In this episode Jeff Melnyk and Carol Kondo share personal insights and a practical three-step process for addressing social justice issues in the workplace:

1. Listen: They stress the importance of creating a safe space for open dialogue and encourage leaders to genuinely listen to their employees' feelings and perspectives on social issues. This isn't just about hearing words—it's about fostering an environment where healthy debate and diverse viewpoints are welcomed and respected.

2. Show Support: Leaders need to show genuine allyship. This means taking actions that align with the company's core values and choosing which issues to support thoughtfully. Jeff and Carol remind us that it's okay not to tackle every issue—focus on those that truly resonate with your organization's mission and values.

3. Change Your Business: Finally, they advocate for making strategic changes that reflect your company's values and long-term goals. Jeff and Carol emphasize the importance of considering the broader impact of these changes, ensuring they lead to lasting, positive outcomes.

Learn more in our latest blog and about Within People the work we do here.

So Carol, every time you and I get on the podcast, I

2

usually open with like, what's

the weather like in Cape Town?

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Because I find it fascinating that

you have the opposite weather to me.

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And we're talking about

meteorological weather.

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Literally, I'm sitting here in

California, it couldn't be warmer outside.

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And I know that this is a period of

deep cold as you start to move into the

7

Cape Town tonian South African winter.

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Carol Kondo: Well Jeff, it's cold I must

say, you know, Capetonian houses were

9

never built for traditional winters.

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So it kind of feels like I'm sitting in

the refrigerator because the walls are

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cold now and we're beginning to put on

our winter blankies and our scarves.

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So it's hibernation time, soup season.

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one of our biggest clients

sells a lot of soup in the

14

season because yeah, yeah, yeah.

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One of their fast

selling products is soup.

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So yeah.

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Soup season.

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Jeff Melnyk: Okay.

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Soup season.

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Soup season.

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And more kdramas for you.

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Does this, this is the cozy

weather to open up the portal

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of, I'm sure listeners will know.

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And remember that Carol's Deep love

of life is the K drama, although

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now also the Taiwanese drama.

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There must be just such a library of,

of drama out there that you can access

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that I just have not opened the door up.

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Carol Kondo: Asia opened its heart

to me, and there's so much learning.

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Jeff, if you knew just how much

Asian TV is contributing to

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my work, you would be pleased.

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Jeff Melnyk: I'm very happy for

this as part of your professional

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development, and we're not giving

them enough acknowledgments for that,

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Carol Kondo: Like for real, like recently

that this whole online thing that I was

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watching and I happened to be working

with an online team and I could speak

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about backend and blah blah blah.

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So it's a really contributing

to my work with the college.

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Jeff Melnyk: for real.

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So that level of even technical

depth you're taking you into

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and everyone was like, gosh, you

really know our online world.

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Carol Kondo: They are on it.

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Jeff Melnyk: It's different from when

I just make a Cher reference about, you

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know, just something that literally no

one in the Gen Z generation understands.

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I actually had someone say to

me the other day, who is Cher?

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And I feel like this podcast is

not going to be to educate that

45

generation on Cher, but we can do.

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But what is the social impact

weather in South Africa?

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What Right now, what's been

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Carol Kondo: happening?

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Social impact, whether we're

heading into elections, Jeff.

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So with elections in South Africa,

usually what happens is a lot of

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people get thrown under the bus.

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it's the good thing though is we

haven't had lots of load shedding and

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that happens towards election time.

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Things suddenly get worse.

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Keeping

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Jeff Melnyk: them

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Carol Kondo: to you and the agendas, but

we've also had quite a lot of issues,

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you know between South Africa and the U.

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S.

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currently, So, there's lots of

issues there currently in the

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ether here in South Africa.

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Jeff Melnyk: Yeah.

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So, For some of the listeners

who may not know, load shedding

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is when the power goes out.

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Which, for someone that has to work

with Carol is deeply frustrating

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when you're in the middle of a

conversation and she just disappears.

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And you're like, was it something I

said that you just had to like, leave?

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But of course.

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For a team that works hybrid and

remote, who rely on the internet

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and zoom, load shedding is a

deeply upsetting thing for me.

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So thank you ANC for providing, providing

some sugar for the voters right now.

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so it's a hot political time.

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We also have a team in the UK.

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There is also an election.

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We also have a team here in the US.

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There is also an election.

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So this is a time of change

across our various teams.

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And it's also a time when things are

starting to heat up in other areas

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of, of we're starting to notice

some things when we're sitting here.

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Have you been hearing about the

campus protests in South Africa?

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Does that news reach you?

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Cause it's quite.

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It's quite a big deal here right now.

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Carol Kondo: It is a big deal, not as much

here, but I do follow a very interesting

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young lady on Instagram, and she's an

advocate for education, and she recently

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received quite a lot of hate on her page

because she is protesting against some

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of the protests that are happening, and

she took a stand and there were lots

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of horrible comments that were sent her

way and she's like all I'm saying is let

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children be allowed to go to school and

whoever's wrong whoever's right really

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doesn't matter to me at this point but

can children be allowed to go to school

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and if you really understand some of these

issues it's not about who's right and

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who's wrong but there's some basic things

that we need to get right at this point.

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Jeff Melnyk: So in our conversation

today, we were hoping to dissect

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some of those, that's a very real

issue you've just shared there.

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And what certainly something we've been

seeing a lot lately around polarization

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of issues in America, in the UK has always

been part of the, not always been part of

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the South African story, but in the last.

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Many decades it has been a part of

the fabric of society, and I wanted us

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today to focus around how that impacts

inside business and what the leaders

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can or can't do about it, how they show

up to it and, how that is impacting

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the world of work at the moment,

because what's happening outside is

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definitely being brought inside work.

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Tell me, Why is it such

a big issue right now?

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What is contributing to a lot of the

tension in the social justice movement?

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And why is that moving inside work

to the degree that it has been

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over the past couple of years?

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Carol Kondo: I think it

should come into work.

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She's hot out of the gate,

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Jeff Melnyk: folks.

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Carol Kondo: because what's happening

outside work has happened to real people.

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And we can't expect things that are

happening to real people outside work

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not to affect the people inside work.

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Organizations are servicing people

and businesses are about people,

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whether they are producing products.

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The products are to be consumed by people.

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So nowadays it's difficult

to say, I run an organization

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and I will not take a stand.

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No, whatever it is that I'm

selling is impacting or I'm

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giving it to somebody else.

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So What is it that businesses are

willing to stand for that affects people?

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And how possible is it for us to

say, whatever you are feeling and

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seeing outside, keep it out there.

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And when you come into the business

place, de robe and you come in as

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our employee only, we want you in the

purest form of an employee, whatever

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you're feeling Should just be left out

there and should not come in with you.

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And I think that's an impossible

expectation because if the issues outside

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we're making these people happy, we

would say to them, Oh, bring your joy.

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You know, whatever is

making you happy outside.

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Let it inspire the workplace.

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So why are we then saying to

them what's affecting you outside

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mustn't affect the workplace.

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Let's bring it in and have

a conversation about it.

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What's happening?

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Let's talk about that.

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Jeff Melnyk: So it's quite difficult

for leaders to hold that, don't they?

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Because they want the joy, right?

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They want employee satisfaction.

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They want employee happiness.

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And now suddenly people are unhappy.

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They're unhappy outside work.

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They're unhappy with the

situation in society.

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They're bringing that

unhappiness into the business.

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What's going on in leaders today?

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Why can't they hold that ability to see

that this is possibly something that's

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come inside their business and that, that

maybe there even is a positive aspect?

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Carol Kondo: Well, Jeff, I

think it's the oldest thing.

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I think that has existed

in humanity, fear.

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And these topics, to be honest

with you, are huge topics.

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We're talking of things like Black Lives

Matter, our current situation right

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now, you know, with the Israeli wars.

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Those are huge topics and they're

scary topics because you're scared

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of being canceled, you're scared

of saying the wrong thing, you're

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scared of being accused of being a

co conspirator later on in history.

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You don't want to go down in history as

being that organization that supported

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that particular way of being, you know.

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And all of us innately wants to be

seen and regarded as good people.

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And the truth is we will

draw the protect our images.

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Most of the time we condone

bad things because of our fear.

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So can we overcome our fear

and really face reality with

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what is happening around us?

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And sometimes let go of the fear and

say, you know what, if I die, I die.

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But this is the stance

that I take as a business.

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You know, we are going to

provide education to those

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kids, whether somebody's bombing

the left or bombing the right.

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At the end of the day, I'm taking

textbooks to those kids that are not

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going to school, because the aim of my

business is to produce books and publish

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books to educate children over there.

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Jeff Melnyk: Yeah, and can they rise

above that polarization of, of one side

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or the other to understand, you know,

this is what we're here for, this is

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our purpose, this is the impact we're

trying to make in the world, these

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are our values that we stand for.

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And irrespective of a left or

a right, or a this way or that

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way, that we have something.

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a value to, to bring into the

world, and that's why we're here.

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And I think sometimes that

gets lost in the polarization.

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And that we are tribal people.

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We are humans that love to find

belonging within our tribes.

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And if one, if our tribe feels

that one side or the other is the

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right or the wrong, we are going

to want to feel comfort in joining

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in to that side of the tribe.

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and it's quite hard for people to hold.

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That level of difference of opinion

or difference of perspective

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or right or wrong, isn't it?

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Carol Kondo: Very true, Jeff.

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But I think what's coming up for me

as you say that is, I think it's so

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important to go back to why we started

the organization in the first place.

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When we started the organization,

there was no Black Lives Matter.

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There was no war that was going on.

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We were about providing a service.

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if we can go back to why we started,

why the business that we started

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in the first place, these are the

things become peripheral issues.

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we can actually choose the right

side, which is why we started our

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business, not to choose to take a side.

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That I don't think is a business position,

but providing the service to the people

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we want to provide the service to is a

business decision and a business position.

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And if we choose not to provide a

service anymore, then we've taken

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a side against a war or something

else that's going on at that time.

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Jeff Melnyk: So our actions are going

to define the fact of whether or not

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we've taken a side or not anyway.

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So by that very de facto nature,

Carol, you're saying it's okay

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to take a side or a position.

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Carol Kondo: I think, I honestly believe

that it's okay to take a position.

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Take a position and stand with it.

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Because either way, when you don't take

a position, you've taken a position.

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It's like somebody who's

watching you get mugged.

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And they say, I didn't take a position.

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Yet they folded their

hands and watched you.

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That is a position, you know?

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Jeff Melnyk: The bystander effect.

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And I think that's what a

lot of organizations are

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getting accused of, right?

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If you don't take this side or position.

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You are on the wrong side of history

and therefore you are the ones that are

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the co conspirators with the oppressed

or the ones that want, that value the

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lawlessness of our, of our colleges today.

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so that becomes quite a touchy

topic for leaders, doesn't it?

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If I take a side or position because of

what I feel is right for our purpose and

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our business, I feel quite pressured to

take a certain kind of side or position.

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And you mentioned before that sort

of fear of getting cancelled, which

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is very real in, in our world today.

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If I take the wrong side,

they're going to come for me.

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Carol Kondo: And they will come for you.

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It is true.

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That is not a lie.

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I'm not going to sit here and say to you,

Oh, don't worry, they won't come for you.

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They will come for you.

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But the truth is this as well.

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Even if they do come for you, I think

there's something there with being

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firm around this is the position

That I'm taking and if you do cancel

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me, but at least you cancel me for

something that I stood firmly for

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rather than just going with the flow

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Is there any integrity with following

a flow and being part of the masses

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instead of really questioning

as a leader is the position that

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we are taking really seriously.

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about what we are about as a business?

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Is this in alignment

with what we are about?

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When we look at our values, when

we look at our purpose, is this in

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alignment with who we are as a brand?

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If the answer is still

yes, then go for it.

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If the answer is no, then

something is fundamentally wrong.

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Jeff Melnyk: Carol, what do

you think about when something

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becomes quite personal?

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You know, there's certain issues for

leaders that are, that touch them,

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that touch their sense of identity or

who they are, I'll speak personally.

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I think, you know, the war in

Ukraine intensified that was

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personal for me, I'm Ukrainian.

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it's something that matters to me.

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When I see trans rights being eroded day

by day here in America, it is personal

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for me, I'm not trans myself, but I

am a member of a community where these

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people are deeply important to me.

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Do I have a right as a founder

or as a leader to take the

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business in a certain direction?

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Because I think this is a topic

that I've noticed with leaders is

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a space of deep confusion for them.

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Is it about my personal stance

or is it about the business?

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Carol Kondo: You have to be honest with

you because I found myself in the same

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position as well as a woman of color

because race for me is huge and there

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are times I feel is this about me and

the trauma of being a woman of color?

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Or it's about the topic that's

being discussed currently.

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And I think the self awareness in being

able to pull those two things apart

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is so useful when you make a call.

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If you decide to make a call about

the issue in Ukraine right now

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and make it about Ukraine rather

than it being personal about

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what is happening to me as Jeff.

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If you pull those things apart and say

within people is standing against this

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because this is fundamentally wrong.

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I think that separates it from being

Jeff has been attacked or Carol

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has been attacked as a black woman

because that, I think we tend to leak.

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And when I talk about leaking, I'm

talking from a, an emotional place.

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And once you lead with emotion, it really

pulls away from the integrity of the

271

message that you're trying to put across.

272

It takes away also from the

power and the strength of what

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it is that you want to say.

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And people hear emotion

rather than logic and fact.

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This is wrong because, rather than

it being, I feel like this because

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I am like this or I am like that.

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Jeff Melnyk: There's a bit of

vulnerability there to be able to say, I

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do feel something about this personally.

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I have, an emotional response to this.

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And we have a business and this is

the business's perspective around it.

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What's your take on that?

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Because I've heard from leaders who've

said, I'm not going to bring this in.

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this is not about me

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And I deeply feel that this is something

our business needs to do or not do.

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And I in that, even in that statement, I'm

hearing, but it is still personal to you.

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is it better for leaders to say, Hey,

I'm Ukrainian this is important to

287

me, and I can see a perspective that

actually leads us to want to talk about

288

what the impact is in our business.

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Can we acknowledge, at least,

that we are human beings who will

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be having an emotional response?

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Carol Kondo: I think that's

more authentic, and what we

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want from leaders is, why lie?

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but I feel like there's something

real that people can connect to

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because it's like me saying as a

black woman, this is not affecting me.

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When I speak to myself and how it's

affecting me, it makes me relatable

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because it means that I'm acknowledging

that something here is real, but it's not

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stopping me from understanding the bigger

impact of what is happening around me.

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And that's more than just.

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my connection to it from a personal level.

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Jeff Melnyk: I agree.

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And I feel that there's some role

modeling there to be able to say, this has

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happened, this is how it is impacting me.

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I'm feeling this, and we need to be able

to look at the different perspectives

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of this social issue so that we can

act through our business in a way

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that is in accordance with our values.

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That to me is a bit of role modeling that

I would love to see more of in the world.

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for people to be able to hold that

nuance and be able to go, I feel

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this, I understand it from my personal

perspective, and I want to be able

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to see it from a broader perspective.

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Because I'm not sure we can get to a

space of reconciliation unless we're

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able to hold Those different sides of

feeling and reason, we have to be able to

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acknowledge how we're feeling, and to be

able to look at things from many different

313

sides, and I feel unless that, start

verbalizing that, and navigating that

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as leaders, We're not role modeling it.

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Carol Kondo: I think it's so important

to bring back feelings once more

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into the workplace because there's

a whole thing against talking about

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feelings as well in the workplace.

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It's not considered very professional

to talk about feel this way.

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And if we're going to discuss social

issues and social injustices, we

320

have to talk about feelings because

the root of any, the fact that the

321

word is injustice sits in feelings.

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I feel that I wasn't treated fairly.

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I feel that there was

a microaggression here.

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I feel unfairly treated.

325

And we cannot properly talk about an

injustice without talking about feelings.

326

Jeff Melnyk: Yes, and I feel that part

of the reason why leaders struggle in

327

that space is dealing with the emotion

is something that they find difficult

328

to, that's an energy that's hard to

contain, and what I've heard, what

329

I've heard is, Things are hot in the

culture right now, in our business.

330

People are having a lot of feels and it

feels like I've got a mutiny on my hands

331

and I don't know how to deal with it.

332

I feel a lot of energy coming

at me, a lot of charged energy.

333

And that's not something that

every executive leader or manager

334

knows how to deal with, is it?

335

Carol Kondo: I don't think there's

actually a lot of people, even if

336

you're not an executive, would know

how to deal with that charged energy.

337

That's just the truth.

338

No one was prepared to deal with this kind

of energy at this point, but acknowledging

339

that this is the energy that we find

ourselves in at this point is useful.

340

And naming it, and talking to it, I think

is a useful first step in, you know what,

341

this is what I'm sensing in the air,

this is what this is about, let's talk

342

about it, would be a great first step.

343

Jeff Melnyk: I agree, And we put

together a little bit of a three step

344

process to help leaders for this very

reason, because the first thing that

345

we wanted to recommend before anyone

got to any action around social impact

346

was to create a space to listen.

347

So we've got some resources

online for, for folks.

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I want to talk through the three steps,

but Carol, we could spend hours just

349

going into the depth of the three steps.

350

But I wanted to get your opinion on

the three steps, because looking at

351

them again, how do we start to put

a little bit more texture around it?

352

So the three steps to take around social

justice issues that start to impact

353

inside the business are listen, show

support, and change your business.

354

So we've got some resources online

to help with that, but I thought we

355

could unpack each of them, but go

into a little bit more depth of where

356

I'm starting to see some nuance that

I find fascinating at the moment.

357

So the first one we've just

been talking about is listen.

358

how do we stop, hold the space

as leaders and bring people.

359

The chance to speak to their feels, which

is what we were just talking about there.

360

But one thing that we didn't really

put in our guidance was allowing

361

people to debate the issue.

362

And I'm curious, Carol, on

your perspective around that.

363

is this space of listening, can we

actually encourage folks to talk out the

364

issue a little bit and bring some debate

into the business around the polarization,

365

or the right side and wrong side.

366

Carol Kondo: I think it's a beautiful

opportunity to hear different opinions.

367

The fear is, being able to hold

that conversation safely and not

368

letting it get out of hand where

people end up exchanging fists, but

369

allow that conversation to happen.

370

It's healthy because you will never

know what the other person knows

371

and the other perspective up until

you let that conversation happen.

372

So I wouldn't call it a debate, but let's

call it an exchange of perspectives.

373

Let's hear what's happening

on the other side.

374

What let's bring curiosity and invite

creativity into this conversation.

375

What allows you to hold that perspective?

376

What informs that thinking?

377

What's your lived experience that

has brought you to this place and

378

leaders creating that space and they.

379

being the person that brings these people

and groups together is powerful because

380

what it's saying is I'm giving you an

opportunity to come from two different

381

angles but come into the same room and

I am providing that for you, meaning

382

I'm not saying either side is wrong

and both of these truths can be truths.

383

Jeff Melnyk: That is so powerful, and

something that I feel is missing in

384

the world, never mind in business.

385

And I've been reading The Coddling of

the American Mind by Jonathan Haidt.

386

I don't know how this book missed me.

387

what he's saying is, we haven't been

allowing children throughout the last

388

generation to learn how to hold different

polarizing opinions, because There's

389

been a bit of a lawnmower parenting

that has just allowed children to have

390

the easiest ride through growing up,

which means that when they're faced in

391

a situation now of increased anxiety,

polarization, charged, they don't know how

392

to hold different polarizing opinions or

different nuance and different feelings.

393

So look, that's Jonathan

Haidt's perspective.

394

I think it's fascinating if

that's the source of why.

395

We can't step into those kinds

of conversations, but I would

396

like us to encourage that kind of

discussion in business, and I think

397

I would like to encourage leaders

to learn how to hold that space.

398

It's not just to hold the space to

listen, it's a space to discuss and

399

to find each other's common ground.

400

Carol Kondo: And sometimes even if

the ground is not common at all, let

401

us accept that two different truths

can coexist side by side in harmony.

402

Jeff Melnyk: Okay.

403

The second one was show support.

404

And that was really about how do you

show allyship or as we said on our pride

405

podcast, all about how do you become an

accomplice to actually demonstrate that

406

you're standing side by side with someone.

407

And I think we've always said, as we

were saying earlier, that this has to

408

be about being in alignment with your

values, showing impact, but rather than

409

just showing support from a performative

angle, being able to actually show

410

something that's quite meaningful.

411

And we've talked a little bit about

leaders avoiding getting personal.

412

I'm hearing that you're saying

that this demonstration of support

413

needs to be something that,

Demonstrates what you stand for.

414

And is it okay, Carol, to not

show support on all of these?

415

There's a lot of issues out there.

416

Is it okay just to not have to

show some support sometimes?

417

Carol Kondo: To be honest with

you, there's so many of these

418

issues that are coming at us.

419

And the truth is we

won't be able to keep up.

420

So I think it's important for

you to have an impactful voice.

421

You've got to choose your battles.

422

Very wisely.

423

So choose the areas that are really

important to you as a business, the

424

areas that will have the most impact,

the ones that are most powerful for you.

425

You can't be responding to everything

really as an organization and be known

426

as that organization that is responding

to every single thing that's out there.

427

It also doesn't orient you quite well.

428

So there is something about

articulating what is important to

429

you and responding to the things

that are important to you and letting

430

others also have a piece of the pie.

431

Jeff Melnyk: Yeah, it makes some space

for those that want to show support

432

in their own way for other things.

433

We can put our energy and our

voice to the things that really

434

matter and are in alignment.

435

With our purpose and our values.

436

One thing I know that's happened in this

space is when we haven't shown support

437

for things I've heard leaders saying

that Alongside the mutiny, they've had

438

some employees decide that this isn't

the place that they want to work anymore.

439

And employees are going through that,

that very real situation of deciding,

440

is this the employer that I want to

work for if they're not showing support

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to the issues that matter to me?

442

And Carol, what advice do you have

for the employees who are looking at

443

their employer and thinking they're

not showing support for that, for

444

that issue that really matters to me.

445

And I think I don't

want to be here anymore.

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Carol Kondo: Well, honestly,

I work in the culture space.

447

And I believe that you've got to love

where you work, and where you work

448

is more than just about the people.

449

It's about what they believe in.

450

It's about their values.

451

And if you feel there's a misalignment

in what you believe in and what the

452

organization believes in, I think

it's time for you to call it a day.

453

two different truths can coexist.

454

And the other truth says, this

is not the right place for me.

455

And not because they are wrong.

456

But this is just not the environment

where I feel that I would thrive.

457

So let me find like minded people

where I can have these conversations

458

or we can talk about these things

and advocate for them and I'd really

459

feel I'm supported in that way.

460

So I would really encourage you to find

like minded organizations that would

461

support you to show up fully in that way.

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Jeff Melnyk: I agree, and I feel that

the advice that I've often given to

463

employees over the years is if this

is so important to you, maybe you

464

might want to change profession.

465

Because if you really want to follow

your truth and your passion, go

466

and work somewhere where you're

really making a difference with

467

the thing that matters most to you.

468

Do not use your tech company as a

business for your social impact change.

469

That fintech company that you're

working for Isn't going to make the

470

difference that you want to see in

the world And I think that's the trap

471

people get into is they find themselves

in a career They're very passionate

472

about the things that matter to them

and they can't reconcile those two

473

things And it takes quite a bit of self

awareness to go I'm in the wrong job.

474

I'm in the wrong career.

475

Never mind.

476

I'm in the wrong company.

477

Carol Kondo: I think what you're

speaking to there, Jeff, is something

478

actually that most people don't

realize is a beautiful change that

479

is happening within themselves.

480

They feel it and they seem to

think, Oh my God, this is a crisis.

481

It's not a crisis.

482

It's you coming into yourself.

483

And when you realize that I'm no longer

in alignment with what is happening,

484

celebrate because it's happening.

485

Things are really falling into place and

you realize I'm not in the right place.

486

This job is no longer meaningful

and we advocate a lot for meaningful

487

work and meaningful work is no

longer just about compensation.

488

It's about what the work

does for you in and outside.

489

So if it means leaving so that you feel

fulfilled, outside work as well, then

490

I'd really advocate that you do that.

491

Jeff Melnyk: And then as a leader to know

that that person is then following their

492

personal purpose and where they want to

go, what a beautiful gift that they've

493

had that epiphany in the space of working

with you and you've encouraged that.

494

I think when leaders feel like,

oh, I'm losing talent, I must

495

retain that person at any cost.

496

That is the wrong energy to

bring to someone's development.

497

So I deeply encourage folks

to follow their passion.

498

That's how they find

their greatest work to do.

499

And I think when leaders try to hold

that back, that's a disservice to them,

500

their culture, and to the individuals.

501

Okay.

502

The third was change your business.

503

So we said, listen, show support,

change your business around both

504

the pride conversations around this.

505

And also with Ukraine, we said,

there's three different ways that

506

you might change your business.

507

You might be forced.

508

To change your business, which was a

very real situation during the sanctions

509

that were going on with Russia, you

think you should change your business.

510

So there's a little bit of a feeling

that maybe this is going to be

511

in the best interest of you and

your, and your customers, or you

512

choose to change your business.

513

Now, obviously we would advocate

for the choose to change.

514

Carol, we feeling, but we were saying

before about in alignment with our

515

purpose and values, but should leaders

feel pressure to change their business?

516

This is what we're seeing right now

in college and on campus in America.

517

Colleges in America are businesses.

518

They are financed through investment.

519

The stock market, that's

how it works, folks.

520

We invest in things and companies

have tendrils all around the world.

521

And obviously now presidents are

being asked to divest because

522

they're getting pressure from

their customers or their employees.

523

Students are the customer of a university.

524

Very interesting concept, isn't it?

525

So should leaders feel pressure to change?

526

Carol Kondo: That's a

very interesting one.

527

Should, must, eh?

528

We used to call them modal

verbs, isn't it, in English?

529

Should, must.

530

There's an obligation here from

somebody who's asking somebody

531

else to do something here.

532

is this really the right thing to do?

533

And I think that's a very

fundamental question that businesses

534

don't ask themselves anymore.

535

Before we take a side, I think one

of the most important questions

536

that we forget to ask ourselves,

even as individuals who lead people,

537

is this the right thing to do?

538

And I think that's we forget to

ask ourselves that many a time.

539

And before you should, must, can,

and any other modal verb you want

540

to use, maybe ask yourself whether

that is the right thing to do.

541

Jeff Melnyk: I love that.

542

And also to think deeply about

the consequences beyond it.

543

Get strategic, go to 30, 000 feet.

544

That one thing that we're being told

we must, should, have to do today

545

may not be in the best interest

of everyone in the long term.

546

And it really is.

547

the executive's job to look at that

highest level and think what are the

548

impacts for all of our stakeholders

on this change not just that one

549

thing that may seem like a band

aid quick fix solution right now

550

.

Carol Kondo: It is.

551

And I wonder, 30 years from today,

whether some of these things that

552

we're really advocating for, we

really feel the same way about them.

553

And will our opinions be as strong?

554

And if we are building

organizations, are we building

555

organizations that we want to last?

556

We'll have legacies that are way beyond

our time and our tenures as leaders.

557

What is our thinking around all that?

558

That should inform some of the

decisions that we are making.

559

And not just think up

to the tip of our noses.

560

Jeff Melnyk: I think that's a

beautiful invitation, Carol.

561

I think that is the thing, just

when you said that, I thought.

562

What a wonderful space of curiosity

for a leader to actually step into.

563

Is this going to make the change?

564

If I stand here today, 30 years into

the future, will I have stood by that

565

decision because I felt that was the

thing that really made the difference?

566

and I look around today and see

that some of the things that people

567

are doing is not going to lead.

568

To long standing change and I think

it takes courage and conviction for a

569

leader to say that thing that you're

asking me to do that you think I should

570

and must do is not going to create a

change you want to see in the world.

571

Thank you.

572

We will take this course

of action instead.

573

Carol Kondo: Very deep topics, yeah.

574

Jeff Melnyk: I hope that we touched on

a couple of things that might be useful.

575

thank you for helping me step into

the space around some of the questions

576

I'm holding, especially around

things like debate, like, oh, let's

577

move that into the the discussion.

578

discussion as well.

579

I think that the notion

of is something personal.

580

How do we step into a space of feeling

and emotion and understand how we

581

hold the nuance of a situation?

582

the modal verb is now back in my world

in a way that the Oxford comma has also

583

found its way back into my world, Carol.

584

And I'd like to thank our

clients for introducing that

585

bit of punctuational divide.

586

Talk about diversity.

587

as a Canadian that lived in

the UK, the Oxford comma is

588

just not something that we do.

589

It's just not a thing.

590

The American in the room is like, of

course we would use the Oxford comma.

591

Diversity, inclusion, belonging.

592

We can all have different

forms of punctuation.

593

Thank you, Carol.

594

This is not the last of this conversation.

595

I feel like that the more we step into

the depths of what's going on around

596

what leaders are really thinking and

feeling in this space, I hope that

597

we bring something useful to them.

598

We also learned something

useful in ourselves.

599

So thank you very much.

600

Carol Kondo: so much

for holding the space.

601

And yeah, would love to

do this with you again.

602

Jeff Melnyk: Thanks so much

for listening, everyone.

603

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605

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606

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