We’re all about the cinematic journeys that keep the spirit of storytelling alive, even in the face of impending doom. Our main squeeze this week? How this installment feels like a continuation of "The Way of Water" rather than a new chapter in the Avatar saga. We’ll dig into the visuals, the characters, and whether this flick packs the punch we expect from a James Cameron joint. Plus, we can't help but share some light-hearted banter about our favorite (and not-so-favorite) moments, including a character that might just make you want to throw your popcorn at the screen. So grab your snacks and settle in—it's about to get interesting!

02:05 Diving into Avatar: Fire and Ash

04:22 Box Office Predictions and Franchise Future

09:40 Avatar: Fire and Ash - Initial Reactions

41:03 Final Thoughts and Ratings

45:26 Recommendation Shelf: Humans Are the Real Enemy

56:37 Show Wrap-Up and Future Plans

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In the dying embers of human existence.

As the asteroid, a behemoth the size of Texas, hurdles relentlessly toward Earth, the world braces for an apocalyptic end.

Deep beneath the bunker, a refuge plunges into the bowels of the earth.

Here the chosen gather, their purpose clear to preserve the very soul of our civilization.

The 35 and 70 millimeter prints that encapsulate the magic, the emotion and the dreams of generations past.

These masterpieces, each frame a testament to the human spirit, are carefully cataloged and cradled in the cavernous confines of the bunker.

Perhaps there was room for more, for friends and family yearning for salvation.

But sacrifices must be made.

The movie nerds stand united, the keepers of a flame, promising a future where the art of storytelling endures, transcending the boundaries of time and space.

God help us all.

Welcome to Back to the Frame Rate, a proud production of the Western Media Podcast Network.

In the cinematic crusade, we journey through films on VOD and streaming platforms, deciding their fate.

Salvation in our vault of legends or eternal banishment to the flames of the coming asteroid apocalypse.

You can find all episodes of our show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or your favorite podcast apps, or find us on social media at Back to the Frame Rate.

I am Nathan Sure.

And accompany me as always as Sam Cole.

How are you tonight, Sam?

And Happy New Year.

Greetings.

Happy New year.

Yes, so much to celebrate this year, huh?

Yes, it's just a circus.

Well, we have made it to the new year and also the third film and our.

I guess our mini James Cameron retrospective, but ending it with a big one here, the.

The third installment of Avatar, the.

Of this franchise, Fire and Ash.

So we'll get into this movie in a moment.

But Sam, let me ask you, I think of everybody that has been on this podcast over the last.

Can you believe it?

Has it been three years since we launched this?

It's crazy to think that Our First.

Episode, 6 if you include the time we went through that wormhole.

But, you know, I think I'm talking about that.

But yeah, you are probably the biggest fan of this franchise, of anybody that has had their voice heard on the show.

Tell me, what is it about this franchise that really speaks to your heart?

The Avatar franchise.

Yes.

So for me, it's that whole kind of like transporting aspect of it.

I just feel like it's a well grounded, like sci fi slash fantasy sort of Star Warsian saga film.

And to me, I mean, the first one set the visual benchmark in vfx.

I thought the second one was even better.

But for me it's the transporting, otherworldly, dreamlike kind of wonder aspect of it to it.

It just has this underlying quality that endures.

And that's why you see these movies sort of leg out at the box office in the amazing, unprecedented or unusual way they do, I should say.

Yeah, that first one, I actually was on Box Office Mojo a couple days ago.

That movie, Talk about Legs.

It didn't actually leave the theaters until the middle of August and that was the December release.

That's amazing.

That is amazing.

And I don't know how many weeks it held that number one, but it was in the top 10 through, I think, end of March or April or so, something like that.

It was insane.

Exactly.

These days movies are lucky if they last 10 days in the theater.

Yeah.

And the Way of Water legged it out until May.

Now it'll be interesting because the theatrical landscape has changed so much in just three years as well.

With theatrical windows sh.

Shrinking so quickly, how long Fire and Ash will leg things out.

And we've already, I don't know if you've been tracking box office.

I mean, again, James Cameron, still, this will be considered a gigantic hit no matter where this lands, because it's already crossed a billion dollars as of this date and it's trending toward, you know, close to two.

I don't know if it's going to hit two.

You know, the first two.

I mean, I think the first avatar was about 2.4 billion, maybe somewhere on that.

And Way of water was 2.9 or do I have reverse?

I'm not sure.

But crazy numbers 2.9 and then second was I think 2.4, 2.3 or something like that.

Yeah, Insane.

Absolutely insane numbers.

Do you have a prediction on where.

Oh, I was gonna say, if I had to be optimistically positive for Fire and Ash, I would say 1.8 million.

And that's, I mean, billion.

And that's like on the higher end.

And it's funny right now and it might.

It may be like entirely worthless, but if I was in like a marketing meeting and I had to give my honest answer, that's what I would say.

And that's like my high end estimate.

And would that be considered a disappointment?

No, I mean, it's still.

It's huge.

Put it this way, it's enough to justify at least part 15.

15 more of these.

You know, what, what am I.

What is 4 and 5?

Because I know like the scripts on Those are written.

The fifth one apparently takes place on Earth.

The fourth one, put it this way, Disney had a lot of notes for Fire and Ash, you know, several pages.

And their notes, when they read the script for Avatar 4 was, and I quote, holy.

And that was it.

Okay.

That's a true story.

So I don't know.

I hope.

I just selfishly want to see this saga complete because there's, you know, this movie didn't feel like an ending, but we'll talk about that.

Let's see again.

Directed by James Cameron, Written by Cameron, Rick Jaffa, Amanda Silver.

Music by Samon Frangian, who composed Avatar 2, took over for James Horner, who did the first one.

What else we got here?

Cinematography.

Russell Carpenter.

He did the Lawnmower Man.

I noticed that.

Did True, True Lies.

The last one.

Yep.

Titanic.

So he is an Academy Award winner.

Cast we got Sam Worthington, Jake Sully, Zoe Saldana as Natiri.

Recently won Academy Award for best supporting actress.

So you know Academy Award winners in here.

Sigourney Weaver as Kiri.

Stephen Lang as Colonel Quaritch.

Una Chaplin as Varang.

Kate Winslet as Ronald Cliff.

Curtis Tonowari.

I'm gonna get some of these names all messed up here, but Edie Falco as General Ardmore, Jermaine Clement.

I always think of him as fight of the Con.

Was it the fight of the Concords?

The show.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And almost didn't.

I didn't even recognize him.

I think in the last movie I'm like, yes, I know where this guy's from.

Giovanni Ribisi.

Is he.

I forgot that he's even still an actor, but he shows up in these movies.

Parker Selfrid Bridge Britain Dalton as Low act.

It was one of the youngest son of Jake and Natiri and Jake Champion as Spider.

And I have thoughts on Spider.

We'll get to that.

All of these are December releases.

So I do have a trailer and a plot synopsis.

So Jake.

Yeah, Jake and Nateri's family grapples with grief, encountering a new aggressive navi tribe, the Ash people, who are led by the fiery Varang.

As the conflict on Pandora escalates and new moral focuses emerge.

Here is a part of the trailer from Avatar.

Fire Nash.

The strength of the ancestors is here.

You cannot live like this, baby.

In hate.

If there's something you can do.

Then you must do it.

The children.

No, no, no.

Spider.

And we will fight.

Find another way.

All right.

That tells you everything.

Sam, tell me.

Just give Me some initial thoughts.

We don't have to get into, like, spoilers because you.

I mean, if you're going to watch the movie you've probably seen already, but give me some initial reactions to this third installment of Avatar.

So I will say initial reactions if.

I mean, if I had to, to rank the films for me, I would still put Avatar the Way of Water as number one.

As my favorite.

I.

With this film, I thought.

I mean, I like the story, the visuals, the characters.

Always with this movie, I felt the talking about it in general, the first and the third act were pretty.

Pretty good, like, spectacular.

I mean, I thought the movie got most visually inventive towards the end.

For me.

I just had more kind of pacing issues with the middle of this film.

I thought there was a lot of sort of short scenes and jumping around, whereas I felt the Way of Water, even though it was a different movie, had more of a sort of flow to it.

And while as this one was very, like, focused on character and like, interactions and sort of like moving plot chess pieces forward.

And I thought Varang was great, I felt that the second film especially induced that more kind of dreamlike state that people love about these movies so much.

Where they spent when they went and lived with the reef people and they were like, becoming part of that tribe and learning and like, swimming underwater like that to me was so transporting.

And I thought this film was going to spend more time with the Ash people, the Mangquan clan.

And I was sort of surprised in the way they kind of came into the story.

But I would say ultimately I. I like it, but I would still put the second film above it.

For me, it's.

There's.

It's.

Has pacing issues more so than the second.

And that's just.

I've seen it twice now, IMAX 3D.

And I would put it there, but it's.

But for example, I will say that and without giving anything away, like, with the final battle, there's so much visually going on there that.

With editing that goes by so quickly that I didn't even realize that certain characters perished until I saw the film a second time.

And so that.

That was surprising me because it's a spectacular battle.

But anyway, yeah, so that's my initial.

I mean, I can go on and on, but that's my.

Overall, it's hard not to talk more without going into specifics, you know.

Yeah, I have a couple initial thoughts on this without getting into too many spoilers or details.

So I went into fire and ash, I guess, with some Cautious optimism.

But honestly, I feel like this is basically just a continuation of the Way of Water.

I thought this was going to be a whole new chapter in this world of Pandora.

And the first two films I thought were interesting because, you know, film one, you have this world where we're introduced to like Forest Na', Vi, this new world, it's spiritual, it's visually stunning.

In the second one, you have the reef Na' Vi and you have this water culture and it's a whole new environment, it's a whole new fresh dynamic to the movie.

I didn't like the second one as much as the first one.

I think just because of the spectacle of what James Cameron brought to this, to the first world.

He never seen anything like that before.

But I think also the 12 or 13 year gap between the movies did build up some anticipation for the second one.

Even though I think a lot of the world forgot about Avatar for a while.

It came back with a big splash and I think the world was hungry for it more than people realize.

But in these three years since Way of Water, I really felt like if he's gonna take such a short period between these movies, he's got to come back with something new.

And so, you know, with a movie titled Fire and Ash, I expect that.

Like you said, I thought this journey was going to go to this volcanic mountain region of Pandora where we're going to get at this whole new world, whole new environment.

And this, like I said, this really plays like the way a Water Part two.

And it's more than that.

It repeats so many of the same dramatic beats as the second movie as well.

And the story, I feel like barely is moving characters forward and that I found very frustrating.

So in the end, it feels like we spent almost seven hours telling one story between two movies.

And that is something that, that does irk me about this.

And that's.

I'll leave it at that for now because there I can into more thoughts.

But yeah, go ahead.

Sam.

I wanted to say you brought up a really good point.

I meant to say that too.

My notes are kind of scrambling over here, but this movie really did feel like the Way of Water Part 2.

As if it was like a two part film.

It felt like the Way of Water Part two.

It didn't feel like, you know, its own third thing.

And that's what I thought.

I thought the movie, the story would take us to the mountains, the volcano and the ash people.

And essentially we go there for 20 minutes when Quaritch goes to enlist.

I love that Scene.

It was great.

It came out of nowhere.

That's what I mean about this.

Yeah.

It's maybe my favorite part of the movie is Quaritch and Varang, their interaction, by the way, I think played by Una Chaplin, Charlie Chaplin's granddaughter.

I mean, I did not.

I don't know this actress very much.

I think I've heard of her before, but I think is the standout performance in this movie.

And she was amazing.

There's not enough.

I would have been.

This is my personal thought on this.

I.

First of all, I do think that Stephen Lang, He.

He's great in these.

I think this is my favorite Stephen Lang performance in all three movies, actually.

I think he's better in this than he was in the second one.

But at the same time, Stephen Lang's character, Quaritch, doesn't really grow in this movie at all.

And I don't need this movie to be his redemption story, which I was thinking it might try to go there, and I'm kind of okay that it doesn't.

But at the same time, it's rehashing the same beats with that Quaritch character.

He's going to villages and burning huts and doing the same thing over and over.

And I felt, oh, my God, here we are with this character.

And there's no growth to him.

There's.

We're not going anywhere.

We're just spinning our tires with the Quaritch character.

And I'll be honest.

I mean, we're in spoiler territory already with us.

But I'm so petrified that going forward, Avatar 4 and 5, he's gonna be back against.

We do not see him die.

That.

That he's gonna be back again.

And honestly, we had an amazing villain in this movie in the Widverang, and.

Yeah, no, she's not dead.

Yeah, no, nobody died.

Maybe some of the humans died in this.

Died.

I didn't even realize that the first time.

I don't even know that.

I did not see.

Well, we'll get to the ending.

Got sucked into the vortex.

She is dead.

And it's, like, official.

What the hell was the vortex?

I don't even think that's explained.

Anyways, we'll get to the ending because.

Yeah, I see.

That's stuff I know.

But we'll go, yeah, yeah, you know.

You know.

You think so.

I.

You know, things I don't know.

But anyways.

But Varang was such a great character, but at the same time, I feel like she should have been the main villain of this movie.

She Is sidelined.

Becomes like Quaritch's tag along in the last half, last third of this movie.

And there's such.

And also they set up this whole.

Like what you mentioned before, what's the name of the tribe with Varang's tribe?

I forget.

Oh, the Meng Kwan clan.

I love how they establish this, but we don't explore them.

We don't know anything about them.

Like just a little bit.

Little tiny tidbits.

Why couldn't I would have loved the conflict to have been Reef tribe and the Ming Kwang tribe and that conflict?

I didn't.

It's just the fact that we kept going back to the same story.

And I'll get into the whole Spider thing in a moment, but this is what just drove me nuts.

I thought we tried to rewrap things up in the second movie.

Oh, no, the third movie is continuing all of that.

And I thought what it did was it kind of lessened the second movie for me in a lot of ways.

Oh, I real.

Oh, the second movie wasn't a movie.

It was just Act One.

And I didn't even realize it at the time.

And made me realize, why couldn't we just do this in three hours?

Because really, I felt like I was watching the same movie again so much.

Well, we see what's really interesting about that is, and this is true, James Cameron.

Avatar 2 and 3 was originally one script, and he originally intended it as one movie, but there was too much, and so he split it up, I would argue.

And you brought up two points that ties into something perfectly that I wanted to say, I would argue, by splitting the two stories.

It was the third film that suffered a little bit more.

But by taking some out of part two for me and allowing for these longer, dreamlike swimming scenes.

And two has the.

My favorite, like, battle scene at the end of that film.

Like, I feel like part two benefited from having some of that story take out of it.

And so part two, surprisingly, for me, topped the experience I had with the first one for me.

Three, a great.

You mentioned a great thing about Quaritch, how we see him burning villages again.

And that brings up two points.

One, the editing and one, the pacing.

There's a.

Literally, a scene just comes out of nowhere where he's just burning the villages.

He's like, hey, where, you know, where is Spider?

Where is Taruk Maktou?

He's like, all right, this ain't working.

I got another idea.

Then it immediately cuts to him walking up a hill with the gigantic volcano behind him into the mountain range to meet Aang and the pacing of that, not only was it showing what his character was doing before was repetitive, but the movie for me kind of jump cuts around like that and it has these kind of like scenes here and scenes there that for me a lot of the middle act of this movie seems to turn inward a little bit more and almost micro focus.

I don't quite know how to explain it but like I had pacing issues with the movie.

That's my main thing I would say, I will say.

One comment though.

I thought the most the coolest new visual thing that I saw in this movie that I wish there was more of because I know they repeated things.

They went back to the forest and they went.

But they didn't really go to a new place.

I liked the human city Bridgehead the most with all the smokestacks and when.

And Natiri goes there to rescue him.

And it's a very Blade Runner vibe to it, I thought.

Yeah, I, I just thought like it.

I mean in this movie that was like the newer visual that I was looking for and I also, I liked the volcano area but I thought we spent far too little time there.

And I think you're right.

I think Varang, her performance was so good.

I think she should have been a much more central focus.

It's weird because I know because James Cameron, like he always has long action scenes like.

But I, I was surprised he had.

There were some patient pacing issues in this movie that I don't see in other James Cameron movies.

And it was more prominent to me in this and so that surprised me a little bit.

Even though I mean I still enjoyed it.

But that's interesting.

I.

The pacing didn't bother me.

I mean, I mean I'm dumping on this a bit but I was entertained by this.

I was caught up spectacle of this.

I'm not complaining about that at all.

Visually exhilarating.

I.

That was not the issue.

I just have a problem with the story that was presented now we talked about Varang as being like.

We both agree was one of the big highlights of this and I feel like should have been one of the central parts of this much more than she was.

But what was Cameron did decide was going to be like the anchor of this movie I think was the story of Spider the, the Tarzan monkey boy in this which was sort of like a side character in the second movie who I did not like that much in the second movie.

And if anybody like me thought he was just kind of like an annoying little sidekick in the Second movie.

This movie, he is like full on.

Like I wanted to jump through the screen and I was gonna.

If Sully was not gonna like chop his head off, I was gonna do it because this was the most annoying character in cinema in the last 25 years.

This kid, this punk ass kid, I do not care about him in his mask that keeps failing.

Yes, Neytiri was right.

Kill this kid.

Get.

Send him away.

I.

The fact that he's even called Monkey Boy, just great.

Set my soul.

I am.

Will open up an Etsy store.

Which T shirts to say fuck Monkey Boy.

I don't care.

I hate this kid so much.

And the fact that this whole movie is anchored by his emotional story is.

Is a crime to me because I do not care about him.

This whole movie could have been told about the tribes, the infighting with them.

I don't even care that Quaritch comes back and is recycling his story again.

But they have all these other great characters.

They have the family saga, but the fact that they've got this little kid tagging along and he is going to be the one, you know, the Neo or whatever he's going to be.

Jesus.

I'm just like.

I just don't give a fuck.

I don't know.

I really hated this decision.

And the whole movie is anchored on him.

Yeah, fuck Spider.

That is interesting to me.

But my question is, I would honestly like to know what you really think I was going to say.

No, I hear you.

I don't mind him.

I think he's fine.

I will say there are moments where I think that like he.

There are some acting moments where I feel like it's not his.

Like, not like the best acting in the world, but he doesn't.

I liked him in the way of water.

I don't mind him.

Like I put.

I hear what you're saying, but I enjoy his character.

So I don't feel any of that intense, you know, Jar Binks level hate.

No, it is.

He's worse than Majority Banks.

And also, you hit on a nerve, the writing of this.

And it's never.

It's ne.

It's most apparent with his, with his dialogue.

It's all throughout this movie.

I'm sorry, I'm kind of like on a roll right now.

But there is one that embarrasses me when he's.

Go ahead.

So there is a dialogue moment with him that really embarrasses me where he's riding the whale and he like turns to it.

I mean, I'm sorry he's riding The Tulkun, he turns to it, he's like, payakan, you're the man.

There's so much of that.

There's unintentionally comical dialogue throughout this movie.

And speaking of those whales, there's.

That's a whole nother thing that I was just like, I do not need 20 minutes of whale councils.

And there's the exiled whale, then it's.

They come back, then he's exiled again.

And I understand the purpose of the whale is because the.

The younger son, Loak, he loses his older brother.

So him, he bonds the whale and kind of replaces his brother, blah, blah, blah.

Which, you know, that's what I liked.

The sort of how to train your dragon ET thing that was going on in the second film.

That's what I.

Why the second film is higher for me.

What's the whale's name?

Pine.

So, and then P leaves.

And the fact that there are these really elaborate the font for the subtitles for what the whales say.

I was just like laughing out loud for what they say.

Hold up the joke.

Yeah, but.

Yeah, but the whale leaves after it's been exiled again, says something like, my song will never be heard again.

And I just laughed out loud.

Or something like that.

It was like, you'll never hear my song again.

Like, good.

Fair enough, fair enough.

There's unintentionally funny moments.

There was a couple of those.

There was more of those in this film than like a previous one.

Not.

But put it this way, you again, everything you say, it ties in perfectly to what I mean with plot and pacing issues.

Usually, you know, in a James Cameron thing, you know, things are set up and they're like planted early and paid off.

But the major reason for that third act battle was those Tulkun go there and they have that bonding thing.

And that's a huge plot point.

And the way you hear about it is Spider and Kiri happen to be like swimming there and like a Tulkun like passes by her leg and she's look, they're arriving.

The calves are arriving for the meeting.

And then there's one random dialogue scene later where the general is, we gotta go in and get these whales.

And then the scientists, you can't do that.

Then he's, no, this is where all the Amrita is.

We'll get all the.

But like that just is a plot thing that just kind of comes out of nowhere and is this sort of thin setup for this huge third act battle, which was repetitive even visually.

So from the way of water to the point where it had.

The battle took place during the eclipse, when the two planets line up and it gets dark and stuff like that.

I love that.

Yeah, that was so cool.

It did repeat that and.

But I'm getting off track.

I'll just say briefly.

I'm glad I saw it.

For me, these.

The reason I like seeing these movies multiple times is they're so visually dense.

I just am always, like, enamored, looking around the frame.

I'm glad I saw it a second time because I like the third battle, the ending battle in the third film a lot more the second time than I did the first.

I think the first time I was a little tired because I found the pacing in the middle of the film kind of repetitive and, like, just a bit tedious at times.

Yeah.

You know, you mentioned that.

A whole clips thing.

I love that.

It's such a great.

It's visually.

I did.

Visually.

But the thing is, they did this.

Didn't they do the same thing in the second movie?

They did the base.

They did the same.

The battle at the end of three was so identical to the battle at the end of two that I was almost taken aback the first time I saw it.

At the very least, what it does, though, that has a lot more.

You know, Toruk Macto comes back and the thing is, like, flying around.

There's so.

And then the squids that jump out and kill people when.

Yeah, there was.

There's a lot of cool, cool stuff happening in that battle.

It just, like, launches and it kind of pays homage to the first one.

But, like, I. I did like it better the second time I saw it.

The first time I was kind of overwhelmed, literally.

Kate Winslet Renal dies and then, like, she just.

As she has a baby, one of the Sons of the Reef people dies and I forget his name.

I didn't like.

And then General Ardmore, Eddie Falco literally gets sucked up into the, like, ion.

Well, don't they.

Isn't Giovanni Ribisi's character.

Everybody on that ship does.

Giovanni Ribisi was back on the.

I don't think he was on the ship.

Okay, Okay.

I think the.

The end battle, even though it's very similar to the end of the second movie, it is.

Give Cameron credit for that.

I was never, like, confused or lost.

He has such a great sense of space, and I thought it was paced pretty well.

And I could not think of the end of Return of the Jedi because I think Lucas, the way he stages, like, how there's, like, the macro, the micro and all the different battles going on.

The Death Star on Endor and with, you know, the Luke Vader.

I know I'm jumping around references, but it reminded me of how you've got different size little battles and wars happening at the same time.

And the way Cameron edited it, I felt like he was trying to capture the.

That style of editing a little bit and all I was thinking about how Jedi did it better, but I appreciated what I think Cameron was trying to do in that end battle.

And it was still very good.

But that was the first thing because I think in the end of Return of the Jedi is one of the best edited final battle sequences in cinema history.

It definitely does.

I mean, I.

And I really enjoyed seeing that.

And like, some of the shots are so cool.

They go by so fast as I mean.

And I noticed more detail seeing it again.

I totally agree.

I think Cameron's really good, like at like visual orientation and like in epic scale battles, knowing who and what is there.

And I just wanted to clarify and say too, when I say, like, when I say pacing issues, for me, I don't mean like, confused as, oh, I don't know where I am or what I'm watching.

I just mean that in the middle of.

At the beginning of the film, when they get on the flying ships with the traders, the wind traders, you have this long flowing sequence and then they get lost in the jungle.

And I was kind of like really into it at that point.

Once they get picked up and everyone comes back, there's a midsection of this film is totally coherent.

Never got lost.

I just found it, like you were saying, repetitive.

And there was a bit of pacing story issues for me.

And that's sort of the best way I can explain it.

I was still entertained, but for me, really liked first act, third act with the whole like, rescuing Jake from Bridgehead and then that final battle, I thought that was awesome.

So, like that third act helped it for me.

Oh, well.

But I totally agree with you.

I think even though I have a more like positive variation of your opinion, your points are total.

Like, I'm like nodding my head.

I'm not like, what I can't believe he didn't think.

Doesn't feel this is the greatest.

Because I feel the same thing.

The thing is, you know what it is when, when Avatar movies come out, I'm so like, invested them because I like the visuals in the world so much.

I just want there to be like, I really want to get to that fourth film and I hope it has a better story than this one.

And I think it will from everything I've heard about it.

And I just want it to happen because I don't want the saga to end with what we just saw, even though I enjoyed it.

Yeah, I'm.

I want to share your optimism.

I'm concerned.

I mean, I'm glad to hear that.

This was supposed to be one film that was split into two.

I'm probably done because they made now $6 billion instead of three or whatever.

You know, that's probably the idea.

But at the same time like whatever this fourth film was going to be.

And I, you know what, I made a note here that, yeah, show me something new, bring me to a different world, bring it to Earth, you know, I don't care.

The fourth one has an eight year time jump in it and apparently something catastrophic like cataclysmic, climate wise happens, dies.

I had such a good point that you said something like one second ago.

Oh, that's what you say.

That this one feels like the Way of Water Part two.

I will say that this movie doesn't.

I enjoyed it, but doesn't quite stand alone by itself as the other two.

Avatar, big grandiose storytelling.

The whole world loves it.

Avatar Way of Water, yes.

Critics said it was like followed the beats of the first one.

Fair enough.

I thought it inverted the first one in a really cool way, but it was this huge.

Now it's like the first one's the forest movie, the second one is the water movie.

And this film seemed more focused like it, this movie turned inward on itself and almost the storytelling style.

You damn well have better have watched the first two to follow what was going on.

Not that I don't mind that, but the movie was more like episodic.

And it's the grief, the story, the all cool like story ideas.

It was just the storytelling, the pacing of it for me sometimes, if that makes sense.

I have no problems with him approaching the themes of this.

I mean there's some great stuff in here.

He's dealing grief and faith and you know, parenthood and the, you know, cultural identity.

All these things are themes that are brought up in this movie.

And I just.

But it does have a very muddled feel to it.

There's no, I don't know what he's still trying to.

There's nothing complete in this whole thing.

What I guess I'm also trying to say is that every time I feel like the movies trying to reach some emotional touchstone with these themes, it goes and does something dumb.

And it has a lot to do with the writing of it.

I don't know, like the very end of this.

And I know I already talked about the writing, but the very end of this big epic thing we learned.

Spider is now truly connected with Iowa and his identities are converged.

Big emotional moment.

The final line of this movie.

Sam, what is it?

Oh, damn.

No, it's.

Spider says no.

That was.

I understand.

That was funny to me.

I think that was like, like, yeah.

But it's like we're supposed to be this big spiritual, emotional moment.

He's like, no, you have a visual visceral, like fixation negative.

Like you have hate towards Spider.

There is hate.

It's not even.

It's not, it's not even that.

It was.

Am I supposed to take it as, oh, that's kind of funny, or was it like.

It feels like.

I thought it was hilarious.

I was like.

But I feel like that would not have been done in the first movie, you know?

Yeah.

Okay.

I mean, I feel like it's.

Am I watching the.

Is like a bro.

He's like a, you know, he's like the son of a marine.

He's like kind of a broish dude.

That's his character.

I don't know, but I know what you're saying.

I don't know.

I feel like it was unintentionally funny.

Yeah.

So, you know, looking ahead, it sounds like, you know a little bit more about what.

Where you think this is going.

I read about it, like obsessive.

But I will say I, I, you know what it is?

I like big, long, like memorable action sequences.

There's a Tulkun hunt in the second one that I love.

The final battle.

Met this movie in the.

In its midsection, had a lot of like, repetitive skirmishes where they fight and then they're captured and they split up and they fight and they're captured.

And it.

I was like.

I felt like I was spinning wheels a little bit in the middle of this movie.

And like you said, I'm saying the same thing over a million times.

But that's where it felt like when I mean pacing, I mean that a whole, A whole bunch of bits happen in the middle.

But it felt fractured and I wanted that more.

Let's go to the volcano and meet the ash people and have an hour in this new clan and immerse ourselves in a fire world.

And instead she just like flies in while they're.

She just comes into the plot, hey, I'm going to raid this ship.

And it's just, eh.

Even though that was A.

That was one of the best action scenes in the thing.

Also, a shout out to Davis David Thulis, who is in the movie for a second.

Yeah, you can't get on my boat.

Okay.

You can get on my boat.

Hey, I'm here.

See you later.

Is it.

Am I being way too hard in this movie when I say that if they're trying to travel in obscurity, why would they take the most audacious ride there is on the planet to travel?

I mean, like, they're.

I mean, like, aren't there more?

Yeah, it's like, they don't want to be found.

And they're taking these giant, like, balloons like, that are like.

It's like a party in the sky.

Yeah.

Like, I think you'll be noticed, you know, like that.

That there was a thing where it's like, they're like, we have to hide.

We have to hide.

And then they're like, we got to send Spider away.

They're like, all right, let's go with a family road trip.

And it's like, you know, all right, I'm thinking vacation.

Like, cue, like, the Griswold music, you know?

I don't know.

Yeah, that was a little bit.

Like, even though those technically, those wind traders go back and forth all the time, but they're hiding on their ship, but they aren't.

They're, like, dancing up on the top.

When the bad guy has that cities.

Yo.

I gave this guy a keg of beer to find out this information.

He just shows a picture of him.

Like, well, that was a dumb move on their part.

You know, that's what I mean.

There's, like, random occurrences in this movie where it's just.

It's just like some setups like that.

The midsection has a lot of those that, like, I'm just like, I'll give a shout out.

The guy with the.

Who lost his arm in the second movie and I forgot the actor's name.

The whale.

The Tulkun hunting guy.

Yeah.

Love that bad guy.

And I did enjoy his death when he got eaten and he was, like, pulled down underwater.

That was cool.

I did not see this movie in 3D.

I did not go to the IMAX.

I just saw this in Standard.

God.

I. I didn't.

But I'm guessing, though, if you did see it, I noticed that they probably made it very obvious that he had a prosthetic arm, because I felt like they kept putting that right in front of the lens the whole movie.

He favored that the whole time.

Like, I. I Can understand if you don't want to go through the movie again, but if you ever decide to go, like, the 3D is so awesome because it goes back.

It's like looking out a window.

Like, I watch it in IMAX 3D, and that is literally, like, the reason why the, like.

Why the movie is like those.

The visuals.

The 3D is spectacular.

Yeah.

I can't imagine I would have trouble going to the theater and not watching that.

That this might be why I have nitpicks with this movie, Sam.

Because I didn't watch it in the spectacular IMAX 3D, because I'm watching this for the story.

What the hell?

Huh?

No, no, no, no.

I mean, of course the story, but I'm saying, like, the whole visual, like, the movie is designed for IMAX 3D.

So as a filmmaker, I would think you would want to go to what it was designed for.

And if you defy that, it just makes you look kind of stupid.

I had a free.

I had a free ticket, you know.

Oh, there you go.

Okay, so.

I mean, not really, but, you know, I. Yeah, you're right.

All right.

Want to take a quick break?

We'll come back with our final thought and our ranking, our review and decision.

Sounds good.

Now what's the matter?

I'll never dance again.

I'm a cripple.

Pure hysteria.

You've made yourself believe that isn't true.

It is.

Otherwise you'd fight.

What is there to fight for?

Ah, you see?

You admit it.

What is there to fight for?

Everything.

Life itself.

Isn't that enough?

To be lived, suffered, enjoyed?

What is there to fight for?

Life is a beautiful, magnificent thing, even to a jellyfish.

What is there to fight for besides you?

You have your art, your dancing.

I can't dance without legs.

I know a man without arms who can play a scherzo on a violin and does it all with his toes.

The trouble is, you won't fight.

You've given in, continually dwelling on sickness and death.

But there's something just as inevitable as death, and that's life.

Life.

Life.

Life.

The dialogue.

Fire and ash is way better.

The dialogue in Fire, way better.

Lois, note.

Yes.

All right, Sam, let's get to our ratings and our decision on this.

Any last minute thoughts?

Have we.

I have.

We all have we said it all?

Sigourney Weaver was good as always.

Yeah.

Do you think.

Do you think even though they were in Mocap, she really kissed that spider kid?

I don't know.

And he's what, 8?

17, 18 at the time, I'M curious about that.

I think it's possible.

Yeah.

And I would be lying if I said that didn't cross my mind when I watched that scene.

I think the audience.

Okay, give it.

Give me one to five stars.

You're the man.

Piacon.

I would say for this movie, I would give it.

Let me see.

You know, I was gonna give it three but because of some spectacular visual moments and I love the franchise, I would give it.

I'll give it 3.5.

I'll be a little generous.

You gonna save this or you gonna purge it?

I feel like I have to save it out of a sense of identity.

Who would I be if after all this time I like turned my back on Avatar?

So I guess I have to.

I just have to say that I want to say it.

Yeah.

All right.

Well at the end of the day I think I'm giving this two and a half out of five for me.

And right in the middle it's.

I'm not down.

I think there's so much that just drives me up a wall in this movie.

But the visuals still I think are incredible.

Again I only saw it in standard.

But Pandora remains a miracle of world building.

But narratively I think this film is really stumbling and it's just repeating old beats and delays story development, character development and a sidelines the most interesting characters and that I think is a crime and over invest in the wrong ones.

So and.

And undercuts itself with tone deaf dialogue.

So.

Yeah, it's not.

Yeah, it's.

And I think that it lessens the value of the previous movie.

Even though I did like it way of water.

But.

Yeah.

So no, Sam will not save this.

No.

Now we.

This does not happen very often because there's only two of us here, you know.

But I guess we.

It's not a majority so we have to.

What do we do?

Do we not make a decision on this or how do we.

In the past.

Here's what we do.

We take all our recording equipment, we go to the beach, we stand there and we like whistle at the ocean and get those whales to come out of the water.

And we have this big like council tribunal where all the Tulkun decide and pass a vote.

Last time, last time we had a split like this, we tabled it until we were able to get a majority.

So by the laws of regularness let's do that again.

Okay.

So we'll table whether we save this.

Or purge it until Mark Crawcheck back here.

See we can't stack the deck Though.

With anyone.

So we'll have to see.

All right, so we'll do that for now and we will move on to our next segment tonight.

Our recommendations should.

Excuse me.

Can you help me?

I'm at an absolute loss.

I've been looking for over an hour and I'm losing my mind.

What I'm in the mood for is sort of a Katharine Hepburny Cary Granted kind of thing.

Nothing heavy.

I couldn't take heavy.

No.

Something zany.

I'm looking for something zany.

Or something modern would be fine too.

Like a Goldie Honey, Chevy Chasey kind of thing.

You know, funny.

I want to laugh.

I have to laugh tonight, really.

Oh, oh, oh.

Do you have anything with that comedian?

He's on that show.

It's on the radio.

You know the guy, he says, hey, forgive me.

I get such a kick out of the way he says that.

He's so goddamn adorable.

That would be perfect.

Didn't he make a movie?

Ordinary People.

Here we are with our recommendation shelf this week, and this time we have a category for recommendation shelf.

Humans are the real enemy.

Thought of this at the last minute the other night, so.

Telling you, I'm getting desperate with these.

Sam, no.

Chime in anytime.

Any.

Anybody out there listening?

All right.

You know, do you want me to go first?

If you're still thinking of something or.

How do you.

What do you think?

You go.

Yeah, you go first.

Sounds good.

I'll go first.

Okay.

So I think that I picked this category because I thought of the movie first and then I realized, how can I.

How can I pigeonhole in this movie into tonight's episode?

Because I've been kind of wanting to watch this again for a while because I've been just in such a great mood.

My.

My pick tonight is.

I think it's just one of the best horror movies of the century.

Love it.

Yeah, yeah.

It's sharp, unsettlingly unsettled.

Settling commentary on society.

And in a lot of ways you can see it laying the groundwork for the paranoia and post apocalyptic world that Darabont would later explore in the Walking Dead in the first season of the Walking Dead.

Cast is terrific.

Thomas Jane.

Probably the best thing Thomas Jane, I think ever did.

He's this father who's desperately just trying to protect his son and make sense of this impossible situation.

And supporting cast of who's who of character actors Toby Jones, William Sadler, Andre Brower, who we lost a couple years ago, which is Too bad.

Marsha Gay Harden and I think it has a couple actors that were in Walking dead like Melissa McBride and there's one other one, I forget.

But anyways, they.

So they reunite on that show.

So if you haven't seen the Supremacist, simple, it's deeply effective.

There's this mist that descends on this small town in Maine because why not in Maine and the town people barricade themselves in the supermarket and.

But that's where the real story unfolds, that the monsters are in the mist.

But the real danger is the people that are trapped inside and they're all turning each other.

And as you know, the faith, fear, desperation, it all collide.

So it really is the people inside that are the monsters.

So it's just a great character study and how people from different backgrounds and belief systems are just trying and failing to come together to win.

Survival's on the line and it's.

This movie does not pull its punches.

It's great, but you will not walk away feeling great.

So consider that a warning.

You can't go out.

I won't allow it.

Won't allow it.

It's against God's will.

Don't you know that by now?

Haven't I proven myself again and again and again?

Haven't I shown that I am his vessel?

What's the matter?

What's the matter with you?

Don't you believe in God?

No one's interfered with you.

All we're asking for is the same privilege.

You heard him.

It is these people who brought this upon us.

They.

People who refuse to bend to the will of God and claim it.

Frizzle, sinners and pride.

Yes, haughty, privileged.

They mock us.

They mock our God, our faith, our values, our very lifestyle.

They mock our humility and our piousness.

They piss on us and laugh.

It's from them the blood of human sacrifice must come.

I won't give anything away, but is this not the film that has that shocking ending to it?

Yeah, it's got a pretty harsh ending.

That when I saw that I was like.

It's like you like.

It's.

It does not go where you expect it's gonna go.

Oh, my God.

And.

And I think there.

Yeah, that's all I'll say.

So, yeah, it is not a good time for.

In that regards.

But it is such a well done film.

Yeah, that's my pick.

That's awesome.

That's a great.

I actually really want to see that again because I. I saw that movie, I think on TV for the first time I didn't know what it was and I had come in the first two minutes and I just sat there and watched the whole movie.

Yeah, it's a Stephen King adaptation.

It's probably one of the best two or three adaptations of his.

So Absolutely, yeah, watch it.

Because he just want to feel good about life.

Yeah, I agree.

Yeah, yeah.

If you really want to feel good about life, don't you want to see your close friend Spider in IMAX 3D facing you and the audience being like, bro, how's it going, bro?

Look at me, bro.

Yes.

I could not help myself.

Three stories high of Spider.

Yeah.

So my film where the Enemy Is Us, I've gone a lighter hearted route.

But look, you have natures, you have bees, you have ants and you just have creatures that just want to exist.

You know, they want to enjoy their life.

And here comes a bunch of humans that build houses around them and suburbs and stuff like that.

The humans are awful.

And not only that, but one of the humans does physical, scientific damage to his own children by accident by building a shrinking machine.

Oh, wow.

We are the enemy because, you know, we, the people, screw everything up.

And so these kids, not knowing that humanity is truly the enemy, they're just trying to get home in a yard, trying to get back to their house and their parents.

And there's barely, barely redemption at the end, but they make it and there's a little bit of hope.

I called the police.

What's on your head?

I was looking for the kids.

We are in a coal mine.

They're in the backyard.

They are.

Diane, I got something real important to tell you.

That is the couch from the attic.

You can see the marks where Quark chewed the arms.

I found it on the floor.

It's my thinking couch.

Wayne.

Are you trying to tell me.

You did.

Works?

The machine works.

Do the kids know?

Well, yeah, the kids know.

That's great.

It's not that great.

Why?

I shrunk the kids.

What?

I did watch it with my kids a couple years ago and we had a great time because I grew up with that and I love that movie.

I introduced it to them, so that was a lot of fun.

Rick Moranis and making a big comeback in a year reprising his role in Spaceballs 2 he hasn't acted in 20 years.

That's.

I can't wait to see that.

I hope that movie.

That's gonna.

It's crazy.

Yeah, yeah.

Dark Helmet.

He's coming back.

Did your kids like Honey I Shrunk the Kids?

They did.

They did, I think.

And then we watched the.

Which.

Which one is the sequel?

Is it Honey I Blew up the Kid?

Yes, yes.

Not as good, but still as good.

We should review that one.

The whole franchise.

We pulled the franchise.

Yeah, we got.

Hein.

That would be much more lucrative if we reviewed the Land Before Time franchise because there's like 16 of them and little foot never grows up.

Honey, I shrunk the kids.

Honey, I Blew up the kid.

Honey, I shrunk the audience.

Wait, that's a theme park movie.

That's a theme park ride.

The third one was Honey, We Shrunk Ourselves.

Do you know that it's the same director for all of these?

Wayne Solinsky.

Is this guy done anything else or is this his claim to fame?

I feel bad if this is like.

Wayne Zielinski is Rick Moranis's character name.

That's the direct.

Oh, that's.

No, sorry.

That's the role.

Who's the director?

Sorry, I'm thinking I looked at the wrong thing.

There's different directors for each.

Who directed Honey.

Thank God.

I was worried that like one director, that's all he did, is like these movies.

Movies.

It's like I made all the Honey I Shrunk movies and that's all I did.

No, JoJo.

Joe Johnston.

Yeah, he's a legit guy.

He makes movies.

He did the Rocketeer, the Page Master, Jumanji, October.

Oh, Jurassic Park 3.

Underrated Jurassic park movie.

He did Hildalgo.

We were kind of talking about Hildago, I think, or something.

We were.

Randall Kleiser directed Honey, I Blew up the Kid.

Okay, sorry, Randall.

Okay, we went off topic.

Okay, good pick is I blow.

The kid has some good scenes at Glitter Gulch, which is in.

In Vegas at the end of that when the kid is so big.

But anyway, yeah, I just remember in the film.

Is Honey, I Blew up the Kid streaming anymore or is it just on vod?

Do you know, I think you can just rent it or like, I'm not sure where it's streaming, but I. I watched it like this past September.

Okay.

I was checking and the Mist is streaming on for free on the Roku Channel.

Plex.

And you can rent it on vod.

So there you have it couple movies to check out that we recommend.

All right, Sam, I think that does it for this week.

We are lean and mean this week at the hour mark.

I think we're pretty efficient.

All right, so I'll say what I gotta quote Natam, it's good to see you, bro.

But how did I die?

Maybe a few honorable mentions, maybe other.

Maybe a few other things about what we liked about last year in movies.

But look for that.

Can't wait for that episode.

Always a fun one.

And beyond that, I don't know what the future is for the show.

We'll see get these episodes done and we'll see where we're at with things.

But this has been fun, kind of bringing this show back in a small capacity this fall.

Sam, it's been fun.

It's been fun.

There.

There may be more as we are investing in a new casino which will directly fund this podcast.

Hey, it's not about the money.

It's about the time more than anything for me.

But that was the guy.

Avatar 3 said, let's make some bang.

So that is our show for this week.

Back to the Frame Rate is part of the Weston Media Podcast Network.

Special thanks to Brian Ellsworth for our show opening.

On behalf of all of us, we bid you farewell from the Fallout Shelter.

If you're enjoying the show, please subscribe and leave a rating and review on Apple Podcast, Podcast, Spotify or your favorite podcast platform.

You'll always find our episodes@backtotheframerate.com this is the end of our transmission.

Back to the Frame Rate.

Signing off.

Want you to know it's over.

Well.

Bye Bye.