Hey, Megan, let's do a podcast.

Great idea. What should we talk about? In this episode, we get to listen in on a conversation I had with Josh Cavalier, who is doing a ton of work in Generative AI and in helping L and D teams build in these new tools to our workflows. Hope you enjoy this conversation. All right, so in my job, I have this opportunity to talk to so many super cool people just as part of my daily working with folks. And what I love about this is the opportunity to share this conversation that I have with some of my favorite people out with everybody else. So everybody else might as well have an opportunity to get in on this. Josh Cavalier, thank you so much for having this conversation with me.

And I want to pick your brain. But first, before we get into that, how are you introducing yourself these days, Mr. Man of Reinvention?

Yeah, so that would be founder of JoshCavalier. AI is how it shows up today. But I would say that I would be an education technologist if I had to go ahead and summarize my whole career. And that has shown up in various ways for the last 30 years. So, yeah, education technology has been my jam.

Just for perspective, because I know your story, but you tell it better. What's the short version? Because it's an interesting thread that I think a lot of people might resonate with.

Yeah. So I got started in 94 as an art director for an elearning firm based in Charlotte, North Carolina, which is where I still live. And that was during the 90s. And what I loved about that period was very large budgets and trying to figure out the technology. And that allowed a lot of opportunity to test and try different things both within, like the personal computer and then eventually the Internet and eventually the mobile phone. Now after that experience, I went ahead and started my own training business, Lodestone. We were one of the top Adobe authorized training partners in the United States. And while I was doing that, I was still going into L and D departments and spinning up edtech.

Now that typically would show up as far as like captivate classes, storyline classes, but I would also do LMS and LXP rubrics and just general education technology implementation. Then Covid happened and, you know, the timing was pretty wild. I decided to jump back into corporate and worked for a $5 billion supply chain company in as an individual contributor, not as a leader. And so that was kind of an odd but interesting experience. I worked on extremely visible large projects. One was a data and analytics product that we had and. And I would Spin up frontline sales on that product. We also did Microsoft Teams implementation when Covid hit.

And we also did a whole project that was 360 virtual tour of a new office and all kinds of really cool things. Then AI shows up. And being an education technologist and an entrepreneur, the writing was on the wall that, you know, we have these inflection points in our career and I've seen them over and over again where, you know, this is rare and this is going to have significant impact. So I went down the rabbit hole and I found myself completely immersed in the technology. Now that being said, you know, before I was speaking on artificial intelligence, I was doing video. I was the micro video guy for years, five, six years, talking about great stuff.

We hired you to teach us micro video.

Exactly. Now what's fascinating is that even during that time I was looking at the work at IBM, at MIT and at Google on vision AI because I thought the way that AI was going to show up was that vision technology was going to be used to look at inter frame context of what was going on. And then videos could be reconstituted based upon personal skill gaps or knowledge gaps. That is definitely becoming more reality. And I thought that's how AI was going to show up. The way that I heard about ChatGPT is because AI like, you know, I had a Google News tickler on AI and then I saw this news story come out in the New York Times and I was like, hey, let me go check out Chat GPT. And I get in there, I start, you know, dinking and doinking around and I'm like, oh my gosh, this is unique and this is going to have a huge impact. And so that's the whole story.

And then I went down the rabbit hole, started experimenting and then I knew, okay, this is going to be, this is going to be huge. And so I went ahead and getting spun up. JoshCavalier.AI that shows up as workshops and webinars. I do a lot of public speaking and just generally trying to navigate the space and help others figure it out.

That's awesome. And you, you just had like that perfect combination of truly transformative technology. You saw that and, and, and at a, a spot in your career where you could just jump in deep. And you're the person I go to because I don't have time to jump in as deep as you do. You're the person I go to when I want to find out what, what's the deep stuff, right? What's happening? So what do you see? And I'M going to, at the risk of dating ourselves, this is all moving so fast, so we should date ourselves. So this is being recorded in early September 2024. So just if, if the world changes next week. It's not that we were wrong, we were right today.

Darn it. What's going on out there? What do you see? Just the quick version, right.

So there is massive amounts of money being thrown at these AI companies. But you know what, I always go back to dot com and the velocity of cash in the marketplace. And what was interesting about that period in time is that the money, the cash was spread out across, across all kinds of different businesses that were Internet based businesses. Everybody was trying to adopt the Internet and the platform within their business. Right now with AI, it seems like all the money and all the cash is going to very specific companies and doing extremely large things with that. Not to say that within our space that we're not seeing certain businesses take on money and do things with AI, but it just shows up very different. That being said, there is so much money that needs to be thrown at this problem because it is a problem. The technology itself has a lot of extreme limitations.

And if you don't have the enough, if you don't have the right resources, it's not going to progress and it's not going to show up well. And so that's what I see right now. I see a lot of energy being used to focus in on these engineering issues, the data issues, the scalability as far as data centers. And there's tons of resources being used right now to scale those efforts up.

And is anybody making a profit yet other than the consultants? Consultants are making a profit?

Yes, they are. You know, I would say that. No, I don't. This is the investment time and everybody knows it. And so we don't know. You know, again, OpenAI is private. We don't know what's, what's cooking there.

But 20 bucks a month doesn't, doesn't generate a profit for them.

Not when, not when you have, you're burning a mil plus or 2 million a day in data center and electricity and overhead. Just massive amounts of overhead. But that being said, there will be a time where the technology is so valuable that people will pay the 20, the 30, the 50, the $100 a month and then some. But we're not at that point yet. Right. We're still an extremely high risk environment. And until that risk is mitigated, we're going to be kind of just like floating out there as an industry. But there will be a time that we have an alignment in regards to what the government is doing with laws.

What's happening from a legal standpoint with copyright, and also the systems from an engineering standpoint will reduce hallucinations or making up information. So again, you have all these various points of risk that are in play. And as we move forward, the risk is being mitigated. And I think, you know, just again, thinking about past technologies, it's really about the assurance from both federal and state governments to protect consumers and protect businesses with the technology. And we are not there yet. We're getting there, but we're not there yet. So it's going to take a little bit more work before we have this acceleration of AI in the marketplace.

And I think, you know, I, I resonate with that a lot. And you and I are old enough to have seen the dawn of home Internet come, right? And, and become now a utility. Like seriously, the, the, the, in my household, at least if the Internet's down, we can live without water for a little while. But the Internet are you kid, right? And I pay more for the Internet than I pay for my water. And I don't even question it. I do like my water. But we're also, you know, along with that wave comes government protections, monopoly protections, and all sorts of regulations that help keep, help attempt to keep us safe as well as just public education around literacy. Right.

How do we use these things? Well, so, okay, what you've just described is an incredible, like seismic shifts in the landscape as individuals, as an industry, and then all of us are serving our organizations, right? What should L and D leaders do and be aware of, be thinking what's, what should be on their radar. And I'm going to ask, you know, just like real tight, like finishing out 2024, heading into 2025, because who knows when everything's going to change again?

Yeah, it's being proactive. And this is probably one of the more difficult times to implement this type of technology because, you know, we have a backdrop of a slow rolling recession. There are obviously tensions around maintaining staff and there is an awareness of, you know, this gradual slowing down now that happened before. So if we go back to the early 90s, that happened with the personal computer, right? There was all of this hype around personal computer, but we had a slow rolling recession. The technology moves forward regardless of what happens with the economy, right? So in the labs or whatever, it's still moves forward. That being said, regardless of your culture and I, and see having a culture of innovation is one of the pillars of being successful with AI. So you may be in an environment where it may not be conducive to have AI. Now, this is where a true leader is going to show up.

Because whether you do it on the down low or you figure out a way that your team, that your group is going to figure this technology out. Because at the end of the day, it's all about human performance and this technology is going to amplify what we currently do as far as our work. So some environments I go into, it's not conducive to use AI. So however you need to do it right, there needs to be AI literacy, there needs to be an understanding of your learning ecosystem and where AI sits within that ecosystem with all of your vendors. And then how are you going to leverage that with your current initiatives going into 2025 and forward. So for some people and some groups, it's really easy. It just shows up and they can, they can see the lay of the land and they know where they're going to head. For others, it's more of a challenge.

And so I would say for those leaders, you're going to need to find a way, however that show, however that is, you will need to find a way for your team to get up to speed on this technology because it is only going to accelerate as we move forward.

Yeah, yeah. And I found this isn't something to delegate and assume. Right. So, and I'm not saying L and D leaders need to have their hands in the Python and that's the computer code, but, you know, like, they don't have to have their hands in super deep and doing it on a regular basis, but to, to have that literacy and awareness. Because this is like no other technology we have, correct?

Yeah. And so this is, this is the odd thing about it because, you know, again, we look back to prior technologies, it was kind of easy to figure out, hey, with the Internet or with a mobile phone, if we had faster processors, if we have faster connections, we can do X With AI, it's wild because you have on the one hand groups that are not even using AI yet, but then you also have certain groups that have figured out how to create a thousand agents and do the work of a thousand people at scale. And that's happening now. I mean, it's not happening, you know, everywhere. And so you have this wild dichotomy out there right now to where for individuals or for groups that are not gravitating towards AI, there's going to be a massive Separation in the marketplace for groups that are using it and are understanding how to leverage the technology versus those that are not.

And I think that really gets to your advice for leaders, right? However it is you do it, you've got to figure it out. Like, you've got to start. Yeah, yeah. And it's interesting. I've been watching and I see I bucket things into. Right. First we go faster and then we go better and then we go different and then we go revolutionary, right? We don't know what revolutionary is. We don't even really have a great sense for different because most of the use cases around AI, even the best ones are still in that faster, better, right? So you're.

You're thousand bots doing the work of a thousand people. It's the same work. It's just diff. Right. That's faster and maybe better. So. So you put me onto a book, the Skill Code, by Matt Bean, and I've just started. I haven't gotten far enough.

And honestly, it's. It's been a long time, Josh, since I have read a book that makes me want to stop working, like get done with my work day so I can go home and read this, right? And it's talking about the dangers of AI and it's not a doom and gloom, right? It's the. But it's the power of AI. How about that? But in generational terms in a way in which I had not really thought about beforehand, right? It's fantastic and magical to have a fully, like a compliant and by that I mean pliant, like an eager to please a 24 7, a tireless, doesn't mind if I'm in a crabby mood, assistant in my computer to help me with anything I want. And the. The challenge there being I'm not teaching anybody else to be that next expert of the future.

So that's correct.

Talk to me about what you pulled from this book because it's.

Right.

Changing.

It's. Yeah, it got me same. Because, you know, we've been in this game a long time and we understand the human connection that occurs within organizations that have their act together, so to speak. And that connection is really the novice expert connection and how information, how skills, how knowledge, even behaviors are transferred from the experts to the novice. Fast forward. Here we are with AI and the initial research around the implementation of AI with both an expert and a novice shows up in such a way that an expert, they can now have superpowers, they can go ahead and they understand their craft so well, they rock it forward for the novice, they can make exponential leaps forward. But there lies the problem. So now we have this technology where the expert and the novice can begin to work with AI and the human bond is being broken.

And that is the crux of Matt Bean's work, is what do we need to do from a human performance standpoint that allows AI to augment what we are doing to partner with AI, but then flip the script and build in tighter connections between the expert and the novice. Human wise. Right. And so you know, anyone that's listening to this podcast, please be mindful of the fact that if you implement AI and you put your foot on the gas pedal and you begin to add in agents and assistants and you're moving a role forward, you could be eroding the foundation of that role over time. So in the short term, everything looks great, productivity is up, but in five years and in 10 years, you begin to erode the connection between the expert and the novice. And that is the. That is the warning in the skill code. But again, as you mentioned, it's not all doom and gloom.

This is our as an L and D profession. This is our opportunity to figure this out.

This is what we do. Right? And it's funny because at one point, right, this is terrifying. And not in the robots are taking my jobs kind of way terrifying or the Terminator kind of terrifying, but in at the same time, we've been talking to client organizations for over a decade as they're concerned about their experts retiring. What happens when our experts retire? And we're going to have even bigger gaps now when experts retire. So this is fascinating stuff and thank you. You're the reason why I can't sleep at night. Josh Cavaliere, thank you. You and Matt Bean.

So there are plenty of conversations. Maybe I should have you back and we can do this again now that we've got everybody. And we'll put a link to the book in the notes here. I would like to borrow from Adam Grant, the Lightning Round, Adam Grant and just about every other podcaster on the planet, but let's do Lightning Round and close this out. So first off, what's a book that you're not reading but you wish you were?

So I have it right here. It's in my list and it's Ray Kurzweil, the Singular Singularity is nearer. And this has been around for a bit. You know, again, it's one of these thought leaders, somebody who's been in the space forever, who hasn't has an impression as far as where Things are headed. And that seems to be where my thoughts are right now, is trying to round out the conversation and not get into an echo chamber. Because again, as a technologist, you can get into a pattern of listening to all the positive things. Right. Especially when it's vendors and everybody's trying to move things forward, which is great, but we need perspective and the singularity is nearer.

Will, once I get into the book, I believe will help me give, give me even more perspective, more in a societal way. But again, I need that as a professional. I need that rounding out about what's happening with AI okay, awesome.

Love it. Get our heads up above our own little fray and look out there. Okay, switching gears. What's a hobby you picked up during.

COVID What is the hobby I picked up during COVID Barbecue. So it is borderline obsession for me. I think it about, I think about it quite frequently and I would be a liar if I told you that I didn't have a current barbecue project going on at the house right now or, you know, there's always something going on with, with smoking, food and barbecue. So, yeah, it's a lot.

Smells great.

Yeah.

What's a question about artificial intelligence that your mom asks you?

We got to, we got to back up a little bit because my aunt, my mom for my whole career asked me, so what do you do? Like in general. Right. It always changes. I don't think my mom really has had any questions about AI I think, you know, like my brother in law or other family members have had questions about it. But no, she hasn't had, she hasn't had too many, too many questions. As long as she sees me busy and having fun with what I do, she's, you know, that checks her box.

Your mom's the best.

Yeah.

Okay, so before we got rolling today, we were talking about birthdays. What's an ideal birthday gift for you?

So an ideal. It's not a thing. The ideal birthday gift for me is an experience because, I mean, at this point in my life I have things, but you can always have experiences. And so shockingly, one of the good gifts I got, great gifts I got for my birthday, it was a barbecue experience. So that's, I'm going to experience that in the fall.

That's awesome. That's awesome. Okay. Do you have a question you have for me?

Yes. So you get to interface with a whole bunch of different customers. Where do you see artificial intelligence as far as adoption with your customers?

You know, one of the things that's interesting as I talk to folks I mentioned that actually Trish Uhl is doing this at Edward Jones, right? Putting the L and D organization out front, saying, hi, raising the hand, saying, we want to try this. We want to be the first. And there's a few reasons that she says for this. And. And one is because L and D, we know how to do this. We learn new things. We interface with subject matter experts. We make it easy for other people to understand.

We know how to run campaigns, we know how to iterate and eval. Like, this is what we. We do. Right? I'm getting all hot and bothered here. And so, yes, we are a fantastic catalyst for something like this within an organization. And at the same time, most L and D people don't touch the secret stuff that their organization has. We're one layer removed, so we're a little bit safer. So it's so interesting when I mentioned this to other clients, other clients as a strategy, they're like, wait a minute, there's a place for me, right? So this becomes.

Remember, back during COVID I said, look, we are. We're not the first responders, but we are among the early responders, right? For our organizations. How do we rapidly change things? This is what we do. And we get a second moment for this in a lot more positive way than we did during COVID We have a second opportunity to really, really drive value, and that's why we're in this job. So I'm like, this is a fantastic time to be alive.

Yes, it is. It so is. You know, and it's funny, too, because there's so many different facets and the way that L and D can make an impact in anyone's organization with AI. And you can look at it from just the job aspect in that the way that roles are shifting and changing. They are with AI as a technology, they are inherently creating knowledge and skill gaps right there. Right. And then you compound that with what we talked about in the skill code with the break of the expert novice connection. This is L&D's time.

I cannot think of other than, like, implementing desktop computers. Right. I cannot think of any other time that learning and development is front and center, at least should be front and center and running point on the way that AI should or could show up for an organization.

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. All right, let's call it a wrap there. Josh Cavalier, thank you so much for spending time with me today and letting me share this conversation with everybody else.

Thanks, Megan.

So how'd that go, Megan?

Oh, my gosh. Josh Cavalier. Is the absolute best. And I've known Josh for years, pre generative AI, pre pandemic, and it's so cool to see how he and his business and his thinking have evolved and meet L and D teams exactly where we need him to be to support us. He is so generous with his insights, so generous with what he knows. He just wants us all to be successful. So that really resonated here in this conversation, and I appreciate that so much.

This is Meg Fairchild and Megan Torrance and this has been a podcast from Torrance Learning.

Tangents is the official podcast of Torrance Learning, as though we have an unofficial one. Tangents is hosted by Meg Fairchild and Megan Torrance. It's produced by Dean Casteel and Meg Fairchild, engineered and edited by Dean Casteel with original music also by Dean Castile. This episode was fact checked by Meg Fairchild.