In today's solo episode, host Claire Bown celebrates the one-year anniversary of The Art Engager book with our first-ever Ask Me Anything format. She answers 10 practical questions from listeners about facilitating guided experiences in museums.

From how long to let people look at artworks to building psychological safety with established groups, Claire tackles the real challenges educators and guides face every day. Does everyone have to talk to be actively engaged? How do you pull a group back when disengaged? What's a good way to redirect someone who's going on too long? When should you share the artist's perspective if the group's discussion is quite different?

Resources mentioned in this episode:

• Book anniversary quick survey
• The Art Engager: Reimagining Guided Experiences in Museums (Claire's book)
• Episode 148: How to create active engagement on guided experiences
• Episode 142: Building Trust and Psychological Safety on guided experiences
• The 10 Questioning Practices (QPs) from The Art Engager
• The Thinking Museum® Approach

The Art Engager is written and presented by Claire Bown. Editing is by Matt Jacobs and Claire Bown. Music by Richard Bown. Support the show on Patreon.

As mentioned in the episode, share what's been most helpful from The Art Engager book and what you'd like to see next: Share your input here.

https://clebown.typeform.com/to/l9e6mzN9

Hello and welcome to a new episode of The Art Engager.

I'm Claire Bown and today we're doing something we've never done before.

Our first ask me anything episode.

You sent in lots of questions and I'm spending this episode answering them.

But before we dive in, a quick note.

As you know, I share a lot of free resources, these podcast episodes, all

the guides and downloads on my websites because I believe this kind of content

should be accessible to everyone.

And if you've been benefiting from any of these resources, there are two

ways that you can support my work.

You can become a friend of The Art Engager Podcast on Patreon, or you can pick

up a copy of my book, The Art Engager.

Both really help to keep all this content free and accessible.

Links are in the show notes as always.

So let's get started with today's show.

So this week marks one year since my book, The Art Engager Reimagining Guided

Experiences in Museums was published.

I can't believe it's been a year already.

Now I think I spent the first few months after publication in

a bit of a dream world, not quite convinced it was actually real.

I mean, you put thousands of hours into writing something and then you

send it out into the world without really knowing how people will

use it or whether it will connect.

And what's been really wonderful is seeing how the book has found its readers.

Now some books have this big initial launch and then sales drop off, but others

build steadily over time through word of mouth and The Art Engager seems to have a

long tail and is following that pattern.

To my complete surprise and joy, and it's still selling just as many copies now

as it did when it first came out, which tells me people are recommending it to

colleagues and passing it along to their teams, and this is wonderful to see.

And what makes me particularly happy is when I see entire teams adopting

the Thinking Museum approach and organizations buying copies for everyone

in the team to read or buying the book for their learning team library

so that everyone can borrow it.

This book is designed to be a handbook, something you can return to again and

again as you implement these practices.

And I'm really curious to hear about what's resonated

most with you in the book.

Now, some of you have taken the time to share feedback with me in messages

or comments on social media or emails, and I absolutely love hearing that,

but I'd love to hear from more of you.

So I'd love to know which parts of the book were particularly helpful.

Perhaps it was the questioning techniques.

Maybe it was the facilitation chapter, the reflection practices,

the part about information sharing or maybe something else entirely.

So I'm sharing a link today in the show notes to a quick survey,

asking exactly these things, and I would really love your responses.

It'll take less than two minutes to complete, I assure you.

So go to the show notes to find the link and to share with me which parts

of the book were particularly helpful.

And lastly, I have something really special in the works for early next

year that I think will help with putting the book's ideas into practice.

So I'll be sharing more details very soon.

So watch this space.

So today's episode is intended to celebrate the first year of my book,

and I'm answering all the questions that you've asked me, and when I put the word

out, I received lots and lots of great questions from all over the place., In

fact, I ended up with quite a long list.

So I categorized them and then I chose 10 for today that I thought would

be the most widely applicable and interesting for everyone listening.

Now I'm very aware.

I haven't been able to answer everything, but if this format works and you enjoy

it, I'll definitely come back to more of your questions in future episodes.

So do let me know.

So let's dive into the questions I've chosen for today.

We are starting with some foundational questions around

engagement and participation.

So the first question is, how long should you give people to look at an artwork?

So the short answer is unhelpfully 'it depends', and I need to

clarify what we mean here.

So are we talking about that first moment when you arrive at an artwork, or

the total time you spend at that stop?

Because actually we are looking during all of that time.

But for the purposes of this question, I'm assuming that you're

talking about that initial looking phase when you first arrive.

Now the first thing to say is looking can take many forms.

It can be done individually in pairs or as a group.

It can be silent or it can involve talking either from you or from the participants.

You might guide their looking, or you might have them work

with a partner to talk through what they're noticing together.

And this is a brilliant way for getting people talking near the start of a

program in a really low stakes way.

Looking can also involve breath work, closed eyes, open eyes.

It can involve movement from far away, close up, from below, from

above ,one section at a time, moving along or around the object.

And you can use props like view finders or magnifying glasses.

It can even involve writing or drawing.

So looking is actually a very broad thing.

And what I want to avoid, and I do see this quite often, is arriving

at an artwork or an object and immediately starting to talk.

So you want to be giving people time to look at something before you share any

information or ask your first question.

You need to give people's brains time to get curious and interested

in what they're looking at.

Now timescales, it can be anything from 10 seconds to two or three minutes,

depending on what you are asking people to do, but realize that leaving people

at the beginning of a program to look on their own without any guidance for two to

three minutes might be quite challenging.

I find 30 seconds is a good general time for that initial look.

And we shouldn't be skipping this step either.

So when you give people time to look first, you're allowing them

to form their own observations and connections, to get curious, to become

invested in what they're seeing.

And that's especially why observation and noticing is one of the three foundations

of the Thinking Museum approach.

These foundations are the values by which I design and facilitate programs.

So in summary, vary how you approach looking, but don't

skip this important step.

Okay?

The next question, number two, does everyone have to

talk to be actively engaged?

Great question, and the short answer is no, but let's unpack that a little

bit because we need to think about what we mean by active engagement

and what that might look like.

So our goal is equal participation.

We want to create the conditions for everyone to participate, but

as I always say, participation is encouraged but not required.

It's an invitation.

And equal participation, isn't everyone doing the same thing?

It's actually everyone having equal opportunity to engage

in ways that work for them.

So some people think out loud, others might think internally.

Some people might learn by talking through ideas, and others might learn

by listening and processing quietly.

Now, I talked about this in episode 1, 4 8 on creating active engagement, and

one of the key points was that mental and emotional engagement are just as

important as verbal participation.

So someone quietly processing, making connections in their mind, having an

internal conversation with the artwork.

That's engagement too.

And I've had participants who have never said a word during an entire program,

but then come up to me afterwards with the most thoughtful comments.

They were absolutely engaged, just not in a way that was Visible to the group.

So some people need time to formulate their thoughts before they feel

comfortable sharing, and some people are naturally quieter, and that

doesn't mean they're disengaged.

So practically vary how people can participate throughout your program.

This is the multimodality that I talk about in my book.

Give people permission to engage in ways that feel natural to them.

Bring in all those different modalities, writing, movement, drawing,

working in pairs or in small groups.

And give thinking time after questions, you know, count to five

if it feels uncomfortable, and also ask for nonverbal responses.

The key is recognizing that engagement takes many forms and

talking is just one of them.

So let's move on to some questions about tour structure and logistics.

The next question is, how many times in a tour can you use the same

questions before they seem repetitive?

So this is a very practical concern, and I do understand the worry.

No one wants to sound like a broken record, but what are the

questions that we might use a lot?

Well, maybe observation questions like what do you see?

What do you notice?

And as we talked about in question one, we can vary the way we approach

observation and noticing, and we can bring in different modalities, working

in pairs, small groups, writing, drawing.

So even if the core question is the same, the way you are asking people

to engage with it is different.

And with observation and noticing questions, you can vary

the questions themselves too.

So what's the first thing you notice?

What do you notice when you look again?

What colors do you notice?

It doesn't have to be the same all the time.

And of course, even if you ask the same question, the context and

the responses are always different because you're looking at a different

artwork or a different object.

So the other question I ask a lot is, what are you wondering about?

And again, you can ask that in multiple ways.

What are you curious about?

What can I help you to understand?

And I generally find that people don't get bored of this question because it

demonstrates genuine curiosity on your part about what the group is thinking.

And it's a chance for them to participate on their own terms.

Now what might get repetitive is using the same questioning framework or

protocol at every artwork or object.

This is a bit like repeating the same three questions at every stop, and that's

one of the reasons why I developed the 10 questioning practices or qps for the book,

and there are actually quite a few more besides that couldn't fit into the book.

Now if you haven't heard of them.

Qps are my own questioning frameworks that you can use to guide and support

inquiry around objects and artworks.

And they're designed to be used flexibly and intuitively.

You can choose the right framework for the right moment and the right artwork.

You can vary the questions to suit your purpose and your facilitation style.

And this all helps to keep your museum program or to fresh and interesting

rather than repetitive or predictable.

And here's something extra to think about.

A little bit of repetition actually helps people learn and

internalize these questions.

When they hear, what do you notice?

Multiple times they start to cue that question for themselves.

It helps transfer to other environments.

So they might use those same questions when they visit a

museum on their own next time.

So the key is repetition of good core questions isn't the problem.

It's using them without variation or purpose.

That might become repetitive.

And read your group, check in with them and look out for signs.

Okay.

The next question, number four, I give public tours a lot.

Where many are first timers to the museum.

I try to take them through as much of the museum as possible

and also focus on a few pieces.

Is this a good thing or should I spend more time with just a few pieces?

Now just to clarify for anyone unfamiliar with the term, public tours are those

open tours where people turn up at a designated spot at a designated time.

For these types of tours, you don't know who you're going to get.

They might be called drop-in tours or walk-up tours at your museum.

And there are really interesting dynamics at play on these public tours.

People may or may not know each other.

There may be lots of different age groups.

You might have some people joining as pairs or families and

others joining as an individual.

So it's a very mixed group and it sounds like from your question

that you're trying to do both.

You're trying to show people a lot of the museum while also spending focus

time at certain pieces, and you're wondering if that's working or if you

should commit fully to depth over breath.

Now, here's my take.

I tend to lean towards depth over breath.

And I think that perhaps when you spend meaningful time with fewer pieces,

people develop those real connections and those experiences stick with them.

But I know there's a tension here.

You may have some people on that tour who will never come to your museum again.

Maybe they're tourists, maybe they live far away.

So some people in the group may want to see everything while others may

be regulars to the museum who are looking for a deeper experience.

So I think even bearing that tension in mind, you might actually be able

to strike more of a balance than going fully one way or the other.

So first, think about how your museum advertises these tours.

What's in the description?

What does it say you will do?

And see, and this will give you some parameters to work with.

Secondly, I think it depends on your personality and your facilitator style.

So everyone will do a tour differently, and everyone has a

different natural tempo, but that doesn't mean that you have to do

everything at the same pace throughout.

Third, I think it depends on who's in your group.

So find out about them at the beginning.

Ask where they're from, if they've been to the museum before, what drew them

to the tour, and then see if you can strike a balance based on what you learn.

Now if you do need to cover more of the museum, because the group is mainly from

out of town, see if you can do a couple of deeper dives throughout that experience.

You can move through the galleries at a moderate pace, pausing briefly

at Key Works, but then you do two or three really deep engaged stops

where you spend significant time, and this is always a great idea around

about the middle of your program.

And the key here is to vary the pace.

Try not to keep everything at top speed, even if you're covering more ground.

Build in those moments where people can slow down, really look and have

a conversation and make connections.

So yes, in essence you can balance breadth and depth.

Just be intentional about when and where you slow down.

So number five, we're moving on to some questions about managing

challenges, those tricky moments that come up when you are facilitating.

So the next question is how do we pull a group or person back when disengaged?

So first it's really important to recognize what disengagement

actually looks like, because sometimes what we interpret as

disengagement isn't that at all.

So someone looking away might be processing someone checking their phone

briefly, might still be listening.

So before you try to fix disengagement, make sure you are reading it accurately.

And here's something really interesting.

So people often start to check out mentally before

they show any physical signs.

So by the time you are seeing restlessness, wandering eyes, or people

checking phones, they've probably been disengaged for a little while already.

So part of preventing disengagement is being proactive, varying your

approach, checking in with your group, staying attuned to the energy

of everyone before you lose people.

But when there is genuine disengagement, here are some strategies.

So first, change something.

If you've been standing, still, move.

If you've been talking, ask a question.

If you've been with one artwork or object for a while, consider

transitioning to the next.

Sometimes disengagement is just a signal that it is time to shift gears.

Second, bring in a different modality.

So if the group has been listening and talking, try partner work

or individual reflection if they've been still add movement.

And if they've been still, perhaps add some movement.

So changing how people engage can reset their attention.

Thirdly, check your pacing.

Are you going too fast, too slow?

Sometimes disengagement happens because people haven't had enough time to properly

look and think, so they're not invested.

Other times you've perhaps lingered too long and people are ready to move on.

Fourth, ask directly about what people are curious about.

What are you wondering about this?

What would you like to know more about?

And this hands some control to the group and often reengages people because

they're directing the conversation.

And finally, sometimes one person is disengaged while

the rest of the group is fine.

In that case, you might just let them be.

Not everyone needs to be engaged at every moment.

They might tune back in later, and that's okay.

I think the key here is staying attuned to the group's energy and being

flexible enough to adjust when needed.

Next question.

What is a good segue to stop a student who is sharing comments

but going on for too long?

So this is such a delicate moment, isn't it?

And it doesn't just happen with students.

It can happen to anyone in any group, and you don't want to shut someone

down or make them feel dismissed, but you also need to keep the conversation

moving and make space for others.

So first I think it helps to reframe this instead of thinking, how do

I stop this person talking, think how do I open space for others?

So it's a really small mindset shift and it helps you stay warm and

inclusive rather than corrective.

And here are some phrases that work well.

You can say things like, thank you.

Those are really interesting observations.

And then you can immediately pivot to the group.

What are others noticing?

Does anyone want to add to that?

Or you can use a gentle redirect.

I'm gonna pause you there because I want to make sure we hear from

some other voices and then you can invite others to contribute.

Another approach is to acknowledge their enthusiasm.

I can see you are really engaged with this piece.

Let's hear what others are thinking, and then we can come back to your ideas.

So this validates them while also creating space for others.

And here's something important.

Sometimes people go on for too long because they don't know how

to land their thought, and you can help them by summarizing.

So what I'm hearing is, and then you can distill their main point,

and this gives them a clear ending and lets you move on naturally.

And just to end here, open-ended questions naturally encourage

these type of lengthy responses.

So being skilled at knowing when to interject and rebalance

communication more equally is a really valuable skill to develop.

And the key is being kind but clear.

You're not shutting anyone down.

You're facilitating a conversation that includes everyone.

Okay, so now we're moving into questions about group dynamics

working with relationships and energy within your group.

And question seven is, how do you build psychological safety with

groups that already know each other, like high school tours?

So in the earlier question about public tours, we talked about groups where

people don't know each other, and this is actually the opposite challenge.

So when groups already know each other, they come with established group dynamics.

So social hierarchies, friendships, rivalries, and unlike a group of

strangers who are all starting fresh, these groups have history.

So psychological safety here isn't just about feeling safe with you and the

museum, it's also about feeling safe in front of their friends, and psychological

safety comes from many things.

I did a whole episode on this episode 1, 4, 2, and I talk about it at

length in chapter five of my book.

But I want to focus here on two key elements, the guidelines or

expectations you set at the beginning and how you as a facilitator, model

behavior throughout the program.

So your introduction is the chance to set the tone.

You might share some guidelines appropriate for the museum environment,

and make it clear that all observations and ideas are valued, that we are

here to think and discover together.

And these words are important, but they only mean something

if your behavior backs them up.

So throughout the program, you are actually modeling what that looks like.

So you might show vulnerability by sharing your own curiosity or uncertainty and when

you demonstrate the not knowing is okay.

The group will pick up on that.

So validate contributions, warmly and specifically, and when you respond with

genuine interest to what someone has said, you are reinforcing what you said at the

beginning about valuing all observations.

and the way you invite people to participate shapes the culture just as

much as any guidelines you've stated.

Now, the groups that already know each other are watching you closely.

They're taking their cues from both what you say and what you do, and

when what you say matches what you do.

That builds trust and safety, so it takes time and consistency.

But when you create that environment through both your words and your

actions, you'll see the group start to take risks and engage more deeply.

Okay, now we're moving into questions about information sharing

those judgment calls about what, how and when to offer context.

So the next question is how do you decide whether to share the artist's

perspective if the discussion within the group is quite different?

So I think this is really a question about perspective taking now.

Perspective taking is the ability to understand that different people

can look at the same thing and see it differently, and that all

of those viewpoints can be valid.

It's recognizing that your way of understanding

something isn't the only way.

And it's important to remember that the artist's perspective is

just one perspective among many.

Your participants have perspectives.

Art historians have perspectives.

Curators have perspectives.

Now, none of these is inherently more correct than another.

They're just different ways of understanding the same object.

And if the group is having a rich, engaged discussion, making personal connections

with the work that's valuable, their interpretations are valid, even if

they differ from the artist's intent.

And there are times when adding the artist's perspective

enriches the conversation.

Of course, maybe the group has explored their own ideas thoroughly, and maybe

they've asked a question about the artist's intent and introducing that

different perspective would perhaps spark new discussion or challenge

their assumptions in a productive way.

And the timing matters here.

When I do share that perspective, I offer it as another viewpoint to

consider, not as the right answer.

That negates everything the group has said so far.

So you want to validate their thinking while adding another layer.

And then, and I think this is really crucial.

I don't just drop that information into the conversation and then move on.

I ask the group to think about it.

And here's an example from my recent travels in the US about Edward Hopper.

So Hopper's paintings often show solitary figures in urban settings.

You know, you have someone alone in a diner late at night, a

woman by herself in a hotel room.

And when groups look at these works, they very often talk about.

Loneliness and isolation.

And these are very valid, genuine responses to what

they're seeing in the paintings.

And you'll also find plenty of art historians and writers who discuss

loneliness in Hopper's work too.

But Hopper himself said he wasn't trying to paint loneliness at all.

So in this instance, I might share a quote from Hopper about this at an appropriate

time, and then I might ask the group, knowing this information, does it change

the way you look at the artwork now?

And this is where perspective taking becomes really valuable, recognizing

that different people can look at the same thing and understand it differently.

And that's part of how we make meaning.

And this applies beyond art too.

You know, with historic objects, design pieces, artifacts, you are

helping participants understand that there are multiple valid perspectives.

And the educational value is in considering different viewpoints,

not finding a single right answer.

So the key here is being intentional about when you introduce the artist

or maker's perspective and offering it as another viewpoint to consider

and discuss, not as the final word.

Okay.

Now for a couple of personal questions that came in number nine, what

was your journey into this space?

So I've always been fascinated by what makes a great guided

experience, what makes a great guide or facilitator of those experiences.

And I think that curiosity has been a thread throughout my entire career

working in and around museums.

The real shift came when I did a master's in ology here in Amsterdam.

And during that program when I was specializing in museum education, I

became really interested in how people learn in museums, how they learn from

objects, how they learn from art.

And that's when I started exploring approaches like slow

looking, Visible Thinking.

And I saw how these methods gave people the time and a little bit

of a framework to really engage with what they were looking at.

And in 2011, which I've mentioned many times, I noticed museum educators

and guides were struggling to lead interactive inquiry led experiences.

They were really struggling with knowing what questions to ask, how to get

groups participating, how to share their knowledge in engaging ways and teachers.

Were telling me they wanted museum programs.

The Engager, their students fully encouraged deep observation

and involved less telling.

And that gap, that lack of real engagement is what led me to

start thinking museum in 2013.

And I think my work is quite a specific niche, but that focus has allowed,

but that focus has allowed me to dig really deeply into what works.

And I started the podcast in 2021, and then last year I published my book, which.

Brings together everything I've learned about creating,

engaging museum experiences.

And I think all of this has grown from wanting to understand what really engages

participants when they're in the museum.

And the last question, how did it feel to begin codifying your approach?

Was it terrifying?

Now, this is a great question.

I'm not sure I would use the word terrifying because I think developing

the thinking museum approach has happened so organically over the

last 14 years of practice or so.

And I was always working out these ideas through experience, through

using them, revising them, reflecting on what works and what didn't.

And also, during COVID, I spent a lot of time teaching classes with a large

international membership community.

We met online.

We would have lots of classes, master classes, where I refined all these ideas

and the approach grew outta the work.

Itself, it's shaped by, you know, what I was seeing and what I was experiencing

with educators and participants.

And the book, which basically explains the thinking museum approach in detail,

ended up being 400 pages, so quite comprehensive because there was so

much to share about how to design and facilitate and engage a guided experience.

But perhaps the hard work starts after you've written the book.

You know, the editing process is tough.

You have to kill your darlings, as they say.

And then once it's written and edited, you have to get it out into the world, which

I think is a whole different challenge.

But I'm thrilled with how the book has been received and how

it continues to find new readers.

Um, and knowing it's been useful to so many people and that it will hopefully

continue to be a resource for years to come, and that makes all of it worthwhile.

I think the year since publication has been incredible and I'm so grateful

to everyone who's supported the book.

So we've covered a lot of ground today and these 10 questions that I chose,

I think they're ones that come up all the time when you are facilitating

guided experiences, and I hope some of the ideas we've explored here are

useful as you work with your own groups.

But there are still many, many questions that came in that we didn't get to today.

So do let me know if you like this, ask me anything format and

whether we should do another one.

And before we wrap up, I'd love to hear from you.

So I've created a very short survey, just three questions asking

what's resonated with you from the book and what you need next.

And your input will help shape future content, whether that's podcast,

episode, workshops, or other resources.

The link is in the show notes, and it'll take you about two minutes to complete.

And happy first birthday to The Art Engager book.

It's been an incredible year seeing how educators around the world are using it.

If you're looking for more depth on the questions we've explored today,

the book goes into all of this and much more with practical frameworks,

techniques, and strategies for designing and facilitating guided experiences, all

400 pages of it, The Art Engager book is available now wherever books are sold.

And

if you've enjoyed this special anniversary episode, or if any

episode over these past four years has resonated with you, please consider

supporting The Art Engager on Patreon.

Thank you to all our supporters, both new and long time.

Your generosity makes a real difference.

That's it for this special episode.

Thank you so much for being part of this.

See you next time.

I.