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Nick Mott: This series was supported by

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Nick Mott: the Pulitzer Center.

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Amy Martin: Welcome to Thresholdv I'm Amy

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Amy Martin: Martin, and we're in the middle

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Amy Martin: of the fourth episode in our

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Amy Martin: series about the Arctic

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Amy Martin: National Wildlife Refuge.

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Amy Martin: We're focusing on Gwich'in

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Amy Martin: Voices this time.

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Amy Martin: There's strong opposition to

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Amy Martin: drilling in the refuge among

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Amy Martin: the Gwich'in, and the primary

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Amy Martin: reason for that is their

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Amy Martin: relationship with one of the

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Amy Martin: keystone species of the Arctic,

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Amy Martin: the caribou.

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Amy Martin: I wanted to give you a sense of

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Amy Martin: what these animals are like.

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Amy Martin: So here's a little bit of tape

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Amy Martin: from my closest encounter with

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Amy Martin: caribou...

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Amy Martin: I'm coming up to the gate.

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Amy Martin: Except they're not actually

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Amy Martin: caribou.

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Amy Martin: They're reindeer.

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Amy Martin: It's the same species, just

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Amy Martin: different subspecies.

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Amy Martin: I'm standing

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Amy Martin: in a herd of reindeer.

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Amy Martin: If you listened to season two

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Amy Martin: of our show, you might remember

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Amy Martin: Reiulf and Risten

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Amy Martin: Aleksandersen, a Sami family

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Amy Martin: in northern Norway.

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Amy Martin: This is the moment when I met

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Amy Martin: their reindeer herd.

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Amy Martin: A few of the animals are

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Amy Martin: wearing bells around their

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Amy Martin: necks.

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Amy Martin: They're running past me,

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Amy Martin: milling around.

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Amy Martin: Reindeer and caribou are tall,

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Amy Martin: shaggy creatures that are in

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Amy Martin: the same family as deer and

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Amy Martin: elk.

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Amy Martin: Both the males and females grow

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Amy Martin: big branched antlers, and

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Amy Martin: they're incredibly well adapted

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Amy Martin: to life in the far north.

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Amy Martin: They can smell the lichen that

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Amy Martin: sustains them through the cold,

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Amy Martin: dark months of winter, even

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Amy Martin: when it's buried under many

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Amy Martin: feet of snow.

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Amy Martin: And they know how to dig down

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Amy Martin: through the drifts to find it.

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Amy Martin: They also grow two thick layers

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Amy Martin: of hair to help them stay warm.

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Amy Martin: They're so beautiful.

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Amy Martin: They're brown and gray,

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Amy Martin: white and tan and cream

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Amy Martin: and ivory.

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Amy Martin: The herd was swirling around

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Amy Martin: me in a big circle.

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Amy Martin: It felt like being in the eye

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Amy Martin: of a reindeer hurricane.

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Amy Martin: This is one of their defense

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Amy Martin: mechanisms.

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Amy Martin: Kind of like how fish make

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Amy Martin: whirlpools when a shark

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Amy Martin: approaches.

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Amy Martin: Although clearly, I was no

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Amy Martin: shark. They didn't seem scared

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Amy Martin: of me at all.

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Amy Martin: Just curious and kind of

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Amy Martin: wound up by my presence.

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Amy Martin: Reindeer and caribou are found

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Amy Martin: across the circumpolar North,

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Amy Martin: the Sami, the Nenets, the

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Amy Martin: Gwich'in, the Inuit

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Amy Martin: and other indigenous Arctic

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Amy Martin: cultures all have long

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Amy Martin: relationships with them.

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Amy Martin: Reindeer are usually

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Amy Martin: semi-domesticated, like this

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Amy Martin: herd I was in.

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Amy Martin: Sami families own their

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Amy Martin: reindeer. They don't farm them

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Amy Martin: the way people farm cows or

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Amy Martin: pigs.

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Amy Martin: But they do exert some control

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Amy Martin: over where the herds go and

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Amy Martin: when.

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Amy Martin: That's not how it is with the

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Amy Martin: Gwich'in.

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Amy Martin: The caribou in northern Alaska

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Amy Martin: and Canada are completely

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Amy Martin: wild.

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Amy Martin: They go wherever they want,

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Amy Martin: whenever they want.

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Amy Martin: And the Gwich'in don't herd

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Amy Martin: them, they hunt them

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Amy Martin: and they learn from

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Amy Martin: them.

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Dana Tizya-Tramm: Well, I think a good place to

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Dana Tizya-Tramm: start would be with our

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Dana Tizya-Tramm: oral history.

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Amy Martin: This is Dana Tizya-Tramm.

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Dana Tizya-Tramm: We speak of following

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Dana Tizya-Tramm: the Porcupine caribou herd to

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Dana Tizya-Tramm: their calving grounds in the

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Dana Tizya-Tramm: northeast coastal plain of

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Dana Tizya-Tramm: Alaska.

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Dana Tizya-Tramm: And it is said that our

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Dana Tizya-Tramm: people follow them to learn

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Dana Tizya-Tramm: their behaviors.

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Dana Tizya-Tramm: And as we observed them,

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Dana Tizya-Tramm: we identified this

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Dana Tizya-Tramm: area as sacred, as we recognize

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Dana Tizya-Tramm: it to be, the wellspring that

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Dana Tizya-Tramm: drives ecosystems.

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Amy Martin: Dana is the chief of the Vuntut

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Amy Martin: Gwich'in First Nation of

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Amy Martin: the Yukon in Canada.

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Amy Martin: He's talking to me over the

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Amy Martin: phone from his office in the

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Amy Martin: village of Old Crow, which is

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Amy Martin: north of the Arctic Circle

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Amy Martin: and very close to the border

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Amy Martin: with Alaska.

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Amy Martin: Dana was born in 1987,

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Amy Martin: the year before that pivotal

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Amy Martin: Gwich'in gathering.

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Amy Martin: And he sees himself as carrying

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Amy Martin: out the core instruction

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Amy Martin: that came out of that event:

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Amy Martin: protect the caribou.

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Dana Tizya-Tramm: So the story goes, is that it

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Dana Tizya-Tramm: is this place, the Arctic

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Dana Tizya-Tramm: National Wildlife Refuge, or

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Dana Tizya-Tramm: as we call it, lizhik gwats'an gwandaii goodlit,

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Dana Tizya-Tramm: the sacred place where life

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Dana Tizya-Tramm: begins.

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Dana Tizya-Tramm: And it is here that we traded

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Dana Tizya-Tramm: half of our heart with half

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Dana Tizya-Tramm: of the caribou's heart.

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Dana Tizya-Tramm: So in this way that we would

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Dana Tizya-Tramm: always be intrinsically tied

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Dana Tizya-Tramm: with one another to care

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Dana Tizya-Tramm: for one another and to know

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Dana Tizya-Tramm: where each other are.

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Dana Tizya-Tramm: This is so fundamental

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Dana Tizya-Tramm: to who we are.

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Amy Martin: Many different Gwich'in people

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Amy Martin: I spoke with referred to this

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Amy Martin: story of sharing a heart with

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Amy Martin: a caribou.

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Amy Martin: It has different versions, I

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Amy Martin: think, but they're all an

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Amy Martin: expression of unity with this

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Amy Martin: animal.

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Amy Martin: Mutual support and

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Amy Martin: a shared fate.

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Amy Martin: Dana says this very

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Amy Martin: old story is borne

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Amy Martin: out by modern science.

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Amy Martin: Caribou have evolved to be able

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Amy Martin: to digest the relatively

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Amy Martin: few plants that can survive in

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Amy Martin: the harsh Arctic environment.

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Amy Martin: Their bodies are able to draw

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Amy Martin: nutrition out of lichen

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Amy Martin: and tough cotton grass.

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Dana Tizya-Tramm: And the caribou carry these

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Dana Tizya-Tramm: nutrients like a great

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Dana Tizya-Tramm: ebb and flow from a heartbeat

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Dana Tizya-Tramm: across our nation,

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Dana Tizya-Tramm: giving life to the

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Dana Tizya-Tramm: people and to the animals of

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Dana Tizya-Tramm: this area.

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Dana Tizya-Tramm: And they've been doing it for

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Dana Tizya-Tramm: 2.1 million years, far

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Dana Tizya-Tramm: more efficiently than anything

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Dana Tizya-Tramm: that man has done.

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Amy Martin: But over the last 20 of those

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Amy Martin: years, caribou herds across

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Amy Martin: the polar north have faced

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Amy Martin: precipitous declines.

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Amy Martin: They've gone from nearly 5

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Amy Martin: million animals to just over

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Amy Martin: 2 million in 2 decades.

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Amy Martin: Many herds in Alaska and Canada

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Amy Martin: are at all time low numbers

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Amy Martin: since record keeping began.

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Amy Martin: And one of the primary reasons

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Amy Martin: for that is climate change.

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Amy Martin: According to the 2018 Arctic

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Amy Martin: Report card, put out by the

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Amy Martin: National Oceanic and

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Amy Martin: Atmospheric Administration.

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Dana Tizya-Tramm: And especially in a time

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Dana Tizya-Tramm: when their lands are greatly

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Dana Tizya-Tramm: changing, we need

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Dana Tizya-Tramm: large areas of lands

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Dana Tizya-Tramm: to help all of our animals

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Dana Tizya-Tramm: survive.

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Amy Martin: For Dana and many other

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Amy Martin: Gwich'in people, there's really

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Amy Martin: no distinction between helping

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Amy Martin: the animals survive and keeping

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Amy Martin: their culture alive.

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Amy Martin: They're completely interlinked,

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Amy Martin: going way, way back

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Amy Martin: to when the first people

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Amy Martin: migrated into North America

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Amy Martin: from Asia over the Bering Land

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Amy Martin: Bridge at the end of the last

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Amy Martin: Ice Age.

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Amy Martin: In fact, there's growing

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Amy Martin: consensus that the earliest

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Amy Martin: evidence of human habitation on

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Amy Martin: the continent is in Gwich'in

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Amy Martin: territory close to where Dana

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Amy Martin: lives in the Yukon.

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Dana Tizya-Tramm: There's actually an

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Dana Tizya-Tramm: archeological site

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Dana Tizya-Tramm: just downriver from our

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Dana Tizya-Tramm: community that implies

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Dana Tizya-Tramm: evidence of our existence

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Dana Tizya-Tramm: to about 24,000,

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Dana Tizya-Tramm: 27,000 years ago.

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Amy Martin: It's a place called Bluefish

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Amy Martin: Caves.

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Amy Martin: It's named for the Bluefish

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Amy Martin: River, which flows into the

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Amy Martin: Porcupine River.

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Amy Martin: And like Dana said,

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Amy Martin: archeologists have found

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Amy Martin: implications of human presence

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Amy Martin: in these caves dating back

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Amy Martin: at least 24,000

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Amy Martin: years.

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Amy Martin: One of the animals those people

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Amy Martin: were almost certainly relying

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Amy Martin: on to survive was the caribou.

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Dana Tizya-Tramm: So from these ancient

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Dana Tizya-Tramm: beginnings, we have lived

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Dana Tizya-Tramm: with our brother vadzaih,

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Dana Tizya-Tramm: caribou, and they

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Dana Tizya-Tramm: have taught us many of the

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Dana Tizya-Tramm: access points, navigations

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Dana Tizya-Tramm: of lands, but also

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Dana Tizya-Tramm: the carrier of our cultures,

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Dana Tizya-Tramm: our dances, even our

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Dana Tizya-Tramm: drum songs.

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Dana Tizya-Tramm: So even today,

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Dana Tizya-Tramm: though, the six year olds in

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Dana Tizya-Tramm: my community, when they draw

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Dana Tizya-Tramm: pictures at school with their

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Dana Tizya-Tramm: crayons, they're drawing

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Dana Tizya-Tramm: pictures of their caribou

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Dana Tizya-Tramm: camps, of working

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Dana Tizya-Tramm: with caribou.

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Amy Martin: Listening to Dana was just

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Amy Martin: another reminder for me of

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Amy Martin: how much time we used to spend

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Amy Martin: as a species watching

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Amy Martin: and learning from animals

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Amy Martin: and how much that

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Amy Martin: observation involved moving

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Amy Martin: with them through the world.

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Amy Martin: But today, humans aren't

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Amy Martin: as free to migrate in response

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Amy Martin: to climate or season or

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Amy Martin: relationships with animals.

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Amy Martin: Our migration patterns are

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Amy Martin: decided by our governments.

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Amy Martin: The Porcupine caribou migrate

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Amy Martin: back and forth across

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Amy Martin: the U.S.-Canada border.

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Amy Martin: But the Gwich'in cannot.

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Amy Martin: And when they want to advocate

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Amy Martin: for that herd, they have to

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Amy Martin: appeal to two different

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Amy Martin: governments.

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Dana Tizya-Tramm: So this is a very compounding

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Dana Tizya-Tramm: issue for a

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Dana Tizya-Tramm: Canadian indigenous people

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Dana Tizya-Tramm: as we work very

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Dana Tizya-Tramm: hard to continue

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Dana Tizya-Tramm: our way of life

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Dana Tizya-Tramm: in a modern era.

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Amy Martin: It's hard enough for rural

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Amy Martin: Alaskans to get heard in

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Amy Martin: Washington.

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Amy Martin: The challenges are ten times

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Amy Martin: greater for the Gwich'in people

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Amy Martin: who hold Canadian passports.

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Amy Martin: And one of the arguments that

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Amy Martin: gets repeated in the halls of

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Amy Martin: government is that the Gwich'in

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Amy Martin: are blowing this whole thing

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Amy Martin: out of proportion, that oil

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Amy Martin: development really isn't a

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Amy Martin: threat to them or the caribou.

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Amy Martin: As evidence for this, people

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Amy Martin: who support drilling point to

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Amy Martin: the central Arctic herd.

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Amy Martin: They're sort of like neighbors

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Amy Martin: to the Porcupine herd, and

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Amy Martin: they historically used the

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Amy Martin: Prudhoe Bay area as a calving

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Amy Martin: ground.

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Amy Martin: Almost everyone I spoke with on

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Amy Martin: the oil side told

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Amy Martin: me that the population of this

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Amy Martin: herd has gone up in the years

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Amy Martin: since drilling began at

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Amy Martin: Prudhoe, and that this means

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Amy Martin: the Porcupine herd could be

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Amy Martin: just fine as well, if

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Amy Martin: the coastal plain of the refuge

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Amy Martin: gets developed. I

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Amy Martin: wanted to make sure I really

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Amy Martin: understood this claim and the

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Amy Martin: responses to it, so

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Amy Martin: producer Nick Matt and I dug

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Amy Martin: deep into the data, and here's

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Amy Martin: what we learned.

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Amy Martin: First, some numbers.

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Amy Martin: The population of the central

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Amy Martin: Arctic herd was around 5000

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Amy Martin: animals when development at

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Amy Martin: Prudhoe Bay began, most sources

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Amy Martin: say.

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Amy Martin: That's compared to more than

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Amy Martin: 20,000 animals the last

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Amy Martin: time they were counted in 2016.

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Amy Martin: But just a few years before

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Amy Martin: that, in 2013,

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Amy Martin: the herd was up to more than

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Amy Martin: 70,000 animals.

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Amy Martin: And that leads us to an

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Amy Martin: important point here.

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Amy Martin: The size of a caribou herd

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Amy Martin: can vary wildly over even

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Amy Martin: just a few years, and

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Amy Martin: the factors influencing

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Amy Martin: population size are complex.

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Amy Martin: Predators, food availability,

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Amy Martin: disease, weather, and climate

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Amy Martin: can all play a role, in

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Amy Martin: addition to human impacts and

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Amy Martin: other things. Caribou

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Amy Martin: use different strategies to

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Amy Martin: respond to the various

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Amy Martin: pressures they face in the

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Amy Martin: wild, and one of their most

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Amy Martin: effective tools is movement.

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Amy Martin: That's what happened with the

Speaker: 00:09:55

Amy Martin: central Arctic herd.

Speaker: 00:09:56

Amy Martin: As development grew at Prudhoe

Speaker: 00:09:58

Amy Martin: Bay, they shifted their calving

Speaker: 00:10:00

Amy Martin: grounds to other areas, and

Speaker: 00:10:01

Amy Martin: it appears that they found

Speaker: 00:10:03

Amy Martin: places where they could get

Speaker: 00:10:04

Amy Martin: enough to eat and where they

Speaker: 00:10:05

Amy Martin: had enough freedom from

Speaker: 00:10:06

Amy Martin: predators to keep their herd

Speaker: 00:10:08

Amy Martin: going.

Speaker: 00:10:09

Amy Martin: But the landscape is very

Speaker: 00:10:10

Amy Martin: different for the Porcupine

Speaker: 00:10:11

Amy Martin: herd.

Speaker: 00:10:12

Amy Martin: If they want to get away from

Speaker: 00:10:13

Amy Martin: development on the coastal

Speaker: 00:10:14

Amy Martin: plain, they don't have very

Speaker: 00:10:16

Amy Martin: many good options where they

Speaker: 00:10:17

Amy Martin: can find enough to eat and

Speaker: 00:10:19

Amy Martin: where they won't easily be

Speaker: 00:10:20

Amy Martin: eaten by something else.

Speaker: 00:10:22

Amy Martin: And that's why we have to use

Speaker: 00:10:23

Amy Martin: great caution in comparing

Speaker: 00:10:25

Amy Martin: these two herds.

Speaker: 00:10:26

Amy Martin: That's actually the word

Speaker: 00:10:28

Amy Martin: scientists use in the

Speaker: 00:10:29

Amy Martin: environmental impact statement

Speaker: 00:10:31

Amy Martin: created by the government.

Speaker: 00:10:32

Amy Martin: Caution.

Speaker: 00:10:34

Amy Martin: They give a whole list of

Speaker: 00:10:35

Amy Martin: reasons for why we can't

Speaker: 00:10:36

Amy Martin: use the central Arctic herd's

Speaker: 00:10:38

Amy Martin: response to oil development

Speaker: 00:10:39

Amy Martin: as a clear analog for how

Speaker: 00:10:41

Amy Martin: Porcupine Herd might be

Speaker: 00:10:42

Amy Martin: impacted.

Speaker: 00:10:43

Amy Martin: It's kind of like with people,

Speaker: 00:10:45

Amy Martin: you can't do a study on the

Speaker: 00:10:46

Amy Martin: people of Vancouver say,

Speaker: 00:10:48

Amy Martin: and assume that it will apply

Speaker: 00:10:50

Amy Martin: to Seattle, too.

Speaker: 00:10:51

Amy Martin: There are similarities between

Speaker: 00:10:53

Amy Martin: the two cities, but there are

Speaker: 00:10:54

Amy Martin: important differences as well.

Speaker: 00:10:56

Amy Martin: There's a whole lot more we

Speaker: 00:10:57

Amy Martin: could say about all the

Speaker: 00:10:59

Amy Martin: complexities in the science

Speaker: 00:11:00

Amy Martin: here. But if we zoom out and

Speaker: 00:11:02

Amy Martin: just look at the big picture,

Speaker: 00:11:03

Amy Martin: two fundamental facts leap

Speaker: 00:11:05

Amy Martin: out.

Speaker: 00:11:06

Amy Martin: Caribou prefer habitat

Speaker: 00:11:08

Amy Martin: with no human disturbance,

Speaker: 00:11:09

Amy Martin: and....

Speaker: 00:11:10

Dana Tizya-Tramm: Every single

Speaker: 00:11:12

Dana Tizya-Tramm: herd of caribou in

Speaker: 00:11:14

Dana Tizya-Tramm: Canada is in major decline.

Speaker: 00:11:17

Amy Martin: Dana is right about that.

Speaker: 00:11:19

Amy Martin: And although the causes for

Speaker: 00:11:20

Amy Martin: those declines vary, there's

Speaker: 00:11:22

Amy Martin: one species behind them all:

Speaker: 00:11:24

Amy Martin: us.

Speaker: 00:11:25

Amy Martin: Caribou herds thrive in big,

Speaker: 00:11:27

Amy Martin: wild, cold landscapes.

Speaker: 00:11:30

Amy Martin: And as we log and mine and

Speaker: 00:11:31

Amy Martin: drill and build roads further

Speaker: 00:11:33

Amy Martin: and further north and

Speaker: 00:11:35

Amy Martin: warm the climate, their

Speaker: 00:11:37

Amy Martin: overall population is going

Speaker: 00:11:38

Amy Martin: down.

Speaker: 00:11:39

Amy Martin: That is undoubtedly

Speaker: 00:11:41

Amy Martin: the long-term trend here.

Speaker: 00:11:42

Amy Martin: And for Dana, that's why it's

Speaker: 00:11:44

Amy Martin: essential to leave the places

Speaker: 00:11:46

Amy Martin: they have left undisturbed.

Speaker: 00:11:48

Amy Martin: Places like the coastal plain

Speaker: 00:11:50

Amy Martin: of the refuge.

Speaker: 00:11:51

Dana Tizya-Tramm: In a time of anthropogenic

Speaker: 00:11:53

Dana Tizya-Tramm: climate change, when

Speaker: 00:11:55

Dana Tizya-Tramm: is it going to be enough?

Speaker: 00:11:57

Dana Tizya-Tramm: And when are we going to start

Speaker: 00:11:59

Dana Tizya-Tramm: appreciating the natural

Speaker: 00:12:01

Dana Tizya-Tramm: systems and the animals?

Speaker: 00:12:03

Dana Tizya-Tramm: Just because nature does

Speaker: 00:12:05

Dana Tizya-Tramm: not speak English does not

Speaker: 00:12:06

Dana Tizya-Tramm: mean that it's not speaking.

Speaker: 00:12:09

Dana Tizya-Tramm: And we strongly

Speaker: 00:12:10

Dana Tizya-Tramm: hope that the world

Speaker: 00:12:12

Dana Tizya-Tramm: sees this

Speaker: 00:12:14

Dana Tizya-Tramm: issue as a mirror and

Speaker: 00:12:16

Dana Tizya-Tramm: ourselves reflected in

Speaker: 00:12:18

Dana Tizya-Tramm: it. And it's talking

Speaker: 00:12:19

Dana Tizya-Tramm: to us about the imbalanced

Speaker: 00:12:22

Dana Tizya-Tramm: approach that we're taking

Speaker: 00:12:23

Dana Tizya-Tramm: to a balanced system.

Speaker: 00:12:28

Amy Martin: I asked Dana how it felt to

Speaker: 00:12:29

Amy Martin: be on the Canadian side of the

Speaker: 00:12:31

Amy Martin: border in December 2017,

Speaker: 00:12:33

Amy Martin: when the bill passed that

Speaker: 00:12:34

Amy Martin: opened up the refuge to oil and

Speaker: 00:12:36

Amy Martin: gas development.

Speaker: 00:12:38

Dana Tizya-Tramm: I remember that day very

Speaker: 00:12:39

Dana Tizya-Tramm: clearly.

Speaker: 00:12:40

Dana Tizya-Tramm: After a long day in the office,

Speaker: 00:12:42

Dana Tizya-Tramm: I went home and I watched

Speaker: 00:12:45

Dana Tizya-Tramm: the video of

Speaker: 00:12:46

Dana Tizya-Tramm: Donald Trump signing

Speaker: 00:12:48

Dana Tizya-Tramm: the bill and

Speaker: 00:12:50

Dana Tizya-Tramm: as he put his signature

Speaker: 00:12:52

Dana Tizya-Tramm: to it and he specifically

Speaker: 00:12:54

Dana Tizya-Tramm: mentioned opening up the

Speaker: 00:12:56

Dana Tizya-Tramm: Arctic National Wildlife

Speaker: 00:12:57

Dana Tizya-Tramm: Refuge, I could see

Speaker: 00:12:59

Dana Tizya-Tramm: my elders, I

Speaker: 00:13:01

Dana Tizya-Tramm: could see my ancestors,

Speaker: 00:13:03

Dana Tizya-Tramm: and I could hear the voices

Speaker: 00:13:05

Dana Tizya-Tramm: of the youth because

Speaker: 00:13:07

Dana Tizya-Tramm: they are everything.

Speaker: 00:13:10

Dana Tizya-Tramm: It, it quite literally broke

Speaker: 00:13:11

Dana Tizya-Tramm: my heart.

Speaker: 00:13:12

Dana Tizya-Tramm: And I mourned

Speaker: 00:13:14

Dana Tizya-Tramm: for our,

Speaker: 00:13:17

Dana Tizya-Tramm: our way of life.

Speaker: 00:13:18

Dana Tizya-Tramm: And I wondered when will my

Speaker: 00:13:20

Dana Tizya-Tramm: people be seen as

Speaker: 00:13:22

Dana Tizya-Tramm: a people and when

Speaker: 00:13:24

Dana Tizya-Tramm: will our voice and perspective

Speaker: 00:13:26

Dana Tizya-Tramm: be respected?

Speaker: 00:13:30

Dana Tizya-Tramm: But I went

Speaker: 00:13:32

Dana Tizya-Tramm: through my short time of

Speaker: 00:13:33

Dana Tizya-Tramm: mourning, which was probably a

Speaker: 00:13:34

Dana Tizya-Tramm: couple of days, and began

Speaker: 00:13:36

Dana Tizya-Tramm: picking myself up.

Speaker: 00:13:39

Dana Tizya-Tramm: And nothing

Speaker: 00:13:40

Dana Tizya-Tramm: gives me more power

Speaker: 00:13:42

Dana Tizya-Tramm: than my community coming

Speaker: 00:13:43

Dana Tizya-Tramm: together towards

Speaker: 00:13:46

Dana Tizya-Tramm: the positives

Speaker: 00:13:47

Dana Tizya-Tramm: of these issues.

Speaker: 00:13:53

Dana Tizya-Tramm: I'm very fortunate to have the

Speaker: 00:13:55

Dana Tizya-Tramm: guidance of our elders

Speaker: 00:13:57

Dana Tizya-Tramm: and along with the mandate

Speaker: 00:13:59

Dana Tizya-Tramm: of the advocacy and education

Speaker: 00:14:01

Dana Tizya-Tramm: of protection of these lands.

Speaker: 00:14:03

Dana Tizya-Tramm: It was also said in the next

Speaker: 00:14:05

Dana Tizya-Tramm: breath that this must be done

Speaker: 00:14:06

Dana Tizya-Tramm: in a good way.

Speaker: 00:14:08

Dana Tizya-Tramm: And even if others choose

Speaker: 00:14:11

Dana Tizya-Tramm: to be disrespectful,

Speaker: 00:14:13

Dana Tizya-Tramm: the Gwich'in nation will not

Speaker: 00:14:14

Dana Tizya-Tramm: be.

Speaker: 00:14:18

Amy Martin: We'll have more after

Speaker: 00:14:20

Amy Martin: this short break.

Speaker: 00:14:34

Speaker: Hi Threshold listeners, do

Speaker: 00:14:36

Speaker: you ever find yourself

Speaker: 00:14:37

Speaker: wondering what businesses are

Speaker: 00:14:38

Speaker: doing and what more they should

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Speaker: do to confront climate change?

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Speaker: Then you should check out

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Speaker: Climate Rising,

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Matt Herlihy: Hi, my name's Matt Herlihy and

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Matt Herlihy: I've been a Threshold listener

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Speaker: 00:15:50

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Speaker: 00:17:06

Dallas Taylor: I'm Dallas Taylor, host of

Speaker: 00:17:07

Dallas Taylor: 20,000Hz,

Speaker: 00:17:09

Dallas Taylor: a podcast that reveals the

Speaker: 00:17:11

Dallas Taylor: untold stories behind the

Speaker: 00:17:12

Dallas Taylor: sounds of our world.

Speaker: 00:17:14

Dallas Taylor: We've uncovered the incredible

Speaker: 00:17:15

Dallas Taylor: intelligence of talking

Speaker: 00:17:16

Dallas Taylor: parrots.

Speaker: 00:17:17

Speaker 4: Basically, birdbrain

Speaker: 00:17:19

Speaker 4: was a pejorative term.

Speaker: 00:17:21

Speaker 4: And here I had this bird

Speaker: 00:17:23

Speaker 4: that was doing the same types

Speaker: 00:17:24

Speaker 4: of tasks as the primates.

Speaker: 00:17:26

Dallas Taylor: We've investigated the bonding

Speaker: 00:17:28

Dallas Taylor: power of music.

Speaker: 00:17:29

Speaker 5: There's an intimacy there in

Speaker: 00:17:31

Speaker 5: communicating through

Speaker: 00:17:32

Speaker 5: the medium of music

Speaker: 00:17:34

Speaker 5: that can be really a

Speaker: 00:17:36

Speaker 5: powerful force for bringing

Speaker: 00:17:37

Speaker 5: people together.

Speaker: 00:17:38

Dallas Taylor: We've explored the subtle

Speaker: 00:17:39

Dallas Taylor: nuances of the human voice.

Speaker: 00:17:41

Speaker 6: We have to remember that humans

Speaker: 00:17:43

Speaker 6: over many hundreds of thousands

Speaker: 00:17:45

Speaker 6: of years of evolution have

Speaker: 00:17:46

Speaker 6: become extremely attuned

Speaker: 00:17:48

Speaker 6: to the sounds of each other's

Speaker: 00:17:49

Speaker 6: voices.

Speaker: 00:17:50

Dallas Taylor: And we've revealed why a famous

Speaker: 00:17:51

Dallas Taylor: composer wrote a piece made

Speaker: 00:17:53

Dallas Taylor: entirely of silence.

Speaker: 00:17:55

Speaker 7: I think that's a really

Speaker: 00:17:56

Speaker 7: potentially quite useful and

Speaker: 00:17:58

Speaker 7: quite profound experience to

Speaker: 00:17:59

Speaker 7: have.

Speaker: 00:18:00

Dallas Taylor: Subscribe to 20,000Hz

Speaker: 00:18:02

Dallas Taylor: right here in your podcast

Speaker: 00:18:03

Dallas Taylor: player.

Speaker: 00:18:04

Dallas Taylor: I'll meet you there.

Speaker: 00:18:10

Amy Martin: Hey, Gideon!

Speaker: 00:18:10

Amy Martin: Welcome

Speaker: 00:18:12

Amy Martin: back to Threshold I'm Amy

Speaker: 00:18:14

Amy Martin: Martin. And I'm back in Arctic

Speaker: 00:18:15

Amy Martin: Village, Alaska, hoping to

Speaker: 00:18:16

Amy Martin: catch up with Gideon James,

Speaker: 00:18:18

Amy Martin: Sarah's brother, before he

Speaker: 00:18:20

Amy Martin: sets off in his canoe to check

Speaker: 00:18:21

Amy Martin: his fishing nets.

Speaker: 00:18:23

Amy Martin: I'd met Gideon

Speaker: 00:18:25

Amy Martin: the day before, and when he

Speaker: 00:18:26

Amy Martin: told me he was going to check

Speaker: 00:18:27

Amy Martin: his nets at some point, I asked

Speaker: 00:18:29

Amy Martin: if I could come along.

Speaker: 00:18:30

Amy Martin: At 9:00 the next night, Sarah

Speaker: 00:18:32

Amy Martin: came to tell me Gideon was

Speaker: 00:18:33

Amy Martin: heading out- this far

Speaker: 00:18:35

Amy Martin: north in the summer, it's late,

Speaker: 00:18:36

Amy Martin: almost all night long.

Speaker: 00:18:38

Amy Martin: So I grabbed my sound gear

Speaker: 00:18:40

Amy Martin: and raced out to find him.

Speaker: 00:18:42

Amy Martin: I may very well have

Speaker: 00:18:44

Amy Martin: literally missed the boat.

Speaker: 00:18:45

Amy Martin: Almost,

Speaker: 00:18:48

Amy Martin: but not quite.

Speaker: 00:18:49

Amy Martin: I managed to catch Gideon just

Speaker: 00:18:50

Amy Martin: as he was about to put the

Speaker: 00:18:51

Amy Martin: canoe into the water.

Speaker: 00:18:54

Gideon James: Hey there.

Speaker: 00:18:59

Amy Martin: That's good with me.

Speaker: 00:19:00

Amy Martin: I'm glad we get to go.

Speaker: 00:19:01

Amy Martin: Do you want me to push off?

Speaker: 00:19:06

Gideon James: That's alright. I can do it I think.

Speaker: 00:19:08

Gideon James: And you

Speaker: 00:19:10

Gideon James: know how to swim?

Speaker: 00:19:13

Amy Martin: A little bit.

Speaker: 00:19:17

Amy Martin: Hopefully, I won't need those

Speaker: 00:19:18

Amy Martin: skills.

Speaker: 00:19:20

Amy Martin: Gideon is a couple of years

Speaker: 00:19:21

Amy Martin: older than Sarah.

Speaker: 00:19:22

Amy Martin: And other than struggling to

Speaker: 00:19:23

Amy Martin: hear well, he shows no signs

Speaker: 00:19:25

Amy Martin: of slowing down.

Speaker: 00:19:26

Amy Martin: He expertly maneuvers us out

Speaker: 00:19:28

Amy Martin: into the calm waters of the

Speaker: 00:19:29

Amy Martin: creek and paddles us toward

Speaker: 00:19:31

Amy Martin: a net that he strung up across

Speaker: 00:19:32

Amy Martin: it.

Speaker: 00:19:33

Amy Martin: We haven't gone very far when

Speaker: 00:19:34

Amy Martin: he spots trouble.

Speaker: 00:19:36

Amy Martin: A muskrat.

Speaker: 00:19:37

Amy Martin: Muskrat. A muskrat right there. He's fooling around with my

Speaker: 00:19:37

Amy Martin: net. He chew my net.

Speaker: 00:19:46

Amy Martin: I'm mad at him.

Speaker: 00:19:48

Amy Martin: But soon, we've got other

Speaker: 00:19:50

Amy Martin: things to focus on.

Speaker: 00:19:51

Amy Martin: There's one! That's a big one

Speaker: 00:19:53

Amy Martin: down there.

Speaker: 00:19:54

Amy Martin: Gideon paddles us up close to

Speaker: 00:19:56

Amy Martin: the net, and I look down into

Speaker: 00:19:57

Amy Martin: the clear water.

Speaker: 00:19:58

Amy Martin: We've got at least two more,

Speaker: 00:20:00

Amy Martin: I think. Maybe three more.

Speaker: 00:20:03

Amy Martin: He starts to pull the net up.

Speaker: 00:20:05

Gideon James: Like I hear something.

Speaker: 00:20:07

Amy Martin: And soon he's holding a huge

Speaker: 00:20:08

Amy Martin: northern pike in his hands.

Speaker: 00:20:11

Gideon James: We got a goddamned monster.

Speaker: 00:20:13

Amy Martin: It is a monster.

Speaker: 00:20:14

Gideon James: Monster!

Speaker: 00:20:15

Amy Martin: Yeah.

Speaker: 00:20:17

Amy Martin: My God.

Speaker: 00:20:18

Gideon James: We

Speaker: 00:20:21

Gideon James: got a monster there.

Speaker: 00:20:25

Amy Martin: We spent about a half hour

Speaker: 00:20:27

Amy Martin: pulling fish out of the net.

Speaker: 00:20:29

Gideon James: Two together.

Speaker: 00:20:30

Amy Martin: And then he paddled the canoe

Speaker: 00:20:31

Amy Martin: back to the bank.

Speaker: 00:20:32

Amy Martin: We walked back to his house.

Speaker: 00:20:33

Amy Martin: Each of us carrying a big

Speaker: 00:20:35

Amy Martin: bucket full of fish.

Speaker: 00:20:39

Amy Martin: Gideon is a maker and

Speaker: 00:20:41

Amy Martin: a fixer.

Speaker: 00:20:42

Amy Martin: In one room of his house, he's

Speaker: 00:20:43

Amy Martin: preparing a boat motor next

Speaker: 00:20:45

Amy Martin: to a table where he's making

Speaker: 00:20:46

Amy Martin: delicate jewelry.

Speaker: 00:20:48

Amy Martin: It seems like there's nothing

Speaker: 00:20:49

Amy Martin: he can't do.

Speaker: 00:20:51

Amy Martin: A hand-painted sign over his

Speaker: 00:20:52

Amy Martin: workbench says, "Think patient,

Speaker: 00:20:54

Amy Martin: don't rush and

Speaker: 00:20:55

Amy Martin: understand your work."

Speaker: 00:20:57

Amy Martin: And another handmade sign with

Speaker: 00:20:59

Amy Martin: a drawing of a drum on it says,

Speaker: 00:21:00

Amy Martin: "Save Arctic

Speaker: 00:21:02

Amy Martin: refuge."

Speaker: 00:21:04

Amy Martin: We start talking about drilling

Speaker: 00:21:05

Amy Martin: in the refuge and the jolly

Speaker: 00:21:07

Amy Martin: tone that Gideon had when we

Speaker: 00:21:08

Amy Martin: were out in the canoe quickly

Speaker: 00:21:10

Amy Martin: changes.

Speaker: 00:21:11

Gideon James: We don't need to go to we don't

Speaker: 00:21:12

Gideon James: need to go to the coastal

Speaker: 00:21:14

Gideon James: plain.

Speaker: 00:21:15

Gideon James: We don't need to do that.

Speaker: 00:21:17

Gideon James: Do you think.

Speaker: 00:21:19

Gideon James: They think that's progress.

Speaker: 00:21:20

Gideon James: That's not progress.

Speaker: 00:21:21

Amy Martin: Gideon is opposed to drilling

Speaker: 00:21:23

Amy Martin: in the refuge for all kinds of

Speaker: 00:21:24

Amy Martin: reasons.

Speaker: 00:21:25

Amy Martin: He wants to protect the

Speaker: 00:21:26

Amy Martin: caribou. He's worried about

Speaker: 00:21:27

Amy Martin: climate change, and

Speaker: 00:21:29

Amy Martin: he does not see evidence for

Speaker: 00:21:30

Amy Martin: the argument that development

Speaker: 00:21:32

Amy Martin: is really improving the lives

Speaker: 00:21:33

Amy Martin: of Alaskan native people.

Speaker: 00:21:35

Gideon James: The issue is that

Speaker: 00:21:37

Gideon James: is the cooperation rip off

Speaker: 00:21:39

Gideon James: that's been that keep happening

Speaker: 00:21:40

Gideon James: in our lives later this

Speaker: 00:21:44

Gideon James: year. It is a puppet to that.

Speaker: 00:21:46

Amy Martin: He traces that disconnect back

Speaker: 00:21:48

Amy Martin: to the Alaska Native Claims

Speaker: 00:21:49

Amy Martin: Settlement Act or answer

Speaker: 00:21:51

Amy Martin: the 1971 land claims

Speaker: 00:21:53

Amy Martin: bill that we talked about a

Speaker: 00:21:54

Amy Martin: couple of episodes ago.

Speaker: 00:21:55

Gideon James: A steady land claims bill.

Speaker: 00:21:58

Gideon James: The way it was designed

Speaker: 00:22:00

Gideon James: is terrible.

Speaker: 00:22:01

Amy Martin: When he first heard about

Speaker: 00:22:02

Amy Martin: ANCSA, Gideon says he

Speaker: 00:22:04

Amy Martin: thought it was going to be good

Speaker: 00:22:05

Amy Martin: for his community and all

Speaker: 00:22:06

Amy Martin: indigenous Alaskans

Speaker: 00:22:08

Amy Martin: because that's the way the

Speaker: 00:22:09

Amy Martin: legislation was promoted

Speaker: 00:22:11

Amy Martin: in places like Arctic Village.

Speaker: 00:22:13

Gideon James: In the early 70s, I believe.

Speaker: 00:22:14

Gideon James: All the stuff that they were

Speaker: 00:22:16

Gideon James: going to say, they're going to

Speaker: 00:22:17

Gideon James: do that it was a promise

Speaker: 00:22:19

Gideon James: of economic boom and

Speaker: 00:22:20

Gideon James: better school

Speaker: 00:22:22

Gideon James: and a better health program in

Speaker: 00:22:24

Gideon James: Alaska, which never

Speaker: 00:22:25

Gideon James: became legal.

Speaker: 00:22:27

Amy Martin: Gideon says he started to have

Speaker: 00:22:29

Amy Martin: doubts about anchor in the

Speaker: 00:22:30

Amy Martin: 1980s, when he learned

Speaker: 00:22:32

Amy Martin: an important part of the origin

Speaker: 00:22:33

Amy Martin: story that wasn't clear to him

Speaker: 00:22:35

Amy Martin: from the start, and that

Speaker: 00:22:36

Amy Martin: was that a key motivator for

Speaker: 00:22:38

Amy Martin: the passage of the bill

Speaker: 00:22:39

Amy Martin: was the movement of oil.

Speaker: 00:22:41

Gideon James: The government,

Speaker: 00:22:43

Gideon James: in order to get a

Speaker: 00:22:45

Gideon James: corridor for the oil pipeline,

Speaker: 00:22:48

Gideon James: they have to make a settlement

Speaker: 00:22:49

Gideon James: with it when they

Speaker: 00:22:51

Gideon James: need it first.

Speaker: 00:22:53

Gideon James: This is what happened.

Speaker: 00:22:56

Amy Martin: To track what Gideon is saying

Speaker: 00:22:57

Amy Martin: here, you need to know that

Speaker: 00:22:58

Amy Martin: indigenous Alaskans had been

Speaker: 00:23:00

Amy Martin: advocating for some kind of

Speaker: 00:23:02

Amy Martin: land claim agreement for a long

Speaker: 00:23:04

Amy Martin: time before ANCSA was passed.

Speaker: 00:23:06

Amy Martin: But the people in power who

Speaker: 00:23:08

Amy Martin: were almost exclusively white

Speaker: 00:23:09

Amy Martin: pretty much ignored them

Speaker: 00:23:11

Amy Martin: until oil was discovered

Speaker: 00:23:13

Amy Martin: at Prudhoe Bay in the late

Speaker: 00:23:14

Amy Martin: 1960s.

Speaker: 00:23:15

Amy Martin: Suddenly, a pipeline needed

Speaker: 00:23:17

Amy Martin: to be built.

Speaker: 00:23:18

Amy Martin: And Gideon's right.

Speaker: 00:23:20

Amy Martin: That is what finally spurred

Speaker: 00:23:21

Amy Martin: lawmakers to clarify Alaska

Speaker: 00:23:23

Amy Martin: native land claims.

Speaker: 00:23:25

Amy Martin: It was to clear the way for oil

Speaker: 00:23:26

Amy Martin: development and to sweeten

Speaker: 00:23:28

Amy Martin: the deal, they made a lot of

Speaker: 00:23:29

Amy Martin: promises about how life was

Speaker: 00:23:31

Amy Martin: going to improve for Alaskan

Speaker: 00:23:32

Amy Martin: native people.

Speaker: 00:23:33

Gideon James: And here, you know,

Speaker: 00:23:35

Gideon James: after 40 years,

Speaker: 00:23:37

Gideon James: those things are not true.

Speaker: 00:23:39

Gideon James: Yeah.

Speaker: 00:23:40

Gideon James: Those things not true.

Speaker: 00:23:41

Gideon James: Today.

Speaker: 00:23:42

Amy Martin: Gideon raised three boys, and

Speaker: 00:23:44

Amy Martin: he says one of them was an

Speaker: 00:23:45

Amy Martin: especially eager student.

Speaker: 00:23:48

Gideon James: When he graduated from high

Speaker: 00:23:49

Gideon James: school, he wanted to go to

Speaker: 00:23:50

Gideon James: university,

Speaker: 00:23:52

Gideon James: and he found out

Speaker: 00:23:54

Gideon James: that he doesn't, he

Speaker: 00:23:56

Gideon James: doesn't have

Speaker: 00:23:59

Gideon James: the level.

Speaker: 00:24:00

Gideon James: He doesn't have the standard.

Speaker: 00:24:05

Gideon James: It just.

Speaker: 00:24:07

Gideon James: It just killed the dream.

Speaker: 00:24:11

Gideon James: I mean, I hate to say it, but

Speaker: 00:24:13

Gideon James: that's what goes on all

Speaker: 00:24:15

Gideon James: over.

Speaker: 00:24:16

Gideon James: There's a lot of bright kids in

Speaker: 00:24:17

Gideon James: the state.

Speaker: 00:24:23

Gideon James: You know, our kids need to

Speaker: 00:24:25

Gideon James: receive a good education.

Speaker: 00:24:26

Gideon James: They need to have good health

Speaker: 00:24:27

Gideon James: program.

Speaker: 00:24:29

Gideon James: They don't cut it.

Speaker: 00:24:30

Gideon James: They don't have it.

Speaker: 00:24:32

Amy Martin: When Gideon says that's what

Speaker: 00:24:34

Amy Martin: goes on all over, I

Speaker: 00:24:36

Amy Martin: think he's talking about the

Speaker: 00:24:37

Amy Martin: big achievement gaps among

Speaker: 00:24:39

Amy Martin: Alaska students.

Speaker: 00:24:40

Amy Martin: For instance, in 2019,

Speaker: 00:24:42

Amy Martin: just 9% of Alaska

Speaker: 00:24:44

Amy Martin: Native and American Indian

Speaker: 00:24:46

Amy Martin: eighth graders were scored as

Speaker: 00:24:47

Amy Martin: proficient in reading in

Speaker: 00:24:49

Amy Martin: national testing.

Speaker: 00:24:50

Amy Martin: That's compared to 33%

Speaker: 00:24:52

Amy Martin: of their white counterparts in

Speaker: 00:24:53

Amy Martin: the state.

Speaker: 00:24:55

Amy Martin: So for Gideon,

Speaker: 00:24:56

Amy Martin: the idea that drilling for more

Speaker: 00:24:58

Amy Martin: oil is going to lift up Native

Speaker: 00:24:59

Amy Martin: people in Alaska is

Speaker: 00:25:01

Amy Martin: almost insulting.

Speaker: 00:25:03

Amy Martin: They've had 40 years to do

Speaker: 00:25:04

Amy Martin: that, he says, and it hasn't

Speaker: 00:25:06

Amy Martin: happened.

Speaker: 00:25:07

Amy Martin: From his perspective, drilling

Speaker: 00:25:09

Amy Martin: in the Arctic National Wildlife

Speaker: 00:25:10

Amy Martin: Refuge looks like another bad

Speaker: 00:25:12

Amy Martin: idea in which outsiders

Speaker: 00:25:14

Amy Martin: reap the rewards and the

Speaker: 00:25:15

Amy Martin: Gwich'in feel the losses.

Speaker: 00:25:18

Amy Martin: And that's what climate change

Speaker: 00:25:19

Amy Martin: looks like to him, too.

Speaker: 00:25:23

Gideon James: Yeah. One of the things that's

Speaker: 00:25:24

Gideon James: happening as we look out the

Speaker: 00:25:26

Gideon James: window right now, you see part

Speaker: 00:25:27

Gideon James: of the

Speaker: 00:25:29

Gideon James: leaves are growing up.

Speaker: 00:25:30

Gideon James: It never, it never grew that

Speaker: 00:25:32

Gideon James: fast.

Speaker: 00:25:33

Amy Martin: It's called Arctic greening

Speaker: 00:25:34

Amy Martin: and scientists have been

Speaker: 00:25:35

Amy Martin: tracking it for decades.

Speaker: 00:25:37

Amy Martin: As the climate warms,

Speaker: 00:25:38

Amy Martin: vegetation is growing taller

Speaker: 00:25:40

Amy Martin: and thicker in many parts of

Speaker: 00:25:41

Amy Martin: the far north.

Speaker: 00:25:42

Amy Martin: That's partly why there have

Speaker: 00:25:43

Amy Martin: been more wildfires in the

Speaker: 00:25:45

Amy Martin: Arctic in recent years.

Speaker: 00:25:46

Gideon James: It never used to be like that.

Speaker: 00:25:49

Gideon James: And permafrost.

Speaker: 00:25:49

Gideon James: They're melting.

Speaker: 00:25:51

Gideon James: You know,

Speaker: 00:25:53

Gideon James: they're melting.

Speaker: 00:25:54

Gideon James: You know, you and I

Speaker: 00:25:56

Gideon James: know that climate change is

Speaker: 00:25:58

Gideon James: happening and

Speaker: 00:26:00

Gideon James: we just can't sit down and talk

Speaker: 00:26:02

Gideon James: about it. We need to do

Speaker: 00:26:03

Gideon James: something about it.

Speaker: 00:26:05

Gideon James: We need to do something about

Speaker: 00:26:07

Gideon James: it.

Speaker: 00:26:09

Trimble Gilbert: Very sad thing to see

Speaker: 00:26:11

Trimble Gilbert: when I grew up here.

Speaker: 00:26:13

Trimble Gilbert: There's a lot of birch, ducks,

Speaker: 00:26:19

Trimble Gilbert: ptarmigan and,

Speaker: 00:26:22

Trimble Gilbert: you know, swallow.

Speaker: 00:26:24

Trimble Gilbert: You can see a thousand of them

Speaker: 00:26:26

Trimble Gilbert: around here.

Speaker: 00:26:28

Trimble Gilbert: And you can hear it every

Speaker: 00:26:30

Trimble Gilbert: day.

Speaker: 00:26:31

Amy Martin: This is Trimble Gilbert.

Speaker: 00:26:33

Trimble Gilbert: Now it's

Speaker: 00:26:36

Trimble Gilbert: going away.

Speaker: 00:26:38

Trimble Gilbert: Very sad.

Speaker: 00:26:40

Trimble Gilbert: There's some few birds

Speaker: 00:26:42

Trimble Gilbert: around here.

Speaker: 00:26:44

Trimble Gilbert: They're pretty quiet.

Speaker: 00:26:45

Trimble Gilbert: Even up in springtime,

Speaker: 00:26:48

Trimble Gilbert: they're up and when they sing

Speaker: 00:26:50

Trimble Gilbert: with a clear voice.

Speaker: 00:26:53

Trimble Gilbert: And they, their voice, even

Speaker: 00:26:55

Trimble Gilbert: not clear

Speaker: 00:26:57

Trimble Gilbert: the way they used to sing.

Speaker: 00:26:59

Trimble Gilbert: It's

Speaker: 00:27:00

Trimble Gilbert: their voices change,

Speaker: 00:27:03

Trimble Gilbert: just like my voice changed.

Speaker: 00:27:04

Trimble Gilbert: Same thing.

Speaker: 00:27:06

Amy Martin: Trimble and his wife welcomed

Speaker: 00:27:07

Amy Martin: me into their cozy home in

Speaker: 00:27:08

Amy Martin: Arctic Village.

Speaker: 00:27:09

Amy Martin: And as he and I talked in a

Speaker: 00:27:11

Amy Martin: back room, I could hear their

Speaker: 00:27:12

Amy Martin: children and grandchildren

Speaker: 00:27:14

Amy Martin: stopping by and helping out in

Speaker: 00:27:15

Amy Martin: the kitchen.

Speaker: 00:27:17

Amy Martin: Trimble's first language is

Speaker: 00:27:18

Amy Martin: Gwich'in.

Speaker: 00:27:19

Amy Martin: He says he learned English in

Speaker: 00:27:20

Amy Martin: his 20s and he's dedicated

Speaker: 00:27:22

Amy Martin: a lot of his life to passing

Speaker: 00:27:23

Amy Martin: on Gwich'in language and

Speaker: 00:27:25

Amy Martin: culture to the next generation.

Speaker: 00:27:27

Trimble Gilbert: I'm the traditional

Speaker: 00:27:28

Trimble Gilbert: chief here,

Speaker: 00:27:31

Trimble Gilbert: and I'm also a

Speaker: 00:27:33

Trimble Gilbert: minister.

Speaker: 00:27:34

Trimble Gilbert: I'm elder, and I can

Speaker: 00:27:36

Trimble Gilbert: say anything I want.

Speaker: 00:27:37

Amy Martin: Even in his mid-eighties,

Speaker: 00:27:39

Amy Martin: Trimble radiates strength

Speaker: 00:27:41

Amy Martin: and also gentleness.

Speaker: 00:27:43

Amy Martin: It's immediately clear talking

Speaker: 00:27:44

Amy Martin: with him that his thoughts are

Speaker: 00:27:46

Amy Martin: sourced from a deep place.

Speaker: 00:27:48

Trimble Gilbert: A lot of people, they

Speaker: 00:27:50

Trimble Gilbert: want more to hear about the

Speaker: 00:27:52

Trimble Gilbert: love and kindness.

Speaker: 00:27:55

Trimble Gilbert: They're all looking for the

Speaker: 00:27:56

Trimble Gilbert: good leaders.

Speaker: 00:27:58

Trimble Gilbert: The one who really talk

Speaker: 00:28:00

Trimble Gilbert: with good work

Speaker: 00:28:03

Trimble Gilbert: given that to the nations.

Speaker: 00:28:05

Trimble Gilbert: That's what I want to hear.

Speaker: 00:28:08

Amy Martin: Like Sara and Gideon, Trimble

Speaker: 00:28:09

Amy Martin: grew up mostly out on the land,

Speaker: 00:28:11

Amy Martin: learning all the skills he

Speaker: 00:28:12

Amy Martin: needed to survive here from his

Speaker: 00:28:14

Amy Martin: family and community.

Speaker: 00:28:16

Trimble Gilbert: I don't think we're poor.

Speaker: 00:28:20

Trimble Gilbert: But then we got everything

Speaker: 00:28:21

Trimble Gilbert: we need

Speaker: 00:28:24

Trimble Gilbert: and land and water

Speaker: 00:28:27

Trimble Gilbert: and we still got a lot of

Speaker: 00:28:28

Trimble Gilbert: animals to eat.

Speaker: 00:28:30

Trimble Gilbert: So I feel like I'm we

Speaker: 00:28:31

Trimble Gilbert: are very rich.

Speaker: 00:28:33

Amy Martin: And the foundation of that

Speaker: 00:28:34

Amy Martin: wealth was and is

Speaker: 00:28:36

Amy Martin: the caribou.

Speaker: 00:28:37

Trimble Gilbert: I grew up with traditional

Speaker: 00:28:39

Trimble Gilbert: food and

Speaker: 00:28:41

Trimble Gilbert: I feel strong.

Speaker: 00:28:42

Trimble Gilbert: A lot of people told me that

Speaker: 00:28:44

Trimble Gilbert: too, and

Speaker: 00:28:46

Trimble Gilbert: they ate their own food

Speaker: 00:28:48

Trimble Gilbert: and a lot more energy

Speaker: 00:28:50

Trimble Gilbert: for that day.

Speaker: 00:28:52

Trimble Gilbert: Like food is not just like

Speaker: 00:28:53

Trimble Gilbert: medicine for

Speaker: 00:28:55

Trimble Gilbert: the Athabaskan up here.

Speaker: 00:28:58

Trimble Gilbert: So we

Speaker: 00:29:00

Trimble Gilbert: know that history about that

Speaker: 00:29:02

Trimble Gilbert: and we want to save

Speaker: 00:29:03

Trimble Gilbert: whatever we've got here, like

Speaker: 00:29:05

Trimble Gilbert: Porcupine herd.

Speaker: 00:29:07

Amy Martin: I talked with Trimble for more

Speaker: 00:29:08

Amy Martin: than an hour, and he brought up

Speaker: 00:29:09

Amy Martin: food and health over

Speaker: 00:29:11

Amy Martin: and over.

Speaker: 00:29:12

Amy Martin: He's very concerned about these

Speaker: 00:29:14

Amy Martin: things because he's witnessed

Speaker: 00:29:15

Amy Martin: what happens when non-native

Speaker: 00:29:17

Amy Martin: food replaces traditional

Speaker: 00:29:18

Amy Martin: diets.

Speaker: 00:29:19

Amy Martin: Numerous studies on indigenous

Speaker: 00:29:21

Amy Martin: communities in the Alaskan and

Speaker: 00:29:22

Amy Martin: Canadian Arctic, point to the

Speaker: 00:29:24

Amy Martin: transition away from

Speaker: 00:29:25

Amy Martin: traditional food as a source

Speaker: 00:29:27

Amy Martin: of skyrocketing rates of

Speaker: 00:29:28

Amy Martin: diabetes, anemia,

Speaker: 00:29:30

Amy Martin: mental health struggles and

Speaker: 00:29:32

Amy Martin: other health problems.

Speaker: 00:29:34

Amy Martin: Trimble remembers what it was

Speaker: 00:29:35

Amy Martin: like when everyone ate food

Speaker: 00:29:36

Amy Martin: they hunted and gathered

Speaker: 00:29:38

Amy Martin: together as a community

Speaker: 00:29:39

Amy Martin: from the land and water around

Speaker: 00:29:41

Amy Martin: them.

Speaker: 00:29:41

Trimble Gilbert: I'm talking about very healthy

Speaker: 00:29:43

Trimble Gilbert: and strong people.

Speaker: 00:29:45

Trimble Gilbert: Kids and all, all very

Speaker: 00:29:47

Trimble Gilbert: healthy. I remember that.

Speaker: 00:29:53

Amy Martin: For the very first season of

Speaker: 00:29:54

Amy Martin: our show, I reported on the

Speaker: 00:29:55

Amy Martin: story of the American bison.

Speaker: 00:29:57

Amy Martin: Of how abundant they once were

Speaker: 00:29:59

Amy Martin: and how central they were and

Speaker: 00:30:01

Amy Martin: still are to many indigenous

Speaker: 00:30:02

Amy Martin: cultures.

Speaker: 00:30:04

Amy Martin: As Trimble was talking, I

Speaker: 00:30:06

Amy Martin: remembered hearing Native

Speaker: 00:30:07

Amy Martin: Americans I interviewed about

Speaker: 00:30:08

Amy Martin: bison, telling me they'd

Speaker: 00:30:10

Amy Martin: heard their grandparents and

Speaker: 00:30:11

Amy Martin: great grandparents saying

Speaker: 00:30:13

Amy Martin: things almost exactly like

Speaker: 00:30:15

Amy Martin: what Trimble was saying about

Speaker: 00:30:16

Amy Martin: the caribou.

Speaker: 00:30:17

Trimble Gilbert: They are a healthy animal,

Speaker: 00:30:20

Trimble Gilbert: and that's one

Speaker: 00:30:22

Trimble Gilbert: of our main nutritions

Speaker: 00:30:24

Trimble Gilbert: for the people.

Speaker: 00:30:26

Trimble Gilbert: With thousands of years,

Speaker: 00:30:28

Trimble Gilbert: like I told you about when I

Speaker: 00:30:30

Trimble Gilbert: was a kid.

Speaker: 00:30:31

Trimble Gilbert: People are healthy people.

Speaker: 00:30:34

Trimble Gilbert: It's a healthy food.

Speaker: 00:30:39

Amy Martin: The near destruction of the

Speaker: 00:30:40

Amy Martin: bison was part of the genocide

Speaker: 00:30:42

Amy Martin: of Native American people.

Speaker: 00:30:44

Amy Martin: And starvation is not only

Speaker: 00:30:46

Amy Martin: a physical thing.

Speaker: 00:30:47

Amy Martin: Cultures can be starved out,

Speaker: 00:30:49

Amy Martin: too.

Speaker: 00:30:50

Trimble Gilbert: Without that caribou and I

Speaker: 00:30:51

Trimble Gilbert: don't know how we will survive.

Speaker: 00:30:54

Trimble Gilbert: It'll be hard for us.

Speaker: 00:30:57

Amy Martin: In March of 2019,

Speaker: 00:30:59

Amy Martin: Dana Tizya-Tramm also

Speaker: 00:31:00

Amy Martin: made the connection to the

Speaker: 00:31:01

Amy Martin: buffalo when he spoke at a

Speaker: 00:31:03

Amy Martin: committee hearing in the U.S.

Speaker: 00:31:04

Amy Martin: Congress.

Speaker: 00:31:05

Dana Tizya-Tramm: I notice in the paintings on

Speaker: 00:31:06

Dana Tizya-Tramm: your walls you have a Buffalo

Speaker: 00:31:08

Dana Tizya-Tramm: people.

Speaker: 00:31:09

Dana Tizya-Tramm: While I'm proud to sit in front

Speaker: 00:31:11

Dana Tizya-Tramm: of you today as

Speaker: 00:31:13

Dana Tizya-Tramm: a caribou people.

Speaker: 00:31:15

Dana Tizya-Tramm: As Gwich'in.

Speaker: 00:31:16

Amy Martin: This is the same person we

Speaker: 00:31:17

Amy Martin: heard in the first half of this

Speaker: 00:31:18

Amy Martin: episode. The chief of the

Speaker: 00:31:20

Amy Martin: Vuntut Gwich'in First Nation of

Speaker: 00:31:21

Amy Martin: the Yukon in Canada.

Speaker: 00:31:23

Dana Tizya-Tramm: We have lived in balance with

Speaker: 00:31:24

Dana Tizya-Tramm: the Porcupine caribou herd

Speaker: 00:31:26

Dana Tizya-Tramm: since before any mark of modern

Speaker: 00:31:28

Dana Tizya-Tramm: history, and now

Speaker: 00:31:29

Dana Tizya-Tramm: development threatens to

Speaker: 00:31:30

Dana Tizya-Tramm: destabilize all of this.

Speaker: 00:31:32

Dana Tizya-Tramm: I am here today to testify

Speaker: 00:31:34

Dana Tizya-Tramm: that this development on the

Speaker: 00:31:35

Dana Tizya-Tramm: coastal plain amounts to the

Speaker: 00:31:37

Dana Tizya-Tramm: cultural genocide of the entire

Speaker: 00:31:39

Dana Tizya-Tramm: Gwich'in Nation.

Speaker: 00:31:42

Amy Martin: And there's another aspect of

Speaker: 00:31:44

Amy Martin: the American bison story that

Speaker: 00:31:45

Amy Martin: seems relevant here.

Speaker: 00:31:47

Amy Martin: Long before the bison were

Speaker: 00:31:48

Amy Martin: nearly exterminated, white

Speaker: 00:31:50

Amy Martin: people began to eulogize them.

Speaker: 00:31:52

Amy Martin: In fact, they referred to both

Speaker: 00:31:54

Amy Martin: the American bison and the

Speaker: 00:31:56

Amy Martin: American Indian as lost

Speaker: 00:31:58

Amy Martin: or vanishing or disappearing

Speaker: 00:32:01

Amy Martin: when there were still hundreds

Speaker: 00:32:02

Amy Martin: of thousands of wild buffalo

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Amy Martin: out on the landscape and many

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Amy Martin: tribes still hunting them in

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Amy Martin: traditional ways.

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Amy Martin: Looking back at this time, from

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Amy Martin: our present moment, you can

Speaker: 00:32:12

Amy Martin: see that there was this window

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Amy Martin: when people in power had

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Amy Martin: an awareness of what was being

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Amy Martin: lost and had the opportunity

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Amy Martin: to act to try to stop

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Amy Martin: the destruction of the bison

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Amy Martin: and the brutal violence against

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Amy Martin: native people.

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Amy Martin: But for the most part, they

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Amy Martin: didn't take that opportunity.

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Trimble Gilbert: We asking for help.

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Trimble Gilbert: We want to continue to

Speaker: 00:32:32

Trimble Gilbert: keep this land

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Trimble Gilbert: the way it is, this

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Trimble Gilbert: small area.

Speaker: 00:32:39

Amy Martin: Again, Trimble Gilbert.

Speaker: 00:32:40

Trimble Gilbert: People should understand

Speaker: 00:32:42

Trimble Gilbert: and they should

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Trimble Gilbert: support

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Trimble Gilbert: Athabascan people.

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Trimble Gilbert: They are right to

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Trimble Gilbert: stand for their country.

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Bernadette Demientieff: My identity is not up for

Speaker: 00:32:56

Bernadette Demientieff: negotiation.

Speaker: 00:32:57

Bernadette Demientieff: My identity is important

Speaker: 00:32:59

Bernadette Demientieff: to me. It may not be important

Speaker: 00:33:01

Bernadette Demientieff: to people, but it's important

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Bernadette Demientieff: to me. And I matter.

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Bernadette Demientieff: My children matter and my

Speaker: 00:33:05

Bernadette Demientieff: people matter.

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Amy Martin: I'm back in Fairbanks talking

Speaker: 00:33:09

Amy Martin: to Bernadette Demientieff, the

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Amy Martin: executive director of the

Speaker: 00:33:11

Amy Martin: Gwich'in Steering Committee.

Speaker: 00:33:13

Bernadette Demientieff: None of this belongs to us.

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Bernadette Demientieff: None of

Speaker: 00:33:18

Bernadette Demientieff: this belongs to us.

Speaker: 00:33:20

Bernadette Demientieff: We're passing through

Speaker: 00:33:23

Bernadette Demientieff: and we need to take care of

Speaker: 00:33:24

Bernadette Demientieff: stuff that's given to us.

Speaker: 00:33:26

Bernadette Demientieff: And that is what our elders

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Bernadette Demientieff: told us.

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Bernadette Demientieff: At the gathering,

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Bernadette Demientieff: they only told us to go out and

Speaker: 00:33:32

Bernadette Demientieff: educate the world and do

Speaker: 00:33:34

Bernadette Demientieff: it in a good way.

Speaker: 00:33:36

Amy Martin: You've probably noticed that a

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Amy Martin: lot of the Gwich'in people I

Speaker: 00:33:39

Amy Martin: spoke with used that phrase

Speaker: 00:33:40

Amy Martin: that they're trying to do

Speaker: 00:33:42

Amy Martin: things in a good way.

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Amy Martin: When I asked Sarah James what

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Amy Martin: she meant by it, she answered

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Amy Martin: by giving examples like

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Amy Martin: with the moose meat she said,

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Amy Martin: doing it in a good way means

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Amy Martin: you keep expanding the circle

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Amy Martin: of giving outward.

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Amy Martin: You pay attention to the needs

Speaker: 00:33:56

Amy Martin: of the people around you and

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Amy Martin: you share what you have.

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Amy Martin: And it's about more than that.

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Amy Martin: To the more Gwich'in people

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Amy Martin: I talked with and the more I

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Amy Martin: heard this phrase, I realized

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Amy Martin: that doing things in a good way

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Amy Martin: is a really deep concept.

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Amy Martin: I'm sure I don't fully

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Amy Martin: understand it, but from what

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Amy Martin: I can gather, it's also

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Amy Martin: about what you value, what your

Speaker: 00:34:16

Amy Martin: priorities are.

Speaker: 00:34:17

Amy Martin: It's about showing respect to

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Amy Martin: others and also respecting

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Amy Martin: yourself and

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Amy Martin: how those things are

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Amy Martin: interconnected.

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Amy Martin: As the public face of the

Speaker: 00:34:27

Amy Martin: Gwich'in Steering Committee,

Speaker: 00:34:28

Amy Martin: Bernadette has to try to live

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Amy Martin: this ethos everywhere she

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Amy Martin: goes, including Capitol

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Amy Martin: Hill.

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Amy Martin: I asked her how she does it.

Speaker: 00:34:36

Bernadette Demientieff: You know, it's not always easy

Speaker: 00:34:38

Bernadette Demientieff: to do it in a good way,

Speaker: 00:34:40

Bernadette Demientieff: especially now.

Speaker: 00:34:41

Amy Martin: Bernadette told me she met with

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Amy Martin: Alaska Senator Lisa Murkowski

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Amy Martin: to try to get her to understand

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Amy Martin: the Gwich'in perspective on

Speaker: 00:34:48

Amy Martin: drilling in the refuge.

Speaker: 00:34:50

Bernadette Demientieff: And, you know, I respect

Speaker: 00:34:51

Bernadette Demientieff: her. I know she has to make a

Speaker: 00:34:53

Bernadette Demientieff: lot of really tough decisions.

Speaker: 00:34:56

Bernadette Demientieff: And I know she has to bring

Speaker: 00:34:57

Bernadette Demientieff: some jobs to Alaska,

Speaker: 00:34:59

Bernadette Demientieff: but it shouldn't be at the

Speaker: 00:35:00

Bernadette Demientieff: price of wiping out a tribe.

Speaker: 00:35:06

Bernadette Demientieff: We need

Speaker: 00:35:08

Bernadette Demientieff: to be respected.

Speaker: 00:35:09

Bernadette Demientieff: Like, you can't

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Bernadette Demientieff: just come into our home and

Speaker: 00:35:13

Bernadette Demientieff: just tell us,

Speaker: 00:35:15

Bernadette Demientieff: you know, I'm sorry, but

Speaker: 00:35:16

Bernadette Demientieff: we're not

Speaker: 00:35:18

Bernadette Demientieff: you're not going to be able to

Speaker: 00:35:19

Bernadette Demientieff: have these animals here.

Speaker: 00:35:21

Bernadette Demientieff: No more work.

Speaker: 00:35:22

Bernadette Demientieff: You can't just come into

Speaker: 00:35:23

Bernadette Demientieff: somebody's home and do that.

Speaker: 00:35:25

Bernadette Demientieff: And this is

Speaker: 00:35:27

Bernadette Demientieff: our home.

Speaker: 00:35:28

Bernadette Demientieff: We've been here for

Speaker: 00:35:29

Bernadette Demientieff: over 20,000

Speaker: 00:35:32

Bernadette Demientieff: years.

Speaker: 00:35:34

Bernadette Demientieff: And you know, my children,

Speaker: 00:35:36

Bernadette Demientieff: this is their birthright.

Speaker: 00:35:38

Bernadette Demientieff: And, you know, I

Speaker: 00:35:40

Bernadette Demientieff: will stand up till

Speaker: 00:35:42

Bernadette Demientieff: my last breath defending

Speaker: 00:35:45

Bernadette Demientieff: my way of life, defending

Speaker: 00:35:46

Bernadette Demientieff: my children's future

Speaker: 00:35:49

Bernadette Demientieff: and defending my people.

Speaker: 00:35:53

Amy Martin: Again, here's Sarah James.

Speaker: 00:35:55

Sarah James: There's too much greed in this

Speaker: 00:35:57

Sarah James: world.

Speaker: 00:35:58

Sarah James: The earth can't take it.

Speaker: 00:36:02

Sarah James: Some people have got too much.

Speaker: 00:36:04

Sarah James: Some people don't have nothing.

Speaker: 00:36:07

Sarah James: And if we just gave

Speaker: 00:36:09

Sarah James: Earth to

Speaker: 00:36:11

Sarah James: live.

Speaker: 00:36:12

Sarah James: I think we all want to live

Speaker: 00:36:14

Sarah James: good and there

Speaker: 00:36:16

Sarah James: will be more peace.

Speaker: 00:36:18

Sarah James: We need to work on that all

Speaker: 00:36:19

Sarah James: together in order to

Speaker: 00:36:21

Sarah James: survive.

Speaker: 00:36:28

Amy Martin: Join us for our final episode

Speaker: 00:36:30

Amy Martin: of this series next time

Speaker: 00:36:32

Amy Martin: on Threshold.

Speaker: 00:36:41

Nick Mott: Our reporting was funded by the

Speaker: 00:36:43

Nick Mott: Pulitzer Center.

Speaker: 00:36:44

Nick Mott: Montana Public Radio, the Park

Speaker: 00:36:46

Nick Mott: Foundation, the High Stakes

Speaker: 00:36:47

Nick Mott: Foundation, the William H.

Speaker: 00:36:48

Nick Mott: And Mary Waters Harris

Speaker: 00:36:49

Nick Mott: Foundation. And by our

Speaker: 00:36:51

Nick Mott: listeners, our

Speaker: 00:36:52

Nick Mott: work depends on people who

Speaker: 00:36:53

Nick Mott: believe in it and choose to

Speaker: 00:36:55

Nick Mott: support it.

Speaker: 00:36:56

Nick Mott: People like you join our

Speaker: 00:36:57

Nick Mott: community at Thresholdpodcast.org.

Speaker: 00:37:02

Amy Martin: The team behind this episode of

Speaker: 00:37:04

Amy Martin: Threshold is Nick Mott, Eva

Speaker: 00:37:05

Amy Martin: Kalea, Michelle Woods, Caysi

Speaker: 00:37:07

Amy Martin: Simpson, Brook Artziniega,

Speaker: 00:37:08

Amy Martin: Tej Reddy, Lynn

Speaker: 00:37:10

Amy Martin: Lieu and Megan Myscofski.

Speaker: 00:37:12

Amy Martin: Special thanks to Frank Allen,

Speaker: 00:37:14

Amy Martin: Hana Carey, Dan Carreno,

Speaker: 00:37:16

Amy Martin: Michael Connor, Kara Cromwell,

Speaker: 00:37:18

Amy Martin: Katie DeFusco, Matt Herlihy

Speaker: 00:37:19

Amy Martin: and Rachel Klein.

Speaker: 00:37:21

Amy Martin: Our music is by Travis

Speaker: 00:37:23

Amy Martin: Yost.