Funding perinatal support for all with Amy Woolston and Adele Phillips

In this week's episode of the Business of Psychology, I am delighted to bring you this interview with Dr Amy Woolston and Dr Adele Phillips from The Koala Tree. They're two clinical psychologists that set up a really inspiring social enterprise together, and I think that you're going to find their story very practically useful, as well as great inspiration. This is one for you if you've ever wanted to reach a group that can't afford to pay you in private practice.

Full show notes and a transcript of this episode are available at The Business of Psychology

Links for Amy & Adele:

Website: www.thekoalatree.co.uk

Instagram: @wearethekoalatree

Facebook: The Koala Tree

Rosie on Instagram:

@rosiegilderthorp

@thepregnancypsychologist

The highlights

• Amy and Adele tell us who they are and how they help people 00:20
• Amy and Adele talk about how they got the word out about the Koala Cuppa 06:09
• I ask how long it was between starting the Koala Cuppa to the full-service offering 09:42
• Amy and Adele discuss the challenges and successes of doing this together 14:35
• We discuss Amy and Adele’s pragmatic and sensible approach 20:54
• I ask how Amy and Adele decided to grow and add things in, and they discuss funding 26:06
• Amy and Adele share their major highlights of running The Koala Tree 38:59
• Amy and Adele give us their top tips for budding social entrepreneurs 45:44

Free Client Checklist

Are you just starting out in private practice? Feeling overwhelmed by all the stuff there is to do by any chance? Paralysed by perfectionism or procrastination? Never fear! Psychology Business School has got your back. And the good news is, there's actually not that much you need to do to run your practice safely and effectively. Download a free checklist today to find out exactly what really matters. Tick off every box and you can see your first clients with confidence that you've done everything important. Get your free copy at psychologybusinessschool.com/client-checklist 

Thank you so much for listening to the Business of Psychology podcast. I'd really appreciate it if you could take the time to subscribe, rate and review the show. It helps more mental health professionals just like you to find us, and it also means a lot to me personally when I read the reviews. Thank you in advance and we'll see you next week for another episode of practical strategy and inspiration to move your independent practice forward.

Speakers

Rosie Gilderthorp, Amy Woolston, Adele Phillips

Welcome to today's episode of the Business of Psychology. I am delighted to bring you this interview today with Dr Amy Woolston and Dr Adele Phillips from The Koala Tree. They're two clinical psychologists that set up a really inspiring social enterprise together, and I think that you're going to find their story very practically useful, as well as great inspiration. This is one for you if you've ever wanted to reach a group that can't afford to pay you in private practice. So without any more waffle from me, let's get into the interview.

Amy, Adele, lovely to have you here. Would you mind starting off by telling us a little bit about who you are and how you help people through The Koala Tree?

Yeah. So I'm Amy Woolston, a clinical psychologist. Got a background in the NHS in CAMS, and then perinatal mental health. And it got to a point in my NHS career where I just felt that it wasn't working for me and meeting my values and met Adele, and we decided that we could do it differently.

Adele, is there anything you'd like to add to that?

Yeah, I'm Adele. So I'm also a clinical psychologist, working alongside Amy. Yeah, it was really Amy's vision, I think, and approached me to think about how we could embark on this journey together. I think the biggest thing for us, we both worked together for a little while in NHS Perinatal Services, and really saw some gaps in in the service. And we saw quite a distinct need for support within perinatal mental health. Just for example, to sort of like, some of the limitations to the service, like not supporting fathers, and there being an ever increasing kind of threshold, we just saw such a great need for something else, that was a bit more flexible, maybe and accessible, and we made the leap. That's when The Koala Tree was born.

Wow. So you went straight into what feels like quite a big project. Can you say a little bit more about those early gaps that you identified and how you started to fill those?

Yeah, I think one of the, one of the big risk factors for perinatal mental health difficulties is isolation, and support. And whilst I think in the NHS Perinatal Services, there is an intention or a recognition of that, actually, when you have a service that spread across a district or a county, being able to create a sense of community is really, really hard. So I think that was really one of the, like, the foundations of The Koala Tree was to be based in the community and to have a community approach. So it's probably the very first thing we did, or we, you know, got our website, got a phone number, things like that. But the first thing we did was to set up the Koala Cuppa, which is basically a facilitated support group for parents. So we run that on a Thursday morning, parents bring their children and we, so we advertise it for people who have struggled with the transition to parenthood. So there's an understanding that people are coming because there's something that they're struggling with, we have a... well we make everybody a cup of tea or coffee and a biscuit, we have a check in, and when we just go from there, really. And that has, we've been incorporated as a CIC since December 2018. And so we started the Koala Cuppa just before that didn't we, because we weren't actually incorporated when we started, and we haven't stopped. We just kept going and kept going with that. And yeah, we've had different iterations of it, of where, where it was based, whether people have contributed towards it, but actually, we've been pretty successful in getting funding for that. So we've had National Lottery awards for all funding, so nobody has to pay to come along. And, yeah, it's a really lovely part of the week.

Yeah. And it sounds like you had a really clear vision that you wanted community to be at the heart. So you set up the thing which would achieve that in the quickest and most simplest way.

Yeah, yeah. I will never forget our first Koala Cuppa group, it must have been back in 2018. So we'd, we'd found this community based cafe in Redditch, which is where we're based, and they'd offered to give us a small kind of side room. It was probably enough to fit maybe comfortably, sort of four or five people. There was Amy and I there in anticipation of who might show up. And we, I was I took my laptop with me because I thought no one, no one will come, I'll at least take something to do. And then like just these, these mums and their babies just started showing up. And on that very first group, the room wasn't big enough, we had to say to the cafe, is it alright if we come into the cafe space, because we just... I mean we were not expecting it at all, but it was clearly something that was absolutely kind of needed and welcomed. And it's just, it's organically grown from them really. And like Amy said, it's sort of come in slightly different shapes and forms, but the core kind of everybody is welcome, you're, it's free to attend, you will, you'll, you will be welcomed. And it's a safe, safe space to come and share a little or as much as you like. That's been the kind of fundamental kind of core aim throughout the whole of the group. So.

So just staying on that Koala Cuppa idea for a little bit, how did you get the word out to those thirst mums that came to that first one?

I think we, I can't remember. I think we did, we did some social media posts. I think that was our main, our main tactic. And then because I think the difficulty was is sort of advertising yourself when you haven't got the reputation yet behind you. So I'm pretty sure at that stage, we didn't go to midwives, health visitors and say what we were doing, I think we just gently crept out there on our own didn't we. Is that your recollection Adele?

I'm trying to remember because we now work very closely with our local Homestart Charity. Were we linked up with Homestart at the beginning? I can't even remember. When the Koala Cuppa began, I'm not sure if they were part of our network at that stage. But certainly, new members of the group have kind of flowed through from our broader project with Homestart.

So that I think when we were setting up, one of the pieces of advice that I got was not to do, not to not to work in silos, find out who your local partners around you and get in touch with them. So I did that. And I went to other CICs, for advice about running a CIC. But the our most obvious ally was HomeStart. And just just serendipity, really, that they've got a lady there called Deb, who is really psychologically minded, because all HomeStarts do it slightly differently, really psychologically minded, but offering this support for mums, but realise that she, she would get to a point she knew what they need it and you'd have nowhere else to take them really. So very quickly, we built up this relationship with them. And she, she brought mums didn't she? Quite early on, she brought a group of mums to the group and they stayed. And she's done that quite a number of times. But building on from that we got underway, we got going and they in the background, were putting this bid together with the National Lotteries Building Communities Fund, I think it is. And we, we've got a five year contract with HomeStart to deliver therapy, and also run the Circle of Security group for them. And a little bit of consultation as well.

Amazing. This is such a good example of something I'm often saying to people when they come to me for coaching, that if you're starting out as a social enterprise, it's a really good idea to join up and collaborate with somebody more established for those bids. Because it is hard actually to get bids through for stuff like therapy, that's a particularly challenging area I find to to secure funding. But if you've got a bigger organisation standing alongside you, and the bid is not just you, it's it's you and them working together, that gives the funder the confidence that you're going to use those funds properly. So I think that's a really good pathway for others to follow and take on board if you've got similar ambitions to help people in that way. So how long was it between you starting the Koala Cuppa to that kind of fuller service offering?

Well, when we started the Koala Cuppa we also, we, our other sort of the... we operate as a you know, regular business, we traded income so people will pay for therapy from us and we take health insurance clients as well. So we have a flow of income to support us additionally, and we have used those profits, a small amounts profits but we've put those back in to the business with subsidising therapy or our own training, then I think it probably was about between 18 months and two years, is that right?

We're in, we've just started our fourth year of our five year National Lottery contract. So that means we started, we had the funds approved, and the project, with Homestart which is called Secure Minds, began around about the beginning of 2020. Just before the pandemic.

Wow. So really, that was quite fast to get something as big as that off the ground that quickly. That's really impressive. But I think maybe that speaks to the needs in the area for what you were providing.

Yeah, and I think it also speaks to the, the, the experience in the expertise of the manager of Homestart for, for applying, you know, for being successful as a fundraiser as well. Yeah, she's good.

And in addition to that, I mean, Amy is the main driver of the Koala Tree, and she had developed some really good, strong working relationship with Deb, who we mentioned earlier, right from the get go, really, and I think that's a big part of what made this project be so successful is the working relationship we have with their employee as an organisation.

Relationships really are key. I mean, so Adele, you're saying, Amy kind of drove those relationships? Have you got any tips you can share, Amy, on how you do that? How you build a relationship that has that strong working backbone behind it?

That's a that's a big question. And I think this is slightly is a tangent to your question. But Adele said, I've led it, I could never have done this without Adele behind me because I'm not a natural leader. I'm not I'd much prefer somebody else to be taking the lead, and I'll, you know, come along behind. So the, the just the encouragement there from a Adele just to say, yep, keep going, yeah, I agree with you, yeah, that's right, has just, it wouldn't be as it is today. So I suppose in terms of talking about relationships, the relationship that Adele and I have is, is key to this as well. And the relationships with Deb and Karen from HomeStart. I think it's really sort of, sort of, I mean, Deb's really easy to get on with, but valuing what they're doing and understanding what they're doing. And then showcasing what we can do, because I ran, when we started talking about it, I ran a Circle of Security group for them free of charge. And we had a really good uptake for it. And it just, I think that gave Deb a chance to see like, who I am as a psychologist, how I how I deliver what I do. And it built up some trust in me, you know, so it's a big thing to hand over her, her parents to somebody else. And I think that she, that was probably a big part of it is sort of developing that trust in me that I'm a safe pair of hands, essentially.

I think that makes a lot of sense. And, you know, often when we're starting out, it can be really difficult to let go of our shame enough to really show people what we can do, and to have those sort of passion fueled conversations where you find out that you share a common vision for what you would like to be out there in the world. That's really hard when you start out sometimes because I know when I started, I would find it really difficult to articulate myself, because I just kept hearing this voice in my head saying that you're not the right person to do this. There's somebody better qualified than you to be doing this. Did either of you struggle with that at all? And how did you overcome it? If you did? I can see that Adele is nodding.

I can't speak but Amy, but I suspect that we both could relate to that from from the beginning. And I think that's been one of the biggest things about doing this together. Because we've been on quite a journey. It's been an adventure with lots of successes and lots of challenges and moments where things haven't gone quite to plan, as well. And I think in those moments, it's been lovely to be able to come together and say, I feel like that went wrong because I didn't spend enough time on that grant application. I know I come to Amy, and then, oh I kind of led on that one, and we didn't get the money, I obviously didn't try hard enough or didn't give it my all or maybe I could have read more literature or maybe I didn't sell us enough, or maybe we're too expensive. Did I do the costings wrong? You know, and I think that Is that that's been I think one of our strengths really is doing this together. Because when those kind of trips and falls have happened, we sort of carry each other through those and somehow find something to pick ourselves back up and keep going.

That so lovely. And I agree, I think nothing dissolves shame, quite like having to speak it out loud and getting compassion back from someone else.

Yeah, absolutely. And, yeah, just some of those, you know, running the Koala Cuppa, it's so loose the structure, you know, it's so open, anything could come back. And it's exposing, because there's a group of parents around you witnessing what you're about to say, and just yeah, like really sort of bravely taking a step into that and being able to sort of talk it through with with Adele. And now they've got another psychologist Kelly, who runs it with me, and just to sort of like, say, did that go okay, did that sound, did that sound ok? Or like, and following up when it didn't? You know? So, yeah, lots, lots of moments of imposter syndrome and what the hell are we doing here? But also, lots of moments of real encouragement, and yeah chipping away. And I think the, what comes back from the parents who we work with is just, you know, I'm really glad I found you, I'm really glad you're doing this. One mum that we had, she moved out of the area, and she's still in touch on the WhatsApp group with, with the people that come to the group, and so there's nothing like this here, there's nothing like this here. And I think that tells you you're doing something really unique and really impactful. And that's, that's enough to keep you going.

Absolutely, yeah, you can hold on tight to that on the days when the emotional storm is really kicking in. One thing that, you know, just on a practical level, I know that people listening to this will be wondering about is the kind of risk element. So with something as loose as the Koala Cuppa, I'm assuming you didn't get people to sign a contract or anything before they come and sit down. So did you have any anxiety about that? And, you know, how do you manage the possibility of somebody coming along and maybe appearing quite unwell or there being issues that that needs to be attended to?

Yeah. I think we very much in the beginning wanted to do it differently to NHS. So we wanted it to be, you know, you don't have to sign up for it, you come if you can come. So it's an open group. So there'll be new people, and we have to kind of manage that. We've got, again, we've gone through different ways of sort of thinking about it really, haven't we Adele, but I think where we are at the moment, we just asked people to sign a registration form. If they've come like a couple of times, it looks like they're going to be coming for a while, get them to sign a registration form, and I think it just sort of says at the top, this isn't therapy, please keep it confidential. If we're worried about you will speak to you about it. And then we get them to fill in their GP details as well. So I think it's a it's a light touch approach. And then, you know, we had somebody the other week who talked about self harm. So we just sort of chatted with her at the end and said, Oh, you mentioned this, anything we can do to help? And yeah, and sort of manage it that way. And having again, having the relationship with HomeStart. Because a lot of families would be part of that, we can share it with them or their support workers, or ask HomeStart to get in touch, we can refer to HomeStart if we, if we think they need a bit of extra support. Is there anything you'd add to that Adele?

I don't think so, I think light touch is a really nice way of describing it. It really brought to mind that then some of the families, particularly the mothers that I've met when I was working in NHS perinatal services, and a lot of the fears were around them sharing something that would mean their child was going to be removed, and that was a genuine fear for women that came to that service. And it's just making me reflect now. I don't think I've had a single parent that has come to the Koala Tree with that fear. There's something different about what we're offering that enables people to engage with us in a less kind of fear based way, I think.

And what's interesting is, I think sometimes we can try and set something up with that intention. But then we become so fearful that that's then projected out and people do feel fearful because we are. And I wonder if again, that's the strength of the two of you working together on this project, that although you may have had some anxieties about it, you were able to contain that for each other, and then create that safe space for the people coming? It sounds like a very pragmatic and sensible approach.

Yeah, I think, yeah, that probably is a good way to describe it, isn't it. And with often VCSE services, they're talking about the mild to moderate population. And we went on a conference for VCSE Perinatal Services, very niche, recently. And they, and I think they really sort of the way they described it really sort of resonated with me, because actually, a lot of the people we see they're not mild to moderate, they're not, but for whatever reason, they don't meet the threshold for statutory services. And, and I think that gave me the confidence to say, yeah, we can work with this, we can manage this, because we know what we're doing, and we've got good relationships with these people, and we can kind of look after them through their risky periods, which we definitely have had with, with quite a few clients, haven't we, and building, doing risk management plans, being in touch with partners, being in touch with GPS, and just checking in with them a lot. And, you know, and being really, yeah, said, like you say, sensible and pragmatic about it, I think.

I guess that's part of being truly embedded in the community, that you have made the effort to have those relationships that give you that security that you know where to go. And I often say to people, whatever, whether they're doing social enterprise, or a really simple private practice, you can't practice independently without that network, it has to be built, you have to have those relationships in place and a really clear policy in your mind of who I'm going to contact, in what circumstances, before you see your first client. So I think that's really good advice for people, regardless of what type of project you're setting up. So thank you for sharing that, because I think that's going to be very helpful for people. So I guess, you know, you've described quite a rapid period of growth, really, how did you manage to go from providing that first kind of Koala Cuppa through to the services you're providing now? Did it mean you had to change what you were doing in other aspects of, of your practice? And how did you make those decisions?

I think we've all, we've had a vision of what we want it to look like. And we, we make sure that we come back to that regularly. So we usually have an away day, around December time where we, and Adele is really good at like, taking minutes and knowing where the minutes are, so she can check back and hold us to account on the plans we made. And so because, yeah, often you'll get like, a bit of mission drift, somebody, a phrase somebody used to me, Oh, yeah, that's what's happening to me right now, Mission Drift. So, yeah, we, we try and come back to that vision. And, and sort of pragmatically as well around like, financing it. So yeah, quite often, Adele, again, Adele, like pulls me back on that, you can't offer that free Amy, you can't, don't do it. You know, okay, I won't do that then. So we really try and sort of manage what we're doing. Because we also want to earn, you know, we want to earn a reasonable income. This is my complete job. This is what funds, you know, funds my family. So we have to be clear about what we're doing and how, how much we need to earn to do it. I think I'm going off the point now, because I think I've forgotten the rest of your question.

No, I actually think that's really helpful. So yeah, because I was thinking about, you know, how do you, how did you decide when to grow? When the amount of time you're spending in Koala Tree versus, you know, employment or other things you might have been doing? And it sounds like you're all in. Are you both kind of all in in Koala Tree, or you managing other things?

So I was yeah, that when I started, I was working as an associate for somebody else, and we really had to just weigh it up and notice when the tipping point came, and I just stopped doing any associate work and everything now came through The Koala Tree. So there was definitely a tipping point there that I had to wait for. And I can say a little bit more about the growth into other areas, but perhaps Adele would say a bit more about your...

Yes, I similarly, I was working in private practice, but just as an associate, prior to starting, sort of putting some time just for The Koal Tree. And I began just doing one day. And then again, in time, there was just such a demand for it that I now do two days with The Koala Tree, and I also have an NHS post as well.

Okay, so can you say a bit more about how you decided to grow and add things in?

Yeah, good question. Go on Amy.

Yeah, I was thinking about the dads group, particularly because that, that came from, from the the Koala Cuppa. So it, the Koala Cuppa is not for mums, but it's generally mums that, that attend. And it is because dads will come once or twice, either when they've been signed off sick with their mental health, or they're on their two weeks paternity leave, and they'll come along, and then they'll go again. And it just became sort of like really evident from that, like that dads needed a space to talk. And when, the part when mums went home and talked about it, dads are interested and you know, there's a few comments about like, why... I need something like this, I need something like this. So, so that I think, and we've done some focus groups as well, haven't we to kind of shape up what it is we're doing and how we're doing it. So with the dads group, we, it was sort of on our minds for a long time, and then we applied to Tescos to be one of their, like their local causes...

The tokens at the end of the checkout? I love those.

Yeah. So we got £1000 from them. So like, okay, let's have a go. And we thought we could run it for eight weeks, we spoke to Homestart. And they helped linked me up with a volunteer to co facilitate it with me. We put together a programme of things that we thought might work and just went for it. And it was it was brilliant. It really, I ran that, and it just, it was something different for me as well. And it really gave me a buzz. And then that came to an end. And we got a donation from one of the people who attended. So we just this week have started our second cycle. And we've had some people from the first group who've come back and we've got some new people come along. And we've got a number of grant applications in place, so that hopefully, for us to be able to run it in a more sustainable way in going forward. So that's that's one area of growth. And I think, growth, we've got lots of ideas, but it gets limited by funding. So that's the constant dilemma really, isn't it?

So I was planning today to ask you a bit more about funding, because this is often where it gets really tricky, isn't it? We have the vision, we've got the expertise, because we've been in services and seeing where the gaps are, and we have a good understanding often of what will be useful to provide, but that making that match up with the priorities of funding providers can be quite tricky. So can you share a little about where funding comes from, for your projects? And also maybe what the challenges are associated with that?

Yeah, there are plenty of challenges that for sure. We started off reasonably small. So we just researched some local kind of pots of money, like through the council. I can't think, and like for example, Tescos and CoOp do a similar kind of scheme, which are for small when I say small pots of money up to a few 1000 pounds. And we started with those as a kind of a bit of a test run really. And I would say that we initially we were very successful with those. And actually as a consequence, like for example, with CoOp, we've built a really good relationship with the local CoOp store and they often come back to us to say apply for more funding from us and they've invited us to kind of have a little stall in their in their stores and things like that. So we started off with some smaller pots of money, and in the background, Amy particularly was working with Homestart, putting the project together for Secure Minds, which is our five year National Lottery project. And that was, I mean, I was in complete disbelief, that finding was approved. And that was a huge, huge success for us, and I think probably gave us a big boost in confidence. And we manage then to also apply for the National Lottery award for all grants, which is 10,000 pounds. And that's been huge, hugely beneficial to us for running the Koala Cuppa really, so that we've been able to continue running that completely free of charge. But also, it's facilitated by two clinical psychologists at the moment. And that's been one of the things that we've felt has been really important to make the group feel safe and very much psychologically informed. And although Amy has said it's kind of a loose structure, I guess, you know, Amy and Kelly are always using their psychological skills, expertise and formulation, reflection and thinking about group dynamics to be able to hold that space and make it as safe as it is. So National Lottery have been brilliant. We did put in for quite a big pot of money, I think it might have been last year with one of the other National... I think it was Reaching Communities Project. We wanted to try and top up some of what we were offering through Secure Minds, because contract with secure minds has to offer six therapy spaces per week. And what we've found is that there's just not enough. So we have we've had a waiting list for that therapy, pretty much the project was off the ground really. And so in our mind, and HomeStart agreed, that sort of demand was outweighing capacity. And that was our kind of rationale for asking for a bit of top up. And with that application, we'll also put in for the dads group. But at that stage, we hadn't yet piloted the dads group. And understandably, National Lottery came back to us to say they couldn't fund extra therapy spaces, because we were already offering that at some level through Homestart. But they were really intrigued and interested to know more about the dads group. So that's when we decided to get the smaller pot of money through Tesco, so that we could do a pilot, because a lot of what we've learned through trial and error is that funding providers seem to like, like it if you've done your kind of research. And so a focus group, or service user feedback, or a pilot project that has some kind of outcomes, whether that's kind of data, raw data, or just quotes, comments, and stories really seem to backup an application. So that's one of, one of the things that we've learned, I think along the way, is, is what they're wanting from an application. Because Amy and I are trained as psychologists, were absolutely not trained as business people. And we're certainly not bid writers. And we are competing, of course, with a wealth of other experienced kind of bid writers or charities and CICs, who may have like a name, professional bid writer doing that application form.

Exactly, you are going up against people where that is their whole job. And I think people really need to appreciate that. If you get a knock back from a bid. It's not that it was a bad bid, often, it's just a real skill to writing it. But I love what you said about going for the small pots first, which are easier to get, and then using what you learned from that and the evidence of that provides to go for some of the bigger, more ambitious pots. Because I think what can be scary, and sounds scary to me, like even hearing you talk about it. I'm like, Wow, it's so brave to do that. It's the in those early days where you're getting those small pots, there's so little security for you. You don't know whether you're going to be paid to do this project in just six weeks time, which is a lot of anxiety and uncertainty to deal with. But then when you get one of those bigger, so five years of funding, then you know, you've got a job for the next five years. And and so often it's that first transition, that first bit where you have to do something really not knowing whether this is going to give you income or support or stability for the long term. That's the bit I think, which can be really tricky for people. So...

Yeah, it is, and then it's balancing that with your inquiries for you know, funded, self funded health insurance therapy. I really don't want to turn those down in case, but I've got this bid going in.... And it can sort of feel, I think what I'm often left with is this feeling like I'm disorganised because my workflow is inconsistent, and, you know, well, I should be doing this better, other people will be managing it better. But I think on reflection, you know, it is about this, we've put ourselves into quite an uncertain space with some of this that we're doing. And inevitably, that's going to be reflected in, in the flows of work that we do and sort of just sort of tolerating that, and, you know, is probably quite helpful. And yeah, the other thing I was gonna say, I think, like the value of money sort of changes completely once you sort of start to get into this, because when we, when we got these first pots, it's like, it's £1500 pounds from CoOp, oh my God. And then very quickly, it becomes 10,000 pounds is like, yeah, that's, that's, that's small, small pots of money, you know, we want to be going for something bigger, we need, you know, so your what, what you value, how you value money, I think changes quite dramatically as well.

I think as well, we are expensive, because we're highly qualified, we're also highly specialised. And when you look at the amount that you're applying for, and the number of beneficiaries, I can see why, you know, someone that's looking at grant application might think, Oh, that's a lot of money for someone to go through X number of sessions of therapy. And it's been hard for us, I think, particularly at the beginning, we really undersold ourselves and put in our hourly rate much lower than we should have, really, in hindsight, partly because we wanted to get the money, and we wanted to look good, and wanted to look cheap. But actually, when it comes to the practicalities of running a business, and doing what we do and doing it well and being sustainable, we have to hold on to kind of our value. And I guess I mean, I mean that in the broadest sense.

Yeah, I think that's a really important lesson because it is so tempting. And I've been in that position too where you cost something up with three psychologists involved, and you're like, oh, so that'll be at least 300 pounds per session then, and that assuming no prep. And then you cost out a six week intervention and suddenly, you're like, Wow, this isn't coming under a small pot anymore. This is quite scary. But actually, it sounds like it was valuable for you to learn to stick with those costings and and learn to sell the expertise better.

Yeah, exactly. Exactly that. Yeah. You know, because there is a there is a difference between what we're offering and peer support, for example, which, which has a huge value, and I'm not detracting from that, but that will meet a certain amount of need and not other need. And what we're doing, you know, is yeah, the cost is for a reason, I'd say. Yeah.

But we do have to be able to articulate that. And that's the tricky bit sometimes.

I was gonna say especially when you're imposters really vocalising itself internally.

Yes. And there's gonna be so many people listening nodding along with that. I think they don't help us do they. But I was just wondering, you know, it sounds like you've been through so much together with this with this project. On the kind of positive side of things, what have been the major highlights for both of you of running something like this?

I can think of one. But I don't think it's mine to say, I think it was after the dads group, Amy, when one of the one of the dads that had come to the group made quite a substantial donation. I think Amy and I both fell off our chairs.

It was texting each other. Check the bank account. It was yeah, exciting. Yeah, that that was that was was huge, because it just came from nowhere. Absolutely from nowhere. And yeah, it was really, really touched me. Yeah. So that was that was amazing. I think without sounding corny, but the highlight is going to work every day. And going, you know, feeling that the work I'm doing is having a real a real impact, which I didn't feel every day in when I worked in the NHS. And not not every session you know, not not to be too twee about it, but I do feel that we that what we're doing is is making a significant difference in the lives of the families that we work with, you know, not not just the parent, but the partner and the children as well. And that's, that's lovely to see. And with the getting the throughput of the people come to the Koala Cuppa, you know, sort of word of mouth, it's spreading. And that's, that's happening by itself. So that's, that's a real highlight.

I love that. And I think, you know, both of those are really inspiring. And I hope that if there's anybody listening, who's maybe setting up project at the moment, and in some of the challenging moments of that, you know, this is, this is what we're aiming for. And this is the the gift really, of being independent, and being able to have that flexibility to do what you know needs to be done. So thank you for sharing those. I guess I'd be remiss if I didn't also ask what have been the most difficult moments, from your perspectives in this process?

I think one of the things for me, and we have touched on it already is, is when to grow, and how to grow? And do we rely on the money, the grants being approved? Or do we do it anyway. I guess I'm just thinking, like, on a practical level, renting an office space, renting a premises, we now have two therapy rooms that we rent. And I remember, when we first took on the first small therapy room. And back, it just felt like such a leap to commit to this big cost every month. And now in hindsight, it looks like quite small. And we we're now looking into other options in terms of growth and having a bigger home, literally a bigger premises, so that we are able to grow. But it feels like it takes a lot of courage. And just kind of like we have to trust that this is, that we know we can make this work, and that we can fund it. But it's very kind of chicken and egg with the with the grants. Are we going to get it? Do we expand first, but if we don't have the premises, if we don't have the space, then we can't do the project. But if we don't have the funding, you know, and it's sort of like, where do we begin? And sometimes, yeah, just taken a lot of like, let's just go for it. And then hope for the best.

Yeah, yeah, I'd agree with that. And just I think that the huge, the huge steep learning curve of thinking like a business, which I don't, and, and it's often felt like there's this elusive framework that we don't know about that, if we did, we could apply it. And then that would make our decision making, business planning, a lot more strategic and a lot more kind of organised. But it's a real, it's a real to and fro, to and fro, you know, plan, pullback, plan, take action, plan, pullback, plan, take action. And we have asked for lots of help along the way. And people have been really generous with it, haven't they? That is just Yeah, I think that is difficult. That sort of sense, like, am I, from a business perspective, am I doing this right, really. And the other part I would say which I know, lots of people say in private practices is about working on your own. And obviously, we don't, we work together, but actually the way with rooms and stuff, we planned it so that we're not, we're not together at the same time, we used to run the Koala Cuppa together, but then we changed that so Adele could do more therapy work and, and other stuff. But it does mean you know, for a big portion of the week, I'm I am on my own, and I'd much prefer to be part of a team really. So yeah, so Adele gets bombarded with messages on NHS day starting with sorry, I know it's your NHS day, but...

Yeah, I think it's really good to acknowledge that, that, you know, even though you've come so far with it, and the project is doing so many things, you're still at this point of push and pull and you can't have everything that you want. You can't be in the same building all the time, you know, in this amazing hub of the future that we might imagine. And it might it might go to that point, but it's that constant having to check in with your vision and your values and, and how you want things to shape up as they evolve. I mean, thank you so much for sharing your story with us. I think there'll be lots of people who've been really inspired and they're now thinking about projects that they might be considering setting up, and it hopefully feeling a bit more possible hearing you talk so openly and honestly about what it's been like for you to both do that. So thank you, I really appreciate it. Just before we finish up, have you got any kind of take home piece of advice that you would give to maybe a budding social entrepreneur out there who would love to do something like this?

I think my top tip would be get a teammate, because I think as we've both said, throughout this, don't think that The Koala Tree would be The Koala Tree it is today without both Amy and I own board, and I certainly know I couldn't have done this on my own. I think that would be my top tip. And my second tip would be five years into it, we decided, let's do some training on writing bids! After some successes and some failures, let's go and actually find out if we're doing it right. I probably would have done that a few years back even though it's better late than never.

You did really well to get this approved if you hadn't done training, I'm so impressed. I'm really impressed. Because it's such an artform! I'm sure it's the expertise shining through your work, actually. Call it luck.

I suppose my only top tip would be like to do a Both/And model, you know, so that you can set up as a CIC trade as normal as people do in private practice, so you are generating some income, and then you can sort of set aside a portion of your time to do something more, not for profity, or more in line with your values without feeling conflicted about it that, you know, it's it's, it's not earning you money, or you know, it's not sustainable. So yeah, to sort of take a Both/And approach to it, really.

I love that, yes. Because that's, that's my business model, too. That's how my company operates. And often, people feel like they need to make a decision right from the beginning, okay, I'm either going to charge people or everything's going to be free. And actually, that rarely works when you're setting up from the ground up, unless you're lucky enough that you can take the leap and not earn for a while, it's it's actually a really good idea to have some what they call traded income coming in. And that is fundamentally what a CIC is designed to do.

And not only is it provided some security for us, but we also, if when there's profit from that it's enabled us to fund other bits of project work. And that's kind of what we're here for, so I think it's win win.

Yeah, absolutely. I often think that it's the security blanket. So if the grant doesn't come through in time to for the start of a new project, it might be enough that you can continue that service or keep something going that might otherwise have had to ground to a halt. So yeah, thank you for mentioning that. I think that's not talked about enough. So I think there are going to be people who really wants to go and look you up after this and see some of the fantastic stuff you're doing. Where can people find you?

So we've got a website, www.thekoalatree.co.uk. We are on Facebook and Instagram. Both of those our @wearethekoalatree. We're not a social media experts, we're not website designers, you will notice that when you're on there, but if you want to get in touch then those are the best ways to find us. Feel free to get in touch and ask questions. I think we really enjoy talking about what we do. So happy to speak to people about thoughts, questions and ideas.

Fantastic. I'll put all of those links in the show notes so that people can find you there. Well, thank you so much for your time today. I really appreciate it, and I shall be following the rest of your journey avidly.

Thanks very much Rosie. Thanks for having us.