Keywords

Lion of Judah podcast, Elder Frederick Nunn Jr., public speaking, God's love, healing testimonies, apologetics, church humor, faith, ministry, personal testimony Summary In this episode of the Lion of Judah podcast, hosts Marcus Green and Benjamin Miller welcome Elder Frederick Nunn Jr. to discuss his journey in ministry, the importance of public speaking, and the profound love of God as expressed in scripture. They share personal testimonies of healing, the role of apologetics in defending the faith, and humorous moments from church life. The conversation emphasizes the significance of understanding God's love and the power of faith in overcoming life's challenges. Takeaways Elder Frederick Nunn Jr. has been in ministry since he was 13 years old. Public speaking can be nerve-wracking, but it's important to focus on supportive faces in the audience. Understanding God's love is crucial for believers, especially as expressed in John 17. Personal testimonies of healing can strengthen faith and encourage others. Apologetics is about defending the faith with love, not just winning arguments. Humor can be a relief in heavy situations, even in church settings. The importance of reading and studying scripture to understand one's faith better. Faith is a lifestyle, not just a momentary act of belief. The church should be a place where the gifts of the Spirit are actively present. Personal experiences of healing can serve as powerful testimonies of God's work.

Music Credits

Intro Music by Xtra $avage

Outro Music by Forged Faith Music - "Lion of Judah" Special Thanks to C.D. for allowing us to play his music! Be sure to support his channel Forged Faith Music on Youtube, Spotify, and Apple Music. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCNZXykiNGRVvqo9os2bdyTw

He's putting straight fire!!

Titles

Exploring God's Love Through Testimonies

The Journey of Faith and Healing

Fred's Book List

Urban Apologetics 1 & 2 by Eric Mason

Two Kinds of Faith by E.W. Kenyon

Good Morning Holy Spirit by Benny Hinn

Let the World See You by Sam Acho

Your Purpose is Calling by Dr. Dharius Daniels

Chapters

00:00 Introduction and Guest Introduction

02:27 Elder Frederick Nunn Jr.'s Background and Ministry Journey

06:09 The Influence of Family on Ministry

09:07 First Sermon Experience at Age 13

12:52 Nervousness and Public Speaking Techniques

20:46 Teaching vs. Preaching: Emotionalism in Church

24:52 Understanding God's Love Through Scripture

31:31 Encouraging Exploration of the Bible

34:01 God's Unconditional Love and Forgiveness

35:22 Personal Testimonies of Healing

50:36 Faith and Miracles in Everyday Life

01:05:50 The Importance of Apologetics in Faith

01:11:50 The Importance of Biblical Knowledge

01:14:13 Apologetics: A Defense of Faith

01:19:27 The Role of Information in Faith

01:22:11 Conversion Stories: From Other Faiths to Christianity

01:27:08 Reading and Learning: The Journey of Knowledge

01:30:58 The Rabbi's Secret Message: A Revelation

01:33:18 Finding Humor in Serious Moments

01:45:48 "Lion of Judah" - Forged Faith Music

Welcome on in, den folk. Come on in. Welcome back. to another episode of Lion of Judah podcast. I'm your host Marcus Green. I'm your co-host Benjamin Miller. And today we have with us a friend and brother of ours. And man, was going to just sit down and chop it up with us for a little bit from the Eternal Life Worship Center.

Elder Frederick Nunn Jr. Come on, give him a hand to welcome him in here. Thanks for coming on. Thank you for joining us today. And not just him, we also have another

of little guest here. My only son, Michael Emmanuel Green. Go ahead and wave for a quick son. All right. He wanted to.

He didn't wanna be left out. saw his sister was on the first episode, so he wanted to get in and show his face one time. And hopefully I won't have to show my parenting prowess while we're recording. Hopefully he'll sit down and stay in that

place. But before we get ready to start, we're gonna ask our guest of honor to lead us into a word of prayer. Elder, if you would. Yeah, Father, in name of Jesus, we thank you right now, God, for this time of fellowship, this time of...

talking and discussing your word. Father, we just ask you right now, God, that as we record this podcast, God, that it reaches the people it need to reach and that lives are changed and people are ⁓ get to meet you and learn more about you, God. And we just thank you right now, God, for Marcus and Ben. God, we just give you praise going on for this podcast. God, I pray, God, nothing but blessings and success with this podcast. God, Father, we just give you our praise going on and Jesus, then we pray. Amen. Amen. right. All right.

Right,

man, we just wanted to have you on here. Whenever we first started here and started going through the planning process, we were throwing out names and almost immediately I was like, I gotta get Fred on there. One of the young brothers out here preaching and carrying of the word, man, one who is well versed and...

loves the word and is a scholar in his own right and can teach us a few things. And man, we love to dig into the word and pick your brain on some things and get your thoughts. And man, just tell us a little bit about you. Give the listeners a background of who you are. Yeah, no problem, man. You put a lot on there, man, saying I'm a scholar. I'm still learning and still growing, man. I don't think we ever get to a point where we can.

confidently say that we know some things, guess. But yeah, I've been in ministry, man, for quite some time. I preached my first message when I was 13. Wow. And I'm 41 now. So yeah, been around it for, you know, around the block for a while. With that,

and ⁓ still learning man and I went to Bible college or Bible school in in Rayma in Oklahoma, Rayma Bible College or it was called the Rayma Training Center then. ⁓ But now I think they're full, full fledged college now ⁓ and did that for two years ⁓ and majored in the, you know, youth ministry while was there and ⁓ been been back home with my father, eternal life worship center. And so shout out to you all. If you see this.

⁓ But yeah, I've been working with him ever since I got back. And ⁓ obviously we are a part of the Heart of America Council of Churches. And I've been in position there ⁓ in the youth ministry. ⁓ I was the vice president for a while. ⁓

then moved into the ⁓ as a president of the young people. And so I served about 10 years within the P.A.W. ⁓ You know, Council, Heart of America Council of Churches. And so ⁓ that's just a quick, you know, cover of my background, I guess, from a from a ministry standpoint. And I remember I've always, always ⁓ seen you involved in a lot. And ⁓ I'm like, OK, he's not that much younger than me, but this dude.

is putting in work like an old grown man. And that was years ago. I'm like, man, he president of this, vice president that, and all that. I'm like, dude, when do you ever get some time for you? You just seem to always be on the

and always have your hand in something, whether it be in stuff on the council level or stuff serving the, yeah, like I said, the council and P.A.W. and all that stuff. And you just seem like to always have had your hand in something and never let.

Gras a moss grow around your feet just always seem to been on the move and making big moves, man

Man, I can applaud that because, like I said, they're not too much younger than me, but I'm like, maybe I need to start getting into doing a whole lot more. Man, I think I get that from my parents. My mom and my father, they've always worked in the council in some capacity. My mom, since she was 16, she's just now getting out of being the women's president. So she's been in office literally in some type of capacity since she was 16 years old.

And my father, know, right behind her with that and ⁓ working and serving and so ⁓ even growing up in church, ⁓ that's all I saw was them working in ministry. So that's what I thought it was supposed to be. ⁓

if I was to go back and do some different things, you know, things may not look the same as they do now, but I mean, as they did. But, ⁓ you know, like you said, you.

I think we do a disservice as young people when it comes to churches, you always push them into ministry and to some aspect of that and you don't allow them to really enjoy their childhood and their, you know, as they're growing up when it comes to that. saying my parents didn't, but it was more so what I saw. I, you know, I tried to be that versus them saying, you need to do this, you need to do this. So, you know, I want to make that clear.

that it wasn't my parents that pushed anything. It was just me wanting to be pleasing to them and looking at what they did and wanting to be like my father. My mom and my dad says it all the time when, I don't know, I might have been around your son's age and he was up in service and he was standing in the pulpit and he would always put his stand with his hand like this when he's listening. And he looked out and I was in the audience.

as a kid trying to figure out which hand he had on his face so that I can be just like him. So that's what that came from. ⁓ Man, so 13 years old. 13. 13. You started mimicking him from the pew younger than that. then what was that first message? What is a 13-year-old telling grown adults? Listen, it was for youth service. OK.

And so let me, to answer your question, but let me go back real quick. was six years old, six and a half.

And ⁓ we went to Bethel Pentecostal Church, New Bethel. And Bishop Ruben Johnson, the late Bishop Ruben Johnson was our pastor. And he had ⁓ a ⁓ prophet come in. And he was from Africa. And I can't think of his name, Kingsley. ⁓ Yeah, Prophet Kingsley. And ⁓ I remember I was busy as a kid. I was always your typical boy, just always into something, doing something.

And I remember getting up in service and he stopped me in the middle of the service. He was preaching in the middle of the service. He stopped me and he brought me back. He told me to come and sit on the front row. And he prophesied to me and said, in six years, you'll preach your first message. He said, and there's some things that he said over my life.

⁓ that some of them haven't come in the past yet. but literally what he prophesied on me is literally what I've, ⁓ gone through and been into my life. And I mean, I was at six and so sometimes frustrating of that. had to follow this path, you know, even when I didn't really want to, ⁓ it's just how God led my life. So preached my first message at 13. and the message was entitled.

It's Tasting Time. I don't know what titles for your message. I 13. we'll probably talk about that a little bit later. But I remember it was Tasting Time. it was.

in my mind as it now as an adult, it was such a the most corniest message. We're are we're always are our harshest critic like we think about that. I should have said that. We're always our harshest critic. So what you may think may been corny. Someone else like man, this dude is preaching and been inspired by a prepubescent boy. Yeah. Do anything. Yeah. So I came out of Sobs 34 and

I remember my father when I was back in the office again as a 13 year old.

acting like I'm a grown man. I'm sitting back in the office and dad, know, preparing, you know how to preach a dude. They go back and they don't come right away. Have you an adjutant with you? No, dad. So when he was in office ⁓ and ⁓ he tells me, he said, ⁓ don't be afraid of their faces. ⁓ And that is one thing that I take with me still to this day, because ⁓ I get nervous still getting up to preach. And I think

that if you don't feel that nervousness, I think that may be a problem. ⁓ And so he always said, find someone in the audience that you know has your back and you focus on them. And so I still use that advice to this day when I preach, especially if I'm not at my home church or if I'm somewhere else that ⁓ I normally don't ⁓ fellowship on a regular basis with. I look for my wife. I look for someone that

that is engaged that I can kind of stay focused on versus, you know, just kind of help my nervousness. So, yeah. So yeah, when in the places and the times I've gone outside of, you know, my church home and spoke, I've been a little bit more.

Relax. I'm like, y'all don't know me. I don't care if they think it's wax. So I ain't gonna see you again. So yeah, but if it's if it's in my home church, then I'm a man. They might have something to say next week or whatever. So I'm kind of the opposite. Whenever I'm at in my home church, I'm a little bit more, you know, knee knocking. But it's it's I've been pretty since I was 18. I haven't.

gone to the point where I'm not nervous. I'm just a little less nervous someplace else. But yeah, you're right. There's not a time yet where I have not been like sweating bullcrap. man, how's this gonna go? And I never knew that time before the preacher comes up and they'll be in the office.

Like, what are they doing there? Now I know, well, at least me, I'm in there trying to settle my nerves. Okay, let me get this together. I'll go through everything in my head and rarely, if ever, matter of fact, never does it go how I practice it in my head. It always goes, some part of that did not go as planned. But in the office, I don't know what the old heads do, how they do it. But when I'm in that office, I'm praying like, Lord, don't let me.

mess up, regulate my mind, let me remember everything. I don't even know why I have notes, because I always go off notes. I might have a couple bullet points, but after a while, I just walk away from the podium, and I'm not even looking at my notes, and I forget to say half the stuff that I meant to. So yeah, I'm a wreck somewhat whenever it comes to speaking to the folks, too. So yeah, I feel that. Trying to find somebody to focus on.

But really, I gotta keep my eyes moving. Cuz if I stay looking at my wife, she'll probably be like, what you looking at me for? I ain't doing that for you,

for me, I can't stay in office as long. And I think I get that from my father. I got to be in the praise and worship. But also for me is I always look for direction from the Holy Spirit while I'm in those moments to give confirmation of, I on the, was I on the right track with this message that I prepared ⁓ that I felt that this is what guys want me to say. And so I always look for that confirmation of

somebody may say something that or quote a scripture that's a part of my message or do something and that lets me know, okay, you were, you know, you were in the vein and ⁓ so then I can just kind of relax a little bit more and go from there. But I remember times.

man that I'm so glad certain pool pits weren't glass and they were able to see these legs shaking. I remember the first time when I lived in Oklahoma, the church I went to there, I had a...

first time preaching on there, used to have ministers together on Tuesday nights and he would get that's there. That was a time for them to get an opportunity to preach. And I mean, it wasn't a lot of was a big church, one of the largest churches on the north side of Tulsa. But it was, you know, wasn't a lot of people that come out on Tuesday night services. And so so it wasn't a lot of audience, but still, you know, people that I've grown to be great friends with. And so I'm standing there and I am. I mean, I'm

nervous and I'm like my leg is shaking and I'm like I'm so glad you know but I appreciate those jitters because it keeps you humble. ⁓

public speaking class, not by my choice, but when I was working for my last employer, they have everybody go through these courses. And one of the most beneficial things I got out of that, because I've done a lot of different types of public speaking, but I would always get nervous and it'd always be like, you're just kind of, I think most people's natural thing is I'm just dreading getting in front of this large group of people. It's not like, you know you're prepared.

Right. are very well prepared. what they did was they recorded us and then made us watch ourselves. It was just kind of spur of the moment. Get up and give a speech on whatever topic. So you give a four minute speech and that's how you start the class. Then you watch yourself. And then they teach you these these ⁓ just kind of tactics and then have you do it again. Well, the main one that helped me a lot was.

really think about before you go out, probably when you're in the office praying or whatever.

before you even come out, just prepare yourself mentally, take yourself to a place of like, what is one of the happiest moments you've ever been in? And think about that and come in with high energy, you know, concentrating on that, whatever that happy moment was. And your energy comes across so much better just from the jump. And that's just a, that's just one little tactic that they taught us for public speaking, but certainly, you know, preaching is the highest level of public speaking, in my opinion. So they didn't teach you that method.

of looking at everybody in their drawers. I've heard that. That's never worked for me. Nope. I don't want to picture it. Old church mother. Or the banks or whatever. Elsewhere, like I've done public speaking outside of the church and even when I was in the Air Force, they had us go through

training for non-commissioned officers and sergeants and all that before we got promoted. You need to go through ⁓ some training before you got your sergeant stripe. And one of my classes was public speaking. Now, it seems to me like once you've been preaching for a while, everything else seems kind of easy. Like I can get up and talk about whatever and being no sweat. ⁓

Even now in school, ⁓ I've had to get up and do presentations. And I work with a bunch of HVAC technicians. They're not public speakers. They're just blue collar guys. They're sweating bullets. And what am I going to do with me? like, this ain't nothing. I'll get up there and do this in my sleep. And not to honk my own horn, but no beep beep. ⁓ They'll be like, you so relaxed up there. And this, that, and everything. Yeah.

once you've been preaching and church folks can be some of the harshest critics. ⁓ So if you can make it in front of church folks, you can talk in front of a board meeting, a classroom of kids and whatnot. Well, I'll say a classroom of kids, they'll probably be your next hardest audience, because they'll be laughing and.

Kids don't care. That's that you see the same kids in church laughing and sleeping. I know because I used to be one of them kids. So but yeah, I feel like once you are able and have done in a while and behind a podium at church anyplace else. Okay, I'll do that. No problem. It's it's easy work for me on that. Yeah. Well, you came from dumping a carton of milk on your head in high school in front of the whole school.

Public speaking should be easy after that. What is this carton of milk? I don't even do that. It was a talent show. Yeah, it had nothing to do with what talent it took. I don't know. It was just like a I don't know to get some extra applause. It just ran up and I just dumped the carton of milk on my head and I got applause. I don't know. But it had nothing to do with public speaking. I was washing milk out my hair because it dried up. It was hot. It was towards the end of the school year. And I had to go to work after that. So it was not.

That was not cool. But yeah, that is, that's just how we do preaching and learning how to speak publicly. And not just that, but like, it seemed like teaching in a teaching setting, a little bit, seemed like a little bit less nerve wracking to me. It seems like it's a little more relaxed in some of our.

small groups at church will have like the men and ⁓ It's like you don't have to and I hate I hate the fact that There is a level of emotionalism at church, but it's a level of emotionalism And if you don't see people react in a certain way like is what I'm saying not connecting right in any kind of way

Teaching I don't really feel like it's the same thing not that you're trying to get anybody to move But you just want to know that what you're saying people are receiving and it's hard to kind of tell that if they're just sitting there Right show me some kind of you know blink your eyes do something to let me know that you're hearing what I'm saying But when you're teaching, that's like, okay

like in a classroom, there ain't no motion in the classroom. They can be taking in all that's being said and you not know it. And like whenever I'm in a teaching setting, can talk. I feel like I'm talking just like I'm talking to you all. I don't feel any kind of pressure to get anybody to ⁓ move or do anything else because I feel like they probably are receiving what I'm saying because there's no pressure. They're just sitting around talking. Right. Yeah, I think I agree. ⁓

I think just in general with the black church, ⁓ there's a lot of emotionalism that comes into playing. I mean, think that's just our culture in general. ⁓ So I totally get it. ⁓ It's definitely a lot easier, at least for me, to teach than it is to preach. ⁓ My dad is your preacher's preacher.

the, you know, the hype miss the everything about it, you know, that's that's him, I get it from him. But I had the best of both worlds with my mother and my mother was it's just a very practical teacher. ⁓ And she's able to dissect the word and presented, you know, in a very ⁓ life, you know, applicable way. And so ⁓

I think I probably enjoy as much as I've preached throughout these years, I think I enjoy teaching more than anything ⁓ because for me, I get excited of finding the connections through the word of God. so in my own study, I'd be like,

who can I call that's gonna have the same level of excitement versus someone that's just gonna be like, oh, oh, that's good. then just get up and say, no, I want you to be excited like I am and get engaged. Yeah, so I have certain friends I may call and I'm like, hey, yo, I just found this connection. I found this or, you know, I found Jesus in the Old Testament, you know, and things like that. And it's just, that stuff excites me probably more than anything. I was like that with my wife, we just got done.

I think she's doing our reading through the Bible in a year and we would go back and forth like, look what I found here. And it would be stuff that like we never, we never seen before, never really made a conscious effort to pay attention to. And we were just like that we would get excited to just the littlest thing. And I think we were looking at something, talking about something last night about Zachariah being martyred.

and she said something to me and I gave a, I had a reaction to it ⁓ and then I went and looked at it myself because she was telling me about it and sometimes she'll be like upset if I don't have the reaction she's looking for. Well I told you, you didn't say, I mean.

Let me intake the information before I give a reaction first. And then when I see it, then I might be like, oh snap. But my natural. It's different though, right? Yeah. It's like the other day when I was texting y'all, I'm like, man, this John 17 hits different. Yeah. And it was just, I don't know, for the moment, I'm reading through John 17 and the prayer that Jesus says for himself, for the disciples, and for the future church. it's just like.

Wow, this is powerful. is everything. This is the Savior praying for us. Yeah, that's probably one of the... We always talk about the Lord's Prayer from Matthew 5 and 6, and when he talks about our Father with art in heaven, the whole Lord's Prayer. But...

But when you actually hear him praying in John 17, it gives you a level of love and to see how much he loves us. For him to say, Father, show them that you love them as much as you love me. And we don't realize that and we don't teach that we are as loved as Jesus. And in the context of he's about to go get crucified in just a matter of hours.

he's he's worried about us. Yeah. Yeah. And that man, listen, that that that stuff excites me because when you realize and I think growing up in a traditional organization and traditional church, ⁓ you know,

I don't think we were as, we came in I guess on the tail end of the legalism to that extent where you couldn't wear red and you couldn't go skating, you couldn't do these things. We came on the very tail end of that ⁓ and I appreciate that to an extent but. ⁓

We haven't really taught the love of God, I think, like we should. ⁓ yeah. You know, we say we know that God loves us, but do you really understand what he is saying in John 17 when he's saying, Father, I want them to know that you love them just as much as you love me. know, and then, but we hear it as, we almost like, we think.

that might be blasphemy, you know, to realize that I'm as loved as Jesus, I'm as righteous as Jesus. And when you hear that message being, you know, being taught about, you know, ⁓ in a different way.

It's like I go back to when Jesus says, I didn't count it robbery to be equal with the Father. Yeah, that's what night. And when we, that's the same way we have to take it as, I didn't count it robbery because he said it. Right. Right. You know, he said, have the same, I'm of the same essence as the Father, as the righteousness that Jesus had. You know, just how we look at, ⁓ you know,

what Paul writes in Romans and he said, what is it that Abraham discovered? What is it that Abraham found? And he said it was because of his faith, it counted onto him as righteousness. when you really, you alluded to talking about grace with Pastor Mike, but when you think about that grace message and then you pair that with what he's saying in John 17 when he's getting ready to go off, it makes you realize like, whoa, like he really does

love me like, you know, and how the scripture tells us that it's not because, you know, I loved him, but because he first loved me. Like, and so that is that is, think, man, is that gets me excited and gets me fired up to to understand, like, he really does love me. there, you know, and that grace is there not to allow me to do whatever I want, but that grace is there that he understands I'm

I'm human. Hebrew tells us in Hebrew, I think it's four, says that we have this high priest that is able to sympathize with our weaknesses. He understands our- Our priest we can't be reached with the Philanthrope. Exactly. so that is powerful. John 17 is one of my favorite. And just thinking about that is like that prayer.

was literally his last prayer before he, you know, entered the cross. And so it brings a different light to Hebrews 12. When it says, looking up to him, the author and the finish of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him. You understand it was joyful because of what he says in John 17. And so he was happy to go because he loved us. And because he loved us, he said, it's joyful for me to go and do this for you.

So yeah, every time we get to talk about who would want to serve a God like this? Yeah, I don't get how you would not want to know someone who knew who you would be. He would know your shortcomings would know your mistakes would know every time you would ⁓ lie and go back and waver between two opinions and have a double mind and still love you enough to have you in mind to die for.

A cause that you did to take your punishment who would not want to love someone like that. I You just you talked about the saying and it's on the song Oh how I love Jesus because he first loved me. I'm

I don't get how people have to be talked into. And maybe they just don't know ⁓ the love of God. obviously some folks who ⁓ have not been, who are not churched, have not been ⁓ in the church house and may not have read a Bible, ⁓ they're not aware of the gift of grace, not aware of the gift of redemption. ⁓ But once you do find out about it,

How can you turn away from it? How can you say that you had it better on the other side than you here? Just because you profess Christ, yeah, it's not gonna be all flowery beds of ease and, I've received Christ and I ain't gonna have no more problems. No, probably quite to the opposite. ⁓ But still to know that he loves you enough to carry you through everything that you go through. And the scripture you're talking about, yeah, he knows.

our hangups, he knows our shortcomings, he understands us, he's in touch with the feeling of our family, he knows what we go through and that's why I love that he came down to Flesh so much, he went out, he stepped out of glory, off his place with the Father and was willing to know man and to know our failings, to know

how we are in our flesh. He loved us that much to where he's like, I will volunteer myself to feel what they feel. To be sin, to be the curse. He jumped in to feel that, to feel that for us. I'm like, you don't have to do none of that for us. It's as amazing as me. I'm amazed that he would even want to and that his love would cause him to do that. Not that he had to, but because he loved us enough that that's where his

Love led to doing that for us. Right. the word is amazing. Yeah. It is absolutely. I mean, we talk about this a little bit in every episode so far, but it's just like. It's it's this right here is just full of treasure, man. This is gold binding is it makes sense because it's man, it don't get no more valuable than. Right right there.

Now, how many people have access and don't even crack it? It's like, man, that's that's what we want to encourage people to do is dive in, like explore for yourself, because my goodness, it is it's a treasure. Yeah, it's a treasure. I spoke with ⁓ one coworker and ⁓ he's not a believer in the one conversation I had with him. Why he's not. And he was telling me that ⁓

that somebody actually somebody kind of turned him away. Now I'm not sure if he was a believer. Excuse me. If he was a believer before this situation or not. But somebody told him,

a father, aren't you? He's like, yeah. He's like, you wouldn't punish your children and you wouldn't send your children to hell if you're a loving father, right? He's like, So God, so why what kind of God would do that to us?

And so that kind of twisted his head up to where like, yeah, what kind of loving God would do that? And I'm yet to have an in-depth conversation with this person yet. He told me about this, but ⁓ someday we're gonna go back and try to untangle some of those crazy notions that was thrown into his head. But really, loving God, a God who loves us so much and wants us to...

be reconciled to him, he doesn't force us to have relationship with him. I was only able to speak with him briefly, like, man, God doesn't force us or throw us into hell. It wasn't even created for us. ⁓ I wasn't able to expound much more than that, but I'm like, it was not made for us. And it does not bring him pleasure. The Bible says is,

And it says, that no man should perish, but all should come to repentance. it's not like he shuns us and wants us to go away, or it's not like Islam or Allah creates folks specifically for hell. Who was it? It was the, I think it was C.S. Lewis that said that hell's locked from the inside. got to, in order for someone to go to hell, you've got to reject Christ's love. You got to reject it.

It's not a foregone conclusion that someone needs to be separated eternally from God. And he just loves us enough to give us opportunity after opportunity after opportunity, mess up after mess up, even when we said, no, this is it. This is last time I did that. I said, I don't know how more times, have I had a dime for every time I've said that, man. I'd be a very rich man, but he loves us enough to be like,

Yeah, okay, this isn't your last time. Go ahead and repent and we'll try this again tomorrow and do better the next day. But a loving father like he is just does not want us to be separated from him. ⁓ we, on our finite thinking, can't really fully encapsulate that in our little minds. We can't ever think why God would.

love us the way that we are and after the things that we do to each other and you how we are hateful and all these other things that humans are he still loves us right man god is love yeah it's a nature let's ⁓ let's let's try to of course correct back to to fred's testimony here because i know you got you got all kinds of good stuff for us i'm sure

Tell us, tell the viewers just some rich testimony. Because I know in your 41 years, you've been through some things. And Lord has definitely delivered you from some things that couldn't been nothing by him. Yeah, for sure. ⁓ I guess I'll go with ⁓ this personal testimony of how he got healed. My body is that.

⁓ When I was 29, I think it was, ⁓ I ⁓ was at work. ⁓ Work was kind of stressful, but ⁓ I don't know what it was. I was feeling weird that morning. I got up and went to work and was feeling really bad in my body, ⁓ not really sure what was going on. And so I...

told the guy that my manager that needed, you know, he's going to bathroom ever. So I got up and went to the bathroom and I would say from from the bathroom to my desk was maybe 100 yards. If that, you know, and by the time I left the bathroom and get back to my desk, ⁓ I mean, completely out of breath, sweating, not knowing what's going on. I'm like,

told my man, like, hey, something's not right. I need to go home. And if you know me, I do not like going to doctors. I like going to the hospitals. ⁓ It's just, it's not a fear thing from dealing with that, because I'm a firm believer in God's healing. ⁓ It's a, I don't want to have to worry about that. And I don't want nobody else worrying about me in that aspect. So. ⁓

Me and Rameesha, had just my wife of 12 years now. We just got engaged, which was an answered prayer for me, because I told God that I wanted to be married before I was 30. And literally, I got married when I was 29. Wow. So I left out the job, and I was on the phone with mom. like, man, I'm just not feeling right, whatever.

something, you know, I'm like, I'm out of breath, whatever, not knowing. And so she was like, well, maybe she go to the doctor. Normally I would at the hospital, whatever, emergency room. Normally I'm like, nah, I'm good. I'm going home. today, that time I knew this is different. I'm not used to feeling this way. And so I get into the emergency room and my heart rate was, I mean, I'm sitting in chair. My heart rate was like at 130, 140. So they immediately took me back, EKG and all that.

for whatever reason, my heart went into AFib and didn't, never experienced that before in my life. And I mean, I'm laying in the hospital bed and it's going between, it'll go up to like 150 and drop all the way down to like 60. And it was just back and forth. And so I think that I up standing in the hospital for a few days and, you know, and God delivered me from that.

healed me from that, you know, prayers of the righteous and all of that. And and so I'm saying this testimony because God had has allowed me to operate in the gift of ⁓ and through ministry ⁓ and preaching. I've seen, you know, ⁓ a lot of miracles that happen. And so ⁓ I get out of the hospital. ⁓ The exact we got married the next year.

the exact time the next year was in June when it happened. was the first time was right after my birthday. I think it was right around that time. Exact same time next year ⁓ dealing with the same thing. had it was like June 2nd or 3rd ish and it was it was a Sunday went to church.

Um, dad had to preach at, um, New Jack, um, and, um, dad had me sing. And so I was already feeling weird. Um, um, and so I was like, I don't know, whatever I said, my wife was like, you need to go to the, you know, you want to go to the, uh, urgent care. And I'm like, no, because if I go to urgent care, I know they're going to send me like my mind. I knew for a fact, I need to go back to the hospital, went to church anyway. I'm like, well,

wait, we'll see, went to church anyway. ⁓ So for my dad, I mean, exhausted, like, sweating, tired. I mean, I'm like, you would thought that I just got through running two, three miles. I'm, you know, exhausted. And so we go into the hospital. ⁓ And sure enough, they kept me. And I said, God, I don't want to be in this ⁓ hospital when I, you know, from on my birthday.

So ⁓ first stint was like, I stayed there for like three days. This time around, they gave me some medicine, whatever, and I was out the next day. So it wasn't even a day and a half, I think it was. And they wanted to put me on blood pressure medicine. And I'm like, I'm not. I'm one, I'm too young. I'm not doing blood pressure medicine. None of that, ⁓ because of the grace of God, to this day,

Haven't had to take any blood pressure medicine. Haven't had any scares with anything concerning my, well, anything concerning my heart. And so everything was fine. And then another testimony from, was it last year? think it was, no, earlier this year, excuse me. I went into the hospital. I had just got through lifting weights with a couple of buddies of mine. And,

things was going well, I went to the dentist and my blood pressure was 170 over like 100. What? And I'm doctor, I mean the dentist at all places took my blood pressure. So I'm like, well, that's odd. Like I don't feel weird. I don't feel that nothing's wrong with me, And again, I'm saying this is because.

Majority of the time, a lot of times when God has allowed you to operate in the gift of healing, the enemy will fight you in that very same area. And so ⁓ so I've had little scares like this, this one was a little bit different. get into the ⁓ I get to my mother in law's house because I knew she had a blood pressure cuff, whatever. And so I'm like, I'm just going to try it again when I get, you know, once we get picked up, Misha went to her house.

did my blood pressure again, was like 172 over like 130 or something like that, it extremely high. So my mom was like, called my mom, like, hey, mom and dad, I'm like probably gonna go to the emergency room, this is what's going on with my blood pressure. So the whole time we drive, and this is in like January, February of this year, so you know, we had a really bad winter this year. Going to the, driving to the hospital,

ice, everything was really bad. get there not prepared, no phone chargers, nothing. And so we in the hospital and the whole time we're driving there and I'm thinking, because for me is, I've always said like, if one of us is worried, we both can't be worried. Like if you're worried about something or you're at this level, there's no way we are gonna be able to function with me being there with you too.

I'm always, you know, I'm not gonna think about it, I'm not gonna worry about it, I'm trust God, I'm gonna let her have the worry. And so, but this time, I'm probably just as worried as her because I'm like, this is weird. You know, this is odd and I'm like, so I'm scared and I'm always in my mind thinking like, God, am I getting ready to have a stroke? now, like not this. Don't let this be what takes me out. And so, as I'm sitting there driving to the hospital,

I'm thinking, God, why me? Why now? Literally, vibratum in my mind is the question I ask. So we get in the hospital, they check my blood pressure, it was high, they admitted me. sitting in the, before they put me in the room, thinking just, know, how they probably just gonna figure out how to get me back down and we'll be fine. So they run tests, they come back, and it was like,

Sir, your kidneys are functioning at 58%. Wow. Excuse me? It can't be. And they started asking if I'm having all these symptoms. I'm like, no. They was like, is your urine? I'm like, no. drinking. At that point, I'm drinking over a gallon of water a day, like gallon and a half. That's what I was doing. And I just worked out. So I'm not understanding what you're saying. was like, have you been having muscle spasms or anything? I'm like, nope.

feel perfectly fine. So in my mind, I'm like, this is the enemy. know what it is. they, ⁓ and what was crazy is I just had a physical like a month before and all of my numbers were perfect. it was, blood pressure was low. ⁓ know, all of the numbers, everything that they just ran, they had it ran a month before and everything's fine. was like, yeah, no.

I was like, so it was like, yeah, so you're not going home. I'm like, you've got to kidding me. So we get in the room. And so I'm like, OK, God, what's going on? So I sent a few text messages out to some people to pray. And my wife didn't want to leave, but I'm like, you need to go home. have any charges or whatever. And the weather's bad. And then so she got home. She called me. And so I was like, just stay home. I'll be fine. Just come back in the morning.

And I turn on the TV and TV is old TV. And it was on it. It was on immediately. It was on TV and Bishop Herman Murray was preaching. One of my favorite preachers. I used to listen to a lot in the back in the day. He was on he was on TV and his title of his message was why me why now? Really? Literally. And I'm like, OK. And so soon as I saw that, I said, OK, God, I'm good.

Like I said, so I listened to the message a little bit and then I went to sleep and I'm like, okay, because I'm like, this is the enemy. I know what it is. We good now. Like we gonna go ahead and fight this battle of faith and we gonna be fine. And the doctor came in in the middle of the night and he was trying to tell me he was like, you're gonna be on, we're gonna put you on this blood pressure medicine. And I was like, so for how long? Right. And so he was like,

for the rest of my, for rest of your life, I'm like, well, no. And he said, he was like, well, he was like, that's okay. He was like, I'm on blood pressure medicine and I've been having to be on it for the rest of my life. And so, and what, but so what was crazy is his title, his badge didn't say his name, it just said physician. And so soon as he said that, I said, well, I know another physician. And so they prescribed me this blood pressure medicine and

⁓ They everything after they he came in he said all that the nurse came in ⁓ later on that day ⁓ still morning time came in and ⁓ Said came back and said well all of your tests are normal like there's nothing there I was like so what happened what happened between the the the er and now and they had no explanation like and this is why it was so odd is because

They were literally, when I was in the ER, they were literally on the computer Googling, trying to figure out what was going on. They using Google like we use Google. They try in the hospital, like what's going on there? were literally trying to figure out. On WebMD or something. Exactly. Like at least pull up Chad GPT. Exactly. Somebody tell me something. mean, to this day, I have no, I mean, I know it was the enemy, but I have no idea what actually happened to me.

And so I literally have the blood pressure medicine because I went to the doc. I went and got it just so that can have it as a testimony and is in my I keep it in my bathroom to remind me of what God has done for me. ⁓ So that is personal testimonies of God healing. ⁓ I remember preaching at Bishop Donaldson Church. He did a street revival under the tent revival. And I remember preaching there and.

and God, through the power of the word, didn't have to lay my hands or anything. It was a guy in the back that had been ⁓ in a bad car accident and he was crippled and had to use a walker. I had to use a walker ⁓ and he couldn't walk without it. ⁓ He, ⁓ right before altar call, he walks up to the front without his walker. And to this day,

He I run into him every once in a while to this day. He's not having he's not been over. Doesn't have to use a walker. There was a lady at Pastor Miller's church that came to the service in a wheelchair. And ⁓ and we prayed for her and she left the wheelchair at the church and went home. And so we seen ⁓ God heal in that manner. I have a friend.

His father has passed away now, but had a friend that, father was in a hospital and, ⁓ he could not, ⁓ they found a mass and they needed to do a surgery and they sat and went in and they found a mass and they couldn't get past the mass. ⁓ and he called me and, we went up there and I went up there and I prayed with him in the hospital. ⁓ the next day they couldn't find what was blocking the surgery anymore. ⁓

His father eventually passed away, ⁓ but it's still the testimony that he didn't leave here with what he had. ⁓ so I'm a firm believer that through the years we've seen God do great things, ⁓ heal, deliver people getting saved and all of that. ⁓ But ⁓ God still works miracles. Absolutely. If we're willing to have faith and willing to believe.

And again, our faith doesn't move God ⁓ from a genie aspect. Like, know, I'm gonna release my faith and then God's gonna do this for me. No, it's literally a lifestyle of faith and believing God and trusting God at his word that if he says I'm the God that's gonna heal, then we gotta believe that he's a God that's gonna heal. ⁓ You know, there's been times when I've prayed and nothing happened. ⁓

think what really started it for me ⁓ is I was ⁓ living with my great grandmother and my grandmother. ⁓ My uncle had passed away and my great grandmother stayed at his house so that everybody could come to his house. And so they didn't want to go home. She didn't want to go home because she wasn't really ready to let go.

So she asked me to stay there with them. so I stayed there with them. And then it was one morning, ⁓ I hear my great grandmother calling my name, get up, call your mom. Something's going on with Betty, which was my grandmother. ⁓ she was just sitting there. And you can see literally the life leaving her eyes. And so I'm sitting there holding my grandmother.

in my arms because she ended up having, it was a blood clot that she was dealing with. And I'm sitting there and I'm just like deadly afraid. Like I don't know what to do. Like, and luckily one of our cousins, sister, came over, you know, I called 911, you know, and so my sister came over and she went to.

town just praying. Old mother like I mean this you know the speaking in tongues praying up and down her body and you know and my grandmother made it through that. She's she's gone now. This is many many years later but I remember in that moment I said I don't ever want to be in a position again where I'm afraid and not know what to do. I mean so so afraid to pray and I'm like my grandmother if y'all know mother black she was a praying praying woman. Yes sir.

And I'm sitting there I like, I don't even know. I couldn't get her delivered or anything. I couldn't pray her out of a wet paper bag right then because I was so afraid. And I've always made up my mind, I'm like, I'm never going to be in that position again where I allow fear to grip me so that I can't trust God when we need it the most. So those are some of the testimonies that.

that I've seen through the years in ministry. And I'm just, I'm curious. So to kind of rewind a little bit when you were, when you were in the hospital and that message came up, did you, did you watch that message through and get a word from it? Or you just, all you needed was a title. That title told me all I needed to know. Gotcha. I listened for a while and then I got some rest. But that title is all I needed to know. Because

It was God telling me, I hear you. Yeah. And I think that is the most comforting thing that we can have as believers to know that God hears our prayers. ⁓ And a lot of times, because of circumstances in life, it will cause you to sometimes forget that. And I wouldn't even say forget. Forget probably is maybe the wrong word, but it would allow you to not remember in that moment because you have so many things coming at you. ⁓

But it was just a reminder that this, you know what this is. you know, so go ahead and believe and you're good, you know, because I was literally like, cause the first time I went to the hospital, you know, back when I was like, sitting in my thirties, I was like, you know, on fire. was like, you know, God, I don't want this, but I was, I, you know, I was good. I was able to trust him, but this time something was, I was afraid because I saw the numbers myself.

And I saw that my blood pressure kept going up. When I tested again, it didn't go back down. I tried to calm myself down. Maybe I'm excited. And it was going. I'm like, OK, God. And so driving, I was nervous. I was in a position. was like, God, what's going to happen with my wife? And what are we going to do now? And he just let me know.

I mean verbatim I said why me why now in my head and then to turn that on and he's preaching why me why now. ⁓ It's definitely something to ⁓ experience a supernatural healing not just just spectate and see someone heal but to have your own personal experience because I can remember I mean for years you know district gutter

Clarence Johnson would, it seemed like for whatever reason, we had like a magnet draw to people coming into church that one leg was shorter than the other. Yeah. I know there was a whole short leg community. Yeah. They all seem to... They must've heard about life there after away a while into where we were. Everyone... Yeah. So you already knew like, okay, there's another short leg person. Elder Jay's gonna pray for him. The legs are gonna be even. We've seen this enough times.

But then it was for me, it was one day I was I was actually at the gym with your brother and we were doing leg press on the, you know, you lay on it and you're pressing your legs up on the sled or whatever. one leg was locking out and the other one wasn't. I'm like, what is going on? And so I told Vince, said, come here, look at this. And so was like, this leg lockout, this one still has some push on it. So I got off the sled and I sat down in a chair and

Vincent's there at the time and I put my feet out and one of them is out here and one of them's right here. And you never noticed this before? No, it wasn't. I'm certain it wasn't like this before. And so I so I sit down like I messed myself up. How did I get like this? And so, of course, Vincent, now we've we've seen this a hundred times. We're like, I just I'm going to elder Jay on Sunday. Yeah. And so sure enough, ⁓ after.

after service was over and he's praying for people or on the tail end of service he's praying for people. I sit down just like everybody, we've seen everybody do it before. And man, didn't even get hands on my leg. just is the weirdest feeling ever, but it was just like, boom, and it was even. It's been even to this day, but seeing all those people do it, or seeing all those people healed, was one thing.

But then experiencing it was, man, it was a whole nother deal. it's, ⁓ it's those personal experiences that then nobody can tell you nothing. Like you can't, you can't tell me that guy's not a healer because I've, personally experienced it. So maybe you haven't had that experience yet, but, I'm a believer. It's a matter of time that if you do believe he's there to do it. Yeah.

I tell you that the one of the first times I saw that happen, like, know, whatever I was doing, everyone was always crowd around. There's a whole big crowd of folks standing around, whether it be in ministers or whomever. And Johnson tell you, come on up here because he had no doubt that God was going to do it. I remember the first time I got up there and was able to see the sea. And I told you before, I saw it and I about puked. Wow. I saw a leg going out. Oh, my gosh. This is amazing and gross at the same time. Yeah.

But I was just in awe to watch that and know that they're not adjusting their hips to make it look like it. No, this thing was grown. You could see it catching up to the other leg. And I wanted to praise, and at the same time, I had to hold myself together. Oh, this is gross. But it's amazing to me, and we've talked about this before with a friend of ours, how some churches will not experience gifts of the spirit like that.

They'll come in and worship and fellowship and, ⁓ you know, stuff like healing or prophecy or tongues. It won't be there. And not saying that they're doing something wrong, but it's just, I don't know. It is not prevalent in those. It's almost like they're just not open to it. It's not going to force it. They think that that's for the old days. God don't do that no more.

Bible says, Christ is the same yesterday, today, forever. Whatever he did back then, he do the same thing now. And I just never could get how anybody could go through service and not ⁓ at least expect an impartation of the Spirit. Now, every Sunday is not a Nasusah Street and everyone's falling out and getting healed. It's not like that. But if you don't see ⁓ something.

Yeah, some kind of ⁓ working on the spirit. What are you doing? mean, right. You could watch church at home if you aren't going to experience. I just don't get how anyone can grow to know God. And the beauty of holiness for who he is, according to the word, if there is no. Spirit. ⁓ Ex no no working to the spirit, whether it be.

be like that and then look at you crazy whenever. ⁓ Now we've been some been invited to some churches like don't be speaking in tongues don't be doing that and the other to where you know you got to put your light under a bushel because they're not used to it right I'm like what are we doing here. Somebody help me I don't know what what what what are we doing whenever you've got to. ⁓ Keep any kind of show of the Holy Spirit. Keeping under wraps.

Right. Yeah, I think Life Tabernacle was one of the really very few that you would see the gift of the Spirit in operation. I remember I would leave as soon as we would get out of service. You know, my father's a pastor and so as soon as we get out of service, you know, I'm rushing down the highway trying to get to Life Tabernacle, you know, that now. And again, it wasn't that

I wasn't chasing after, but ⁓ that was family too. was that church. ⁓ Elder J was my uncle. Literally family. Literally family. so, but I was rushing to get there ⁓ to hear, you know, the tail end of Elder J preaching or the tail end of, you know, Pastor Clarence preach, the third preaching and to see, you know, the gifts, you know, and operations. remember when Elder J was, ⁓

on the way, know, transitioning. I remember sitting in the hospital with him and he was very passionate about, you know, God and the gifts. And he was, you know, telling me it was like, you know, that how he had the ability to be able to see into people, to know what was wrong and then, and knowing how to pray and, you know, his testimony of, you know, what he, what he.

when he was newly saved, know, just getting saved and how he saw the angel standing on the street corner. ⁓ You know, to hear that testimony, but you don't really hear people talk about that nowadays. We have gotten so educated and knowledgeable on book chapter and verse that we rarely allow the Holy Spirit to...

to operate like he does, like he wants to. ⁓ And we don't have enough faith. We have faith in our knowledge ⁓ of the word. And we don't actually have, know, and it may sound weird to say it like that, but we have faith in the knowledge of the word, but we don't really know the word. You know, ⁓ we can tell you where you can find this scripture and quote the scriptures and all of that, but has it really...

you know, gotten into your heart where you are believing God that he's still, you know, God that does greater works. He said greater works will show you do it, not in, you know, in quality, but in quantity. know, I think I remember when I was in Raymond, my roommate, shout out to Matt McCarthy out in Kalamazoo, Michigan. He's, one of the things he said is that when the enemy, he say he was like a light bulb. He said when the enemy,

when Christ died on the cross, he said, and rose again, he said it was like a lot of light bulbs, light bulbs ⁓ lighting up around the world, you know, because now the Holy Spirit, where the enemy only had to deal with Jesus in that one city, you know, now he's having to deal with the, of the spirit of God on the inside of us, all around the world, you know, is an outpouring everywhere. And so you get all these light bulbs now lighting up.

And if we can just be, get back to where we are really trusting God, ⁓ we can really see a change in our societies. we know the Bible tells us that the love of many will wax cold and things are gonna get worse in end times that we're living in. ⁓ But that doesn't mean that we stop preaching because we know things are gonna get worse. You don't know who you're gonna come in contact with.

⁓ that your light that God's placed on the inside of you is gonna change them. So yeah. I know we're kind of running, I don't know where the time went. We were running shorter on time than I had thought. ⁓ One thing I wanted to discuss with you on here, because like you said off camera, one of the few people that I've known that's been into apologetics with myself is you.

And I know we shared that movie back and forth. What was it? ⁓ now I forget the name. Something with numbers, wasn't it? Now I got to let me pull it up because. ⁓

But we were looking at, we had an

in, and I don't even know how, what it was in our conversation that even. I think I saw a post of yours talking about it and that's what made me send it to you.

Whatever it was, we got on the same... ⁓

kind of a wavelength talking about apologetics and it's something that you know for the past like year and a half has interested me. ⁓ I just came across ⁓ Preston Perry ⁓ talking to ⁓ Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons. It's kind of like his that's kind of his wheelhouse. I was talking to them and then

You know, when you look at one video, then it goes into another on your timeline. And then you're in the algorithm of YouTube. And then I started getting God Logic on there, and Sam Shamone, and David Wood, and all these other apologetics. And now recently here in the last year, Wesley Huff. All of whom, Lord willing, whenever we get big, we'll send them an invite to.

come on down here in the basement and chop it up with this. Yeah. Every Austin. Now listen to you on the way one way. Listen to you on the way in here. Wes Huff, Christian Prince, logic this morning. All of y'all know, come on into line of Judah. Yeah. Come on in, then folks. but yeah, we were, uh, you know, we come to find out that you and I both had an interest in.

and apologetics, what kind of got, who kind of got your attention into that and interest into that field of ministry? Yeah, I found a movie by the way, it's Unspoken. Unspoken, that's what was. and so, it was the Christian answer to another series that, and I can't think of that name of that series now myself, but what got me into

really apologetic. First, let's talk about what, not to cut you off, explain what apologetics is. In the simplest form, it's defending the faith. It's being ready to give an answer to why you believe. ⁓ And so when people hear apologetics, they think, what are you apologizing for? I used to make the same thing. But no, it's ready to defend and to contend. ⁓

comes from Jude chapter three. what's I remember preaching a message out of Jude ⁓ and ⁓ I think I think I titled emergency broadcast. And because if you read you it start off and said I wanted I started to write to you about one thing but I needed to write to you concerning ⁓ concerning contending to earnestly contend for the faith. And that's what you get the ⁓

apologetics from is contending ⁓ and really fighting for the faith as you keep reading in Jude three and I mean verse four and five it goes on and talks about the why he's wanting them to

because they were people that crept in unaware ⁓ that were ⁓ not coming from the outside but that were already in and they was taking the grace of God

to live a ⁓ morally, ⁓ immoral lifestyle and to, and they were denying the authority of Christ. Taking advantage of the Taking advantage of the grace, right. And so that's where really apologetics comes from. But what got me into apologetics is, and I wouldn't necessarily say just apologetics, but just wanting to know the word. ⁓ Yeah. Because. ⁓

I think that we ⁓ can become very arrogant when it comes to being an apologist and being into apologetics. I think we can get very arrogant with that and not remain humble and we use it to go and win an argument. ⁓ And so for me, ⁓ that was always a frustrating aspect of apologetics to me because it looks like people are just going out to find a battle.

And to say you win. know exactly ⁓ though it's good information and though they may have cooked the Hebrew Israelites or the Muslims or whatever ⁓ you know did didn't actually win anybody right to Christ is my thing. And so the late Bishop Roman Johnson had called him ⁓ because I was studying on Calvinism and and

You know, if you know Calvin is, you know, the five points of a Calvinist and, um, and I was looking through that and I'm like, okay, I agree with this. agree with this. But then it got to the point of predestination and I, and it kind of stopped me. And so I was a little confused on, you know, um, predestination and whether or not I'm like, cause as I was reading predestination and I'm like, I began to have questions about, well, if everything was predestined, what's the point of us preaching? Right.

You know, and so I call Bishop Ruben Johnson. And if you know him, he is he was a student of the word of God. He was one that his father, who's also gone, a one bishop, a one Johnson out of St. Louis, some of the best biblical teachers that that are known within the P.A.W. and outside to an extent, but not necessarily.

you know, nationwide where their name is in everybody's mouth, you know, things like that. But they were amazing teachers. And I remember calling him and ⁓ and I asked him about pre-destination. He said, OK, you got your Bible with you again on a phone call. And I was like, yeah, he's like, all right. Never did wasn't prepared for my question. You know, wasn't I didn't send it in advance. I just called him like, hey, you had a second. I got a question.

and he was ready and he said, okay, you got your Bible on Leah? He's like, okay, it's turning this scripture. I said, okay, he said, now turn to this scripture. And he probably for about 30 to 45 minutes went through a whole Bible study on predestination. At the drop of a hat. At the drop of a hat, unprompted. Wow. And so because of that, I've always said, I wanna be able to be that for somebody else. And so that's why apologetics has caused me to, know, it brought my attention and my interest because...

⁓ I think it's something that we all need to be able to defend the faith and be able to give an answer. You know, so if a young man goes to school and he's hit with one of these ideology doctrines from someone, you know, someone in his school, they will be able to come to me and say, hey, someone told me this. Now, what does this mean? And I can be able to open the word of God and say that I don't want to do apologetics to be able to, you know, grow a YouTube page. Right.

and go and challenge every Pan-African, every, you know, Black Hebrew Israelite, you know, every Muslim, you know, every atheist I can go and find. let me find that, you know, this atheist and get them told and say, you're wrong, you know. No, because I think it's a level of love. And I don't like the debate aspect of apologetics, but I like, you know, if you want to defend the faith, defend the faith and do it from a place of love. that's that's where it got me started. So.

You're absolutely right on the, I have to, I ingest a steady diet of these videos, but not for the debate aspect. That really is kind of grating on me, especially when they're all talking all together, all at once. you can't understand anything anyway, whether you're on the Christian side or the Muslim side or whatever, you can't understand what's going on. it's, nowadays it seems like it's a lot of these younger guys, at least guys that are younger than 40.

And so their kind of disposition in these 20 year olds is kind of a little different than what an elder statesman, a millennial would find palatable. However, the information is what drew me. ⁓ The passing on information of who Christ is in the word, how he revealed himself even in the Old Testament, how prophecy,

pointed to Christ, how he was fulfilling prophecy from the Old Testament, all that stuff. I was like, I've been in church my whole life, I know none of this. And that's what reeled me in. And not so much the, know, yeah, I cooked them. That, I'm like, man, I'm a grown man. Talk to me, don't be talking to me, know, cooking nothing. So, but you're absolutely right. It is the information that really reeled me in and wanted me to know more. And I've seen...

some videos where they have had no decent back and forth to where ⁓ the adversary presents something why they believe what they believe. And the Christian side would go according to the Bible why that is incorrect or why we don't believe that. And some of those adverse sides would be like, well, you know, we're just continuing on with the Bible or we're just confirming what the Bible says.

And then whenever you put that against what the word of God says, you see that it couldn't be more contrary one to the other. so ⁓ I do think absolutely it's good to know what the other side believes so you know how to defend the faith against it and how to explain why that is not something that a notion that we hold to. And I'd say this.

Like it was maybe a year or something ago, ⁓ we had Jehovah's Witness or somebody knocking on our door on Saturday. I missed it. Like I knew they'd come in to the door because you see the doorbell camera, but I was never home. And I was finally home. I think it was, ⁓ I in a year ago. This was like Easter or something. past Easter. ⁓ They came and. ⁓

I wish I could get a hold of him so I could say something. So I was coming in the wrong spirit. I know, absolutely. This was, matter of fact, hit the trombone sign. This was on me. Yeah, this was on me. I was like, let me catch this, let me catch this to hold witness when they come to the door. And it was to win an argument, not to win a show. And ⁓ this young lady, it was like two of them.

And they couldn't have been nicer. They weren't trying to be, you know, combative or argumentative, nothing. And I came in, what I thought coming guns blazing. Yeah. Like, let me tell you why you believe, don't believe Jesus is God and all this stuff. And ⁓ she's like, can I leave you some literature? Like I very nice, very sweet. Gave me this little track. And I was like, well, you give me that.

and I'm giving you some Bible verses. And even when I talk about it now, I'm making myself sick. Just recant what happened. I'm like, dude, what are you doing? And then she's like, OK. She even agreed to it. And in that moment, God's like, all right, I'm going to show you up. I just went blank. Yeah. Like I fell flat on my face and couldn't remember nothing. I even had the Bible with me. I was like, I don't even know nothing. I got to the front page of the index to show you where the Bible verse.

books were. Yeah, that's about as far as I got. And I was like, all right, have a nice day. Took her little track and went on. And so that just goes to show whenever you go into that with the wrong spirit, whenever you're trying to win an argument and show that you're, you know, ⁓ you're whatever and not coming in with the purpose of, you know, presenting Christ to somebody and winning them over. Yeah, man, got to shut you down. So all this debate and you and cooking you and asked men.

get right, try, make the main thing the main thing and get all this, you know, try to be viral. I'm glad they didn't have no camera because I would have went viral. They would have like Christian fails, whatever. And I'd have looked right in the camera and they had a freeze frame and show me looking stupid in it.

And it'd be rightly deserved. I couldn't even say nothing against it. That's hilarious. Now you kind of just know over the past year, you've been telling me about some of the apologetics channels that you watch. And so I've started watching some of them and some of them are they're just they're just out to win. Yeah. Yeah. Not even about helping somebody. But I truly enjoy God logic. He's he's one. And I feel like he's

He keeps it pretty cool. He's always just trying to help people understand. It's like, nah, that's not right. Most of the they don't want to hear it. he's not, it's not in a way that's like, I'm cooking you. That attitude. Even though most of the time he is cooking people. He does it in a loving way. And there have been some people I've seen.

that have converted ⁓ because of that. And it's something to me, I can always commend those people who come from another ⁓ faith into Christianity, especially if someone coming from Islam to where, you know, wherever you become an apostate, that's punishable by death. Right. You you lose your family, you lose your life, you lose everything. And, you know, us...

as current so-called Christians, we'll get upset and leave churches because somebody didn't talk to you. Meanwhile, these people are leaving the only faith they've known, and they're like, you know what? I'm stepping off. Jesus, you real. I'm coming for you. And they'll go straight to Christ. And we get in our feelings for whatever reason. And so anyone who's come from Islam, come from Jehovah's Witness, come from Mormonism, whatever, and to the knowledge of Christ, who he is, and know him as God.

Man, I feel like those are the folks that you, that are the strongest, the dude, Nabil, we was talking about him before, the guy passed away, he used to be Muslim, then ⁓ David Wood had helped lead him to Christ. He was a ⁓ strong soldier until he passed away of cancer, ⁓ but folks like him who've come from other ⁓ belief sets into Christ, man, those are the ones, give me.

Give me an ex-Muslim any day over somebody that's been in the faith for 40, 50 years. Give me someone who's hungry and has come to know Christ from something completely different, completely off to know Christ. Now, I take them any day. Now, the Bill's testimony is amazing, just powerful. And the dream that he had on the, you probably heard his own testimony, the dream he had was just.

from the Lord, you know, it was like, wow, it's pretty amazing. But I got his book. haven't read it, but definitely watched some of his some of his YouTube stuff. Who was that? Nabil, he's got a book searching. Was it searching for finding Jesus? OK, yeah, yeah, yeah. OK, I have I have that book. I have not read it yet, but I have. Yeah. And you got a lot of books. You used to I'm used to get like random.

Messages from you whatever like what are you reading? I gotta be reading some more time work. I got time to be reading that now I got so many doggone books that I haven't cracked open yet But not you know, plan on reading it. I got like a stack like this Yeah, I just haven't had time to really get into but man I've As much as weird as sound sometimes just not enough time hours in the day. Yeah, I need to be on like a

Castaway Island with just me and all my books and just now I have no excuse to sit there and read every one of them. Yeah, I've learned that I did, you know, so I think you all heard of 75 hard. Yeah. And so the process of saving for you, you know, you have 75 days and you have X amount of things you got to do, you know, two workouts a day inside outside. And so that's the first part. Then you go into phase one, which is 30 days.

And in phase one, have, I mean, well, let me go back in 75 hard. One of the things you got to do is you got to read 10 pages of a book a day. So then you after that, you get through 74, you go to phase one, which is 30 days, and then you have to add to the list of stuff that 75 hard things you did. You got to add to that. ⁓ And so because of that, it allowed me to be able to read so many more books when I've

⁓ instead of thinking about, let me pick up the book and reading for 30 minutes, hour, taking one book and reading 10 pages a day. ⁓ I've, I got through in that 75 days, I think I got through like maybe, maybe three, four books in that 75 days, just because you've taken it in bite size versus thinking like, at least for me, because I can be an overthinker when it comes to that. And I'm like, or I think like,

I got to sit down, how am I going get through all of this? I got to find the time to do it. And I'm like, you have 10, 15 minutes out of your day to read 10 pages. And I'm doing that. ⁓ I use that as not even after 75 Fart and all that. I use that just as part of my reading anyways, just taking it by side. Some days I may read, it gets good to me. And end reading more than 10 pages. I read through a couple of chapters.

But that's how I found out how to read and get through some of these books, because I am a guy that would, I see a book, buy a book type thing. And my wife was like, I'm like, can I buy it? And she was like, don't you buy another book? And yeah, that is me. I have to buy books. I see people recommend books. I screenshot it. You know, if I don't get it right away, it's in my.

is in my phone to know to go back and get it or I'll put it in my Amazon cart just so that I can remember to go and get it. You know, whenever. So, yeah. One of those books that you highly recommend since you've been getting through so many of the one of the biggest I think I like the most and I think we kind of talked about is Eric Mason's books that he did on apologetics, ⁓ those urban apologetics, urban apologetics, those two. Just keep it in line with the apologetics.

⁓ Those are two of the, I think, ⁓ that I've read most recently. Let me pull up my...

because I'll go through and did not say, ⁓ one of the books I'm reading right now is called Good Morning Holy Spirit by Benny Hinn. I know people don't care for ⁓ Penny so much, but. Man, I've been seeing some things. mean, I'm. Yeah. Teeth stone. But yeah, but I like that book. But ⁓ E.W. Kenyon is probably one of my favorite authors. ⁓ you know, ⁓ from back in the day.

⁓ he has one of my favorite books that I read through probably once a year or so is, two kinds of righteousness by EW Kenyon. and he also has another one called two kinds of faith. ⁓ those are really, really good books, ⁓ that, ⁓ that I love to read. then probably, ⁓ shifting from apologetics, but

One of my favorite preachers right now is Dr. Darius Daniels. ⁓ So you said that I knew his course. Yeah, he's got a I just text him that day. Like, hey, man, I'm about to sign up for this uncommon calling collective. Yeah. I meant to get back to you about that. It's still open. So I'm invited to join in. But now, Pastor Darius is he's a phenomenal teacher.

Yeah, for sure. ⁓ And his book is Your Purpose is Calling. ⁓ I've gotten a lot of that. ⁓ And then nine, I guess, non-Christian book, would say, ⁓ which Christian principles. I don't know if you remember Sam Ocho. ⁓ Ocho Cinco? No, he used to play football player. His brother is a ⁓ sports. ⁓

Talkhead, whatever, and he's the one that had the controversy with Joey Taylor. ⁓ OK. But I didn't want to say it like that. yeah, he has two books out that I read through. ⁓ one is Let the World See You. And what was the other name of the other book? have the physical And you might have to text these to me. I will. I'll put the whole list up on the description for anybody that cares to.

Yeah, I got a lot. So I'll text it to you to add there. But yeah, he has a good book just about just life in general and getting out of your own way that let the world see you is a really good book to help someone that may be struggling with identity and who you are and being confident in who you are. That book helped me a lot this past year. So, yeah. Yeah, I'm going to have to check out some of those for sure.

I now shared this with you. This is more Orthodox Jewish apologetics, or it could be used for that, but I read a book recently called The Rabbi, The Secret Message, ⁓ and the Identity of Messiah.

And it's a it's a phenomenal book. It's a it's story that I didn't even I'd never heard of it. But that's when he was talking about. Yeah, you guys. I think three to text that to you. I'll send it to you. Yes. That's that's where I read up and had learned that the Orthodox Jews basically banned Isaiah 53. They they will not they will not go to that chapter. They they don't want anybody reading that chapter. It's like, well, this is your.

This is your holy book. You're going to admit a chapter. Yeah, because that chapter is pointing at.

Jesus clearly being the Messiah. So but on the tail end of that book, there's a lot of testimonies about how they're going out and they're converting a lot of Orthodox Jews over to messianic Judaism. Wow. Just by being able to utilize ⁓ this message from this ⁓ is one of their ⁓ rabbis, their most notorious ⁓ famous rabbis on

his deathbed. Well, a year before he dies, he announces that I've I've had basically an encounter with God and I know the identity of the Messiah. So I'm going to after a year after I pass, I'm going to release that information. So I've got a note I've left it for my family. And so it will be released once I'm Wow. And so he passes away a year later. They put it up on his website.

And it's kind of a seemingly kind of a cryptic message. And then like, well, this doesn't tell us who the Messiah is. And so they look at it a little bit further. I think several weeks in somebody decodes it. I guess, you know, I'm not an expert in Judaism, I guess historically they've used like the first letter of each word in the past to basically have a hidden message. And so when you take the first letter of

each word, the name of the Messiah is Yahushua. Wow. Yeah. And so once they figured it out, yeah, they pulled it down. They're like, this is a hoax. Yeah. It wasn't real. And tried to dispute it a million different ways. he was because I think he lived to be one hundred and eight. they're like he was out of his mind. You know, he was senile. Mm hmm. But he had been teaching students all the way up until his passing and he had converted.

several, I think 20, 30 of his students. Well, had testified that, this this is not a hoax. He he taught us and we also believe in your host was the Messiah. Yeah. And so, man, it flipped their whole world upside down because that was that was their guy. Right. Yeah. It's like it's like Billy Graham was to say something contrary to to Christianity. So they got they got their guy saying something.

Totally contrary. Yeah. What they want everybody to believe and it's really a great book. I thoroughly enjoyed it. I highly recommend it for sure. Yeah. I'm glad to get it. Yeah, man. Right on. on. Just not tell my wife. I'll let you take it if you want. Yeah, I'm definitely I want that sounds very interesting. I want to read that. Yeah, I'll let you borrow mine. I know we're

think we're about to wrap up, but I always want to open this up. I know you're not talking about this, everybody's got funny church stories. So tell us, man, what's your funniest church story? You got a good one? We like to go out with levity in the conversation. All that serious stuff. has its place, but we like to go out and a little laugh.

I don't know if it would be funny trying to tell it to you all because you all weren't there. ⁓ But I probably, to our church and our family is probably one of the funniest things. ⁓ And ⁓ it was a very emotional week. I'll preface it by that. We had just lost our Uncle Herman.

And ⁓ that Sunday morning that was was during the week that Sunday morning we had lost our childhood dog. I passed my dad's one of my dad's best friends. And so we you know so everybody was kind of sad. I was at the church and this is when we were on Blue Ridge. So I was at the church cleaning up before Sunday morning vacuuming and things like that. And so we get to service and. ⁓

We were in, ⁓ you know, that ⁓ that was getting ready to preach. One of my cousins get a get a phone call ⁓ and saying that one of our members. ⁓ Son's mother passed and had passed away. So I'm waiting for the funny part. ⁓ So we're getting there. So it's out. It's very sad. That's what I But we're getting there. So my mom.

goes back and she, we go back into the office, me and my mom, and so we call brother Dwayne, and again, it's thinking high emotions, right? So we call brother Dwayne and we say, ⁓ and ⁓ we ask him what happened, you know, happened? And he was saying, I think he was saying it might have been suicide. So we was like, why would she, you know, why would she do that? You know, we feeling all bad, you know.

compounded on our sadness. And so we were telling, so he's telling us what happened, whatever, that she passed. And so we get to her and so mom was like, I'm sorry, we hate to hear that. How's the son doing? And so he was like, yeah. And then he's telling us how she committed suicide. ⁓ And then he was like, ⁓ but they got her back. And so in that moment, it was very weird because we was like, so she didn't die?

And so because of that, like, so as soon as I heard that, and I'm like, I don't know why, and I think it was this guy helping us, but I started laughing. I did like, open my mouth. And so if you know me, serious moments, can't, like, I'll have a smile on my face. I can be feeling as bad as you are, like, but I will have a smile. It's a nervous smile. So I put my head up, and so my mom started laughing. And so we're in the back in my dad's office.

is like, and so we had to hurt him, get off the phone with Dwayne, because we didn't want him to know we laughing. And so we was like, OK, well, we're praying for you. All right. See you later. You know, and so we I mean, me and my mom are like, I'm talking about tears. We try to walk out to the front, like go back. the way our church was, it's often was in the back. So you have to walk by where dad's standing and preaching. So we attempt to go out. And soon as we get into like.

the hall, like the area to go into the sanctuary, we both started laughing all over again. So we go back to the back room. I mean, we did this probably about three times. And so we cracking up. And so we finally calmed down and we get out. We walk out. And my mom was like, my mom looked at my grandmother, my grandmother. Now, Mother Black is the most serious. Like, you better not laugh in church. You better not play in church.

So she my mom looked at my grandmother and said she's not dead. And so my grandmother looked.

And ⁓ my sister busted out laughing. Because if you know the situation, the way our cousin Nikki got the phone call, she's telling everybody she's dead. And so we come out saying she's not. My sister is just as goof as I am. She busted out laughing. And then my grandmother started laughing. And my mom don't laugh at like any. And so now it's like a trickle around the church of people just busting out

laughing. And so my dad is my dad is standing at the pulpit like he just kind of like this stop. He got his Because he had his paws like but he is like dialed in and then he just starts singing a worship song to try to get everybody to calm back down. But probably that's probably probably one of my the most funniest experience that I had that was should not be funny.

It should be sad, but it's me and my mom. And to this day, me and my mom, will talk about that. Like what I remember is we like that was probably one of the most funniest Sundays because why are you laughing at a lady that did not die? Like we should be happy. Like we should be joy, like excited, you know, but it was just emotions already on high.

And then we expect like we're sad like and then he was like she didn't die. I was like what? She ain't dead. And for whatever reason when my mama said she ain't dead it just hit me over the edge and we laughed. And to this day this was probably about this had to be probably about 12 years ago and to this day we will still laugh like it was the first day like it happened that moment. And to see my grandmother laugh.

with us that knowing like she shouldn't. My grandmother is one you never go like Mother Black is you don't play church. You don't play none of that. And when she started laughing, Brother John started laughing. Then everybody knew it was a game. that point, everybody just I mean, all busted out laughing. It was like sometimes I think, you know, this sounds like it was a really rough week other than a session of laughing. Yeah. But sometimes I feel like the Lord

something like that just to give you a little relief. After his good medicine. Yeah. And disclaimer, suicide is not funny. None of that is funny. Death is not funny. But in that very moment, God gave us what we needed because it a rough week and was to this day, I can still hear my sister like and she started it with like we were laughing, we covered up whatever they didn't hear us. But soon as my mom told my

grandmother.

My sister went, just went out and because of that it just yeah it was the funniest thing. There's other funny stories but that probably was my my funniest that I experienced. Shout out Lady Sherri Guggenon. I know my wife is I didn't have a weird

relationship on Facebook. they do. It's so weird. And I asked my mom why, and she said, I think one day ⁓ Jontay said to her,

Happy birthday's Fred's mother. And so my mom, being who she is, I think she, when it was Shante's birthday, she says, happy birthday, Fred's friend. I think it was something like that. They go back and forth like that has been their thing for many years now. I don't even know if they know each other's name. They just Fred's brother, Fred's friend. I don't think they've ever really met and talked in person. Right, right. That's funny. And so that's how, yeah.

For people, y'all know, y'all seen my father and my mother, but behind closed doors, they're probably some of the funniest people. You would not expect my dad, very calm, quiet, don't really talk much, unless he's preaching or doing praise and worship, but.

probably some of the funniest and most goofiest people you will probably ever meet. So people that get to meet them in that arena, in that space, they understand. that's why my weird

Laughter at certain stuff that you shouldn't laugh at. get that from my mom. My mom is the one and she's the reason why that's the best. When you shouldn't be. You shouldn't be. Yeah, I'm just picturing y'all trying to walk out multiple times and one of y'all looking at the other one and just busting up again. Yeah, like it's easy. You can hold it together until the other person like gives you that smirk and then you lose it again. I mean, we I mean, I can I can picture.

that moment and it was, mean, vividly walking out of Dad's house and I'm sitting there just like holding my mouth like because I'm trying my best because my dad is preaching. Like, so he's not just, he didn't just open up, he wasn't just reading the scripture. Like he was into his message. He was hooping already. Yeah, so it was like. He stopped mid-hoop. Yeah, just like. Is everybody laughing at me? So he just, I mean, just calmly started singing a.

praise a worship song, brought everybody back in. Get your minds in. I mean, he didn't say anything. And that was even funnier, too. Thinking about it, he didn't say anything. He just started singing a song and everybody just kind of calmed back down. And then once everybody was calm, he stopped singing and went right back into the fest. And so, yeah, and so after service, was another laughing fest because of how he handed it to.

Man, well, man, we thank you for coming and sitting with us and chopping it up with us today. We've gone a little bit over what we wanted to, but like I said, we tend to do that from time to time. The only reason we gotta stop now, I know you have a prior commitment and we're trying to accommodate for it, but man, we'd love to have you again and go a little deeper into everything we've talked about and some other subjects. And I just enjoyed our conversation here with you today.

Anything you got?

I just appreciate you being willing to come on and share your testimony with us, with our audience. Definitely, like Marcus said, love to have you back. We do have the intent of eventually having more people around this table, some nonbelievers that have questions that would we would love to have somebody that has some background in studying apologetics such as yourself. you this dude's a scholar. Man, So yeah, man.

And

hopefully this ain't the last time you join us. Yeah, no, I appreciate you all having me here. Hope I didn't talk too much and all that, man. I enjoy it and I'm excited for what you all are doing. ⁓

Yeah, man, I'm willing to be back whenever. But ⁓ yeah, man, I ⁓ made sure before we even got on that I followed in and watched. So I'm excited to see what you all do with your line of Judah podcast. And yeah, man. And I will ⁓ overlook disrespect coming in that.

head gear in here. I'll overlook it. This is your first time on. So, you know, we all we all make mistakes first time around. if you have me back, I'll make sure I have even more. Well, thank them. Thank God for technology. We just blow blur your whole head out. Yeah. Keep your voice. We could blur all that out. But I think I think Ben would appreciate it. So this is a two person show. We can do roles next time.

We will do no such thing. We appreciate having you on being with us today. Amen. We just like, just love everyone for joining us today. Stay tuned.

for more great content, I'm lying to you the podcast. ⁓ As we do whenever we leave here, we know our scripture, study, show thyself, approve unto God, a workman that needs not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. Second Timothy, second chapter, 15th verse. God bless you. God bless y'all.