Shownotes
Episode Summary
Founder and CEO of Contain and recurring guest, Nicola Kerslake joins the show today to discuss three exciting and innovative areas of AgTech she and her team at Contain are focusing on currently. Nicola touches on a new microlearning platform they’ve launched, the importance of diversifying revenue streams and what trends she’s noticing in the overall AgTech industry.
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Key Takeaways
07:13 – Harry welcomes back Founder and CEO of Contain, Nicola Kerslake, to discuss innovative and exciting new areas of focus for Contain
13:02 – Rooted, a microlearning platform
18:46 – Trends Nicola has observed about the AgTech industry recently
21:50 – Crop diversity and shifting demands
23:45 – Contain’s growth, growth trajectory and future challenges Nicola anticipates
28:13 – The importance of diversifying revenue streams
31:48 – Solar energy, cryptocurrency and speculating on the future of capital
37:57 – Nicola’s involvement in Venture Capital and lessons she’s learned
40:40 – An ask Nicola has for the audience
42:07 – Harry thanks Nicola for joining the show and let’s listeners know where they can follow Nicola, Contain, Equipped and Rooted
Tweetable Quotes
“So, our expectation was that we would do a lot of container farms. What we found is that anything that helps to offset labor is really popular. So any kind of seeding or automatic harvesting equipment, anything along those lines goes very quickly.” (10:50) (Nicola)
“We’ll never be satisfied with where we’re at. We’re always looking three steps down the road.” (12:18) (Nicola)
“One big trend on the vendor side is European vendors wanting to do more in the U.S. The other is we do, and always have had inquiries from all over the world and so we do, on occasion, look at European deals and some parts of Asia as well. The challenge is how do we make sure that we can give them the same level of service that we could to a U.S. farmer.” (21:25) (Nicola)
“The interesting thing that we’re seeing though is that, even though the economy is obviously not doing great, AgTech and agriculture as a whole has never been hotter. Arguably, this is a really good time to actually start something because you have a shot at getting contracts that you probably wouldn’t have gotten three or four years ago.” (27:34) (Nicola)
“Any successful industry has an ecosystem around it. Our guiding principle is always, ‘How are we of service to the industry?’” (31:03) (Nicola)
“That’s something that we think about. Do you have to be the largest company to be successful?” (37:19) (Nicola)
Resources Mentioned
Contain – https://contain.ag/
Contain Instagram – https://www.instagram.com/containag/
Contain Twitter – https://twitter.com/containag
Contain LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/company/contain/
Contain’s Email – [email protected]
Equipped – https://equipped.farm/
Rooted – https://rooted.global/
Nicola’s Linkedin – https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicolakerslake/
Nicola’s Website – https://www.agshowcase.com/
Sponsor Info
Cultivatd’s Website – https://cultivatd.com/
Cultivatd’s Instagram – https://www.instagram.com/cultivatdco/
Cultivatd’s Twitter – https://twitter.com/cultivatd
Cultivatd’s Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/cultivatd/
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Mentioned in this episode:
2025 Precision Ag Report by iGrowNews
2025 Precision Ag Report by iGrowNews
Transcripts
$680 million poured into precision ag last year.
Speaker:Autonomous weeding robots dominated, and John Deere made 2 acquisitions in 3
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Speaker:farm and don't know where to begin or which technology would suit your needs,
Speaker:then reach out to the experts at Cultivated. As indoor farm brokers, they
Speaker:help connect you to the right technology and ensure your project is successful.
Speaker:Best of all, their service is free because they work on behalf of their
Speaker:partners. Visit cultivated.com to learn more. And
Speaker:that's spelled C-U-L-T-I-V-A-T-D.com,
Speaker:or click the link in the show notes. The interesting thing that we're seeing though
Speaker:is that even though the economy is obviously not doing
Speaker:great, agtech and agriculture as a whole has
Speaker:never been hotter. And so arguably this is a
Speaker:really good time to actually start something because you have a shot at
Speaker:getting contracts that you probably wouldn't have got 3, 4
Speaker:years ago, particularly if you're, you know, well networked within your local community. It's an
Speaker:Welcome to the Vertical Farming Podcast, weekly conversations
Speaker:with fascinating CEOs, founders, and agtech
Speaker:visionaries. Join us every week as we dive deep into the
Speaker:world of vertical farming with your host, Harry Duran.
Speaker:Vertical Farming Podcast Season 5, welcome back. If this is your first time
Speaker:listening, you are in the right place. This is the show where we interview fascinating
Speaker:CEOs and founders of the leading vertical farming companies from around the
Speaker:world. I'm your host, Harry Duran. Last week, in case you
Speaker:missed it, we had on founder and CEO of Vertical Futures, Jamie
Speaker:Burroughs. He's a passionate leader with extensive knowledge of the indoor
Speaker:agtech space, and we talked about his passion for health,
Speaker:life sciences, and addressing the critical issues like climate change, food
Speaker:inequalities, and population health. Make sure you check that out if you haven't already.
Speaker:This week, we welcome back Nikola Krsleki, founder and CEO of
Speaker:Contain. She joins the show today to discuss 3 exciting and
Speaker:innovative areas of agtech she and her team are working on. We learn about
Speaker:her new microlearning platform, the importance of diversifying revenue streams, and
Speaker:what trends she's noticing in the overall agtech industry. Always nice to have
Speaker:early guests returning so we can learn what they've been up to. As we wrap
Speaker:up season 5, we are opening up sponsorships for season
Speaker:6. So if you are interested in sponsoring
Speaker:this podcast, where we focus specifically on the inspiring stories of our
Speaker:founders and CEOs, We've been getting tons of great reviews
Speaker:and feedback from the show. We've got a whole slew of new
Speaker:interviews coming up for season 6. Really excited to share them with you. We started
Speaker:recording those as we speak. Reach out to me directly,
Speaker:[email protected]. This episode is brought to you by the Vertical
Speaker:Farming Weekly newsletter. Each week, our team member Noah brings you the latest and greatest
Speaker:in the world of vertical farming. Sign up today at
Speaker:verticalfarmingweekly.com. Always on the lookout for new reviews of the
Speaker:show. If you are enjoying any of the past episodes or this episode
Speaker:or the whole podcast, I'd love it if you leave a rating and a review
Speaker:at ratethispodcast.com/vfp. Nothing makes me
Speaker:happier than to read those out on future episodes. Okay, let's get into
Speaker:round 2 with Nicola. So Nicola Kerslakey, founder and CEO
Speaker:of Contain, thank you so much for joining us again for round 2 on the
Speaker:Vertical Farming Podcast. Thanks for having me. Good to be back.
Speaker:Yeah, you were saying you did a little bit of, uh, looking back, and I
Speaker:did myself as well. And, uh, May 20th, 20, I
Speaker:think, was when we had our first conversation. And I want to thank
Speaker:you publicly for jumping on the show early on. That was episode
Speaker:7. And now we're up 50 plus, I think 55, 56.
Speaker:So it's been a wild ride for us. And I appreciate you
Speaker:supporting the show in those early days. Oh no, congrats on the, on the show's
Speaker:success and good to see someone covering the industry. Yeah. So how
Speaker:have you been? Have you been doing any traveling, making it to any of the
Speaker:conferences? We have been kind of heads down getting on with
Speaker:new projects and teams bigger.
Speaker:So much has changed. It seems, you know, 2 years has been
Speaker:crazy. A lot has happened in 2 years, to say the least.
Speaker:It's a challenge when you start a show in the middle of a pandemic and
Speaker:you never know like what direction it's going to take. So I think it's been
Speaker:interesting to hear all the stories of resilience,
Speaker:people, you know, changing business models, Some people having
Speaker:success, some not. And I'm sure you've had a front row seat
Speaker:to a lot of those companies and what's been working, what's been not. So,
Speaker:I'd love to hear, you know, since then, what's been happening in the world of
Speaker:Contain. Well, so, I think the one thing when I was looking back last night
Speaker:is we have 3 new kind of product
Speaker:areas, areas of interest. I think when we chatted last, I said,
Speaker:you know, we're working on stuff that's going to be of service to the industry.
Speaker:And since then, we've been able to roll some of it out. So, that's been
Speaker:great. So we, do you want to just rattle through
Speaker:them? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's get started. Again, love to hear more about what's
Speaker:happening. Probably the biggest one is Equipt, which
Speaker:is essentially an eBay for indoor ag
Speaker:equipment. We had a number of folks coming to us and
Speaker:saying, you know, we really want to start a farm. We really want to expand
Speaker:our farm, but we either can't afford or don't want to jump
Speaker:in fully with brand new equipment. And at the same time, we were getting
Speaker:vendors coming to us saying, you know, hey, we're upgrading these guys and we're not
Speaker:sure what to do with their old lights. And
Speaker:so it seemed obvious to create a platform where folks could
Speaker:trade that equipment. And where was that idea born? Was it just something that
Speaker:internally, have you done a marketplace before? Or, you know, I'm wondering,
Speaker:because there's no shortage of ideas, obviously. And as an entrepreneur myself, I know
Speaker:that there's always like new things I want to start. But how do you make
Speaker:a decision like that to decide to put a marketplace like that together? So we
Speaker:actually started working on the idea back in 2019 when
Speaker:we were at Techstars. And we were really fortunate there to have a number of
Speaker:mentors who had done things with
Speaker:marketplaces. And so, for instance, we spoke with someone who had
Speaker:been really involved in the early days of Uber Eats, which we think of as
Speaker:this huge success. But actually what was fascinating is learning how many
Speaker:iterations they went through before they figured out, okay, this is how it's going to
Speaker:work. And then we were also fortunate that one of our team, Marilyn,
Speaker:had some experience in payment processing and in dealing with
Speaker:vendors. And we ended up getting quite close to Stripe, who I
Speaker:have to say were amazing. Okay. They really understood what we were doing
Speaker:and were willing to jump in and help us out with it. So we had
Speaker:a lot of help along the way to get that launched at the beginning of
Speaker:this year. And what's been the feedback? What's been the results so far? So
Speaker:it's been awesome. We have Matt, a new team
Speaker:member working full-time on it now. It's been, you know, as ever with these things,
Speaker:you, it goes in directions that you don't expect. So our
Speaker:expectation was that we would do a lot of container farms.
Speaker:What we've found is that, surprise, anything that helps
Speaker:to offset labor is really popular. So any kind
Speaker:of seeding equipment or automatic harvesting equipment,
Speaker:anything along those lines goes very quickly. And then the other thing that it hadn't
Speaker:occurred to us is that folks are looking for a lot of ancillary equipment
Speaker:around their grow. And so, yeah, it's been quite the journey.
Speaker:And are you seeing specific applications or usage of
Speaker:the marketplace in certain sectors or certain industries or
Speaker:certain geographies? It's really across the board, but I'd say, you know, where
Speaker:most of the interest comes on the sell side is
Speaker:folks who've either finished building their farm and then realized, oh, we've
Speaker:got a whole container full of equipment. It didn't occur to us we had.
Speaker:And/or folks who are not going to farm any longer. So, and then
Speaker:on the buy side, it's really across the board. We get calls from
Speaker:folks in Singapore saying, you know,
Speaker:can you help source us this particular piece of equipment? We're also happy to go
Speaker:source equipment for folks. So that's a service that we have on the
Speaker:site, all the way through to exactly what you'd expect, folks
Speaker:with leafy green farms who are looking to expand and have a
Speaker:timeline. Very good. Very good. And then, so how do you think, do you
Speaker:see the growth of that getting bigger? Is it, are you happy
Speaker:with where it's at now or are there other opportunities there that are untapped? I
Speaker:mean, we'll always, we'll never be satisfied with where we're at. We're always looking kind
Speaker:of 3 steps down the road. Like, what do you, I mean, like every startup,
Speaker:what do you do next? How do you expand this? What direction can you take
Speaker:this in? Yeah. So I think there's, There's both
Speaker:an expansion of the platform itself, and then there's also taking the
Speaker:platform in a couple of other directions. I'm sorry, I'm being intentionally opaque because it's
Speaker:stuff we're still working on. When do you think
Speaker:you'd be able to announce what's happening there? Because we'd like to keep tabs on
Speaker:it, and we're happy to promote it when it's news, public news. Well, and thank
Speaker:you for that. We really appreciate that. Hopefully, at some point in the next couple
Speaker:of months, we'll have some stuff to push out. Okay. So, keep folks— keep your
Speaker:eyes peeled on contain.ag to learn more. Yeah. And the
Speaker:Equip site is equip.farm. Okay. And so what else have you guys been working
Speaker:on since we last spoke? So we also launched a
Speaker:project called Rooted, which is a microlearning
Speaker:platform that helps corporate employees learn to
Speaker:grow a little of their own food at home. So the genesis of that was
Speaker:really during lockdown when folks started asking
Speaker:us, you know, how do we grow at home? Everyone all of a sudden really
Speaker:wanted their own garden, right? Which, And I don't have the first
Speaker:clue. I mean, I can just about grow cat grass. That's
Speaker:it. So this is interesting because this is a broader societal trend
Speaker:that folks want to get back in touch with being able to grow for
Speaker:themselves and being able to, to have something in their lives, particularly in this
Speaker:era of Zoom, that is not just interaction with a screen. Sure.
Speaker:And so that's really how Rooted came to be. And the way that it works
Speaker:is we typically engage with a large company we work with.
Speaker:You know, for instance, one of the largest tech companies in the world. And we
Speaker:drop ship grow kits, consumables, really everything they would need to
Speaker:start growing to their cultivators, so to their
Speaker:employees' door. And then we give them access to our platform.
Speaker:And on our platform, they learn to grow through stories, same way that— and
Speaker:that's really using microlearning techniques, which say that most of us
Speaker:learn better if we're being told a story rather than a series of steps.
Speaker:And so we— our stories are things like, how do I grow my own cocktail
Speaker:ingredients? How do I grow the hottest pepper? And you've got
Speaker:everything you need in your home to do that. Okay. And the
Speaker:stories, typically 10 to 12 episodes each, are sub-5
Speaker:minutes. And some of them are, here's how to plant
Speaker:seeds. Some of them are, you know, here's what to look for. And then
Speaker:others are the broader societal and cultural
Speaker:impact of that particular crop. So we film the stories all over the
Speaker:world. We went foraging in the woods outside
Speaker:Pennsylvania with a professional forager for our mushroom story.
Speaker:We shot in a Michelin-starred restaurant in Shanghai for another
Speaker:story. We shot in Thailand. So the
Speaker:idea is that this is using food as a
Speaker:way of unifying cultures and of unifying people and saying, hey, Just because
Speaker:you're sitting in Singapore doesn't mean you don't have something in common with someone
Speaker:sitting in London. So, and then the third piece is we have a
Speaker:social and a support aspect to this where folks can come onto the
Speaker:platform and share their stories, their photos,
Speaker:their disasters. And we have some
Speaker:plant scientists that we work with who, if folks have challenges, if they're
Speaker:having aphid problems or something, we can get them a
Speaker:response on what they should do within 48 hours or so. So yeah, so it's
Speaker:been— sorry. No, I was just gonna ask you, because the concept for Root is
Speaker:interesting. So do you work specifically with HR departments?
Speaker:And is the content available publicly? Or is the content available
Speaker:specifically for the employees of that company? Right now, the
Speaker:content is just for the employees of our clients. We
Speaker:typically work with corporate wellness, HR,
Speaker:food and beverage as well. So but yeah, that's another
Speaker:Like everything we do, that's probably going to evolve also. And
Speaker:where did the idea for that come from? I know that you said it started
Speaker:pre-COVID, and obviously with everyone on lockdown, but when did you feel that there was
Speaker:something that was going to— that was something that was needed in these companies? So,
Speaker:it was really summer 2020 that we did a
Speaker:lot of testing on various folks to get
Speaker:the format down. It started off very different, and indeed has been iterated
Speaker:since. But it was really kind of summer 2020, we said, you
Speaker:know, we should do a pilot on this. And we wrote a list of kind
Speaker:of our 5 dream clients and we said, if we can get 2 of
Speaker:these guys to sign up, then we've got something. And we stopped at number 4
Speaker:because all 4 said yes. Yeah. So at that point we realized, yeah, okay, this
Speaker:will work. And we've had amazing feedback from it. It's really one of the
Speaker:most satisfying pieces of what we do because it is actually bringing joy
Speaker:to people's lives. So we had one cultivator who said that she
Speaker:used to get up, go make a cup of coffee and sit down in front
Speaker:of Zoom. She said, now I get up, see how my plants are doing. then
Speaker:make coffee. And she says, it means I have a little bit of joy every
Speaker:morning. So it's nice to be able to bring that. Sorry. And yeah,
Speaker:so is everything self-contained? So the— obviously the— you're
Speaker:doing all the, the shooting of the videos, but all the
Speaker:equipment that people are being sent, that's all sourced from Contain as well?
Speaker:Yeah, so we source it obviously from third parties. And if anyone listening to this
Speaker:is a producer of mushroom bags, at-home grow kits,
Speaker:seeds, substrates, solution,
Speaker:nutrient solution, Always love to hear from folks. That has been
Speaker:a big challenge for us, as you can imagine, during these days of
Speaker:supply chain issues. And do you see this as an initiative that
Speaker:you'll continue specifically with companies on a one-to-one basis? Or is this
Speaker:something at some point you may have some sort of university or Growers
Speaker:University aspect to it as it expands? I don't think we do Growers
Speaker:University. But yeah, we're definitely thinking about how do we get it to more
Speaker:people. I think that's our interest. I mean, there are amazing
Speaker:university courses, as you know, from folks like University of Arizona.
Speaker:And, you know, we certainly— and, you know, folks like AmHydro, CropKing
Speaker:do great kind of professional education. So I don't know
Speaker:that that's our bag. But we're certainly interested in how do we get
Speaker:this into the hands, particularly of the next generation of farmers. And have you
Speaker:found that the initiatives with EQUIP and with Rootid are
Speaker:Growing awareness for the work you guys are doing at Contain. So
Speaker:it grows awareness. And then more importantly for us, it, if you're coming
Speaker:onto Equipt, the odds are you may need financing. Yeah. And so
Speaker:I'm curious, since we last spoke, Nicola, it's been 2 years and
Speaker:obviously the core business of what you're doing in terms of the
Speaker:leasing, the consulting, and then the insurance work, what have you
Speaker:seen? Can you talk a little bit about anything that's been happening in the industry
Speaker:trend-wise or just, you know, what your experience has been from, because of
Speaker:the perspective you have? Sure. And so, you know, definitely on the leasing side, we're
Speaker:busier than we've ever been. And I think that's a reflection of just how
Speaker:much more mature the industry is now. There was really a step change
Speaker:somewhere in, I'd say, kind of summer 2020, when
Speaker:the calls we were getting were from larger lenders, larger firms.
Speaker:And there was definitely a sense that this is no longer a time to kind
Speaker:of play around or for the industry to, to figure itself
Speaker:out, that now this was shifting to a completely different footing
Speaker:and had to be a piece of the food supply chain at this point. And
Speaker:so on leasing, I would say that we're obviously working with a much
Speaker:bigger pool of lenders than we were 2 years ago. And I, they have a
Speaker:much better understanding of the industry and of the risk associated with
Speaker:it. And that has made our lives a lot easier. The other
Speaker:thing that's made our lives easier is the, we're
Speaker:definitely seeing obviously much more equity investment into
Speaker:the sector. I think there was like just under half a billion in the
Speaker:first quarter. Things have calmed down a little bit recently, but
Speaker:that in turn has meant that you have a much better shot at getting
Speaker:lease financing. Yeah. If you're coming in with some equity
Speaker:already on the balance sheet. So, that's definitely helped us. And then the
Speaker:third factor that's been big is just the hard work that our team's put in.
Speaker:So, we're now up to over 60 vendors that we work with. Okay.
Speaker:And so how has the makeup of the company itself
Speaker:changed in terms of size, number of employees, and how it's
Speaker:grown and the pace at which you're growing? So we're definitely seeing larger
Speaker:farms, and we're definitely seeing more expansions. So we're still seeing, you know, a fair
Speaker:number of startups, but the conversations are very different
Speaker:now. It's— and they're much more credentialed as well. So we're seeing folks coming in
Speaker:saying, you know, I've got this winter lettuce contract, and I need to be up.
Speaker:by September. Okay, can you help me figure this out?
Speaker:And, you know, this is really where our experience in working with the vendors
Speaker:comes to bear, particularly with the supply chain challenges that are going on. And have
Speaker:you seen that the distribution or the
Speaker:sources in terms of geographically located where
Speaker:there's interest in your services, has that increased
Speaker:dramatically? And has that become more diverse of people from all over the globe coming
Speaker:To work with you and in terms of the partners that you work with as
Speaker:well? Yeah, so we definitely get, so I'd say, you know, one big trend on
Speaker:the vendor side is European vendors wanting to do more in the US.
Speaker:Okay. That's definitely one. The other is we do and always have had
Speaker:inquiries from all over the world. And so we do on occasion
Speaker:look at European deals now and on occasion some parts of
Speaker:Asia as well. The challenge there is how do we make
Speaker:sure that we can give them the same level of service that we could a
Speaker:US So that's something we think about a lot. And how do you
Speaker:see the growth? What have you seen so far? I mean, I imagine
Speaker:at some point you follow trends in terms of what's coming in, in terms of
Speaker:investment dollars. So what's standing out for you right now in terms of where you
Speaker:see that we're headed? So the call, and when we talk to investors all the
Speaker:time and the calls that we used to get were,
Speaker:we want a farm that has a little bit of revenue, that has
Speaker:the perfect management. And we don't get that call anymore. What
Speaker:we get now is, I don't want to do another leafy green farm.
Speaker:So, you know, insects are super hot right now. Of course, mushrooms,
Speaker:anything that's protein-related, alternate crops, we get
Speaker:asked about a lot. And then the other thing is we're finally starting to see
Speaker:branching out from folks just investing in farms to wanting to do
Speaker:tech that's around the industry. So in terms of leasing deals, not just
Speaker:specifically for the farms, but just More
Speaker:tech-specific to certain types of— Sorry, that's more on the equity
Speaker:side. For us, yeah, I would say we see more mushrooms now, and we see
Speaker:more, more diversity of crops. And so when
Speaker:you start looking at the diversity of crops, and you look at crops like mushrooms,
Speaker:I imagined there's a different skill set and a different— I imagine some
Speaker:point technology required for those initiatives. And
Speaker:so are you seeing that change in any way, the dynamic of type of
Speaker:equipment or the type of setup time that's needed to get these up and running?
Speaker:So equipment's definitely different. Yeah, I don't know about— I'm the wrong person to ask
Speaker:about the actual farming techniques and that kind of stuff. But in terms of what
Speaker:we're getting asked for, it doesn't change that much. Because the actual— I mean, you
Speaker:need a grow system, you need some lights, and you need the
Speaker:HVAC, and then probably a fairly sophisticated control system. And
Speaker:that really hasn't changed. And I don't know that it will. I think we'll see,
Speaker:you know, iterations of that. But we're not seeing anything that's like, okay,
Speaker:now all of a sudden we're, you know, growing, hanging off the ceiling or something.
Speaker:Yeah. The concepts are still the same. Yeah. So, just the, you may have answered
Speaker:this earlier, but just, I'm curious, has the size of the company changed since we
Speaker:last spoke? And is that continue, is that growth trajectory still continuing? For
Speaker:Contain, yes. So, we raised a round at the end of 2020,
Speaker:and the team's grown fairly significantly since then.
Speaker:We also, you know, we're just more mature as a, as a company.
Speaker:And then I'd say, you know, that in turn has allowed us to do some
Speaker:new things like we just introduced some data products
Speaker:because our databases are now large enough that we have sufficient
Speaker:data points to be able to do that. So the first 2— Is there anything
Speaker:you can speak of right now? Yeah, sure. So the first 2 that we've launched
Speaker:are Buzz Index, which basically looks at how often the industry is mentioned in the
Speaker:media. And that we're hoping over time we can correlate to
Speaker:investment in the sector. So that's one. And then the other
Speaker:is a stock market index. So as you're probably aware, a number
Speaker:of companies have gone by public. And so we formed that
Speaker:into an index and they're tracking that. And those 2 are both available for free
Speaker:on the Contain website, contain.ag. And we
Speaker:update them, I think, monthly and send them out to
Speaker:subscribers. And then we also have started writing briefing papers
Speaker:also, which again is really in a response to, you know, what questions are the
Speaker:team getting at the moment that we can answer more efficiently and
Speaker:disperse to more folks by doing something publicly. So we did
Speaker:one on 2021 funding, M&A, and so
Speaker:forth. And then we did a second on ESG
Speaker:in indoor agriculture, which is something investors were asking us about a lot.
Speaker:And we're trying to release those roughly once a quarter. Just depends how
Speaker:busy the team is and how easy it is to schedule interviews, as you'll know
Speaker:all about. So what do you see for yourself as
Speaker:you're leading this company into this new phase of growth? What do you think are
Speaker:some Some of the challenges you're going to face going forward? So, you
Speaker:know, the big challenge is always the speed of growth in the industry.
Speaker:Um, although it's, you know, from the outside it's growing very quickly, as I'm sure
Speaker:plenty of, of your guests have told you, day-to-day deals take a long
Speaker:time. Yeah. So that's definitely one challenge. I'd say the second
Speaker:challenge is what on earth is going to happen with the economy. Yeah. I mean,
Speaker:I don't know if you have any bets, but— No, I
Speaker:think there's people that much smarter than me that have
Speaker:guessed wrong. So just to think that I might have an answer
Speaker:is probably just not a good business to be in forecasting right
Speaker:now. Yeah. So, and similarly, we just, I don't think we've been in a
Speaker:time like this before. So, yeah. So that one is probably the second
Speaker:big challenge. How do you think of that as a leader of company and in
Speaker:terms of planning? You think you probably don't want
Speaker:to think more than 3 years out at this point because things are changing so
Speaker:dramatically. So as you think about a 12-month roadmap,
Speaker:like what are some of the key things you think you want to get accomplished
Speaker:between now and then? So I mean, I think the only thing you ever can
Speaker:do is make sure your own balance sheet looks healthy and build
Speaker:in as many options as you humanly can. And we're fortunate that we have, you
Speaker:know, diversified sources of revenue and we have diversified products and
Speaker:we're, you know, like much of the industry, we have a lot of opportunity ahead
Speaker:of us right now. A lot of folks that we can partner with, a lot
Speaker:of directions we can take stuff in, but it's going to be rocky and I've
Speaker:no idea. What direction anything's going
Speaker:to go in. And I think the other thing we're really fortunate in is that
Speaker:the team is pretty tight-knit, so that really helps. And do you
Speaker:see any, are you providing guidance to folks that are coming to you
Speaker:looking for leasing and insurance options? Because I imagine it could
Speaker:be a strike while the iron is hot moment, you know, if there's continuing to
Speaker:be funding coming in and there's still deals being made. But are, is there anything,
Speaker:any caution for folks as they start to You know, he starts to work on
Speaker:new deals? Well, so the interesting— so we definitely don't provide guidance to anyone. I
Speaker:mean, we know more than anyone else about what's gonna happen. The interesting thing
Speaker:that we're seeing though is that even though the economy is obviously
Speaker:not doing great, agtech and agriculture as a
Speaker:whole has never been hotter. And so arguably this
Speaker:is a really good time to actually start something cuz you have a
Speaker:shot at getting contracts that you probably wouldn't have got
Speaker:3, 4 years ago. So particularly if you're, you know, well
Speaker:networked within your local community, it's an interesting time, everyone's short of
Speaker:product. So I don't know that it's the worst time. I mean, again, we don't
Speaker:guide people, we're not here to make a judgment. If you want to, we're here
Speaker:to provide a service, not to say, well, this is a good idea or a
Speaker:bad idea. Yeah. And so when you think about the—
Speaker:have the diversified streams of revenue been helpful for you? Because
Speaker:it's obviously something that you were thinking about early on, and maybe foresight,
Speaker:thinking about where diversifying was probably a good idea to have.
Speaker:And so do you have enough data points right now to see that that's working
Speaker:out for you? Yeah. And I think it's really important. And we've talked to,
Speaker:there are definitely, there's a cadre of VCs in particular who
Speaker:really don't get the benefit of it because their worldview
Speaker:is you have a brilliant idea, you hammer down on that brilliant
Speaker:idea, and then you raise on the back of that. And
Speaker:that's definitely one model. That's not the model that we are using. And
Speaker:it's been really interesting. You know, early on we talked to a lot of people
Speaker:in solar and that was really where that learning came from. And
Speaker:what their opinion was, was, you know, in a growing industry where you're
Speaker:not quite sure where things are gonna shift, you need to almost hedge your bets.
Speaker:And it's been the other folks that we've talked to more recently who've been really
Speaker:interesting on this topic are folks who've been building kind of independent media
Speaker:companies. So, That's been really interesting because,
Speaker:you know, if you look at something like Barstool Sports, for instance, which is,
Speaker:you know, somewhat controversial, but an interesting business model, they
Speaker:have numerous, I mean, they're selling merchandise, they're doing
Speaker:events, they're doing whatever the heck they do with
Speaker:their stock exchange stuff. Yeah. So,
Speaker:and I'm not suggesting that we're going to replicate that in any way, but it's
Speaker:just as a business model, it's kind of interesting to see that Some of the
Speaker:more successful folks are not building stuff conventionally.
Speaker:Yeah, it's interesting to think about it from a media perspective because when people think
Speaker:of vertical farming, you know, their first thought is of the
Speaker:equipment and the farming itself, but there's a whole ecosystem that's happening. I mean,
Speaker:we just spoke about the conferences. There's no shortage of conferences
Speaker:and then they all start to sound alike at some point and they're happening all
Speaker:over the world. There's conferences in Dubai and Europe coming up later
Speaker:this year as well. And I think to, to your point, the
Speaker:Barstool Network model is interesting because
Speaker:there's, everyone is seeing what you, you know, what we're talking about here, the
Speaker:influx of investment into the space, the interest in the space. So now
Speaker:there's an education perspective and, and that's something that you're, that you're seeing
Speaker:have success with Rooted. So I think it's interesting to see
Speaker:how that plays out and how much room there is to grow there in terms
Speaker:of the media and all the education. There's, because as, as much
Speaker:as we're in it in the day-to-day and learning more now in the past few
Speaker:years than I ever knew about the industry. There's still, it's
Speaker:a closed system, not in terms of like awareness, but just that
Speaker:people know about it because you have to educate people into what vertical farming is.
Speaker:And I think it feels like there's still a lot of opportunity for education and
Speaker:growth on that side of the space. Well, I don't know if it's education
Speaker:per se. I think there's always, you know, any successful industry has an ecosystem
Speaker:around it. And so, you know, our guiding principle is always, so how are we
Speaker:of service to the industry? As I mentioned with Rootid, you know, we said, is
Speaker:this something that the world actually wants? We went out and road tested it and
Speaker:then came back to building it. I think one of the tricky balances you always
Speaker:have is you don't want to deviate off course, but at the same
Speaker:time, you have to be open to the fact that this is an industry that
Speaker:changes really quickly and that is going to be in fashion and out
Speaker:of fashion. We're going to have, you know, farms are inevitably going to go under
Speaker:once VC money gets pulled. And we just have to be kind of aware that
Speaker:that's coming. And at the same time, you know, we're not backed
Speaker:by an excess of capital. And so we're very
Speaker:cautious about, you know, how we work with folks, if that makes sense.
Speaker:Yeah. Have you seen any, based on your
Speaker:past experiences and maybe even past careers
Speaker:or, you know, past engagements with other companies, do you
Speaker:see any parallels in terms of other trends that people can look to
Speaker:that are similar to what's happening now in vertical farming and just something you know,
Speaker:that we can be aware of or be conscious of in terms of what may
Speaker:or may not happen in the future? So the one that I keep coming back
Speaker:to is solar. Yeah. I mean, if you remember that huge wave of
Speaker:investment, which was much, much bigger than what we've seen into Indo Ag, but that
Speaker:huge wave of investment, and then there was a kind of
Speaker:bloodbath. And then out of that
Speaker:actually came much stronger companies, which are much better capitalized, which were
Speaker:much more mature. And I think the thing we always think through is, well,
Speaker:are we going to have that? Is there going to be that kind of— I
Speaker:think someone wrote an article on it earlier in the year and said, you know,
Speaker:a kind of valley of despair. And I don't know, who knows? But I do
Speaker:think that, you know, how do you go from an industry where
Speaker:people are willing to put in venture capital dollars to an industry where people are
Speaker:willing to put in growth capital in significant size?
Speaker:And so I'm curious where you go to, Nicola, for information, for
Speaker:inspiration, for guidance, for
Speaker:prognostication, for just learning? Or how do you keep up
Speaker:on what's happening? Like, who's a trusted source for you? I'm the worst person in
Speaker:the world to ask this because I'm not— I mean, I listen to
Speaker:the usual stuff, The Economist podcasts and Wall Street Journal, New York Times, et cetera.
Speaker:But I'd say the people that I get the most inspiration
Speaker:from are— we have some great mentors who I talk to a
Speaker:lot. Who are off doing the most esoteric things. I mean, one of
Speaker:them I was talking to yesterday and he's super into psychedelics now,
Speaker:like crazy into it and about the potential of that whole sector.
Speaker:And so that's always inspiring. Then, you know, I have friends who are
Speaker:artists and, you know, how they're thinking about the world is
Speaker:so inspirational. I was talking with a friend in Greece the other day
Speaker:who has literally built a career out of art and is now figuring
Speaker:out like, how do you combine online and offline when it comes
Speaker:to art and is doing some just crazy
Speaker:cool stuff with that. Yeah, it's interesting to see what's happening, especially where we are
Speaker:because we're recording this in June 2022, which is
Speaker:the bear market in crypto that doesn't seem to end. And so that's
Speaker:an interesting correlation because, you know, there's, you know, when we talk about the
Speaker:things that drive the market, you know, fear and greed. And right now the fear
Speaker:index is at its, I think, all-time low with people just not having any
Speaker:confidence. You know, I think it's going to adjust and your
Speaker:guess is as good as mine as to when it's going to happen, because it
Speaker:does feel like that is the future, like some sort of crypto, some sort of
Speaker:digital currency contracts. And I'm curious, you know, if there's
Speaker:anything you dabble in or have thought about, you know, when it comes to agreements
Speaker:and leases and a lot of these typical old ways of
Speaker:doing things, agreements that, is there any opportunity for innovation in that
Speaker:space when this finally starts to tick its way back up?
Speaker:Absolutely. And if you look at the, I mean, there's a range, right, of what
Speaker:people expect from you know, the, the kind of shallow
Speaker:recession expectation that we've seen out of kind of the Fed end of the world,
Speaker:all the way through to the world's going to end and we're going to be,
Speaker:you know, it's going to be some sort of dystopian nightmare. Sure. And if we
Speaker:shift towards the, the kind of dystopian end of it and, and
Speaker:argue that, you know, this is, and heaven forbid, but this is the end of
Speaker:the dollar as the reserve currency, then I mean, the Fed's
Speaker:already signaled that they're looking at some sort of digital currency as a As
Speaker:a replacement. And I think at that point, your, the kind of contracts that you
Speaker:have with folks is going to change pretty dramatically. And then it becomes, you
Speaker:know, how intrusive does capital become into your farm?
Speaker:It's both a good and bad thing. So one of the things that
Speaker:Bitcoin gives you is the ability to, to do things semi-autonomous,
Speaker:semi-anonymously. And that clearly isn't, that clearly doesn't
Speaker:work with the leasing situation. But at the same time, what it also gives you
Speaker:is much more flexibility around, for instance, could you go in
Speaker:and correlate payments to what the farm itself is doing.
Speaker:That's interesting. And I think that's right, we're a million miles from that right now.
Speaker:Yeah. But I do think that's going to be an interesting one for the future.
Speaker:And are we going to see a situation where instead of pledging assets or
Speaker:pledging other equity, people are pledging their wallets, pledging
Speaker:their Bitcoin assets or their digital assets as a whole? I don't know, but I
Speaker:think there's a lot. Just thinking about even how you talked about your friend who
Speaker:is an artist, just the idea of artists being compensated now for, you know, in
Speaker:the NFT space for separate from
Speaker:the 10,000 pieces where it's just a JPEG, but this is actual fine
Speaker:art that's exchanging hands. And you're seeing artists now being
Speaker:compensated for something that historically they would've
Speaker:just gotten maybe a small dollar amount, and then everyone else is making the money.
Speaker:The Sothebys are making the money after the fact. So that's an interesting space to
Speaker:watch as well. Well, it's also interesting because it breaks the
Speaker:presupposition, which is so much of— and I'm sorry, I'm not hating
Speaker:on VCs, but this just happens to be something I've been thinking about recently. The,
Speaker:you know, so much of that VC model is how many users do you have,
Speaker:how many clicks do you have, how many. And if you're an artist,
Speaker:actually the higher value proposition is to say, I'm going to
Speaker:make 100 of this and I'm going to make each one individually.
Speaker:And the mere fact that I've done that is going to make them more valuable.
Speaker:And by the way, that, you know, that correlates to what you've got on the,
Speaker:the NFT side. Yeah, it makes sense. So So, I do think
Speaker:that's something that we think about is, do you have to be
Speaker:the largest company to be successful? It's almost like you have to be the
Speaker:most nimble. And again, you know, you're, I mean, sorry, I keep
Speaker:coming back to media because I know it's what you're doing. Some of the most
Speaker:successful media companies are run by 10, 12 people. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker:Very lean. Very lean. Yeah. Yeah. Because once you've
Speaker:replicated the model that works and you know how to
Speaker:maximize the use of the platform, then it's really, it's an easy
Speaker:opportunity to scale. 'Cause at that point you're just looking to grow and get more
Speaker:readers or get more listeners, whatever, whatever fits the model. Yeah. And I think
Speaker:it's a brave new world we're getting into. So as we wrap up, I wanna
Speaker:appreciate you coming back on and sharing some of the exciting things that are happening
Speaker:with Contain. But outside of the world of vertical farming, like in
Speaker:your day-to-day, what else is keeping you busy? What else have you been getting into?
Speaker:So I still have a VC side to my world. So though I'm not gonna
Speaker:talk about it too much publicly, that is really helpful
Speaker:because it, it gives me another perspective. It means you don't end up being too,
Speaker:too myopic about, about things. It's very easy to get into your own hole,
Speaker:so that helps me not do that. And then I am off to
Speaker:Vegas. Okay. On Thursday. I have a birthday on Friday, so
Speaker:I am gonna go. And for the first time in like 3 years, we can
Speaker:actually go celebrate and go do stuff and go hang out with people. So
Speaker:super excited about that as well. What learnings from the VC
Speaker:side do you find are applicable in what you're doing at
Speaker:Kontain? So, I mean, the thing that I find most helpful, I mean, there's always
Speaker:the stats and stuff, right? And who's doing which deal and all that kind of
Speaker:insider-y gossip stuff. But the more interesting thing for me is
Speaker:the mindset. And it's very interesting, like, because we talk to such a
Speaker:diversity of folks, you know, we talk to farmers who have a very
Speaker:different perspective on what's going on in the markets. You know, they're worried about fertilizer
Speaker:prices. prices and about, you know, about being able to get hold of equipment.
Speaker:And then you go talk to the VCs and they are talking
Speaker:about, you know, the valuations coming down and about, you know, how
Speaker:much dry powder they need to hold back to support their portfolio companies and
Speaker:things like that. So it's just, you know, it's realizing that there are many different
Speaker:kind of worldviews out there. But I think, you know, the most useful one
Speaker:right now is VC is going to be less available. It just is.
Speaker:Yeah. And is that, is that something that, how do you think about that moving
Speaker:forward? And is that any, does that result in you changing any
Speaker:perspectives about the deals that you look for or
Speaker:just the availability of deals? Not really. I mean, it's obviously going to, for
Speaker:contain, it doesn't really have an impact other than we do
Speaker:worry about what are people's balance sheets going to look like on
Speaker:the, on the VC side? No. I mean, VC's always had cycles. You
Speaker:just got to try to make new mistakes, not dumb mistakes. And
Speaker:are there any industries on the VC side that you see as up and coming
Speaker:that have piqued your attention? I mean, again, I have to be a little careful
Speaker:because this is all kind of covered by confidentiality. But if you look at where
Speaker:the sectors that are hot right now, it's agtech's doing very well.
Speaker:Anything crypto related was doing well. I think it's a bit
Speaker:colder now, but I think that'll come back. Sure. And then anything
Speaker:that's around efficiency in healthcare is still,
Speaker:still interesting. It's nowhere near as hot as it was, but it's still kind of
Speaker:interesting to folks. Yeah, well, definitely sectors to
Speaker:keep in mind. So anything else that's coming up for Contain
Speaker:event-wise that you want to talk about? And also just give you the opportunity, as
Speaker:obviously you know the audience for this show, is there an ask you have of
Speaker:the audience? Yes, I mean, the ask is, is always if you're interested in
Speaker:leasing, if you're interested in talking to us either on the vendor side or on
Speaker:the lender side, would always love to chat with folks. If folks have farms full
Speaker:of equipment, they— and I apologize for the noise— if folks have farms full of
Speaker:equipment that they are either looking for or looking to dispose of,
Speaker:then please either reach out to us or take a look at Equipt. Yeah. And
Speaker:then if there's a— I mean, we don't get many, you probably don't get many
Speaker:big corporate listeners, right? I don't know. It's— Maybe. Yeah. You never know. It could
Speaker:be employees from there as well. So. But if there's anyone who's interested in
Speaker:working on the microlearning side, either being interviewed for one of our stories or
Speaker:supplying mushroom bags or grow kits, always love to
Speaker:hear from them. Have you talked to the team at Smallhold? We haven't because they're
Speaker:doing something completely different, but yeah, maybe we should talk to them about mushroom bags.
Speaker:My guess is they've got much bigger things to worry about than mushroom
Speaker:bags, but yeah, this is, yeah, they're doing great work. Yeah, I had,
Speaker:uh, Andrew Carter on a couple of episodes after you back in
Speaker:2020 as well. That was a really nice conversation. So it's nice to see that
Speaker:that specific space in mushrooms is— when you think about varieties and
Speaker:opportunities there, and then even just tapping into what you talked about psychedelics, at some
Speaker:point there could be some interesting opportunities in that space as well.
Speaker:Yeah, no, definitely. Yep. Well, I want to thank you
Speaker:for coming back on and just giving us an update. A lot has happened in
Speaker:2 years, so I'm glad to see that you guys are making progress and branching
Speaker:out into a bunch of different initiatives. And obviously the space is as
Speaker:vibrant as ever, and there's a lot of still opportunities for people who
Speaker:are, you know, taking the right approach and being smart about the next deals
Speaker:they work on. And then continuing to work with folks like the team you
Speaker:have at Contain, I think is a viable option for them if they're looking to
Speaker:grow. Awesome. Thanks so much for having me, and congrats again on the success of
Speaker:the podcast. Thanks, Nicola. I appreciate it. Thanks again to Nicola for coming on the
Speaker:show and sharing her story. As always, full show notes available at verticalfarmingpodcast.com.
Speaker:I'm grateful for my guests for taking the time, an hour out of
Speaker:their day, to come and share what's happening in the world of indoor farming.
Speaker:Special thanks to our Season 5 title sponsor, Cultivated. If you are looking into a
Speaker:vertical farm and you don't know where to start or which technology would suit your
Speaker:needs, reach out to them today. Best of all, their service is free because they
Speaker:work on behalf of their partners. Learn more at cultivated.com, and that's
Speaker:spelled C-U-L-T-I-V-A-T-E-D.com. Just leave out
Speaker:that last Podcast production and marketing provided by Fullcast. Learn more at
Speaker:fullcast.co about how a podcast may be helpful
Speaker:for your business. As a reminder, if you're enjoying this show, please leave us a
Speaker:rating and a review at ratethispodcast.com/vfp. I'll be sure
Speaker:to read those out on future episodes. Okay, next week, tune in. We've got a
Speaker:conversation with Ali Danyali. He's the founder and CEO of
Speaker:Harvests, and we connected at Indoor AgTech NYC,
Speaker:And it was a pleasure to have him on the show. I'm really fascinated by
Speaker:his model, and I think you will be too. He's dubbed it
Speaker:farming as a service, which I think is super cool. So
Speaker:excited to share that with you next episode. Until we meet again, here's to your
Speaker:health. Thanks for listening. To read the full show notes for this
Speaker:episode, which includes any links mentioned in the episode, as well as
Speaker:a full show transcription, visit
Speaker:verticalfarmingpodcast.com. There, you can sign up
Speaker:for our email list to be notified when new episodes are published.
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