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Building an Email List
Episode 121st November 2021 • Close The Loop • CallSource
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Kevin Dieny:

Hello, welcome to the Close The Loop podcast.

Kevin Dieny:

Today, we're going to be talking about how to build an email list.

Kevin Dieny:

This is uhh one very popular question.

Kevin Dieny:

I think for businesses who are just starting out, but it's also

Kevin Dieny:

a big deal for businesses who are,

Kevin Dieny:

asking,

Kevin Dieny:

how can we, supercharge our sales in the next, 90 days or something,

Kevin Dieny:

or how can we start emailing people?

Kevin Dieny:

How can my business go from, I just interact with people when they

Kevin Dieny:

come into my store or my shop or my business, or whatever it is and

Kevin Dieny:

now we want to start emailing them.

Kevin Dieny:

We want to open up that channel.

Kevin Dieny:

So that's what we're going to be talking about today.

Kevin Dieny:

I've got my two fantastic guests.

Kevin Dieny:

I'm going to be throwing it mostly over to Ronn Burner, who's here with us.

Kevin Dieny:

He's our email specialist.

Kevin Dieny:

So welcome Ronn!

Ronn Burner:

Thank you very much.

Ronn Burner:

Happy to be here.

Kevin Dieny:

And besides Ronn, I've also got my colleague, Matt Widmyer with us.

Matt Widmyer:

Thanks, Kevin.

Matt Widmyer:

Good to see you guys.

Matt Widmyer:

What's up Ronn?

Ronn Burner:

Hey, bud.

Kevin Dieny:

Heh, so as you guys know, we've, all worked together.

Kevin Dieny:

We're all colleagues.

Kevin Dieny:

We all know each other very well.

Kevin Dieny:

This is also a topic that we've all worked on together.

Kevin Dieny:

This is one of those interesting things where Matt has worked

Kevin Dieny:

a lot with email in the past.

Kevin Dieny:

I do a lot of email right now.

Kevin Dieny:

Ronn is always entrenched in email it seems like.

Kevin Dieny:

And, it comes together for us, a lot of the times in the size of the list

Kevin Dieny:

when we're talking about and then why it's important for a business

Kevin Dieny:

to consider how big is my email list, how many people can I email?

Kevin Dieny:

Well, I just want to set the stage a little bit on this topic and say

Kevin Dieny:

that having an email list really enables a lot and not only opens up

Kevin Dieny:

the email channel for your business to be able to send out these messages.

Kevin Dieny:

Which can be promotional emails, just reminder emails, notifications,

Kevin Dieny:

it can be a lot of things.

Kevin Dieny:

It could be brand building.

Kevin Dieny:

It could be, sales, offers, deals.

Kevin Dieny:

There's a lot of stuff you can do with email, but not only that, the

Kevin Dieny:

email bit of information is also a really important, unique identifier.

Kevin Dieny:

And by that, I mean, when you're building up a database CRM, any kind of database

Kevin Dieny:

like that, it's hard to know one John Smith from another John Smith, I think.

Kevin Dieny:

How do you usually distinct these two things?

Kevin Dieny:

And there's usually two really important data points across every business.

Kevin Dieny:

Obviously there's social security numbers and stuff like that in some

Kevin Dieny:

industries, but an email address and a phone number are both usually really

Kevin Dieny:

unique to a person and they're only usually assigned to one person at a time.

Kevin Dieny:

So that's why they're really important bits of information to have.

Kevin Dieny:

So not only do they help you keep your database clean, you

Kevin Dieny:

know, find out who's a duplicate.

Kevin Dieny:

But it also allows you and opens up the email channel.

Kevin Dieny:

So we're going to be talking a lot about how to build an email list, but mostly

Kevin Dieny:

we're going to focus this on building a legal consent driven email list.

Kevin Dieny:

So the white hat of the email world.

Kevin Dieny:

So Ronn, we'll throw it over to you.

Kevin Dieny:

Why can't a business just go buy lists of emails?

Ronn Burner:

Uh, they can, if they don't want to be in the

Ronn Burner:

email business for very long.

Ronn Burner:

It's just simply bad practice for a myriad of ways.

Ronn Burner:

Think about it for a second, if you are going to buy a list, do you think

Ronn Burner:

that they were holding that number of people and those number of email

Ronn Burner:

addresses simply for you to call?

Ronn Burner:

No, they've sold them many, many times over and then they pretend

Ronn Burner:

to specify they're quality leads for your business and for your

Ronn Burner:

industry based on nothing whatsoever.

Ronn Burner:

I'm in the email marketing world, so I'm very, very anti, list purchasing.

Ronn Burner:

I think that there's better ways to go about doing it, but the bottom line

Ronn Burner:

with purchasing a list is it's effects.

Ronn Burner:

First of all, they haven't opted-in explicitly or even implicitly.

Ronn Burner:

So what you're doing is reaching out to people that are not even aware of who

Ronn Burner:

you are and blindly going through them.

Ronn Burner:

If they're not spam traps already, which I would suspect the majority

Ronn Burner:

of them are, and the reason I say the majority of them are, is because

Ronn Burner:

the reason they get the volume of emails that they're selling to you is

Ronn Burner:

because so many of them are spam traps.

Ronn Burner:

They're not going to eliminate them, because it's part of the volume.

Ronn Burner:

But what happens is if they are spam traps you are going immediately to spam,

Ronn Burner:

which is going to negatively affect your reputation and your sender score.

Ronn Burner:

And if not get you blacklisted altogether from sending emails.

Ronn Burner:

But even if they get through the people, receiving them, are going to spam you

Ronn Burner:

probably because they don't know where you came from and it's being had.

Ronn Burner:

And if their email is on one list, it's probably on multiple lists.

Ronn Burner:

So they are aware of being caught up in that kind of storm.

Ronn Burner:

So they see it immediately and spam you.

Ronn Burner:

All of that is really, really bad for you as a business and digital

Ronn Burner:

marketing in terms of reputation score.

Ronn Burner:

Once you damage your reputation and once you get blacklisted, those type of

Ronn Burner:

things are really difficult to overcome.

Kevin Dieny:

So the audience is squared away on some of the terminology you used.

Kevin Dieny:

What is opting in?

Kevin Dieny:

What is consent?

Kevin Dieny:

What is blacklist?

Kevin Dieny:

You know what I mean?

Kevin Dieny:

What are some of the terms that you're using there?

Kevin Dieny:

Ronn?

Ronn Burner:

Basically, if somebody goes to subscribe to your newsletter,

Ronn Burner:

subscribe to a piece of content that you have, they are voluntarily

Ronn Burner:

providing their email address to you that is essentially an opt in.

Ronn Burner:

You can then in GDPR and then I know in Canada and other countries, not in

Ronn Burner:

the United States, but there's a double often required in, Canada, for example.

Ronn Burner:

So, if they subscribe to your newsletter or blog or any, any piece of content

Ronn Burner:

whatsoever, you would then be required to send them a follow-up to verify

Ronn Burner:

that they are in fact opting in.

Ronn Burner:

That would be the double opt-in and that's complaint and that is them

Ronn Burner:

opting in, and now you are compliant with GDPR and the compliance of

Ronn Burner:

that is you're doing it legally.

Ronn Burner:

And now you can reach out to them with marketing, because they've asked to

Ronn Burner:

receive that and it could be discounts.

Ronn Burner:

They could be opting in for discounts.

Ronn Burner:

They could be opting in for a weekly or monthly newsletter.

Ronn Burner:

Whatever it is that you're offering they're letting you know

Ronn Burner:

that they would like to receive it and follow along with you.

Ronn Burner:

The blacklisting is when you are no longer able to, it could be like a DNS, which

Ronn Burner:

is do not send, like it's a distinction that happens to your IP where you're not

Ronn Burner:

able to send you're simply not allowed to send because you violated the compliance

Ronn Burner:

rules that are in effect legally to contact people and to reach people.

Ronn Burner:

You've breached that by going over why with too many dings, too many

Ronn Burner:

spams, too many non-compliance, which is not following the legal opt-in.

Kevin Dieny:

Yeah, that's really, really good points there.

Kevin Dieny:

ISP or service providers or email service providers like Gmail, AOL, Yahoo, they

Kevin Dieny:

keep track of people who are sending emails into their consumers inboxes.

Kevin Dieny:

There's also networks that keep tabs on spam scam emails, and they keep track.

Kevin Dieny:

There's blacklists out there that will mark businesses or companies or people

Kevin Dieny:

sending fraudulent or too many emails in a certain succession of time or too many

Kevin Dieny:

into spam traps, like you mentioned, Ronn.

Kevin Dieny:

Which are, honeypots and to clarify are email addresses that are not used anymore.

Kevin Dieny:

They're just sitting around.

Kevin Dieny:

And these email providers and these reputation monitors, they know which ones

Kevin Dieny:

aren't sending emails because they see the emails coming in and emails going out.

Kevin Dieny:

And anyone who's not sending emails out anymore, those become

Kevin Dieny:

traps and they keep track.

Kevin Dieny:

They keep track of that.

Kevin Dieny:

And then companies that are consistently sending into inboxes

Kevin Dieny:

that are not sending out stuff that are not opening and clicking on these

Kevin Dieny:

emails, they start to think, hmm...

Kevin Dieny:

This is probably lower reputation for this kind of business.

Kevin Dieny:

And that means.

Kevin Dieny:

You're not going to go into the inbox anymore.

Kevin Dieny:

You're going to start moving into the junk or spam or then even blacklisted,

Kevin Dieny:

like Ronn mentioned altogether, which is sometimes like a temporary hand

Kevin Dieny:

slap, but it could also be a permanent like no go anymore type of situation.

Ronn Burner:

Well, plus it has the residual effects of

Ronn Burner:

lowering in your sender score.

Ronn Burner:

Now you're more susceptible to being screened or spam marshals

Ronn Burner:

because your reputation is so low.

Ronn Burner:

Now, you can't get through it for that.

Ronn Burner:

The problems keep compiling.

Kevin Dieny:

Yeah, it can be really rough for a business who's

Kevin Dieny:

like, look, I don't have the money to build up a list organically.

Kevin Dieny:

I'm just going to go buy a list.

Kevin Dieny:

So that will lead me to a question for you, Matt, should you trust vendors

Kevin Dieny:

that claim to sell clean, great lists.

Kevin Dieny:

Should businesses be trusting vendors like that all over the place?

Kevin Dieny:

You have some experience there.

Matt Widmyer:

Yeah.

Matt Widmyer:

I have some experience there and it's not the greatest experience either.

Matt Widmyer:

To answer your question, should they be doing it?

Matt Widmyer:

That is a resounding no.

Matt Widmyer:

And here's why.

Matt Widmyer:

Once upon a time, we were tasked with finding email lists and to me, by the

Matt Widmyer:

way, a request like that, that comes in from somebody, that just shows impatience.

Matt Widmyer:

Right?

Matt Widmyer:

Cause you want to just get quick results and quick, you don't have

Matt Widmyer:

this gigantic list without actually working to build it organically.

Matt Widmyer:

I had vetted and I asked a lot of questions.

Matt Widmyer:

We had a separate research SOP that we followed and asked them this, ask

Matt Widmyer:

them about their methodology, ask them about what fields are included

Matt Widmyer:

with the list and everything.

Matt Widmyer:

So, this one company I went to, won't say the name of the company for

Matt Widmyer:

this, even though I probably should.

Matt Widmyer:

They checked all the boxes, right.

Matt Widmyer:

So I was like, okay, cool.

Matt Widmyer:

You guys, you guys remember this?

Matt Widmyer:

I forget what we paid it was $2,000 or $3,000 bucks.

Matt Widmyer:

We put this thing in our email marketing machine and I think it was Ronn or Kevin,

Matt Widmyer:

it was one of you guys came up to me and you're like, what just happened?

Matt Widmyer:

There was like a 60% bounce rate.

Matt Widmyer:

We're probably still recovering from that, and that was probably

Matt Widmyer:

three, at least three years ago.

Matt Widmyer:

That is that's one example of why you don't.

Matt Widmyer:

Now I'm sure there are reputable vendors for this, but they still

Matt Widmyer:

are not opting in to your business.

Matt Widmyer:

So it still is a bad idea, any way you slice it.

Matt Widmyer:

They're not opting into hearing from you.

Matt Widmyer:

It could potentially be a starting point for certain types of businesses,

Matt Widmyer:

but I still think you're better off just doing it organically.

Kevin Dieny:

Yeah.

Kevin Dieny:

I second that.

Kevin Dieny:

The feeling is I want to go, like you mentioned, it was impatience.

Kevin Dieny:

I want to go as fast as I possibly can.

Kevin Dieny:

I want to start emailing.

Kevin Dieny:

I want to start doing these things.

Kevin Dieny:

So before a business really gets that far, let's say before we get to the point

Kevin Dieny:

of, okay, we want to build this list.

Kevin Dieny:

Ronn, what are some of the things a business should be thinking about?

Kevin Dieny:

Like, what kind of audience they want, how are they going to acquire that?

Kevin Dieny:

What are some of the things that a business should be thinking

Kevin Dieny:

about before it gets to that?

Ronn Burner:

Well, value proposition is number one in my book.

Ronn Burner:

As far as segmenting the audience, if you have four different

Ronn Burner:

segments that you could just say, male, female, over 40, under 40.

Ronn Burner:

If you want to look at it like that.

Ronn Burner:

Whatever the value proposition is that speaks specifically to that demographic

Ronn Burner:

is very, very key because you want them to want what it is that you have and you do.

Ronn Burner:

And the best way to do organic is, make it easy, like always make it easy.

Ronn Burner:

So how they can subscribe or how they can provide their email

Ronn Burner:

to you is as easy as possible.

Ronn Burner:

And then it's incentivized.

Ronn Burner:

So then it can be done at the same time.

Ronn Burner:

So you can incentivize it, I always think of this in terms of ads.

Ronn Burner:

There's an ad with a specific thing, so you can have four different

Ronn Burner:

ads for each of those four demos.

Ronn Burner:

And whichever ad is hitting, is the ad that's working.

Ronn Burner:

Specific ads at the places, the locations that you think that

Ronn Burner:

you can find your demographic.

Ronn Burner:

They click on it because there's some sort of a promo code or some sort of

Ronn Burner:

incentive, some sort of an offering.

Ronn Burner:

So now they want that.

Ronn Burner:

They see the ad, they like it.

Ronn Burner:

They click it.

Ronn Burner:

I do this daily.

Ronn Burner:

I mean, my business is marketing.

Ronn Burner:

I literally, daily am downloading PDF files from there's so many sources

Ronn Burner:

out there that are tremendous.

Ronn Burner:

I'm willingly offering my email address to them because what they're

Ronn Burner:

going to provide to me is tremendous value for me and for my business.

Ronn Burner:

So I gladly do it.

Ronn Burner:

And that is that value prop right there is enough for me to

Ronn Burner:

then give them my email address.

Ronn Burner:

Now, how you move along with that and how you build a list of which we're talking

Ronn Burner:

about specifically, that's the lead gen.

Ronn Burner:

That's how you got them, but how you build your list is that's the volume coming in.

Ronn Burner:

Once they offer you their email it's how do you treat them?

Ronn Burner:

How do you make sure that you're continuously providing value to them?

Ronn Burner:

And now you want to nurture them.

Ronn Burner:

You want to be personalized.

Ronn Burner:

Once they gave you their first name, last name, email...

Ronn Burner:

if you can get that is really what you should be doing now.

Ronn Burner:

Now you're personalizing it.

Ronn Burner:

Now you're talking to them by name and you even know which

Ronn Burner:

ad source they came in from.

Ronn Burner:

You can get real dynamic with this.

Ronn Burner:

You can specify it down to what they were exactly looking at.

Ronn Burner:

There's different ways to do that.

Ronn Burner:

A good tactic for that is if they go to your website, whether it's through

Ronn Burner:

an ad or anyway, they scroll down halfway down your page, and then a

Ronn Burner:

quick pop-up comes up to ask them to have them subscribe for something or

Ronn Burner:

to give them that discount or promo.

Ronn Burner:

Another way is if they're on your page for 10 seconds or longer, you can also

Ronn Burner:

have a little pop up that comes up.

Ronn Burner:

They're there and they've invested 10 seconds or longer, or

Ronn Burner:

they're scrolling down your page.

Ronn Burner:

So then it becomes like, okay, they've seen enough to stick around because by

Ronn Burner:

the way, 10 seconds on a page is good.

Ronn Burner:

Very good.

Ronn Burner:

So if somebody comes to your website and they are there for that long

Ronn Burner:

to then ask them if they would like to see more, obviously you want to

Ronn Burner:

dress it up in a way to incentivize to attract that email address, and

Ronn Burner:

then you just run them through.

Ronn Burner:

And let them profile themselves through the email nurture where

Ronn Burner:

whatever they were looking at.

Ronn Burner:

You're again, providing value.

Ronn Burner:

You're not talking about, all the cool features on your product.

Ronn Burner:

You're talking about all the cool benefits and not only the benefits of it, you're

Ronn Burner:

talking about what, not, what it does for people, what it will do for them.

Ronn Burner:

That is building a list that will down the road, as it builds, you're going to

Ronn Burner:

get tremendous engagement, tremendous response, and tremendous hygiene

Ronn Burner:

in your database and money for your organization and the money is in the list!

Kevin Dieny:

Yeah.

Kevin Dieny:

That's like the most common term I've heard about it.

Kevin Dieny:

And what Ronn's talking about specifically is making sure that

Kevin Dieny:

there's really high relevance for your website, for your content

Kevin Dieny:

that matches up with your audience.

Kevin Dieny:

So a part of that equation is getting your content right.

Kevin Dieny:

And that usually starts with understanding your audience really well.

Kevin Dieny:

Matt, do you have any ideas around, how do businesses research their audience?

Kevin Dieny:

Like how do they even get started with researching their ideal audience target?

Matt Widmyer:

Yeah.

Matt Widmyer:

So I think if you've been a business for a while, one of the exercises

Matt Widmyer:

you can do is you can look for commonalities within your own client base.

Matt Widmyer:

That's an exercise we did a few years ago.

Matt Widmyer:

You can do some research and if there is something like there

Matt Widmyer:

might be something that you aren't necessarily capturing in a field.

Matt Widmyer:

It's just drawing commonalities or who do you want to target?

Matt Widmyer:

So you should think about these things before you even start

Matt Widmyer:

trying to collect, because, it's another question you can ask too.

Matt Widmyer:

So I would say go in with an idea of what it is that you're looking for.

Kevin Dieny:

Yeah, no, that's really good audience building is tough.

Kevin Dieny:

I would say a tip I have is to figure out, what is your audience,

Kevin Dieny:

your consumer, your ideal audience, what are they trying to get done?

Kevin Dieny:

And how do they go about doing that and reducing the amount of steps

Kevin Dieny:

they have to take, making it easy.

Kevin Dieny:

Like Ronn said, throwing a pop-up.

Kevin Dieny:

Obviously popups are one of the things that piss people off, but if you're

Kevin Dieny:

trying to be like, hey look, here's something you might be looking for.

Kevin Dieny:

And the person's like, yeah, hey, I was looking for that.

Kevin Dieny:

And I was scrolling over the page to find how to contact

Kevin Dieny:

you or where your number is.

Kevin Dieny:

And they just missed it in the top of the header or whatever.

Kevin Dieny:

That is something you can do to make it actually easier.

Kevin Dieny:

That's what they were intended to be for.

Kevin Dieny:

Is putting the right information in the right place where it could

Kevin Dieny:

be very relevant for someone.

Kevin Dieny:

Someone who's just planning on reading through whatever it is going to be

Kevin Dieny:

like, oh, get this out of my way.

Kevin Dieny:

But one thing that is inherent in what you're suggesting,

Kevin Dieny:

Ronn there too was a website.

Kevin Dieny:

So I had a question about that.

Kevin Dieny:

Some businesses don't really have websites, let's say.

Kevin Dieny:

Is a website paramount or important to building an email list?

Ronn Burner:

I do because SEO.

Ronn Burner:

Almost everything that is being said in your email, is being said or should

Ronn Burner:

be written somewhere, either in a blog post, or as part of the descriptions or

Ronn Burner:

any one of the pages even testimonials for that matter, on your website.

Ronn Burner:

So SEO will get organic traffic to you and that's imperative.

Ronn Burner:

It's just assumed that you would have a website because you're

Ronn Burner:

not going to do email automation.

Ronn Burner:

You're not going to be doing these types of things without a website.

Ronn Burner:

It all goes together.

Ronn Burner:

Same with social media, to try to just build a single email list for

Ronn Burner:

one off email blast, is just, in my opinion, the business model and

Ronn Burner:

strategy is really, really wrong.

Ronn Burner:

You might want to rethink that.

Ronn Burner:

The truth is the attractiveness of business is a low return.

Ronn Burner:

It's just a, such a low return because you're looking at less than one to 2%

Ronn Burner:

of your list of actually converting.

Ronn Burner:

Website is absolutely important its, I call it the mothership because everything,

Ronn Burner:

your social media, your landing pages, your incentives, your demand awareness,

Ronn Burner:

as well as your lead generation.

Ronn Burner:

Everything goes through the website and all the messaging and the brand.

Ronn Burner:

What your brand looks like in ads and in email headers is all based

Ronn Burner:

on what the website looks like.

Ronn Burner:

So the messaging is consistent.

Ronn Burner:

That theme, the tone, it's really, really important.

Ronn Burner:

And to be successful, let's put it this way, to be successful at lead

Ronn Burner:

generation, the website has to be probably number one on your list

Kevin Dieny:

Yeah, I think it's, I would echo that and say that another reason

Kevin Dieny:

why it's so important is that there are a lot of indexing companies out there.

Kevin Dieny:

A lot of listing companies, getting reviews, even to get an email marketing

Kevin Dieny:

tool, they will give you a website if you don't already have one, cause you have to

Kevin Dieny:

have an opt-in, opt-out kind of a page.

Kevin Dieny:

You have to have some form of an interface for keeping track of

Kevin Dieny:

your people being able to say, I want to unsubscribe from this.

Kevin Dieny:

There is some sort of a need for a webpage to be the interface between that.

Kevin Dieny:

So even if you were to say, I don't need a webpage, I don't want a webpage.

Kevin Dieny:

And I want a Facebook page, business page.

Kevin Dieny:

Anything.

Kevin Dieny:

If you get an email marketing tool, you're sort of going to end up getting one.

Kevin Dieny:

Go ahead, Ronn.

Ronn Burner:

No, I didn't mean to cut you off, but it's so funny because

Ronn Burner:

it's a conversation I would have.

Ronn Burner:

This has not entered my brain in a hundred years because it's just assumed

Ronn Burner:

you'd have a website, but you bring up really, really, really good points.

Ronn Burner:

The whole point of sending an email.

Ronn Burner:

Is a very specific, direct goal.

Ronn Burner:

If you're not sending them anywhere, what does that direct goal to

Ronn Burner:

call you to call your cell phone?

Ronn Burner:

Like they don't even know.

Ronn Burner:

There's no way for them to order your product, except for simply

Ronn Burner:

calling you, which is not a call to action, which then goes back to

Ronn Burner:

sender score, sender reputation.

Ronn Burner:

Email analytics are really, really poor, which will send

Ronn Burner:

you into the spam box again.

Kevin Dieny:

Yeah.

Kevin Dieny:

So let's start talking a little bit about, the list building.

Kevin Dieny:

Now Ronn, you already mentioned the basic setup that every

Kevin Dieny:

business should be thinking about.

Kevin Dieny:

You have some sort of an advertisement promotion.

Kevin Dieny:

You have something driving people, driving traffic to a place

Kevin Dieny:

where they can fill out a form.

Kevin Dieny:

It's always some sort of a form or some sort of transference of their information

Kevin Dieny:

in exchange for something else, like a newsletter, or an offer, a PDF.

Kevin Dieny:

Those are usually the offer things.

Kevin Dieny:

So the technology that we're talking about is okay, you need to

Kevin Dieny:

know who your audience is first.

Kevin Dieny:

Second, where does your audience go?

Kevin Dieny:

Where are they?

Kevin Dieny:

Are they on Facebook?

Kevin Dieny:

Are they not online?

Kevin Dieny:

Are they reading newspapers?

Kevin Dieny:

Are they reading a specific type of magazine?

Kevin Dieny:

Are they watching a certain type of video on YouTube?

Kevin Dieny:

You can figure this out by throwing some money out there and seeing, okay,

Kevin Dieny:

where am I getting a good return?

Kevin Dieny:

But you could also do some preliminary research or ask your current

Kevin Dieny:

customers like Matt had mentioned, these are called placements?

Kevin Dieny:

Where should I go to where my audience is?

Kevin Dieny:

You know, is it just a local area?

Kevin Dieny:

I should send mailers.

Kevin Dieny:

Whatever it ends up being, you drive people to a place they can sign up

Kevin Dieny:

or get in contact with you, right.

Kevin Dieny:

To move it along the path, along the way.

Kevin Dieny:

But along that process, you should also consider how are

Kevin Dieny:

you going to capture emails?

Kevin Dieny:

How are you going to capture their information?

Kevin Dieny:

What information is important to gather?

Kevin Dieny:

And if email is part of that, if it isn't already, it should be because when you

Kevin Dieny:

got, when you've got the email now and unlocks that channel for you, right.

Kevin Dieny:

There's another way.

Kevin Dieny:

I was hoping to mention, I don't know if you guys know anything about it.

Kevin Dieny:

It's called list rental.

Kevin Dieny:

Do you guys know anything about that?

Ronn Burner:

Only what you told me, is this the swap, the swap game?

Kevin Dieny:

Yes.

Kevin Dieny:

Do you want, did you want to highlight it, Ronn?

Ronn Burner:

You find a like-partner who has a quality list, and you

Ronn Burner:

guys basically do an exchange like trading baseball cards, except for,

Ronn Burner:

we're doing it with a mailing list.

Ronn Burner:

Obviously you trust each other and we respect each other and you have

Ronn Burner:

a relationship with them, so that relationship can continue and can cycle.

Kevin Dieny:

Yeah, the basics are you find someone who has a list, let's

Kevin Dieny:

say you don't, or it's not big enough.

Kevin Dieny:

You go find someone who does, and you ideally want to find

Kevin Dieny:

like Ronn alluded to a partner.

Kevin Dieny:

Someone who's kept a good list hygiene, which we'll talk about

Kevin Dieny:

in a little bit here, but once you find a partner who's willing to say,

Kevin Dieny:

Hey, I'll send an email to X amount of people for Y amount of dollars.

Kevin Dieny:

So let's say they're like, Hey, I'll send an email to 15,000 people.

Kevin Dieny:

The email will have links to your website to sign up for your stuff.

Kevin Dieny:

You'll get a bunch of these people to come to your website.

Kevin Dieny:

And they'll sign up there and that's usually what's called a list

Kevin Dieny:

rental and you usually pay per send.

Kevin Dieny:

You might pay per lead.

Kevin Dieny:

A lot of times an agency who is in your industry will have that kind of a hookup

Kevin Dieny:

and then you'll be able to grow...

Kevin Dieny:

That's pretty much the fastest way I know of to grow a list legitimately through

Kevin Dieny:

consent, like overnight, and that's not free, but it is a way, it is a method.

Kevin Dieny:

It is a really good alternative to just buying a list and this way, you know,

Kevin Dieny:

boom, I'm getting legitimate people who are signing up, who are in the industry.

Kevin Dieny:

Who are the audience I want and you're getting all of that stuff.

Kevin Dieny:

And sometimes if it's an agency, they'll even put the email together

Kevin Dieny:

for you and the landing page.

Kevin Dieny:

Depends on what kind of an agency it is, but they do exist and it is out there.

Kevin Dieny:

So that, that is an option.

Kevin Dieny:

So I guess, since we mentioned it list hygiene, Matt, I think

Kevin Dieny:

you'd be a good resource for this.

Kevin Dieny:

What goes into list hygiene?

Kevin Dieny:

Why is it so important?

Matt Widmyer:

Yeah, what goes into list hygiene.

Matt Widmyer:

It is basically just making sure everything is maintained

Matt Widmyer:

to a level of satisfaction.

Matt Widmyer:

The best way to make sure your content is still relevant is make

Matt Widmyer:

sure that all the information is still relevant to the person.

Matt Widmyer:

Any kind of data or lists or records of people or businesses are not static.

Matt Widmyer:

They're dynamic, they're always changing.

Matt Widmyer:

Right?

Matt Widmyer:

People move, they typically keep the same email addresses and the phone numbers

Matt Widmyer:

are typically the same, but people do leave and email addresses go bad and they

Matt Widmyer:

usually bounce after that person leaves.

Matt Widmyer:

It might forward for a little bit, couple of weeks or whatever.

Matt Widmyer:

But it'll eventually just go bad and you'll get a hard bounce there.

Matt Widmyer:

The way we do it on the phone is we'll verify some of the information that we

Matt Widmyer:

have make sure it is still, up to date.

Matt Widmyer:

You don't have to verify every single thing.

Matt Widmyer:

Right.

Matt Widmyer:

Verifying the email address you do have on record, if you do have one, and if you

Matt Widmyer:

don't have one, then good opportunity.

Matt Widmyer:

Hey, can I send you a quick email?

Matt Widmyer:

Now you just got another email address that, is now relevant

Matt Widmyer:

to what you're sending.

Matt Widmyer:

You need more than just an email address though, right?

Matt Widmyer:

You need a little bit more information about that person to keep it up-to-date

Matt Widmyer:

and relevant, but air to caution here, because the more information

Matt Widmyer:

you have on somebody and the more information you're gonna want to verify

Matt Widmyer:

and collect about somebody, the more you're going to have to maintain.

Matt Widmyer:

So it's kind of like a double-edged sword.

Matt Widmyer:

And it makes it a lot more difficult to maintain and you can have somebody

Matt Widmyer:

whose full-time job is going through your whole database and verifying everything.

Matt Widmyer:

But by the time they're done, they're going to have to do it all again anyway.

Matt Widmyer:

That's how quick stuff changes, as we all know.

Kevin Dieny:

The precursor things that Matt's talking about help you maintain

Kevin Dieny:

and think about, you know, how you're going to store all this information.

Kevin Dieny:

Another little tidbit here is just by sending an email out, the hard bounced

Kevin Dieny:

emails, they don't exist anymore.

Kevin Dieny:

So you shouldn't keep sending to them....

Kevin Dieny:

Having a process in place for doing that, it's important.

Kevin Dieny:

Even the ones that soft bounce, those are a little bit like a yellow flag.

Kevin Dieny:

Maybe not a full red flag, but like a, okay, something's going on there.

Kevin Dieny:

Maybe we should keep track of how many times these continue to soft

Kevin Dieny:

bounce before we're like, this is just going to keep bouncing forever.

Kevin Dieny:

There's a lot of reasons for bouncing.

Kevin Dieny:

A lot of things are involved in that.

Kevin Dieny:

And when people opt out, I don't think it's a bad thing.

Kevin Dieny:

Ronn, How do you look at, the whole unsubscribed, opt-out scenario?

Ronn Burner:

I say thank you for letting us know.

Ronn Burner:

And people think sometimes there is dirty words, I always say that

Ronn Burner:

accountability is not a dirty word.

Ronn Burner:

Well, neither is opt out.

Ronn Burner:

And the reason being is they're explicitly letting us know that

Ronn Burner:

they're not interested in our content.

Ronn Burner:

That's important to know.

Ronn Burner:

What's the difference of sending to that person versus sending to a spam trap?

Ronn Burner:

They don't want to receive your content, so it's better to know

Ronn Burner:

that they're not a potential customer, for any number of reasons.

Ronn Burner:

So what you do is you remove them and can be debated whether you keep

Ronn Burner:

them in your database or not, and put them in a separate section.

Ronn Burner:

That's a whole entire other conversation that each institution will have

Ronn Burner:

their own kind of thoughts on.

Ronn Burner:

The point is they're not marketable.

Ronn Burner:

They're marketing suspended at the very least, so they should

Ronn Burner:

not receive your content.

Ronn Burner:

And here's another interesting point or at least the case for why you

Ronn Burner:

would keep them in your database.

Ronn Burner:

They can later become unsuspended.

Ronn Burner:

They can become marketable again.

Ronn Burner:

Whatever your product is and they don't need it, well, a couple of years later,

Ronn Burner:

all of a sudden they need a new product because there's crapped out already.

Ronn Burner:

Well, they might opt back into what it is for you while they're shopping again.

Ronn Burner:

So the idea of an opt out is good information to have, because you

Ronn Burner:

do not want to be annoying and you do not want to send to people

Ronn Burner:

that do not want your content.

Kevin Dieny:

No, no, that was really good.

Kevin Dieny:

I look at unsubscribe the same way.

Kevin Dieny:

It's a positive thing.

Kevin Dieny:

Obviously extremely high unsubscribe rate should be telling you

Kevin Dieny:

you're sending the wrong content.

Kevin Dieny:

That's not relevant.

Kevin Dieny:

So that leads me right to the next question for you, Ronn.

Kevin Dieny:

What are lead magnets, what are offers and how, what is their purpose?

Kevin Dieny:

How you create them to make sure that they're valuable and

Kevin Dieny:

relevant for building the list.

Kevin Dieny:

Now, these are people who are coming to the business for the first time.

Kevin Dieny:

It could be a dentist website, could be a roofing website, and they're going,

Kevin Dieny:

they're trying to figure out, okay, I want to know more about this business.

Kevin Dieny:

And this business is going to offer them a lead magnet, an offer of some sort.

Kevin Dieny:

Can you elaborate on what all of that is?

Ronn Burner:

Yes.

Ronn Burner:

I just remember what I was going to say previously was I would have

Ronn Burner:

built in cold suppression lists.

Ronn Burner:

So people are, I call it proof of life.

Ronn Burner:

So if you're sending emails and it goes to the same email address over

Ronn Burner:

a 60 day period, and if say, they've received, six emails in 60 days

Ronn Burner:

and they haven't even opened, it has been no engagement whatsoever.

Ronn Burner:

I would cold suppress them and also suspend them for awhile, which also will

Ronn Burner:

help with your list hygiene, because you need that proof of life to know there's at

Ronn Burner:

least this person on the other end of it.

Ronn Burner:

Cause it doesn't do any good for them to just constantly ignore you.

Ronn Burner:

You can still put them in a different bucket and you handle

Ronn Burner:

them differently in a drip campaign.

Ronn Burner:

As far as lead magnets go, the power of lead magnets are, and I love to

Ronn Burner:

say this is, I don't want to tell people what I think they want.

Ronn Burner:

I want them to tell me what they want and the lead magnets do that.

Ronn Burner:

Ideally you have a number of them from a different point of view, if you will.

Ronn Burner:

And the reason for that is this now speaks to them in a way that's different.

Ronn Burner:

Talking about a different pain point or talking about something

Ronn Burner:

in a very different way.

Ronn Burner:

Take them to a form to fill to a landing page to fill out the form, and

Ronn Burner:

then you would get more information on them based on their engagement.

Ronn Burner:

If that does not work, a different lead magnet altogether, still supporting the

Ronn Burner:

very same product, is just talking about it from a very different angle, with

Ronn Burner:

different analytics and a whole different perspective that if the first one didn't

Ronn Burner:

work this one, oh, that's interesting.

Ronn Burner:

I don't need that value offering.

Ronn Burner:

But this see this product also does this now that is of interest to me.

Ronn Burner:

So the lead magnets, have a way of letting them tell you what it

Ronn Burner:

is that they're interested in.

Ronn Burner:

And then ideally you would have, now you would have a different series of

Ronn Burner:

emails speaking to that specific point.

Ronn Burner:

Lead magnets are anything from, PDF, it could be an infographic,

Ronn Burner:

it can be a white paper.

Ronn Burner:

It depends on what your business is.

Ronn Burner:

B2C, obviously the buyer's journey is much quicker.

Ronn Burner:

So you want to get right to the point right away and in a way that

Ronn Burner:

allows them to speak to somebody and B2C you often don't, you can just

Ronn Burner:

go to a website and just buy right away without speaking to somebody.

Ronn Burner:

So that also changes how you would offer and what you would offer.

Ronn Burner:

But lead magnets are simply offering value.

Ronn Burner:

Like I mentioned earlier with emails.

Ronn Burner:

I'll get a massive, massive, a hundred page PDF from like a Marketo

Ronn Burner:

or Eloqua or HubSpot, whatever it is, where it's like, I want to see

Ronn Burner:

what the new 2021 analytics are.

Ronn Burner:

And they'll give it to me for free, as long as I provide them with the

Ronn Burner:

information, because of course they want me to move over to their product.

Ronn Burner:

So that is tremendous value.

Ronn Burner:

And that's the idea of a lead magnet is just find value specific to that audience.

Ronn Burner:

If you can't be one-to-one ratio and that sort of specific, it can be more

Ronn Burner:

vague, but now it's becoming specific based on which ones they are downloading.

Kevin Dieny:

Yeah, the formula for the lead magnet or the offer as Ronn

Kevin Dieny:

was mentioning is know your audience.

Kevin Dieny:

Your audience has pain points.

Kevin Dieny:

They have things they're trying to solve, trying to accomplish.

Kevin Dieny:

What job are they trying to get done as soon as possible.

Kevin Dieny:

There's also a little bit of research in there around what's

Kevin Dieny:

that problem worth, what's it worth to them to solve that problem?

Kevin Dieny:

What is that?

Kevin Dieny:

What's the value there.

Kevin Dieny:

And so the offer, the lead magnet is created based on whatever problem they're

Kevin Dieny:

trying to solve, whatever pain they have.

Kevin Dieny:

It's attacking that.

Kevin Dieny:

It's giving people, Hey, look, you've got to solve this problem.

Kevin Dieny:

That's the truth.

Kevin Dieny:

That's what you need to do, you need to solve this.

Kevin Dieny:

There's a couple ways to go about it.

Kevin Dieny:

Here's either some information, here's some education, here's a resource here's

Kevin Dieny:

a, maybe a 20% off because the values a little bit lower for you, here is

Kevin Dieny:

video on this, here's a free trial.

Kevin Dieny:

Gosh, here's a tool, here's a calculator, here's something to

Kevin Dieny:

help you either do it yourself or get to the finish line yourself.

Kevin Dieny:

And there might be a little bit of branding and positioning and

Kevin Dieny:

bias there because the company is giving it's like, Hey.

Kevin Dieny:

Obviously, we want you to come and buy from us, but you're still

Kevin Dieny:

at the end of the day that the aim of it is to help someone.

Kevin Dieny:

It's to help that audience with that problem.

Kevin Dieny:

And if that audience finds value, actual value there, they often will

Kevin Dieny:

see it as, okay, I like this company.

Kevin Dieny:

They get me, they get the problem I have, they're willing

Kevin Dieny:

to produce something for me.

Kevin Dieny:

And sometimes lowers that threshold of, willing to pay and willing to buy.

Kevin Dieny:

It might be just that the audience has no idea that they need to get a new roof.

Kevin Dieny:

It could be like, Hey, is there pots everywhere?

Kevin Dieny:

Or leaking pots in the rain?

Kevin Dieny:

Okay.

Kevin Dieny:

He might need a new roof.

Kevin Dieny:

You might need something, there might be something going on up there.

Kevin Dieny:

It's like, oh, okay.

Kevin Dieny:

Not, everyone's a genius.

Kevin Dieny:

Not everyone knows the product as well as you do.

Kevin Dieny:

So helping people get there and get all the way there, helping people

Kevin Dieny:

see what the process looks like.

Kevin Dieny:

Okay, people are gonna arrive.

Kevin Dieny:

It's going to be painless and then they're going to leave.

Kevin Dieny:

The dentist office may not be so scary if you can show people what it's like.

Kevin Dieny:

There's a lot of fear around that kind of thing.

Kevin Dieny:

So that's what the offers, that's what the lead magnets are, persuading.

Kevin Dieny:

That's what they're trying to do there.

Kevin Dieny:

Which kind of goes right to the next thing.

Kevin Dieny:

Something that facilitates the exchange of information, right?

Kevin Dieny:

A form has a landing page.

Kevin Dieny:

Some of that's tied to your website.

Kevin Dieny:

Sometimes you can go get a plugin for that.

Kevin Dieny:

But sometimes the easiest way to do all of this is just to

Kevin Dieny:

go buy an email marketing tool.

Kevin Dieny:

And you mentioned some of them Ronn, but I'm going to shoot over to Matt,

Kevin Dieny:

do you think a business should invest in an email marketing tool, Matt?

Matt Widmyer:

Yeah, I think absolutely.

Matt Widmyer:

Even if you don't even have that list built up yet, I think you should have

Matt Widmyer:

that thing primed and ready to go.

Matt Widmyer:

I think that's a very necessary, investment for a business.

Matt Widmyer:

It depends, on what type of business, but if we're talking

Matt Widmyer:

about B2C, most B2C, it makes sense.

Matt Widmyer:

It's made sense for me and some of the ventures that I've done off onto the side.

Matt Widmyer:

If I did not have any kind of, email correspondence you'd have

Matt Widmyer:

to do a lot of manual work.

Matt Widmyer:

You have to look at the value of your time versus the value of whatever investment.

Matt Widmyer:

I know, like some of the names that get dropped out there,

Matt Widmyer:

Marketo, HubSpot, stuff like that.

Matt Widmyer:

Some of those are a little bit pricier but there are more cost

Matt Widmyer:

effective solutions for people that are just getting off the ground.

Matt Widmyer:

You don't have to start in the Cadillac.

Matt Widmyer:

Right.

Matt Widmyer:

You can start in the Geo Metro and work your way up to the Cadillac.

Kevin Dieny:

Oh I love the car metaphor.

Kevin Dieny:

So, Ronn do you have anything else you want to add to that or anything

Kevin Dieny:

else that we've missed in this conversation before we close out?

Ronn Burner:

So we're talking about list building, not to be confused with

Ronn Burner:

your CRM or your database of some sort as well as your email marketing tool or

Ronn Burner:

solution, whatever that's going to be.

Ronn Burner:

You can start with the CRM and some of them will allow you to

Ronn Burner:

send from them if it's, it depends.

Ronn Burner:

If you're brand new and you literally have virtually no list, you still need

Ronn Burner:

your database, you still need your CRM and you and I would venture that

Ronn Burner:

you would rather not do it in Excel.

Ronn Burner:

So just get the CRM, and then start building from that.

Ronn Burner:

Build, get the infrastructure set and then build on top of that.

Ronn Burner:

Something like Salesforce is a tremendous tool and it's

Ronn Burner:

probably the most popular CRM.

Ronn Burner:

You can get it at a basic level to start building that this and that database.

Ronn Burner:

I think something we haven't really touched on is, the fields.

Ronn Burner:

The questions or the fields in a form are very, very, very important

Ronn Burner:

to what it is that you do and what it is that you provide.

Ronn Burner:

So some companies doesn't matter if you're male or female, some

Ronn Burner:

companies it's, ultimately important because it's a female product, right.

Ronn Burner:

Or geography or however you want to do that.

Ronn Burner:

Those are the questions that go into the field, which is very key.

Ronn Burner:

So even for a lead magnet, they'll tell you their age or not their age,

Ronn Burner:

but their gender or whatever it is.

Ronn Burner:

That's very specific that it will help you profile them and move them through.

Ronn Burner:

So that data goes into the CRM and now we have it.

Ronn Burner:

And then the email marketing tool is getting the behavior, the engagement.

Ronn Burner:

So you're getting all the analytics and all the data.

Ronn Burner:

So everything that they are doing for those from your website or from the

Ronn Burner:

email or both, or even social media for that matter, you are now tracking their

Ronn Burner:

movements and their engagement and what they're interested in and where they've

Ronn Burner:

been and where they're going next.

Ronn Burner:

That is important.

Ronn Burner:

That is what the email marketing system will get for you.

Ronn Burner:

And that will also allow you to clean up your data, which then

Ronn Burner:

keeps it pristine within your CRM.

Ronn Burner:

So they, the two tools work together and like Matt said, you can get pretty

Ronn Burner:

basic, or at least not the high dollar, the high spend, email tools that

Ronn Burner:

can manage you on, on a simple basis.

Ronn Burner:

But the idea is to get an infrastructure in place and then built on that

Ronn Burner:

rather than wholesale changes.

Matt Widmyer:

I did want to actually add to that.

Matt Widmyer:

And that was great, by the way, I did want to add to that.

Matt Widmyer:

I know the emphasis here is on building up an email list that also

Matt Widmyer:

does include what Ronn mentioned, which is the suppression piece.

Matt Widmyer:

That's, that's a piece that it's a must have.

Matt Widmyer:

It's not like, oh, it would be nice to exclude certain people from my list.

Matt Widmyer:

No, because the quality of your list is going to go up if you pluck out

Matt Widmyer:

the people that don't really are not relevant to, whatever it is that you do.

Matt Widmyer:

Perfect example that we always use is like this, the students

Matt Widmyer:

downloading for information for the class project or whatever.

Matt Widmyer:

They're just getting information off the internet.

Matt Widmyer:

Right now it's not relevant to them.

Matt Widmyer:

So timing's also a big thing too.

Matt Widmyer:

That's probably the most missed thing and it's something that'll

Matt Widmyer:

drive a sales manager nuts too.

Matt Widmyer:

Cause they'll, they'll want to message the entire world.

Matt Widmyer:

I got a list of 5,000 people let's message these 5,000 and I can expect 10% from it.

Matt Widmyer:

No, you can't because you're not going to want to send it to all those 5,000 people.

Matt Widmyer:

Because sure fire every single time too, you started going through the list.

Matt Widmyer:

Well, I thought you didn't want the HR title.

Matt Widmyer:

Oh, that's right.

Matt Widmyer:

We don't.

Matt Widmyer:

Okay.

Matt Widmyer:

Well, what else don't you want before this thing goes in here?

Matt Widmyer:

Let's take care of it right now.

Matt Widmyer:

Right?

Matt Widmyer:

The point of consideration is who do you not want in here as well?

Ronn Burner:

Matt, that's a perfect example of why an opt

Ronn Burner:

out is not a terrible thing.

Ronn Burner:

The class projects, I mean, that's a perfect example.

Ronn Burner:

Like an opt out is not a bad thing, that's a great, great example.

Kevin Dieny:

I think the big thing that we're trying to get to here is

Kevin Dieny:

sort of the undercurrent for this whole conversation is that emails are

Kevin Dieny:

very valuable channel for a business.

Kevin Dieny:

And it allows you to do a lot.

Kevin Dieny:

You can really do a lot, but it does take a little bit of work.

Kevin Dieny:

Building an email list I wouldn't say it's the easiest thing in the world.

Kevin Dieny:

You're not just building a list of people.

Kevin Dieny:

You're building a list of ideal audiences that are showing you

Kevin Dieny:

engagement that are opportunities for you to do business with in the future.

Kevin Dieny:

And to build that the right way does take the right set of tools, the

Kevin Dieny:

right operations, process hygiene.

Kevin Dieny:

You have to find your audience to get them in there.

Kevin Dieny:

Then you have to craft the right relevant offers.

Kevin Dieny:

You have to craft the right emails to keep them in there.

Kevin Dieny:

There's a lot that goes on and all that.

Kevin Dieny:

But if you can do all of that, and you can do it.

Kevin Dieny:

You can, obviously you are not going to do it well right off the gate.

Kevin Dieny:

Sometimes it takes people and it takes even the people who

Kevin Dieny:

are doing this all the time.

Kevin Dieny:

Like Ronn and all of us have done it.

Kevin Dieny:

It takes a lot of mistakes.

Kevin Dieny:

Takes a lot of learning, takes a lot of experimentation to get right.

Kevin Dieny:

It just, the subject line will make people's brains explode about, well,

Kevin Dieny:

how many different ways there are to try to craft the perfect one.

Kevin Dieny:

It's really not easy.

Kevin Dieny:

If you can unlock that channel for your business it unlocks a lot more

Kevin Dieny:

opportunities for you to capture value.

Kevin Dieny:

It unlocks that ability for you to interact with your

Kevin Dieny:

audience in a different way.

Kevin Dieny:

And maybe you've never considered, my business type is not, having an

Kevin Dieny:

email or having email blast, having email newsletters, not that common.

Kevin Dieny:

Well, give it a try, give it a whirl and see what it can come of it.

Kevin Dieny:

I would say there's a lot of value there and a lot of potential

Kevin Dieny:

in there to, to get it going.

Kevin Dieny:

You can build an email list and build one with consent, build one with following

Kevin Dieny:

the rules of mass email marketing, and it'll set you up for success down the

Kevin Dieny:

road without the crazy nightmares and headaches of having to deal with all

Kevin Dieny:

the blacklisting and everything else.

Kevin Dieny:

So, everybody, all our listeners, Ronn, Matt, thank you guys so much

Kevin Dieny:

for coming on and talking about this.

Matt Widmyer:

Thanks for having us.

Ronn Burner:

No, thanks for having us.

Ronn Burner:

It's awesome.

Ronn Burner:

Happy to be here.

Kevin Dieny:

All right, everybody.

Kevin Dieny:

Get your emails going, build your lists, get your list going.

Kevin Dieny:

A lot of money's in the list like Ronn mentioned.

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