

fact that my mom and Keith have a lot of experience and it's particularly

when I first came in is not to just go, no, we're gonna do it that way.

That was wrong.

Last time, you know, what you did 10 years ago was wrong.

Cause it's not it.

And you respect the fact that, that they make a decision in that time.

And it was right because the business wouldn't be where it was now, if it,

if that hadn't happened, And, um, yeah.

And to your point about the, um, a pandemic is when we got

our ISO 9,001 certification, we had to do business continuity.

And in that meeting, we were like going left field.

And I was like I said, I actually said, I want you to put an alien invasion and

I was shot down, but I'd actually say

nothing should be off the agenda.

Now

we're going to put that in.

Hindsight's a wonderful thing.

Isn't it.

But, um, I think, you know, jokes aside, it's important to recognize both the past.

But also what's going to go on in the future and recognize where someone was at

in the past when they made that decision.

Because as I say, it's, it was probably the right decision at the time.

It's just about evolution.

And it's my, again, it's this, this opinion from what I've

experienced, I'm sure other people have very different experiences.

And I think what, okay.

One of the things that you mentioned there, one of the changes that you've,

um, instigated through the B Corp process is the changing of language within your

articles from shareholder to stakeholder.

And I imagine for a lot of the audience that are listening, that makes sense.

It's a logical thing to go.

Yes.

That's how we think.

But for those that are perhaps outside.

So family business land, um, that change can seem quite a big

change and quite a mind set shift.

But what, again, I'll get any impressions of correct me if I'm wrong.

The feeling of stakeholder is felt throughout your business.

It's not, it's not an us and them kind of environment.

It's very much a team approach and that everybody within the

business feels part of what it is that you're trying to achieve.

And do you feel that the stakeholder language change is a reflection of

that or that the feeling within the business as a result, the language

change, if that makes sense.

So it's like a horse and cart kind of analogy.

Yeah.

And I mean, um, I would say that the change was a

reflection of what we already thought.

So it's been a reflection of what was already there rather

than what we put in afterwards.

Vehicle has allowed us the platform to imprison things so such as

networks or, or, or suggestion, or, you know, as a measurement, you

can go, we can do better than that.

But I think going to the point around, um, kind of chicken or the egg or wholesome

car is, um, I think it was already there.

And to me, and this is probably my naivety outside of kind of the world

that I'm currently in is, I don't know why you wouldn't change it, even,

even if you've got showers going well, actually, um, I'm nervous about that

because it means you're going to take me to a company making decisions.

The point of stakeholders is you're making the best decision for them.

So because the business really you're making the best decision

that's gonna drive the business forward because ultimately everyone

wants the business to survive.

Not at any cost.

Clearly if you're destroying the environment, that's not okay.

But if you just got normal business taking along the best way, in my opinion,

again, my opinion, I'm sure someone would have an argument against it, but in my

opinion, the best way to make a business function from a, for a long period of time

and be profitable and to have a future.

Is to involve your stakeholders when you're making the decisions,

because why would you make a decision that impacts the environment?

If that meant that in five years time, your business couldn't function well,

why would you make a decision that impacted your team if it meant that

all your team walked out tomorrow?

I, it blows my mind, but I'm sure there's arguments against them.

I'm opens up discussions in my, in my mind.

I just go, I don't understand why you wouldn't change it to stakeholders.

It's not that much of a difference because actually when you're taking

into consideration your shareholders, you are taking into consideration the

impact on the business of everything.

So to change the stakeholders, it's just to respect the people that are working

for you and the community around you.

So again, I'm, I'm, that's my opinion.

Um, as I say, I'm sure there's, there's valid arguments against it.

Yeah.

And I, I guess, um, one of the.

Uh, it's not an argument against it, but one of the concerns

would be that by changing it from shareholder to stakeholder, that

you would ignore the shareholders.

But the point you're making there is your shareholders are still stakeholders.

It's broader than just working on the basis of only speaking to the

shareholders, when you're trying to make decisions, it's taken decisions

that incorporate everything.

So the impact on your team, the impact on the local community, the impact

on your shareholders, the impact on.

Your management structure, all of that's taken into account.

So it's not excluding shareholders and saying you're no longer important.

It is saying you are really important, but actually, so this whole other group

of people that we need to bear in mind when we're making these decisions.

Yeah.

And I

think what, maybe again, this is a crazy statement and

I'm sure there's other arguments, but what gets me is you wouldn't be

a shareholder without your stake.

Because you wouldn't have a business without people around you or the community

around you or the, the environment.

So if you had no planet, there'd be no businesses.

If you had new people, you're talking to the team.

If you had no community again, you wouldn't have no taken because the

community is what, obviously the people are, the people come from local.

So you kind of go, well, it's all very well being arrogant and sitting there

and saying, I'm, I'm a shareholder.

So, you know, actually this should all be about me over in the business.

That's one of you to have.

The other view is a shelter is to go well, actually the people that work for,

you know, for the, for the shareholders in the very common is I don't believe

that's true, but people at work with you, the community around you or the

environments around you, without that you wouldn't be sitting around the table.

So why would.

Give them the respect to consider them in your, in your, um, in your

constituent decision-making way.

And it's just human you.

So she made isn't it, you know, it's having a bit Nancy and empathy

that these, you know, the people and the environment and something

that's absolutely key to business.

And, and I think what kind of a little bit, without going too, too green on

people were kind of a little bit in the ma in the kind of mess we're in a

little bit, because those things happen.

ignored and we're moving into a arounds where we're having to

fix that Vectrus effectively.

Um, and that was not to just, again, not decisions were made in

the past for the right reasons.

Um, it's just, now we need to find ways to improve that.

As you can probably hear from my passionate speech about is I'm quite

passionate about the fact that the way we do that, it's not, it's not by everyone.

Switching into electric cars is not by everyone, suddenly switching the

lights off and, and, and you know that there are ways to help it, but

it it's about small steps by everyone.

And not just one big leap into one, one sector or one time.

And object or application, if that makes any sense as well.

And it is taking ownership of it as collectively,

as well, and not waiting for either the government to fix something or

for other people to fix something.

And then we'll look at it at, at that point, it's taking the initiative,

taking ownership of it and, um, sort of moving forward on your own steam

rather than waiting for somebody else to come along and do that for you.

And again, without.

There are other ways that than be caught for doing that.

But B Corp gives you the framework and the, um, sort of

motivation to go down that route.

So it's just not quite, you don't, you don't necessarily have

to have the book to be a good business.

Like there were plenty of absolutely awesome businesses and check

your local ones that I know of.

That aren't interesting to open and I think this is more around.

The ethos of it, rather than the actual certification, you know, it's

not, it's not like for everyone and naturally it has its own cost to it.

And you know, you have to take time to fill it in and all those things

that I just said, a great, gotcha.

It's obviously got reasons people don't do it.

I think the point about it, Ks isn't necessarily getting B-Corp

and isn't necessarily being the most perfect business in the world.

No, we're not perfect.

Um, it's around just considering it.

You know, the businesses as a really exciting tool to fix some

of the problems out there and we'll help to contribute towards it.

I think that's quite exciting for me is we can have our own small little impact

by doing a few things a bit better.

That's quite a nice, a nice feeling as bit selfish, but it's

quite a nice feeling inside.

Yeah, but there's no kind of losers from that.

It's okay to have that nice feeling as well.

Isn't it?

Because you're doing it.

It's a nice feeling because you're doing good rather than, you

know, your example, you're saying dumping chemicals into the sea.

If you've got a nice feeling from that, there might be some issues

around that side of it, but that's not perhaps as widely accepted, but

it is okay to feel good about this.

And there'll be said right from the get go, the show is okay to be

profitable and to make money and to.

You know, contribute positively to society by doing the right things.

That's, you know, the perfect combination.

It's a celebration that, that should be happening on that.

That rather than, you know, people being put under the microscope for,

um, trying to take those steps forward.

Well, I quite like, I mean, I'm a massive fan of having Potter.

Um, and I quite like, there's a, there's a saying in it.

Um, and someone's a bigger fan on how part of me will tell me this is wrong, but

there's a saying in that there's something along the lines of, um, I think it's

Donald, or he says it, oh, cigarettes.

That everyone has both light and dark, right?

So it's such a true phrase that, you know, no, one's perfect.

And everyone has things that they do that aren't as good and

housing's really, it's better.

And, you know, I think that the great thing about BEACOPP or a something like,

or kind of that ethos of just doing things a little bit more mindful, I guess, is

not necessarily to point out the floors.

It's not necessarily to tell you do something wrong is to just kind of go.

Well, we can do things a bit better and actually that's take some of

that light and do something good.

Um, and that was the kind of, I guess that's always been a bit of an inherent

ethos for me, um, to kind of try and do the right thing, recognizing

that don't always get it right.

You know, that's, that's, I'm the first to recognize that, but you know, this is this

constant drive for things to be perfect and people to do things the right way.

And, and that isn't that isn't human, you know, the people do

sometimes make mistakes, but.

It's what you do after those mistakes as well, which are key.

And it's, it's forgive forgiveness as well.

Isn't it?

You know, I'm going a bit, a little bit off the time to now, but the point being

that, you know, I don't want necessarily, I never want to come across that.

You know, we're saying this is the only way you can do business cause

it's not, but it's just that slightly more mindfulness of a business to go.

When you make a decision, how does this impact my team and how

does it impact the wider world?

And just taking that second to just consider it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And, um, I think what you've highlighted to the audience today is that the ways and

means of doing that and getting started and looking at it and, um, again, by

hearing other people's stories, it helps it become more attainable for, for others.

And I really hope that's, um, been, been received by ordinance.

I'm sure it has.

Um, if people want to get in touch and, um, sort of find out a bit

more about you, where would they go?

Um, so you can go on social media.

So we are at, we are welcome on or apart from Tik TOK, went on, tick up

on Instagram and Twitter and Facebook.

And then, um, www will call.com is our website.

I want to find a bit more.

Um, yeah, so, but yeah, it's, it's been a really interesting discussion.

I think.

They, um, I know there's loads of really amazing family businesses out there.

Um, and I think one thing I said with the MBA thing is don't if you see mean

girls, but she breaks off the, the Tiara, then she gets to go and cheat for

the people who know this breaks off in those hour and a bit with like the MBAs.

I think for me, that's for everyone offices is, is, is it, you know,

somewhat stakeholders around.

So I think, uh, You know, from our side, from, from, from my side, there's

loads of amazing businesses out there that don't get them back to shield

they shirt, um, and to kind of keep going the way they're doing it because

family businesses are amazing and, and really great for us in the UK.

And I don't think that gets recognized.

I'm passionate about family businesses to play.

Excellent.

Well, thank you so much for your time, sharing your story and those,

um, really useful insights as well.

And, um, again, congratulations on the, uh, MBA.

Uh, yeah, the Porter speaking again.

Thanks so

much for listening everyone and yeah.

Have a great day.