In this compelling episode of the Pivot Podcast, we dive into the emerging importance of lay leadership in today's church. Our guest, Faith+Lead’s School for Lay Ministry alum Vicki Elfers, shares her inspiring journey from behind-the-scenes church secretary to dynamic lay minister, now preaching, leading Bible studies, and even conducting funerals.

Hosts Rev. Dr. Dwight Zscheile and Dr. Alicia Granholm explore how Vicki's story exemplifies a crucial pivot in church leadership—from clergy-led to lay-led, clergy-supported ministry. They discuss practical ways to identify and nurture lay leaders, the impact of leadership training programs, and how embracing lay leadership can breathe new life into congregations.

Whether you're a church leader seeking to empower your congregation or a lay person sensing a call to deeper involvement, this episode offers valuable insights on unleashing the potential of lay leadership for a vibrant, sustainable church future.

Show links:

• Faith+Lead School for Lay Ministry
• NY Metropolitan Synod’s Synodical Deacon program
• Stephen Ministries
• Tres Dias International community

Watch this episode on YouTube: https://youtu.be/g3E1OVO0vnw

Mentioned in this episode:

Register for Faith+Lead's School for Lay Ministry Starting May 17th!

Learn more and register at faithlead.org/schoolforlay.

May 2025 School for Lay Ministry Cohort

Dwight: You know, it's so critical to have that, um, that sense of somebody seeing in you a possibility or a call and nudging it along. So I think, you know, we have sometimes the internal sense of call that the Holy Spirit speaks to us, but it really does have to be validated and discerned in the community. And I think one of the sacred responsibilities of those who are in leadership, whether they be clergy or lay leaders in whatever forms in the church, Um, is to really be on the lookout for how the Holy Spirit is stirring in people's lives, and to be a kind of talent scout in that sense. Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Pivot podcast, where we explore how to follow God into a faithful future by equipping all God's people to love and lead in the way of Jesus. I'm Dwight Zscheile, and I'm joined today by Alicia Granholm.

Alicia: Hello. If you are unfamiliar with what we do at pivot, we believe that God is inviting the church to make four key pivots in the 21st century, and they are a pivot in posture from trying to fix a church to more of a posture of listening and curiosity of where God is leading today. A pivot in focus from membership to discipleship. A pivot in structure from a one size fits all model for the church, to one that's more of a mixed ecology and much more contextually based, and a pivot in leadership from clergy led and lay supported to lay led and clergy supported leadership and ministry today.

Dwight: That's right, Alicia, which is why we are so excited to welcome to Pivot, Vicki Elfers. Vicki is a lay leader who recently completed Faith Lead School for Lay Ministry and is stepping into a leadership role in her congregation. And her journey and experience speaks directly to the need that we're seeing for a pivot in leadership in the church. This shift from primarily clergy led, lay supported, where clergy are expected to primarily do the ministry for people to a primarily lay led, clergy supported ministry, where Clergy's role is equipping and supporting the ministry of the whole body of Christ. And we're seeing leaders being raised up by the Holy Spirit in all kinds of places to step into new roles. So welcome, Vicki.

Alicia: We're so happy to have you, Vicki. Vicki, can you start by sharing a little bit with us about your faith journey and what led you to consider taking on a leadership role in your congregation.

Vicki: Be honest with you, I never really saw myself as a leader. Um, as a child, I was painfully shy and extremely quiet, and while I probably was never considered a follower, I never thought of myself as a leader. Um, but 24 years ago, I took a position at our church as the church secretary. Um, I had taken seven years off to raise our two daughters and wasn't quite sure where I would fit back into the workforce when this job became available, and I knew it would give me the flexibility I needed to be there for my daughters. And I jumped at it. And what I soon learned was that I loved being part of the church. I loved being part of the background and and the inner workings of of getting everything to happen. Um, and over the years, um, I served on many, many committees in the church. I think I probably served on almost every one of them. Um, but I found myself being drawn to worship. Um, so I joined as a communion assistant and as a, um, altar guild person. And I really loved doing that. And, um, my journey really changed about 14 years ago. I attended a three day retreat weekend, um, where I clearly heard God saying to me, let go of your fear and anxiety and follow me. And, um, it took a while for me to do it, but I slowly did. And right around that time, uh, we had a new pastor join our church. Uh, we had had a pastor that I worked for for about eight years. Um, he retired. We had three years of interim. And then this younger pastor came in and he was such a blessing. He encouraged me so much to step out in faith and to look for avenues as to how I could, uh, support and work within the church. Um, in 2014, I took the diaconate classes, which are now known as the growing in Faith, which is a two year program of training. Uh, after that, um, I became a Stephen Ministry leader in our church. I brought that ministry into our church. Um, and I'm still overseeing that ministry. Um, I did the requirements, uh, required by our synod, the New York Metropolitan Synod, um, to be set apart as what they call a synodical deacon. It's not, um, it's not a deacon like the national church recognizes, but I'm recognized as a deacon within the New York Metropolitan Synod, um, which just really allows me to serve and, and and I guess it was to also be a leader. Um, from there, um, in 2018, I finished a three year study of um training, which was done by the Roman Catholic Church, and I was commissioned as a spiritual director. Um, I've also become very involved in being a spiritual advisor, um, to the three day community that I, um, first heard God speak to me at, uh, which is called Tres Dias. And I work on many of their retreat weekends. Um, and then five years ago, uh, pastor who's associated with my church saw some skills and gifts in me and asked me if I would be interested in preaching at churches who couldn't find pastoral coverage on a Sunday morning. And I started doing that. And that has been an amazing part of my spiritual journey. Um, I have been very blessed that the senior pastor, our associate pastor, and our Latino pastor at my church have been very encouraging and supportive to me. Um, but honestly, I could never have imagined myself being in this type of a leadership role. Um, all those years ago. But I kept feeling the Holy Spirit nudging me to step out in faith. And it's it's been an amazing journey so far. And I'm also really interested to see where the Holy Spirit's going to take me from here.

Dwight: So, Vicki, you've been a participant in our School for Lay ministry, which we've created to help train people and precisely your kind of situation. Um, can you talk about your experience in that, that school for lay ministry?

Vicki: I signed up for the course. It, um, it sounded very intriguing to me, and it sounded like something that would fit in to what I was experiencing at the time. And when I logged in to the first class, I felt like I was home. Um, to meet all of the other people that were taking the course in the cohort from around the United States. I just felt this bond of that we were just all laypeople just looking for how we could serve God in his church. And, um, the courses, the each of the classes I found so interesting. I looked forward each week to to logging in and being part of it. And, um, the, the leader of the of the class, uh, Reverend Marianne, she was so encouraging about how important lay people, um, are and in their ministry to the church that, um, it was just an amazing time for me that whole year, um, really was a year of growth for me and really a way for me to get confidence in, in what I was doing and what God was leading me to do.

Alicia: Vicki, how do you how have you seen your understanding of lay leadership evolve, maybe even just throughout your, you know, experience within the church? And then also in your experience with the school for lay ministry?

Vicki: I think years ago, you know, I looked at a lay leader as, you know, somebody who, you know, joined a committee, you know, you were on special events or you were on the, you know, the worship and Music committee or, you know, whatever social ministry. And and I did all of those things, but never really saw that as, as leadership. Um, but, you know, now, after all those years, you know, looking back, I realize how important that was for all. And it still is for all of these people to bring their gifts and their talents to the church and and to use it to be part of, of, of doing what church is supposed to do in the world and, and get out the message of the gospel. And, um, and again, in my particular context, I have been so blessed that, you know, the the clergy at my church has always made the laypeople feel like they were important, that they were valued and needed in order to make ministry happen.

Dwight: So I'd love to hear a little more about that. How, um, leaders, both clergy and lay work together in your ministry context. Tell us a little bit about about your church and and where it's located. And then what does the collaboration look like that you're experiencing now?

Vicki: We're located, as I said, in the New York Metropolitan Synod. Um, our church is in Deer Park, New York. Where about in the middle of Long Island. Um, so we've we've been a church that's been around since the 60s. Um, we're also a church that's had a long history of pastors. Um, who have stayed for long periods of time. Uh, the first pastor was there for 13 years. The next pastor was there for 15 years. And and now we're going on our 14th year with the current pastor that we have. Um, so it always has been a church known that the, the pastor did everything. Um, especially our first two pastors. Um, you know, that was how pastors were trained back then. But our new, younger pastor is more about lifting up everybody in the church and and making people, um, feel valued. Um, so my role within the church has changed so much. Um, and especially within the last, um, you know, 6 to 9 months. Um, our associate pastor, um, who was working part time, retired. And as we know, there were no pastors out there to fill her position. And, um, so what ended up happening was that between myself and the the council leadership and our personnel committee and the pastor all working together, um, we kind of put together this model of where I could be promoted into this position of lay assistant to the pastor, and where my role could expand beyond just working in the church office and being a parish administrator and making sure that things went smoothly to me, being now part of of making worship happen. Um, I currently I preach once a month at our Sunday services. I'm leading Wednesday night Bible studies on zoom. I co-lead with our senior pastor. Um, uh, our Saturday morning, uh, twice a month Bible study. Uh, this past spring, I helped the pastor run a two day adult retreat. Um, I have been permitted to do funerals on my own, especially when the pastor is out of town. And, um, I have also seen my ministry to the other churches in the especially on the Long Island area where pastors where they don't have pastors. Um, I usually try to help them at least once or twice a month by leading worship services there. Um, but again, I, you know, like I've been saying, I could have never imagined this. And, um, but I really, you know, credit the pastor and the leadership of my church to be forward thinking and to, to be able to to think outside of the box.

Alicia: I love that, Vicki. Vicki, how um, how would you say that your congregation has responded to your increased involvement and leadership and maybe as well, if you could speak to how other congregations have responded to it?

Vicki: I actually was blown away. Um, everybody, you know, um, has fully embraced me in my new role. Um, I get very positive feedback when I'm preaching. Um, you know, one of the big things that our associate pastor had done was she formed a ministry for our seniors. Um, whereby they meet every week, they go on trips, they go to see plays and movies and, and have fellowship and special parties at the church. And that group really was concerned that, um, that they would be forgotten once the associate pastor left. And in September, I, um, spearheaded getting that group back going again. Um, put a committee together of people that would, um, you know, come up with ideas of things to do. And I, again, have been blown away at how well they have received me and how grateful they are that the church still values them and sees them as important. And, um, so, um, you know, the interesting thing, um, you know, and I was just sharing this the other day, um, with our Latino pastor is that it's interesting because there are times that I feel like I'm in a bubble in my own congregation since I'm so well received, and when I go to other congregations to preach, I, um, I'm very well received because they're so grateful that they can have worship on Sunday morning because I'm there. Um, it has been a little difficult to run into some pastors who are not right there yet, and they're not quite sure that this should be a ministry that a lay person is doing. Um, you know, but, um, I have seen some shifts in that, you know. Um, I see that people are slowly becoming more open, um, to lay people having more of a responsibility, especially in the worship area.

Dwight: So tell us a little bit more about how you've applied some of the things you learned in the school for lay ministry. What are some takeaways and how have you put them into practice?

Vicki: You know, one of the things that I really, really loved about the class was that we began, you know, every day, uh, you know, every class period with dwelling in the word, um, and, you know, I had a devotional practice before that, but I felt like that just deepened my devotional practice every day. Um, you know, so I really and and also listening to the other classmates and them sharing their devotional practices have just really deepened my own as well. Um, I really think that a lot of the classes that they taught, that they taught a class on preaching and a class on how to preach at a funeral, and all of those have been extremely practical in in how I prepare not only my sermons, but I've have done a couple of funerals and how to prepare the proper message to give to people in that, you know, that struggle that they're going through at that time. Um, so I, you know, I really felt like a lot of the class was very practical knowledge. Um, you know, I look back at the Diakonia course and again, that was great information. But, you know, sometimes learning about the history of the church isn't as practical as as learning as how to apply that history now to what you're doing. And, um, you know, so, um, and one of the things that I really felt like I got from the class was that I got the confidence to come back to my pastor and say, I know I can run a Bible study on Wednesday nights. I know I can do the research and I can find a study. And I started a year ago, and I have about 15 faithful participants who sign into zoom every Wednesday night. And and I always just tell them, we're all just going to wrestle with this word together. You know, we're going to work on this together. And it's it's just been such a blessing. It really has.

Alicia: Vicki, I love hearing that so much. And I'm really curious, um, when you talk about kind of the confidence that you've gained, do you think that confidence came from like the content within the school for lay ministry or the community or the coaching element or all of it? I'd love to hear a little bit more about, you know, maybe when you started to feel confident or if there was something, a particular element that helped you really gain your confidence.

Vicki: You know, I think it was interesting because when I first started with the class, I really pictured myself as simply being a participant and assuming that everybody else had more knowledge than me. Um, but by being in the class and, and, and it being such a safe environment to answer questions or, or wrestle with ideas, and especially when we were put into small groups and we were just talking amongst ourselves, I really started to really feel that. I do know what I'm talking about. I, I have done my work, I have, I have read quite a bit and I have I do have knowledge that can be useful. And so I think it was a mix of everything. And as I said, um, you know, Reverend Marianne was so welcoming. And so, you know, she really put it out there that, you know, lay people are so needed in our churches today. And, you know, I think for myself, you know, I originally started to do it just because I thought, well, you know what? If I get a if I get a piece of paper saying that I, I finished this course, maybe now people will think more about me or whatever, but which really was not true. I needed it for me to say, I can do this, you know?

Dwight: So, Vicki, if, um, you're talking to other lay leaders who maybe are listening to this, or watching this conversation and feeling a stirring maybe of the Holy Spirit, leading them to take a next step. What would be your counsel to them? Um, and then the other side to that would be what would be your counsel to pastors who might be listening or watching this, who are really trying to cultivate an environment in their churches where lay people are empowered to use their gifts fully.

Vicki: You know, I really believe that I, um, would definitely encourage and I have been encouraging people that I do know that are in similar settings in other churches, um, to take advantage of this course. Um, you know, um, you know, I've told them I said, you know, yes, it is. You have to set aside the time for it, but it's well worth it. And, um, you know, um, again, I, you know, I want to be able to publicize this more within the more within the New York metropolitan area. I think it's a much needed course. And, um, you know, I have I have felt very empowered and even more so since being contacted by, by you to be part of this, that really recognizing that this really is a ministry that really needs to be put out there. Um, you know, as, as far as, as far as clergy, it's it's interesting I, you know, I would encourage them to to look at the leaders within their own congregations and to encourage them because quite honestly, I probably had these gifts for years. But until somebody started encouraging me, until my current pastor really started encouraging the gifts he saw in me, I really never thought of stepping out and doing this. Um, you know, and one of the quite interesting facts is that I, at one point, eventually did look into the prospect of being ordained. Um, but at that point, I was in my mid 50s and I didn't have my bachelor's degree and there was nowhere to go. Um, I really was not interested in going back to college to get my bachelor's degree and, you know, and probably made a million excuses why I shouldn't go on to be ordained. Um. But so I would encourage clergy that if you see a gift in a lay person, you know, encourage them to to to investigate those gifts and, and give them avenues for ways to try out those gifts. Um, for me, I ended up trying out a lot of the gifts outside of my own congregation and outside of my church, especially in the three day community. Tres dias that I'm involved in. But all of that experience now has been brought into my own church. And so again, I would really encourage people to investigate their own gifts and, and, and for each of us to see gifts in each other and to encourage each other to use those gifts.

Alicia: Vicki, I love that you shared that, because that has not only been my experience as well as my own life. Dwight, I'm curious if it has been in yours, but I know that it has been in so many others, right? That, uh, that invitation into ministry, uh, whether it's in, you know, uh, an element of worship services or small group participation, or serving on committees or so many other other ways. But just that personal invitation, um, can make such a difference in in people saying yes to a nudge to God, uh, and a sense that the Holy Spirit might be inviting them to something else. Dwight, I'm curious in your ministry journey if there's been that role of invitation as well, you.

Dwight: Know, it's so critical to have that, um, that sense of somebody seeing in you a possibility or a call and nudging it along. So I think, you know, we have sometimes the internal sense of call that the Holy Spirit speaks to us, but it really does have to be validated and discerned in the community. And I think one of the sacred responsibilities of those who are in leadership, whether they be clergy or lay leaders in whatever forms in the church, um, is to really be on the lookout for how the Holy Spirit is stirring in people's lives and to be a kind of talent scout in that sense. Um, and then really to do that encouragement and, and to I think one of the this is a moment in the life of the church when we really have an opportunity to expand how we understand leadership. You know, Vicki, in your conversation, you've shared just how, you know, there are a variety of churches in your context who don't have pastors. That's so common now in so many places. Um, but that's very different from God, you know, not having given the leadership gifts to the church that God needs to do, the ministry God wants to do. And I think we often, um, don't recognize those gifts in people's lives. And, uh, this is a moment when we talk about this pivot toward, uh, primarily lay led, clergy supported is to say, we really need those gifts to be lifted up, empowered, equipped, exercised for the whole body to work together in this moment. And it can't be something that only certain people kind of do. It's really got to be everyone using their gifts and their calling for the sake of the gospel in our time. And so, so Vicky, it's been inspiring to hear about how that's played out in your life, and particularly the variety of ways in which you've led and been equipped to lead, and the excitement that you have about what God's doing in your life. I think so many people are called to that similar kind of journey, and our collective responsibility is to really, um, you know, help discern and unleash and equip and encourage all of God's people. So thank you.

Alicia: Yes, Vicki, thank you so much for sharing your wisdom and your experience and insights with us today. And for our listeners who might be curious to learn more about our school for lay ministry, we will put a link to those details about it in our show notes for episode 87.

Dwight: And to our audience. As always, thank you for joining us on this episode of pivot. To help spread the word about pivot, please like and subscribe. If you're catching us on YouTube or if you're listening, head to Apple Podcasts and leave a review. It really helps.

Alicia: And finally, the best compliment you can give us is to share this episode with a friend. Until next time, this is Alicia Granholm and Dwight Zscheile. We will see you next week.

Faith+Lead: The Pivot Podcast is a production of Luther Seminary's Faith Lead. Faith Lead is an ecosystem of theological resources and training designed to equip Christian disciples and leaders to follow God into a faithful future. Learn more at faithlead.org.