Tina Leslie recorded 02/11/2021

Tina Leslie is a former call centre worker and community development worker. Currently she is a fitness instructor and public health worker. Tina is also the The Founder of Freedom for Girls. Freedom for Girls’ “missions and aims are to support those who menstruate by challenging the stigmas, taboos and gender inequalities associated with menstruation through education, provision of menstrual health management solutions and actively being at the forefront of the wider campaign against period poverty.”

To find out more about Freedom for Girls go to https://www.freedom4girls.co.uk/

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https://creativecommons.org/publicdomain/mark/1.0/ 

[00:00:02] Tina: What did I want to be? I always wanted to be a police woman, but I was too... 'cos I'm old. I, I'm quite old. I was too small.

[00:00:11] Tina: I'm only five foot, one and a half. And years and years ago when I was like 6, 17, 18, too small. I always fancied being a police woman.

[00:00:22] Tina: I think it's five foot five or something.

[00:00:25] Tina: And I was just going to get nowhere near that.

[00:00:29] Tina: Um, but I always fancied that. I mean, I think, that years later, I actually went for a job in, um, a control room at Wakefield. Um, but I didn't get through. But I didn't want to do that. I wanted to be a policewoman.

[00:01:02] Working Hours: It's taken me some time to get to this and to get to putting this and the next few episodes out.

[00:01:26] Working Hours: It costs money to create, produce and host this show. So there are very strong incentives to stop doing this podcast, but there are also some much better reasons to keep on going.

[00:01:44] Working Hours: People who also want to hear from real people. From the people who, like them, do the actual work. Not people selling books and talking abstractly about us all as if we're just data, but actually listening directly to people in or from our city. Hearing from them, from you, about all the differences and similarities in our roles and workplaces. Hearing about the sort of work you do and why you do it.

[00:02:19] Working Hours: Tina was great to hear from and I hope you enjoy listening as much as I did.

[00:02:51] Working Hours: I wanted to get the language right there.

[00:03:02] Working Hours: If you're a Loiner and you're listening to me and you think you might be able to answer questions you already know all the answers to please get in touch to arrange a time to record for this show.

[00:03:35] Working Hours: So, what is it that you're doing now then?

[00:03:56] Tina: Circuit training, hit training, Pilates, you name it. Um, spin and that sort of thing. I also run. I founded Freedom for Girls, period poverty charity. That's quite a bit of a full-time job as well. And as well as that, I volunteer a lot with food banks. Well a lot since COVID anyway, so yeah.

[00:04:25] Working Hours: So let's start with the health and fitness first. Which came first, the health or the fitness? Were you a fitness person who decided to get in to health or?

[00:04:43] Working Hours: Right

[00:04:57] Tina: I've got the gift. I had the gift of the gabs, so people used to tell me I could sell ice to the Eskimos. So I sold a lot of things. I started with sewing machine needles. Would you believe? No. The first job I had was, um, selling steel girders.

[00:05:11] Tina: And then I sold sowing machine parts and needles.

[00:05:33] Tina: I used to like sports, used to like swimming. But over those 25 years I didn't really do a lot and then when I got to 40, I had my third child and I put on like five stone in weight and I hated it because I'd never been really big. So I decided to go to the gym. So we had a gym at the bottom of our street.

[00:06:13] Tina: It was when, working families, tax credit actually helped you rather than hindered you. So they used to offer you lots of things, that they don't offer you now. So I went and did actual, about seven or eight courses at Thomas Danby, what it used to be, in 18 months. So I realized that actually I was quite a practical person, you know. I can't write reports and I can't do degrees, but I can draw, stick men and teach people how to exercise.

[00:07:12] Tina: Um, and this woman came up to me. She said, oh you're a natural, I think you, you, be really good at the community development work and I said, I don't even know what that is. She said, well I'm leaving in six months. I'm going to New Zealand. So I'm going to show you what I do, 'cos I know you can do it.

[00:07:44] Tina: So I actually got her job six months later, and that's when my actual life turned round because, my, my wage doubled overnight from being in a call centre to actually being a community development worker. So yeah, that's how it all started really. And then what happened was after 18 months, 'cos I had three children and a mortgage and it was a funded job and I'd never had a funded job. I thought, oh my gosh, what am I going to do? So I applied for this job in public health as a health improvement practitioner and got that job amazingly enough. I did do NLP and stuff like that to try and, overcome my fears of like, I'm not worthy of this job because I'm... I always think I'm... thought, I'm really, really thick. Because I never got any qualifications.

[00:08:47] Working Hours: Yeah. I'm dyslexic dyspraxia and it didn't like, it wasn't shown up until I was doing my degree as a mature student.

[00:09:14] Tina: No. And I, and I always thought, there was like more. The older I got, the more, I thought there was something wrong with me because I could read stuff and understand it, but not write it.

[00:09:26] Tina: I get this block and I can read something and then only take the first bit.

[00:09:32] Tina: Um, and then it just, everything goes all over the place. And it's, actually to write it down is...

[00:10:15] Tina: But actually would you believe in the end of September, I did sign up for a degree?

[00:10:21] Tina: Bit ridiculous. But, it's a degree in what I've been doing for the last 13 years. So it's health in society.

[00:10:27] Tina: And I am really, really struggling and I really keep... I mean, I've already said I don't want to, after two weeks, I said, I can't do it.

[00:10:51] Working Hours: So, uh, yeah. I can't remember how I did it.

[00:11:08] Working Hours: And I think, you know, I think anyone would normally get quite a lot out of a degree, especially when you're doing it later. So if you do want to continue, I think it's probably worth, you know, getting it looked at and...

[00:11:34] Working Hours: Yep.

[00:11:42] Working Hours: Yeah.

[00:11:48] Working Hours: Yeah. I think Student Services can potentially put some money towards or they can recommend like the educational... But I don't know. It was ages ago when I did it. And the rules change every five seconds, don't they?

[00:11:59] Tina: Exactly and they're all business now aren't they? It's all

[00:12:01] Tina: Just a business. Like massive. We won't go there. We won't go into like, you know, universities are just there to you know, like, get loads of money from students.

[00:12:19] Working Hours: Yeah.

[00:12:21] Tina: I don't know. I, I might look into it.

[00:12:28] Working Hours: That you forgot to update.

[00:12:34] Tina: Um, my, me and my friends used to go walking. Well we still do. We've done it for 18 months. Every morning before work, we'd go out at seven o'clock and walk round the park. And another friend said, oh, I think you've got ADHD. I'll send you a questionnaire. Anyway, she sent me this questionnaire and as we were walking around, I did this questionnaire and it's like, ding! ADHD. I'm not really OCD about anything as in, you know? Um, well, I suppose I sort of am, but yeah, it's quite interesting, isn't it? When you do a questionnaire and something, says ooh! It's almost like, almost like a label, but it's not because it was only a questionnaire. It wasn't like...

[00:13:16] Tina: ...a diagnosis or anything.

[00:13:25] Working Hours: Yeah. It's an interesting diversion.

[00:13:40] Working Hours: Yeah. Well, I mean people's brains are just wired differently, you know, everyone everyone's kind of wired a bit differently.

[00:13:46] Working Hours: So like it must have been a little bit overwhelming to then go into a job in public health. I mean, were you doing sort of health work in the...

[00:13:55] Working Hours: Community development work?

[00:14:20] Tina: I mean; at one point we were... I was, I'd set up over like 21 sessions a week in different places. You know, doing things. And I, and I also did other stuff as well. So I also did, um, so not just doing the fitness stuff. I organized, um, like, um, I suppose, healthy... Health. Like I suppose, unity... community unity days and things like that.

[00:15:14] Tina: And it was about, um, getting men who were, who had low mood into doing physical activity and getting together because they were quite, um, isolated. Um, so that was quite well before its time. And that was a public health funded thing then and that worked really well. And that's, we're going back 13 years, 14 years now. Now it's a massive thing, but then it was like, you know well this is really, really new, but it was a gap.

[00:15:41] Tina: Um, but yes, so going into then public health, it was quite scary because I didn't even know what it was. It took me two years to actually really understand what it was. Because most people in public health have a Masters. I didn't. You know? So you have to have a Master's or, ‘cos I was only a practitioner um, I didn't need a, um, a degree.

[00:16:19] Tina: It was working with organizations, not people.

[00:16:23] Tina: So it's like a step up. You know, community development is talk, you know, it's actually working with people on the ground. Whereas, um, public health is more working with the organizations that are working with the people on the ground. And it took me a long while to sort of understand that.

[00:16:37] Working Hours: Did it feel like just a sort of natural progression to kind of go into that role or was it more like you should really do this, and you kind of got pushed that way or?

[00:17:09] Working Hours: Mhm.

[00:17:34] Working Hours: Yeah

[00:17:41] Working Hours: And as well, you're into, you know, like you say, making the job your own. You were in at a level of a role where you do have that autonomy where they're kind of a like well, we expect you to bring ideas to the table.

[00:18:00] Tina: No. I mean; I did... I was always on the phones. Apart from, I did a little bit of training. I did some fraud authentication training, which was really interesting.

[00:18:09] Tina: You know, like, you know, trying to catch people out who were doing fraudulent applications and stuff.

[00:18:36] Tina: You know, I know my, it's really weird, but I know my own limits. I know what I can do I know what I can't do. And what I can't do I get other people to help me do that.

[00:18:45] Tina: And, empower them to do it because actually I can't. I'm rubbish, you know, at somethings. And I understand that. It doesn't bother me, whereas other people would be like, I think and that's my, you know, that's almost like I just don't have time to do it. I just need somebody else to help me.

[00:19:01] Tina: And so, yeah. And I think it's so, you know, and that is like a good quality 'cos, you know, you need to work together to do stuff, to get things done. You can't do it all on your own.

[00:19:17] Working Hours: We should cover COVID and we should cover the lock down. If you want to talk about Freedom for Girls during this as well, feel free to bring that up

[00:19:22] Working Hours: ...even though we've not really got into it yet. What was the lockdown like for you and what happened? Was it just a matter of stopping everything, waiting and then seeing, okay, well we're not necessarily going to open in a week, so we have to change all our plans? Like, how did it go for you?

[00:20:23] Tina: I was doing all that anyway and then... So I was always out. I wasn't, you know, everybody else in public health was trapped in to their little offices but I was out and about, and I just thought, oh gosh, I need to do some... you know, this is really bad.

[00:20:57] Tina: I don't know if you remember about last August, September time when, all the kids went back to school? So we had a testing centre down there and it was just manic because everybody who came back to school with a cough, was queuing outside Mandela centre. We had children, 50 people a day wanting to be tested because they wouldn't let 'em back to school.

[00:21:42] Working Hours: Yeah. Yeah Yeah.

[00:21:51] Tina: So, it was really, really difficult. You know, people have been on furlough. It was just awful. And then, so we went, we ramped up to delivering 2000 packs a month, but we have to do that differently because obviously there's nowhere open. So all the organizations have retract... retracted, that we normally deliver to.

[00:22:34] Tina: And what we did is we ended up finding people in communities who could deliver to their communities. So we would deliver like, I don't know, 80 packs to somebody in the Swahili community. Um, and they, that, that lady then would deliver, you know, ring up all her friends and say, I've got some pads.

[00:22:53] Tina: Either come and collect them from the end of my drive or I'll drop them off at the end of yours.

[00:22:58] Tina: So it became a very much everybody working together. Because your periods, don't stop in pandemics, unfortunately.

[00:23:25] Tina: Parents didn't have any money. So, I thought, right, these kids need stuff to do. So put a thi... like a call out on Facebook, to some different Facebook pages and said, oh, I'm doing a collection for kids who need something to do. You know, activity parks. 'Because that was also what had happened with the people who I was delivering the packs to. They're saying we've got kids here that have got nothing to do. They're pulling their hair out, we can't go out der-der-duh Um, so, um, I managed to, oh it was ridiculous, in four days, get about 10,000 items.

[00:24:00] Tina: Um, and remember like last year, last, last year it was really hot and, you know, all through summer wasn't it? So I went to my friend's front garden, um, and we've got all these toys and activity packs out and I had a list of loads and loads of kids. You know, their gender and their age and put packs of stuff together. Um, and then delivered them all out. So, yeah, that was a bit of a why the heck have I done that? But I did. You know when you... But then as those people say, well, you know they... It's all right, saying, I'll go on the zoom to do, you know, to do, your work or your classroom work.

[00:24:51] Tina: So a lot of people are culturally diverse in, where I work. In the inner east. So I managed to get every week, lots of cultural, cultural food and deliver it out to different people as well. As well as the pads, as well as the activity packs. Um, so yeah, it was, it was mad, it was mad. And then. Um, somebody rang me up and said, so about a year before COVID hit, somebody rang me up and said Tina, I've got 10,000 brand new school uniform sweatshirts from Marks and Spencer’s in a warehouse.

[00:25:26] Working Hours: Never thought were I'd put 'em

[00:25:39] Working Hours: God.

[00:25:41] Tina: But the... I, you know... I'm thinking right, they need to be on kids' backs, they were all brand new

[00:25:45] Tina: All different colours, all different sizes. So I picked up the first four pallet loads. I'm like, oh my gosh, what am I going to do? So I rang up the council, because, I work in the council and said, and they had a big, um, warehouse where they were doing all the food parcels for all the, you know, the clinically vulnerable. Where they were delivering packs out, food packs

[00:26:25] Tina: We borrowed a load of racking. We've got a load, um, we got some people together, some drivers and they brought them all back for me. Um, and yeah, we got them out 10,000 items. Which was really good. And again, you know, that's partnership working, isn't it? Networking, knowing people. If I don't know anybody I'll know somebody who does know.

[00:26:46] Tina: Well, I suppose it'll look good on the council as well, because they were part of it. And then we, and, you know, through lockdown the things I've done a lot of, um, um, so around with the, round the period poverty and around the activity packs and the sweatshirts. We've had quite a lot of publicity, you know, saying, this is what, this is a positive thing that's happening.

[00:27:06] Tina: Um, so that's what I did. And I also did exercise in my street as well 'cos I was like, you know, at the beginning, when it was really nice weather, I just thought I'm going to go out in the street. So my daughter-in-law's got, um, she had a car with a really good stereo. So I messaged all m, my neighbours and said, right, I'm going to do some exercise.

[00:27:33] Working Hours: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:27:43] Working Hours: Yeah.

[00:27:50] Working Hours: Yeah. I mean did you... like were you working more or working less through lockdown?

[00:27:54] Working Hours: Sounds like you were working more.

[00:27:55] Tina: I was working 70 hours a week. Every day, every single day, I had something to do something to pick up. And then I realized that people, you know, I mean, it was great because at the time with the charity shops all closed and everything, people had loads of stuff they didn't want.

[00:28:11] Tina: You know and as I said, you know, I said to everybody, you know, make sure what you giving me, you would use yourself.

[00:28:38] Tina: I was doing that. I was doing the period products. At one point with Freedom for Girls we were running really, really low on period products because there weren't, they couldn't get enough in. They were made, I think they're made in Eastern Europe somewhere. So there was a little bit of, uh, an issue getting enough on the shelves.

[00:29:18] Tina: Um, so yeah, so all our stocks went really down, but then there was like, you know, went from 500 packs a month to 2000 packs a month. So we were really struggling at one point, but we got through it. We, you know, we, we, there was one of our other period, uh, poverty charities sort of came to our rescue. So that was really good.

[00:30:02] Working Hours: So was that just a matter of getting on with it or was it like, oh God, I've got to work all the hours that there are, or?

[00:30:19] Tina: People need food. People need things. People need period products, people need, you know, help. You know, and I can do that and that's what I did, and you know, I always put myself in other people's shoes and think, well, actually, you know, I've, you know, not having anything for your kids, not even knowing where your next food's coming from. You know, anything like that.

[00:30:44] Working Hours: Mmm.

[00:30:48] Working Hours: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:31:30] Tina: So I was doing it on zero, zero carbon.

[00:31:36] Tina: So, that, I mean, yeah. I think if I'd have had my car, it wouldn't have lasted, but because I had this van it, it really, it was just one of those things, um, that really helped.

[00:31:49] Tina: Still does today because I'm still using it. Um, which has been amazing, you know, and it was a really good opportunity. And it's like every day, I mean, I've done.

[00:32:05] Working Hours: Yeah.

[00:32:19] Tina: You know, we, I've managed to get furniture and clothes and that. And, you know, people who've been moved into new flats off the streets and things like that. We managed to get them stuff. I mean, there's a lot of people doing all that stuff, but that's just an add on really. If I can help people. The amount of them, uh, uh, house clearances I've done is just ridiculous.

[00:32:48] Working Hours: Right.

[00:32:59] Working Hours: Um,

[00:33:03] Working Hours: So did you? I mean, I want to go down the route of, sort of like valuable lessons from that. I mean, have you? I would imagine being in public health as well, like before we went into lockdown, you'd be seeing a lot of information and, you know, having expectations of where certain things will go and how certain things will happen.

[00:34:00] Tina: Um, I think. Do you know what? Health inequalities have always been there. I've done the job for that long, you know, and like I say, I'm still doing stuff today that I was doing 13 years ago, you know. The, you know, you can live in Armley and you can live 12 years less than you can if you live in Alwoodley. You know, it's the, and the gap is growing, you know. Uh, for your mortality rate, you know, which is not good, really for helping equalities and the wider determinants. Like, you know, so if you think about like, you know, people who were on furlough, um, people were on um zero hours’ contracts um who didn't have any, you know, any money they didn't, you know, um. I mean, even before that people on zero hours’ contracts, people who are on Universal Credit. People have had to wait five weeks for their cash and things like that. You know, people who didn't have any recourse to funds. All those people that are still there before COVID, you know, and it just got worse during COVID.

[00:35:15] Working Hours: Yeah.

[00:35:25] Tina: We just have to do it online. But then what happens when people can't go online because they haven't got, you know, we've got digital exclusion. Massive digital exclusion, you know, people have got smart phones, but they haven't got enough for data.

[00:35:38] Tina: Um, I mean, at one point in like October, November, last year, I managed to give out a hundred and 20 laptops. Through the, through the government scheme, to all the people that I knew that needed them.

[00:35:58] Tina: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:36:04] Working Hours: Um.

[00:36:30] Tina: Um, so I think, um, I think the networking and working together has, has helped because, you know, um, I don't know about your, where you live, but we had like a, a neighbourly COVID WhatsApp group. Now in some communities they're really good. And it's mostly people who are, um, I don't know not you know, working class people, middle-class people who've got that sort of facility. But if you're living in the middle of Harehills and you've got like, you know, 15 people in your street, well, what... you know, who all speak different languages? It's very, very difficult to have that support.

[00:37:12] Tina: Um, I mean, we found that, you know, there was a lot of mental health issues going on with people in culturally diverse communities. 'Cos they were, you know, they were just cut off from everything.

[00:37:21] Tina: They didn't have the money for the phones, they didn't have the money for the data. They didn't, they just had to stay in, you know?

[00:37:28] Tina: Um, and then they didn't how to, you know, claim for things and things like that. So it was very, very, it's very disjointed. You know, the... I think the poor got poorer and the rich got richer basically because the rich people who, who, you know, they weren't going out so they saved loads of money, basically.

[00:37:44] Tina: The poor people were just like, oh my God, where's my money? You know, I worked in like three food banks or I still do. And we were getting like, I mean, even last week we were getting through the door in an hour and a half 90 people. Feeding 422 people. You know, and that's what we were getting through lockdown.

[00:38:21] Working Hours: Um

[00:38:26] Tina: We're talking about the past.

[00:39:02] Working Hours: It's kind of like, oh, well it's not the same. I mean, do you think that that's fair or do you think, like, why isn't it, why isn't it more visible?

[00:39:30] Tina: We always get that in the media.

[00:39:33] Tina: Um, it's really difficult. And I think is, it makes for. I don't know. Over the last four years since I've been doing, you know, the, um, Freedom for Girls and things like that. It's almost like, uh, you know, it sounds awful, but it's almost like a, it comes in trend and goes out trend, depending.

[00:39:53] Tina: What, what, what, what the actual world situation is in the moment and whether, whether it's, um, something's triggered something off. Do you know what I mean? It's quite, it's quite interesting the way the media work, and it's quite interesting the way the government work as well. When, when they're asked about things like, you know, they totally don't get the question.

[00:40:34] Tina: It is only for a very small minority of people. Actually. It's not, it's quite big, you know, and I suppose it is, is that sort of thing that it's, it's very sad to talk about. Um, but it needs to be almost like turned around into a positive. That actually, you know, people are helping. It's that, you know, the food banks that are helping these people.

[00:41:10] Working Hours: Too much of a downer. Yeah.

[00:41:15] Working Hours: Yeah, but it's not... There's no, there's no viscera, is there? They're not. There's not bodies on the floor that they can go...

[00:41:44] Working Hours: Mmm.

[00:41:55] Working Hours: Mmm.

[00:42:27] Working Hours: Yeah.

[00:42:52] Tina: I'm in a HMO, which is like a, you know, a massive, it's like a, what's it called? I can't remember how it would be... It's um, lots of people who live together.

[00:43:03] Tina: Um, so you know, like multiple occupancy, so lots of...

[00:43:07] Tina: You know, and, and there's nowhere to go and, you know, I, my job's gone because, because of COVID. You know, all the, all the people who were doing cash in hand work, no-one... You know, like if you think about in Leeds and Cross, Cross Green all the warehouses and things like that. People were doing jobs in there, they all went and they were all zero hours’ contracts or, you know, cash in hand. You'd see them all.

[00:43:28] Tina: Absolutely. Yeah. Again, I keep coming back to the, you know, the women fleeing domestic violence, they flee with nothing, you know. Just with the clothes they're standing in, you know, women coming out of prison, things like that. They've got nowhere to go. They've got nothing, you know, no money.

[00:43:57] Working Hours: Do you think we should get into Freedom for Girls then at this point?

[00:44:01] Working Hours: Do you want to take us through the story of that? How you started it and how long it's been going, where you got into it? Yeah?

[00:44:31] Tina: Um, she worked in public health as well, and my kids were growing up and I said, oh yeah, I'll come and... Uh, you know, she's says, oh will you come with me and I said, yeah, yeah, I'll come with you. Like you do. I just thought about for, for about a millisecond and thought, oh yeah, never done that before, never been to Africa. Thinking, oh my God, what have I done?

[00:45:08] Tina: This, you know, I'm bored, it doesn't float my boat. So I looked around, and I loved the people and I loved the country, and I looked around and I, and, and, um, at different projects to do. And then, 'cos I was going to do something with sport and physical activity. Um, you know, I raised some money for, um, to benefit a football pitch in a school and the managed to get some uniform, uniforms. Some football boots and football kit, people had donated to me.

[00:45:55] Tina: And I remember back when I was 11 years old and I started my period on French exchange trip and um, I was going, you know, I was going to France. I was 11. I didn't speak French. And then. Um, my French exchange, it was a boy and he had three brothers and I just spent the week, you know, using toilet paper, sleeping on the floor because I didn't want to ruin the bedsheet.

[00:46:33] Tina: So I, um, came back from a visit in Kenya and got, thought right, this is what I'm going to do. Looked around at different models of work and got my friends together one Saturday afternoon. And said right, we're going to make period products out of sheets and towels. And so I've got them all in a church hall, my community development coming alive again.

[00:47:15] Working Hours: Mmm.

[00:47:22] Tina: And you have to keep, you know, keep supplying them.

[00:47:26] Tina: Um, and I also realized that, um, they had no information around menstrual health management. So no education on that, apart from the science thing. And most girls didn't even get to, um, far... As far in school to actually learn about that. So a lot of them dropped out.

[00:48:10] Tina: And at first, what I did is I ordered some just to see what they were like. So I went out there and then in between that time, um, I'd put what we've done on Facebook and said what I wanted to do. Um, I mean, I hadn't even thought of the name Freedom for Girls, I just thought I'm just going to work on this myself as a small project.

[00:48:52] Tina: So I applied for like, it was about five grand or something to set up a project.

[00:49:17] Tina: So that I sort of like, I ordered some... We ordered some sewing machines and some material. Um, we realized that, um, we can't do that death by PowerPoint in the middle of nowhere. So we actually, what we did is with our education materials, we blew them up into like, um, sort of poster size, um, made out of, um, banner material. So we could just put them on, you know, um, black boards and things like that.

[00:50:00] Working Hours: Mmm.

[00:50:32] Tina: She said, nobody's shuffling. All the girls used to shuffle around 'cos they had a rag between their legs. You know?

[00:50:37] Tina: No-one's worried. They're more worried about what's, what's happening down there, than what's happening on, you know, in

[00:50:45] Tina: ...class. You know. So they weren't able you know, even if the did go a lot of girls sleeping with men to get money to buy pads, so they can go to school because they realize that education is the key.

[00:51:18] Tina: I've got quite a good, um, credit card, the size of a mortgage, the amount of times I've been over there. And, um, so in 2017, um, a colleague of mine rang me up and said, oh Tina, I know what you're doing in, Kenya. It's really good. I've got five girls here with my school. Um, and they are missing school every month because they're, you know, they've got, uh, an issue with buying pads. You know, or one of them. One of the girls doesn't even know that she's having a period.

[00:51:56] Working Hours: Mmm.

[00:52:14] Tina: And obviously that was really heart rending. It was awful really; you know? Um, and I met the girls actually, and I said that, this is, you know, afterwards. So from that little interview with Radio Leeds, I then, it then got onto the BBC news website and then it got into the Metro and then the whole world's press descended on me.

[00:52:48] Working Hours: Mmm.

[00:52:57] Working Hours: Um,

[00:53:04] Tina: 'Cos then it was like even more people wanted to speak to me. And why... what... So I was trying to make it more positive, really say, well, not positive, just like, because, so there was no, there's no research, there's nothing at all about anything. So, you know, it was a massively new thing, but it was also a big news story as well.

[00:53:27] Tina: It was really, um, and so I put it down to, you know, at the time I think it was one, you know the... Remember I Daniel Blake?

[00:53:38] Tina: So, yeah, so the girl went to the food bank and she asked for period products and there wasn't anybody, any.

[00:53:46] Tina: Because nobody thought...

[00:53:48] Tina: People... There was no hygiene, poverty. It was just food poverty. But actually it wasn't. It's always been hygiene poverty. So sorta used my public health fight hat on and said, you know, this is the reason. This is, you know, you have to wait five weeks for Universal Credit, you know, as refugees, there's asylum seekers, people fleeing domestic violence. You know, putting it in context that actually, this is happening here because of this, this, this, and this. You know, and, and girls and the stigma and taboo around periods as well.

[00:54:31] Tina: The day after... And what happened was, the day before I'd, I went on Woman's Hour, I, I messaged my, um, my manage, my manager and the head of Leeds City Council to say, I'm just giving you the heads-up, but I'm going on to Woman's Hour tomorrow and this is what I'm talking about.

[00:54:49] Tina: Anyway, when it happens and when it hit, I got hauled into the office of the Director of Public Health and he went, what do you think you're doing? What do you mean, what do I think I'm doing? He said, there's a process. I said, what do you mean there's a process. What have you done? And I said, what do you mean, what have I done? I said I've done an interview.

[00:55:18] Working Hours: Yeah.

[00:55:26] Working Hours: Well, it wouldn't be good optics.

[00:55:31] Working Hours: Especially when you're on the media circuit. I've just lost my job at...

[00:56:00] Working Hours: I am the organisation.

[00:56:03] Tina: Because I don't think they could believe that, you know, one person could make such an impact in the whole wide world. So, so basically I, I, that's what I did. I put period poverty on the map. For a lot of people. You know, so like, Amika George who's, she heard me on Woman's Hour and she ended up doing free periods, and we ended up doing the campaign to get free period products in schools.

[00:56:30] Tina: Um, Celia, um, who runs, Hey Girls, UK.

[00:57:02] Working Hours: Mmm.

[00:57:08] Working Hours: So, have you learned anything about, from... You know, like...

[00:57:15] Tina: No, I haven't.

[00:57:21] Tina: No.

[00:57:25] Tina: Yeah. I mean, this is quite interesting actually. How, how it's, um, how it's manifested into, from, you know, just that little thing in Kenya to actually this organization that we're running today, which is still very small...

[00:57:39] Tina: ...but obviously we're very well known.

[00:58:09] Working Hours: Yeah.

[00:58:13] Working Hours: You mentioned the sustainability and making the period products in Kenya sustainable. I mean, what are you thoughts and opinions, have you learned much about, you know, the, the western disposability and the amount of, amount of products that we go through?

[00:58:31] Working Hours: When that could be altered to be more sustainable.

[00:58:43] Working Hours: Yeah.

[00:58:50] Tina: I mean; we're actually just launching a campaign called Making the Switch. So we, 'cos unfortunately, sustainable products like menstrual cups, washable, reusables, period pants, things like that. They're very expensive.

[00:59:03] Tina: People can't afford them. You know, people who need them every day, they can't afford them.

[00:59:08] Working Hours: And they're higher maintenance as well because you've got to be hygienic with them because you're not just throwing them away. So you've got to...

[00:59:40] Working Hours: Mmm.

[00:59:58] Tina: You know.

[00:59:59] Tina: We've, we've been doing this with pants, um, quite, um, over lockdown and people love them. I mean, I know it sounds a bit weird period pants, but they actually don't leak and they're actually really good. You wouldn't know as a man, but, and I wouldn't know, 'cos I, I started this project and went into the menopause, so I don't, haven't tried all these things, which has been really weird as well, but yeah.

[01:00:31] Working Hours: Mmm.

[01:00:43] Working Hours: And as well, if you're dealing with the poverty issue in the first place, you know, most of those sustainable solutions are all going to be more expensive. So they're going to be more out of reach than the...

[01:00:57] Working Hours: Mmm.

[01:00:59] Working Hours: Yeah.

[01:01:26] Tina: They bleach it all white. Bleach.

[01:01:29] Tina: You know? Um, you know, and they don't have to put what's in them, but there's some nasty things in them, unfortunately. Which is why we need to, you know, like move over to, you know, more sustainable products.

[01:01:46] Tina: Nope. No, that was a, that was a EU derivative that was going to be removed anyway and actually, years ago, most of the supermarkets moved, removed the VAT on them anyway. So it, it, it didn't make an ounce of difference.

[01:02:04] Working Hours: Yeah.

[01:02:14] Working Hours: Mmm.

[01:02:18] Working Hours: Yeah.

[01:02:19] Working Hours: It's essential.

[01:02:35] Working Hours: Mmm.

[01:02:45] Working Hours: Mmm.

[01:03:09] Tina: And people still said, oh you know, we don't know what period poverty is, what even is it? You know, or...

[01:03:14] Tina: ...The new word is a menstrual equity.

[01:03:32] Working Hours: Yeah. But you've got to use language in a way that it sticks in people's brains as well, don't you? In a way that the media can sell it and

[01:03:51] Working Hours: Um, so again, with an assumption, I'm guessing that when you did the media round the majority of people that were coming to interview you were women. You know, being on Women's Hour and so on. I'm guessing there was at least one guy. So what I'm getting towards is like, what, what was it like having that first male journalist go through...

[01:04:12] Working Hours: ...the questions?

[01:04:20] Working Hours: Right.

[01:04:31] Tina: After Woman's Hour, I'd done all, they got in touch with me and said, do you want to do it and I'm like, oh my god. Jeremy Vine. He's s going to pull me to pieces. Anyway, he didn't, he was really good. I said, look, I want, you know, you need to make this interview positive rather than negative. And, you know, it's quite funny because he got really embarrassed actually. And, uh, you know, the first thing I said, you know, thank you, Jeremy, for letting me come and talk about a, you know, really taboo subject. Um, to a man, you know?

[01:05:00] Tina: Um, and then we started talking about something, and then I said, um, I said, 'cos you, I, I sort of researched him and he had two daughters. I said, you've got two daughters. Have they started their periods yet? And have you, have you spoken to them about it? That's not my job. Why? Why Jeremy? Why is that not your job to talk about, you know, per, you know, periods and, and, and break that taboo you need to do that.

[01:05:25] Working Hours: Mmm.

[01:05:51] Working Hours: I think it's partly, you know, because they don't have an example of how, how to react, how to behave... It's that not having a model of how to respond.

[01:06:01] Working Hours: It's kind of like...

[01:06:03] Working Hours: ...however, I respond is my genuine response. I'm not... I'm not performing that response.

[01:06:16] Tina: I had this int... what's the name? Hartley-Brewer? What's her...

[01:06:19] Tina: ...name?

[01:06:20] Tina: Yeah. So basically she decimated me. 'Cos I didn't even know who she was. She was absolutely. Oh, she was horrible. She was absolutely awful.

[01:06:37] Working Hours: Well, there's a lot she can't believe.

[01:06:54] Tina: I just like... She's going there's no such. I said woah, you know, I said well, what about people in, you know, who are homeless or people who've got no recourse to funds. Oh, there's nobody like that. You know? Gah. And then she, the tweets. She tweeted saying, I decimated Tina Leslie on Free, but you know, Freedom for Girls. Oh god. It was just like, and that, you know, the amount of like negative things that, they put about her, rather than me.

[01:07:33] Working Hours: Quite an adventure really from just, oh, I want to do something for myself while I'm here.

[01:07:53] Working Hours: Mmm.

[01:08:14] Tina: But actually you're not because how are you going to eradicate period pov, poverty rather.

[01:08:21] Tina: No. And basically, you know, people say, oh, how're they going to do that? I said they not because actually you need to tackle poverty. So poverty is here. And then you have all the umbrellas, you know, we're just... You know, that's the, that's the umbrella and there's period poverty, food poverty, fuel poverty, digital poverty, whatever, underneath that. Until you tackle the actual poverty issue, you're not going to tackle anything else and that's the issue.

[01:09:06] Tina: Um, so bringing like lots of people together. Um, so yeah, that will be quite interesting. But again, you know, it's like, why don't we bring some of these governments to book that have said they're going to tackle period poverty? And say, actually, what have you done so far? Nothing. You've just said it a little bit. Like, um, yeah, some governments that we know.

[01:09:28] Tina: Yeah. They can just say it they don't have to do it

[01:09:32] Tina: You know? And you know, I think over time you just actually realize it's all hot air.

[01:09:41] Tina: I'd like to know where the two, 250 million pound is, that they pledged to tackle period poverty in the UK

[01:09:49] Tina: ...In 2018. Was it 2019? So we were on the, um, they did a taskforce, you know, they like these taskforces the government. Don't they? So we were on the government taskforce for access.

[01:10:02] Tina: Um, and we had to go down to London, to the Department of Education once a month and talk about access. There was access, there was research. There was, um, something else, can't remember.

[01:10:37] Working Hours: But that's how, that's how poverty works as well though. Isn't it? It's like if you, if you rich, if you're loaded, everything's paid for, for you, you get everything laid on. You go wherever you want to go. Uh, if you're not, you pay for everything everywhere, everything pay for it all. Even to the point of like. You know, if you look, you can tell an area from when they've not got any cash machines that don't charge you.

[01:11:04] Tina: Yeah. Yeah. Well, if you go to Harehills it's right.

[01:11:12] Tina: Yeah. Yeah. Off licenses.

[01:11:17] Tina: Off license, betting shop, off license, betting shop.

[01:11:27] Tina: Well, I don't really... I'm not really political, but yeah.

[01:11:33] Tina: Um, well, no. Not...

[01:11:37] Tina: ...as yet.

[01:11:38] Tina: Brexit. No, because a lot of, um, the stuff we do is not really... I think if we were, we were doing stuff in Europe and things like that, maybe shipping stuff to Europe or doing something like that it maybe effects us. 'Cos I've talked. I've spoken to oth... You know, people who, friends who do a load, a load of like sustainability stuff and, and artist work and things like that who send stuff to Europe and they just can't anymore. Because it's too expensive.

[01:12:13] Working Hours: I mean, just from a Freedom for Girls perspective, I mean, I don't know. I don't know why you would, but you might have numbers on sort of what the manufacturing capacity in the UK is for sanitary products or how many factories we have. Or, you know, like if there's just one factory and that closes down and then we have to get things through Europe and then we can't get them anymore.

[01:12:38] Tina: Yeah.

[01:12:39] Tina: Yeah. You see, it's really interesting that 'cos, so because we get a lot of our stuff donated.

[01:12:45] Tina: We, I mean, like I say, we had, we did have an issue early on last year, even before Brexit you know ju... but that was because of lockdown, not because of. So we've had quite a flow of, you know, period products.

[01:13:04] Working Hours: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:13:15] Working Hours: Mmm.

[01:13:21] Working Hours: Okay. So let's do a little bit on social media. I bet Freedom for Girls has been a massive education in social media for you.

[01:13:30] Working Hours: Or have you not really dealt with it. Have you had other people doing that?

[01:13:43] Working Hours: Yeah.

[01:14:01] Tina: If we, if nobody knows about us. So...

[01:14:04] Tina: You Know, we've set, we set up Twitter, we set up, you know, Facebook, we've got Instagram, we have now a great website that Shona w, um, one of our operations ladies set up and she's brilliant.

[01:14:17] Tina: But we, you know, everything's like blind. We didn't... I didn't even know how to set up a charity. Do you know what I mean?

[01:14:23] Working Hours: Mmm.

[01:14:31] Working Hours: Yeah.

[01:14:36] Working Hours: Yeah, and I bet you were getting donations and stuff. While, you know, because you were on the news, people will be sending you things or offers or, whatever.

[01:14:52] Working Hours: Yeah.

[01:15:01] Working Hours: Mmm.

[01:15:11] Working Hours: Mmm.

[01:15:25] Tina: And we do Uganda now and also within the UK as well.

[01:15:28] Tina: We, you know, people can't do things for nothing.

[01:15:32] Tina: For long, because...

[01:15:33] Tina: ...you just lose them. You know, and it's, it's a really big issue. That needs addressing. So...

[01:15:51] Tina: I mean, we've had people shaving their 'airs, hair off and jumping outta planes for us and stuff, which has been great. Um, but yeah, social media is your shop window, isn't it? People now don't even look at your website. They just look at your Instagram posts or your...

[01:16:05] Tina: Facebook posts about, you know, and we are very much a grassroots organization.

[01:16:21] Working Hours: Mmm.

[01:16:24] Working Hours: Mmm.

[01:16:28] Tina: I've actually got signed, a signed certificate by The Queen over there.

[01:16:37] Tina: It's in here. Oh. Oh my gosh.

[01:16:42] Working Hours: Very nice.

[01:16:44] Tina: And then a signed, a signed thing by The Queen.

[01:16:52] Tina: So yeah, all very nice. But, um, you know, for her to actually acknowledge that there is period poverty is quite interesting. Being 94 years old. But yeah. And, and also I think, um, Amika George, who set up Free Periods and a couple of other people, they got MBEs. But I, I, you know, I was more, I was happy that the charity, had got that. You know, 'cos we, it shows that... and then we got a special er, dispensation for, uh, our work over COVID as well.

[01:17:26] Tina: So yeah.

[01:17:34] Tina: Yeah. It did, yeah. We had, we had a bit of a celebration event, which was nice.

[01:17:38] Tina: Um, and, yeah, we had the press there and things like that. Because, it's not about us. It's about the people we represent. And I've always said that. It's not about me.

[01:17:51] Working Hours: But that's the difficult thing. We love to personify things. And if it's just, you know, like, and you know, it from social media as well, you know, like the posts with people and faces got the most traction and because we want to, we want to engage with other people.

[01:18:13] Tina: Yeah.

[01:18:18] Tina: Clearly, yeah.

[01:18:22] Tina: No. I don't want to do it either.

[01:18:24] Tina: Yeah. I know it's really hard, especially in lockdown when you couldn't buy any blooming makeup.

[01:18:34] Tina: Um, but yeah, it was quite funny. Um, but yeah, yeah, you're right. It's um, you know, 'cos I, I asked the, you know, because we've got a bit of a team, I go, say right, who wants to do, you know, media? No I'm not doing it. I'm not doing it.

[01:19:02] Working Hours: Yeah.

[01:19:06] Tina: And because I, at first I was like, oh my gosh, what am I going to say? You know?

[01:19:11] Tina: Yeah... But actually you don't need to, because you are just telling the news, you know.

[01:19:19] Tina: You have to, yeah. The... That was quite interesting. I remember sat next to somebody at work in when I was in public health and said to them. I said, right, I'm on Woman's Hour tomorrow, what do you suggest? What do you, what do you suggest? You know, have you got any tips for me? She said just stick to three things. Just three things and you'll be fine. Um, and then it was really funny 'cos 'bout a week, late, another a week later, I was sat next to this guy and on the train, I was going to London.

[01:19:47] Tina: Sat on the train and we, we got chatting and I said, oh, I'm, you know, I'm from Freedom for Girls and stuff like that.

[01:19:59] Tina: She told me to do it.

[01:20:06] Working Hours: Oh nice.

[01:20:09] Tina: Okay, then. So, yeah. So I must've done sommat right. But I just said it from the heart, do you know what I mean?

[01:20:22] Tina: Yeah.

[01:20:25] Working Hours: Um, okay, so we've covered quite a lot. I mean I was going to ask you questions about sort of what you'd change but I think I'm going to go straight into UBI. So, Universal Basic Income. If there was a Universal Basic Income, if you were paid, you know, enough money to live on. And I expect to know the answer to this question. Would you still work is the first part of the question?

[01:20:51] Working Hours: Yeah. Yeah.

[01:20:55] Working Hours: You'd get bored otherwise wouldn't you?

[01:21:14] Working Hours: Just for anyone listening, that was a big ream of papers, that Tina is waving at me.

[01:21:32] Tina: And then it's like, excuse me, can you just nip to do this for me? No, I haven't got time. It's like, ooh, well, I've done this, this and this for you, you know? Uh, anyway.

[01:21:45] Tina: Do you know what?

[01:21:49] Tina: Yeah. Yeah. Or they will make an excuse. Yeah. Oh, I fell asleep. I'm sorry. I can't do it. I'm like, well, okay then that's fine. It is very difficult because it really pisses me off. Excuse my language, I don't know if I can swear, but that's but yes, it is. It really bugs me that actually I've, you know, I run around for you and you can't do one thing for me? But anyway...

[01:22:12] Tina: It is what it is.

[01:22:29] Working Hours: Mmm.

[01:22:30] Tina: And good on her, you know? I think it's really great. I know a few of my friends want to do that, just, you know, up and sell everything up and go on the road.

[01:22:39] Tina: Um, but yeah. No I couldn't do that.

[01:22:47] Tina: Especially in this weather.

[01:22:49] Tina: I know exactly. I mean, you know, they've all got really posh, you know, camper vans with like heating and stuff, but, you know?

[01:22:56] Tina: That's what they want to do that's what they want to do. But I, you know, I, I just, I think I've been put on this earth to help people and that's what, you know, and, and that's what I like doing. You know? And I'm passionate about things and that's what I'll do.

[01:23:22] Tina: And sometimes, you know, some people, I mean, somebody said to me, um, you know, what did they say? You know, sometimes people are, are cash rich and time poor.

[01:23:34] Tina: Um, she said, but you know, you're time, you know, you're, you're time rich, well, I'm not time rich. But yeah. As in I will help, go out my way and help people,

[01:23:43] Tina: You know? Um, and I will, because that's what I'm like.

[01:24:11] Working Hours: Yeah.

[01:24:19] Working Hours: 90 minutes.

[01:24:28] Working Hours: So do you see yourself retiring? Do you think you'll ever retire or will it just be like...? Or do you think you'll even slow down? I was going to say, well, you'd just be slowing down, but...

[01:24:45] Tina: So, you know, I, I'm not, you know. I've got another 10 years before I have to retire, fortunately. So, yeah. Um, so no I don't think. I mean unless I win the lottery. That would be quite nice. And then still I'd probably just still do stuff.

[01:25:04] Tina: Yeah. Yeah. I would. I probably would, yeah.

[01:25:10] Tina: Exactly. Yeah. I mean, you know, everybody, you know aspires to win the lottery, but you don't really need a lot of money in this life. When you get, when you go places like Kenya and you see people who don't have anything, you know, even less than. I mean, you see people here with nothing.

[01:25:51] Tina: You know; they just have a mat. You just think why have all these people got so much money you don't need all this money. You know, you just do not need all this money. It's ridiculous. Uh.

[01:26:15] Tina: Um, and she, she asked me to go and pick up on a Kenyan beach, um, some Coca-Cola, you know, the plastic red things. So I picked up about, in about 200 yards, I picked up about 50 just Coca-Cola tops she, she wants to do a project.

[01:26:43] Working Hours: You can't go anywhere in the world. Like, there's no unspoiled place now.

[01:26:48] Working Hours: You can go. You know, you go anywhere and you'll find some crisp packet or a...

[01:27:11] Working Hours: Yeah.

[01:27:18] Working Hours: Mmm.

[01:27:19] Working Hours: The fact that, you know like,

[01:27:24] Tina: Why can a developing country ban the plastic bag? When they did it they were the first ones, weren't they? It's amazing the difference. It's 'cos too many, you know, too many people make too much money out of them. That's what the problem is.

[01:27:48] Working Hours: And the sort of, you know, we're not even talking about an outright ban of all single use plastic or anything like that. You know, there's a token of like, oh, it'll be the straws or whatever, because they make it so hard just to actually...

[01:28:18] Tina: Yeah. It is just mad, yeah. I mean, it's like baby wipes, nappies and, you know, period products and, you know, Q-tips and all that sort of stuff, you know, they should have all been banned years ago or just had a, an organic version of them

[01:28:35] Tina: They made too much money out of one use plastics that's the problem is the... I always think sometimes nowadays we're living in a James Bond film. You know, like somebody is about to tell, you know, like, I don't know whether it be Chinese Prime Minister or pew, you know, Putin is going to take over the world soon, you know. You know? It feels more and more, the older you get, the more and more cynical you get and the more and more you think we're just living in a James Bond, film now, it's all a load of...

[01:29:10] Tina: Or you know, or he's going to come along and save us or somebody is, I hope.

[01:29:33] Tina: No, I think I've covered everything. I think I've covered most things that we want to talk about, you know, Freedom for Girls, which is...

[01:29:42] Tina: ...you know, passionate. My job, physical activity, you know, um, you know, I love that, I love, you know, teaching people.

[01:29:59] Working Hours: But I mean, if you could have, I mean, it is... Stick to the three things. But if you could have anything, you know, you work any way you wanted it. What would be like the three things that you would change

[01:30:13] Working Hours: Mmm.

[01:30:15] Working Hours: Would it be more hours in the day?

[01:30:20] Tina: Err. No I do think I need more hours in the day because I'd just fill them.

[01:30:27] Tina: I would change the way, I think people more upstream need to listen to the people who are on the ground. I think that would change. I would definitely change the upstream,

[01:30:53] Working Hours: Well, they generally don't talk to each other

[01:31:02] Tina: Sometimes it's a totally different way of listening to people. I wish that, um, public health would recognize that period poverty is a public health issue because they've never actually done that. And I think that's because if they admit there's an issue, they have to then sort it out. So it's left to grassroots organizations like us to do that.

[01:31:33] Working Hours: Mmm.

[01:31:45] Working Hours: Well, that's good.

[01:31:55] Working Hours: Cool. Well, thank you very much for your time. Um, is there anything, like, I will put all the links and everything for Freedom to Girls and anything else. I mean, is there anything that you want to flag up any?

[01:32:11] Tina: You can donate on the website; I think that's the best way to do there's just a donate button on the website. 'Cos you know, there's things, tags um, pins to Facebook and Twitter and things like that. Yeah, it's best through the website.

[01:32:24] Tina: It's all on, it's all on the social medias. But yeah, if you could share that, that will be lovely.

[01:32:36] Working Hours: Thank you again to Tina for being my guest and also just for everything she does. Thank you again all my guests and thanks to you Bugger Lugs for listening to this. Thank you as well for 500 downloads and thank you to my first Patreon supporter.

[01:33:10] Working Hours: So if you're listening to this then I assume that you have some connection to Leeds, like living here or being from here. If you're that person in Leeds or from Leeds and you haven't done a record for this yet send me a message now and let's record your Working Hours session. Email this podcast workinghourspod@western-studios.com with a short bio and some suggestions of your availability or just send me your feedback, questions, comments and queries.

[01:33:48] Working Hours: What is your experience? How do you feel about work? What do you like and not like? What do you do Leeds?

[01:33:58] Working Hours: Next time on Working Hours I will be talking to a youth worker. Come back tomorrow for that same Leeds channel.