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Alfonzo Burton is one of the top designers in UI/UX. His insight and unsurpassed design techniques have been utilized by many of the top grossing games in the marketplace to date, many achieving the 100-Million-dollar mark. Alfonzo has founded two design companies that have both been a driving force in UI/UX for the past 15 years. He worked as a Director of UI/UX for both Glu, and Pocket Gems and then moved on as CEO/Creative Director to begin Uxmagicians Inc, a San Francisco-based full-service user experience design agency that focuses on gaming experiences and digital products. Visit www.playmakerspodcast.com to get access to the full blog post for this episode and much more!
Welcome to PlayMakers.
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:I'm your host Jordan Blackman
and you know the drill.
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:Every week I interview a game
industry expert and I go deep with
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:them on what they know to pull away
things that are going to be useful
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:to you in what you do while also
giving you a bigger, wider picture.
6
:This is a way for you to break out of your
box while also going deeper into your box.
7
:You might call it a para
box, or not, I don't know.
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:But this week we have Alphonso Burton.
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:We're talking UX.
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:He is a master on this.
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:subject.
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:There's a lot to learn.
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:Stay tuned.
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:So here's the deal with Alfonso.
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:I was looking for a UX expert to
work with on a project and we ended
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:up talking to each other and I was
so impressed with this guy that I
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:invited him on the show on the spot.
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:So, Alfonso, The deal with Alfonso
is that he has worked on several
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:free to play mobile games that
have broken the 100 million mark.
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:He typically has several, you know,
apps in the top 100 grossing on
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:the App Store at any given time.
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:He was a UX director at both Glue
and Pocket Gems, and now he's
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:the CEO and creative director.
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:At UX magicians, and they're a full
service UX design agency kind of
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:deal, and they will rock your UX.
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:If you're looking for that sort of thing.
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:And even if you're not, you are going
to get a ton out of this episode because
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:we talk about misconceptions about UX.
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:We talk about what Alfonso thinks
are the keys to a hit game.
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:What UX really is, because
it's not what you think.
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:And, uh, when to innovate in the UX
and when to stick to things that work.
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:We talk about machine zone and
why their games, uh, do so well,
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:even though they're kind of fugly.
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:Now, real quick, before
we get into the interview.
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:I want to say a couple of things.
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:One.
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:If you haven't subscribed to Playmakers
Insiders, you got to do that.
38
:Go to playmakerspodcast.
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:com and you can sign up there.
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:You won't miss any episodes and we have
exclusives and you're going to find
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:out how to ask questions in advance
and all sorts of cool stuff like that.
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:So head over to playmakerspodcast.
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:com and become an insider.
44
:Also, if you're digging the show, if
you're getting a lot out of it, Please
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:write us a review on iTunes and tell
us what you want to hear on the show in
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:the future, what guests, what topics,
that is how we bring you what you
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:want, and that's also how we know that
we're doing a good job, and it's also
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:how I grow the show, really need those
interviews, it makes a big difference,
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:so for those of you who are doing
them, I really, really appreciate it.
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:And with that, here is Alfonso.
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:Alfonso, thank you so much
for being on the show.
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:I'm really excited to have you on.
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:Yeah.
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:Thanks for having me.
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:I really appreciate you having me on here.
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:I'm excited about it.
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:Well, you know, we had the opportunity
to connect a little bit professionally
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:and just talking with you.
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:In that context, I was so
excited by what you had to say
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:and your insights were so good.
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:I was like, you've got
to come on the show.
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:So thanks for agreeing to do it.
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:I appreciate it.
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:I really appreciate it.
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:So I know that you started in web
and then made the transition to kind
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:of mobile and game and now like.
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:You know, console game UX too, I think.
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:What was that translation like for you,
and, and you know, what were you kind
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:of learning yourself as you go, and what
did you bring to the table from Web?
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:This is the thing about the Web.
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:The Web taught us everything
about how to engage, uh, users,
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:or players, if you would.
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:Um, because in the early days of Web,
Uh, we learned about banner ads and the
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:whole point of banner ads was to get
people to click through and you wanted
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:the highest click through rate, so we
did probably thousands of banner ads.
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:Uh, and then the point was to get them
to the websites we were building, and
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:when they came to the websites, we
had to keep them engaged, we had to,
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:uh, lead them through the website.
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:This is all before it was
even called user experience.
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:And one of the things that we
found in early web is that games
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:were the things that were the
sticky pieces of the websites.
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:And so it got really good at one, the
acquisition of users into a website
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:and then how to keep them there.
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:I remember seeing banner ads
that were like little games.
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:Oh yeah, I mean, we did everything
from click throughs to, hey, win this
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:car, to little games, I mean it was,
uh, banner ads are still used a lot,
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:but not like it was in the early days
of the web, and, uh, just learning
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:how to engage players was huge, and
it translates one to one in games.
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:And so most of everything that I
learned from the website of the
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:business, uh, when we get into games,
games is just more features, but it's
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:the same way that you engage players.
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:You just have a little
more features to tap on.
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:So it's a one to one translation for sure.
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:And was there anything that, that
you kind of didn't expect coming into
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:games, or that, that surprised you?
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:Uh, no, cause we, I've always been a
fan of games, and we've built so many
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:games, we've probably built 300 games for
AOL back when the Flash games were big.
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:So we did casual games before they
were even called casual games.
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:So, when we got into the mobile space
and into the console space, we, we, we
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:love games, so we've always played them.
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:We've always sat down and played
them, and we're like, oh, they should
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:do this, or this should happen, or
this is confusing, or this is weird.
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:So Once we got a chance to get our hands
on the UX, it was just like, do what
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:we intuitively thought, and it works.
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:And it just started working, and
games started going number one, and,
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:you know, making a lot of money,
and so it was a nice transition.
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:And what about going the other way around?
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:Like, are there kind of misconceptions
about UX that you've encountered
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:over and over again with your clients
and on projects you've worked on?
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:This is one of the best
questions in the world.
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:I love this question.
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:There is the huge misconception,
and this is the one thing about it.
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:Everyone thinks that they can do UX.
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:Everyone.
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:VPs, GMs, producers, executive
producers are like, Hey, we can do GMs.
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:And I always relate it to this
point, is that you rarely see
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:anybody go to the lead engineer and
say, Hey, I figured out the code.
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:I know how to do this AI, right?
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:It's hands off.
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:They kind of just leave the, the,
the engineers to do what they do,
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:but they have that same thought about
UX and they feel like, Hey, cause I
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:can see it because the color's blue.
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:I want a green or I've
seen it somewhere else.
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:They know, and so the biggest
misconception is UX is a process.
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:It's a process of coming up with
the right solutions and, and you
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:have to go through that process.
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:You can't just say, Hey, do
this because you have no idea.
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:If you change one thing or you
make something deep in a game,
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:it can affect the entire product.
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:And so, that is the biggest misconception.
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:You really need people that understand
how to engage players in a digital
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:world to create top grossing hits.
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:So, in other words, people don't
realize that it actually is a process.
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:Exactly.
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:And it's, it's, because it's so easy
to look over someone's shoulder,
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:especially a UI designer or someone
that's working on the game, and they
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:say, oh, well, let's move that to the
left, or let's move that to the right,
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:or, Uh, we, here's a feature we want
to add, put that button here again.
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:We got, why would that button exist there?
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:Do we need that button there?
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:You know, and it's, uh, there's a long
process of testing and putting it in and
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:testing again with live users to really
figure out if it makes sense to be there.
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:And those who don't do that typically
don't reach the top 150 gross in a mobile.
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:That's interesting.
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:Cause yeah, one of the things I'm, I also
wanted to ask you about was sort of best
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:practice versus innovation and talking
about it as a process, I think shows
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:the kind of where I think you might go.
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:Right.
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:In terms of, you know, you can't
answer that in abstraction.
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:It's sort of about the process of testing.
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:And that's the one thing I love about UX,
it is a process, it's an architectural
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:process, it is like engineering something
and there's a core pillars, and if
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:you just do the process, it works.
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:And so, you know, Uh, for, for us, what
we've seen over the number of years,
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:um, you know, having 11 top grossing
games and two still sit in the top 100
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:grossing, uh, right now is that there's
three core pillars to creating a hit.
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:Um, first it's gotta be fun.
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:You gotta tell us what they are.
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:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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:First pillar is, it's gotta be fun.
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:You've gotta have a fun core mechanic.
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:Um, if you have a fun game, It is so much
easier to make money with a fun game.
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:Um, so And let's say you got a team and
like a couple people think it's fun,
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:a couple people don't think it's fun.
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:How do we decide?
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:Well, it's all about testing.
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:So it's all about numbers, right?
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:So if you have four people and it's
half and half, well, you got to
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:get some more people in the room.
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:Um, hopefully you can get a
couple thousand into the game, uh,
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:with some simple tasks or even a
few hundred, um, into the game.
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:And again, if you have really good
designers and people on your team.
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:You can tell if the game is fun
or not, you know, there's some bit
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:to it, you know, if it's that, you
know, split down the middle, user
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:testing will tell you everything.
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:Uh, just put it in the hands of
some strangers and they'll tell
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:you the truth about your game.
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:And so, that's a, that's a
core pillar of doing that.
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:The second pillar is a deep economy.
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:I can't stress enough.
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:You have to allow players
to be able to invest deeply.
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:You know what a great game
was, is uh, Smashing Roads.
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:You ever played Smashing Roads?
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:Yeah.
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:There you go, that's a great point!
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:One of the funnest games
ever, Smashing Roads.
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:It kind of takes like the GTA
mechanic of getting chased around.
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:Um, and it's a fun game, it's a great
core mechanic, but it doesn't have
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:any demonetization strategy to it.
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:You just buy premium cars and
you just keep buying the new car.
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:That gets old after a while.
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:It feels like a toy rather than a game.
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:That's exactly right.
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:So it shot up to the
chart because it was fun.
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:But then it's nowhere to be found
because there is just nothing there
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:to sustain the game as a business.
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:So you need deep economy.
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:And that's a, there's
a lot to that as well.
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:The third thing is great UI UX.
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:And that's where we come in is
that if you have a great economy.
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:And yet players can't access that deep
economy because it's confusing or it's
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:all over the place or it's just ugly.
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:No one's ever going to
play your deep economy.
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:So you have to have great UI UX to
access all those wonderful features.
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:And so that's why UI UX is so important.
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:I tell people all the time,
nobody comes into a game and says,
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:Hey, your code looks fantastic.
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:No one cares about the code.
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:You don't see it.
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:No one ever comes in and says, Hey,
your deep systems are fantastic.
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:No one says that either.
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:They either say it's beautiful
and it works well, or it does not.
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:And so that's why UI UX is
so important to get it right.
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:Right.
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:And, and, you know, we're in a world
now where, you know, the free games
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:that people download on their phone have
budgets in the multi million dollars.
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:Right.
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:So, uh, you know, one of the, one
of the ways you can at least, you
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:can at least compete is to have a
beautiful looking, uh, UI and UX.
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:It's so, it's so true.
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:And the, and the, the tricky part about
it is that you spend, let's say, a few
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:million dollars on a game, and you're
literally giving it away for free.
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:You had better make sure that that UI,
UX, and that gameplay is fun, and you
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:have an, a deep enough economy, or, uh,
You know, you're going to be closing
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:your doors pretty quickly, being that
you're not going to make any money.
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:You know, this term UX, I've
always thought it kind of
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:funny, because what isn't UX?
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:What is not part of the user experience?
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:So that's, that's a great question, right?
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:So the user experience is everything.
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:How I coin it, I look at it like this.
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:When players put your game down
and they walk away, do they
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:think about your game again?
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:That's a good experience.
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:Everything within that
game was the experience.
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:A lot of times when we're doing
consulting, it is very siloed and they
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:say, Hey, we just want you to focus on the
UI or we want you to focus on the flow.
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:But we know as designers and UX experts
that it is everything and so part of
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:what we do is we'll talk about the sound.
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:We'll talk about the economy.
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:We'll talk about the game balancing.
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:We'll talk about the fun of the game.
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:And so even though we are very focused
narrowly on the overall flow, we
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:focus narrowly on the overall UI.
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:We definitely know if it's fun, and we
definitely know if the economy is deep,
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:or it's right, or it's gonna make money.
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:And so, UX is very broad, uh, but when
you, when it boots on the ground, you
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:know, it can be very narrow as far as just
doing UI, doing buttons, doing interface,
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:transitions, and then doing overall flow,
how you get from one page to the next.
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:I have to ask you a little
bit more about UX process.
251
:So you've, you've given us the
three keys to succeed from your
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:point of view, which is awesome.
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:What is your perspective
on the process of UX?
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:How would you lay that out?
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:It's a fantastic question.
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:It's tried and true.
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:I will tell you the secrets
of the magic man right here.
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:Nice.
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:So, if you have a project, and
you're gonna do the UI UX, the first
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:thing we always say is, figure out
what it's going to look like first.
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:The game design can be being figured
out, the economy can be figured out,
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:they're still working on the gameplay.
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:Uh, but if you come in and you figure
out what the game is going to look
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:like, all the buttons, the theme, and
the style, you have a locked product.
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:Then, once you have that locked
style, and what we do is go to
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:two or three different styles.
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:We already know.
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:We're not gonna try to come out the
first time and say, Hey, here it is.
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:This is the first chance we did.
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:It's the first time we tried.
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:We already know we're gonna do
at least two or three times.
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:Because you wanna make sure that you've
tried every idea you could possibly try.
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:Mm-Hmm.
274
:. Mm-Hmm.
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:. So you can choose the best one.
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:You don't wanna just do one and
then try to edit it down until
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:everybody sort of likes it.
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:Get the one that everyone loves.
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:Not that one.
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:Everyone's just trying to like, so like an
iterative prototype style approach to ui.
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:You.
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:You have to do that.
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:You have to do it.
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:And I say, and, and the thing is,
you have to let the design process
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:have its day, have its saved.
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:It just takes time.
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:So you won allot that time because once
you do it, you never have to pivot.
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:So many games pivot.
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:'cause they get halfway through the
game and people get tired of looking
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:at it where it didn't quite fit, where
it's too heavy or something like that.
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:If you just do all the hard work up
front, you'll never have to pivot again.
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:Uh, the second thing, once you get
your actual look and feel, then
293
:you start working on the overall
flow and the overall layout of each
294
:every page, because now, once you
do a layout, you can actually apply
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:the approved design style to it.
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:So you're actually doing UX and UI
at the same time, and a lot of teams
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:I see, they'll do all the wires
and they'll have all these layouts.
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:But yeah, they still don't know what
their product needs to look like,
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:and then they hire a UI designer
to come and paint in the boxes.
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:The challenge with that is that
sometimes design informs function.
301
:So it could literally change
the entire page based on the
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:design you're going to do.
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:So you need to do those together.
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:Um, and so that is the
simplest process to do it.
305
:Uh, and it's tried and true, and if
you do it every single time, the ad
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:agencies do it, that's how they get
you to click on things, uh, that's
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:how websites are done, that's how apps
are done, um, now we're applying that
308
:same process to games, it just works.
309
:So the mistake is to lay out a bunch of
wireframes and then Kind of lay a UI over
310
:it and the right approach is to figure
out the look that the whole UI is going to
311
:have up front and then you can move those
pieces around kind of within the, uh, for
312
:the needs of that specific part of the UI.
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:Exactly.
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:Because while you're figuring out
the look, um, what we do is we take
315
:the hardest system in the game and
we figure out the look for that.
316
:So now you have a look and you know how
your product is actually going to work.
317
:Once you have those two together,
then you just, you know, apply
318
:it to the rest of the game.
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:It's just that simple.
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:It becomes more of like an autopilot.
321
:You can actually hand it off to a,
more of a junior UI UX designer to
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:carry that design throughout the game.
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:Uh, the game, because you've figured
out all the hard stuff up front.
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:So it sounds like, you know, you'd
love it if people would call you up
325
:really early on in their development.
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:That's one of the things.
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:People like to call, hey, we
got the game figured out, we
328
:got all this stuff figured out.
329
:And then at the end,
they started calling UIX.
330
:We're like, okay, now we're
painted in the corner.
331
:We have all these technical
limitations and all these limitations.
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:And so, we love pre greenlight.
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:Like, the sooner you get UI UX involved,
the more likely you're not going to pivot.
334
:And so, You gotta get it up sooner.
335
:That's one thing I love about that
we've seen as a trend in games is that
336
:before UI was an afterthought, now it
is a thought that's coming up front.
337
:It still needs to be earlier and earlier
in the process, and a lot of teams are
338
:like, hey, when do we bring the UI UX in?
339
:Um, and I always say
bring them in right away.
340
:I mean, we come in on some projects
pre green light just to create an
341
:overall look and feel to see if the
executives want to buy in on a game.
342
:It's hard to buy in on the game, you don't
know what it looks like, but once you
343
:figure out what it looks like, at least
some concepts, you can start figuring out
344
:if it's something you want to invest in.
345
:And you know, even, even
consumers and customers are
346
:experiencing things sooner, right?
347
:Whether it's Kickstarter or
Steam, Greenlight, you know, so
348
:I would, I would want to bring
you in before doing those things.
349
:It's a great point.
350
:We've been on some projects where it
was right after green light and we
351
:literally come up with two or three
looking fields and then we test them.
352
:I mean, what a great idea.
353
:Why don't you test whether or not the
style is going to work early on so that
354
:you know what you're working on for the
next year is actually going to work.
355
:I mean, that is proper UI UX and
it's a little harder for some
356
:teams to do more than others.
357
:More people are comfortable
with that than others.
358
:Uh, but that, if you did it every time,
your shots on goal and your percent
359
:chances of having a top grossing
hit would increase drastically.
360
:Okay, so I asked some people
in the Playmakers community
361
:for some questions for you.
362
:I said, hey, I'm, I'm, I'm going to be
talking to one of the top UX designers
363
:with multiple games in the top 100.
364
:What do you want to know?
365
:And I got a couple questions from them.
366
:So, the first one was actually
specifically about the kinds of UI that we
367
:see in games like what Machine Zone does.
368
:Right.
369
:You know, and it's pretty ugly, right?
370
:And you think, gosh, like,
couldn't they do Better.
371
:Why don't they improve it?
372
:So, you know, what's up with that?
373
:I love it.
374
:I love it.
375
:So first of all, you got
to look at machine zone.
376
:You've got to give credit
where credit is due, right?
377
:They've been in the
top 10 for a long time.
378
:So when we say bad versus good,
um, you know, it's kind of,
379
:it's kind of relative, right?
380
:It's good because it's one of the most
successful games that ever been created.
381
:I understand what people mean by it's bad.
382
:Like if you get into it,
it's hard to figure out.
383
:It's hard to engage with.
384
:It actually doesn't even
look that very good.
385
:But the thing is, is that
they built that game.
386
:And so when you first build a game,
um, it is what it is when you go to
387
:market and their UI is a product of
their success because everyone learned
388
:it the way it is, because everyone
knows how to play it like that.
389
:If they were to drastically change it.
390
:You can piss the whole community off
and that affects your monetization.
391
:It is a huge risk that once players
figure out your game to change things.
392
:We've seen that in Windows,
we've seen that in iOS, we've
393
:seen that in everything.
394
:If you change it midway after everybody's
learned it, It's just frustrating
395
:at that point, so it's a product of
their own success, and so the best
396
:thing that they could do is create
a new IP and try to figure that out.
397
:That's why I say UI UX up front is so
critical, because if you get it right and
398
:then you're successful, well that's right.
399
:But if you get it wrong and then it's
successful, then you're stuck with
400
:what you have, and then it's harder to
have new players come into the game,
401
:because it's just hard to understand.
402
:So that's the thing about the
machine zone and other games.
403
:But look at something
like Clash Royale, right?
404
:Phenomenal.
405
:That game is the funnest game ever.
406
:I was highly addicted.
407
:I just had to delete it off my phones.
408
:I was spending too much.
409
:And it was taking over my life,
but it has a great UX, has a great
410
:UI, and it has a great gameplay.
411
:They don't really need
to change it very much.
412
:There's still some issues with it that
I, I have some problems where they could,
413
:uh, you know, they had to, you know,
shoehorn in some features later on.
414
:But overall, it's a fantastic
experience and it looks gorgeous.
415
:And so, they did it right
the first time and they don't
416
:have to go back and redo it.
417
:So with something like MachineZone,
you know, now that they're kind
418
:of stuck with what they've got.
419
:But I wonder, I'll tell ya, I wonder
if like, it's sort of bad on purpose.
420
:Like it's confusing so that they
can kind of lead you through it the
421
:way that they'd like more easily.
422
:The only reason I don't say
that is because I know a
423
:lot of the designers, right?
424
:I know them personally, I'm trying to
hire them, I look at their resumes,
425
:I see their portfolios, typically
nothing is done bad on purpose.
426
:Things are only done quality as the
person that's working on the product.
427
:So whoever it was That was an artist.
428
:They're a passionate artist.
429
:They love to do this stuff.
430
:They love to design.
431
:They've been in this
business for a long time.
432
:And when they sit down and do a project,
they're very passionate about it.
433
:So they did the best they
could do on that project.
434
:I don't mean bad on purpose, but
like that the, the, you know, the
435
:multitude, the insane multiplicity of
options on every screen, for example,
436
:is like, you know, creates a situation
where it's kind of easy to say, but
437
:this is the one we want you to do.
438
:Right right now again that just goes back
to because they are successful it's hard
439
:to change things and because good UX is
really a lot about categorization and how
440
:you prioritize things and so it's kind
of like Clash Royale like it's a good
441
:UI but you'll see some places where they
just had to stick something in there.
442
:Because there was nowhere else
to put it, because they didn't
443
:think about it long term.
444
:A lot of people, when they build
games, are thinking, Hey, if it
445
:lasts six months, we're happy.
446
:And that's the experience that you get.
447
:When we design games, we design it so
that it would last 24 months, at least.
448
:And so, these systems aren't
expandable, because people really don't
449
:understand UX that well, or haven't
done the process in the right way.
450
:And so, they're just, they're
stuck with what they have, and
451
:they just, I call it stickers.
452
:You just keep putting stickers in
your game, because you add features,
453
:and you put it wherever you want.
454
:And by the end You know, two years
into the game, it's just like,
455
:buttons everywhere, you know?
456
:Clash of Clans was like that, if you look
at that, there's just buttons everywhere.
457
:Successful game, but man, I mean,
there's a lot of stuff that just
458
:kind of stuck on there, because
that's where, you know, they didn't
459
:know where else to put the feature.
460
:Well, from, from, you know, my experience
on Frontierville and Castleville, I
461
:can tell you, like, any game that's
a couple years old, UX experience
462
:has probably gone down in a lot of
respects, at least if you're a new user.
463
:Right.
464
:Because over time, they
just have to introduce.
465
:New features which means new buttons
that weren't planned for and also
466
:just more that's exactly right And
it's not just games that are doing
467
:any digital experiences like that.
468
:Like if you look at the new iOS, right?
469
:There's some really great things about
it But there's also some new frustrating
470
:features that got introduced because
they're just trying to pack more into
471
:it So You know, that's a, that's a,
that's the UX challenge, you know, of
472
:a UX designer, is to get that right.
473
:Um, it all starts with
a good core, though.
474
:That's why you want to do it up front,
better, create good systems that, that
475
:are, that are, uh, we call expandable.
476
:Scale, the systems
themselves out of scale.
477
:Here's a good example, such as a sliding
side to side scrolling menu, right?
478
:If you have 10 weapons and you scroll
left to right, With that weapon that works
479
:because there's only 10 you're only going
to have to scroll three or four times But
480
:if the plan calls for a hundred weapons
That's not a good system to lead with
481
:you need a new system And you need some
filtering and you need some tabs and you
482
:need to be able to categorize those things
That's what I mean for the difference
483
:between one system versus another
system There are systems in ux that are
484
:scalable and some are not very scalable
at all So you got to figure that out up
485
:front And you don't necessarily know.
486
:Maybe, maybe you don't expect weapons to
be a huge monetization feature, and it
487
:turns out that's what ends up selling.
488
:So you're gonna need to suddenly
have a lot more than you expected.
489
:Well, that's where a good UX designer
comes in, because if someone tells
490
:me we're making a game with weapons
and their core monetization is the
491
:weapons themselves, they're like,
Oh, we're only gonna create ten.
492
:I already know that that's wrong.
493
:I've seen it.
494
:I've seen it too many times.
495
:I'm gonna say no.
496
:You know, if these are successful,
this is your core monetization.
497
:So we need a system that's going
to be able to expand because that's
498
:the only way you're making money.
499
:And so, that's what, that's what
I mean by the three pillars.
500
:You really have to
understand all those pillars.
501
:You can't just come in and say, hey,
I'm going to create something beautiful.
502
:It actually has to be functional and work.
503
:And you have to be able to
think about those things.
504
:It would, it would be pretty
interesting for like, um, machine
505
:zones, it's game of war and then
they have that mobile strike, right?
506
:It would be interesting to kind of
analyze the differences from a UI
507
:standpoint between those two games,
like what they did from one to the
508
:other, uh, from what they learned.
509
:It's always good to do that.
510
:We did that back with the Deer
Hunter and the Dino Hunter.
511
:We learned a lot from Deer Hunter.
512
:Deer Hunter went on to do 200
million plus, and it was a pretty
513
:fun game, and then Dino Hunter,
we took some of the learns from
514
:that and put it in Dino Hunter.
515
:Uh, and I know Machine
Zone does the same thing.
516
:It's one of those things where
you want to Extend the games you
517
:have your product line, but you
want to break anything, right?
518
:But there are a lot of learns but
even if you play mobile strike You'll
519
:see that they've adopted a lot of the
problems that they had in the original
520
:game And there's some things that are
improved on Uh, but again, I mean, I
521
:think that was a, a good opportunity
to actually improve on the systems.
522
:Um, but I already know
how it works internally.
523
:There are people who say,
Hey, less risk, it's better.
524
:We don't want to, you know, spend all
this money and not have it be successful.
525
:So usually you adopt those problems,
uh, because you don't think they're
526
:a problem because there's some
success that's being generated.
527
:And so The devil you know.
528
:That's a great point right there.
529
:It's awesome.
530
:Another question that came from the
Facebook community is, when people
531
:think, especially on mobile, I think,
a lot of people are thinking about,
532
:oh, it's a bunch of best practices.
533
:You know, if I had a bunch of best
practices, and I think to some
534
:extent you've already pointed out,
Well, no, it's also a process.
535
:How do you decide when to
kind of follow what's worked?
536
:Like, you know, just like we were
sort of saying with MachineZone,
537
:and when do you try to innovate
and do something new and different?
538
:It's a great point.
539
:It's a great point.
540
:I have some good answers
for how to think about that.
541
:So one is that there is a process of
onboarding new players, um, or new
542
:users if you're in the app world.
543
:And so the idea is that you don't
want to have this whole story,
544
:this whole five minute tutorial on
how to teach them about your game.
545
:And so any system that you can take
from, um, other places that people
546
:already know, it's Good idea to use those
systems on a kind of big global scale.
547
:Uh, what I mean by that is like
the hamburger menu, for instance.
548
:Everyone knows what that is.
549
:You tap that, might not
know what's inside of it.
550
:Uh, but you know, if you tap
that, you're going to access
551
:some other features, right?
552
:And that's something
you don't have to train.
553
:You don't have to tutorialize.
554
:You don't have to have an arrow bouncing.
555
:Click this for the menu,
those types of things.
556
:And so it's like, why not use that?
557
:Millions of people use it, so when you
use something like that, you're already
558
:getting access to a very broad audience
to be able to know how your game works.
559
:And so, you kind of
balance those things out.
560
:Now, when you get deeper into the
game and you're on something, a
561
:page like, Hey, I want to socket a
rune to my sword to make it better.
562
:Well, that, there's no real core, you
know, standard system for doing that.
563
:And so why not create something fun,
something no one's ever seen before?
564
:Um, something that they can learn
and engage in and have a lot of time.
565
:I mean, there's no sense in keeping,
if you copy a rune system from another
566
:game, they're just going to go, well,
this is just like this game, right?
567
:There's no real brand differentiation.
568
:And so that's how we look at it.
569
:If it's core flow and core navigation to
get in the game and understand it, Okay.
570
:It's a wise idea to use systems that
people already know, but when you
571
:start getting into the nitty gritty
gameplay, that's where you want to
572
:start differentiating yourself and
innovating and creating new things to do.
573
:You know, you wouldn't want
to go out there and just copy
574
:Clash Royale's gameplay system.
575
:They've already done it, you know.
576
:How can you improve upon that?
577
:I have a similar way that I
look at design sometimes, which
578
:is Let people play the game.
579
:This is for like mainstream
mobile mass market stuff.
580
:But let people play the game
without having to learn anything.
581
:Make it really easy to just play
and enjoy the basic mechanic.
582
:But then always add some elements
that you're going to have to learn
583
:and study so that there is a depth
there, but the depth is optional.
584
:That's exactly right.
585
:And that's why I say UI UX
part of it is it's just access.
586
:You're accessing the fun.
587
:If I created a brand new type of
menu that no one's ever seen or know
588
:how to work, Well, now that you've
created friction to access the fun,
589
:it's just going to take them that much
longer to get involved into your game.
590
:So, remove as much friction as you can,
get into the game, have some fun, play
591
:a little bit, then they'll be like, hey,
I like this game, I want to engage with
592
:these other systems, and then they'll
take the time to figure out how they work.
593
:So, you mentioned to me, when we were
chatting before the interview started,
594
:that you're just launching a new
website, so I'd love to hear about,
595
:about that, and what you're doing
with UX Magicians, and, and all that.
596
:Yeah, we're totally excited.
597
:So after several years in business
now, we launched our first brand new
598
:website, and we are now officially
a full service UI UX agency.
599
:And what that means to us is that we
can come in, we do all the research,
600
:we do all the UI, we do all the UX.
601
:But now we're actually coding.
602
:Part of our process is that we've been
handing a lot of PSDs to engineers,
603
:and they have to kind of figure out
how things transition and animate.
604
:But because of that, a lot, a
lot gets lost in translation.
605
:So now we're just doing end to end.
606
:We're gonna design it, we're gonna
figure it out, and then we're gonna
607
:build it and put it into Unity or
whatever engine that the, the, the
608
:game team is using so that we can
control then that entire experience,
609
:do all the animations, all the special
effects, all the 3D, all of that stuff.
610
:And so we got a brand new
website showcasing that.
611
:Uh, I was super excited.
612
:We got a bunch of new projects
that we did, like the WWE 2K
613
:17, uh, now that we're getting
some mobile and some other, uh.
614
:Games we're doing a working with a lot
of Asian publishers Because they have a
615
:lot of hits over there and they want to
bring them to the Western market, right?
616
:Oh, they're UI UX is really
different than the Western market.
617
:Yes, that stuff doesn't work here But
and vice versa a lot of our you know,
618
:the Western UI UX doesn't work over
in Asia And so part of that is is
619
:surfacing that on our website that say
we're doing a lot of You know, East to
620
:West games and games from West to East.
621
:So we're really excited about that.
622
:We got a brand new newsletter, so
there's a form at the very bottom of
623
:the footer to go and sign up for our
newsletter, um, so people can just keep
624
:up to date with what we've got going on.
625
:And where do they go?
626
:www.
627
:uxmagicians.
628
:com Nice.
629
:So, you know, one, one more quick
question before I let you go, Alphonso.
630
:Uh, you mentioned 2K and I know that
you, you worked on the console version.
631
:I'm kind of curious, I know there's some
things that you might not be able to
632
:talk about, but just in that experience
and on making the transition to console,
633
:are your clients on console seeing the
conversions and kind of the improvement
634
:that your mobile clients have also seen?
635
:Yes, like I said before,
it's just a digital product.
636
:This process works across the board, and
so we came in, if you look at the 2K16,
637
:that version, it was a good game, but if
you go and try to play with some of the
638
:metagame and the systems, it's very hard
and confusing to figure things out, and so
639
:we completely retooled and optimized the
system, um, and the community responded.
640
:We've gotten nothing but positive
feedback on the new UX and how it
641
:works a lot better, it looks a lot
better, and to the point where You
642
:know, we're able to work on the next
installment of that with those guys.
643
:And so it's pretty exciting.
644
:Those guys over there are
very talented over at 2K.
645
:Uh, we're really excited to
work with them and it's going
646
:to be a really good case study.
647
:Um, especially as console, we believe
and we feel like console is actually
648
:going to move to a free to play.
649
:And it's going to be great
for us because we get it.
650
:We get, you know, old school console.
651
:We get new school free
to play for console.
652
:And, uh, you know, it's going to work
and it's going to drive more revenue, uh,
653
:for those premium and AAA console games.
654
:Well, the sports games are kind of
leading the charge in that, in that way.
655
:At least they're doing sort
of a premium plus, right?
656
:Yes.
657
:Yeah, exactly.
658
:But yeah, there's, there's
still, you know, it's still,
659
:UI UX is very new in games.
660
:I mean, you wouldn't think so.
661
:You'd think it was, you know, very
mature, but it's very new and to the
662
:point where, you know, with the 2k, it
was really the first time they brought
663
:UI UX in upfront, uh, and it paid off
with dividends, you know, and, and
664
:so now they're trying to adopt that.
665
:And that's one of the things
we really want to do is we want
666
:to see that process change.
667
:Industry wide because we know it does
work and so when now we have some
668
:case studies to show how well it works
actually nice Well, thanks Alphonso
669
:so much for coming on playmakers.
670
:I think you gave us so much to
think about which is awesome I think
671
:people should definitely check out
your newsletter at uxmagicians.
672
:com and Look forward
to to working together.
673
:Thank you for having me.
674
:I really appreciate it.
675
:Thank you so much for your time Love
your show And, uh, look forward to seeing
676
:more, uh, more great people on your show.
677
:Talk more soon.
678
:Thank you so much.
679
:I had a great time in
that chat with Alfonso.
680
:I hope you took a lot away from it.
681
:Alfonso's work is incredible.
682
:And if you want to see his work
or learn more about Alfonso,
683
:Head over to playmakerspodcast.
684
:com and in the episode notes we will have
links to his company and to him and you'll
685
:be able to take a look at his work and get
in touch with him or get in touch with me.
686
:It's all right there.
687
:Also the links to any games that
we talked about go there as well.
688
:While you're there consider
signing up Playmakers Insiders.
689
:It's where it's at.
690
:We have a lot of Fun on the show.
691
:We have a lot of fun in
the newsletter as well.
692
:That's it for this week.
693
:I'll see you next week with another
great interview with an industry expert.
694
:You've been listening to playmakers.