Artwork for podcast Everyday Innovation
Transitions & Designing Your Next Chapter with Patricia Cosulich
Episode 925th October 2022 • Everyday Innovation • Jordan Divecha
00:00:00 01:08:51

Share Episode

Shownotes

I recently hosted Patricia Cosulich for an in-depth conversation about transitions, their role in facilitating innovation, and how life design can help us navigate the liminal space as we write our next chapter.

Patricia shares more about her own transition-- from blending advocacy and playwriting to podcasting and life coaching-- and how her values and process have connected a throughline through her multipassionate pursuits.

Learn more about Patricia's ventures in this episode and at the links listed below, and make sure to check out my recent episode about my pregnancy journey on her podcast The Transitions Project!

About Patricia

Patricia Cosulich (@patricia.cosulich) is a Southern California-based life coach, podcaster, playwright, and social innovator. After experiencing many unexpected changes and challenges in her life, she decided to embrace adaptability. She is passionate about helping others pivot and find alignment through the transformational process. She does this through her podcast, The Transitions Project, as well as her group coaching program, Your Next Chapter.

We also discussThe Great Imitator, a documentary theatre piece she wrote in order to advocate for the Lyme disease community.

You can learn more about her work at www.patriciacosulich.com.

Website: www.patriciacosulich.com

IG: @patricia.cosulich

The Transitions Project on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3Ga6IPrr0sGcHGdi4N1zHp

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/patricia-cosulich/

Transcripts

Jordan:

Welcome back to the everyday innovation podcast.

Jordan:

I'm and today we have on Patricia I give her a little intro right in the beginning,

Jordan:

but Patricia is a social advocate and innovator play writer and producer,

Jordan:

and now a podcaster and life coach.

Jordan:

So she is a multi-passionate just like me.

Jordan:

We talk a little bit about that.

Jordan:

We talk about transitions and how transitions plays such a key role in

Jordan:

innovation, not only in your ventures, but also in your personal life, understanding

Jordan:

your process, your creative process.

Jordan:

And actually I was just on Patricia's podcast, the

Jordan:

transitions project episode 38.

Jordan:

And I get to talk about my own personal transition of

Jordan:

pregnancy, my pregnancy journey.

Jordan:

So at this point, I have not given birth yet, but I will soon.

Jordan:

So I'll give you all an update on But for now, go check out her episode

Jordan:

after this so that you can listen to a little bit more about my journey i

Jordan:

hope that you enjoy this episode again don't forget to check the show notes

Jordan:

check out everything that patricia is up to and i look forward to hearing

Jordan:

what you think about the episode enjoy

Jordan:

Okay.

Jordan:

I am here with Patricia Cosulich, so I actually was on her podcast recently.

Jordan:

we have had some conversations in the past, and now I'm so excited to

Jordan:

have her here today to pick her brain.

Jordan:

Patricia is a social advocate and innovator, playwright and producer,

Jordan:

and now a podcaster and life coach.

Patricia:

So many titles.

Jordan:

I have so many titles, but guess what?

Jordan:

We're both multi passionate creatives.

Jordan:

We are Multihyphenate.

Jordan:

So you're in the right place.

Jordan:

And we have a deep passion for creativity, life design, entrepreneurship,

Jordan:

intersectional innovation.

Jordan:

Like This is where the nerds collide, on this podcast specifically for that.

Jordan:

So I'm so excited that you're here today.

Jordan:

I'm gonna ask you a couple questions before we dive in and we'll get

Jordan:

into the context of your background.

Jordan:

We'll talk about the whole transition into podcasting and life coaching

Jordan:

and what transitions mean to you, and then we'll dig a little bit into

Jordan:

your process if that works for you.

Patricia:

Perfect.

Jordan:

yeah, I'm excited to have you here.

Jordan:

So I wanted to ask you, I feel like as multi passionate creatives especially

Jordan:

people who kind of cross industries and you know, push themselves in that growth

Jordan:

space, I feel like we're always learning.

Jordan:

So is there something you're in particular that you're reading or

Jordan:

you're learning about right now that you wanna share with the audience?

Patricia:

So I just finished coach training and I'm taking a little bit

Patricia:

of a break from a lot of the reading.

Patricia:

Reading and work just to integrate and slow down and maybe we'll get into that.

Patricia:

I'm since in, in the transitions world, I'm really into looking

Patricia:

at seasons of your life.

Patricia:

I feel like I was just in a really.

Patricia:

Explosive blooming springtime of just all these projects and ideas

Patricia:

coming fruition, and now it's time for fall and for slowing down and for

Patricia:

setting some leaves and all of that.

Patricia:

So I haven't been doing as much reading in that sense.

Patricia:

I've done a little bit more on relationships actually, and like

Patricia:

feminine energy and looking like focusing on some personal self things

Patricia:

in addition to the work things.

Jordan:

Nice.

Jordan:

And so when you're going inward, and this can be part of this next

Jordan:

question, what are some of your favorite self development practices?

Jordan:

So when you're tuning in, reflecting you know, maybe getting into that

Jordan:

more creative spirit or that letting go season, what are some things that

Jordan:

you like to do to really tap in?

Patricia:

I have been singing and dancing a lot the past couple of days, which

Patricia:

I maybe wouldn't have even been super.

Patricia:

In this space for a month ago, but just the last weekend is just,

Patricia:

I just wanna listen to music and sing along and dance and have these

Patricia:

epic party like dance parties.

Patricia:

And then also more things that help with just relaxation and embodiment, like

Patricia:

guha and taking baths and just things that are very restful and recovery based

Patricia:

have been really nourishing right now.

Jordan:

It sounds like you're very much in the feminine energy right

Jordan:

now with the baths and the gu and the dancing and the embodiment.

Jordan:

I love that.

Jordan:

That's a season in and of itself.

Jordan:

I think we have those little short seasons of being in that more embodied

Jordan:

feminine and which clearly right now I am if you don't know already,

Jordan:

I'm pregnant, so I've definitely been embodied very much recently.

Jordan:

But yeah, that's amazing.

Jordan:

I sometimes you just go through those times where you just need to like

Jordan:

move that energy through your body.

Jordan:

So what do you like, what are you singing and dancing to right now?

Patricia:

So I was a musical theater kid, so it's been a lot of Disney songs

Patricia:

the past couple of days, but there's a bits, quite a mix of other ones.

Patricia:

I was, I really liked Natalie Grant.

Patricia:

She's a gospel singer.

Patricia:

When I was a kid she was favorites.

Patricia:

And so I've been going back to some Nosalgic artists,

Patricia:

like I was listening to her.

Patricia:

And then Aval Levine has some lime inspired songs like Cut

Patricia:

Above Water and Warriors.

Patricia:

So it's been anthems like that and it's been a whole thing for me cuz it may

Patricia:

not be the topic of today, but I, you know, I sang a lot and I know you were a

Patricia:

musician when you were younger and so I had stopped singing for a long time and

Patricia:

my voice was hurting and was very fatigued and that was why I took a long break.

Patricia:

And so, as I've been healing, And feeling better.

Patricia:

I've been playing with what does it look like to play with this a

Patricia:

little bit without doing it in a way that involves a lot of stress.

Patricia:

So, and yeah, so I don't know, but it was a very emotional experience yet I

Patricia:

literally cried three or four times.

Patricia:

It was crazy.

Patricia:

And I'm not someone who cried all the time.

Patricia:

I was having a moment.

Patricia:

It was like an emotional day

Jordan:

honestly, truly, if I really wanna get in my fields, as you would

Jordan:

say, it's probably going to be singing, playing music, listening to music,

Jordan:

dancing, anything where I can move that energy in that creative space, but not

Jordan:

as much in that mental plane of maybe writing, for example, or where you're

Jordan:

thinking a lot more about the language and the words when you're singing.

Jordan:

Sometimes you actually are dealing with a lot of the language, but you're

Jordan:

dealing with it in a less thoughtful way, or it's more like you're

Jordan:

singing the lyrics, but you're not necessarily like analyzing the words.

Jordan:

So you get the, you get that really cool experience of this multisensory

Jordan:

activation , without having to overthink it, if that makes sense.

Jordan:

That's what I love about music in general.

Patricia:

It's very immersive without thinking very hard.

Jordan:

Yeah.

Jordan:

I, so I, I wanted to ask you those just because I always am so curious to

Jordan:

see, and I'm so glad that you answered the seasons part of that as well.

Jordan:

Because, you know, at any given point, we're always changing.

Jordan:

Innovation, I always say is like a, it's like growth mindset in action,

Jordan:

whether it's in your business or in your personal life, things are always changing.

Jordan:

So you're gonna have to find those things that are nourishing to you at any

Jordan:

given point, and those are gonna change.

Jordan:

Depending on what's going on in your life.

Jordan:

But I wanted to set context and influence for what you've been working on recently.

Jordan:

So, a lot of the pillars that I see for you are these, the social innovation, this

Jordan:

creativity and expression life design.

Jordan:

And they've really played a role in where if you're just reading your bio,

Jordan:

you're an advocate, you're a playwright, you're a podcaster, your life coach,

Jordan:

but really there's these thorough lines that go through all of that.

Jordan:

So I wanted to touch on the first two first, the advocate and playwright.

Jordan:

And give a little background of that as we go a little bit deeper into the other two

Jordan:

that you've transitioned into recently.

Jordan:

So, I know you mentioned Avro Levine and her Lime journey, so, I just wanted

Jordan:

you to share with us we can of course in the show notes give more of your

Jordan:

Lime background cause I know you've been on a lot of podcasts for that.

Jordan:

But I wanted to touch on your role as a Lyme advocate and what you work on to

Jordan:

bring more awareness to that community.

Patricia:

Of course.

Patricia:

Thanks Jordan.

Patricia:

So I did a lot of advocacy and community organizing for other causes

Patricia:

when I was younger and then, and.

Patricia:

We have similar-ish backgrounds in being very high achieving, very driven, a lot

Patricia:

of ideas, and you're like, you wanna do so much sometimes to the point of burnout.

Patricia:

And so for me, the burnout intersected with me contracting Lyme disease.

Patricia:

And it all happened within about a year of my father passing away too.

Patricia:

So it was a crazy time in 11th grade.

Patricia:

And the very short, big picture is that it took eight years

Patricia:

for me to receive a diagnosis.

Patricia:

And so there was a lot of medical gaslighting and pain during that

Patricia:

time and I had to take a break from advocating and pretty much everything.

Patricia:

And then part of my journey back into advocacy was for the first

Patricia:

time to advocate for something that I had personally been affected by.

Patricia:

And in this case that was Lyme disease.

Patricia:

And it took a while because I had to focus on healing for a

Patricia:

while and I really couldn't do a lot of the outer focused work.

Patricia:

For years.

Patricia:

And when I decided to make that shift, I was graduating from undergrad

Patricia:

on my way into grad school for a master's in social Innovation.

Patricia:

And that program is very geared toward founders and aspiring entrepreneurs

Patricia:

or anyone who wants to make change, particularly in a business context

Patricia:

or whatever's most sustainable.

Patricia:

So you see a lot of people in the hybrid sector where they're in social enterprises

Patricia:

or sometimes NGOs, you see a variety.

Patricia:

And so I knew that I wanted to start something for my capstone project.

Patricia:

And I had discovered since I had done musical theater for a long

Patricia:

time, and then symptoms made it difficult to keep performing.

Patricia:

I had pivoted, we'll talk about pivoting today into playwriting instead, because

Patricia:

it was creative, it allowed me to stay connected to theater in a new way.

Patricia:

And I was really interested in applied theater, the intersection

Patricia:

of advocacy and theater.

Patricia:

And so I said, Okay, I'm going to write a play that addresses issues

Patricia:

facing the Lyme disease community.

Patricia:

And so it's a documentary theater piece.

Patricia:

I interviewed patient stock doctors, loved ones, advocates,

Patricia:

and it's based on those interviews as well as my own personal story.

Patricia:

It's a mix of fiction and non-fiction, and it took about

Patricia:

two and a half years to write.

Patricia:

And these days I am the producer for that work.

Jordan:

I feel like the thing that I see amongst a lot of people who

Jordan:

have dealt with Lyme is just this process that seems to be broken.

Jordan:

Like the, whether it's the diagnosis or it's maybe the awareness.

Jordan:

How did you see that working as far as bringing it into this creative space?

Jordan:

Was it taking it out of that medical context?

Jordan:

Was it bringing in stories in a way that people could better digest?

Jordan:

I just find it so innovative in general just to not just to have a different

Jordan:

delivery of really helpful and useful and information for this community.

Jordan:

So I'm curious as to what you were what you were thinking or what you

Jordan:

would hope the impact would be.

Jordan:

Moving it into kind of more of this creative immersive space that maybe.

Jordan:

Isn't something you would necessarily expect for a medical diagnosis?

Patricia:

Right, and so like you touched on the Lyme disease

Patricia:

problem is it is a tired problem.

Patricia:

In many ways, like there are just a lot of systemic issues that we

Patricia:

don't need to dive into today.

Patricia:

It's just very political and there's a lot of weird stuff going on there, and.

Patricia:

S you have a lot of people who don't have access to treatment.

Patricia:

It's not affordable, It's often not covered by insurance.

Patricia:

People are exhausted.

Patricia:

They have often have neurological issues and memory problems and brain fog and

Patricia:

it's just hard to function or do anything.

Patricia:

And the really sad part is that often there is a lot of medical

Patricia:

gas lighting where doctors and then loved ones don't believe you or

Patricia:

don't understand what's happening because it's an invisible illness.

Patricia:

You look fine.

Patricia:

So what do you mean you're not fine?

Patricia:

And peop and that's really hard.

Patricia:

Like the social isolation that comes from that when people don't believe you.

Patricia:

So when I created the play, of course when you're an idealistic personality

Patricia:

and you wanna help the world and you have all these ideas, it can be really, you

Patricia:

know, you wanna, you might wanna fix it.

Patricia:

And realistically, like it's not, I'm not gonna be able to

Patricia:

fix the Lyme disease problem.

Patricia:

Right?

Patricia:

And it was interesting being in the context of a social innovation program.

Patricia:

I did some pitch competitions Particularly with a social innovation focus.

Patricia:

And so there was a lot of design thinking and ideating and iterating different,

Patricia:

You know, you do the systems mapping and you look at like mapping the problem

Patricia:

landscape and the solution landscape and what's already been tried and

Patricia:

what's worked and what hasn't, and how do you contribute to that ecosystem?

Patricia:

And then what's your solution and how is it different and how are you gonna

Patricia:

test it and collect feedback from your stakeholders and all the things.

Patricia:

And so it was really cool being in a program where I got to do that.

Patricia:

And I was the only one in the program doing a theater project.

Patricia:

So that was also a fun, interesting space.

Patricia:

And I was the only, only health invisible illness project

Patricia:

and the only theater project.

Patricia:

So that was unique.

Patricia:

And it was, I wanted to do so many things through it.

Patricia:

And the, so the title is The Great Imitator where a Tragedy hosts comedy.

Patricia:

That's the tagline.

Patricia:

And thank you.

Patricia:

Thank you.

Patricia:

And so first and foremost, it's really designed to build community.

Patricia:

And when someone goes, they can experience something.

Patricia:

It's different.

Patricia:

Like a lot of the events we see for the Lyme community will be lectures

Patricia:

on the microbiology of a spra key.

Patricia:

And that's not accessible to the average human, who is not a medical professional.

Patricia:

I could bring my best friend and she might go if she's a really good, best

Patricia:

friend, but she's not gonna walk away with anything concrete that actually helps

Patricia:

her understand what I'm going through.

Patricia:

And so the intention of this was, oh, a play is something

Patricia:

that some people do for fun.

Patricia:

Like maybe not everyone.

Patricia:

People actually enjoy it sometimes, and so, and you don't have to

Patricia:

have a medical degree to enjoy it.

Patricia:

And yeah, and the idea is that we walk in and we see, and I tried to

Patricia:

not just show the patient story, but to also show what does it feel like

Patricia:

for the mother, for the best friend?

Patricia:

For Cuz because really a tragedy like that doesn't only affect the patient.

Patricia:

It is affecting the people who are close to them as well.

Patricia:

And like they have their own unique struggles and journeys with it.

Patricia:

And there are ways that, like if someone's a caregiver, like

Patricia:

that's a journey too, right?

Patricia:

And so we often don't pay attention or acknowledge those people

Patricia:

and how they're being affected.

Patricia:

And so I wanted, as a community for our little social units to be able to

Patricia:

go to this together as a gathering and then go, Oh, I see you in a new way.

Patricia:

I feel seen and heard in a new way, and I also can see you in a new way.

Patricia:

And that can be very restorative and it's a lot of work to explain

Patricia:

what you're going through with Lyme.

Patricia:

Like when I was in the thick of it, I really couldn't, even if

Patricia:

someone said, Oh, tell me, help me understand, how can I help you?

Patricia:

And I couldn't answer it because I was in survival mode.

Patricia:

I was overwhelmed.

Patricia:

And so part of my thinking was if I do the.

Patricia:

Hard work of creating this than someone else who's in that phase can come and

Patricia:

then go, Oh, that's what I'm experiencing.

Patricia:

And it was really interesting because, you know, I had all these ideas to

Patricia:

answer your question about like the intentions to use it to mobilize advocacy.

Patricia:

Like I created this community resource guide with all of

Patricia:

these ways to get involved.

Patricia:

Everything from slacktivism that takes 30 seconds to five minutes to

Patricia:

things that are an ongoing commitment.

Patricia:

And I also wanted to fundraise for treatment grants.

Patricia:

And, you know, some of those things haven't really scaled or grown yet in the

Patricia:

way that I have envisioned and hoped for.

Patricia:

Maybe they will.

Patricia:

And it's a, it's an exercise in looking at, okay, what's sustainable?

Patricia:

What's good life design, What's scalable?

Patricia:

Like, how do we make this happen?

Patricia:

And then also celebrating that, what it seems to be really

Patricia:

effective for is people come and.

Patricia:

If they've lived it, they go, I just feel so seen, and that's so healing.

Patricia:

And I wasn't expecting that to come back to me because I felt like I had

Patricia:

largely healed by the time I finished writing it in the process of writing.

Patricia:

It was very therapeutic in a way, and a lot of my friends started coming back to

Patricia:

me and saying, Wow, I just had no idea.

Patricia:

I knew you then, and I thought, I knew what you were going through, but I didn't

Patricia:

really know what you were going through.

Patricia:

And now that I've seen the play, now I do.

Patricia:

And that wasn't my intention.

Patricia:

It was like that was my intention for pe other people who were patients.

Patricia:

But then it ended up coming back and giving to me just like three to four

Patricia:

years after I was in the really hard.

Jordan:

That and it's so beautiful the way that you're phrasing that because

Jordan:

I do think that no matter what we do, and when I say ventures sometimes it's

Jordan:

not necessarily just business, it's also creative ventures, it's community

Jordan:

ventures, it's things within your family or even just the general decisions that

Jordan:

you make that are intentional in growing.

Jordan:

And and even in your own personal development, a lot of the time the

Jordan:

act of doing it is so much more healing for the person than even

Jordan:

you intend for a certain impact.

Jordan:

But a lot of the impact is reflected back to you, which is so beautiful.

Jordan:

And.

Jordan:

, I do believe that impact really is kind of a conversation or a, it's

Jordan:

not about the thing or what you're doing, it's also about what is the

Jordan:

conversation that's now being had.

Jordan:

And it seems that you were getting a lot of, even if it maybe wasn't the feedback

Jordan:

of the dollars or the this many signups or this city people signing up to go and, you

Jordan:

know, be the street team I'm not saying that's what you were doing, but what, how

Jordan:

people would measure success or dollars or whatever that might be, that you

Jordan:

were getting a whole lot of feedback on just people feeling seen or acknowledge.

Jordan:

And from what I'm hearing, the main problem was being seen or acknowledged.

Jordan:

So you achieved that, which is incredible.

Jordan:

And I think sometimes we don't always acknowledge the things that

Jordan:

really get down to the core issue.

Jordan:

And what's really cool is you get to a lot of the things that we get to

Jordan:

choose to do, whether again, in life, in community, in business they're an

Jordan:

opportunity for us to develop ourselves and to, like every entrepreneur knows

Jordan:

it's a self development game too,

Jordan:

So, no matter what you're doing, creative project, the creative process,

Jordan:

you end up, no matter what you're doing, you end up innovating anyway

Jordan:

because you're getting that feedback and you're growing as a person by.

Jordan:

Doing the things.

Jordan:

You had graduated from your from your masters.

Jordan:

I remember, I think it was the last time we spoke, you were like,

Jordan:

I'm in this transitional period.

Jordan:

I'm really curious as to what kind of drew you into this transitional space,

Jordan:

or how would you define like the liminal space and how did that draw you in as

Jordan:

opposed to This is so interesting to me because I'm either going through

Jordan:

it or I'm seeing a lot of people going through transitions at this point.

Jordan:

What inspired that?

Jordan:

Like deep dive into that.

Patricia:

I'll get to the personal piece in a moment.

Patricia:

As far as how I see liminality, it is that life is transition and we

Patricia:

are constantly experiencing change.

Patricia:

Like we might think, Oh, it's constant.

Patricia:

We can be stable.

Patricia:

And like life is always changing.

Patricia:

We are always growing and changing.

Patricia:

And even if we wanna get really nerdy, like things are usually growing or

Patricia:

decaying they're not staying the same.

Patricia:

And so I went through so many events in my life both big wins and some

Patricia:

traumatic pieces, and learned that, you know, so many things would happen.

Patricia:

And so I made a fairly conscious decision in my early twenties to

Patricia:

start, you know, you hear about embracing discomfort and embracing

Patricia:

change, and I was more of a planner.

Patricia:

By natural orientation.

Patricia:

And I went, Okay, there are a lot of things out of my control.

Patricia:

Chronic illness especially puts a lot of things out of your control.

Patricia:

And so I said, I can sink or swim, I can learn to adapt and embrace this and ride

Patricia:

the waves, or I can be crushed by them.

Patricia:

I guess I'd rather do it in style.

Patricia:

So I'm going to learn to embrace change and make it my out.

Patricia:

Some words,

Jordan:

Oh no.

Jordan:

You can say whatever.

Jordan:

You can say whatever you want.

Jordan:

She was trying to say, Bitch

Patricia:

there you go,

Jordan:

There you go.

Jordan:

I'll get it for you.

Patricia:

And so I, Okay.

Patricia:

And then the personal piece about why I launched the

Patricia:

podcast at the time that I did.

Patricia:

So side note friends, had I send a lot of voice notes to my friends.

Patricia:

And people's boyfriends started saying, Oh, what podcast are you listening to?

Patricia:

And then the friend would go, Oh, that's my friend Soandso.

Patricia:

Just avoid.

Patricia:

And I went, Oh, do a podcast.

Patricia:

It sounds like one.

Jordan:

Yep.

Patricia:

And so, the planted the idea and I started thinking about it and I went,

Patricia:

you know, that would actually, So as a multi-passionate multihyphenate person,

Patricia:

now, I tend to go through these cycles of, I'll become really passionate about

Patricia:

an idea and I'll be really passionate about that one thing for one to two years.

Patricia:

And then it reaches this sort of natural completion feeling.

Patricia:

And then I wanna move on to something different.

Patricia:

And I thought, what's a creative project that could grow and change

Patricia:

with me and evolve with me that I maybe would, could possibly never outgrow?

Patricia:

And it can just continue on.

Patricia:

Like I and I thought, Okay, a podcast about transitions is something that's

Patricia:

specific enough, yet broad enough.

Patricia:

But I could see myself doing this potentially for the rest of my

Jordan:

Oh welcome to my life.

Jordan:

That's basically how I decided to study innovation because I was

Jordan:

like, that could grow into any space that could go into our seat.

Jordan:

We're like, we're thinking life design, we're thinking about thinking

Jordan:

ahead because I'm sure, I know both of us, probably within a year

Jordan:

or two would be like, How am I supposed talk about the same word?

Jordan:

And it's now we have limitless opportunities to, to chat about it.

Jordan:

Thank you for sharing that.

Patricia:

Thank you.

Patricia:

And it's funny that youth went through that process too.

Patricia:

Cause I thought, what could I not become bored of?

Patricia:

Will a podcast about transitions change in creativity that would be

Patricia:

something I could stay engaged with?

Patricia:

And I heard, I listened to Unleash Your Inner Creative with Lauren Le Glosso.

Patricia:

It's another podcast.

Patricia:

She's actually in a, I think as well.

Patricia:

She was seeing in her episode reflecting on what it's been

Patricia:

like creating 200 episodes.

Patricia:

She goes, This is my longest standing creative project as a

Patricia:

Multihyphenate creative person, and I haven't gotten tired of it.

Patricia:

And I went,

Jordan:

That's the goal.

Jordan:

That's the goal.

Jordan:

Seriously?

Jordan:

Seriously.

Jordan:

Like I think probably everything that I have started to design over

Jordan:

time recently has been with that thought in mind, not will I abandon

Jordan:

it because it's just how can I design?

Jordan:

A space where I can create impact and then continue to evolve that

Jordan:

without having to feel that sense of disappointment or failure or let down.

Jordan:

But how can we have the tie in of the process or the concept or something

Jordan:

that bridges, you know, again, that follows us in the intersections,

Patricia:

And something that's interesting about podcasting is I feel

Patricia:

like it is very process oriented and.

Patricia:

Creating a podcast is very different than creating a play, for example,

Patricia:

because a play is more like a book.

Patricia:

You can spend a lot of time creating it, and then someday there is a final

Patricia:

draft or a draft that you say, Okay, I could keep editing this for the

Patricia:

rest of my life, but I'm stopping now and this is it in it's full form.

Patricia:

Whereas, and there is a little bit more of a bent toward perfection and fine

Patricia:

art and it could be more worn in that space, whereas in podcasting, it really

Patricia:

doesn't need to be perfect and you're create, it's much more conversational and

Patricia:

fluid and I'm releasing episodes every week and have been for, I don't know,

Patricia:

al, not quite a year, but since March.

Patricia:

So it's been a while and it's in, it's, I feel like that's a great real

Patricia:

life, tangible way of practicing.

Patricia:

Testing and iterating ideas.

Patricia:

It's a great way to test out content and self-expression and see what lands and

Patricia:

what feels good, and even to work out ideas through the process of making it

Patricia:

so it's actually great when you think about a design thinking approach to life.

Jordan:

Absolutely.

Jordan:

And you also, yeah, you get to go through that iterative

Jordan:

experience much more quickly.

Jordan:

You know, it's those things where you can start to play with those ideas without

Jordan:

it having to be something that you're, like you were saying, like in fine art,

Jordan:

you're overly editing, or you would have to script way ahead of time, or you would

Jordan:

have to schedule all the filming to do for a short film or a movie, which you're

Jordan:

iterating as you go, but at the same time, there's only so much you can really.

Jordan:

Do and change at any given point because you have to have

Jordan:

a little bit more of a plan.

Jordan:

And you also get, again, that like community feedback.

Jordan:

But I just find it a very efficient way of getting some really great

Jordan:

conversations out into the world.

Patricia:

That's super smart.

Patricia:

I wanna add something about life design with the podcast.

Patricia:

So I was doing all of this ly advocacy and that had become a big part of my life.

Patricia:

And I think the identity that others put on me, where I started

Patricia:

to be seen as the lime girl.

Jordan:

Hmm.

Patricia:

that was useful to a point in that it allowed others to connect

Patricia:

with me and then introduce me.

Patricia:

If they go, Oh, I have a friend or a cousin or a neighbor and they're

Patricia:

struggling, let me introduce you.

Patricia:

And I love that of course, like I love connecting.

Patricia:

And then at the same time, I did start to feel pigeonholed a little bit.

Patricia:

And you know, you hear a lot of times with any kind of invisible

Patricia:

illness or disability, how they go, Okay, I'm not my sickness.

Patricia:

Like I'm a whole person with a personality and interests and this

Patricia:

is just a thing that happened to me.

Patricia:

And so I started to experience a little bit of that and it, I did become a

Patricia:

little frustrated because I went, Okay, I have a lot of interests and

Patricia:

creative pieces of who I am that.

Patricia:

Also were maybe taken away for a little bit because I wasn't

Patricia:

healthy enough to pursue them.

Patricia:

And so as I healed, I wanted to reclaim that and say, Oh I'm

Patricia:

reclaiming what I want to do in addition to who I want to be.

Patricia:

And so I thought, Okay, how can I branch out?

Patricia:

Because I didn't want to leave the Lyme community behind.

Patricia:

Some people do as they reach remission.

Patricia:

And I think that's a very valid choice in terms of what you need

Patricia:

to do for your own boundaries.

Patricia:

I just said, Okay, for me, I'd like to, I'd like to stay connected, and I

Patricia:

also wanna branch out and branch beyond because I am a whole person beyond this.

Patricia:

And so I said, Okay how can I do that?

Patricia:

And at the same time, I was starting to really feel better.

Patricia:

And as I was feeling better, you know, I went through a lot of work

Patricia:

of grieving and accepting chronic illness and learning to live with it.

Patricia:

And letting go of maybe what no longer served me.

Patricia:

And even learning to be okay with certain limitations.

Patricia:

And then actually as I healed, I went, Oh, this is really strange.

Patricia:

I'm now, these limitations don't serve me anymore.

Patricia:

And what would it look like to be myself without Lyme disease?

Patricia:

What if this doesn't affect my life the way it used to?

Patricia:

Who am I now?

Patricia:

And like we, you know, I thought so much about the transition from able bodied

Patricia:

to sick and then I went what if I go from sick to able bodied that I haven't

Patricia:

heard a lot of people talk about that

Jordan:

right.

Patricia:

It actually involves a lot of uncertainty.

Patricia:

Even though it was something that I had for a long time.

Patricia:

There was so much uncertainty and I actually felt really overwhelmed

Patricia:

and I went this is what I want.

Patricia:

It's a good thing.

Patricia:

I just feel confused , because I was sick from roughly age 16, really

Patricia:

more like age 14 until about 26.

Patricia:

So my entirety of mo, most of my teens and then all of my early

Patricia:

adulthood, Was largely defined and influenced by being sick.

Patricia:

And so I thought, Oh my gosh, I've, I have yet to experience what

Patricia:

it's like to be a healthy adult.

Patricia:

Who am I as a healthy adult without this thing that's been looming over my life?

Patricia:

And so I actually really struggled with that and felt a little nervous.

Patricia:

And like I say in my current podcast, Des description says, I felt like

Patricia:

a fearful little fish out of water.

Patricia:

Cause I just felt so out of my element and confused.

Patricia:

And I thought, Okay, I wanna branch out.

Patricia:

I know a lot of really cool people like powerhouse advocates and

Patricia:

entrepreneurs and just impact leaders.

Patricia:

Really cool, creative people.

Patricia:

And I said, Okay, I know most of them have been through something really hard

Patricia:

but they may not talk about it publicly.

Patricia:

And I wanted to go and move into this post traumatic growth.

Patricia:

Rather than talking about what happened, I wanted to talk about how

Patricia:

did you move forward after it happened?

Patricia:

Like when the tiger is no longer chasing you, then what?

Patricia:

. And also how do you, And there's also the, you know, we often hear these

Patricia:

stories of triumph and overcoming, and we may not talk about the

Patricia:

awkward middle stuck phase where you just don't know what you're doing,

Patricia:

And so

Jordan:

oh, exactly

Patricia:

I really wanted to get into that.

Patricia:

And so I said, Okay, I can interview and talk to guests who have not

Patricia:

just been through chronic illness.

Patricia:

I, it will include guests with chronic illness and it could

Patricia:

be any variety of other things.

Patricia:

Like at this point I've had guests who are survivors of domestic abuse or maybe

Patricia:

they've had, there are just so many different things a person can go through.

Patricia:

And I, for me, I like the diversity and the variety of life

Patricia:

experiences and types of people

Jordan:

And it's something that doesn't discriminate.

Jordan:

It really can happen at any stage of life.

Jordan:

It's just something we really aren't exempt from and the way that we navigate

Jordan:

it, our, I think really it speaks again to like our process and how life

Jordan:

design, like intersects with that.

Jordan:

And you know, it was so interesting earlier you were

Jordan:

talking about systems, right?

Jordan:

You're looking at these frameworks and with I had this conversation actually

Jordan:

in a mastermind recently about how much more creative we are sometimes with

Jordan:

systems, and it doesn't seem like a.

Jordan:

Yummy thing , for people who are creative.

Jordan:

So be like systems.

Jordan:

Ew.

Jordan:

What?

Jordan:

But systems aren't necessarily Oh, let me go ahead and map out every

Jordan:

single thing like you may be doing in some, sometimes in design thinking,

Jordan:

being one of the, one of the tools that I think does bridge that gap very

Jordan:

well, abridged that space very well.

Jordan:

But a lot of times it ends up being something as simple as our

Jordan:

routines or something as simple as really cultivating our network.

Jordan:

So these things that we can lean on and get support from our community.

Jordan:

These are all systems that we partake in it, the conversations

Jordan:

we have, the the ways in which we reflect after something happens.

Jordan:

I think that's probably one of the most underutilized skills in the world, is

Jordan:

after something happens or after we finish something or after a conversation we have

Jordan:

that's either great or it's troubling.

Jordan:

It doesn't even matter the context of it.

Jordan:

There's a sometimes a lack of, Okay, what did I learn from that?

Jordan:

Or you know, what can I do going forward?

Jordan:

And instead we pro we don't process it and we just hold onto it.

Jordan:

Or it becomes something that ends up turning into maybe a limiting belief

Jordan:

or turns into a something a little bit more insidious that it probably

Jordan:

doesn't even really need to be.

Jordan:

So as you were moving into this new identity space, it wasn't just about, you

Jordan:

know, okay, what do I, what am I gonna do for work after I graduate or whatever.

Jordan:

It's, it was like, who do I wanna be post grad, post or even post

Jordan:

moving out of chronic illness or the identity of holding onto this.

Jordan:

I know that you were looking not only at the the podcasting as a way to have

Jordan:

that impact and express and work on something meaningful and creative,

Jordan:

but you also were looking, I know into being able to do a lot more impact one

Jordan:

on one with people in the coaching.

Jordan:

So I'm curious to see how those kind of intersected and what the

Jordan:

transitional period meant for you.

Patricia:

Thank you for picking up on all of that.

Patricia:

So the podcast and the coaching definitely are designed to compliment each other and.

Patricia:

Podcast.

Patricia:

It's cool because it's almost like a form of market research.

Patricia:

Of course it is different doing a recorded public interview compared to

Patricia:

a one-on-one confidential interview.

Patricia:

People hear a little bit differently, but it is a sustainable way to really

Patricia:

continue learning about people and how they handle so many life transitions,

Patricia:

which will inform my coaching practice.

Patricia:

And it's, I get to be curious about so many life stages.

Patricia:

I feel like it gives me a chance.

Patricia:

Connect much more deeply to the human experience and so many

Patricia:

different parts of the cycle.

Patricia:

Like I plan to do more on, we, so it's a teaser for your episode.

Patricia:

It's the creative process of becoming a mother and that gestational process

Patricia:

of being pregnant, and that's a really important part of the life cycle.

Patricia:

And I have an episode with Mark Gray on becoming a father for the first

Patricia:

time and what it's like with a new baby and a toddler and adjusting to that.

Patricia:

And so there's, you know, there's birth, there's new life, and

Patricia:

then there are episodes on grief and unfortunately on death.

Patricia:

And I plan to do more on that and on illness.

Patricia:

And then there's everything about career and on pivoting, starting a new

Patricia:

business, ending a business searching majors accomplishments or failures and

Patricia:

recovery of different kinds, whether it be addiction or something else that happened.

Patricia:

Right.

Patricia:

And so I feel like it allows me to connect to so many parts of.

Patricia:

Just the life cycle and much more deeply to it, which is a really

Patricia:

beautiful thing to be intentional about.

Patricia:

I feel like such a capital T truth, you know, cliche literary person, but it's

Patricia:

what is the human experience, right?

Patricia:

And so that, you know, if you're a life coach, that's all very relevant and

Jordan:

yes.

Patricia:

relevant.

Patricia:

And so for me, I launched a group coaching program, actually

Patricia:

it started three weeks ago.

Patricia:

It's all super new and it's called your next chapter.

Patricia:

And it's about navigating new seasons of your life and how do you be really

Patricia:

intentional about who you are, who you're becoming, your support systems,

Patricia:

your support practices, and how are you testing and iterating your own

Patricia:

life and collecting feedback and being compassionate with yourself.

Patricia:

And just you know, you and I are both very achievement oriented people.

Patricia:

We like to do a lot of things.

Patricia:

And so it can be a learned skill to say, Okay, how do I keep doing.

Patricia:

and do it in a way that feels good that I can keep up with and

Patricia:

maintain my health in the process.

Patricia:

So getting excited and carried away, but that's

Jordan:

Oh no.

Jordan:

That should be a sign that you're moving into a space that is really sustainable

Jordan:

for you because that kind of energy management is such a big piece of it.

Jordan:

I think that's probably what I learned the most from being in the sustainability

Jordan:

sector, was much less about the actual resources themselves and the environment

Jordan:

and the climate, but really understanding what does sustainability mean for.

Jordan:

Me or my life or someone else's life or their process in is something that's

Jordan:

not sustainable, really something that you need to continue doing.

Jordan:

And that's a huge part of innovation, is that kind of letting go.

Jordan:

And I'm curious when you bring, when you have people coming into this

Jordan:

process, and we can dig into your not just, I wanna talk about your coaching

Jordan:

process, and I also wanna talk about your innovation process in general,

Jordan:

because that's probably gonna be similar but slightly nuanced because there's

Jordan:

an approach to people and there's an approach to like how you work through

Jordan:

a problem or work through things.

Jordan:

So we'll get into that.

Jordan:

But I'm very curious going into your coaching process.

Jordan:

First of all, as a life coach, how would you define that?

Jordan:

What exactly for you does it mean if someone is saying that you're

Jordan:

their life coach, what are you helping them with in their life?

Patricia:

So foundationally, I believe that the client has the answers

Patricia:

within them, and I'm just there.

Patricia:

Guide and ask questions and help them uncover what's best for them.

Patricia:

Because at this point, I often believe that giving someone advice

Patricia:

is always the best approach.

Patricia:

There's a time and a place when consulting can be very useful.

Patricia:

But if I tell them what to do, that may not be the right answer for them.

Patricia:

We might have slightly different cultural contexts and views, and

Patricia:

what I think is best for me based on my personality and strengths,

Patricia:

may not be what's best for them.

Patricia:

So it's really like more process oriented of helping them

Patricia:

figure that out for themselves.

Patricia:

And as far as focus or niche, for me, I'm really passionate about working with

Patricia:

especially creatives and entrepreneurs and artists and impact focused individuals

Patricia:

who have a lot of ideas, want to make a difference, and then looking at, okay,

Patricia:

like I'm gonna connect with someone.

Patricia:

easily who ha is a kindred spirit in terms of they're very creative and driven.

Patricia:

And so there's often a big piece about understanding, preventing

Patricia:

or recovering from burnout.

Patricia:

And it's like, how do I, you know, we, you talked about systems and structure

Patricia:

and especially if you are very creative, we often are averse to structure.

Patricia:

I've been there and then you and I actually systems, that was my intention,

Patricia:

my word for the year in 2020, which

Jordan:

Oh, wow.

Patricia:

Yeah.

Patricia:

And it was such a thing of okay, like how can I go from this

Patricia:

loosey-goosey, unstructured, I need creative flow to figuring out

Patricia:

what's the container that I need?

Patricia:

And so at this, and I'm constantly testing and shifting this around to go, okay,

Patricia:

what's working for me in this season?

Patricia:

What's working for me with this project and for this new

Patricia:

level of capacity in my life?

Patricia:

And I found that having one flow day a week really helps one day

Patricia:

with no plans, no structure.

Patricia:

I get to just Do whatever I want on my own.

Patricia:

Impulsive whim and spontaneity and you know, all the things.

Patricia:

But then a lot of the, I have like intentions for other days.

Patricia:

This day I do a lot of meetings This day I do a lot of this kind of work.

Patricia:

This day I do these kinds of, you know, and I need that structure and

Patricia:

I'll create systems of accountability, like joining a group or something

Patricia:

where like I'll create deadlines.

Patricia:

Because when you work for yourself, there are often no

Patricia:

deadlines, but with no deadlines.

Patricia:

And I've learned too, rather than doing it all at once, Hey, this isn't even

Patricia:

your question anymore, do you mind if

Jordan:

That's fine.

Jordan:

No, that's totally fine.

Jordan:

No, it's good because it's all related, but I got you.

Jordan:

I got you.

Patricia:

path here meandering around?

Patricia:

So I would, recovering from perfectionism, I realized, okay, I need to, Cause I, I

Patricia:

had a tricky relationship with deadlines.

Patricia:

I went, okay, I need to find ways to create checkpoints or deadlines that

Patricia:

maybe the goal isn't even perfection.

Patricia:

It's.

Patricia:

A guidepost.

Patricia:

It's like a marker on the hike where you go, We've hit this many more miles

Patricia:

and this many more miles and do it in a way that feels good and isn't

Patricia:

too stressful or overwhelming for me.

Patricia:

So that's something that I can help people with.

Patricia:

And I see it with prospective clients and with clients where

Patricia:

they wanna, they go I don't know.

Patricia:

I have all these ideas and I wanna do all these things and Oh, but I need

Patricia:

to learn to be gentle with myself.

Patricia:

And I'm going, Yes, I know . I know

Patricia:

you need to learn.

Jordan:

I know you do.

Patricia:

I know.

Patricia:

And I can help you with that.

Patricia:

And so anyway, I, the training that I have is, it was through Inner Glow Circle.

Patricia:

You had Katie De Paula, the founder of that on your podcast previously.

Jordan:

I had Katie as a guest back, I think it was the fourth episode.

Jordan:

And she was talking about a lot.

Jordan:

She spoke a bit more about her journey with Lyme and then also losing her

Jordan:

brother and talking about how that kind of transited into this creative

Jordan:

healing process of writing a book.

Jordan:

So we talked a little bit, I do believe about the coaching, but it was

Jordan:

a lot more focused on her particular like creative process and like

Jordan:

taking that pain into a new space.

Jordan:

Is how I connected with you as well.

Jordan:

So yeah, so so you did inter glow circles program?

Jordan:

Right.

Jordan:

And so I actually met her through Girl Boss and that's how we met was because

Jordan:

we had gone on a retreat and we had met each other in Colorado and hung out.

Jordan:

And then just kept in touch.

Jordan:

And by having her in that network, I was able to watch her story

Jordan:

unfold and move into this new space.

Patricia:

And the reason I bring her up and that program is, so I did an

Patricia:

ICF accredited program, so I'm in the process of logging my hours that I

Patricia:

need to finish that ICF credential.

Patricia:

And that approach is very, like the ICF approach to coaching is very

Patricia:

much open ended questions and guiding and this coming year I actually.

Patricia:

We'll most likely do an organic intelligence coach certification, which

Patricia:

will take about eight or nine months.

Patricia:

It's gonna be a long process.

Patricia:

And that's for nervous system retraining, because for

Jordan:

okay.

Patricia:

And that'll layer that into my coaching as I become trained to

Patricia:

qualified in it, because I believe that the nervous system is so foundational to

Patricia:

so much of what we experience and really in order to really have transformational

Patricia:

change and really move forward and become unstuck in our lives, I believe that

Patricia:

supporting and working with the nervous system can make a world of difference.

Patricia:

So I'm really excited to that in as well, and layer in more creative

Patricia:

coach pieces like, you know, it's all gonna fit together and

Patricia:

emerge, and it's all a process.

Jordan:

Yeah.

Jordan:

That's amazing.

Jordan:

And I'm curious as to not just about your process your process in coaching,

Jordan:

but also when you were coming up with this particular program, cuz

Jordan:

now this is this is a cohort, right?

Jordan:

This is a group coaching program.

Jordan:

Okay.

Jordan:

So, how did you come up with, because I know this was coming a not too

Jordan:

long out of your certification too.

Jordan:

Correct.

Jordan:

How did you come up with this idea, not only for the group coaching,

Jordan:

but just like how you were going to clearly the transition piece

Jordan:

was going to play into that.

Jordan:

But how did you come up with your next chapter and put together the design

Jordan:

for how you would take people through?

Jordan:

How long is the program.

Patricia:

it's a three month

Jordan:

Three months.

Jordan:

Okay.

Jordan:

So how that, how would, how did you go about like ideating on this particular

Jordan:

program as a vehicle to start sharing some of your coaching knowledge to create

Jordan:

this community and to bring them through an actual program that is taking kind of

Jordan:

your knowledge in a more, I would say, you know, productive eyes, but Exactly.

Jordan:

Productive eyes, but community space so that you could create you know, a

Jordan:

cohesive experience for your group.

Patricia:

so I chose three months because in, in our coach training, actually

Patricia:

they talked about three months is a kind of a foundational amount of time

Patricia:

to really see meaningful lasting change.

Patricia:

It's like they say it three months is, you know, anything less than

Patricia:

that is not as much, but three months you go, Okay, we really start to see

Patricia:

some change in three months and then you can also do a six month program,

Patricia:

but that's a much bigger commitment.

Patricia:

So I thought, okay, three months seems like a good starting amount of time and.

Patricia:

The concept of it.

Patricia:

Something that I really love is that this particular cohort falls in the fall.

Patricia:

It started on September 21st and it concludes on December 14th,

Patricia:

right before the ho, you know, the craziness of the holidays.

Patricia:

And so I love that it's happening in a very season.

Patricia:

Like we're very connected to the idea of seasons during

Patricia:

this time, so that'll be fine.

Patricia:

And future cohorts, I have to think about how is that gonna fall with the seasons?

Patricia:

Cause I think a spring cohort and a fall cohort could be very interesting.

Jordan:

And you think of sometimes with, if you wanna parallel with any

Jordan:

sort of classes or education, a lot of times you think of like semesters

Jordan:

or quarters or whatever that might be.

Jordan:

And that's something that people feel connected to.

Jordan:

And the kind of seasons of learning that you have as well.

Patricia:

Yeah it definitely does with the semester system, and the,

Patricia:

your next chapter, it's interesting.

Patricia:

I actually did a podcast episode probably year and a half ago about the art of

Patricia:

telling your story on In It Together back when I was co-hosting for them.

Patricia:

Speaking of iterating, like I was, I co-hosted for In It Together by right

Patricia:

Out line before I started my own podcast.

Patricia:

And that was a way of testing, do I like hosting a podcast?

Patricia:

And

Jordan:

Yeah,

Patricia:

anyway, this art of telling your story, it was all about, you

Patricia:

know, how do you go through the creative process of writing a book or

Patricia:

telling your story in another format?

Patricia:

And while that's not the fo the current focus of my coaching, it, that idea

Patricia:

resonated with me a lot of taking writing language and imagery as a

Patricia:

metaphor or a symbol for designing your, So that's part of where your

Patricia:

next chapter comes from, is thinking.

Patricia:

Creating what's next and like creative.

Patricia:

And I found that like I was attracting folks who were also creative writers.

Patricia:

And by no means are the majority of my clients, all creative writers, but they're

Patricia:

just some of the people that circle around my little network, my pool of people.

Patricia:

And I thought this is fun.

Patricia:

Like we're excited about the idea of creating a new chapter.

Patricia:

And that honestly, a lot of it was based on, I felt like I was in

Patricia:

a new chapter and I was excited.

Patricia:

And I, what's really interesting about this program is that it's

Patricia:

going to be best for someone who's in a period of a lot of change and.

Patricia:

That could be, they're going through a really hard time and they're in

Patricia:

survival mode and like they're, maybe they were maybe just diagnosed with

Patricia:

a chronic illness, or maybe they are, there's a divorce or a separation

Patricia:

there, or grief or something.

Patricia:

And it could also be, oh my gosh, I just got through the most exciting win ever.

Patricia:

And I, you know, I'm free from this thing, or I created this thing and

Patricia:

I'm, so, I'm like, What's next?

Patricia:

And what am I doing now?

Patricia:

So I was like, Wow, this is interesting because this program,

Patricia:

we could have cohort members who are having either a really hard time or

Patricia:

a really great, easy, awesome time.

Patricia:

And I was like, but the process can actually be similar of saying what now?

Patricia:

What kind of systems will I put in my life?

Patricia:

And how do I be intentional about that?

Patricia:

And I think it'll be really interesting to.

Patricia:

Like this cohort, I feel like it's the perfect group to be together.

Patricia:

Like the way that they compliment each other, this synergy.

Patricia:

I'm like, Wow, this feels like I, I honestly prayed so much.

Patricia:

I was like, Please just guide the right people into this that I meant to serve,

Patricia:

that are like, are meant to be here.

Patricia:

Because sometimes when you take on something new, it can be really scary

Patricia:

and overwhelming because you go, I don't even know how to plan control this.

Patricia:

Just if you have any kinda spirituality, send help

Jordan:

Yes.

Jordan:

Right.

Jordan:

Yeah.

Jordan:

Seriously.

Jordan:

And it's one of those things that, especially when it's the first like

Jordan:

few times or it's a different set of people or if it's a different number of

Jordan:

people, it there, just as you were saying this certain nervous system regulation

Jordan:

that you have to like, pull in too.

Jordan:

So when you have people who are already starting to click and align, that can let

Jordan:

you breathe in and just do your thing as opposed to like having to manage as much.

Jordan:

So I always feel like.

Jordan:

There's such a gift that comes in with just who you end up attracting in, or

Jordan:

who comes in at the last minute, or who maybe even drops out at the last minute.

Jordan:

There's just this amazing, divine outside of ourselves that just pulls

Jordan:

the correct people that you need at this time for yourself too, to learn

Jordan:

about this stage of the process.

Patricia:

And it's interesting you bring that up about who,

Patricia:

who joins or who drops out.

Patricia:

And I feel, and I've been thinking about this a lot lately with social plans,

Patricia:

I go, I feel like I'm just trusting.

Patricia:

I'm like, I feel like the people that were meant to be there were there.

Patricia:

and

Jordan:

Yep.

Patricia:

It just works out in these unusual, unexplained ways

Patricia:

where you're like, That person canceled and that person canceled.

Patricia:

But it allowed this really divinely timed interaction between these two people,

Patricia:

and it was the most beautiful thing.

Patricia:

And I'm like, I'm just trusting that whoever's meant to be

Patricia:

there is gonna be there.

Jordan:

Totally.

Jordan:

And so when you're talking about this the next chapter what is the experience

Jordan:

as you're going into this about like the conversation of letting go.

Jordan:

So I'm curious because you were talking about that fall and

Jordan:

winter and this is your first one.

Jordan:

So is there some conversation on that or do you have any advice for people out

Jordan:

there who are maybe holding on to some things that maybe they should let go

Jordan:

? Patricia: So I believe that

Jordan:

And so we actually did that two weeks ago in our program.

Jordan:

And what was so interesting is I feel like it, that didn't seem as I don't know

Jordan:

if I should admit this publicly, but it didn't seem like it landed as deeply with

Jordan:

my clients as I had been anticipating.

Jordan:

Cuz for me, I was like, space is foundational.

Jordan:

Like it's so important.

Jordan:

Yeah.

Patricia:

me, when I go through big changes and

Patricia:

transitions, I will clean a lot

Jordan:

Yeah.

Patricia:

and for me that he very consciously helps me feel.

Patricia:

It's part of my process of letting go moving forward.

Patricia:

And so I've been going through a bunch of old papers and recycling

Patricia:

and went through my entire closet earlier this year and just all these,

Patricia:

you know, all of that kind of thing.

Patricia:

And I remember talking to, and some of my clients were like,

Patricia:

I've never done that and.

Jordan:

But it's like a practice that until you have to do it probably, or

Jordan:

you were forced to do it, sometimes you could probably get away with

Jordan:

not doing it for a little while.

Jordan:

But then once you do it, you're like, Ooh, , this is now something I might need.

Jordan:

But I'm not sure if that is for everyone.

Jordan:

But I do see I do see benefit in just like when you're trying to look

Jordan:

for new opportunities, the less that you have the distractions of, you

Jordan:

know, maybe outdated energetic ties to things, whether it's people or

Jordan:

physical items or old identity things.

Jordan:

And I'm also might be a little extreme too, cuz I tend to

Jordan:

like a lot of change at once.

Patricia:

I can relate with that.

Patricia:

And I, you know, I'm a, I've learned to believe and support tiny

Patricia:

changes and habits shift over time.

Patricia:

I read Atomic Habits in 2020, my systems year.

Patricia:

Like I would, okay, I'm embracing Atomic Habits and like these tiny

Patricia:

changes and you know, the science of how habits shift, right?

Patricia:

And a lot of that is the accumulation over time, the compound effect.

Patricia:

And at the same time, I do love radical change all at once.

Patricia:

Sometimes they're like, let's just overhaul it all.

Patricia:

So fun fact, I used to donate my hair a lot.

Patricia:

Like every three years I would cut off about 14 inches and it was

Patricia:

just, and I loved shocking people, like super long hair, just super,

Patricia:

super short hair, like a pixie cut.

Patricia:

And everyone's Oh my God.

Patricia:

And it's, oh, but it's just so fun.

Patricia:

It's so entertaining.

Patricia:

And so this year I, at the beginning of the year, I said, Okay, I

Patricia:

believe in slow sustainable change.

Patricia:

And also right now I'm just feeling like I just wanna blow the lid off everything.

Patricia:

I wanna change all the things at once.

Patricia:

I am gonna start my podcast, I start my business and like just, it's

Patricia:

all, everything's gonna change.

Patricia:

And it's fun.

Patricia:

It's fun to be in those seasons.

Patricia:

And where on earth was I going with this change?

Patricia:

We love change.

Jordan:

But again, this is why we do well, because you have

Jordan:

a whole podcast on change.

Jordan:

Does it have to be big change or little change?

Jordan:

It's all change.

Jordan:

Innovation can be disruptive.

Jordan:

It could be tiny little things that you do every single day.

Jordan:

These are all things that are very valid.

Jordan:

It doesn't have to be at a specific scope.

Jordan:

And again, it doesn't have to be a specific scope at any point in your life.

Jordan:

Sometimes we need to crawl step by step, painful step by step.

Jordan:

I'm sure, as you know, through even chronic illness, whatever, it's the,

Jordan:

sometimes it's just those painfully, tiny little steps forward that

Jordan:

just get you into that next space.

Jordan:

And then sometimes it's, again, blowing the lid off of something or you almost

Jordan:

need to have that radical identity shift to move forward, so it again, as in

Jordan:

coaching, really depends on the process.

Jordan:

So as you're, so what exactly happens in your program?

Jordan:

Are you doing like weekly calls?

Jordan:

Is it coaching?

Jordan:

Is it, are you talking about specific topics?

Jordan:

I'm just curious.

Patricia:

We do weekly group calls,

Jordan:

Uhhuh.

Patricia:

and then they also this cohort, and this might change.

Patricia:

Next one.

Patricia:

Speaking of iterating, they have three one-on-one calls with me,

Patricia:

which is about once a month.

Patricia:

And then we also have a group telegram channel and one-on-one

Patricia:

access so they can voice message me, which is something that I like.

Patricia:

You know, maybe in therapy you don't see that so much.

Patricia:

And that's a different kind of relationship and different context.

Patricia:

And I think with coaching, it's nice that you can have those touch points and

Patricia:

support of just check-ins of, Oh, here's a question, or here's a win, or here's this.

Patricia:

And it also allows for some accountability of just saying, Hey, you know, you

Patricia:

can send me a message to celebrate when you finish, blah, blah, blah.

Patricia:

Commitment that you made.

Patricia:

And so that's the structure.

Patricia:

And something I wanna share a quote that goes back to something you just

Patricia:

said reminded me of one of my favorites.

Patricia:

It's by Martin Luther King Jr.

Patricia:

And it's, if you can't fly, then run.

Patricia:

If you can't run, then walk.

Patricia:

If you can't walk, then crawl.

Patricia:

But whatever you do, you have to keep moving forward.

Jordan:

I love that.

Patricia:

Have you heard that one?

Jordan:

I have, It's been a while and I'm so glad cause I wanted to ask you your

Jordan:

favorite quote and you got ahead of me.

Jordan:

I think that's probably one of our, Key aspects that we agree on is I

Jordan:

think there is this level of even no matter what, there's just this moving

Jordan:

forward and this wanting to get just a little bit better, do a little bit

Jordan:

better for the community, do a little bit better for your podcast listeners,

Jordan:

do a little bit better for yourself at this given time, or your client or like

Jordan:

you just said, like you were like with a disclaimer that I may iterate this.

Jordan:

And honestly, it's on brand for us because we're in a, we're in a transitions

Jordan:

change next chapter, innovation space..

Jordan:

We do like to iterate, we change, we like to navigate that and

Jordan:

help other people navigate that.

Jordan:

We have to continue doing that ourselves, and we can set that up for

Jordan:

the community as well and say, Look, there are gonna be some things that

Jordan:

change and that's okay, and this is how we can navigate that together.

Jordan:

And going back, I love the whole voice note aspect because these are

Jordan:

the little things that you think that they're little, but they're not.

Jordan:

They start to inform you, right?

Jordan:

It's your experience of.

Jordan:

that's your way of communicating with your friends in your daily life, the way

Jordan:

that it's natural for you to speak on something and give ad advise in that way.

Jordan:

Consult coach in that way.

Jordan:

So if you're doing that with your friends and it's a space

Jordan:

that makes it easier for you.

Jordan:

That the podcast totally makes sense.

Jordan:

The coaching totally makes sense with the voice notes, them being able to

Jordan:

respond to you in the same way that you would wanna respond to them.

Jordan:

Totally makes sense.

Jordan:

It's the little things I think people get too much in their heads on like

Jordan:

strategy and overdesigning, but really like voice notes are like a key

Jordan:

part to all of your systems, right?

Jordan:

And that's the easiest way for me to communicate with people.

Jordan:

So that was just a little thing I picked up from your is, it's a great lesson

Jordan:

in just like your own introspection of what works for you and your systems.

Jordan:

So then how do you, just to take one more peek into your process, how do you

Jordan:

gather feedback and iterate that into your process as you're what are you

Jordan:

hoping to do also as well, maybe in, whether it's your podcast or in this

Jordan:

group coaching program, how do you plan on getting feedback from your community

Jordan:

and bringing that into your space?

Patricia:

That's a great question and I'm still figuring.

Patricia:

Those systems out because they're both pretty new ventures.

Patricia:

So I think I have other systems in place for how I evaluate

Patricia:

myself and my personal growth.

Patricia:

Like I do quarterly reviews of myself and I do monthly check-ins of myself.

Patricia:

And I feel like that system is, you know, I've been doing it for a couple years,

Patricia:

whereas the group program where we haven't even finished our first month, so right

Patricia:

now the feedback is really just seeing, okay, when do my clients see most engaged?

Patricia:

Am I receiving notes from them?

Patricia:

What's going on?

Patricia:

But it's not the most structured.

Patricia:

And of course at the end I will be asking for feedback you know, for testimonials

Patricia:

and also like things they would improve or wish to see different in the future.

Patricia:

And I'll probably do something like that midway through cause it

Patricia:

seems a little silly to you know, often we only collect feedback.

Patricia:

Okay.

Patricia:

A lot of, like a lot of jobs and a lot of things they make you do a

Patricia:

survey in the middle or whatever.

Patricia:

But like I know some things before they're done, so I'll do something.

Patricia:

And then also, For the podcast.

Patricia:

You know, it's interesting that you would ask right now, because I just within

Patricia:

the last month or two started thinking, Okay, it feels like time for a change.

Patricia:

I wanna evaluate the content I'm creating.

Patricia:

And if I wanted to do a slightly different approach, because I've

Patricia:

been doing it for a little while now I'm up to more than 35 episodes.

Patricia:

And so I wanna think about, okay, what is it time for a slightly

Patricia:

different creative take on this?

Patricia:

And I'm actually meeting with someone later today and we're gonna

Patricia:

talk about it a little bit and I'm figuring out, okay, how do I ask?

Patricia:

Because I might even honestly post on social media and say, and hey, what

Patricia:

are your favorite episodes and why, or what do you like most about them?

Patricia:

And you know, it's interesting because people, I think I have

Patricia:

great interviews and great guests.

Patricia:

I have had some people recently say, I just really love your solo episodes.

Patricia:

Can you do more of those?

Patricia:

I'm like, Okay, maybe I'll do more.

Patricia:

We're figuring it.

Jordan:

Yeah.

Jordan:

And the thing is with feedback too.

Jordan:

I think it's just having those channels that are open.

Jordan:

So if you tend to use social media a lot, it's putting something up

Jordan:

or pulling some people or, you know, what's a favorite episode?

Jordan:

Cuz a lot of times we'll get feedback and we have to be very discerning

Jordan:

of what actually is actionable or even worth doing because sometimes

Jordan:

it's not sustainable for us.

Jordan:

So you, even though sometimes your community may want this or that, there

Jordan:

may be some consideration of that, but you can't necessarily, even at that point

Jordan:

do something, you know, in that space because it's not sustainable for you.

Jordan:

Or maybe it's not in your longer term vision.

Jordan:

So it doesn't mean you have to ask for feedback and be like,

Jordan:

Okay, now I gotta take this.

Jordan:

Even though as much as, you know, we would love to do it that for everyone.

Jordan:

I think people will, again, creatives, I feel like sometimes

Jordan:

get a little nervous okay, feedback, What are you talking about?

Jordan:

Don't tell me, don't tell me you don't like that.

Jordan:

You know?

Jordan:

And the thing is that's honestly, probably one of the biggest tools for

Jordan:

growth and innovation is literally just like having a one on one chat with

Jordan:

someone and asking a few extra questions.

Jordan:

It doesn't have to be anything that's even constructive criticism.

Jordan:

It's just opening the door to seeing, Okay, so based on what I'm seeing

Jordan:

here, What could I change next?

Patricia:

Jordan, you bring up some really strong points and I wanna add to it.

Patricia:

So you mentioned how it can be hard to receive feedback and especially

Patricia:

for someone who's really attached or almost married to their creative

Patricia:

ideas, whether it's their business venture or their artistic project.

Patricia:

I've seen it a lot.

Patricia:

You see it in pitch competitions when people are definitely

Patricia:

critiqued and you see it.

Patricia:

I remember even in my playwriting class, you know, we say, Oh, like

Patricia:

there was actually a rule when we did a reading of someone's play.

Patricia:

You, The two questions were, what did you like most?

Patricia:

What was most impactful about this piece?

Patricia:

And what was un what, if anything, was.

Jordan:

Yeah.

Patricia:

those were the only two questions, and it was very open ended and

Patricia:

the playwright was not allowed to speak.

Patricia:

They were not allowed to respond.

Patricia:

They had to just listen because we get defensive or we try to explain.

Patricia:

It's no, there's juice here.

Patricia:

Because even if your creative idea is the most brilliant thing ever, it's important

Patricia:

to know is the audience receiving that?

Patricia:

Because maybe it's not coming across the way you wanted.

Patricia:

And the idea itself is brilliant.

Patricia:

And so it's important to learn to not take that personally.

Patricia:

And it can be really hard to not take it personally.

Patricia:

And something that I wanna add is when you are, because it's okay to

Patricia:

be a little sensitive sometimes, and it can be a learned skill.

Patricia:

I've worked on this.

Patricia:

When am I ready to receive more constructive criticism and when am I not?

Patricia:

And being very conscious about how I communicate and set boundaries.

Patricia:

And also invite, because I used to say, Oh you know, I didn't have as much personal

Patricia:

power and confidence and self-trust.

Patricia:

I think that self-trust was big.

Patricia:

And so I would be open to opinions from others.

Patricia:

And then often I started to learn, okay, even though they're a smart or

Patricia:

good, well-intentioned person, they're actually not the person to speak to

Patricia:

this particular problem because they're not in the inner circle for this

Patricia:

industry or for this personal issue.

Patricia:

And so I really don't wanna be inviting them into that, and it's too much noise.

Patricia:

And so I start, and there are a lot of other things going on there too.

Patricia:

And so I started learning.

Patricia:

First of all, just by showing up with more confidence and more self-trust

Patricia:

and being clearer and communicating, this is what I'm creating.

Patricia:

This is what I'm here for, this is what I'm doing.

Patricia:

I wasn't seeing it as hesitantly and not invited, naturally invited, less criticism

Patricia:

and questions from other people because of just me saying, This is what I'm doing.

Patricia:

And I would, let's say that I, first of all, I just found I was receiving less

Patricia:

criticism when I showed up with that.

Patricia:

Also, though, sometimes I would go, Okay, I wanna know what's going on, but I'm not

Patricia:

really ready to receive feeling attacked

Jordan:

right, right,

Patricia:

I was like, If I don't have the capacity for that today I maybe

Patricia:

only ask Oh, what's your favorite part or what's resonating with you most?

Patricia:

And I would only ask positive questions, and that's still valuable

Patricia:

feedback because even if they're not telling you what's not working, by

Patricia:

telling you what's working, you know what to amplify and focus on more.

Patricia:

And that's more of a positive psychology approach.

Patricia:

And you can do a lot with that.

Jordan:

I think this helps with resilience too and change even the how,

Jordan:

the what tend to fade in importance.

Jordan:

Once you can start to see so what am I trying to do here?

Jordan:

You're doing actually in your coaching and in your podcasting, very similar things.

Jordan:

The medium you're very attached to because you love it and you love doing it.

Jordan:

But if it had to change the next day, but you still got to do the

Jordan:

same sort of thing, you probably would still be very happy.

Jordan:

And that's what's really cool about sometimes getting feedback is

Jordan:

being like, Yes, the thing matters.

Jordan:

And yes, I put a lot of hard work into this, but at the same time, this is like

Jordan:

a free moving, you know, entity or thing or way of transmitting this information.

Jordan:

Really, it's me having a conversation with somebody else about.

Jordan:

Something I love and this is my way of doing it.

Jordan:

So if somebody is like, This is my way that I like to do it, you can

Jordan:

have some fun and be like, Okay, can we put both ways together?

Jordan:

, Can we can I take a little bit of that?

Jordan:

Or you know, maybe that's not my thing.

Jordan:

And that actually does, like you said, it can't help your confidence

Jordan:

when you can sit in the face of some criticism and say, Wow, I respect that.

Jordan:

But no, , no I appreciate it because you're giving me a gift by giving

Jordan:

me the feedback as opposed to just.

Jordan:

You know, blowing it off or not really caring too much.

Patricia:

And it takes a lot of courage and vulnerability

Patricia:

to offer feedback, right?

Patricia:

So there's a lot, there's, I'm, as we're talking about this, I'm thinking,

Patricia:

Wow, this is such a juicy topic.

Patricia:

That could be a whole episode about how do you collect, create,

Patricia:

receive, solicit feedback.

Patricia:

And there's so much gray, because there's a lot of, I think there's a lot

Patricia:

of place for boundaries and then also for humility and for listening and for

Patricia:

receiving and honoring and hearing.

Patricia:

And maybe and sometimes you integrate and sometimes you don't.

Patricia:

And discerning and Is this about my ego or is it about something bigger

Patricia:

or like it's, there's going on.

Jordan:

Like, where do you have a boundary for getting feedback

Jordan:

on that next chapter and where do you and tune in more to yourself?

Jordan:

And then when is it good to maybe actually get outta your own head and

Jordan:

get some feedback from other people?

Jordan:

So depending on what the transition is how much do you listen to other people's

Jordan:

feedback and how much do you not, Because that's an important distinction.

Jordan:

And then in innovation, you know, typically it's very encouraged to get a.

Jordan:

Feedback, but at the same time, there's the, there is the discernment

Jordan:

there of one, you know, am I, like you were saying, am I a good

Jordan:

vessel to receive this right now?

Jordan:

Is this the correct source?

Jordan:

How can I look at this?

Jordan:

Maybe how, is there a way that I could detach for a moment and just take it in

Jordan:

as if it were, you know, just random data coming in , you know, and just, you know,

Jordan:

sit with it and say, Wow, this created a really cool puzzle for me to put together.

Jordan:

So now when I take feedback from many places and not just from that

Jordan:

one person, you know, this creates a whole little picture for me.

Jordan:

And actually I'm doing really well.

Jordan:

And then the human element of being able to ground and when

Jordan:

can I integrate versus not.

Jordan:

And you have to know that about yourself, so you're not putting yourself and

Jordan:

your nervous system in dysregulation by, you know, just asking for things

Jordan:

because you feel like you have to

Patricia:

and you said, So I was thinking, I wanna add this.

Patricia:

And I was like oh, Jordan just covered it.

Patricia:

Oh great.

Patricia:

She covered that too.

Patricia:

Like it's so good.

Patricia:

And so that piece of discernment, and I think what it boils down to is also

Patricia:

the more grounded you are and the more in touch with your intuition,

Patricia:

the easier it'll be to feel clear and to sort through, Do I take this on

Patricia:

and integrate this or do I let it go?

Patricia:

Like a passing cloud, like in meditation oh, let the thought be a passing cloud.

Patricia:

It's is this a passing cloud or am I gonna put this in my toolbox?

Patricia:

And by really grounding it becomes easier to see when, which one it.

Jordan:

And the toolbox aspect is huge piece of navigating change

Jordan:

and also integrating things.

Jordan:

As you get that feedback, it's the loop that goes back in.

Jordan:

And as you start anything new, whether it's a totally new venture or it's just

Jordan:

iterating on something you're already working on that great advice goes into

Jordan:

the toolbox along with the podcast that you're listening to, the reading

Jordan:

the coaching that you're getting.

Jordan:

You know, you have your community support system.

Jordan:

Like these are all things that you're just adding to your little knowledge

Jordan:

bank, your little toolbox, your little foundational set of things

Jordan:

that you get to collect throughout life or let go of throughout life.

Jordan:

Right?

Jordan:

So that's why I feel like we're such Kindred spirits in that we love to

Jordan:

help people add to their toolbox of things that they can use so they can

Jordan:

iterate and go through that process more quickly and navigate change better.

Jordan:

But anyway, I don't wanna keep you too long, but I wanted to thank

Jordan:

you so much for you coming on.

Jordan:

I feel like we both started to align more directly with our multi

Jordan:

passionate, creative, maybe a little bit systems oriented you know, hybrid

Jordan:

personalities in our own spaces.

Jordan:

And I think it's really cool and I'm so glad that I've been able to

Jordan:

have this conversation with you.

Jordan:

So I just wanna know where can we find you?

Jordan:

How can people work with you?

Jordan:

And where should they stay tuned for maybe their, the next

Jordan:

chapter of your next chapter?

Patricia:

Yes, so they can connect.

Patricia:

My website is the most straightforward, www.patriciakoit.com.

Patricia:

That can be in the show notes.

Patricia:

And I'm also happy to connect on social media, whether

Patricia:

that's Instagram or LinkedIn.

Patricia:

My Instagram is at patricia dot coli and all the links are in my Lincoln Bio.

Patricia:

So they can book an explorer call with me, they can check out the podcast,

Patricia:

which is called The Transitions Project, by Patricia Koeller with Patricia Coli.

Patricia:

It's on Spotify, Apple, Google, you know, all the major streaming platforms.

Patricia:

And I always love dms.

Patricia:

So send me a message, say hi.

Jordan:

Oh yeah.

Jordan:

We love dms , and we can voice note you back.

Jordan:

, maybe you'll get a famous voice note.

Patricia:

and that's a way of feedback, right?

Patricia:

Oh, hi, how's it going?

Jordan:

how's it going?

Jordan:

Yeah.

Jordan:

Thank you so much.

Jordan:

This was an awesome conversation.

Jordan:

And let me know what you thought of this.

Jordan:

We wanna get feedback, right?

Jordan:

I wanna hear what you think about what we're doing.

Jordan:

Or if you have any questions, of course send me or send Patricia a dm and thank

Jordan:

you so much for being on this podcast.

Patricia:

Thank you.