17: A Raw Chat on Postpartum, Motherhood, & Creativity ft. Author Suzanne Yatim Aslam

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Suzanne Yatim Aslam: And so I sat

there and I tried to figure out.

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How I was going to write this.

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And then I realized why I was

like, why am I writing this though?

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I'm writing this because I'm trying

to say all the things I wasn't allowed

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to say, or didn't feel safe saying,

or didn't feel comfortable saying.

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Holly Ostrout: Welcome to the Book

Coach Chronicles, a podcast for

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writers of books, people who want to

be writers of books, and y'all in the

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back who've been thinking about it, but

don't yet consider yourself a writer.

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We chat about all things authorhood,

from the creative process and making

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your writing life easy and enjoyable, to

actually getting your book out into the

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world and the power it has to change it.

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I'm your host, Holly Ostrout,

and together we're going to bring

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creativity, sustainability, and

delight to writing your book.

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So let's make this year

the season of your book.

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Welcome back today.

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I'm really excited to talk

to suzanne Yatim Aslam.

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Suzanne is a former actress and

Miss Arab USA turned writer.

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Her dark comedy Post Pardon Me

is now an Amazon bestseller and a

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reader's favorite with five stars.

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She's on a mission to help mamas

feel supported in one of the most

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confusing times of their lives.

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Suzanne, welcome.

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Suzanne Yatim Aslam: Thank you, Holly.

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I'm excited to talk to you.

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Holly Ostrout: I am really

excited to talk to you too.

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When we first connected, we talked

about our experiences a little bit.

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We didn't go into too much detail and

I'd love to do that here about our

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experiences after having our first baby.

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So you experienced postpartum depression

and I experienced postpartum anxiety,

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which I didn't even know was a thing

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Suzanne Yatim Aslam: mm

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Holly Ostrout: I had never

heard of before I had a baby.

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And,

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What I found out after having her five

years ago was that things that you would

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think would be really common knowledge

among Mothers and, and doctors and

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society in general are not talked about

and there's got to be a reason for that

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is, would you like to talk about that?

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Suzanne Yatim Aslam: Oh, it's one of those

things where like, I wish I didn't have

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to write my book, you know, because people

wouldn't, they're like, what's the point?

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We, we know everything,

it's fine, but it's not.

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It's so there, there's a very

specific script that we run with.

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With mothers, particularly parents

in general, but mothers in particular

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about how you're supposed to feel.

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A child is a blessing, and if you feel

anything other than gratitude for that

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child, then you are a terrible mother,

and it's something that we just just

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innately feel because of the expectations

we put on ourselves and the assumption

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that we are born with the like biological.

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Understanding of how to mother that

coupled with the fact that people see us.

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It's sort of as like a, like a Virgin

Mary, like the Madonna, just this

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like one note individual rather than

a person who's very dynamic with an

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extensive array of emotions and those

emotions get intensified during that

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That time we feel things that most people

don't experience, or maybe perhaps in

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a truncated time line, because, the

onset of motherhood so instantaneously.

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So we're in a lot of ways, not very,

we're not allowed to be dynamic and we

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put that upon ourselves and we allow

other people to put that upon us.

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And it's not something that

we've really broken from.

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So when we have feelings that go

against that, we shame ourselves for it.

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Holly Ostrout: Shame was a huge part of

my early motherhood months because it

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seemed like everything was going wrong.

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My baby wouldn't latch,

didn't have enough milk.

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I was having intrusive thoughts and

I wanted to be creative and work

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and I couldn't, and I also wanted

to be with my baby all the time.

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And I couldn't do that either.

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So I felt like.

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pulled in so many different

directions with no support.

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And and that definitely created

a sense of isolation in me, which

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I think is really countered to

what mothers are supposed to feel.

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Suzanne Yatim Aslam: Yeah.

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The isolation thing is pretty common.

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We do it to ourselves, but it's

sort of an expected response

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because you don't feel comfortable

going, Oh my God, this is crazy.

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I can't do this.

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The only response that you have

is to just shut up and go inward.

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So it's a, it's a common

practice that, that we have.

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And that's, it's, it's really not fair,

but to your point, we, as mothers, I

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mean, we're supposed to have that, you

know, they say the, the what's the phrase?

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It takes a village to raise a child.

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Well, I firmly believe that

that village is for you and me.

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I mean, the kids, like you have, we

have to take care of the caretaker.

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So we're going to take care of the baby.

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That's what we do, and we,

we're going to figure that out,

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but who's taking care of us?

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And that's, that's

where we need our tribe.

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And we're not really, especially

in this country, we're not

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very good at having a tribe.

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Holly Ostrout: That's such an important

point that you make, that the village

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should be for us as the mothers.

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Is there something that you found

in your process of when you wrote

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your book of how mothers can

create that village for themselves?

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Suzanne Yatim Aslam: So funny.

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The point of my book was twofold.

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It was one to be like, Hey,

I got, I understand you.

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Like, let me hold your hand while

we walk through this together.

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Because I mean, people read my book

and they're like, Oh, you could

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take out your name and put in mine.

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And that's my story.

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So this is very common.

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I'm not special here.

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So the idea of feeling like you're not

alone in this is really, really great.

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But secondly, it's also giving, I'm trying

to give you the courage to ask for help

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because you're the one that has to do it.

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Somebody else isn't going to come

and be like, I'm going to just do

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this all for you and take care of

it unless you advocate for yourself,

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then other people can step in and

be like, okay, how can I help you?

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And let me take this off of your plate.

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But until you actually say I need

help, I'm not, okay, this is too much.

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People are just going to assume

because we see women as this mothers

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is this one note individual in that

one note being, I'm just this perfect

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pristine mother that you've got this.

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So asking for help is really, really

hard and sort of demanding that

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village is really, really hard.

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And it sucks because I'm giving you work.

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I'm saying, Hey, like you

have to go and find it.

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Okay, off you go.

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Like, that's a really big ask.

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I get that.

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But without it, we, I mean, we're

humans are not solitary creatures.

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We're communal.

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And I think we forget that.

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And we forget that with the moms,

particularly because she locks

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herself in her room to nurse the baby.

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Now she's like away in

the corner by herself.

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Because we're ashamed of our bodies

and we're, and we're sexualized at the

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same time and, and it's just so, it's

so horrific that we don't feel safe.

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So we have to go into a corner and hide

while everybody else is getting together.

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We're off in the corner alone.

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And that, that symbolism says a lot.

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So you have, you have to do it yourself.

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Which sorry,

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Holly Ostrout: As with anything, though,

you have to make, you have to take the

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steps if you want the, the experience

to change, but you're right that it

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is almost an impossible position to be

in you, as you said, are sexualized,

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you're isolated because they don't want

you to be sexualized, but you have to

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feed your baby and things like that.

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It's, it is very impossible to

navigate for many first time

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mothers and even second, third time

mothers, because it doesn't change.

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We're kind of competing with our internal

needs and what society expects of us,

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which are completely different things.

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And I know that you've also worked as

an actress before, and I wonder how

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your experience working as an actress

has influenced the way that you maybe

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responded to some of these things.

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Suzanne Yatim Aslam: To

just postpartum depression?

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Holly Ostrout: And, and the

village and society's expectations.

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Suzanne Yatim Aslam: Well, it's so

interesting because I was an actor.

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I kind of viewed life

through the lens of film.

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So, for example, I had.

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A scare when I was about 10 weeks with my

first son and, you know, it was a really

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awful pain and I thought I was having

a miscarriage and on the drive to the

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hospital it was, it was a long drive.

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It was like 30 minutes.

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My pain started to go away and I was like,

did it go away because I lost the baby

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and like that's done now or was it just

a false alarm and I was in pain and now

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I'm no longer in pain and I didn't know.

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And I, I caught myself thinking,

okay, if I lost the baby, how

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am I supposed to react to this?

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Like, what is the appropriate response?

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And then I realized that there

is, I have created, and I don't

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think it's just me as an actress.

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I think we do this

through because of media.

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I have created an amalgamation.

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Of like every single movie or TV show

I've seen where somebody has a miscarriage

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because their response is always the same.

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Like they fall to the floor and they

cry and they grieve and all this stuff.

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But I, at that point did not feel very

connected to the baby, which is a, it was

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also kind of concerning, but I was like,

Oh, but I don't know if I would do that.

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No, but I'm supposed to do

that because that's the script.

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That's the story that is the only

route you can take, is you have

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to do the whole devastated thing.

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And I just didn't know if I was

actually going to be devastated.

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And I, I, I, I tussled with that

on the drive and just realized,

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Oh my God, I'm trying to have

a response and not a real one.

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I'm trying to have a response based on

how I expect this to go because we've

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seen movies where life events occur.

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Like nobody actually, when their water

breaks, do they rush to the hospital

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and all their friends go with them.

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That's not a thing, but I

didn't know that wasn't a thing.

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I had no idea.

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I thought like, as soon as your

water breaks, you go, you go, you

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immediately, the baby's on his

way, you know, that's not true, but

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that's how the movies showed us.

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So I just really, really lived my life.

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through that lens.

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And it was quite an awakening after

having kids to realize this was

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like the most real time in my life.

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And it really is nothing like

the, the idealized life that

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I like to live through film.

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Holly Ostrout: That's a really

interesting thing to notice about that.

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It must have been kind of jarring

to come from a film background and

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realize that nothing is really like the

films almost like you had to put on a

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performance in order to have a baby.

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And I think that is something

that a lot of women feel in

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many areas of their lives.

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I work a lot with creative entrepreneurs

and they often feel like they have to put

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on a performance just to run a business.

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And they often feel like

there is a script to follow.

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And if they're not following

the script, they're doing it

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wrong, but that's not the case.

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Suzanne Yatim Aslam:

Yeah, it's not the case.

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But that's.

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Doing things differently is scary.

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What if I didn't cry?

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What if I did miscarry and I didn't cry?

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That makes me a bad person.

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Do I want to be a bad person?

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Do I want you to think that I'm just

this monster who doesn't have any

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feeling feelings towards my child?

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And you know, and then like

all that, that goes with it.

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So I'm assuming you're going

to shame me and judge me.

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So I'm just going to go

ahead and do it myself.

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Yeah.

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Holly Ostrout: Oh gosh.

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I'm assuming you're going to

shame me and judge me, so I'm

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just going to do it myself.

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That is such a common response

in so many people that I meet.

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Something that we probably need to

work on as a society to not do, because

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there will always be somebody who

looks at you and says, you know, I

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know more about your business than you

do, and I'm going to judge you for it.

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But there's, it's so much smaller

as a ratio than you would think,

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than you make yourself believe.

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Suzanne Yatim Aslam: Yeah, and like,

for example, the, the Miss Arab thing.

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When I won lots of support, lots of love.

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It was great, but you know, you have

some trolls and I let those trolls.

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Be the ones to ruin it for me.

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They ruined it for me.

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Like I had two days where

I felt really great.

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And then I got onto social

media and they were saying

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really horrible things about me.

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And it, that deflated me and they're,

I don't even know who they are.

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They're just people on the internet.

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They're faceless, nameless,

vile human beings.

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And I let them have so much power and take

away all of my joy from that experience.

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But that was my fault.

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I did that.

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I did that, but it's almost

like you, you just expect it.

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It's weird.

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Holly Ostrout: It is.

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Yeah.

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And I think we've all experienced

trolls and there is, and there's so

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much advice on how to deal with trolls.

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And, and yet when we actually

experience our own trolls,

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it feels very difficult to.

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To to actually put that into

practice something you mentioned

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earlier really stuck out to me.

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You talked about going inward journey

to motherhood and I wonder how

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this is practice of going inward.

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How you may have applied this in

other areas of your life as well.

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And, and what you learned

from going inward.

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So would you like to talk

about that for a few moments?

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Hey friends, I hope

you're enjoying the show.

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If you're ready to write your book and

you're looking for tools, resources, or

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of that@booksandalchemy.com where you

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can grab my free writing ritual creator.

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Join one of my super special

memberships or a schedule a chat

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to talk about book coaching.

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Again, it's all@booksandalchemy.com.

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Oh, and be sure to subscribe to the

podcast, like go ahead and do it now.

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And now back to the show.

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Suzanne Yatim Aslam: Well, when we

talked about going inward it was I

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think we were saying like, I couldn't

talk about it to the outside world.

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So I just went in and in sort of

in an, in an isolated fashion.

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Right.

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So there are really terrible things

about that, but you can use it to

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your advantage if you choose to.

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I don't think we always do that

well, and I don't think that I'm

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the shining example of doing that.

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But when you're having, especially

creative people, if you're having those

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really big feelings and you feel really

alone, It's actually a really interesting

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time to process it and write it all down

and kind of look at it from an observer

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perspective, because think about like,

do you know, like if I had to write my

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book now, my kids, eight, my kids are

eight and six, but if I had to like

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put myself in that state of postpartum

depression now, it would be really hard.

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I mean, I could probably get there if

I like played the right music and, you

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know, looked at photos of my kids when

they were little and like, remember that.

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But if I were like living, so I'm

going through like a really hard time

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right now with some family stuff.

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And I'm writing down what I'm experiencing

with that family stuff in a way that

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it's so fresh, but I'm also looking

at it like in one way, I'm, I'm, I'm

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sitting in it and I'm feeling it, but

then at the same time, it can also

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look at it from like an observation

deck is what I've been calling it.

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And when you're looking at it from

the observation deck, it's just such

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an interesting connection because

you're looking at you, but you're also,

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you're also you, if that makes sense.

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Have you ever read the untethered soul?

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Holly Ostrout: No, what's that about?

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Suzanne Yatim Aslam: It's

a really interesting book.

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I feel like I have it somewhere behind me.

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It's a really good book that explains

how your thoughts are not you.

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So one of the things I talk about with

postpartum depression, when I tell

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mamas, I'm like, listen, if there's one

thing from this podcast that you take

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away, Your depression is lying to you,

but you're like, well, how can that be?

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Cause those are, those are my

own thoughts, but they're not.

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So like there's you, and then there's

the you that's watching you and

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that's all happening in your head.

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Right.

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So going inward and like experiencing

those thoughts and being able to like live

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in that and feel it and really understand

and allow that to stem your creativity.

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The way I think your creativity gets

stemmed is when you're the observer.

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So like you can feel it in one

sense, but then like observe it.

299

: 00:15:40

So you can actually like.

300

: 00:15:41

Pull it apart and write it down

and, and, and assess how it,

301

: 00:15:46

how it's kind of coming about.

302

: 00:15:47

Does that make sense?

303

: 00:15:48

Holly Ostrout: Yeah.

304

: 00:15:49

It actually reminds me of NLP

neuro linguistic programming.

305

: 00:15:53

Have you heard of it?

306

: 00:15:55

Suzanne Yatim Aslam: No.

307

: 00:15:56

Holly Ostrout: It's, I don't know

quite how to explain it because

308

: 00:15:59

I'm certainly no master NLP

practitioner, but I have used it.

309

: 00:16:02

It's a really good effect.

310

: 00:16:03

And in NLP.

311

: 00:16:06

One of the exercises that you can

do, I think it might be the most

312

: 00:16:09

famous one from NLP, is looking

at the movie screen of an event.

313

: 00:16:14

Or a fear or a phobia, for example, and

you kind of picture yourself in a movie

314

: 00:16:20

theater, you're watching a screen this

image in your head playing over and over.

315

: 00:16:28

And it could be something that has

happened that you have trauma over,

316

: 00:16:31

or it could be something that you were

just catastrophizing in your head.

317

: 00:16:35

And you.

318

: 00:16:36

You see it and then you kind

of pull yourself back and you

319

: 00:16:39

look at yourself watching it.

320

: 00:16:41

Yes.

321

: 00:16:42

And so you're observing the observer and

then you watch the screen get smaller and

322

: 00:16:46

smaller and it does actually help these

The emotion around such kind of events or

323

: 00:16:53

fears or past traumas kind of disappear.

324

: 00:16:56

It helps it just minimize

it until it's not really

325

: 00:16:59

something that you feel anymore.

326

: 00:17:00

That's really interesting

that you use that as well.

327

: 00:17:04

And I liked what you said about

your depression is lying to you.

328

: 00:17:07

Suzanne Yatim Aslam: Yes, that is not you.

329

: 00:17:10

Holly Ostrout: That is really interesting.

330

: 00:17:11

And I bet it applies for your

anxiety is lying to you too.

331

: 00:17:15

Suzanne Yatim Aslam: Oh, 100%.

332

: 00:17:17

Oh my God.

333

: 00:17:18

Yeah.

334

: 00:17:19

Cause all anxiety is fear of the future.

335

: 00:17:21

Right.

336

: 00:17:22

So it's like this thing that

hasn't happened, but you're

337

: 00:17:23

convinced it's going to happen.

338

: 00:17:24

And so you just like start

spinning this web and it's so

339

: 00:17:27

sickening, like really sickening.

340

: 00:17:28

Like in your stomach, you feel like

you're going to throw up all the time.

341

: 00:17:30

Right.

342

: 00:17:31

Yeah.

343

: 00:17:31

And so you're just like, you're

just writing scripts over here.

344

: 00:17:34

Just telling yourself all sorts of tales.

345

: 00:17:36

You're just spinning tales.

346

: 00:17:38

And that's all lies, but it just like,

okay, depression, anxiety are, are beasts.

347

: 00:17:44

They are very, very real things, but it's

so interesting how difficult it is to get

348

: 00:17:49

out of it because once your body becomes

familiar with something, it likes it.

349

: 00:17:53

So even if it's something

bad, it still likes it.

350

: 00:17:57

It's because your brain is meant to

survive, not thrive is what they say.

351

: 00:18:00

So you need something.

352

: 00:18:01

Your brain likes comfort.

353

: 00:18:03

So if depression is comfortable or

anxiety, like constantly thinking

354

: 00:18:06

about this as comfortable, then

you're just going to keep doing

355

: 00:18:08

it because your body's like, Oh,

I need, I need something familiar.

356

: 00:18:11

This is like, this is good.

357

: 00:18:12

And so that, like that cycle

just becomes so, so vicious.

358

: 00:18:17

Holly Ostrout: Yeah.

359

: 00:18:18

Habits are safe to your brain.

360

: 00:18:20

Suzanne Yatim Aslam: Yes.

361

: 00:18:21

Yes.

362

: 00:18:21

I'm going to write that down.

363

: 00:18:22

I like that.

364

: 00:18:22

Habits are safe.

365

: 00:18:24

Holly Ostrout: So, I want to

transition a little bit and

366

: 00:18:28

talk to you about your book.

367

: 00:18:30

And the writing process that you went

through, I know that when you spoke

368

: 00:18:33

earlier about the process for writing

and, you know, you're going through some

369

: 00:18:37

experiences with your family right now,

some hard times, but if you tried to get

370

: 00:18:40

into writing your book about postpartum

now, it would be more difficult because

371

: 00:18:44

you're not in that space right now.

372

: 00:18:46

Which I'm very glad for.

373

: 00:18:47

I'm glad you're not in the space right

now, but also grateful that you were able

374

: 00:18:51

to use that space when you were in it

productively and create something that's

375

: 00:18:55

going to be and has been helpful for so

many women experiencing the same things.

376

: 00:19:02

Can you talk about how you were able

to work through those experiences to be

377

: 00:19:07

creative enough to put that together?

378

: 00:19:09

Suzanne Yatim Aslam: So when I wrote

it, I had just gotten out of, out of it.

379

: 00:19:13

And I remember being really angry.

380

: 00:19:16

I was really angry that I felt lied

to, you know, by other mamas who

381

: 00:19:21

acted like everything was fine or

just wanted to put on this show.

382

: 00:19:25

Even small stuff like people

are like, Oh, you won't get

383

: 00:19:27

your period if you're nursing.

384

: 00:19:29

Well, that's just a big fat lie.

385

: 00:19:30

Like, why are we telling each other this?

386

: 00:19:31

It happened to one lady one time.

387

: 00:19:33

And now that's just

like, that's the thing.

388

: 00:19:36

So I just remember being just so

angry and I finally got out of it

389

: 00:19:38

and I was like, why did it take me,

because it was four years between like,

390

: 00:19:41

between being my first kid and then

coming out of it with my second kid.

391

: 00:19:46

So yeah, it's a lot.

392

: 00:19:49

So I remember just being really

angry and then not being able to act.

393

: 00:19:52

It was really hard to do film or

commercials or whatever with the kids.

394

: 00:19:57

And so now I'm like, I

need a creative outlet.

395

: 00:20:00

And I'm really angry.

396

: 00:20:02

So I started writing and

I had been writing scripts

397

: 00:20:05

with my husband before this.

398

: 00:20:07

So I knew how to like, you

know, how to write in that way.

399

: 00:20:10

But when I sat down to write

the story, I was like, well,

400

: 00:20:13

it's not going to be a script.

401

: 00:20:14

It's going to be a book, which

screwed things up for me because

402

: 00:20:17

I just started writing and I

wrote 30 pages and it was so vile.

403

: 00:20:21

It was just awful.

404

: 00:20:22

It was just so, Well, it was so gross.

405

: 00:20:26

So, and if anybody's never written a

book and they want to write and they're

406

: 00:20:28

starting to write and they're like, this

is disgusting, good, get it all out.

407

: 00:20:32

Like get rid of all of the disgusting,

but if it stays in your head, it's just,

408

: 00:20:35

you're never going to get anywhere.

409

: 00:20:37

So I was 30, it was 30 pages

and it was all I could think of.

410

: 00:20:40

Like I wrote everything and I

was done in 30 pages and I was

411

: 00:20:43

like, well, this isn't, this is a

pamphlet and a, not a very good one.

412

: 00:20:47

And so I sat there and

I tried to figure out.

413

: 00:20:49

How I was going to write this.

414

: 00:20:52

And then I realized why I was

like, why am I writing this though?

415

: 00:20:57

I'm writing this because I'm trying

to say all the things I wasn't allowed

416

: 00:21:01

to say, or didn't feel safe saying, or

didn't feel comfortable saying, what is

417

: 00:21:05

the best format for that journal entries?

418

: 00:21:09

If I let you in inside of my head,

if I gave you my journal right

419

: 00:21:13

now, it was like, here, read this.

420

: 00:21:15

That would be the safest place, right?

421

: 00:21:16

Your journal is your safest place

to actually say how you really feel.

422

: 00:21:20

So I, these are made up journal entries.

423

: 00:21:22

That I created.

424

: 00:21:23

So I got to use my creativity in that

way and like my anger fueling that

425

: 00:21:27

creativity to create these stories.

426

: 00:21:29

So there's dialogue in it

which is so much fun for me.

427

: 00:21:32

I love writing dialogue and and

the, what I did is I was like, okay,

428

: 00:21:38

well, if there, if there's journal

entries, that means like, I have to

429

: 00:21:41

say, okay, here's what happened today.

430

: 00:21:43

Right.

431

: 00:21:43

And then you like reflect on

what you were feeling that day.

432

: 00:21:46

So I went back through my

first year with my son, Sammy.

433

: 00:21:48

And I looked at our calendar and

I just went through the calendar

434

: 00:21:52

from 2015 and I was like, okay, oh

yeah, I had that event that one day.

435

: 00:21:57

And then I reflected on that

event and what I was feeling.

436

: 00:22:00

And I remember being really mad that I

met a pregnant woman and she was so happy.

437

: 00:22:06

And I was so mad at her for

getting pregnant because she

438

: 00:22:08

was the coolest girl I know.

439

: 00:22:09

And she just ruined her

life by getting pregnant.

440

: 00:22:11

Is she crazy?

441

: 00:22:12

I remember just being like, I remember

being like, Just illogically furious

442

: 00:22:16

with this dumb, dumb dummy for getting

pregnant and being joyful about it.

443

: 00:22:21

And and so even just sort of like going

through that timeline helped sort of spur

444

: 00:22:26

those, those it helped just kind of bring

me back to those moments that otherwise

445

: 00:22:30

if I just sat there in a silo by myself

would have been a bit difficult to do.

446

: 00:22:35

Holly Ostrout: That's so

interesting that you said that

447

: 00:22:37

you used your calendar to go back.

448

: 00:22:38

That's a really excellent A lot of

memoirists use that method as well.

449

: 00:22:44

And I also like what you said about

using your anger to fulfill your

450

: 00:22:47

creativity, because we often think

of anger as such a negative emotion,

451

: 00:22:52

but it's, it's a neutral emotion.

452

: 00:22:54

It's what you do with your anger

that makes it negative or positive

453

: 00:22:57

and using your anger to write this

book clearly was a much more positive

454

: 00:23:03

outlet for your anger than, than.

455

: 00:23:06

Many other options you could have taken.

456

: 00:23:09

Suzanne Yatim Aslam: Yeah, yeah.

457

: 00:23:10

Anger, anger is a, what do they call it?

458

: 00:23:12

They call it secondary emotion.

459

: 00:23:14

Anger being the easier pill to

swallow because it's so much easier

460

: 00:23:19

to be angry than like heartbroken.

461

: 00:23:21

If somebody breaks up with

you, you're really sad.

462

: 00:23:24

Well, then that's immediately,

what are we, what do we go?

463

: 00:23:26

Well, you know, he's a piece

of garbage anyway, who cares?

464

: 00:23:28

Like we immediately want to go to

that cause that's so much safer.

465

: 00:23:31

So what's the backstory behind the anger?

466

: 00:23:34

Is such as such an interesting thing.

467

: 00:23:36

Like I felt, I felt lonely.

468

: 00:23:37

I felt confused.

469

: 00:23:39

I felt betrayed by people who told

me that motherhood was wonderful.

470

: 00:23:43

And then if I found,

I felt like it wasn't.

471

: 00:23:45

And so there's just all these like

other emotions and it's just so nicely

472

: 00:23:48

wrapped inside of anger and it's just

such a easier, it's just so safe.

473

: 00:23:53

It's so safe to be angry.

474

: 00:23:54

Yeah.

475

: 00:23:56

Holly Ostrout: I also had plenty of

mothers who have made me think that

476

: 00:23:59

pregnancy and motherhood was going to

be very different from what it was.

477

: 00:24:03

And it's almost like we, some of us feel

obligated to kind of continue the ruse.

478

: 00:24:09

Suzanne Yatim Aslam: Yes.

479

: 00:24:11

Holly Ostrout: I didn't get going here.

480

: 00:24:12

I certainly didn't lose the

weight from breastfeeding.

481

: 00:24:16

And my and I was so sick for so long.

482

: 00:24:21

Couldn't even walk the last

10 weeks of my pregnancy.

483

: 00:24:23

My hips were hurting so badly.

484

: 00:24:25

And that is not an exaggeration.

485

: 00:24:27

That is literal.

486

: 00:24:28

So yeah, my experiences are nothing like

what's in TV or what's in the films.

487

: 00:24:34

Suzanne Yatim Aslam: Yeah, but

then we have to preface it or

488

: 00:24:38

Or by, by saying like, I love my

baby, but he's driving me crazy.

489

: 00:24:42

Like, we have to just because otherwise am

I gonna assume you don't love your baby.

490

: 00:24:46

You know, like the, we have

to always shroud it in.

491

: 00:24:50

What we expect you to the other

person, to, to ex what the, we

492

: 00:24:54

expect them to expect us to say,

493

: 00:24:57

Holly Ostrout: I wish we could just all

assume that everybody loves their babies.

494

: 00:25:01

Suzanne Yatim Aslam: Yeah.

495

: 00:25:01

Holly Ostrout: And we can be honest.

496

: 00:25:02

Suzanne Yatim Aslam: I, I

think that is the assumption.

497

: 00:25:04

So why do we walk around

assuming that that's not.

498

: 00:25:07

It doesn't make any sense.

499

: 00:25:09

Holly Ostrout: We're putting the

pressures of assumed shame on ourselves

500

: 00:25:13

before anybody else puts it on us.

501

: 00:25:15

Suzanne Yatim Aslam: Mm hmm.

502

: 00:25:16

Assumed shame.

503

: 00:25:18

Holly Ostrout: So, I would like

to ask you share one tip that

504

: 00:25:22

you would share with anybody else

who was trying to write a book.

505

: 00:25:26

Suzanne Yatim Aslam: Know your audience.

506

: 00:25:27

That's a really good one.

507

: 00:25:29

If I was writing it for me, then I

would just write it in my journal.

508

: 00:25:33

. And just call it a day, but I'm

not, I'm not writing it for me.

509

: 00:25:36

I'm writing it for mamas.

510

: 00:25:37

So as much as it's really important to

be authentic and say, you know, what

511

: 00:25:41

you want to say and be you, you kind of

have to be, you have to be crafty with

512

: 00:25:46

it and, and angle it in a way that like,

I can't have inside jokes, essentially.

513

: 00:25:51

You know, like things that only pertain

to me that does, it just doesn't work.

514

: 00:25:55

So Really, really knowing your

audience is really important.

515

: 00:25:57

We used to do this thing in a scene

study class where you'd have a script.

516

: 00:26:03

And you're like, you're just like looking

at a page of dialogue and then each

517

: 00:26:06

dialogue you go, okay What is the actual

meaning behind what this line means?

518

: 00:26:11

So somebody would say I'm just so angry

right now And then you're what really what

519

: 00:26:16

they're saying and then in parentheses

like, you know You're studying the

520

: 00:26:18

character and you're like, okay really

what she she means is I feel alone.

521

: 00:26:21

I have no one to talk to And so each

line, and they would always tell us this,

522

: 00:26:27

they're like, the writer put that line

in there specifically, the writer didn't

523

: 00:26:30

make a mistake, that's not a throwaway

line, like each line is so, so valuable,

524

: 00:26:34

so what does this all mean, and what is

it that they're really trying to say and

525

: 00:26:38

so I felt like that really applied to my,

to writing my book, because I needed each

526

: 00:26:42

line to carry the weight that I wanted it

to carry, so the person on the other end

527

: 00:26:46

of the book could feel what it was that

I was trying to get them to feel that's

528

: 00:26:51

why you have to really know your audience.

529

: 00:26:53

Holly Ostrout: Audience is one of the

things that will sink a book faster

530

: 00:26:57

than anything else, and it's, when I

work with clients, it is one of the

531

: 00:27:00

very first things we work on before

we start planning out chapters.

532

: 00:27:03

Suzanne Yatim Aslam: Really?

533

: 00:27:04

Holly Ostrout: Yes, before, before

you start writing any chapters

534

: 00:27:08

or any paragraphs or anything, it

is one of the very first things.

535

: 00:27:12

you have to nail down.

536

: 00:27:13

Because if you don't know who

you're writing to, then you

537

: 00:27:15

don't know how to talk to them.

538

: 00:27:17

Suzanne Yatim Aslam: Okay.

539

: 00:27:18

You see how amazing that was?

540

: 00:27:19

That was just like, I just said

that off the top of my head.

541

: 00:27:21

And the fact that that's what

you, the first thing that you tell

542

: 00:27:24

people, are you listening, everyone?

543

: 00:27:26

This is apparently really important.

544

: 00:27:29

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

545

: 00:27:31

That's why I remember when I

was doing my book, I was like

546

: 00:27:33

trying to get my book out there.

547

: 00:27:35

They're like who is it written for?

548

: 00:27:37

And you want to say like, oh,

anybody would enjoy this because

549

: 00:27:41

you're trying to get like as many

people to like it as possible.

550

: 00:27:43

And I remember people being like,

that's the worst thing that you can say.

551

: 00:27:47

It's better to be like from the

ages, like 20 women, 25 to 40

552

: 00:27:50

or, you know, whatever it is.

553

: 00:27:52

Young dads, cause that's,

that's read my book too.

554

: 00:27:55

Yeah, it helps them get inside the head

of the lady that they think is now crazy.

555

: 00:27:59

Holly Ostrout: That's funny.

556

: 00:28:00

Yeah, yeah, my husband definitely

put up with a lot from me and,

557

: 00:28:04

Suzanne Yatim Aslam:

Yeah, give him my book.

558

: 00:28:06

Holly Ostrout: Fortunately, I don't

have postpartum anxiety anymore, but

559

: 00:28:09

I'm definitely going to be giving

it to other people because I do have

560

: 00:28:13

some acquaintances and friends who

are pregnant right now and I think

561

: 00:28:16

that we're afraid to say anything.

562

: 00:28:19

We're afraid to ask, so give the book to

your pregnant friends before they need it.

563

: 00:28:25

And with that in mind, where

can everybody find you online?

564

: 00:28:31

Suzanne Yatim Aslam: I live on

565

: 00:28:31

Instagram.

566

: 00:28:33

Oh my book is on Amazon.

567

: 00:28:35

It's called Post Pardon Me.

568

: 00:28:37

And you can always

contact me via Instagram.

569

: 00:28:40

It's the only place I live.

570

: 00:28:41

Don't make me go to

any other apps, please.

571

: 00:28:44

That's it.

572

: 00:28:45

Holly Ostrout: Okay.

573

: 00:28:46

Well, we will put your Instagram handle

in the show notes and we'll put a link

574

: 00:28:48

to your book in the show notes as well.

575

: 00:28:50

Suzanne Yatim Aslam: Awesome.

576

: 00:28:51

Holly Ostrout: And I like to ask

everybody, if you're comfortable, what

577

: 00:28:54

one thing you are grateful for this week?

578

: 00:28:57

Suzanne Yatim Aslam: So you asked me

this before we started rolling and I was

579

: 00:29:00

like, God, I need to think about this.

580

: 00:29:02

And I realized I'm grateful for strangers.

581

: 00:29:04

I have met the most interesting

people in the last month or two.

582

: 00:29:08

I've sort of let myself be a little bit

more open, but I'm a writer, and I'm

583

: 00:29:12

whatever I am, and so I'm really good at

being like That's what I'm looking for.

584

: 00:29:16

Like brooding, like I can easily brood

and be like, nobody understands me.

585

: 00:29:20

And, you know, and so I've recently

sort of pulled myself out of

586

: 00:29:23

that, that sort of like nihilistic

place I was hanging out in.

587

: 00:29:26

And when I did that, I started

meeting the most interesting people

588

: 00:29:30

and connecting with people in ways

that I never allowed myself before.

589

: 00:29:34

And those strangers are

becoming not strangers.

590

: 00:29:38

And it's just been such a gift that the

universe has sought fit to bestow upon me.

591

: 00:29:45

I decided to be a little bit more

open and I was rewarded for it.

592

: 00:29:48

So strangers.

593

: 00:29:51

Holly Ostrout: I love that.

594

: 00:29:52

That is definitely a

unique gratitude response.

595

: 00:29:55

And it may be my favorite so far.

596

: 00:29:58

Suzanne Yatim Aslam:

Aw, that makes me happy.

597

: 00:30:01

Holly Ostrout: Well, thank you so much for

coming on to chat with me today, Suzanne.

598

: 00:30:04

Suzanne Yatim Aslam: Thanks, Holly.

599

: 00:30:04

It was fun talking to you.

600

: 00:30:06

Holly Ostrout: Thank you

so much for listening.

601

: 00:30:08

Don't forget to subscribe to the

podcast, and if you're feeling like

602

: 00:30:11

it's a good day for good karma, please

take a moment to leave a quick review.

603

: 00:30:15

It tells the robots that my existence

matters, and according to all

604

: 00:30:19

the personality typing systems,

external validation sustains me.

605

: 00:30:24

So have the best day, and write that book.

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