Sonic Sensation: Made Music Studio’s Joel Beckerman

Brian: 00:00:00

John, we're back.

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John: We are back.

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Brian: How you doing?

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John: Well fed from Thanksgiving.

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Brian: Oh, can you believe

: 2024

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John: Prefer not to think about it.

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Brian: Whoever thought we'd get to 2025?

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John: Who thought we'd

still be podcasting?

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Brian: I had somebody tell me that

somebody referred to the year: 2100

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People are talking about it already.

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John: So I had a moment of, oh crap,

recently on that point, where I realized

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that if my son lives to his grandmother's

ent age, he will see the year: 2100

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Brian: Oh my God.

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John: Huh.

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Brian: Thank God I'll be dead.

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John: Oh, the world will be over.

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Brian: Indeed.

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John: All right.

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On that cheery note, let's,

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Brian: On that,

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John: in.

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Brian: on that promising note, let's talk

about something a little more interesting.

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So, you know, the holiday

shopping season is now in swing.

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We just had Black Friday and

Cyber Monday, and everybody's

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getting ready for the holidays.

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So I thought it would be fun to talk

about a You and I actually just worked on

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John: Yes, sir.

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Brian: that enabled us to really

dig into some holiday trends

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and holiday shopping trends.

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And, and we get to really look at the

full scope of how people are shopping and

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buying things during the holiday season.

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And, into what people have bought the

last few years and, and hopefully it

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can help brands predict what people

are going to buy moving forward.

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So,

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John: And we, and we should say

that this was, this was based on a

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client that has access to billions

of actual shopper data points.

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So really a fascinating ability

to dig into where people

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are spending their money.

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Brian: yeah, totally.

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One of the stats we came across

from a, from a different source,

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Adobe was actually predicting

that this year will be the biggest

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shop holiday shopping season ever.

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And predicting that

consumers would spend 240

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John: with a B.

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Brian: Yeah.

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Online.

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John: you know, Brian, I'm no math major,

but that's almost a quarter trillion.

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Sheesh.

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Brian: Maybe you should have been John.

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John: I mean, I should have been.

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I did that pretty quickly, didn't I?

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Brian: Yeah.

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So, so let's get into some of

these nuggets before we talk

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to a really interesting guest.

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So one of the things that really jumped

out to us as we were kind of going

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through the data and, and coming up

with some ideas of how to present some

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of these insights and specifically we

were really looking at shopping trends

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through Amazon, Walmart, and Target, the

big retailers and and what some of these

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consumers do, not just people that buy

products there, what else are they doing?

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one of the interesting things we

really came across, which I think.

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Is a kind of a major alert for CPG

brands is, the private label brands

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that Amazon target and Walmart are

selling to consumers and the volume

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that they're actually selling and

taking away from potential CPG brands.

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So home goods, which is a category of, you

know, durable items at home, things like

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furnishings and beddings and different

things you might have in your house.

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, John, what would you guess would be

the the percentage of total items

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purchased on these private label

brands against all home home goods?

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John: Yeah.

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Well, well, I would have guessed

lower than what it actually is.

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'cause I do know that it, 'cause

we had that data, it's 36%.

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But I would not have guessed that because

if I am thinking about going into a store

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like a Walmart or a Target and looking

to buy sheets or something, or pillows,

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it wouldn't dawn on me that, there's a

really good chance, the thing I'm gonna

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buy is their brand, their store brand.

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Brian: Yeah, they've done a

really good job of presenting

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these products like, Yeah.

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John: I bet most people don't even

know that you're buying a store

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brand, like, because they've branded

them all, they've got so many

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different names on these things.

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Brian: so many different names

and, and packaged in a way that

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you just have absolutely no idea.

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And they've done a good job of it.

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And the products are usually good.

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They've made them better.

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So, you know, if you're, if you

have a product and you're bringing

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it into one of the big box stores,

know that you're fighting against

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them as much as other competition.

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So they're creating their own products

to beat you on their shelves,

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which is already an uphill battle.

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So.

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John: totally.

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So, so that's the durable items.

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Rip through the next three categories,

where store brands are dominating.

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Brian: So the other domination areas

we were seeing or at least where

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they're getting a lot of a lot of

play are, are home essentials, which

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is more around, you know, cleaning

products and other consumable items,

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so the home essentials was 25% where

private label brands food is 24%.

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And, and apparel is 21%.

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So you know, that's a pretty good chunk

of sales with these private label brands.

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So we've really found that fascinating

and the growing trend there.

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John: Yeah, yeah, the aforementioned

son might be able to go to

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college only because most of

his clothes were from Target.

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By target brands back in the day.

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Thanks.

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So here's a quick question for you, Brian.

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You know, knowing that so many

food items, almost a quarter of the

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food purchases, are store brands.

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Do you have a favorite white labeled

food product who does who does a

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Brian: Who does a good store,

you know, I, I've, I, I actually

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really like store brand pretzels,

which I never thought I'd like,

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John: look at that.

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Brian: good salt to pretzel ratio.

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So I'm a fan of the store brand pretzels.

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And if you can get that right, I

feel like you can get anything right.

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John: Interesting.

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Brian: my litmus test,

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John: It's a good litmus test.

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This, this could be a

whole podcast by the way.

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There is a fascinating ecosystem

around recreating branded food

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products and making them be

pretty much the same formulation.

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Brian: Oh, absolutely.

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And real fast one other thing for other

shoppers out there with it being the

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holiday season, Aldi has a better holiday

pretzel than they do the rest of the year.

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John: what the,

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Brian: The store brand pretzel,

and it's a fascinating pretzel.

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I don't know why they don't just

sell it as the pretzel throughout

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the year, but it's a better pretzel.

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So go out and get your pretzels while you

can, because they fly off the shelves.

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John: Brought to you

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Brian: I just bought, I just

bought four bags the other day.

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John: About that.

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I, I never would have thought

of this, but I've been looking

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for a reason to go to Aldi.

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You just gave me one.

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Brian: There you go.

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John: All right.

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My answer, by the way, would

be pretty much the entire

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lineup of Trader Joe's cookies.

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I don't think they miss a beat on those.

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Alright, so the other big nugget that

I think jumped out to us , is this

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idea of how differently retailers

perform during big promotional season.

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So, the one thing, the real obvious

thing we noticed was that looking at

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day by day purchases across those power

three of Amazon, Target, and Walmart,

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Amazon's done an amazing job creating

its own holiday with Prime Days.

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Like, wow.

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It's covered in the news, right?

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You see it?

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Brian: Yeah.

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Yeah.

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And other brands are trying

to trail onto their own, the

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holiday that Amazon created.

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So, you know, they had a, they

had a fall prime day, which

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John: Yep.

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Added a

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Brian: new to us and they're almost

trying to just create their, a

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new black Friday for themselves.

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John: So, so what that did is Prime

Days since: 2021

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37 percent increase over kind of the

average rest of this shopping year days.

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So really big jump on those Prime Days.

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And then, I don't know about you, but I

was surprised to learn that that didn't

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do a damn thing in terms of kind of

blocking Walmart or Target on those days.

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Brian: Wasn't even a dent.

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John: Yeah, no, they still

sell as much as they always do.

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Which, P.

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S., is more.

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A lot more.

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As big a juggernaut as Amazon has

become and appears to be, Walmart

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and Target still sell more every day.

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Brian: Yeah.

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That's a, that's an interesting nugget

that we were able to pull out on that.

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John: Now, Prime Day did

Close the gap a little bit.

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So their average cart value was

like $49.40, average cart value

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on prime day that's really close to

what Target spent sells on average,

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which is an average cart of 50 bucks.

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And Walmart average cart value is $69.22.

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So, you know, they're still moving

plenty of merch, even on Prime Day.

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Brian: Yeah.

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And, you know, as they continue,

Amazon continues to try to get

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deeper into the food market.

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It'll be interesting to watch some of

that because they're really expanding,

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their food into, into the, into the

app, but also all this, you know,

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their own brick and mortar stores and

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John: Yeah, oh yeah,

big, good point, yeah.

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Amazon's doing a great job moving

electronics during the holidays.

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So that was the other

thing that jumped out.

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They, they sell almost three

times as many electronics items.

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So that's one area where, you know,

even though their total, total cart size

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is smaller, they're doing really well.

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On electronics.

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And then, as you know, no surprise,

Walmart's really dominating food and we

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saw a pretty cool nugget that last year.

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Target crushed apparel.

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Brian: was that all for you

buying stuff for your son?

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John: No, he's out of the, , store

brand target, , apparel or, or any

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tar any apparel purchase at Target.

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I'm sure that's somehow not

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Brian: not cool anymore.

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John: probably not cool enough for him.

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Brian: Nice.

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All right.

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Well good stuff.

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Why don't we get into our

interesting guests we have here.

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I'm loving this topic.

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John: Yeah, I'm excited to

introduce our guest Joel Beckerman.

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, he's an award winning composer,

producer, arranger, and author even.

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And he's the founder of Made Music

Studio, which is a strategic music

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and sound studio in New York City.

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Joel and his team have created

original scores for more than 50.

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TV series and specials, including

Anthony Bourdain's No Reservations,

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CBS Evening News, CBS This Morning,

Entertainment Tonight, ESPN's 30 for

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30, and even the Super Bowl on NBC.

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Along the way, Joel has collaborated

with talent that ranges from John Legend

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to Morgan Freeman, to OK Go and Will.

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i.

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am, and even I would argue the greatest

film composer of our time, John Williams.

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But you know us, Brian.

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We're going to bring it

back to marketing, right?

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Brian: Let's do it.

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John: That's because Joel's Made

Music Studio is also at the top

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of the Sonic branding field.

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Now, Brian, coming into

this conversation with Joel.

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Were you very aware of kind of like

the idea of Sonic branding as a

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big part of the branding toolkit?

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Brian: I was not.

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I mean, you kind of know it's there,

but don't really know it's there.

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John: Yeah, we take it for granted.

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Like, I mean, most brands do

something, but and, and some of them

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are really consistent over years.

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But man, it's, it's not something that

was like top of mind, but it is for Joel.

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And his work can be found in

really signature Sonic identities

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for some global giants, including

AT& T, IMAX, Hulu, and Disney.

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In 2015, Joel even wrote a book,

The Sonic Boom, How Sound Transforms

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the Way We Think, Feel, and Buy.

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which espouses what he calls sonic

humanism, the power of sound to

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make our lives better and simpler.

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And Brian, who doesn't want their

life to be better and simpler?

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Brian: Amen.

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John: All right, well, Joel,

welcome to Snap Decisions.

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We are thrilled to have you here.

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What an honor.

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Your, your career is so distinguished

and what you do is so distinct

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that we are excited to talk to you.

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Thanks again for making time.

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Joel: Well, thank you, John and Brian.

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This is super, super fun.

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John: Yeah.

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Brian: Thanks for us.

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John: So, so let's get started with

maybe you explaining to our listeners

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a little bit about what sonic branding

is and what your company does.

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We'd love to hear along the way, some of

the examples of the types of assignments

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that you and made music studio takes on.

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Well, let me just kind of

zoom back for a second.

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Cause this, we approach this really

is like more like a human from a

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human perspective, first and foremost.

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So I wrote a book called the

Sonic Boom, which basically about

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the role of sound in your life.

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So whether or not you realize it,

every single moment of your life

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is scored by music and sound.

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And it's always there.

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It's guiding your choices.

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It's changing your mood in an instant.

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And You know, we don't need

to be taught this stuff.

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We're kind of wired.

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We're wired for it.

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And, you know, there's really a direct

connection, not just in brands, but

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also just overall and experiences

that if you love a sound, you know,

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the sound and experience, you're 86%.

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More likely to want to have that

experience again, and the inverse is

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true, where if you have a really bad

audio experience in association with

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something, you're 86 percent likely to not

want to have that experience ever again.

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So really kind of come from the human

standpoint, and it's like, okay, how

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can we bring those truths that we

have in terms of human experience

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to the work of building brands?

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We think of sonic branding kind of through

this broad lens, like the strategic

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use of music and sound build brands.

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You know, I think a lot of times

people get very focused on sonic logos,

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which is one of the things we do.

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So lemme let me talk about what,

sonic logos are, if that's okay.

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Yeah, please do.

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A lot of what we do here is we try to make

kind of marketing topics more accessible

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to people who might not be marketers,

but have an interest in the way.

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Brands position themselves , so

yeah, go for it.

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Joel: yeah.

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So, I mean, everyone knows

like McDonald's, but Right.

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They've been.

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They've been hammering

that in the nicest way.

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For I don't know what, 25, 30 years,

and they've been super consistent

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about it, which makes it an enormously

valuable brand asset for them.

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And, you know, it shows up everywhere,

you know, generally in advertising whether

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it's, you know, radio or television.

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I think it now shows up in

some of their social content.

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So.

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A lot of times would, you know, people

would think about, okay, well, that's,

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that's really kind of a mnemonic for them.

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It's you could call it a jingle.

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It's in that it's a short version

of, you know, of the theme.

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A lot of times, you know, people

would kind of, you know, consider it a

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mnemonic as well, or like Intel Inside.

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You've heard that a million times.

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You know, now there are, you know, Liberty

insurance, Liberty, Liberty, Liberty.

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So I don't necessarily

think of that as a jingle.

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I think of it more as like a Sonic logo.

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So, you know, we did, for instance,

the Sonic logo for AT& T, which

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they've been using everywhere.

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You know, for what, nine years now.

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And what's kind of interesting is, is

the, the formulation of these things

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is great at the end of advertising.

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It's great, you know, hearing

the sound against a visual and it

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reinforces the visual, reinforces the

sound, which reinforces the visual.

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So now you have a multi

sensory experience.

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Which we all know just from research

and just our own human experience

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makes things that much more sticky.

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Sonic logos also, you know, I

call it the ham sandwich factor.

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Like if you're in the kitchen and you're

making a ham sandwich and not even

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looking at the TV and you hear that sonic

logo, it's like, Oh, you know, whether

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it's consciously or subconsciously, you

know, you, you might all of a sudden

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you want to have McDonald's get in

the car and Drive out to McDonald's.

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So that, that's kind of the

basic the basics of a sonic logo.

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What's super interesting even though

it has all of this research behind it

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: 00:14:36

about how valuable it is to the brand

and to brand building, it's amazing how

321

: 00:14:41

many brands have not yet taken advantage

of that that as a tool in the toolbox.

322

: 00:14:47

And the flip side is there are, you

know, there are some great examples,

323

: 00:14:51

things that, you know, super successful.

324

: 00:14:53

And then there are a lot of

things which it's like, Oh,

325

: 00:14:55

sonic logos, let's check the box.

326

: 00:14:58

So generally I, what I say to people is

you, you need to put the same level of

327

: 00:15:03

rigor and the same level of emotional,

you know, what's the emotional connection

328

: 00:15:08

like that you do into a visual identity.

329

: 00:15:11

So if you're just kind of like

doing something that's more

330

: 00:15:14

executional for a spot or whatever,

it is kind of checking a box.

331

: 00:15:18

And in general, our experiences,

those things don't last more than

332

: 00:15:22

13 weeks because they're not really

centered in the brand or centered in

333

: 00:15:27

what a particular ad campaign needs.

334

: 00:15:30

John: I like, I like the comparison

to, you know, the amount of energy

335

: 00:15:33

and investment and research and

thought you'd put into doing a visual

336

: 00:15:36

identity, because certainly brands can

spend a lot of money and time there.

337

: 00:15:40

I'm just curious, when you're doing,

let's, let's keep it, let's limit

338

: 00:15:43

it to the idea of the Sonic logo.

339

: 00:15:45

Like the examples you just provided,

how many options are you likely to

340

: 00:15:50

be generating in the process and how

many you likely to show a client,

341

: 00:15:55

just real quick, curious to know,

like, what's the process look like?

342

: 00:15:58

Joel: Okay.

343

: 00:15:59

So that's a scary, it's a scary,

344

: 00:16:01

John: sure.

345

: 00:16:01

I'm sure.

346

: 00:16:02

Brian: Talk about a ham sandwich.

347

: 00:16:03

John: Yeah.

348

: 00:16:04

Yeah.

349

: 00:16:04

Brian and I like to imagine what was

it like to be in the, in the room and

350

: 00:16:08

things get pitched and how much did

we see versus how much you created

351

: 00:16:11

in the first place to get there?

352

: 00:16:13

Joel: So I'll just like the dirty little

secret is if we're producing less, it

353

: 00:16:17

means that we did a really good job up

front in terms of we do these sonic mood

354

: 00:16:21

board sessions, which are very much like.

355

: 00:16:23

Picking colors out of a color, you

know, color swatch book or you know,

356

: 00:16:27

you know, there's a lot of other

sort of things we do in marketing.

357

: 00:16:30

They're very intuitive.

358

: 00:16:32

So so we'll talk about the brand.

359

: 00:16:34

We'll get a brand brief.

360

: 00:16:35

We'll, you know, give people, I mean,

almost invariably people are coming

361

: 00:16:39

to us and saying, look, we're in the

middle of a brand transformation.

362

: 00:16:41

What's what can sound

do to help us with this?

363

: 00:16:44

So So if we do a good job with these

listening sessions, sonic mood board

364

: 00:16:49

sessions, we're taking all that

information in and we're playing examples

365

: 00:16:53

of things out on the world and saying,

okay, well, how does that make you feel?

366

: 00:16:57

It's like, you don't need to be

able to look, you don't need to play

367

: 00:16:59

guitar, or you don't need to like,

you know, know every you know, Led

368

: 00:17:02

Zeppelin song to be able to do this.

369

: 00:17:04

It really has to do with,

how does it make you feel?

370

: 00:17:07

John: That's great.

371

: 00:17:07

Great.

372

: 00:17:07

That's great.

373

: 00:17:08

Simple criteria.

374

: 00:17:09

Stop thinking so hard.

375

: 00:17:10

How do you feel?

376

: 00:17:11

Joel: totally, because you know,

we're all consumers as well.

377

: 00:17:15

Right.

378

: 00:17:15

Even, and it's easy, actually, it's

easier in a lot of ways to take a

379

: 00:17:19

half a step back from your brand

in music and sound than it is if

380

: 00:17:23

you're doing a visual identity.

381

: 00:17:24

So, in general, people say, you know,

like, oh my, oh my God, this is like

382

: 00:17:28

the most fun meeting I've ever had in

my life because it's really just about

383

: 00:17:32

listening and sort of talking about

it and the emotional component of it.

384

: 00:17:35

So if we do a good job on that.

385

: 00:17:37

Now we have really a common language.

386

: 00:17:39

We've developed a language that, you

know, you have the brand language and

387

: 00:17:43

you have the music and sound language.

388

: 00:17:45

So now we can go back and kind of,

you know bring all the alchemy to it.

389

: 00:17:50

And usually I mean, let's just be

honest, this is an iterative process.

390

: 00:17:55

So sometimes we might create eight or 10

and it's like, Oh yeah, we, we kicked it.

391

: 00:18:00

This is great.

392

: 00:18:01

Let's just show it to the

clients for a first round.

393

: 00:18:03

Sometimes we might create 40 things

before we're happy before we feel like

394

: 00:18:08

we've captured something and, you know,

again, people are really focused on

395

: 00:18:12

the sonic logos, which is what shows

up at the end of the advertising.

396

: 00:18:15

However, you know, if you're, if you're

doing it right, you're creating something

397

: 00:18:21

that can show up in any touch point.

398

: 00:18:23

So, you know, we did something

for the Pillsbury dough boy.

399

: 00:18:27

So you got the lap.

400

: 00:18:28

Now there's a Sonic logo that just

came out recently and it showed up.

401

: 00:18:32

You know, in the middle of the stadium

in a little break between you know,

402

: 00:18:36

between innings of a baseball game.

403

: 00:18:38

It's like, okay, that's how

they're supposed to use it.

404

: 00:18:41

So really what gets you to that point

of coming to something iconic cause

405

: 00:18:45

in, in that specific example, there's

an underscore, which is a theme.

406

: 00:18:49

So if you think about a theme from a movie

or a theme from a television show, it

407

: 00:18:53

gives you kind of a sense of the story.

408

: 00:18:56

So if we're doing the theme, we're

doing that You know, and the sonic logo

409

: 00:18:59

becomes part of that, then hopefully

that helps us get a handle on it and

410

: 00:19:04

helps clients get a handle on it.

411

: 00:19:06

We should always be listening to Sonic

Logos in isolation, but if we have the

412

: 00:19:11

story, the musical story that's attached

to it, it just, it just becomes that much

413

: 00:19:15

more resonant and much more a sense of,

you know, we're trying to create music and

414

: 00:19:19

sound that's iconic and that's enduring.

415

: 00:19:22

That's gonna be around a really

long time, not just something that's

416

: 00:19:24

going to show up for 30 years.

417

: 00:19:26

So it's a long process but you know,

when you get it, when you nail it.

418

: 00:19:30

It's super, it's super fun

and it's super exciting.

419

: 00:19:32

Brian: The best, the best processes I've

seen are when, you know, it is difficult

420

: 00:19:37

because a client agency relationship will

be like, you know, I'm hiring this agency.

421

: 00:19:43

I want to see something that's complete.

422

: 00:19:44

But at the same time, it's like, you

know, you try to put something in a

423

: 00:19:47

state where people can react to, and

it might not be fully complete, but

424

: 00:19:51

if you can get the right feedback,

You don't necessarily have like wasted

425

: 00:19:55

all the time on creating something.

426

: 00:19:56

That's what you would consider complete.

427

: 00:19:58

Cause you know, that they're going to

have feedback but at the same time, they

428

: 00:20:01

want to see something fully finished.

429

: 00:20:02

So there's definitely a dance there.

430

: 00:20:03

And when you get it right, it's great.

431

: 00:20:05

John: Yes.

432

: 00:20:05

You mean that you mean that mood

stage, Brian, where it's kind of

433

: 00:20:08

like, are you getting the right feel?

434

: 00:20:09

Brian: And, you know, and also

like, you know, maybe needs a

435

: 00:20:12

little bit more of this and a

little bit less of that or whatever.

436

: 00:20:15

So do you find Joel that Brands

are you educating them on, on

437

: 00:20:20

how they can use these things?

438

: 00:20:22

, do they even know how to

fully use these things?

439

: 00:20:24

Joel: You know there are some marketers

that have like, you know, really,

440

: 00:20:27

really deep experience in this, but

the vast majority of people don't yet.

441

: 00:20:32

It's still a relatively you know, new

part of the branding arsenal, but, like,

442

: 00:20:38

you know, I talked about doing something

in a break in a, in a screen in a, in

443

: 00:20:43

a, in a stadium, but there's a million

other places things can show up in like

444

: 00:20:46

corporate meetings and you know, devices.

445

: 00:20:49

There's a lot of things.

446

: 00:20:50

, it's inspired by, it's,

again, like a common language.

447

: 00:20:53

What you're trying to come up with,

because it's about personality.

448

: 00:20:56

It's really about, expressing

the personality and all the

449

: 00:20:58

places that the brand shows up.

450

: 00:21:00

John: So we are, we're curious to

hear about the range of projects.

451

: 00:21:04

You know, I know you've mentioned

Sonic logos and early on, it

452

: 00:21:07

sounded like that was just kind

of like the tip of the iceberg for

453

: 00:21:09

you, but And you've just mentioned

doing device sounds and car sounds.

454

: 00:21:13

Like what's the spectrum of audio

work that you do on behalf of brands,

455

: 00:21:18

Joel: well that's like why this is

insanely fun because every time we turn

456

: 00:21:22

around, there's a new opportunity and

something can do so we, we did we're

457

: 00:21:26

actually working on a flagship retail

project right now, which didn't open

458

: 00:21:30

or hasn't opened yet which I can't talk

about, but I'll talk about one that I can.

459

: 00:21:34

So we did really soundscapes for.

460

: 00:21:37

The the flagship retail

store for AT& T in Chicago.

461

: 00:21:42

So it's really, we're thinking

about every, it's like scoring your

462

: 00:21:45

experience through the whole store.

463

: 00:21:48

So if you walk in, you know, when you

think about like Chicago, there's all

464

: 00:21:51

this kind of crazy noise and energy

and stuff coming in off the street.

465

: 00:21:56

We wanted to get people to like,

just change their mood for a moment.

466

: 00:22:00

And we wanted to do something

a little bit whimsical.

467

: 00:22:02

So we came up with this idea of doing

like a sonic Rube Goldberg machine.

468

: 00:22:06

So you have, when you walk in, you have

all these sort of, you know you have a

469

: 00:22:11

mood that kind of grabs your attention.

470

: 00:22:13

It's like, all of a sudden

you're seeing things.

471

: 00:22:15

We wanted people to stop in the vestibule.

472

: 00:22:17

So you're not just going and getting

like a phone case, but you're like,

473

: 00:22:20

Ooh, and you're looking across the store

and you might see different things.

474

: 00:22:24

Because it slows you down.

475

: 00:22:26

It stops you, you know, we're able to

affect people's behavior with this.

476

: 00:22:30

And then the Rube Goldberg machine came in

with sort of all these little surprises.

477

: 00:22:35

It's like you hear, you know,

a ball coming down a xylophone,

478

: 00:22:38

or you hear like little moments

of fireworks or whatever it is.

479

: 00:22:43

So it's like it grabs your attention.

480

: 00:22:44

You want to stay in the

vestibule for a second.

481

: 00:22:46

And the biggest problem we had

with it really is the kids don't

482

: 00:22:49

want to leave the vestibule.

483

: 00:22:51

They don't want to go into the store.

484

: 00:22:53

So, you know, but that's

a good problem to have.

485

: 00:22:56

So

486

: 00:22:56

John: but you're, so you're kind of

helping navigate people through a retail

487

: 00:22:59

environment by keying them with sound.

488

: 00:23:01

Joel: yes.

489

: 00:23:02

And also in scoring.

490

: 00:23:04

In scoring their experiences in different

parts of the store we actually can

491

: 00:23:08

slow down people's shopping behavior,

which actually increases cash register.

492

: 00:23:13

So there's a lot of, you know, it's,

it's emotional, it's brand centered.

493

: 00:23:17

It's also very much

human behavior centered.

494

: 00:23:20

And there's like a ton of

research and associated with us.

495

: 00:23:22

Like we'll do implicit association

testing, which is subconscious

496

: 00:23:26

research that shows people like,

you know, basically by the choices

497

: 00:23:30

that they make when they're under

time pressure, we know that they're

498

: 00:23:34

getting to a subconscious response.

499

: 00:23:36

And that helps us actually

guide the direction of the work.

500

: 00:23:40

But you know, other examples if you

think about You know, theme parks.

501

: 00:23:45

Okay.

502

: 00:23:45

It, you know, might be super obvious, but

There, there is a little band in actually

503

: 00:23:51

in the star Wars experience in, in the the

theme parks where we created this song for

504

: 00:23:58

a band with the aliens that play through a

little window and all this kind of stuff.

505

: 00:24:02

But now that song shows up

in the retail environments.

506

: 00:24:06

So it's like, there's something

that's familiar, you know, the

507

: 00:24:08

voice is familiar or whatever.

508

: 00:24:10

And it's like, Oh, I just saw that

or, you know, whatever it, it just,

509

: 00:24:13

again, ties those experiences.

510

: 00:24:15

Yeah.

511

: 00:24:15

And, you know, people have a little smile

on their face, which doesn't hurt when

512

: 00:24:20

you're trying to, you know, sell merch.

513

: 00:24:22

So it really shows up in a

million different places.

514

: 00:24:25

You know, products are probably

one of the most fun places.

515

: 00:24:28

Brian: Are you a lot of times kind of

starting with like a starter kit of like,

516

: 00:24:32

you know, a couple tracks that they can

use in like a commercial or like you said,

517

: 00:24:37

on a, on a website or in an app, and then

they come back to you to kind of expand

518

: 00:24:42

on those things for different things.

519

: 00:24:43

Cause You know, like a logo,

there's different cuts or images

520

: 00:24:46

and stuff, but I could, you

know, music, it's the fit, right?

521

: 00:24:49

So like, is it, you know, every time

they have something new, they're

522

: 00:24:53

coming back to you to kind of make a

different version of the same thing?

523

: 00:24:56

Or how does that work?

524

: 00:24:57

Joel: Yeah, I mean, it is different.

525

: 00:24:59

It's different for every single client.

526

: 00:25:01

You know, a lot of times people come

in and it's like, okay, my biggest

527

: 00:25:04

need is a product or my biggest need

is retail or my biggest need is,

528

: 00:25:11

you know, the end of advertising

or the beginning of advertising.

529

: 00:25:14

So a lot of times we'll

start from those places.

530

: 00:25:17

And then develop toolkits based

on where people imagine their

531

: 00:25:21

sonic identity is going to go.

532

: 00:25:22

And again, we, we show people all the

different possibilities in their brand.

533

: 00:25:26

And they're like, Oh, well,

let's have it for that.

534

: 00:25:28

And for that what we've realized,

you know, over the years and really

535

: 00:25:32

just kind of dug into recently

is what you were talking about.

536

: 00:25:36

We know which, especially You know,

having to do with social, we know

537

: 00:25:40

that, you know what, there's probably

a hundred or a thousand times as much

538

: 00:25:44

content that brands need to create

or agents who need to create that

539

: 00:25:49

they use more than they used to.

540

: 00:25:50

So we know that there's going to be

that many thousands more pieces of

541

: 00:25:55

music where the sonic identity shows up.

542

: 00:25:58

So we developed this product called

continuum, which has You know, thousands

543

: 00:26:03

and thousands of tracks, which actually

we then kind of call down to specifically

544

: 00:26:07

the tracks that work for a particular

brand, and then we'll kind of give them

545

: 00:26:12

tools and instructions about how to put

their sonic identity, pretty much on

546

: 00:26:16

any piece of music that they utilize.

547

: 00:26:18

For the brand.

548

: 00:26:19

So, you know, we've been trying to

scale this idea because more so than

549

: 00:26:23

any time we've ever been doing this,

you know, again, there are just

550

: 00:26:27

thousands and thousands of executions.

551

: 00:26:30

As you guys well know you know,

it's a huge multiple, right?

552

: 00:26:33

John: And I'm guessing that, that, that

service you just talked about, where

553

: 00:26:36

you're trying to scale a core set of

sounds across a bunch of different.

554

: 00:26:41

Marketing channels.

555

: 00:26:42

Imagine with some franchise brands,

you're talking about many, many

556

: 00:26:46

different types of people and creative

teams playing around with that service.

557

: 00:26:51

Joel: Yeah.

558

: 00:26:51

And you know, that's, it's

actually kind of like part of

559

: 00:26:54

what we're doing is, gamify it

and just make it super fun to use.

560

: 00:26:58

Just like, make almost like a toy.

561

: 00:27:00

And,

562

: 00:27:00

John: So like a knucklehead like me

could go into a brand sound kit and,

563

: 00:27:04

and, and create some, some sounds

or, or use sounds into a social post.

564

: 00:27:09

Joel: Yeah, I mean you

absolutely and again,

565

: 00:27:12

John: Brian just says, Oh God.

566

: 00:27:13

Brian: Amazing.

567

: 00:27:14

It's terrifying to hear that.

568

: 00:27:16

Joel: So, you know, there

are guardrails, right?

569

: 00:27:18

You can't just do anything but

570

: 00:27:19

John: now you made Brian feel better

571

: 00:27:21

Joel: Oh, okay.

572

: 00:27:22

Okay.

573

: 00:27:22

You know, I, and, and all, probably

all the brand managers out there, too.

574

: 00:27:25

We may just feel more comfortable,

but I think the idea is to

575

: 00:27:29

give people a limited, but

very expansive and fun toolkit.

576

: 00:27:35

Again, a lot of it is library music,

but match it up against the owned

577

: 00:27:39

assets or use the owned assets

sometimes on different projects.

578

: 00:27:43

Brian: That's great.

579

: 00:27:44

I love the work that you

guys have done with Corona

580

: 00:27:47

specifically, like when I watched.

581

: 00:27:50

And listened.

582

: 00:27:51

I mean, you really feel like Rona when

you're when you're interacting with that.

583

: 00:27:55

And the Burger King work that

you've done as well, which seems

584

: 00:27:59

to be pretty significant in terms

of, you know, building sonic

585

: 00:28:03

branding with visual branding.

586

: 00:28:05

I mean, that seems like a client

that really was, lockstep with.

587

: 00:28:10

You know, building to

everything that you guys can do.

588

: 00:28:13

Joel: You know, it's, I'm

really glad you've been here.

589

: 00:28:14

You pointed out both of those because

they're amongst our favorite projects.

590

: 00:28:18

The Corona thing was super interesting

because you don't always do this now.

591

: 00:28:23

It's partly just because of where

we are culturally with music

592

: 00:28:27

and sound, but we had a band.

593

: 00:28:29

in the room and everyone was just jamming.

594

: 00:28:32

And from that jam, we're

like, Oh, this is cool.

595

: 00:28:35

This is cool.

596

: 00:28:36

So it became again, sort

of an iterative thing.

597

: 00:28:38

And it ended up like, we were like,

well, this melody, this melody.

598

: 00:28:42

And at the end, there was just like

one cool chord that got played.

599

: 00:28:46

And it's like, Oh, that became

now I'm on the beach now.

600

: 00:28:50

And this is.

601

: 00:28:51

So I'm, I'm glad you pointed that one out.

602

: 00:28:53

It's, it's won a lot of awards and it's

actually one of our favorite things.

603

: 00:28:57

The Burger King work you're

talking about is international.

604

: 00:29:00

So it's pretty much everything X,

U S and it's kind of like, if you

605

: 00:29:04

think about it almost from anyway,

hopefully people will, will YouTube

606

: 00:29:08

these things and find them, but

607

: 00:29:10

John: We'll share links.

608

: 00:29:11

Joel: Yeah.

609

: 00:29:11

Oh, good.

610

: 00:29:12

That's great.

611

: 00:29:13

There, there's another one that

again, just kind of an interesting

612

: 00:29:16

solution we did for Cinnamon Toast

Crunch, where they had this kind of

613

: 00:29:21

idea about, you know, owning this word

that they made up called cinna dust.

614

: 00:29:26

So you know, cinnamon and it could

be in a lot of different things.

615

: 00:29:29

So we're like, you know, they're

like, yeah, we want to, we want to

616

: 00:29:31

have a, A mnemonic for, for this

thing we're calling synod dust.

617

: 00:29:36

So it's like, well, nobody knows the word,

so we have to say the word in the logo.

618

: 00:29:40

And we were messing around with

a whole bunch of different things

619

: 00:29:43

and it's supposed to be irreverent.

620

: 00:29:44

So again, it's like you, you

end up a lot of times kind of

621

: 00:29:48

going down really blind alleys.

622

: 00:29:51

And we get down a ton

of blind alleys on that.

623

: 00:29:53

And one of the guys is

like, wait a minute.

624

: 00:29:55

And, and he just came like he,

he was on the way to Like he was

625

: 00:29:59

going to go to a stadium to a

game and he's like, wait a minute.

626

: 00:30:01

And he pulled out like one

of those handheld air horns.

627

: 00:30:05

And so we just recorded the air

horn, you know, said the word synod

628

: 00:30:09

dust in a really interesting way.

629

: 00:30:11

And there were like little chords,

a little you know, chords that

630

: 00:30:14

were that fit in were associated.

631

: 00:30:16

And we're just cracking ourselves up.

632

: 00:30:18

We didn't even know if it was

going to be fun for anybody else.

633

: 00:30:21

John: it sounds like a

really fun place to work.

634

: 00:30:23

Joel: It, you know, it, it is except the

times when we're trying to come up with

635

: 00:30:27

the idea and it's not coming and then

you're banging your head against the wall.

636

: 00:30:30

So I think probably everybody's

familiar with that, but yeah, it's,

637

: 00:30:34

John: So, do you have musicians

wandering around your studio every day?

638

: 00:30:37

Is it, is it just a

639

: 00:30:38

Joel: every day, like pretty much

everybody, there's a guy who's

640

: 00:30:41

even a business development guy

here who is a kick ass composer.

641

: 00:30:46

So like a lot of times, I mean, he's,

you know, he's worked on a lot of

642

: 00:30:50

our jobs, just like, well, wait a

minute, I'm going to not sell for a

643

: 00:30:53

minute and going to go into the studio

and record, you know, something.

644

: 00:30:57

So yeah, it's, it's very much

like a, you know, it's, I want

645

: 00:31:01

to say like a playground, but

sometimes it's more like a playpen.

646

: 00:31:04

So yeah, you're, you know, you're

kind of encouraged to just do

647

: 00:31:08

stupid stuff and see what sticks.

648

: 00:31:10

Brian: Do you guys find yourselves,

like, constantly, like, pulling out

649

: 00:31:14

your phone and, and recording something

really fast, like on the go, or do you

650

: 00:31:18

wake up in the middle of the night and

be like, Oh my God, I got something

651

: 00:31:20

in my head, I got to get it out.

652

: 00:31:21

I got to record it.

653

: 00:31:22

Like, we do that with writing and

stuff and God knows what you, we

654

: 00:31:26

actually were thinking at the time, but

655

: 00:31:28

John: Yeah.

656

: 00:31:28

Joel: Yeah, I, you know, for me

personally, I can't talk about

657

: 00:31:31

everyone else's process, but

for me, I do it all the time.

658

: 00:31:34

It's like I wake up and it's

like, Oh, I got to do this thing.

659

: 00:31:37

And I'll just, my wife gets pissed off

because I'm waking her up or whatever.

660

: 00:31:41

I've been doing this

661

: 00:31:42

Brian: you're making it sound,

662

: 00:31:43

Joel: Yeah.

663

: 00:31:44

And then I put the

664

: 00:31:44

Brian: you can't just write it.

665

: 00:31:45

Joel: and in like nine times out of

10 in the morning, I listened to it.

666

: 00:31:49

It's like, Oh, this is crap.

667

: 00:31:50

But then there's one, there's one time

every out of 10 that it's awesome.

668

: 00:31:55

John: Yeah.

669

: 00:31:55

Most of those 2:00 AM ideas

are bad, but it's good when

670

: 00:31:58

Good when you get a good one.

671

: 00:31:59

Brian: You don't, if you, and if you, if

you hadn't put it down, you would have

672

: 00:32:03

been like, I missed the one thing that was

673

: 00:32:05

Joel: I know.

674

: 00:32:06

Yeah, exactly.

675

: 00:32:07

Brian: The other project that I wanted to

really ask you about was HBO because HBO

676

: 00:32:11

was such an iconic sound over the years,

you know, for decades of You know, just

677

: 00:32:16

going through the history of HBO, it has

that, that sound and you were able to,

678

: 00:32:22

you know, bring new sound around that.

679

: 00:32:25

And I really wanted to ask you about

that process of like merging and

680

: 00:32:28

integrating newer sound to an iconic

sound and making sure that it fits and

681

: 00:32:34

goes together and, you know, becomes

more modern and tells the story.

682

: 00:32:37

And I feel like you guys did

a really great job on that.

683

: 00:32:39

And I'm sure that's an

interesting process.

684

: 00:32:42

Joel: Yeah.

685

: 00:32:42

I mean, thanks.

686

: 00:32:43

That's actually really fun

to do and also very stressful

687

: 00:32:47

Brian: I'm sure.

688

: 00:32:48

Joel: because you got to get it right.

689

: 00:32:50

You know, it's, it's people

know, love that brand.

690

: 00:32:53

And if you don't get it right, man,

you're going to get really, really.

691

: 00:32:56

Bad social media posts.

692

: 00:32:58

Brian: Yep.

693

: 00:32:59

Thank you.

694

: 00:32:59

Joel: Luckily we haven't had that yet.

695

: 00:33:00

We've seen a couple of competitors

who've really gotten blasted on an app.

696

: 00:33:04

That there actually was a television show.

697

: 00:33:06

I won't tell you which one that

took our work off the air and did an

698

: 00:33:09

arrangement, a different version of it.

699

: 00:33:12

And They just got completely

blasted with tweets from their,

700

: 00:33:16

you know, their audience.

701

: 00:33:17

It's like, why did you change

my thing that I really love?

702

: 00:33:20

I, you know, wake up to it every day.

703

: 00:33:22

So it's, it's very it's,

there's a lot of pressure.

704

: 00:33:25

I, I did the same thing actually

for the Superbowl theme for NBC.

705

: 00:33:29

So there was this piece that John

Williams wrote, you know, wrote that had

706

: 00:33:32

been the theme for the Super Bowl and

actually for NBC for quite some time.

707

: 00:33:36

And it was really awesome, kind of

like a march tempo orchestra thing,

708

: 00:33:42

which was perfect at the time.

709

: 00:33:44

And they wanted to evolve

it and move it forward.

710

: 00:33:46

And they said, John, okay, well,

you know, could you put some

711

: 00:33:48

electronics and maybe some rum?

712

: 00:33:50

He's like, okay, that's not my thing.

713

: 00:33:52

But I had, you know, he and I had worked.

714

: 00:33:55

Briefly on a project actually

for the news division of NBC.

715

: 00:33:59

So he said, well, why don't

you give this guy a try?

716

: 00:34:01

So he referred me to work on this.

717

: 00:34:03

Of course, now I'm already

petrified, you know, that,

718

: 00:34:06

John: gonna say, stressful

working with the HBO logo,

719

: 00:34:09

working with John Williams music.

720

: 00:34:11

Oh

721

: 00:34:11

Brian: Yeah, I mean, geez,

talk about like being nervous.

722

: 00:34:14

John: Good lord.

723

: 00:34:16

. Joel: Originally when I was

given the assignment, I said,

724

: 00:34:17

you know, like, let me call up.

725

: 00:34:19

John Williams and just see if he has

any guidance suggestions, whatever.

726

: 00:34:22

So I called up and I I spoke to his

agent for a minute and said, you know

727

: 00:34:27

I'd love to get in the phone with with

you and john and we can have conversation

728

: 00:34:30

about this And he said let me call him.

729

: 00:34:33

Let me check it out And he called me back.

730

: 00:34:36

He said, Oh, actually, John,

John said, you should just

731

: 00:34:38

do what you think is right.

732

: 00:34:40

It's like, no, no, no, no.

733

: 00:34:41

Really?

734

: 00:34:41

I want to get on the phone with him.

735

: 00:34:42

No, no, no.

736

: 00:34:43

He wants you to do what

you think is right.

737

: 00:34:45

And I knew also that

he's a big football fan.

738

: 00:34:48

So now I'm really screwed because I'm

going to create this piece with no input.

739

: 00:34:54

And knowing that you know, it's

possible that it can't be that the

740

: 00:34:57

first time he hears this is on the air.

741

: 00:35:00

So I finished all the mixes.

742

: 00:35:01

NBC was really happy.

743

: 00:35:02

I called up the agent.

744

: 00:35:03

I said, let me send you the mixes.

745

: 00:35:05

He said, wait, wait, wait a minute.

746

: 00:35:06

Let me find out.

747

: 00:35:07

And he spoke to John.

748

: 00:35:08

He came.

749

: 00:35:08

No, John just wants you to

do what you think is right.

750

: 00:35:11

So here we are.

751

: 00:35:12

I know the first downbeat that

he's going to hear this is on the

752

: 00:35:16

first downbeat of the Superbowl.

753

: 00:35:18

So of course I was freaking out,

called his agent after the Superbowl.

754

: 00:35:22

I said, well, you know, What did he think,

you know, because I think I called a

755

: 00:35:25

week or two after I was kind of I didn't

want to know, but I wanted to know.

756

: 00:35:28

So I said, you know,

well, what did he think?

757

: 00:35:30

He said, let me get back to you.

758

: 00:35:31

It's like a typical thing, right?

759

: 00:35:33

Let me get back to you.

760

: 00:35:34

John: Yeah, just, just twist

in the wind for another

761

: 00:35:36

Joel: Exactly.

762

: 00:35:37

So twist in the wind for another

two weeks until he gets back to me.

763

: 00:35:41

And it's like, then he's on the phone.

764

: 00:35:42

I'm like, my hands are shaking.

765

: 00:35:44

He's like, Oh, John

really liked what you did.

766

: 00:35:46

I'm like, so anyway,

767

: 00:35:47

John: Amen.

768

: 00:35:48

Joel: that, that's my, that's my

brush with trying to take greatness

769

: 00:35:52

and, and move it into the future.

770

: 00:35:54

Brian: Awesome.

771

: 00:35:54

John: At least he had the right reaction.

772

: 00:35:56

Joel: Thank God.

773

: 00:35:57

Otherwise I think I would have curled

into a ball into like fetal position.

774

: 00:36:00

John: that could have, that, John

Williams throws you under the bus

775

: 00:36:03

could, could, could change the

trajectory of your career, I suppose.

776

: 00:36:06

Joel: Even if he just hates me, that could

change the trajectory of my, of my brain.

777

: 00:36:11

Brian: You can't even, you can't even

continue to work if that happens.

778

: 00:36:14

John: Yeah,

779

: 00:36:14

Joel: You know, they're

still hiring at the bank.

780

: 00:36:16

So maybe I can go there and like

count, count cash or something.

781

: 00:36:20

So, you know, Let lucky but you

know, it's again, these kinds of

782

: 00:36:24

situations where you're redoing

a famous Sonic logo or a theme.

783

: 00:36:29

Again, there's a lot of pressure.

784

: 00:36:30

It's also super fun to really, you know,

kind of dive in and, you know, you know,

785

: 00:36:36

it's already part of popular culture

and you have to kind of be brave about

786

: 00:36:41

it and realize that that's the job.

787

: 00:36:43

It really, I mean, I know you

guys do that with visual content

788

: 00:36:47

all the time, and I'm sure.

789

: 00:36:48

Brand managers and marketers who were

listening have probably done that a lot

790

: 00:36:52

of time, you know, a lot of time too.

791

: 00:36:53

It's, it's exciting and terrifying.

792

: 00:36:56

John: Joel, I'd like to

connect a couple of things.

793

: 00:36:58

You started talking about

the human element, right?

794

: 00:37:00

The things that make us feel and just

kind of experience things differently.

795

: 00:37:06

What stands out in terms of a brand sound

or soundscape or Sonic logo, anything

796

: 00:37:12

that was really effective in shifting

consumer perceptions about a brand

797

: 00:37:16

Joel: It's such a great question.

798

: 00:37:17

And there's so many dimensions of

that because it could be cultural.

799

: 00:37:21

It could be, you know, it, it,

you know, now you have a brand

800

: 00:37:24

that's, that's connected to culture.

801

: 00:37:26

Now you have a brand that's,

you know, much more, you

802

: 00:37:28

hear like a brand evolution.

803

: 00:37:30

I would say probably one of the

most interesting ones was, you know,

804

: 00:37:34

nationwide, it's like, you know, I've

had like old school nationwide is on your

805

: 00:37:38

side, which I think is kind of boring.

806

: 00:37:40

It's like, Oh my God, I

don't want to use that.

807

: 00:37:42

And, but there were some smart.

808

: 00:37:45

Advertisers out there who said,

you know, like, wait a minute,

809

: 00:37:47

there's like all this equity.

810

: 00:37:49

How do we bring that forward?

811

: 00:37:50

So, you know, you had, you know all

these people in ads going like in,

812

: 00:37:56

in different ways, electronics and

all sorts of different ways that

813

: 00:37:59

it could be reinvented, but you

know, sort of tongue in cheek like

814

: 00:38:03

I thought that was super successful

again because they were carrying the

815

: 00:38:06

equity forward, but really doing in

a way that was kind of self-effacing.

816

: 00:38:10

You know, you were talking a

little bit again about kind of

817

: 00:38:12

going back to human experience.

818

: 00:38:14

There's one thing I mentioned

in the, in the book called,

819

: 00:38:17

which I call sonic humanism.

820

: 00:38:18

It's the idea of using music and sound to

make people's lives richer and simpler.

821

: 00:38:25

And a lot of that doesn't have to

do specifically with marketing.

822

: 00:38:28

But again, it's the same principles.

823

: 00:38:30

So we've used music and sound principles,

for instance, for Hospital rooms.

824

: 00:38:36

So in hospitals, one of the biggest

problems is what they call alarm fatigue.

825

: 00:38:40

So alarms, there are alarms that are

going off in hospital rooms for like

826

: 00:38:44

every device and for things that are super

minor, but they're blaring and they're

827

: 00:38:49

not blaring to help patient experience.

828

: 00:38:52

They're blaring so that the

manufacturers don't get sued.

829

: 00:38:55

To make sure that it's grabbing

the attention of the caregivers.

830

: 00:38:58

So one of the things we're really trying

to do is use some of the principles of

831

: 00:39:01

music and sound To make you know to to

sort of calm people in those experiences

832

: 00:39:07

It you know, even if you just have a

very simple biophilic idea, you know,

833

: 00:39:12

like from nature sound from nature Like,

you know a wave like a sound like a you

834

: 00:39:17

know, an ocean wave, but you have to

Pick exactly the right kind of wave.

835

: 00:39:22

You know, there are ones that

can be very sort of irritating.

836

: 00:39:25

There are ones that could be scary.

837

: 00:39:27

There are ones can, you know,

ones can grab your attention.

838

: 00:39:29

I think a lot of times in these

Experiences, especially in alarm fatigue.

839

: 00:39:33

It it's, we want music and sound

that people don't even know that

840

: 00:39:37

it's there unless you turn it off.

841

: 00:39:39

So just be kind of part, you know, becomes

part of the landscape that you're in.

842

: 00:39:44

So this idea of, of improving people's

lives in, in these kinds of experiences,

843

: 00:39:51

I'm really, really interested in that

there, there's another thing we've

844

: 00:39:53

done with some cities where there are,

you know, for instance, in Detroit,

845

: 00:39:59

There are some areas of Detroit

where there's a, like a ton of houses

846

: 00:40:04

that are right next to a highway.

847

: 00:40:06

So they'll go in and they went in

actually and, and put in all these

848

: 00:40:11

sound and noise barriers between

the highway and the houses, but

849

: 00:40:16

that doesn't solve the whole thing.

850

: 00:40:18

It's, it'll, it'll decrease the din,

but you're still hearing the noise.

851

: 00:40:22

That road sound the, the, the

sound of the cars on the road.

852

: 00:40:26

So what we did is we designed for the

city of Detroit sort of a, a nature

853

: 00:40:30

scape with you know, what the local

birds would be in Detroit in the trees.

854

: 00:40:37

And maybe they should add more trees, but,

but again, it's sort of covers that din.

855

: 00:40:43

John: So Joel, you have created

these urban soundscapes.

856

: 00:40:47

Is that something you do regularly?

857

: 00:40:48

Was that Detroit project a one off?

858

: 00:40:50

Joel: Well, it definitely was a one off.

859

: 00:40:52

I don't think we get calls from

cities every day of the week, but,

860

: 00:40:55

we took that thinking and brought

it to this project in Dallas called.

861

: 00:40:59

Discovery District, it was for at

and t and at and t took over like

862

: 00:41:03

a two square block area of downtown

Dallas and looking to revitalize it

863

: 00:41:08

the same way that Detroit was looking

to rev, you know, revitalize some of

864

: 00:41:11

the sections they had in their city.

865

: 00:41:13

So in this two square block area, they

created almost an adult theme park in

866

: 00:41:18

some ways, but you didn't experience

it that way you really experienced it

867

: 00:41:22

almost like its own unique environment.

868

: 00:41:25

Unlike any environment

you'd find anywhere else.

869

: 00:41:27

So on one side of a building, there

was 100 foot screen and with all sorts

870

: 00:41:32

of really cool, interesting visions

that, you know, we're essentially

871

: 00:41:36

animations everything from sort of.

872

: 00:41:39

Supernatural kind of floating

beings to looking at the side of the

873

: 00:41:44

building and like bits and pieces of

the building would fold and unfold

874

: 00:41:47

and become different buildings.

875

: 00:41:49

If you stood in one spot, there was

like an Easter egg where the whole

876

: 00:41:53

place would light up So, the sound

really was incredibly important in

877

: 00:41:58

that particular exercise because we

experience sound before we experience

878

: 00:42:04

Any other input from any other sense.

879

: 00:42:07

So really in a lot of ways in multi

sensory environments, because we hear

880

: 00:42:11

the sound first, that becomes the arbiter

of all of our other, our other senses.

881

: 00:42:18

So either the visuals match up to

what you're hearing or they don't.

882

: 00:42:23

And if they don't, you could be

really annoyed by it, or you could

883

: 00:42:26

be, you know, you get kind of like

cognitive dissonance against it.

884

: 00:42:30

So we really have to think about.

885

: 00:42:32

Not just what we're doing

sonically, but how it is marrying

886

: 00:42:36

against all other sensory input.

887

: 00:42:38

I used to do a lot of horror films.

888

: 00:42:40

I'd score a lot of horror

films and one of them.

889

: 00:42:43

Yeah.

890

: 00:42:43

And when they're like, when I

started my career and I had like,

891

: 00:42:46

Just, I was trying to get examples

like these B or C horror movies.

892

: 00:42:50

And what I learned was if you put

the sound right on the scare, you

893

: 00:42:54

blow the whole moment for like,

you wouldn't be scared because

894

: 00:42:59

you experienced the sound first, I

actually had to move the sound later.

895

: 00:43:03

That was, I think the first time

I realized how important that was.

896

: 00:43:07

And I've carried that through

my career ever, ever since.

897

: 00:43:10

Brian: Can you talk a little bit about

kind of how you got into the industry and

898

: 00:43:14

kind of what you were doing and what led

you to You know, get into the industry.

899

: 00:43:17

I know that you you kind of had a

connection to sound from up from a young

900

: 00:43:21

age, but like, where did you start?

901

: 00:43:23

And then talk a little bit about

kind of how you got into this

902

: 00:43:26

specific part of the industry.

903

: 00:43:27

Joel: Well, what really started was trying

to convince my dad to pay for an education

904

: 00:43:31

in NYU and for me, you know, in music.

905

: 00:43:33

And what he said is, I won't do

that, but if you do a business

906

: 00:43:37

double major, I will pay for that.

907

: 00:43:39

Brian: Oh,

908

: 00:43:39

Joel: that's where I went.

909

: 00:43:40

And who knew that the business

part of this would really

910

: 00:43:43

help me going down the line.

911

: 00:43:44

But my first my first inclination

of course, was to be like a rock

912

: 00:43:48

star, like everybody else studying

913

: 00:43:50

John: Yeah.

914

: 00:43:50

Sometimes, sometimes dads

know things, apparently.

915

: 00:43:53

Look at that.

916

: 00:43:54

Brian: In the long run.

917

: 00:43:55

Joel: and I'm a dad.

918

: 00:43:55

I'd like to think that I knew something,

but not as much as my dad knows.

919

: 00:43:59

But you know, the so when I got

over my rock star fever, I realized,

920

: 00:44:03

you know, look, I, I love movies.

921

: 00:44:05

I love television shows.

922

: 00:44:06

And I started to score.

923

: 00:44:08

I started to learn how to score in at NYU.

924

: 00:44:10

But of course there's nothing

like getting on the job.

925

: 00:44:13

training and trying to figure this

stuff out and making directors

926

: 00:44:16

happy and understanding their

vision and hopefully making their

927

: 00:44:20

vision even a little bit better.

928

: 00:44:21

But at the beginning I was kind of

starving and I had like a family at home.

929

: 00:44:25

So I, so I got introduced.

930

: 00:44:28

Believe it or not, to my wife, who

is in promo world in television

931

: 00:44:31

promotion, the idea of not just

scoring film and television, but

932

: 00:44:35

scoring promotional campaigns.

933

: 00:44:38

And then all the things I learned about

creating themes for film and television,

934

: 00:44:42

I brought to the idea, I brought to the

concept of creating themes for brands.

935

: 00:44:47

So at first it was just entertainment

brands and that's where things like

936

: 00:44:51

the HBO project came, you know, came

into being and some work we did with

937

: 00:44:55

Turner classic movies and for Showtime.

938

: 00:44:58

And a lot of this stuff is

still on the air decades later,

939

: 00:45:00

which is really fun to see.

940

: 00:45:02

And then that led into doing things

with general market brands, which,

941

: 00:45:08

you know, like this AT& T project,

which became really fun because

942

: 00:45:12

it's like, Oh, now it's, it's this

whole new medium, this whole new.

943

: 00:45:15

Area that I'd never played in before.

944

: 00:45:18

John: So Joel, that, that career

arc transition from being about

945

: 00:45:21

entertainment into a focus on helping

brands and, and being, you know, kind

946

: 00:45:26

of supporting the marketing role.

947

: 00:45:28

How, and you've mentioned, you've

talked about you know, driving results

948

: 00:45:32

at retail and things like that.

949

: 00:45:33

How do you measure some of that

stuff in the market or how to

950

: 00:45:36

do, how do the marketers you work

with measure the impact of sound?

951

: 00:45:39

Yeah.

952

: 00:45:40

Joel: you know, there's

a lot of different ways.

953

: 00:45:41

Obviously, the easiest one

is cash register, right?

954

: 00:45:44

If you add something to an environment.

955

: 00:45:45

And it changes the cash

register one way or another.

956

: 00:45:48

That's that tells you right there.

957

: 00:45:49

But as we all know, marketing is, is

probably a bit more art than science.

958

: 00:45:54

Please don't tell our CMOs

and our but, you know,

959

: 00:45:57

John: it.

960

: 00:45:57

Joel: we, we know that also we, if we can

show that we've influenced, influenced

961

: 00:46:02

Consumer behavior, or at least how they

feel about something, their impression

962

: 00:46:06

of a brand their emotional connection to

some kind of communication, you can begin

963

: 00:46:11

to glean from that, the value and, and

hopefully the multiple of value that you

964

: 00:46:17

bring in each of these communications.

965

: 00:46:19

A lot of times what I talk to people

about is what we try to do is to

966

: 00:46:22

create things that move people that

really leverages their media spend.

967

: 00:46:26

So if you get the same value Let's

say by doing half the media spend.

968

: 00:46:30

That's amazing.

969

: 00:46:31

If you get twice the value by doing

the same media spend in terms of

970

: 00:46:35

having people, you know, changing

people's impressions of your brand.

971

: 00:46:38

I mean, that's gold.

972

: 00:46:40

So that to me, that's really kind of our,

in terms of how we're serving our clients.

973

: 00:46:44

That's one of the most important things.

974

: 00:46:46

Obviously, elevating and lifting the

brand perception is important just

975

: 00:46:50

intrinsically, and the same thing

what we're doing for audiences,

976

: 00:46:53

which is people love brands.

977

: 00:46:55

They love to love brands.

978

: 00:46:57

And if we can create that kind of

emotional stickiness in association with

979

: 00:47:02

the brand, it's sort of like win win.

980

: 00:47:04

One thing that's really typical, obviously

for for marketers is, , basically using

981

: 00:47:10

groups of people in focus groups to

figure out how they feel about, you know,

982

: 00:47:15

different, Advertising or whatever it

is, the moment you do that with music

983

: 00:47:19

and sound, like throw all the results

out the window because sound really,

984

: 00:47:23

especially in marketing and film scores

and television scores, the moment

985

: 00:47:28

that you're aware of it consciously

and you're saying, Oh, I like this.

986

: 00:47:32

I don't like the music.

987

: 00:47:33

It's like, that's not the point.

988

: 00:47:35

So you really have to do this subconscious

testing, which is the implicit association

989

: 00:47:40

testing in which gives, you know, gives

you a much better sense of people's you

990

: 00:47:44

know, subconscious reactions to things,

because again, it it's sounded music.

991

: 00:47:50

It operates on this subconscious level.

992

: 00:47:52

The other thing we've

been doing a lot with now.

993

: 00:47:55

Believe it or not is

is eye tracking studies

994

: 00:47:57

John: I was going to say, you must

be some biometrics involved here.

995

: 00:48:00

Joel: Definitely using biometrics and,

you know, some of this stuff, I think

996

: 00:48:03

we're still learning where the value

is, . But again, I think that the

997

: 00:48:08

The, you know, the research portion

of this is incredibly important.

998

: 00:48:12

John: Interesting.

999

: 00:48:13

, Joel going to pivot to the

inevitable question about AI.

: 1000

00:48:17,017 --> 00:48:20,347

has generative AI kind of

come into your business?

: 1001

00:48:20,567 --> 00:48:22,067

How often are you using it now?

: 1002

00:48:22,317 --> 00:48:23,907

Joel: you know, it generated AI.

: 1003

00:48:23,907 --> 00:48:27,147

I think it's obviously still evolving.

: 1004

00:48:27,407 --> 00:48:31,247

There's some, some applications

of it that are incredible.

: 1005

00:48:31,457 --> 00:48:36,647

There was, or there is, a

physical location where there's

: 1006

00:48:36,737 --> 00:48:39,767

you have to think about, oh,

well, it's not just the customers.

: 1007

00:48:39,767 --> 00:48:43,717

It's also the people who are

working in this space all the time.

: 1008

00:48:44,037 --> 00:48:47,967

And, you know, one of the things that

drive people crazy is a playlist of

: 1009

00:48:47,967 --> 00:48:50,107

two hours of music, and then it repeats

: 1010

00:48:50,202 --> 00:48:50,842

John: Oh, amen.

: 1011

00:48:51,092 --> 00:48:52,042

Joel: And then it repeats.

: 1012

00:48:52,382 --> 00:48:54,692

So one of the really great uses of A.

: 1013

00:48:54,692 --> 00:48:54,942

I.

: 1014

00:48:55,142 --> 00:49:00,842

We created a whole, you know, long

piece of music with a lot of different

: 1015

00:49:00,892 --> 00:49:03,712

Elements, you know, okay, there

could be a guitar element here.

: 1016

00:49:03,712 --> 00:49:05,702

That could be a, you know, snaps.

: 1017

00:49:05,702 --> 00:49:07,492

It could be this, it could

be this, it could be this.

: 1018

00:49:07,772 --> 00:49:13,252

And we, we fed it into an AI generator

for, you know, basically generator for

: 1019

00:49:13,502 --> 00:49:19,422

you know, gen AI, gen AI for music, and

it created about 40 hours of music that.

: 1020

00:49:19,807 --> 00:49:24,447

You could listen to and it felt different

enough that it was like pleasant and

: 1021

00:49:24,447 --> 00:49:27,497

it just, you know, there's like, okay,

I think there were actually like five

: 1022

00:49:27,497 --> 00:49:31,917

or six different pieces of music and

tons of stems, you know, which is

: 1023

00:49:31,937 --> 00:49:33,427

all those different instrumentations.

: 1024

00:49:33,897 --> 00:49:35,407

That is a really great.

: 1025

00:49:35,757 --> 00:49:39,957

Use for AI especially in, in

sort of more spatially driven

: 1026

00:49:39,967 --> 00:49:41,627

things, the, the stuff that's,

: 1027

00:49:41,642 --> 00:49:45,862

John: So just expanding on the thing,

expanding on the human created elements

: 1028

00:49:46,112 --> 00:49:46,562

Joel: yes.

: 1029

00:49:46,602 --> 00:49:48,092

And, and utilize, yeah.

: 1030

00:49:48,092 --> 00:49:53,132

Utilizing them kind of in, in,

in, in a specific fashion based

: 1031

00:49:53,132 --> 00:49:58,812

on the the vocabulary that

AI learns from that material.

: 1032

00:49:59,092 --> 00:50:02,302

I would say like, You know, I know

everybody's in the same boat here, but

: 1033

00:50:02,632 --> 00:50:04,772

ethical AI is super important to us.

: 1034

00:50:04,772 --> 00:50:09,252

We don't want systems that have been

trained on music without permission.

: 1035

00:50:09,502 --> 00:50:13,982

So the systems that we're working

with right now and still experimenting

: 1036

00:50:13,982 --> 00:50:19,112

with are trained really just on

the music that we've created.

: 1037

00:50:19,542 --> 00:50:23,252

For that particular project

and other music that we own.

: 1038

00:50:23,502 --> 00:50:27,132

So you know, the more data you put

into these things, the, you know,

: 1039

00:50:27,132 --> 00:50:29,322

into these models, the better it is.

: 1040

00:50:29,612 --> 00:50:31,912

But that's, that's one of the

things we're really trying to make

: 1041

00:50:32,142 --> 00:50:33,752

sure that we've got it straight.

: 1042

00:50:33,872 --> 00:50:37,092

The other thing we learned about,

you know, using AI is there always

: 1043

00:50:37,092 --> 00:50:38,902

has to be a human touch in this.

: 1044

00:50:39,152 --> 00:50:41,682

It, you, you can't just let.

: 1045

00:50:42,147 --> 00:50:46,117

The generative AI just do its thing

because it just, there are points

: 1046

00:50:46,117 --> 00:50:47,967

of, it just doesn't feel right.

: 1047

00:50:47,967 --> 00:50:50,457

It definitely feels canned or mechanical.

: 1048

00:50:50,797 --> 00:50:54,927

So it, you know, it, it's a

huge time saver, but we still

: 1049

00:50:54,927 --> 00:50:56,627

need that, that human touch.

: 1050

00:50:56,627 --> 00:51:00,207

And I think this is going to keep

getting better and better and better.

: 1051

00:51:00,537 --> 00:51:06,627

The one thing I'm scared about is with

AI is I train and when I train and I was

: 1052

00:51:06,627 --> 00:51:11,937

doing music for music libraries and other

things, I wasn't writing great music.

: 1053

00:51:11,937 --> 00:51:14,467

I was writing okay music

when I first started out.

: 1054

00:51:14,717 --> 00:51:21,217

And I think in our business, music that's

created that's just okay, that's dead.

: 1055

00:51:21,467 --> 00:51:23,197

Because there's tons of AI.

: 1056

00:51:23,197 --> 00:51:26,307

There's going to be tons

of music created by AI.

: 1057

00:51:26,567 --> 00:51:28,267

That's going to be just okay.

: 1058

00:51:28,517 --> 00:51:32,177

So my question is, how do we train

the next generation of composers

: 1059

00:51:32,177 --> 00:51:35,997

and producers when those Okay.

: 1060

00:51:35,997 --> 00:51:41,247

Applications like, you know our song

in the back of, you know of a scene

: 1061

00:51:41,247 --> 00:51:46,417

of CSI where people used to make some

coin as they were learning, like, okay,

: 1062

00:51:46,417 --> 00:51:51,327

well, if AI is doing that, how are we

going to grow our next crop of people,

: 1063

00:51:51,337 --> 00:51:53,117

which I'm sure it's not just music.

: 1064

00:51:53,367 --> 00:51:54,437

You guys experienced the same thing.

: 1065

00:51:54,687 --> 00:51:57,057

John: Hadn't thought of it in those

terms, but that's really interesting.

: 1066

00:51:57,187 --> 00:51:57,317

Yeah.

: 1067

00:51:57,317 --> 00:51:59,507

How do you learn if, if the machine is.

: 1068

00:51:59,937 --> 00:52:00,977

Doing the basic stuff.

: 1069

00:52:01,227 --> 00:52:01,557

Brian: Way.

: 1070

00:52:01,607 --> 00:52:05,917

I mean, if everything can do

okay, work, how do you take your

: 1071

00:52:06,167 --> 00:52:07,457

okay work and make it great.

: 1072

00:52:07,707 --> 00:52:09,287

Oh, and cause that's

going to be the bar now.

: 1073

00:52:09,537 --> 00:52:11,297

Joel, really appreciate your time.

: 1074

00:52:11,297 --> 00:52:12,417

Thanks for joining us.

: 1075

00:52:12,717 --> 00:52:16,037

It was really interesting to

connect on all this stuff.

: 1076

00:52:16,037 --> 00:52:19,437

It's fascinating to think about all this

stuff that kind of goes on that you might

: 1077

00:52:19,437 --> 00:52:22,487

not always think about and how it kind

of is the best part of your experience.

: 1078

00:52:22,707 --> 00:52:24,407

John: what an education, really cool.

: 1079

00:52:24,497 --> 00:52:28,107

I mean, we're also aware of the

visual stuff in our lives and don't

: 1080

00:52:28,217 --> 00:52:30,037

we take the audio for granted.

: 1081

00:52:30,037 --> 00:52:33,697

So this is really helpful to hear

from your, hear from your experience.

: 1082

00:52:33,947 --> 00:52:34,407

Joel: Well, thanks.

: 1083

00:52:34,407 --> 00:52:36,967

It was really, really, really

fun to talk to you guys about it.

: 1084

00:52:36,967 --> 00:52:41,727

And it's it's always you know, it's

the big marketing concepts and the big

: 1085

00:52:41,737 --> 00:52:44,037

visual concepts that we find inspiring.

: 1086

00:52:44,387 --> 00:52:47,537

And what we try to do is add something

to them and make them even better.

: 1087

00:52:47,537 --> 00:52:49,627

So thank you guys for what you do.

: 1088

00:52:49,627 --> 00:52:51,357

And cause otherwise I

wouldn't have any work.

: 1089

00:52:51,357 --> 00:52:51,677

So

: 1090

00:52:52,167 --> 00:52:52,677

John: All right.

: 1091

00:52:52,927 --> 00:52:53,877

Well, Joel, thanks again.

: 1092

00:52:53,877 --> 00:52:56,362

You have a great day and

take care of yourself.

: 1093

00:52:56,612 --> 00:52:56,852

Joel: guys.

: 1094

00:52:57,102 --> 00:52:59,122

Brian: John, that was that

was a great interview.

: 1095

00:52:59,222 --> 00:53:04,212

Really love talking about things that you

might not be thinking about in marketing

: 1096

00:53:04,472 --> 00:53:05,392

John: Never think about you.

: 1097

00:53:05,612 --> 00:53:06,552

Brian: yeah, never.

: 1098

00:53:06,572 --> 00:53:09,902

And you just see how important

that really is and how that does

: 1099

00:53:09,922 --> 00:53:13,122

really align as a piece in the, as

a strong piece in the brand toolkit.

: 1100

00:53:13,597 --> 00:53:16,797

John: Yeah, well, and we'll share some

links about with some of the examples,

: 1101

00:53:16,827 --> 00:53:20,717

because when you hear them, you're

like, wow, that is I'm so aware of that.

: 1102

00:53:20,767 --> 00:53:25,317

And it creates such a connection

to a brand or a show that

: 1103

00:53:25,317 --> 00:53:26,377

I wasn't fully aware of.

: 1104

00:53:26,387 --> 00:53:29,377

But when you hear it and think about it,

like, wow, yep, that's that's the thing.

: 1105

00:53:29,377 --> 00:53:29,747

I know.

: 1106

00:53:29,997 --> 00:53:32,387

I will say I was, there was

one question I really wanted to

: 1107

00:53:32,387 --> 00:53:33,977

ask, but I never got the nerve.

: 1108

00:53:34,227 --> 00:53:34,677

Brian: What's that?

: 1109

00:53:34,927 --> 00:53:39,087

John: I really wanted Joel to

redo our Snap Decisions music, our

: 1110

00:53:39,087 --> 00:53:41,947

intro and close music, because you

know, it makes me a little upset.

: 1111

00:53:42,197 --> 00:53:44,287

Brian: Maybe that's a: 2025

: 1112

00:53:44,537 --> 00:53:44,777

John: Yeah.

: 1113

00:53:44,907 --> 00:53:47,497

I don't know if we can afford

him, but if he likes the podcast,

: 1114

00:53:47,567 --> 00:53:48,667

maybe he'll do it for free.

: 1115

00:53:48,917 --> 00:53:49,567

Brian: You never know.

: 1116

00:53:49,722 --> 00:53:51,552

John: Reverse compensation

for his appearance.

: 1117

00:53:51,802 --> 00:53:52,182

All right.

: 1118

00:53:52,182 --> 00:53:52,582

Well

: 1119

00:53:52,672 --> 00:53:53,072

Brian: it down.

: 1120

00:53:53,257 --> 00:53:56,017

John: happy shopping and

to, to, to everybody.

: 1121

00:53:56,017 --> 00:53:58,877

Thanks for listening

to a show about audio.

: 1122

00:53:59,242 --> 00:54:00,182

Brian: I like what you did there.

: 1123

00:54:00,447 --> 00:54:01,047

John: All right.

: 1124

00:54:01,297 --> 00:54:02,797

Brian: Alright, let's shut it down.

: 1125

00:54:03,047 --> 00:54:03,447

John: Bye.

: 1126

00:54:03,852 --> 00:54:04,132

Brian: Bye.

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