We are well into 2024, and I’m excited to share a new series with you, called “Coloring Outside the Lines.” This series will highlight conversations with some fantastic guests about fascinating and intriguing topics regarding high-demand belief systems. Our first guest in this series is Alex Caiola, an intuitive business and executive coach and a true blue Real Housewives expert and fan. With Alex, we discuss the book, “Bad Mormon” by Real Housewives of Salt Lake City (RHOSLC) cast member, Heather Gay. Alex also gets a deeper look into Mormonism beyond what Heather details in her best-selling book.

About Our Guest:

Alex Caiola is an intuitive business and executive coach.  She is also a 3rd generation entrepreneur. Her website is https://www.capricornrisinginc.com and she’s on Instagram @capirocornrisinginc and @highpriestessofbrooklyn. Her business podcast is also Capricorn Rising Inc, found wherever you listen to podcasts.  

Mentioned: 

The Bravostrologer, Alyssa Polinsky @starsxalyssa

Journey of Souls  by Michael Newton

https://www.newtoninstitute.org/publication/journey-of-the-souls/ 

Guerilla videographer, documentary filmmaker, and constitutional activist, New Name Noah aka Mike Norton

https://www.instagram.com/newnamenoah/

Lisa Barlow, owner of Vida Tequila and cast member of Real Housewives of SLC https://vidatequila.com/  

Multi-business owner and cast member of Real Housewives of SLC, Whitney Rose https://wildrosebeauty.com/  https://prismlifestyle.co/ 

Connect with Leaving in Color:

Instagram - @leavingincolor.pod 

Email - leavingincolorpod@gmail.com

Music by Tucker Winters

Art by Jen Cagle Gilmore

Editing by Particulate Media

Hi, welcome to Living in Color, a podcast about uncovering your

radiant self after losing your faith.

I am your host, Christina Elmer.

I'm so delighted you found us.

Hi, everyone.

Welcome to today's episode.

I am excited as always for those of you that follow me or Living in Color on

the socials, I introduced a new series that we're starting called Coloring

Outside The Lines, where my guests and I discuss everything from books, beliefs,

tenets, and practices that fall within or about high demand belief systems.

So I'm excited to introduce today's guest, my friend, the High Priestess of

Brooklyn, Capricorn Rising Inc., just a brilliant, kind human, Alex Caiola.

I also call her the resident Real Housewives expert, and I have her

on today to discuss the book by the Real Housewives of Salt Lake City

castmate, the lovely Heather Gay.

Enjoy!

Hi, and welcome to Leaving in Color.

This is our first episode of Coloring Outside the Lines, and I am super

excited to introduce my guest today.

Her name is Alex Caiola she is a phenomenal human being.

I consider her a mentor, a friend, someone that I consult with on the

regular about all things astrology and tarot, Alex has recently rebranded.

When I met Alex, she was a tarot astrologer and you are now rebranded as

an intuitive business and executive coach.

Is that right?

Yeah, so it's funny,

I get that correct?

You totally did.

And it's, I think it's funny because I rebranded back to more of like my

original thing, my roots, because I was in recruitment and talent

acquisition for like 10 years before I started my own business.

So it's just more like the rebrand is like a coming back to self in a way.

I love it.

It felt very fluid when you said, oh, I'm rebranding.

And then I was like, oh yeah, this is what she's done before.

And

Thanks for having me.

I'm so excited to be here.

Yeah, I also consider Alex a little bit of

like a Real Housewives expert.

And so that's why I had her on today.

If you follow her on any of her social media and TikTok, Instagram,

she's, she loves the Real Housewives.

And so, we are going to discuss the book Bad Mormon by Heather Gay and probably

a little bit of like Real Housewives of Salt Lake City because obviously

she's, she's a cast member on the show.

But yeah, I consider Alex a resident Housewives expert, so

I'm glad that she's here today to discuss this, this book with me.

Alex is also Gemini, Gemini Sun like me, so I'm excited about this conversation.

It's going to be spicy.

Spicy.

So I have a Scorpio moon and so does Heather Gay actually.

Oh, yes.

I was going to ask you about any sort of astrology.

Let me pull up my friend Alyssa.

So my friend Alyssa, who has this account starsxalyssa, is like the go to for

all things astrology and Housewives.

Oh, I didn't know about this.

Okay.

She's fantastic.

Uh, she posts the star signs, sun signs, all the signs actually,

that she can find, for every cast.

And I actually really rely on her.

Um, she does tireless research.

A lot of these Housewives do not have their birth, their

birth info isn't right online.

So she has to like look for them and get them like all situated every single time.

Um, she gets like new information and she updates them.

So I'm literally just finding her posts about Salt Lake City to make sure that

I get Heather's placements correct.

So she's a Cancer Sun, Scorpio Moon, like I said, and a Sagittarius Rising.

So what does that mean?

Yes, what does that mean?

That means that she, okay, so Heather Gay, I feel like

leads with a lot of the Cancerian characteristics, which are maternal, you

know, she's very proud of being a mom.

I feel like she talks about that throughout the book, but

yet she also, that Scorpio moon is like a fierce protector.

You know, someone who, I have a Scorpio moon as well.

We can be secretive sometimes, like compartmentalize two different worlds,

you know, which she talks about a lot in the book, you know, the mormon side

of her and the, you know, secular part of her and like how to reconcile that.

Um.

And Sagittarius Rising is very much like a teacher archetype, someone who loves

to, you know, travel and gain a lot of knowledge about a lot of different things,

you know, culturally very adept and I feel like she's got like a wealth of

knowledge in pop culture and, you know,

Oh, yeah.

she, and it's, it's a cool placement, like she has kind

of a factor about her that just shows that she's up on things and

she can kind of, um, Sagittarius is the opposite of Gemini, right?

So it's like, we can kind of talk to anyone and enjoy, like, conversations

and things like that, connecting dots.

That's just like a snippet of her chart, obviously, if we were gonna

go, like, super in depth, we could.

No, but that was super helpful.

As you've been talking about, I'm thinking about, you know, watching this,

this most recent season, season four, I really enjoyed when she went over to

Angie, Angie's house for the Greek Easter and how she was just very respectful.

Like she had done her research a little bit about the Greek Orthodox Easter and

how it was different from Mormon Easter or Christian, you know, Christian Easter.

And I just, I really appreciate it about that, about her and I guess the

Sagittarius placement makes so much sense.

It does.

She's definitely respectful.

And I even think, it's funny that the book is called Bad Mormon, but

I feel like she's pretty respectful of the church the whole time.

Yeah, exactly.

She was very, very, extremely respectful and I guess, yeah,

let's just jump into it.

So what was something that you, you loved about the book in particular?

I loved all of it.

first of all, best writing out of any Housewife book I think we'll ever get.

Oh, really?

I've not read any other ones..

Me neither, but I don't think.

Okay.

Okay, so I should, I should, I should say most

of them are ghostwritten.

So I shouldn't say that necessarily.

I shouldn't say that because ghostwriters can be extremely, you know, great writers.

But I think a Housewife writing her own, I'm sure she had help in some

regard, but she wrote the book herself.

Like, she gets the author credit, and I thought from that standpoint,

it was really well written.

And she thought about themes and, you know, wove them throughout.

So I just think from a writing perspective, she did a really good job.

Her delivery on audiobook was phenomenal, because she read it.

Awesome, I love when they read the book.

Me too.

And so I loved that.

I think that what stood out the most to me was how Housewives, like,

brought everything together for her.

Mm.

And how she said, you know, I spent so much time,

you know, trying to be perfect.

And I'm paraphrasing her quote, but the producers and the Housewives

franchise wanted me because of my flaws, because of my failures, and I felt

like they required nothing of me, and in so doing, I got the most out of it.

I think she said like they required nothing and everything from me at the same

time, because I could just show up and be myself, like what better job is there?

And I just thought, wow, that was a really cool way to sort of put that job into

perspective, given her circumstances.

And I just found that to be really empowering for, I felt like I was already

rooting for her, but just given all of the backstory of what she had been through, I

felt like, wow, she really has come a very long way and has made it to some regard.

Yeah, for sure.

Uh, I'm glad that you pointed that out.

I actually, I read this before Christmas break and so I don't remember.

I've tabbed my book.

I have, I'm old fashioned.

Alex and I talked about this a little bit before we started recording, but

Alex listened to the audio version.

I have the hard, old lady version like book because I need to touch

it and tab it and write in it.

But yeah, what a beautiful way for her to be able to heal those parts of

herself, like leaving Mormonism and having to be perfect or feeling like

you have to be perfect all the time and just being seen for who she is.

Absolutely must have been the most therapeutic thing for her.

I can imagine being on reality TV is probably very chaotic and

not the best space to heal in.

Coming out of Mormonism and then, okay, here I'm on the big stage

and, but the producer's just saying, Yeah, okay, we want you as you are.

That is wonderful.

So if we want to kind of compare Salt Lake City Housewives to like other franchises.

I've only watched like a season of New Jersey, maybe

a couple seasons of New York.

Mhm.

What other ones are there?

I've never really watched Atlanta.

I know the castmates and I kind of follow their stories on, like, celebrity gossip

sites, but, and I never watched Potomac.

But how, how is the cast compared to like, other Real Housewives franchises?

Mm I spend a lot of time thinking about this so

I'm really glad you asked that.

I love it.

You also forgot Beverly Hills, which,

Yes, Beverly Hills and Orange County, so I have watched

those, some, some seasons of those.

Yes.

Thank you.

so I think it went Orange County, then New York, then Beverly

Hills, and on and on, the franchises went.

Um, Atlanta was early on, too.

I think Salt Lake City, to me, I thought it was interesting, too, in the book,

they kind of talk about how it wasn't originally meant to be a Housewives show,

or they weren't like sure it was going to be a Housewives show, and then they

made it into a Housewives show, which I think meant that, everybody was happy

about that it seems like, on the cast.

um, because of what that meant at that point.

Um, I think in 2020, they premiered.

I think that Salt Lake City compares in that there's history with all of

the, with a lot of the friendships.

Right.

There's also the sense that there's the Mormon church, there's

Mary, uh, Cosby has a Pentecostal, she leads a Pentecostal community,

Yeah.

and she has a very interesting backstory.

Yes.

And there is just so much going on, like dynamic wise?

You know, Whitney has also recently left the church.

That's Heather's like distant cousin.

Because she had an affair with her now husband, she runs a business.

It's also a very entrepreneurial cast.

Like every single one of them like runs a business besides Mary,

which I guess you could say that her church is a business too.

It's a nonprofit.

Yeah.

Technically.

Um,

The Mormon Church is also a business, too, just by the

Uh huh.

Yeah.

Billions and billions of dollars.

Billions of dollars.

Yeah.

I think that was the original angle of the show.

So they like compiled all these entrepreneurial women.

And I think for me as an entrepreneur too, you could probably relate to this

as well, that's really inspirational and aspirational in many ways.

Like they all have like their thing and they're centering a lot of their

life around their family and making the business and their family and all

those things that they're juggling work, which I think is cool to watch.

But the history and the level of you know religious affiliation

and and like how the city runs.

I think it's just all really interesting.

It's super foreign to me personally.

So I love learning about just different cultures and just like how

everything works together and wait, like Lisa's owns a tequila company,

but she's a very devout Mormon.

Like, how does that work?

Like all of these different layers to it.

I think it's super interesting.

And they're funny.

Like they're really, really funny and entertaining to watch and not

every, I don't laugh at every cast.

Like there's a few that are really funny, Atlanta, Potomac

are two of them and Salt City.

Like New York is, is funny too cause it just on who's on it at the moment.

But um, I'm, I'm laughing, I'm entertained and I'm also just

like enthralled with their lives.

Yeah.

It might be my favorite franchise

Oh,

Besides New York, I mean.

I was going to say you're through and through New York, but.

Yeah.

Yeah, I actually heard a rumor.

I heard this on another podcast that I listened to that the same people that

produce New York produce Salt Lake City.

I could be wrong.

I don't, that hasn't been vetted, but I mean, yeah, I could see that.

Oh yeah.

We forgot Miami.

Miami is another,

Oh, Miami's great, too.

No, and Miami's well, they did for a while and now Miami's back and it's very very

good, too I can't believe I forgot Miami.

There's just too many.

Yeah.

And.

Sometimes it's hard to keep, track of all the, the Bravo shows.

Something I, that you pointed out about that they're all entrepreneurs,

which coming out of Mormonism myself, it's a very, not that being

an entrepreneur is solely Mormon.

You know, but we're, we're taught from a very young age, especially those that

have been in the church for very, very, very long time, or the ancestors go back

to like the founding of the religion, have always been very work and business

minded and individuals, people that just, you know, really, really work hard for

what they have and take pride in things.

And so I think that it's beautiful that they're highlighting

these women that are, you know.

First of all, who doesn't want to support a business owned by a strong woman?

I think that's incredible.

but yeah, it just kind of, I think it highlights a lot of their Mormon ties.

That's another part in the book too where Heather talks about

her entrepreneurial nature from a very age, and I loved learning about

that too about her and I, I didn't realize that that was a Mormon, um,

characteristic or something that's like in the culture, which is that, so that

makes sense and that's, I mean, that's a cool aspect of it, I think, personally.

Just being, you know, really good with your money and like,

you know, just working hard for things that you have and taking pride in it

is definitely something that a lot of people in the church kind of live by.

But what was interesting is if we want to go and talk about Lisa

Barlow, it's interesting because most Mormons, and I wonder if it's...

first of all the culture, Mormon culture, is so different in Utah than

anywhere else in the world or country.

Like, cause there are pockets of Mormons everywhere, like pretty

much every state in the United States has a Mormon congregation.

But for whatever reason, Utah, Idaho, even Arizona, those members

of the church are very specific.

How so?

Like, they're, they're a little bit culturally different.

It's funny because Mormonism, there's lots of like interesting

beliefs, but there's also things that I grew up thinking were beliefs,

but it's actually cultural things.

Like for example, caffeine,

Hmm.

So, one of the tenets of Mormonism is something called the Word of

Wisdom and it's essentially a health code.

So it just breaks down things that are healthy to eat and things that are not.

So coffee, tea, alcohol are two big, big no nos.

But they, they specify as hot drinks, so you can drink herbal tea, hot

cocoa is fine, and that's a hot drink, but, you know, coffee and tea in

particular and alcohol are a big no.

But it's interesting because caffeine is found in coffee and growing

up, like, we were always told, oh, don't drink Coca Cola because

it's, it's caffeinated, right?

But it doesn't say exactly in the Word of Wisdom, oh, caffeine is against the

Word of Wisdom, it's coffee and tea.

But people then changed it to believe, oh, well, then Coca Cola is

bad because it has caffeine in it.

And when I went to Brigham Young University in the early 90s, or the

late 90s, goodness, I'm not that old, in the late 90s, early 2000s, it was funny

because on campus all the caffeinated drinks, so like Coke, Diet Coke, even

Mountain Dew, were caffeine free.

Oh.

Yeah, which is weird because it doesn't say

anything in the Word of Wisdom about caffeine . So it's like,

Hmm.

why can't we have something that isn't

necessarily terrible for us?

I mean, soda isn't the best, but you know, it's, it doesn't specify in there, but

yet we're told not to drink it and you're kind of controlling us in this way that

we can't have caffeinated soda on campus.

So I had a roommate who, when we were living in the dorms, she would

sneak off, first of all, to church.

We had church every Sunday and we were required to go because wherever

we lived, we were separated into, um, small congregations based

upon where we lived in the dorms.

And even off campus, you're just separated into small

congregations for Sunday services.

And my friend who I adore her, she's, she was somewhat of a rebel,

she would go shopping on Sunday.

She would play hooky from church and she would go grocery shopping,

which shopping on Sunday is like a big no, no, in Mormonism.

You're supposed to just go to church, spend time with your family.

You're not supposed to spend any money on Sunday.

And so she would go grocery shopping on Sunday and come back with a

huge like 24 pack of Mountain Dew.

Which, caffeine on campus was a big shocker, like, Oh, here

comes Nikki walking in with a big thing of Mountain Dew on Sunday.

But she did it for show, she's like, I don't care.

And she would just walk back into the dorm carrying her case of Mountain Dew.

But coming full circle, Lisa Barlow now owning a tequila company.

And what's interesting is that her husband, she, she mentions it this

season on the show when her son is getting ready to serve a mission for

church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints, that she wasn't able to go

into the temple to be there while he goes and makes these special promises

or covenants with God in their temple.

but her husband could go.

So I'm curious.

I wish I could ask somebody this question, like how, how is that allowed?

Like, how can you own a business selling alcohol when the Church is definitely

against the consuming of alcohol?

I don't know if they necessarily are against the selling of it,

but they limit drinks in Utah.

You can't have more than two alcoholic drinks on a table at a

time when you go out to eat in Utah.

But it's just, it's interesting that John Barlow has a temple recommend to go into

the temple and he owns a tequila company, but we couldn't have caffeinated soda at

Brigham Young University in the late 90s.

They've since then allowed caffeinated soda on campus and I remember when it

happened it was a huge deal and everyone was posting about it on social media.

But yeah, that's kind of interesting and weird to think about.

It is weird to think about, and I don't know anything about anything

in regards to the Mormonism of it all, but I'm also thinking about filming.

So there's gotta be such interesting stipulations for Salt Lake City in

particular because the two drinks on the table thing, I'm thinking

about a lot of times when they're out to eat, it is two of them.

they're not out to eat like in a big group dinner, or if they do

a big group dinner, it's private.

And I'm wondering if that has something to do with one, you

know, that might that makes sense.

I never thought about it.

Uh, cause I didn't know that was a rule.

And secondly, Lisa's the only one, I guess, still in the Mormon

church, right, and she's on the show.

I don't know what their opinion on that would be, um, or if they have a

say, but I would assume that maybe, like, because she's on the show,

she can't go into the temple either?

Like, maybe it has less to with VEDA and more to do with the show.

Possibly.

I don't know.

Yeah, I'm kind of curious about that.

I mean, obviously, like, I want to be respectful of, you know,

whatever is going on with that.

Like, it's, when I was active in the Mormon church, I, especially towards

the end and I kind of I came into my own understanding of a lot of the

beliefs and practices within Mormonism.

I, I came to understand that it's very personal, like the relationship that

you have with God and the promises that you make to him are very personal.

They shouldn't include, your husband, which within Mormonism, it's a patriarchal

religion and there's a lot of like consulting with men and reporting to men.

But, yeah, I came to believe that it's very personal, and I didn't want to

be judged because someone else told me that I couldn't do something, or, you

know, if I felt something differently, I really wanted to believe that that

was true, and I hope, I'm going to assume that Lisa Barlow is in that same

situation that it's very personal for her.

She doesn't talk a lot about it.

Right.

She doesn't talk a lot about going to churches.

I think she was just recently started going back again shortly

before Jack decided, her oldest, decided to go on a mission.

But I, I think sometimes.

I forget, for me, coming out of Mormonism and I see how damaging

it's been to so many people that it is, it's a personal choice, right?

And I, I need to be respectful of, of that.

And I, I can imagine trying to navigate having a kid who's

wanting to serve a mission.

Actually, side note, I think he ended up not going.

I think we find that out at the reunion.

Yeah, I didn't watch the most recent one.

I haven't either.

Like I feel like you're right.

But yeah, having a husband who's still in the

church, but he seems like he's supportive of her, her decisions.

And I think that that's not something that I've seen very often within Mormonism.

So kudos to her.

I feel like she just really does her own thing

completely, and I think that's cool.

It seems like Heather to me, felt like more of a rule follower, and

that she was really respectful of, everything and took it very sacred from

an early age and then felt that she eventually had to leave because she

wanted to like, live a very different life, like she couldn't have both and

she really tried and couldn't do it.

And I think It's interesting to see, and she probably feels some type of way, and

I feel like she said this about Lisa just kind of doing whatever she wants with

Mormonism, and yes, it's personal, but I feel like the Mormon church has very

strict guidelines from what it seems like on what is and isn't couth and like, what

kind of makes you a good or bad Mormon.

And I think, you know, it's clear which one, The route that Heather chose.

But, um, that's why that cast dynamic I think is so interesting is because

there's people who are like not involved in it at all, people who were involved

very heavily and are no longer, and you know, that was a big part of their story.

And then, you know, somebody who's in the church still, who kind of is a

little loosey goosey with the rules.

Yeah.

I guess it, you know, that works for her and I'm glad that it, that

it's there just to support her.

Yeah.

So anything else from the book?

I'm trying to, When I was reading the book, I have different tabs on

mine things are like, oh my gosh, I, you know, this is typical Mormonism.

And then there were things that I also tabbed that felt very similar

to my own experience in Mormonism.

I actually, um, read a review today because I was like, oh,

I wonder if there's anyone out there that's done a book club.

But, um, someone who's also an ex Mormon said that they found her description of

the Mormon temple ceremony pretty bland.

But again, like going back to the, the thing that you said originally, that

she was very respectful of Mormonism.

Like she, you know, exactly what you said with the title being interesting

because she's not a bad Mormon.

I don't, I don't see her as a bad Mormon.

She's not out there trying to put an expose out about the church

and how it's ruined her life.

She's very, very respectful.

And I, that's somewhat contrary to a lot of people's experiences.

A lot of people that are post Mormon or ex Mormon, they come from a

very, just a very painful space.

and obviously, it's, you know, each person's experience is different,

but I, I don't think Heather Gay is someone who wants to have

that negative energy out there.

She wants to really just put the best out there, and I don't think

that's necessarily a bad thing.

Right.

I have a question because I feel the end got kind of rushed and it didn't really

go into what, her leaving the church.

Yeah.

It just kind of went into like, her becoming a housewife.

Uh huh.

A Real Housewife.

Is it that you have to leave the church if you get a divorce?

You don't have to but she, you know, she is engaging in what

the church considers bad behavior, right?

She's drinking alcohol.

She's having what they would consider extramarital relationships.

Hmm.

I don't recall if she's mentioned getting

her temple sealing canceled.

So the way it works in Mormonism, you go into the big buildings, they have

one right in New York City, somewhere up, uptown, um, in New York City.

Um, but that's where a lot of Mormon ceremonies take place,

predominantly marriages.

And when one leaves the Mormon church.

As far as I know, if you haven't had your records moved, which I don't think she's

had her records removed, as far as I know.

I know that Whitney did this last season, but I don't think Heather has.

So I think that her temple sealing is still intact, even though her

legal marriage to her husband, it's like she's officially

divorced by the eyes of the law.

But according to the Mormon church, she may not necessarily be divorced in their

eyes, like her celestial marriage may not be canceled, if that makes sense.

It's interesting that you asked is because I'm actually kind of

looking at this a little bit.

It's kind of been popping up on my radar with a bunch of ex Mormon women on this

Facebook group that I am a part of.

With women that are leaving the Mormon church, removing

their names, it's a process.

You have to get a whole thing notarized, just like Whitney did.

I was really happy to see that, that they showed like the process

that it's not just like a simple thing and it kind of then shows that

the Mormon church is a business.

Like who has to get a notarized document to leave a religion?

That makes zero sense.

So a bunch of these women on this ex Mormon Facebook group are saying, you

know, I've left the Mormon church.

I've, officially removed my name through the process of, sending a

letter to the church or whatever.

but their temple marriages or their celestial marriages are still

intact in the eyes of the church.

And we were all confused because I also assumed the same thing that if your

name is removed from the records of the church, like, there's not any existence

of you left in the Mormon Church.

Like, you're just, it's like, you were never there.

But from what I've heard from these groups is that that's not the case.

That they still count these marriages as legal in the eyes of God.

It was a little bit confusing, like, oh, I thought that because, you know,

My name was removed from the records of the church that therefore any ceremonies

or promises or things that we do, that it would automatically be canceled

as well, but that's not the case.

So, yeah, I'm curious as to if she's going to go through that,

but also she doesn't really talk a lot about her kids still being in.

She's mentioned that her oldest.

Ashley, who's away at college, is obviously not in the church anymore.

Well, I'm assuming from what I've just seen on the show, but she hasn't

mentioned anything about her younger two.

So maybe her younger two are still active.

Because I think this season she did talk about, remember she went skiing with her

girls that one day and they were talking about some of the bullying that had

been happening with the girls at school?

Yeah

And so I wonder, you know, cause there is a stigma if a

parent leaves the church and there's another parent that's still active, or

the kids still may be active and they have to be around other Mormon kids.

I can't imagine doing that in Utah and then having your mom be on this

huge public, you know, forum of TV.

Yeah, so I don't know if her kids are still in Or if that's why she

hasn't left the church, because her kids are still in, you know?

Right.

It's confusing.

I feel like the end of the book was like a little bit rushed.

I feel like I didn't fully understand the whole of the story.

And I think she's, she's clear and pretty thoughtful about

everything that she's telling.

And so it must have been a clearly well thought out, not, you know, omission,

if, if didn't really go into it in the book and that makes sense to me.

it's just interesting how religions take something that is undocumentable,

marriages in the eyes of God.

It's like, what?

I guess I can think about it as like the Akashic records, right?

Which is like the way that we go into, um, past lives and sort of the soul

history of every living, breathing entity or even building or, you know, land

in, in the, I guess on earth really, because that's the only thing that

we're kind of seeking out answers to.

So I, I guess in that sense, like I can see why you would stake a claim to a

relationship being a record in the eyes of god or the universe, because I guess...

I'm disproving what I was about to say, because, um, there are soul

records that are called, you know, I just call them a different thing

or kind of, you know, we, we kind of recognize them to be a different thing

in spirituality as the Akashic records.

But, yeah, I guess there, there wouldn't be a way to like strike

that from the record, from the Akasha because that's not possible.

So in the other instance of that, I think it, it's kind of beautiful to say like

this cannot be erased, like, you did come together in union, in holy marriage, in

no matter what religion it is, and we cannot pretend like it never happened,

like, there was, you know, the souls came together and created a family,

you know, potentially children, and it would be almost like, uh, sanctimonious

to, to say that it didn't happen.

Now that's a beautiful perspective, thank you.

I wonder if I were to bring that up in ex Mormon circles, they'd probably

be like, that's a bunch of bullshit!

You know, cause there, a lot of these women are coming from an angry space

of like, this has been damaging, you know, but, you know, for me, I feel like

if you're looking at it from a healed perspective, which, I know that I am.

I can definitely see that as, yeah, that, that absolutely makes sense.

But then if we twist it and look how the Mormon Church operates,

that's not how they're viewing it.

But I, yeah, I can totally, I can see that viewpoint of it.

I think that's the interesting thing about being a

third party observer of any highly, you know, organized and thoughtful

religion or culture of any capacity is like simply asking a question

can be very triggering to the people who have the lived experience.

And I think, you know, I hope that as a society, we start to soften the

edges on that a little bit because I think people are really afraid to like

ask questions and get more knowledge on things because people are scared to

offend people, you know, plain and simple.

And I, I could see that like going into a, a setting like that and just saying,

what if we looked at it like this, you know, getting like your head ripped off.

I appreciate that you've created a safe space for me to ask you questions

about Mormonism because, yeah, I think it can be really intimidating

to get to know something if you don't know where the, the landmines are in

regards to the questions, you know?

Yeah.

No, ask away.

That's partially why I started this podcast was just to have

a safe space to be able to ask questions and share stories and...

There's quite a few podcasts out there that really focus on the damaging

effects of Mormonism And I, want, I don't want that to be the focus.

And they come from an angry space of like, this is how I was hurt.

And I, I understand that that, that definitely happens.

Like it, that may not be my exact experience, but I, I know that so

much more can come from healing than coming from the, the space of

like hurt and fear and negativity.

Cause that's, you know, I lived my whole life in fear.

A lot of people in Mormonism live their whole life in fear, and so being able

to just come out and have a safe space is, and a positive space, it's like,

you know, we can have conversations and there's not, you know, animosity or,

judgment on anyone's part, they're just like, yeah, this is just a discussion,

it's, you know, someone's coming from a place of curiosity, not from

a place to like judge or, or accuse.

Right.

So.

And so living in fear, you mean that just in that the church

or a culture that is stemming from the church, imparts a lot of rules and

sort of a moral code to live by, and so you're living in fear that you aren't

living perfectly in the eyes of God?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Living, not living perfectly in the eyes of God and there's the Mormon belief that

when we die, we, that's the main reason for having the temples and performing

the different ceremonies that they do in them is to allow people to have

a next life, but living in with God.

So, you know, versus the belief of like our soul moves on to something

else, it's like staying in heaven.

And then the belief that, you know, when you are, it's called a sealing.

When you're sealed to your spouse, that you're going to be with this

person in the eternities and maybe one day create worlds of your own

Hmm.

like, you know, Heavenly Father did and, you know, sent his son.

I don't know how the whole thing works, but that's just a general

belief that, you know, we'll go on to create our own, our own worlds.

And so there's a lot of fear placed in this life to be perfect, to get

married in the temple, to have a family, to do things perfectly.

Cause if you don't, then you're not going to be able to live with

your family in the next life.

You won't see them again.

If you, you know, commit an atrocious sin of, having sex or, you know, even

viewing erotic material, or just a whole gamut drinking alcohol, or at one

point, I think suicide was considered pretty taboo within the Mormon religion.

Hmm.

Um, that if you commit any egregious sin, even the smallest

one, cause they, they say that just starting small with the smallest

sin, cause then become something much bigger and can ruin your life.

And so there's just a lot of fear placed upon people that if

you're not absolutely perfect.

And yeah, you can repent, you can go talk to your parochial leader

and, you know, confess your sins.

But there's just that underlying fear of like, if you're not good enough,

you're not going to be able to attain the highest kingdom and be able to

live with your family in eternity.

You're going to be living in this lower kingdom and having to like

essentially just not see your family ever again, which is devastating.

You know, if you think about like an eight year old kid in Mormonism, eight

years old is the age you get baptized.

I think, did Heather talk about that in her book about being baptized?

She did it with, I think, Ashley.

Oh, yes.

Ashley's baptism and just reading that, I was like, there's such

pomp and circumstance around that.

And if you think about it, it's a huge deal to accept these

beliefs at eight years old.

Like my youngest got baptized in the Mormon church about two years ago.

And I remember going through that process, being an ex Mormon and supporting my,

my baby who's still in, cause their dad is still an active member of the church.

And just trying to have conversations with him to help him understand, cause

there's not a lot of teaching that goes into it to say, you know, this is...

you get to choose ultimately, but at the same time, there's like the undertone of

like, well, if you don't get baptized, you're going to feel left out, or it

shows that you don't love God, or you don't want to make these promises.

And it's like, but an eight year old.

has barely, you know, been reading for a couple of years.

They barely understand the things that they're learning.

Um, how can you expect them to make a promise, a huge promise.

Like making a commitment to anything, whether it be a God, a person,

anything, it's a huge commitment.

Yeah, it's a lot.

And especially reading Heather's experience going through that with

Ashley and how it just was like, I found it interesting now that

we're talking about that her husband like punished her in some way.

Right?

He was being really difficult about something was...

I really felt for her in that moment, just she was wanting everything to be

so perfect because her baby was gonna be making these huge promises to God.

It's a huge thing at eight years old to do this thing.

And yet her husband's like being a dick about it.

Yeah, they were really not good at that moment.

And so she had gone through all this rigmarole to put together like the

perfect party and the perfect, day.

And I gather this, and you've been saying this, that like the man holds more weight

in the church, and so all he really had to do was show up and actually get

most of the credit for the whole thing that she had done behind the scenes.

And so I think she was feeling very resentful, and just like, all you really

need to do is show up, and then he was trying to change the time of the ceremony,

and she was like, like, no, you can't, you know, it's been, we've worked that into

the entire day and it's just so planned.

It's like basically saying, like, you want to change the time of

a wedding, like the day before.

Right?

It seems, it seems like it was pretty, you know, a lot of moving parts and, um, he

still showed up, he showed up late anyway and, and then like that was kind of the,

the breaking point of their marriage.

Like he was just like, you know, I'll move out like tomorrow or something like that.

I think that was like the end of everything.

And it, you know, there always has to be, like there's like a catalyst and

there's like the small breakings, and then eventually, like, you just can't hang

on like that for very much longer, so.

Yeah.

it was ironic to have it be centered around something that's so important

in the church, though, right?

Yeah, for sure.

Like, I can't imagine doing that.

Because it's funny, because looking at it from an ex mormon perspective, like,

I know that the scheduling that has to go into it, like, because there's, you know,

a lot of children getting baptized, they usually it's assigned per congregation.

Because usually multiple congregations share one building, and so they

schedule like on the first Sunday, this congregation or this Saturday of

the month, this congregation goes and baptizes all their kids turning eight.

And so they usually combine all of them in one hour or you get to say,

okay, well, we're having the Richardson baptism at 10 o'clock and then we're

having the Smith's baptism at, you know, 12 o'clock or whatever, because they

have to fill this big font of water and it takes a long time to get it warm.

And so, you know, it's just.

They do multiple in a day just to knock them out, but.

Maybe it's different than when Ashley was younger, but I feel like in the last,

let's see, my oldest is 18 and when he got baptized 10 years ago, that's kind of how

it was just like you were assigned a day.

Yeah, it is.

They have people scheduling it.

You have to call and schedule if you need to use the building.

Like it's, it's a well oiled machine.

That's for sure.

I have a question back to what we were talking about before,

which is like, the fear of not getting into heaven, not getting a next life

in the best heaven, let's say, for lack of a better, I mean, there is

It is the best.

It is the best heaven.

Yeah.

It's called the celestial kingdom.

The Celestial Kingdom, okay.

So we've talked about Journey of Souls, right?

The book by Dr.

Michael Newton, So I'm wondering, I know it's hard because there's a lot of

secular texts about spirituality that do not have a religion attached to them that

are probably also no nos in the Mormon Church, but in, in any religion, like I

don't see Catholicism handing that shit out either, um, which is how I grew up.

But, death is the great equalizer, you know, the next life, or, you

know, the fact that we all return to energy is the great equalizer.

Like there is no, in my understanding.

And again, I have died hundreds of times.

And what I believe of reincarnation, but I don't remember all of them, obviously,

but in every bit of research that I've done, even like cross functionally

with different texts, different ways that it's been documented, even

in near death experiences, right?

Like we kind of all go through the exact same experience when we die.

And we do rejoin with our loved ones, like kind of no questions asked.

There's nothing you could do to not get that.

And it makes me really sad that for years, I also believed that

you go to either heaven or hell, um, maybe purgatory, but you got

to be really good to get to heaven.

And to learn, you know, as an adult, after years of deprogramming that, at

least from where I sit and the research I've done, none of that is true.

And so it's really just the biggest lie of all of the lies, if we

want to talk about, the egregious offenses in the eyes of God, right?

Um, which is the most ironic thing I've ever heard.

Yeah.

That we, as it's, it's similar in society to, I've been thinking

about recycling lately, Trevor Noah talked about it on his podcast, where

he said the biggest like fallacy and fraud of it all is, is taking something

that is really a large scale problem, like recycling plastic, and instead

of just changing the materials that we make things with from plastic to glass

or other recyclable materials, they in big corporations that make things out

of plastic, put it on the individual to do the right thing and recycle, when

really the problem could be solved in an instant by changing the approach

from a systematic corporate standpoint.

You know, we're talking about religions as being businesses too, right?

Like, I don't, I mean, it's basically the exact same concept.

Yeah.

Do the right thing, go to church, you know, consistently

feed into this business.

And then maybe you'll get an option to go

Yeah.

to heaven, to the best heaven.

Yep.

What a crock!

I know it is the biggest, the biggest farce of them all

It's so messed up.

And it's hard, like, we're impressionable.

We like, you know, humans like want to, I think, you know, you touched on

something earlier, you know, with the baptism, like we just want to be included.

We just want to belong.

We're tribal at the end of the day too.

And so.

You know, religion is one, one of the best ways to be able to give that to people.

So you grew up Catholic.

I have a question.

Mm hmm.

Okay, so Heather talks about Mormons, in one

of the chapters, Mormons are comfortable living with secrets.

Church members go into temples all over the world and conduct complicated and

elaborate rituals that keep a secret from their friends, their children,

their employers, even their spouses.

So in Mormonism, when people talk about the temple, they say, well, we can't

talk about it because it's sacred, right?

But she says that it's secretive, which coming out of it, it's very

secretive because if you're not allowed to talk about it, Right.

So, was there anything within Catholicism that felt very similar

to like, oh, this is sacred, but we have to keep it a secret.

Not necessarily, I feel like Catholicism does things

a little bit more out loud.

Okay.

like, you know, even just the papal, anointing or appointing, right?

It's televised.

Super cool.

Yeah.

I love that.

Super ritualized but I think it's very public, and I think that has

probably always been like a stamp of Catholicism, just like Jesus, in a way,

was like, here I am and I'm the son of God and like, crucify me in the public square.

Right?

Like, it's just, I think a lot of it was pretty from the roots of it.

Um, live out loud.

And also there are rituals in which you confess your secrets

or your, um, sins, right?

Like similar in Mormonism and that part isn't on blast.

And there's a fair amount of secretive behavior in the banals

of Catholicism, obviously, given the, you know, history of abuse.

so.

that's a little bit I think of the Catholicism way, which is like, look over

here and behind the scenes, like something

Hmm.

shady is going on.

Versus, in Mormonism, you can't even get in until you've passed all of these

different like layers of gates, Right.

And then you, once you get in, you get like, the keys to the kingdom, so to

speak, and then you feel really like hard pressed that you could lose it.

I think Catholicism is very much like open the doors and anyone can come in,

but then like once we grab you, you're kind of in with that guilt and that shame

and you know, like the concoction that all like, you know, a lot of organized

religions use to like keep you, I guess.

it's very like, I feel like, you know, probably similar in Mormonism too, but

like, Catholicism was really rooted in like power and like the, you know,

only certain people can have it and, you know, the people that were closest

to Jesus had it and it, you know, just very much like a, power hungry,

Yeah.

patriarchal community.

Yeah.

For sure.

Going back and talking about secrets versus sacred, like, how would you

interpret, like something that's secretive versus something that's sacred.

I have an idea, but like coming out of Catholicism or just like the books and

the studies that you've done since.

I think that a secret, to me, implies that there is something

damaging that you wouldn't want getting out, or you want to keep.

I think, you know, it's a really good distinction because I think

that there are certain things you hold sacred that you would keep

a secret or keep it to yourself.

Um, but you would maybe use that different word.

But I feel like secretive, um, especially because like I have a Scorpio

moon, like I said, with Heather Gay.

So I am just inherently like a secretive person.

There are certain things that like people would never have

known about me and just as I've healed, I've been vocal about them.

So, things like smoking, like I smoked for years and people didn't know,

like I vaped for years and people had absolutely no idea, which I thought

was, it, I just was a testament to like how good I am at like being able to

keep a secret, which I don't think is necessarily a great thing, cuz it implies

that, you know, you're keeping things like kind of away from people you love.

But yeah, I guess I, as I've grown, I've really understood, apart from church,

what sacred rituals look like to me.

And I've really, you know, amalgamated from multiple different teachers, non

secular, and a little bit secular, right?

Because,

Yeah.

Actually something good about the church is like, that's

kind of where you learn rituals the first time, you know, you walk

in and you like bless yourself.

And, but a lot of that is actually rooted in paganism.

Hmm.

So like where the roots are, I think are interesting and.

I think that's a really good question.

I guess sacred is implied that it's good or for your highest, best, and secrets

can be all sorts of different things that maybe aren't in the highest alignment

with who you are or aspire to be.

Yeah.

I love it.

That's exactly what I was thinking.

And it's interesting because Mormon church really wants the

temple ceremony to be very sacred.

They, they want it to be something that, and it's just, this sounds

so gross, just saying it, but you have to earn to get in there.

Like you have to go through a process of, you know, they ask you

in an interview with the Bishop.

They ask, you know, a set of, I think, 10 questions or whatever, and I think

Heather does talk about the questions that they ask, but you have to answer

these questions, and if you answer no to anyone, it might prohibit you

from entering through those doors.

And then, then you get a special piece of paper if you pass the test or

whatever, um, but the things, like the ceremonial part, you don't talk about.

Like, I didn't know anything about it.

And I, before I got married, I actually went to the public library and was

just like browsing nonfiction books and browsing the religious section.

And I found a book called Secret.

I think it's titled Secret Ceremonies.

I've gone since and purchased it on thrift books.

It's an older book.

I think it's out of print.

But a woman writes about her exact experience in Mormonism and she goes

to the temple ceremony in the book.

And I remember reading that, having not gone through the temple and

being sort of freaked out about what was awaiting me on the other side.

Right?

Cause I had gone into the Mormon temple at 12.

Because you can do what they call baptisms by proxy.

So you go in and you get a name of a deceased person and you do the baptismal

ordinance for them so that they can move along the line of specific promises or

covenants that they make to God in order to make it to the celestial kingdom.

And baptism is the first, the first step.

And so at 12 years old, you're allowed to go get a temple recommend

and go to the temple, but they only let you into a certain part.

Just like the front part there's like a waiting room and then you go and there's

like a big font where you go and get baptized for these people, and then you

get the Holy Ghost which is like the laying on of hands where they put their

hands on your head and give you the, essentially give you the Holy Ghost,

and they do that by proxy for people.

So I was in the temple and I had seen in is like this beautiful

building that you, everybody wants to go into, you walk by you're like,

oh this building is so beautiful.

But little did I know that there was like more in the temple that you go and you do.

Other things that are very secretive that you can't talk about.

Like I didn't, you go and you take a it's called a temporal preparation class

before you get married or before you go on a mission either one that's usually

when people go through the temple.

And you're sitting in there, but you can't ask a lot of questions.

Just like Heather said in the book, like she went to a temple prep class,

but she was like, well, what do you do?

What do you wear?

Like all these things, but they're like, oh, we can't talk about it.

And so that's the thing that is a little bit outrageous to me that

they're touting something is sacred, but it's so secret that we can't

talk about it because it's weird.

Honestly, it's really freaking weird.

And the fact that like the, the ceremony has changed over the years.

Like, at one point they did like a, anybody that's interested

in this, you can go on YouTube.

There's like lots of information.

You can even watch the temple, um, it's called the endowment session.

You can go and watch it on YouTube if you want to.

It's there.

It's all there.

A guy named, he goes by the name of New Name Noah.

He's fascinating character.

Um, in the ex Mormon arena, he went into temples and he's actually like banned.

Like he was on like a multiple, possibly, I think, I might be wrong, but I think

he was on like the Mormon Church's like top hit list of like people to like

watch out for, cause he would just go sneak into temples and like, he would

pin a video camera on himself and he'd record the whole temple ceremony.

Um, so it's out there online if you really wanted to go and watch it.

But it's just, it's so interesting that something that's claimed to

be sacred and of divine revelation from God, but yet it keeps changing.

you can't talk about it outside the walls.

You can talk about it, like Heather said in the book, she was able

to talk about it once she got to a certain room in the temple.

But before that, you can't say anything.

And so it's just, it's very, little kooky, if you ask me.

Yes.

And I feel like it's kind of, it's paranoid as well.

Like I it's, it reminds me a little bit of like when businesses make you sign an NDA,

you know, like to go through an interview process, like they're worried that you

could leak information or trade secrets.

And I think, you know, then it just makes people want to like do illicit activities

to get the information out there like that guy like, you know recorded that's

was already out at that point.

rebellious.

Yeah it's so rebellious.

Yeah.

But it was fascinating.

Cause now like, you know, you could just research it, but then the church

has like done everything they can to take out as much as they can, but...

I wanted to tell you about something that my family was

like sending around around Christmas.

In New York City, we have Times Square, I'm sure everybody is familiar, at

least if you haven't seen it yourself, and so it's million, you know, huge

LED, massive video screens, and around Christmas, they did a nativity

story of like the birth of Jesus,

The Mormon Church did?

Well, that's what we found out.

Okay, so that's what I wanted to tell you because my, my grandmother

found it on YouTube or my aunt found it and she sent it to me.

And I said that is an advertising platform, so there's no possible

way that a, we don't have a national religion in, in, in the US.

It's like our whole country is founded on like religious,

Freedom.

I ndependence and freedom.

Yeah.

Cause of where, you know, a lot of people came from, right?

And so there's just no way that they would do that in Times Square,

like, out of the goodness of their heart, because it's Christmas time.

It's like, they could be getting Coca Cola money, they could be getting M&

M money, like, they, they do, they get, you know, they get money from

advertisers, that's how it works, right?

So, I go digging a little bit, and I didn't have to go far, and

I find that it's paid for by you know, Jesus Christ of the Latter

day Saints, um, the Mormon Church.

And so I said that in our group text and, you know, my family's Catholic.

So my grandmother was like super Catholic and, they didn't like that.

I was just like kind of poking holes and like, you know, they're not doing

this out of the goodness of their heart.

It's so sweet.

And like, we love the Jesus story.

Obviously it's, you know, Christmas is like a big deal.

but like, let's just look at like.

One layer beyond the initial with this stuff.

Uh, it didn't go over well in the group text, but I just thought I would

share that with you because I thought it was interesting and you know, the

church is worth like a, what, a billion dollars, multiple billion dollars.

So they had money for the advertising.

Let's just put it that way.

I feel like we could spend hours talking about the the amount

of money that they spend on marketing.

That must've been, I mean, a takeover, like, a takeover,

like, that must have been, the number that's coming to my mind is like 250,

Yeah.

Oh, that's like chump change for them.

I don't know how much it actually was, I kind of, now I'm

Yeah, but

But that's like,

So, that's like a drop in the bucket for them.

Totally.

Totally.

And I just think

Yeah.

It's worth thinking about this because basically people were

like, this is like, person who posted it was like, if, if this is the way that

the direction of our society is going, then that's such a fantastic sign.

It's like, what?

No.

Somebody paid for that.

I don't

Yeah, you don't just get to put things up for free in Times Square.

It's not like that.

Yeah, but that's not, that's also not very shocking at all that they did that.

It was cool.

Well, I'm sure it was.

Like, they have great people in their marketing department.

Like, you know, they, they pay good money for for their PR department.

They have really good people in there.

Yeah.

hmm.

It's astounding what they do with their money.

They have billions of dollars the amount of good they could do with that money

Of course.

and they're not doing it.

They're not doing it.

They keep building these temples which cost millions of dollars

Well, Christina, they did put up the Nativity story

in Times Square.

I think that's a world of good, and if that's showing

us where our society is going.

By the way, I'm a fan of Jesus, like just FYI.

Like not like he's like the one true savior kind of thing, but like in

the fact that he like was a cool, you know, um, dude who helped people.

Yeah.

He was a model citizen.

I, I totally believe that.

Beyond even that, like he helped people.

Yeah.

He was a healer.

Yeah, he was.

Yeah, I do too.

But it's just interesting that like the Mormon version

of Jesus is somewhat skewed.

Yeah.

So, but I mean, that's good for them that they, was it?

Obviously it was someone who wasn't Mormon that you saw had posted that.

It was not a Mormon person, it was like my aunt found it from, I

think like a Christian, so I guess maybe just like the amalgamation of like all

things Christian kind of thing, and she said like, I wonder if this really

happened, and if so, like how cool.

And I was like, yeah, it seems like it did, but it also seems

like it was paid for, and then we went down that rabbit hole.

And it was, and it was by the Mormon church.

So, I mean, I guess doing a solid for all

All Christians.

Yeah!

I mean, it's, it's a beautiful story.

It is a beautiful story.

Exactly.

Oh.

Well, well, well.

I have, I have some more about housewives of Salt Lake City

that I want to talk about.

Um, I feel like we've covered a lot about Mormonism.

when I read Heather's book, there were so many things that really resonated with me,

like her relationship with her ex husband kind of felt like the relationship I had

with my ex husband just, and I feel like a lot of Ex Mormon women have very similar

stories of like feeling like they, didn't have a voice and they couldn't share

their opinion or, you know, they just felt marginalized in some way, even at church.

Like I remember holding a somewhat higher position because within the Mormon church,

everything is on a volunteer basis, like you're given an assignment, you're

asked if you want to take an assignment and you could say no if you wanted to,

but there's a stigma, like, oh, who would say no to this, this position.

But when I was called to a position, um, to work with the youth program

with the girls, cause it's, you know, it's separated by sex.

Like the men work with the men and the women work with the women.

And so when I got called as the president of the youth group for the girls,

my bishop at the time was amazing.

He was supportive.

And that was the, I think, honestly, the best experience I've had holding

a calling in the Mormon church where I felt like I was being heard.

Hmm.

But just within my own relationship, I.

I struggled with that.

I struggled being able to just come forward and say, hey, I I'm questioning

things, or I feel differently about something was automatically discounted.

You know, like, well, you don't know what you're talking about, or,

just you're wrong, you know, um, and her experience when she was talking

about, um, that in particular, and then just the temple stuff, I was

like, oh my gosh, yeah, that was me.

Mm hmm.

Like, oh, I'm going through here and

I can't ask questions, and,

Yeah.

I feel like.

it's interesting that the religion reinforces something

that's uniquely patriarchal.

You don't really question the man in the relationship and you have your role.

And I think when they were owning the business together, I loved that part

because it was just sort of like showing you how qualified she was, how ready

she was to take on a different role, how capable she was and how he sort of

recognized her in that capacity, but then was still the one who was making

like the business decisions at a,

at a higher level that did affect her down the line.

And I thought that part was hard as a business person and as someone who's

uniquely capable and like, don't need to run a business with my husband.

I felt for her in that moment.

And I feel like it was a very big redemption story for her

to like own her own and have a man actually hand her the keys.

Which I thought was really cool, to, to Beauty Lab and Laser, which

is like renamed from whatever the, the guy who had it before was.

And I thought, what, what a cool, like full circle.

She didn't really make that distinction, but I thought that was a cool full circle

moment of like a guy who shut the door on her, from a business standpoint,

something that she created and was her brainchild and he just like monetized it

poorly basically, and just kind of like gave, gave it away and then, you know,

getting, getting a second chance at that with Beauty Lab and Laser, I thought

was kind of cool and important for her.

Definitely, yeah.

When her husband, her ex-husband, like she was doing the photography

for the business and then he'd ended up hiring . So I was like, oh.

Well, she, she also said, you know, they got almost like skilled out.

Because Photoshop was not a unique skill set anymore and they just were

not as unique of a business model anymore, but still I thought...

All she wanted to do was just to be seen, right?

She just wanted to be seen by her husband.

She wanted to seen, be seen by her church, and now she is, she's

being seen by the entire world.

We love, we love a redemption story.

Always been a Heather, yes, I've been a fan of Heather since

like season one, honestly, she's

She's one of my favorites.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Meredith Marx is number two.

Mm.

I have issues with Whitney.

So I don't know if you're, how good your memory is with Real Housewives stuff, but

I remember so I texted my friend Ashley about this, I was like, hey, I could

have sworn, and I went back and watched it because everything's on Peacock now.

Even though I bought everything on iTunes or on, on Apple TV.

I went back and watched season, the first episode of season

one, where Whitney is having her recommitment ceremony to Justin.

And it was Heather who said it.

So I looked back and I was, could have sworn that Whitney said that

she'd left the Mormon church, but then it was Heather in the confessional

that said that Whitney had left.

Mm.

Then we fast forward to what, season three, and Whitney

is signing her official documents to leave the church, and I was

like, I thought she left already.

Mm hmm.

And so I was confused.

And I was like, but did I get it wrong?

Did Whitney say at any point that she left a Mormon church?

I don't remember that, but I feel like it's semantics too, because

if you're like not going to church anymore or you're, I feel like she was

excommunicated because of the affair.

I feel like she did talk about that.

Yeah.

That's what I thought.

And so then she's like removing her records.

And I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa.

I'm so confused about this.

And so I was like, is she doing this for publicity?

well, is It like an empowerment move?

Okay.

Yeah, I could see.

So there might be a little bit of judgment.

I've DM with her a couple of times.

So I like her.

That doesn't like mean that I like somebody just because they like answer

their DMS or like, you know, look at their DMS, but I mean, to your

point, like you could have like an ex communication from the church and

then you decide as an individual, hey, strike my name from the record is,

aren't those two different things?

Completely, yeah, because when you're excommunicated,

your records are I thought they were removed, but maybe they're not.

Maybe they're not, maybe it's like the marriage thing.

Yeah.

Yeah, but you have to be re baptized into the Mormon

Church, so I don't know if they just I, I don't know how it works, if they

have like a special folder In their filing system at the church headquarters

across the street from their billion dollars outdoor shopping mall.

I have not one clue.

But I do think like there's part of these shows that are for the show as well.

And so I think, you know, it's probably two things can be true.

Yeah, that's true, but I was just like,

how can this, what's going on?

I was so confused.

Cause like first season, she's like, but then it was Heather who said it like.

You know, Whitney left the Mormon church.

She and Justin left the Mormon church at, you know.

And that's what, what's interesting, like, if we talk about Monica, the

new cast member this season, who had an extramarital affair, she

had an affair with her brother in law and she got excommunicated and

he didn't, which is so typical.

Mm,

So typical.

Like I actually was threatened with excommunication.

I haven't talked about it openly.

Because my records were still in the Mormon church.

And, I had divorced my husband, my ex, my now ex husband, but because I

was still considered an active member of the church and I was engaging in

a relationship with another man and posting about it online, that I was

confronted with excommunication.

And I was like, Hold on.

I have kids that are still in it.

It's very taboo.

Very, very taboo.

So when Monica said that that was her experience, I was like,

yeah, that's unfortunately

mm,

the case.

Like just reading these stories, these women on ex Mormon Facebook,

like going back to the, the Mormon celestial, the temple marriage.

Like when someone is still active in the church, for example, my ex husband

who, let's say they wanted to get remarried, they can ask the church

for a temple sealing, a cancellation.

So they can cancel the sealing or the marriage between me and him.

mm,

But they will send me a letter notifying me of his request

and I can, you know, respond to it.

But ultimately they're not, they're going to do whatever they want.

They're not going to, my words won't matter.

But it's just interesting that some of these women have said, oh, I have

sent a letter because I've gotten a letter in the mail saying, oh, your,

you know, this person who you were married to wants to get remarried.

And they'll send a letter saying this person is horrible person,

they're abusive, yet they can, you know, list off things as to reasons

why this person should not even have a membership or be married.

The church just discards it.

They don't care.

It's a number, someone that's continuing to pay money to the church.

But it's just very, very sad that men are given special allowances where sometimes

women are not, and it's frustrating.

So I felt for Monica when I, when I heard that and very frustrated with the system.

I think that Monica aside, cause that's a whole separate

issue that on a different podcast.

I kind of want to get into that.

I feel like what is so cool about the Housewives

is that it is women's stories.

Over and over and celebrated and, you know, trials and

tribulations and yes, flaws.

And of course, you know, there's salacious things that come out.

And, but what I do love is that the woman is always centered in the conversation.

And it really is like probably the first time in Truly, like, pop culture history

where, like, the men are secondary.

And, uh, you know, Desperate Housewives was the impetus

for the Housewives franchise.

And I remember that show being very pivotal and, and,

trailblazing at that time.

Because I mean, even if you think about soap operas and stuff like

that, it's always like couples.

It's not just one woman, you know, telling her side of the story and the man, the

men come in and out or, you know, or again, like not the main characters.

And I think it's a beautiful thing to, to see that, no matter what's

happening with them, that it's just their side of the story.

Yeah.

That's beautiful.

I think that's where we're going to stop because that was, that was amazing.

But, um, Alex, before we go, um, can you tell people where they can find you

Yeah,

on the Internet?

So my personal account is high priestess of Brooklyn.

That's where you're going to catch most of the, uh, the housewives musing.

So if you want to like Kiki there, that's a fun place to find me.

My business account is, uh, Capricorn rising ink on Instagram.

These are both my Instagram handles.

And that's, um, the business executive coaching area where we, actually bring

an intuitive practices like astrology and human design and apply them to

career life purpose and, um, you know, running a successful business.

just where the intuitive meets business side of life.

So I'd love to hang out with you there too, my entrepreneurial,

you know, ex mormon besties.

Yes.

Everyone connect with Alex.

She's been so helpful in my journey in my own intuitive practices.

So I'm grateful that I met you.

It's been like, what, four years now.

Yeah, I know.

I'm so too.

I know you've come so far and just what you're doing now, I think is so great.

And this is exciting and I'm, I'm excited to see how this

continues to flourish for you.

Thank you.

And also guys, check out her TikTok, her TikTok is one of my favorites.

I'm always excited to see when I'm scrolling.

Ooh, yeah.

Thanks.

Yeah.

That's a fun one too.

And I have a podcast as well, so it's, it's just called Capricorn Rising Inc.

and it's entrepreneurial stories and interviews.

So it's a fun, fun place too.

It is.

I'm all over the Internet.

Yeah, you are.

I love it.

I love it.

Well, thank you so much for being here today.

I loved it so much.

Me too.

Okay.

I'll see you later.

Bye.

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