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You are listening to

The Judgemental Podcast.

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We're Hugh and Christine, the Minds

Behind Judgy, the revolutionary app

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that empowers you to judge the judges.

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It's pastime for judicial accountability

and transparency within the courts.

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Prepare for sharp insights, candid

critiques, and unshakable honesty from

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two lawyers determined to save the system.

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We need some justice.

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Justice, my fine justice.

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And I wanna ring, be in public.

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I wanna ring, be in public crowd.

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Yeah.

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Christine: All right.

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Well, happy Monday.

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Big motion on today, I guess basically

for further findings and asking

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the judge to recuse Shelly Santry.

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Right?

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HB: Yeah.

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And it was a, yeah.

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Big motion.

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Mm-hmm.

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Big long, well-written motion.

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Christine: Very well-written and

very what's the word I'm looking for?

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We, you know, it was very clear

that the judge had an emotional

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reaction to the recusal.

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Abigail Green was just like, you wanna go?

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Let's go.

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HB: Maybe.

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Yeah.

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I mean, she, you could tell in the

motion some of the language that she

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took it personally as she should have.

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Mm-hmm.

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'cause it sounded the judge's

order seemed very personal.

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Yep.

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It was, doing anything wrong.

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You just don't like my last ruling.

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You want another bite of the apple,

which is exactly what it said.

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Yep.

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And.

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So I think there were like 18 pages of,

well, actually, here's what the law says.

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Mm-hmm.

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but it is alleged in this, in this

motion that, by the way, judge,

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you didn't just attend, you spoke,

you spoke, you took the mic.

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It may have been brief, but

you took the mic and Yeah.

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, The other piece that was significant

to me is, is the judge saying it wasn't

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a campaign, it was a kickoff event,

and then an exhibit to this motion.

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States, this is a campaign

a fundraising event.

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It's not fundraiser.

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So fundraising events are

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prohibited.

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Like the rules are very simple and

I, yeah, it seems like the judge

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played fast and loose with the facts.

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Absolutely.

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Hugh (2): I don't say that lightly.

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Chistine: Right.

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Hugh (2): It certainly, it seems

like it was minimized in a way that,

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Christine: it's like, when you read an

affidavit that's written by an attorney,

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It Says everything that's most favorable

to them and neglects a few things,

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but that's kind of how we are trained.

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But this judge, when she

had her, this is different.

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HB: It's to me, and I'm sorry to

interrupt, it's different when

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you say this is not a campaign.

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Oh, sure.

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That's a lie

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that saying things more favorable

to you, that's just outright false.

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Christine: Right?

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Well, and that's where I get, go down

this train of thought where when the

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GAL heard that knowing it was her

kickoff fundraiser, as a officer of the

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court candor to the court to say, your

Honor, it actually was a fundraiser.

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HB: Yeah.

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I don't know what specific rules

say related to candor to the

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court if I am sitting in there.

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And I'm sure she did not expect the

judge necessarily to say what she did

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when they were sitting in motion hour

and the judge had her first reaction.

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Yeah, and I believe that that included

the statement that this wasn't a

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fundraiser, it was a kickoff event.

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Yeah.

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That's the first time I heard that the GAL

was sitting in the room at that argument.

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I am sitting there and a judge

mischaracterizes that when

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it clearly was a fundraiser,

and I know it's a fundraiser.

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I would speak up in a heartbeat like that.

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It just wouldn't have been something that

I would've been like, oh, what do I do?

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What do I, mm-hmm.

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I mean, just would've been

like, whoa, hold on, judge.

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Whether or not that amounts to a

duty to the court, I don't know.

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Saying I agree.

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Yeah.

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, I don't know, but I, it,

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Christine: You just have, you

know, there's all of these

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emotional reactions to this one.

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Obviously one of these parents is not

comfortable anymore after seeing that

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HB: True.

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Yep.

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Christine: The law, as you

see in the 19 page 52.02

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and 59.05,

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which is basically just kind

of a motion to say, Hey, judge,

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we need more facts , basically.

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For additional

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HB: facts, yeah, you get to file a motion

to the court to alter, amend, or vacate.

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A prior ruling based on either a

manifest error of fact or law, and

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you have to point out which one it is.

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They pointed out , and argued that

it was a manifest error of law, which

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Christine: it was, in my opinion.

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Yeah.

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HB: Based on the actual judicial cannons.

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And I think they make a very

compelling case for that.

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Christine: And I do think 59 oh

fives are really good for a setup.

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Like if you're playing volleyball

for an appeal, like you're

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basically telling the judge.

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I'm gonna appeal you.

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Here's everything I've got.

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Or you can kind of also set 'em up.

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I'm gonna appeal you, so make it

worse for you or clean up the mess,

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HB: And there were certain

judges who always surprised me.

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That that would, if you point out an

error and they look at it and say, oh

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crap, I made an error, they'll correct it.

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Right?

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And then there are others that you

know will never correct things and

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will more than likely double or triple

down and sometimes make it worse

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to punish you for challenging them.

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And I would always tell my clients

when I was practicing that you

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don't expect to win on a 59.05.

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You don't expect to

actually make a difference.

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In the outcome of the order

that you're challenging, right?

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But you are setting this up for appeal.

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You are wanting them to say more,

you're wanting them to give you

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more language, more rationale

that you can use in the appeal.

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And in certain circumstances, and this

probably the case here, they throw in

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the request for additional findings,

even though I don't think they really

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use that in the motion because certain

types of appeals and certain issues.

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You can't, you can't allege the

judge doesn't make sufficient

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findings if you didn't ask the

judge to make sufficient findings.

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So if there is a, if there is an

argument that you're going to make on

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your appeal that the judge just didn't

explain something right correctly,

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but you, you didn't ask them

to, then sometimes you don't

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get to appeal based on that.

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Christine: And so that was filed.

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So we had this now going on.

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'cause when I first watched the recusal

motion, you know, I was still in Florida,

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I think everything that Shelly was saying

when she didn't, you know, at motion

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hour or in that order or what the GAL

was saying, which I don't bel, I'm not

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sure if she has a different kind of

background, but I wonder if they just

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thought that, you know, Abigail was gonna

just take it and be like, oh, okay, so

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you say out loud, it's not a fundraiser.

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And she wasn't gonna use her lawyer hat

to be like, Hey look, I have the internet.

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Do you know what I'm saying?

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What?

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That's a typical family law reaction.

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HB: Yeah.

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Don't expect people to look into it.

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I mean.

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I imagine, I mean, I, I love what was

attached to this motion as the exhibits.

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Yeah.

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But it doesn't look like it

was particularly hard to find.

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No, that was a two second right here.

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Google search.

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Yeah.

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We'll, we'll, we'll put

it up on the screen.

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But it, I mean, it's just,

it's pictures from Yeah.

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The actual campaign.

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The campaign published them.

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They have the invitation, I'm guessing

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Christine: they probably have

some video that shows the judge.

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Speaking.

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I don't know.

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, If you all have it, send it

to me, Kentucky, Christine,

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, HB: You know, knowing these attorneys,

, I would doubt, I would really doubt

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that they would say something like

that without having knowledge of it.

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I mean, that, that, that puts you

in some jeopardy as an attorney.

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So I have a feeling, but given the

fact that there isn't an actual

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picture in the exhibits, that's what

makes me think it might be a video.

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I don't know that I have no ac

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Christine: speculating.

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Yeah.

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HB: I'm spec, that's speculating.

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I'm also, I wanna make very clear.

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I'm also not alleging

at all that this GAL had

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Christine: anything going on.

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Any deal with the judge Agree agree.

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HB: Trying to influence

It's the court whatsoever.

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I don't want to make it sound like this

person who's running for office had any

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part in this whatsoever, other than a

judge came to her fundraising event.

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That probably shouldn't have happened.

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Well, not probably.

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It shouldn't have happened.

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At least it shouldn't have happened.

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If she was gonna stay on this

case, and now this GAL is

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kind of in the middle of this.

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But I do find it strange that

she wouldn't speak up and correct

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the judge's misstatement because

that's not a meaningless mistake.

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Christine: Judicial Canon 4.1

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says that it's the partisan, it's taking a

political stance and attending a partisan.

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I think that's too just ama

in and of itself, like judges.

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Shouldn't take partisan stances.

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They shouldn't be speaking on

behalf of an election involving

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these kind of candidates period.

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Right?

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Yeah,

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HB: yeah.

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I mean, they can, they can believe

whatever they want, they can support.

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. You know what, whatever they want.

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But if you're doing it

in a way that is public.

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Then, you know, these rules, I mean,

the rules apply anyway, but , if you

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know you're being photographed, yeah.

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Then you have to know that

people are going to see this and

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it could cause some problems.

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Christine: And what's weird to me too,

that even Melina wanted to stay on the

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case like that to me, is where it gets.

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So bizarre.

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If you've ever run for office,

it is literally so stressful.

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It is bizarrO world, it's not normal.

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I don't recommend it.

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It was the dumbest thing I've ever

done and I've done some dumb things.

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But it is, you know, and you do

wanna have sympathy for a young

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person, her first campaign.

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And just like the backstabbing

and the this and the, all of

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the politics that go into it.

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HB: Can you?

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Yeah.

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How do you do that?

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How do you what I mean, like,

so you're a GAL, you've been

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appointed and ordered by the

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Christine: court to represent this child.

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You file a motion to get withdraw.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, I think so.

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I think after this it's like a little bit

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HB: different than, you know,

a judge can just say, I'm

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Christine: refusing, or, yeah, a private

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HB: attorney can usually file a

motion to withdraw, and at least in

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Kentucky, they're not questioned about

it most of the time, and they're not.

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They're allowed to withdraw.

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I don't know.

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I

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Christine: think she could also just

say, I have a conflict, like I'm running

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for office And we have a parent that

is investigating me and that's just

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not something that I feel like I can

be unbiased about during an election

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, which is very fair.

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HB: Yeah, I would, I would.

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Yeah, I would respect the hell

out of a GAL speaking up in that.

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Christine: Yeah.

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In a case it's a setback.

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'cause they've done some work and

they, they, they serve a role.

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Someone else is gonna have to get started.

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HB: Frankly, you were given the GAL

here was given the perfect opportunity.

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Yeah, because the petitioner was

asking for a parenting coordinator,

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someone to come in anyway.

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It was, it would've been the

perfect opportunity to say,

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okay, that actually makes sense.

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It makes less sense for me to be

serving as a parenting coordinator role.

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Also.

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I think I should get out now.

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Christine: Is like when you wanna break

up with someone and then they say,

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first, I don't think this is working.

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Like they were giving you a gift.

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Like Shelly, you get

off this fucking case.

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Melina, I'm not gonna

be on this case anymore.

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like it is one of those that's,

that is family court though,

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is just like this doubling down.

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I'm in charge.

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I know everything.

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Everything I do is right.

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Literally no introspection whatsoever.

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No ability to say, whoa, I need to

have empathy or put myself in someone

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else's shoes and have a learning lesson.

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I mean, how many times have

you fucked up as a lawyer?

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Seriously,

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HB: never.

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, I was perfect all the time.

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No, I mean, honestly, if that's.

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If if you don't mess up,

you're not getting better.

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Yeah.

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But I, I think that

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this should have been something

very simple, quick, simple.

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It made total sense for a parenting

coordinator to become involved for the

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GAL to step back out of this strange role

that the an agreed order put them in.

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Yeah.

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And GALs aren't usually communication

facilitators between parents.

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That's not the role.

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And I think, I think that's a terrible.

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Place to put a GAL in.

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But that's what everyone

decided to do here.

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But there was a motion to change that.

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There was a very polite,

professional motion to recuse.

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It didn't need to become a spectacle.

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It didn't need to become personal.

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And it just across the board was

handled very poorly, I think.

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And now it's become a big issue.

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Mm-hmm.

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And I think if this motion

tells us anything, is that.

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If this 59 0 5 is not granted, then

it's gonna, this is gonna go up a level.

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Yeah.

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And

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Christine: the Supreme Court will

be petitioned for the removal.

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Mm-hmm.

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HB: And it's gonna become

even more of a spec.

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Christine: Yeah.

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the family bar is just like, you know,

they, some are fans of us, some are like,

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okay, this has gotten a little bit too

big, or the judges are retaliating against

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us and we're not even involved with you.

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You know what I mean?

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But this is just so unnecessary.

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And again, people's lives.

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So it

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HB: would've been a footnote.

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People wouldn't have brought mm-hmm.

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Anything up at all about it?

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If.

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The, the order on the initial motion

was, oh, yeah, I didn't consider that.

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Sorry.

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I need to, I need to refuse,

I need to change that.

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The, the reaction to it just has

made it something that now, I mean,

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people are talking about, lots of

people are talking about, people are

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watching what's happening in this case.

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Because it's now become a spectacle

and absolutely didn't need to be.

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Right.

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And God, I don't wanna tell y'all how

I found out about this motion and the

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reason I watched, 'cause Shelly Santry

is not a court that I typically watch.

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I think you and I have watched her once

and you were like, we did a whole thing.

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How impressed you were with her.

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Yeah.

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You know what I mean?

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I mean it's like, it's like one where

it seems like the ship's moving in

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the right direction and I don't, you

know, I just didn't see any reason to.

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Yeah.

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You know, it's, it's not where

the low hanging fruit, where the

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problems are in this division.

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So I didn't expect to

be covering it either.

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Christine: But the way I found

out about this, you couldn't.

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No one could figure it out,

and I'm not gonna tell you.

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And it wasn't leaked to me

in a way that people think.

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So this is not coming from

any of the law, any of the

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players on this case whatsoever?

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No.

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But this was just one where, again, I say

it all the time, doth protest too much.

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You know, it's like, okay, there's

something here because of just

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something, something very minute.

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And then you go down the rabbit hole.

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We're gonna be in court probably

all day on Monday, right when

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y'all are listening to this.

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And then I'll probably have to

have like a bottle of Pinot Grigio.

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So I don't know if I'll be

able to make it to stay for

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Webb's court, but we shall see.

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But over and under.

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What do you think one, Shelly's

gonna have this case called.

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What she gonna do?

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HB: I think no.

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Well, so it's judges would always

with 59, oh fives would 59,

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oh fives would always

say 10 days to respond.

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Take under submission.

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Yeah.

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So

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it wouldn't be called and argued.

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I don't know if she does that, but I think

that if she doesnt do that ordinarily

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with these, she should here or, you know,

that that would be what I would want

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to do if I were a judge, not have this

call to allow time for a response and

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then take it under submission because.

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It's a legal argument.

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Yeah.

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It's not a factual one anymore.

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It's something that can be

looked at on the pleadings.

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Doesn't require a hearing,

that was your first question.

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What is the second you think

she's gonna have it called?

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Christine: I think she'll have it called.

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I think she's gonna double down and

make, make this worse than it already is.

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HB: Hate to say that.

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That's probably true.

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I'll, I'll bet against it though.

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I'll say that she's not going

to want this called and argued

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Christine: So the pre ruling

will be taken under submission?

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HB: Yeah.

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And then seven days

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Christine: to file a response.

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10 days, something like that.

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I think

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HB: it's 10.

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Yeah.

377

I generally so I'm guessing your second

question is, do you think she'll recuse?

378

Christine: Yeah.

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HB: What do you think?

380

Hell no!

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Oh man, it's my head and my

gut are totally different, so

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I'll take the other position.

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And I will say that she will recuse,

but continue to protest that she did

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absolutely nothing wrong, but will

say something like, to keep this from

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causing more delay and more problems

for these parents and this family.

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I'll step aside, but I will maintain

that I didn't do anything wrong.

387

Christine: That's what

Ogden did in the baby case.

388

When I showed up there, she had it denied

the recusal and then I showed up there

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and then she made that little speech

that was like, well, I'm putting this

390

family first, unlike other people, which

is like, who the fuck am I, by the way?

391

I don't know.

392

I just thought that was so, I

remember being there and being like,

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HB: and I'm sure that family is really

worried about what you think since

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you have no control over their lives.

395

Right, right.

396

Yeah, yeah.

397

Whereas Ogden could just, you know,

send someone from another state

398

to come get the kid from school.

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Christine: We will be in court Monday.

400

Y'all will be listening,

Listening to this, and on the

401

next episode, we will break down.

402

We got a copy of the video.

403

It's really bad in the

Ogden court napping case.

404

I'm just gonna call it that from now on.

405

I like that.

406

Yeah.

407

Court napping.

408

So stay tuned, judge y.com.

409

We want your Ogden stories,

we want your Shelly stories.

410

We want your, I, I don't care.

411

Sometimes I call 'em by the first name.

412

Sometimes I call 'em by their last name.

413

Sometimes I call 'em judge.

414

Sometimes I don't.

415

Any member of the bar that wants to text

416

HB: no, a absolutely.

417

I think that's re that's

really, really well said.

418

Bye y'all.

419

Bye.

420

Next call.

421

We need some justice, justice, justice.

422

And I wanna ring bells in public.

423

I wanna ring bes in public nor crowd.

424

Yeah, but I To the fo Yeah.

425

I To the fo Yeah.

426

I to the fo fo teaser.