Judith Ish-Horowicz, the co-founder and director of the UK’s first intergenerational nursery, joins us for our first episode of the new school year. As part of our chat, Judith tells us all about the inspirational multi-generational work at Apples and Honey Nightingale and the benefits for all involved.

Episode Links

• Watch Judith Ish-Horowicz presenting a TEDx Talk about her work
• Find out more about Apples and Honey Nightingale CIC

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Here at Early Excellence, we specialise in early childhood education. We offer expert advice and guidance through training, consultancy and classroom design. With the Early Excellence podcast, we aim to inspire and support you as well as challenge your thinking. So if that's what you're looking for, you've come to the right place.

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Hello everybody, welcome back. I hope you've had a good start to the new school year. In this episode, which is episode 131 of the Early Excellence podcast, we chat to Judith Ish Horowitz, who is the co-founder and director of the UK's first intergenerational nursery. It's a really interesting chat to get our new season started. So here you go, here's my Early Excellence podcast chat with Judith Ish Horowitz.

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Good morning Judith, how are you? I'm well today, thank you. And how are you? Very good, yeah, and very well, very well, all good. And thank you so much for joining us. It's great that you could join us. I'm really looking forward to chatting to you all about your work and about your setting. It sounds really interesting, really, really interesting. So you are the co-founder and the director of the UK's first intergenerational nursery within a care home, which sounds just amazing.

01:29

I've heard about settings like your setting, but I've never actually talked to somebody in any detail about it and how it works. I'm really, really looking forward to finding out all about it. Can you tell us about the setting? Tell us about the starting points for it and the, actually we're gonna come on to the starting points, aren't we? Can you tell us about the setting first of all? Would that be okay? Yeah, absolutely. And I'm delighted to be able to share this with you. It says that I'm quite passionate about it.

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because I've seen the impact and I've just seen the effect it has not just on the older people with whom we are meeting every day and enjoying life, living life together, but also on the families that actually surround those people, the relatives of the residents, the grand friends as we call them, and the families of the children and also the care staff, the nursery staff.

02:26

and the wider community as well, and the volunteers who are fantastic, and we couldn't really be doing this so effectively without them. And I just, you know, the way this set up is here is that when we first opened, we opened in a small bungalow, which happened to be in the grounds of the care home.

02:51

But because we've expanded, we have so much demand and it's been so effective, so brilliant actually and their care home have been so welcoming. They've actually let us come into the main building as well so that we have grown from our initial registration of 30 children, we're right up to 80 now with a long waiting list. And so the children are now placed both in the gardens, which is beautiful.

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who actually are bed bound or room bound or unable to participate can hear that there is life all around them, that they are part of community and that they're not excluded and isolated and somehow have no purpose. And it really is lovely. And now being embedded in the home as well, it means that it's much easier for our grandparents to just pop in and join us when they wish to, when they see what we're doing.

04:17

and help us out if we maybe need somebody to listen to a child or to help a child to read a book, to look at a book together. It's an amazing concept, I think. You know, there are really sort of a special concept that you have there. And I think really, really interesting. As you say, I can imagine the relationships that form.

04:41

as you go about your day-to-day work, and you've got that relationship between the staff and the children as you would have within any setting, but then you've got another level to it where you've got people, other people within the home who will come and join you at different points. To me, it's just a win-win. It is, yes, absolutely. And so you are all situated within the same building with a separate nursery within that building.

05:09

We are in a small bungalow which was there already. It was actually part of the maintenance team. It was the maintenance department. It's had various lives. I think it was a housekeeper's lodge at one time, but it's just part of the site. It's just down the path in the gardens. And we were able to, when we approached the home, let me go back a little bit and so I can actually explain how it all came about.

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06:06

And it seemed important to me when I started my setting that the children at the setting should have experiences of being and mixing and talking with, mingling with all age groups. So I approached Nightingale House and asked whether or not we could actually visit them originally, initially, just occasionally, and then gradually as the relationships grew, we used to visit more often.

06:36

Our set requirements were quite different. You know, we could put children in our car and parents came along with us. And things changed. It became more difficult to do that transporting. And one day I just approached the home and said, could we not actually have a nursery on your site, become part of the workings of the daily life of the community there, the older community in the care home.

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we were still able to keep our intergenerational program going throughout COVID safely, socially distanced, but giving those residents there an opportunity to still be part of community. So even though their families weren't able to visit them, we were there. We could actually do parallel activities through the windows, in parallel rooms, in the gardens, and create that variety of life and give interactions.

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that no other care home that I'm aware of was able to do. And it has just blossomed. We meet every day, three or four times a day, different age groups, meet with different households, as we call them, in the care home. And the program is differentiated depending on the age, abilities and needs of the children and of our grandparents.

08:34

Yes, that's amazing. I think one of the things that strikes me is that when you when you think about very young children, and then when you think about about about older people, more elderly people, the one thing that both of those age ranges have, on a daily basis, generally is time. And the time to the time to

09:01

do things together, to enjoy things together, to enjoy experiences together, when sometimes actually other groups within our society actually in terms of age ranges haven't necessarily got that time. You know, when you think about, you know, if you're a parent of young children, you've probably got a job and you're dashing from one thing to another and you're dropping children off and you're getting the tea ready and you're doing all kinds of different things.

09:26

Whereas actually you're bringing together two groups within society that have got that day-to-day time to spend with one another and that's incredibly valuable. Is that right? Is that how it pans out? Absolutely. It's fantastic. I mean, we have people who will not just give this unquestioning love and non-judgmental love, but they actually are able to be a resource for the nursing staff. They will listen to the children in a way that...

09:55

Many people feel they just haven't got time for. They will look at books and have to do stories with them. And the children will share secrets and share stories with our grandparents that they may not share with anybody else. And often there's so much on the same page. One of the things that worked very particularly well building those relationships is that when we opened, Nightingale Hammerson, the organization

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overseas, this Nightingale House is part of. They are a charity and they have charitable articles that are specifically for the benefit of the older, in this case the older Jewish community because it's a Jewish care home. And we are not, I mean children doesn't quite come into their articles so whatever they do, letting us use this space, being part of it, has to benefit their residents.

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that's otherwise they wouldn't be actually fulfilling their... And so we have an agreement that 20% of our places are reserved to the children of the care staff, very highly subsidized, and that builds again that relationship between the care staff and the people that they're caring for, the residents, but it also gives the children an extended family they may not otherwise have.

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because often the care staff don't have extended family near them. They've come from either abroad or they've had to relocate to the job. And here they have this incredible extended family with all our grandparents, all the residents. And that relationship, that bond between the care as well is made even stronger. Yes, and that sort of feeling of family and the sharing of stories, not just stories within a book.

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but our own stories are the stories of our life, if you like, and our day-to-day lives. That's important for children and also important for us as adults and the older people, your grand friends who are in the care home as well. It's amazing, it's amazing just to hear those stories. And the other day, we were actually doing some artwork and we were painting some things together.

12:19

And one of the residents turned around and said, this is so messy, I haven't had so much fun in years. It was just lovely to watch the laughter, the smile on her face, and that relationship with the child that they were doing the painting together. Really lovely. It's amazing, that is amazing. And brilliant to hear, really is. It's so refreshing to hear, because it's such a positive outlook.

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on what you're doing here and I think creating something really, really special. A lot of our listeners will be early years teachers and early years practitioners. And so I wanted to ask you about the practice. I'm sure lots of people listening will be really interested to know what it looks like on a day to day basis and what the practice is like. So, you know, what routines are in place, how a relationship, you've talked about that already a little bit, how relationships nurtured.

13:17

But also how do you plan for the different aspects of the EYFS framework? You know, so you've talked about talk and the importance of talk, and of course that will come into communication and language. What about other areas as well? You know, on a day to day basis, how does it work in terms of the practice? I mean, we are so fortunate because you work really closely with the team at Nightingale House. And so when it comes

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to actually, let me call them, annual events, celebrations and so on. The children are learning from, as it were, from life, lifelong learning. They're actually lived experiences. So they actually share the stories of their grand friends and that helps them to actually find their sense of belonging and their sense of place in the world.

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I think it's really important for children to experience the aging process as a natural phenomenon. It will, I think, I do believe that it will actually prevent many mental health issues in the future if they see this as being natural and as being part of them, as opposed to being overprotected that they don't actually know and understand. And so that's...

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comes from being together with our grandparents and actually hearing their stories. But within the actual home, we have a fantastic gardener called Gil, Phil, sorry, Phil, who is the gardener at Nightingale. And the children learn about plants and growing, and they've done this with their grandparents. They do gardening activities. And in fact, they have got, this is our early...

15:11

years children, they have achieved their level four in the Royal Horticultural Society Schools Gardening Award. There we are. We have bees at beehives, in fact these were introduced when we came and we was a joint project with the home and so the children together with their grandparents

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do honey extraction and they give each other little pots of honey and they pick out the crab apples and one year for the Jewish New Year they exchange gifts giving the... Grandfathers gave the children little pots of honey and the children made crab apple jelly and gave those to our Grandfathers. We work with the therapist departments, the physios and the OTs and we look at what kind of activities, what movements...

16:03

what therapeutic and developmental things each of the children need and the grandparents need. And actually they're very, very similar. So they both need to stimulate both sides of the brain. So we look at our program and we will actually design it so that the songs and the movements that we do in our action songs will go like across the body to actually develop.

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both sides of the brain and they will look up to developing core strengths. So for example we'll do a song like Run Rabbit, Run Rabbit, Run, Run, Run and they will be passing around their farmer and their rabbit and both the residents and the children have to learn to actually clasp and unclasp or with their hands. These are all things that happen for zero to, you know, birth to five years.

17:00

But these are the skills that they will need. And those are the same skills and attitudes that our grandparents need to maintain. So it actually works very closely together. And so we work with them, we work, as I said, with the gardening team and with the engagement team so that our craft activities will also be mutually therapeutic and developmentally beneficial. Then so much, we have buddied reading. So because, as you said,

17:29

There's not enough time in the day for everything that needs to be done and the staff are so busy with all the children. To actually have other people supporting them with stories and the love of books is amazing and so we've actually in our, we're just moving into a larger space again within the home. We're making sure that we've got nice chairs so we can sit together and share those stories together.

17:55

Oh, we also, because we want to actually share this with the wider community, we have an intergenerational community space, which is one day a week, there's a big room at the main concert hall of the home, is opened out to the wider community. And we have a baby and toddler group that's open to everybody. And we do intergenerational ballet with a beautiful, fantastic volunteer.

18:25

It's called Ballet with Brian and Brian was a soloist at Sadler's Wells. And then when he retired, he became a professor in Germany. And now, when he retired as a soloist, I should say, and when he fully retired, he moved back to London. And he comes every week and does an intergenerational ballet program with us. And we're working at the

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your grand friends, the residents of the care home, that they will have skills from their life, whatever it might be, whether it be playing the piano or as a painter or as a singer or whatever it might be, that actually you are able to tap into, that maybe you didn't even know about, that actually when you had built that relationship between the children,

19:52

and the Grand Friends that actually sort of certain skills or certain talents come to the fore and you know that's a good example isn't it? They're playing the piano. I think that's an amazing one. It's been amazing and also I mean we have some lovely photos of one of the Grand Friends who is 102 and she's showing the children how to knit.

20:18

But I do have one particular story which I think you'll enjoy. It was when we were talking about the ballet, and Brian showed us a photo of himself dancing with Margot Fontaine. And we were all very excited to see this photograph. And then we were talking about it, and one of our grand friends said, oh, well, I used to be a flamenco dancer. So then.

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Another one turned around and said, I was a Tilla girl. That's brilliant. And of course, our children come and they show us their ballet as they wear their little, you know, fluffy dresses, dressed up as Elsa. They're all showing us how beautifully they dance. But it really is fantastic to watch the children doing their plies with our grand friends, those that are standing. And...

21:15

there's a lot of activities we can do where the children will be seated and the grandparents seated, but also when the children will be actually mobile but still able to do the same activities, the same movements, I should say, as wheelchair-bound grandparents. Yes, yeah. And it struck me as well, you mentioned earlier on that the needs of your younger children

21:44

and also your grand friends as well are in some ways not that different. And I think that's very true in lots of ways. It made me think about learning environments for young children. One of the things that I often talk about, that we often talk about at Early Excellence, is the importance of consistency, of maintaining things.

22:12

in the same way every day as continuous provision. And the reason for that, of course, is that young children need that security to know that things are there, to know that the materials are always going to be there. They gain a sense of security and control over their environment by knowing the resources are there. They can plan ahead and have ideas, etc. And so that's important. But also, as you were talking, I was thinking, well, actually, in terms of environments for

22:40

for your grand friends, for the elderly, actually there are certain similarities there that actually as we get older, we do need that. We certainly need that continuity of knowing where certain things are, where certain things belong, in order to be able to find our way around, for example. And I wondered whether that had come into your thinking. Is that the case? Yes, I think enabling environments.

23:09

is crucial and that is enabling for everybody involved. Nightingale House is a very particular kind of care home. It is a central excellence for end of life care and dementia care. There are other co-located earlier settings that are being developed. The nursery that belong in Chester opened

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and share our experiences with the other organisations as their residents age as well and have different needs. But because there are so many residents that actually have dementia here, it's very important that they actually can find their way around, that they feel safe. And also, they feel safe with young children because they're here.

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about delayed gratification, something that is really very rare with young children nowadays. They want something so immediate. It has to be now. But they can see that their grandparents, they have to wait. They can't have everything, particularly those who are not mobile. And it really teaches the children resilience and that sense of responsibility and an independence and an awareness, an awareness of others that is lovely to watch.

25:31

Lovely to see. Yes, absolutely. I think from speaking to you, you get a real sense of the quality of what you're providing. I think that this is not about rushing through things, this is not about ticking things off on a list or just getting things ready for a display or whatever it might be, or ticking off certain activities. This is about providing quality experiences.

25:59

that you return to and you have a good reason for why you're doing it. You have a really clear vision for what it is, what the quality will look like within the practice. Thank you. I think so. I mean, the activities are the vessel. They are not the important thing. The results are not from the actual item or, you know, the thing, the tick list that you talk about. It's very much what the impact of what you're doing and why are you doing it.

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and what the children are going to take away from there, and what is going to actually really give them that quality of life and that awareness, and give them the life readiness that they need in order to actually contribute to society and benefit from society. I was recently at a memorial service for a friend, and...

26:58

the rabbi who was taking the service spoke about a particular prayer that is said in the Jewish faith daily, and how in the Bible it comes twice. And why does it come twice? And the reason is because the first time when you are about to be born, it is there to get to show you the potential of what you can do in this world. And the second time is your

27:26

said again towards the death, because it is the legacy of what you have contributed to society. And that was a beautiful kind of framework. And I feel very much that we are at the beginning of the children's lives giving them those skills, the attitudes, the sense of awe and wonder, the joy of life and all that they have that they can contribute to the world.

27:56

And we are able to actually show that our grandparents, not only have they already contributed to life a lot, and those things that they have done, they can share, and they can actually give those skills, knowledge, I should say, all those stories to the children, and their legacy will be carried on by those stories being remembered by these children. So many of our residents did not have children.

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do not have extended families because they were actually looking for life partners during the Second World War when so many people died. Here, they have an opportunity to leave that legacy through the stories and the experiences that they're giving with our children. Incredibly special, it really is. It's almost like you're talking about something that is beyond early years practice really, I think. You know, that it's about...

28:50

you're kind of bookending life, I suppose, really. You know, you've got the beginning of life and towards the end of life, haven't you? That kind of and thinking about life itself and enjoyment of life and real quality in life and, you know, enjoying the experience of life that is not just about ticking, as I say, ticking things off and getting things done and but actually taking the time to appreciate life itself and teaching children that.

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is something that we don't talk about enough, I think, probably, that actually was not just about learning, is it? It's not just about learning a particular area of learning or whatever it might be, but that overall appreciation of what it is like to live a full life and to enjoy life, I think is key, isn't it? Absolutely. It wants to give something that and to have that confidence to know that you yourself matter. You are part of...

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that chain of tradition, you are part of the chain of life. And that you actually are a link in everything and that you have so much to give yourself. And it gives that sense of purpose and value, but it is also to help you feel to know that you can love yourself. Yes, so powerful, really, really powerful. And the other thing I wanted to ask you about as well is that you are...

30:16

as we've said, you're a multi-generational setting, but you're also looking at the next generation of practitioners, you know, to keep that message going, to keep that quality going, it's about, of course, making sure that there are people, the next generation of practitioners, to keep that going, to keep that strong message going. And I understand that's something that you have started fairly recently in terms of in training, is that right?

30:46

Absolutely. I think there are a lot of organizations that do things together occasionally, that see themselves as actually having intergenerational programs. And some of them are fantastic, but quite often they aren't really as impactful as they should be. It's very nice to come and sing for our...

31:15

oldie friends, if I put it that way, at Christmas, you know. But actually, that's not building relationship. That's performance. It's only the first step. And I just think it's so important if we're going to actually build these programs, and you do not have to be co-located, you could actually have a relationship with a neighboring organization. It doesn't have to be a care home. It can be a friendship club. It can be a faith community with older people. Or, and they don't have to be older. It can be...

31:44

retired, they can have different needs, people who are isolated or lonely. The way to do it though, we want it to be as impactful as possible. So we've actually become also an education, we have a branch, an education and training center, the Apples and Honey Nightingale Education and Training Center, and we have the first NCFE accredited level three qualifications in intergenerational practice.

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which is very, very exciting. And you can find out more about that on our website. But also, that is not going to suit everybody, because it's a very intense course, as all Level 3 accredited courses will be. So we also have CPD accredited introductory courses, both online and in person, coming to actually see and experience what we do.

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And we've just had our first intergenerational summer school, residential, which was amazing. And people came and they lived, they had the choice of residential and non-residential, but the residential students actually stayed at the care home. They could eat with the care staff. I also arranged that they could actually meet different leaders within the care home.

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and the nursery staff so that they could hear about their experiences, the therapist team, the engagement team, and the carers, and also the nursery staff and volunteers, so that you could actually get the whole experience. And they joined in all our programs, and they also had the training workshops, and we had some expert speakers. And they even had a bingo night together. And it was just really very exciting.

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And this way, I'm hoping what we can do is get intergenerational practice on the map as part of career progression and as a very respected field in care and education. Yes, absolutely. And because as you say, I think at the moment, I think it's something that people are aware of that does exist. And I'd heard of your setting and I'd heard of other settings. I'd also heard of some research that has gone into the

34:09

the importance of it and the impact of that multigenerational work. But you're right, it's not by any stretch commonplace. It's not by any stretch something that you would see in every major city perhaps. It's not anywhere near that at this point. And so yes, you're absolutely right. Training needs to happen because it's not just tokenistic, is it? What you're talking about is not just...

34:36

as you say, a visit to the care home once a year to sing carols or whatever it might be, it's a regular thing. It's daily practice. It's something that is an investment in time and an investment in relationships that is a different thing. And it has to be reciprocal and it has to be mutually beneficial and it's much more complex than people realise as everything is. It's easy to do something superficially and feel that you're okay, but if you don't...

35:05

understand the different, you know, haven't peeled off the different layers of what intergenerationality is. You don't really know what it is that you're missing and you're not going to get the impact that you want. And one of the other things that we've been doing is we're working with Linking Generations Northern Ireland, which is part of the Beth Johnson Foundation, and with Generations working together at developing

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quality indicators in intergenerational practice. This has been National Lottery funded, this project, and it means that you actually have indicators as to how impactful your intergenerational programs are and how you can make them, or not make them more, but how you can, what's the word? It'll come to him, actually evaluate them and actually reflect on how. Yes.

36:01

whether they are, it's a reflective practice, that's what I'm looking for. And to eat that reflective practice, because there's an awful lot involved. It's not just the physical health and safety, and it's not just the activities, it's actually how accessible it is, how relationship-based it is, and just how purposeful it is. There's an awful lot involved that people are not aware of until they actually do some...

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research and some training. Yes, yeah, because you're right, I think, I think the danger is that if, if other settings take it on and decide to work in that way, that over time, what I think what sometimes happens or quite commonly happens in fact, is that something that starts off as a really special idea with real values and a real, really clear vision.

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sometimes gets watered down to the point where actually you don't really recognise it as what is being said it is, as what people are saying this is. Do you see what I mean? That does happen with other aspects of practice, I think. Yeah, I agree. And I think often the thing about intergenerational is that people do it to somebody. And actually, it's not being done to. People have to have agency. It's the same with all early years practice.

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We look at what we're doing, we look at the interests of the children, we look at what the children need and we adapt our programmes to help develop those skills, to extend those interests, to help to encourage the children to discover for themselves, to be curious. All these things are actually what we're looking to respond to their needs. And it's the same with intergenerational. It's just because somebody...

37:53

is sitting as it were, prone in a chair that you don't see. Actually, if you need to work with the care staff, that partnership of the old, between the people who are supporting the different age groups is crucial. It can't be just something that's done to somebody because then, I mean, I've had this one lady who comes regularly. She'll come to our intergenerational poetry, she'll come to the ballet, she loves the

38:23

I cannot say anything. She hasn't got, she's non-verbal. She's non-verbal and she's not moving, but she has a one-to-one carer to support her. Whose face lights up every time she comes because she can sense what that lady is doing. She tells to me, she can hear, she's locked in, she can hear everything. She's responding, she loves it. Now I wouldn't know that.

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And there are lots of people who would turn around and say, oh, don't bring her. She can't take, she's not getting anything out of this. It's not true. And it's not for us to make these judgments. And just because a child doesn't particularly want to come to something and join in the intergenerational program at a certain time doesn't mean they aren't going to grow into it and suddenly find that they have reached a different level of awareness that they actually want to be involved and they're going to interact differently.

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So I think it's really important for us to actually respond to everybody involved from where they're at, not from our preconceptions. Yes, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I find your work absolutely fascinating. I think it's so interesting. And as you say, there's real depth there and real understanding and real sensitivity there in terms of the relationships that you have, but also that you foster and that you nurture as well within the setting. I think it's amazing.

39:46

It really is. I understand that you're a hub as well. Well, I just say I was very lucky to discover this passion because I'm not a spring chicken myself. But I have discovered something that means so much, not just to me, but to so many people involved. And it is and it's something that people start talking about it and people's faces light up because really it is a light. And this is a way for the future. And one of the things that's so important for us is

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that it should be a really positive field that everybody is modeling what intergenerationality is. What is inte It is bringing everybody from all generations to work together to benefit everybody. And so what we've done, working with Sue Reed from the Beth Johnson Foundation, and the Beth Johnson Foundation, actually, they were the ones who actually

40:46

gave the definition for intergenerational practice that his university accepted. It was written by Alan Hatanyo, who was the CEO then. And we have created a, are creating a hub, a grassroots organizations network of intergenerational practitioners, where we can actually share practice, have a center where we can keep

41:15

all the research that's going on, it will be all together so that people will know where to go to, if they want to find practice, if they want to learn about things, where we can actually benefit from each other's experiences without actually having to reinvent the wheel. We have a steering group and we are called Generation All, which is Generation and All put together.

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And we're doing our official kind of launch with our new branding in September. So this is perfect timing for us. And it very much is a grassroots organization that we actually want to show how you can work together to create a cohesive society. It is not competitive. It is very much, let's help each other, let's support each other and let's make a difference. Let's change this world. Absolutely.

42:08

Judith, it has been wonderful to talk to you. Thank you so much for your time today. It's been brilliant to talk through the setting, the thinking, the vision behind it, and the real quality of what you provide for everybody involved, I think. It's really, really, really inspirational. I think I probably overuse the word inspirational, but in this case, it absolutely is. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for inviting me to share.

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share something that I think is so important and that I love and I know that you will all love too. And if you want to find out any more please do contact me I'm always happy to share.

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So there you have it. Thank you very much to Judith for joining us on the podcast this week. What we'll do is we'll add links to the podcast information so that if you want to you can find out more about Judith's inspirational work. Definitely well worth doing that. Okay, that's it for this week everybody. Have a great week and we will see you next time.