"It's hard to see and notice at the speed with which we move."

Our host, Marci Mowery, sits down with Ben Moyer, who is an author and longtime outdoor journalist from the Laurel Highlands of southwestern Pennsylvania. They chat about a life spent paying close attention to the natural world and inviting others to do the same.

Ben's connection to nature began early, shaped by his father, who took him fishing at Dunbar Creek, where the pull of a trout on the line left an impression that never faded.

Those formative experiences, rooted in the traditional pursuits of hunting and fishing, became the lens through which he eventually found his voice as a writer. High school English teachers who recognized something in him helped point the way. Thoreau's Walden and Aldo Leopold's Sand County Almanac confirmed it.

Over decades of writing (including 559 consecutive columns for Pennsylvania Outdoor News and a monthly column called "The Wild Around" in Pennsylvania Game News), Ben has argued, quietly and persistently, that wonder doesn't require travel to exotic places.

It lives in your backyard, in a squirrel's improvisational genius, in the dusk flight of a woodcock over a boggy meadow in spring.

He navigates the grimmer realities of environmental change all with the same philosophy. That is, acknowledge the losses honestly, but never lose sight of what remains.

Finally, Ben talks about the opening of Laurel Caverns as Pennsylvania's 125th state park, a moment both men salute as proof that patient, principled stewardship can still win.

Key Topics:

• From Fishing Rods to the Written Word (01:15)
• Thoreau, Leopold, and the Books That Shaped Him (06:05)
• Writing for Readers Who Don't Think of Themselves as Outdoor People (10:16)
• Writing About Environmental Loss Without Losing Hope (13:29)
• Conservation Partners Worth Mentioning (20:49)
• What Does a Meaningful Outdoor Experience Look Like? (27:01)
• Favorite Places: Grandfather's Farm and Dunbar Creek (31:41)
• Wild Foods, Ramps, and Seasonal Rituals (32:14)
• Laurel Caverns: Pennsylvania's 125th State Park (40:31)

Resources:

• Chestnut Ridge Trout Unlimited: https://chestnutridgetu.org/
• Pittsburgh Quarterly: https://pittsburghquarterly.com/
• Quiet Article: https://paparksandforests.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/10/2025-Fall-Newsletter.pdf
• Ben Moyer | Muck Rack: https://muckrack.com/ben-moyer

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I think it's really important for every community to have some voice that reminds it of its natural assets, and to keep your eyes open, to keep your ears open, and just doesn't even have to be controversial, just be aware you.

Imagine a place where stress fades, fresh air fills your lungs and adventure awaits around every corner. Welcome to think outside. The podcast that inspires you to explore, connect and embrace the outdoors. Welcome to think outside with the Pennsylvania parks and forests foundation. I'm your host. Marcy Mowry, today, we are joined by Ben Moyer, an author and journalist whose work brings together storytelling, science and a deep curiosity about how we relate to the natural world, from environmental change to the human experience of place. Ben's writing challenges us to look closer and think differently. Welcome Ben. Thank you, Marcy.

I'm so pleased to be here. I'm so pleased to be asked to be a part of this podcast.

Well, I appreciate you being here, and we haven't talked spoken in a while. You joined our book discussion on your book smoke to see by and it was a really nice experience to learn a little bit a bit more about your origin story and what connected you to being an author and a writer. Yes, what first drew you to writing about the natural world and environmental issues? That's a really

good question. I think that's a good question for any writer or communicator. I can't really identify that point in my life. I can only say that I know that well. I remember when I was very young, I was fortunate that my dad took me fishing and hunting. I grew up around here, around Ohio pile, and that was what you did then for recreation. This is a germ of it. I think, to me, the activities of hunting and fishing were more than just recreation, and I sensed that at a very young age, they weren't just a pastime. To me, they were a way to access something that was meaningful and profound and authentic and everlasting, and it just hooked me. And then, as I grew older, I always enjoyed something like this, a conversation about nature and our relationship to it. So in a way, it was natural to try to expand that to the written word, although I will say that I did have a couple of teachers in high school, English teachers that were influential to me and made me think about literature in a way that I wouldn't have and and revealed to me that I might have some abilities that I hadn't thought about. So when you put all that together, I think, you know, you try to write, yeah, and,

you know, it makes me think about how many people have a connection to an educator who saw something in them that pointed it out to them, that changed the trajectory of their life.

Yes, yeah, you never know.

No, you don't. Right. Is there a particular childhood memory that really stands out for you about time in the outdoors with your father?

Yeah, there are many, but I do remember one time when I think I was at the age where you can barely remember something as an adult. I mean, I was that young, and my dad and his brother, my uncle took me trout fishing at Dunbar Creek, which isn't far from where we're sitting. And it's a beautiful place. It's a unchanged beautiful place. Most of it is on State game lands, 51 and I remember my uncle hooking a trout and giving me the rod and the experience of feeling the trout pull and tug and splash and jump, and then its colors when we caught the fish that stands out in my mind.

Yeah, I love that. I was thinking about that this weekend because it was the opening of trout, and I saw a lot of multi generational groups out fishing, and I thought, wow, that's shaping the life it is, that child it is, and your proof, I suppose I am

Yes, and I think that in many ways, that's one of our diminishing opportunities to share trans generational experience like that, the outdoors and access to the outdoors.

Well, you you have that opportunity with your grandchildren. I do, yes, I

do particularly my granddaughter, because she lives near us, so we get to see her more often. But I do try to my grandsons live in another state, and I try to send them books and so forth, things like that. But my granddaughter and I, we've done so many things. We've paddled canoes together. She's 10 now, but ever. Since she was able, we paddled canoes and we make bee bomb tea and we make shoe Mac lemonade, and last night, we were collecting some ramps in the mountains near here. Yes, and so I'm very proud that she's interested and even eager to participate in those kinds of seasonal rituals which connect you to a place very, very intimately and deeply. And I, I try to teach her how to take a ramp out of the ground with minimal disturbance, and that's important, and put the put the soil back and try not to disturb the surrounding wildflowers.

And yeah, I think when we work, when we engage with children at a young age, it helps them to develop those values and that appreciation and that connection, so that maybe it'll be with them the rest of their lives. They might maybe stray for a little bit. You know, as they go through 13 years, that's natural. Hopefully they come back to it. I hope so. Yeah, well, you mentioned something. You said you send your grandson's books, and I was wondering if there is a particular book, not one of your own, that really influenced you and the work that you do?

Yes, I would say. And in fact, coincidentally, there's a television series that is on running right now on PBS, about the life of Henry David Thoreau, and I've been watching it. My wife and I've been watching that, and I can't remember if I picked it up because of a class or I don't remember why, but I read his Walden Pond when I was quite young, and it is so powerful. I think when you encounter an author who articulates things that you have thought about but weren't able to really congeal those thoughts. You just sense those thoughts, those those inclinations. But then you encounter an author who articulates it so clearly and it's so affirming, because you say to yourself, hey, you know my ideas make sense, at least to me, and here's someone else that feels that way. So maybe it's worth sharing with someone else that attitude or that perspective, that context, that observation, yeah, Henry David Thoreau also Sand County Almanac by Aldo Leopold. And I really value that one, because Marcy, as I said, I be my introduction to nature and the outdoors was through the traditional pursuits of hunting and fishing, because that's what we did in a rural upbringing. But I think in modern life today, unfortunately, those two things sometimes don't cross paths as much as they should. Hunting and fishing is sometimes seen as a part from nature, appreciation or conservation, if you will. Although I know that's not true, but they are seen as being a part. But the book Sand County Almanac, to me, it really affirms that someone who participates in nature in that way of hunting and fishing, can also have that deep affiliation, that deep love of the natural world and that deep respect, even to the point of sharing it with other people, trying to convey it to the wider world, that viewpoint,

yeah, for Adam Leopold, that time when he was hunting or fishing, that's when he was making his observations. That's right, that's where he was developing his connection to the land was also where he was seeing the changes that were occurring and things that brought alarm to him, right? And Ben, I have to say, you do that for people with your writing.

Well, that's humbling. That's humbling. Thank you, Marcy, you do.

And I was we were meant talking a little bit before we started recording that when you retired from the Pennsylvania outdoor news, and you're still writing, but just for this one publication, at the point that you retired, you had written 559 consecutive columns, or over half a million words. Yes, that's true. That's astounding. That's true.

Well, thank you. Yes. Began writing for them when the publication started in about 2002 2003 and it comes out every two weeks, and I think about a subject, and also, at that same time, I also wrote a bi weekly column for my local paper, but I had, I had set it up so they were staggered. So I wrote one one week and one the other week. Smart thing. So I did a column every week, but for two different publications. But many people will say, how do you think of something to write about every week? And I don't know. It's, I hate to say it this way, and I don't mean to come off this way, but it's it's not difficult once you get in. It's like anything else once you have a certain muscle memory, or a certain way of thinking about things, a certain way of being attentive to things around you, either in the natural world or sometimes for outdoor news in the political world, or not so much the political. World is the natural resource management world, you'll see things that merit discussion or further investigation.

Yeah, yeah. And sometimes you're you're presenting a view to bring about dialog and conversation.

Yes, for sure, yeah.

You recently wrote an article for our newsletter on quiet, and we got a lot of feedback, because people were like, wow, I hadn't been thinking about it this way. And this is a really important topic, and it was a really good piece. Many good pieces.

Thank you. I appreciate you asking me to do that. Yes, what

makes a story about nature resonate with readers who may not see themselves as outdoor people?

I think that it's something that helps people to see that you don't necessarily have to go to some exotic place to experience nature or to have a meaningful experience, an authentic experience. You don't have to go to places that are world renowned. You can encounter things that are worthy of your contemplation and Marvel right outside, right that's for most people, hopefully right outside your own home. If you have a wood lot, if you have a creek, a beach, there's always something that is marvelous. And if there's something in a piece of writing that directs that person's attention to that, then it's meaningful, even if they had not thought of themselves as an outdoor person before that.

Okay, when you when you were mentioning these things, I'm thinking even I get sometimes I get fascinated watching the squirrels in my yard, and their thought process of trying to break into my squirrel poof feeders. I mean, they'll go through all sorts of antics, and they entertain me. Oh, definitely, which makes me start thinking about their thought process. And you know how they're bringing it together.

And I can identify with that so much the particularly the part where you you told about them trying to work out a way to invade your feeder. Because I actually wrote something one time gray squirrels were eating up all the bird seed in my bird feeders, and I was trying to think of a way to exclude them. And I cut off a gallon milk jug. I cut the bottom off of a gallon plastic milk jug, and I slid it down over the wire that hangs the feeder. They were confounded by this smooth, hard plastic that they couldn't get a grip on, and they were reluctant to climb down the wire to get on the feeder. So in one of my columns for someplace, I wrote about, hey, I solved this problem, and even took a photo of a squirrel perched above this feeder and this milk jug. And it wasn't about three days after that was published that the squirrels just finally figured it out. They figured it out. They just slid down over it, and I accomplished nothing except write something that turned out that did not be accurate, that you then share, well,

maybe don't try. It didn't really work, right?

Yeah, just that itself can be marvelous to think about when you think about the adaptability and the the determination of a wild thing to access that resource, no matter what obstacle you try to put in

its way. Zack, you're matching wits with them. That's right. Yeah, yeah. You write about environmental challenges as well as experiences in nature. And how do you navigate writing about something that might be perceived as depressing or challenging or making people feel hopeless? How do you navigate presenting that information, but helping people retain hope or perhaps take action?

That's an excellent question, and that's almost very much like what I talked about a few minutes ago when I said sometimes you encounter something in literature that articulates something that you'd thought about yourself. Well, this very question does that? Because I think if you're someone who's attuned to nature, there are, I don't know, are there any other way to say it? There are so many negative trends and outcomes that it's it is sometimes depressing. I don't know how else to say it. We were talking about Hemlock a little while ago. That's an excellent example. If you're an outdoor person, or if you've been outdoors, if you know much about the outdoors in this part of the world, Hemlock is absolutely Keystone. I'm a trout fisherman, and hemlocks are all along our trout streams. And number one, they're beautiful. And number two, they're very important in ecology in this part of the world, but they're under attack, if that's the right word, by an invasive insect pest, the hemlock wooly adelgid. And in many parts of the state, we've been fortunate so far here it's. We haven't had the widespread mortality of some other places, but this insect threatens the existence of hemlock in our state, our state tree, for goodness sakes. So that is depressing, and I have written about that. I think that what you have to answer your question as a communicator, you just have to be aware of and experience yourself and then convey to other people that there's still, no matter what so far we've done to this planet, there's still a lot of wonderful experiences to be had. Authentic. I keep using the word authentic because I think there are so many experiences today that are just the opposite, they're provided by somebody else for you, that you pay for, or that goes through some kind of technology. But nature, experience in nature is authentic, and I think that's one of the most important things about it. But there are still so many wonderful experiences available to us that we have to think about our children and grandchildren in the future, and whatever we can save for them, we have to do that. So that's why it's worth trying to appreciate what we still have, while at the same time being aware of what we've lost and are losing.

Yeah, you mentioned the hemlock and the hemlock wooly adelgid. I am from a part of the state where we have lost a lot of our Hemlock trees, but you also model behavior of being involved. You were talking about being involved in this invasive plant group that looks at challenges that are happening and tries to get out and you're treating the hemlocks. We were talking about how excited we were that we had a long, cold winter, right? You know, because it slows down the Adelgid, right? So I appreciate that you're not just speaking about it, but you're taking action. And that role modeling might encourage other people to take action on some of these environmental challenges.

Yes, I think it is contagious, I think to some extent, to be involved I might have mentioned to you earlier that I've been active in Trout Unlimited for many years, so since 1995 we have a local chapter. Here. It's the Chestnut Ridge chapter of Trout Unlimited. And Hemlock treatment along streams is just one of the things we do. And by the way, I acknowledge that it's not ideal. It's not an ideal solution, because you use chemicals, right? It's a situation where you're weighing one outcome against another outcome, and you're hoping for the intervention of cold weather in the meantime to give you more time, or give this species more time. But anyway, I've been active in Trout Unlimited since 1995 in a local chapter. It's a national organization, and I see it as a way to lend a lot of credibility and prestige, if that's the right word, to local efforts. I think by becoming a chapter, affiliating with a national, credible organization like that local people can attract funding, can attract media attention, and accomplish things in their part of the world. And I'm deeply proud to say that our trout and limited chapter has we there's a little stream. I mentioned Dunbar Creek earlier. There's little stream back in the game lands that flows into Dunbar Creek. It's called glade run. And if you wanted to see a classic mountain stream from Western Pennsylvania or central Appalachia, however you want to geographically term it, it would be glade run, with its series of waterfalls and pools and runs and with lined with Hemlock and boulders and Rhododendron and Black Throated Blue warblers in the foliage. And it's the quintessential place of this part of the world, but it was polluted by abandoned mine workings in the headwaters, which are outside the game lands. The Game Commission had nothing to do with that. The workings were outside upstream from the game lands, but it flows through then eight miles of public land where people could have fished before it joins Dunbar Creek and another many miles and then the yaki Guinea river. But our organization, I'm very proud of this, refused to accept that there could not be any trout in this stream, this beautiful place. So we have been raising money and built treatment systems for the acid mine drainage, and we have repeatedly treated three tributaries to this stream. They're little, little headwater streams with alkaline sand. It's a low tech process, but it works. And then I like to believe that our work attracted the attention of Western Pennsylvania Conservancy's watershed program, which a much a larger or private organization with professional staff and professional capabilities in science and. In law and fund accruement accrual and so they're working in that same watershed now, and have built four acid mine drainage treatment systems. And there are now wild brook trout living in that stream where they they were not there 30 years ago when we started this. So that was a long way around to say that. I'm very proud of that well,

and you should be. I mean, we abandoned mine drainage is one of the primary sources of pollution in Pennsylvania's waterways, and that, you know, it takes a lot of dedicated volunteers like yourself to manage these natural treatment systems, or these low tech treatment systems to bring those water back to the quality and to allow the native wildlife, native aquatic vegetation and fish to come back.

So true, so true. Can I mention just a few other partners that we've had in this too? Absolutely, California University's environmental department, mountain Watershed Association, which I think we're very fortunate in this region to have an organization like that, who who takes this conservation work a little further into the arena of advocacy and even legal action, sometimes one so I think they're we're very fortunate to have them, Dunbar, Sportsman's club, the local townships, Wharton Township and Dunbar Township, all those entities have contributed in one way or another to this effort to restore these streams.

I think part of what I'm hearing you say is that if people are interested, they just need to look around. There may already be an organization that are doing some of the things that that are important to them, right? Or they could connect with people and perhaps start a local initiative to address an environmental or conservation issue.

I think you're right about that. And attitude is so important. I have a sense that we had really committed people in this organization I'm very proud of, and their attitude was so positive that it attracted all these other partners and who were more than willing to do whatever they could. And the Game Commission, by the way, didn't want to leave them out. You know, we have to access the game land sometimes with equipment, with trucks, with materials, which motorized access to game lands is taboo, which I believe it should be right. But for this purpose, the Game Commission has worked with us when they could, in being careful not to intrude on the hunting seasons or other more orthodox uses of game lands, they've done everything they could to help us to accomplish this. So I wanted to

acknowledge that, yeah, and I want to acknowledge you and your colleagues for the work that you've done. Well. Thank you. Well, you know, it's interesting, because we were just talking about game lands. We are sitting in a state park. What role do you think access to public lands play in shaping environmental awareness?

I think it's absolutely priceless and unquestionable. In my opinion, I think that number one, if we didn't have public lands, if we if we didn't have agencies to administer and hold and care for accept significant places, then they would just they would not be what they are now, they would be diminished by society's uses. Not to say that we can't have society's uses, whether we all know that's important, but some places merit recognition for their own inherent character and their own inherent integrity. That and we can take from those places things that the private market does not provide to us. It doesn't provide the private marketplace does not provide awe. It doesn't provide wonder. It doesn't provide beauty, things that we don't even talk about much in our culture. I think that's the right word in our culture. But public lands do because they and all they have to do is just protect what was already there. And public lands are a place where everybody can go. Everybody is welcome. It doesn't matter how much money you have, it doesn't matter how much education you have, it doesn't matter what color your skin is or what your religion is, you're welcome there. And the only challenge is that a lot of people, because their background, and we touch on this before, don't have the advantage of knowing about these places or have a challenge to reach them and experience them the way that you and I know about because of our backgrounds and experiences, and I know that's something that your organization, Pennsylvania parks and Forest Foundation, does, put a lot of work into trying to make people aware of public lands that otherwise might not be, and also helping them to access them and to understand. Understand them once they're there. So I salute you for that. Thank you. Because I think the more people value these places, the more likely it is for us to retain them.

I agree. You know, it's not just about monetizing the natural resources, having that sense of all, having that sense of wonder, having that clean water that's coming through, that forested ecosystem, that pure air and like we're sitting in Ohio pile. And no matter how many times I pull up to Ohio pile and I see the falls, I am just my it takes my breath away. Yes, you know. And there's a lot of research that shows all can help increase creativity, can reduce stress, you know. So there are a lot of positive reasons for protecting these places.

So true, so true. And this place is, there's nothing like this. I mean, I personally think this could be, it could be a national park, not that it isn't good enough as it is to be a state park, but it could be. It merits that kind of wider appreciation. There is so much you can do here within this 21,000 acres that surround us here, so much you can do. Can fish, can hunt, you can paddle the river. You can hike for weeks here. You can camp botanize. Botanize. Oh, that's bird watch. Yes, bicycle, cross country, cross country, skiing, all those things. We're just scratching the surface. Yeah, paint, right?

Poetry, yeah, photograph, that's right photography, because there's so many different ways that we interact and so many different ways that we can appreciate, right, right? Yeah. And I think that's important to recognize the differences that we bring you. Know that's part of accessibility is is looking at ways that people want to interact, right with these places and providing those opportunities, right? It is very important. So two, two questions, quickly, what does a meaningful outdoor experience look like to you today.

Okay, that's a good question. It's an experience that you have, that you feel, that you participate in, that is in some way direct with the landscape. If you catch a trout, particularly if it's a wild trout, and as opposed to a stock trout, which stock trout are important in recreational fishing, they are very important. But there we also have wild trout that are not stocked, and they live in beautiful places that need to be protected. But it's an experience that's direct, like that. It's direct and intimate, and there's no technology involved in it, or a minimal technology involved in it. I think I was telling you earlier, my my granddaughter and I last evening, and my daughter and son in law, we went out in the mountains and we harvested some ramps, which some people in some parts of the state call them wild leeks. It's Allium tricoxum is the Latin name. It's an herb that comes up very early in the spring. And for generations, it's been a ritual for people in in this region to go out and dig these up and eat them in various ways, because all winter they didn't have any fresh food, they had preserved dried beans or salted meat, at least back in the day, and this, this tradition, this ritual, has continued. And so my family and I went out last night and and harvested some of these. And we do it in a way that we we try to do it in a way that creates minimal disturbance to the surrounding plants the soil, and take them home and have them as part of a meal or supplement a meal. They're very spicy. They're very pungent in their flavor. But that, to me, is a meaningful experience, because, number one, there was minimal technology. Number two, there was physical effort involved, which I think is important, and there was direct contact with the native landscape, the native landscape as it was before we even were here, that's deeply meaningful to me.

You brought to mind an experience that I had on a multi day canoe trip where we were doing a portage, and we gathered blueberries during the portage, and then we had a campfire that night, and we had a reflector oven, and I made a blueberry tart, and it was the best tart because it was the effort and the connection. And yes,

yes, you're right. Food is something that's overlooked sometimes as a way to connect to nature, and that really closes a circle. It really does. If you can take something with from nature without overdoing it, yes, very important, yes, and then ingest it into your own body. It's communion, as in religion, it's to me, it's communion with a place Yes, with everything Yes, and it's extremely meaningful. I feel that way about my venison. If I kill a deer, I'd like to cut it up myself and butcher it. And cut it very nicely, and wrap it up and and then when you share that with someone else, you give it to someone else. It's, I think it pays back both ways. Just the act of sharing that is

very meaningful. I agree. So couple of quickies. What's your favorite place that you've written about?

I'd have to say my grandfather had an old farm over in Greene County, which I'm fortunate that we still have in the family. And we use that place to fish and hunt. There's a pond there, and that's one of my favorite places, okay, because of the memories of people, my dad, my kids, friends, and the other is the headwaters of the Dunbar Creek watershed. So I fished there when I was a little kid, and always have, except for when I lived away from here for a while. And like I said, I've been to other places. I've been to Alaska twice. I've fished in Alaska, and that was wonderful. But I think you can live your life in two different ways. You can either try to experience as much of the world as you can, which is perfectly legitimate, but my own tendency is to just pick one place. In this case, it happens to be where I was born and grew up, and get to know that place really well. It's weather, it's soil, it's vegetation, it's birds, it's reptiles, and then to even participate in them in direct ways, like we've been discussing. So because I'm able to do those things at my grandfather's old farm in Greene County and Dunbar Creek watershed, those are my favorite places.

Dunbar was, was going to be one of my guesses. And I love the idea of your grandfather's farm as well. I have to think that there's a hybrid too, that you can explore the world, but come back to place.

No doubt, no doubt. Yes, I carry that a little too far.

Yeah, maybe that's my model. So I don't want to think it doesn't exist. No, I was too binary. What is one action that listeners can take this week to reconnect themselves to nature?

Okay? This week, this we are the seventh of April. I suppose this can theoretically be heard all over the world, but we're in western Pennsylvania right now, the Allegheny Mountains, which are referred to around here as the Laurel Highlands, which is a wonderful name, but it's a branding. It's a brand, right for this part of the state. The actual geological name of where we are is the Allegheny Mountains. But anyway, this is a wonderful time to go out in the woods and see wildflowers. They're blooming right now, the early spring wildflowers before the sun, before the canopy of the forest excludes the sunlight. There are dozens of beautiful flowers that bloom in the forest, and they're all native. Well, there are many that aren't native now, but look for the native one. Get to know those. That's a good way. We were talking about wild foods. Morels will be coming up soon, or they may be up more that's a wild fungus that's highly prized.

Yes, people generally don't share where they're gathering morels.

They do not. When I was a kid, we used to haven't done it for a while. We used to eat poke weed. I don't know if you've ever eaten poke weed. I have not. You know, poke weed, I do. It's a tall rank plant with purple berries on I thought the

berries were poisonous. They are okay.

But when it, when it first erupts from the ground about a week from now, around here, the green shoots kind of look like asparagus, okay? And if you cut them when they're very small, like that, and boil them. People, the older people that I knew when I was a kid said you have to boil them in three waters, boil them, dump it, which they're pretty mushy by then, I think they were being over cautious. They're trying to remove the toxin, but you do that and serve them with some bacon grease and vinegar, and they're delicious, like a collard green, like a collard green, they're absolutely delicious. So if you know a little bit about wild foods or look for wild flowers, that's a wonderful way to connect with nature at this time of year. I've also

made a pesto out of garlic mustard, which is an invasive plant, but if you catch it young enough, you can cook with it and feel good about eating it. Yes, taking

it out of the system, right? It is so persistent, though. It is so persistent. It is persistent.

And I do want to add a disclaimer that in state parks and state forests for personal consumption, you can gather some of these foods that we were talking about, but you cannot gather them for market purposes, right?

There are some, I know, some nice BlackBerry patches on the state park here, but as you said, you don't sell them, yeah,

Blackberry season, right? Maybe you'll share with me, if I don't tell anybody. So where can list? Listeners follow your work or learn more about the issues that you care about. Okay, I'm

very fortunate now to I write a monthly column in Pennsylvania Game News. That's the official publication of the Pennsylvania Game Commission, which is our state's Wildlife Management Agency. I write a column in there called the wild around it's in there every month, and it's about some species of bird or mammal or sometimes some plant upon which birds or mammals depend. I do that every month. I also write frequently for Pittsburgh quarterly magazine, which is a magazine. I think this is important because it's, it's not a magazine for I'm making quotes here, mercy, outdoor people. It's a magazine. It's actually urban oriented, but it's, it's readership is curious and interested. It's a good magazine about nature in western Pennsylvania and environmental issues in western Pennsylvania. I write for them frequently. In fact, I have an article coming out in the summer issue. It's quarterly four times a year the summer the next one will have an article I wrote about Dunkard Creek, which is a stream in Greene County, which you may remember this. It was like French Creek in northwestern Pennsylvania. It was one of the most biologically diverse and pristine streams in western Pennsylvania, but in 2009 a perfect storm of pollution events and the resulting bloom of a salt water algae that shouldn't even be here, yeah, but it can. It can live in some of the effluent from was apparently from the fracking industry. Got into Dunker Creek, and that algae bloomed in profusion, and it killed everything for 32 miles, every fish, every muscle, every salamander, for 32 miles of stream. But anyway, that was in 2009 the fish and boat Commission has been working for years to culture proliferate freshwater mussels, which some people, people refer to as the livers of our rivers. They filter, because they filter the water, they're reintroducing freshwater native freshwater mussels to Dunker Creek, and I got to participate in that whole process, and I read an article about that in Pittsburgh quarterly. I also do the outdoors for my local paper here the union town Herald standard, which I very much enjoy, because I was telling my wife about this the other day that I think it's really important for every community to have some voice that reminds it of its natural assets, and to keep your eyes open, to keep your ears open, and just doesn't even have to be controversial, just be aware of fact, that's one of the quotes I loved about this show I'm watching about Henry David Thoreau, let someone ask, what was his message? What do you think his message was? Some one of the commentators asked someone else, and they said their response was, his message was to wake up. It's good summary, and, yeah, be aware of what's around. I think that's the role that I'm fortunate to fulfill in my local paper is to help people around here see what we have.

Yes, I would add to wake up is to slow down. Right? It's hard to see. It is notice at the speed with which

we move. It is, it's so much is that reminds me of something, and I don't want to run over our time, but I went just a few nights ago to a Woodcock walk at Laurel Hill State Park. Wonderful. I'm sure you know Kim Peck, I do. She led she and she has a couple other environmental education specialists that work with her, which I don't know personally, so I can't remember their names, but they did a Woodcock walk. It was well attended. I'd say there were almost 30 people that came to see the annual spring courtship flight. I would love to see that of the American Woodcock. And you go out into a boggy meadow and you listen for the birds to make their characteristic Beep, beep, Pete, Pete noise. And then they erupt into sudden flight in the dusk sky, and it is extremely difficult to see them. I think it I had a hard time seeing them. I have seen them before, but a long time ago, but I went to this on on purpose, because I wanted to write about it in my game news column the Woodcock. But they're very difficult to see. It made me think of what you just said a minute ago about how we need to slow down in order to notice things. And I think we live our lives at such a pace that we're only aware of the most obvious things because we go too fast and we're too preoccupied. But. Something like this woodcock, only the male springs into flight and the female, the hen, is sitting in the brush somewhere watching him. When do I like his dick? Yes, but they must. They have to be so attentive and so tuned in to watch this flight, because it's it's difficult for the human eye to pick it up. At least I found it that way. But anyway,

yeah, well, Ben, it's been a wonderful conversation, and I do feel we have so many more stories to talk about that we're going to have to have you back. I'd love to,

I'd love to, I think your work is so important in calling attention to our parks and state forests, state parks and state forests, including, by the way, and I think you were there the unveiling yesterday of Laurel cavern State Park. Yes, our 125th which is not very far from here, yes. And our first underground, first underground. I've known the kales for a long time, the people that donated the land, and I'm very proud of them. I know how bad they wanted that to happen, and I'm very happy for them and everybody in the state.

Yes, it was a great moment. I imagine it was a little bittersweet for the kales, because they've been stewards of this place for so long, and they're handing it over into good hands, but Right. Be hard, yep, but

I do. I salute your work, and I really appreciate your having me here. Great. Well. Thank you very much. Ben. You

Dan, thank you for listening to think outside, where every episode invites you to discover new places, build confidence and find inspiration in nature. Love the show. Subscribe for more inspiration, share with a fellow Explorer, and let's keep thinking outside together for more resources and inspiration. Visit think outside podcast.org,