Shownotes
Facing Retirement: "But isn't it interesting that once you retire, as we call it, right, and you leave that organization...you're faced with that "what am I gonna do now?" Well, what do I wanna do? Well, you haven't thought about it because remember, those thirty years, they were spent all about the organization, all about the next career move, the promotion, the stock options, the 401k." - Eric Pennington, Spirit of EQ
We look into the complex and often misunderstood concept of retirement with the guidance of expert guest, Eric Pennington. As the managing partner of Spirit of EQ and author of "The Well-being Guide," Eric brings a unique perspective on the emotional intelligence required to face retirement's challenges and opportunities.
Together, we explore the fear and misconceptions surrounding retirement, the pressure from societal norms and marketing, and the essential resources needed for a fulfilling post-career life.
Eric emphasizes the importance of self-discovery, building emotional intelligence, and preparing mentally and physically for this new chapter.
Whether you're nearing retirement age or just starting to consider your future, this episode offers valuable insights on redefining retirement and creating a meaningful and purposeful life beyond traditional career paths. We uncover the myths of retirement and learn how to navigate the emotional journey toward this next adventure.
If you like this episode, please let us know. We appreciate the feed back, and your support of offset costs of producing the podcast!
Here are three key takeaways from our conversation:
- Rewire Your Mindset: Your brain is capable of being rewired, even as you approach retirement. Building emotional intelligence is crucial to facing retirement without fear. Embrace the idea of lifelong growth and redefine what retirement means to you.
- Build Your Resources: Whether it’s financial savings, health, or emotional support, start building your resources now. Remember, this isn't just about money. Focus on mental, physical, and emotional well-being to prepare for a fulfilling journey ahead.
- Curiosity and Purpose: Never stop asking questions about your purpose and emotional experiences. Cultivate curiosity and explore what genuinely matters to you, so that when the time comes, you know what your next step will be.
Episode Highlights
00:00 Developing Emotional Intelligence with Data
06:00 "Evolved Minds, Ancient Instincts"
07:51 Marketing and the "Not Enough" Culture
12:49 Challenging Age-Related Cultural Norms
14:17 "Age is Just a Number"
18:22 Retirement Planning and Adaptation
22:39 Defining Life's Next Journey
27:18 "Defining Life's Purpose"
28:09 "Post-Retirement Purpose Dilemma"
31:19 Exploring Self-Knowledge and Growth
36:55 Reflecting on Career Preferences
40:02 Weekend Retreat for Self-Discovery
42:50 "Empowerment Beyond Retirement Age"
46:00 "The Power of Curiosity"
48:37 Timely Adaptation Challenges
53:26 "Building Your Resource Pillars"
57:40 Insights on Thinking Fast and Slow
59:05 "Lisa Feldman Barrett Books"
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Recorded in Studio C at 511 Studios. A production of Circle 270 Media® Podcast Consultants.
The views and opinions expressed by the experts interviewed on this podcast are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views of the podcast hosts or any affiliated organizations. The information provided in these interviews is for general informational purposes only and should not be considered as professional advice. Listeners are encouraged to consult with qualified professionals for specific advice or information related to their individual circumstances. The podcast host and producers do not endorse or guarantee the accuracy, completeness, or reliability of any information provided by the experts interviewed. Listener discretion is advised.
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Copyright 2025 Carol Ventresca and Brett Johnson
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Listener Disclaimer
The views and opinions expressed by the experts interviewed on this podcast are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views of the podcast hosts or any affiliated organizations. The information provided in these interviews is for general informational purposes only and should not be considered as professional advice. Listeners are encouraged to consult with qualified professionals for specific advice or information related to their individual circumstances. The podcast host and producers do not endorse or guarantee the accuracy, completeness, or reliability of any information provided by the experts interviewed. Listener discretion is advised.
Transcripts
We are looking forward our way. Hi. This is Brett. Carol and I have had many conversation on the changes which occur in our lives as we age and are reaching for retirement. Today's guest is gonna lead us through the issues and challenges we face as we prepare for that next adventure. Let's welcome our expert guest, Eric Pennington, managing partner at Spirit of EQ. Their goal is to assist organizations and individuals grow their emotional intelligence. Eric leads the organization's strategy for keeping the mission moving and growing.
Brett Johnson [:Eric is also the author of the well-being guide, making the most of life and work, which a practical guide offering readers the opportunity to evaluate their own lives through self discovery, and he is the cohost of the Spirit of EQ podcast. Eric, thank you for joining us.
Eric Pennington [:Hello. Thank you.
Carol Ventresca [:Eric, it's wonderful to see you again. I'm so glad you're joining us today. And, you know, this topic is really of interest to me because I have worked with so many older adults and others who are wondering what's next. You know, they want to retire, but they're really concerned about making sure they can keep busy and what does that mean. It's a difficult situation for them. Many don't retire until they can answer that question. But before we actually delve into the topic, tell our audience more about you and your organization.
Eric Pennington [:Sure. Well, Brett did a wonderful job in his intro, but Spirit of EQ really is an emotional intelligence data and people development company. And I say it that way because we use data in a big way to to actually assess where are people at with their EQ. And then we help them build a practice around emotional intelligence, or again, as I call it, EQ. Because what we have found is that the concepts and the subject matter is of great interest these days. However, like many things, the execution or implementation of the subject is far more difficult. So we try to put a strong emphasis on building something that happens over time. Because most of the people who come to it, whether they're a group, organization, or an individual, whatever it may be, they they, they have a somewhat limited scope about what this is all about.
Eric Pennington [:And not to mention the pressure that AI puts on the whole deal. And I I don't think you guys probably can get through an episode without somebody mentioning AI. But the reality of that, and and I'm in the emotions business, so my perspective is, you know, AI puts a great deal of pressure on folks to seek instantaneous answers. Right? And that's really great when you're trying to determine whether or not a certain equation is the best one for that particular business model. It's not so great when it comes to human beings and their development. So our approach is, as I mentioned, data and people development leading to a practice of EQ.
Brett Johnson [:So, why do you think we fear retirement? I mean, is it the notion of growing old? Are are we fearful of double lung growth actually being needed in our job and even you know, let's let's talk about, you know, needed in our in our community.
Eric Pennington [:I think fear is probably one of the most prevalent, And it's not helped any, Brett Carroll, by our media that typically pounds that same kind of approach. Right? A la, do you have enough for retirement? Will you run out of money before you die? I mean, all of these different scenarios that really are activators of fear. Now, again, I'm in the emotions business. So for me, fear is a wonderful emotion. But like many things, if left, not managed, harnessed, it can turn into a a huge driver in decision making. Right? And it the reality is is that retirement is a concept that I think we probably should reexamine and and what it means. And that maybe this fear that we have about it is not really founded. Because if you think about it, you know, what should I fear about retirement? Yeah.
Eric Pennington [:If I've been spending my money and not saving a dime, and I'm now 62 years old, and I've never done any of that, well, I think that's probably appropriate that you'd have a bit of fear about, am I gonna have enough money? However, if we're kind of doing what we need to be doing, being prudent, being wise throughout our years, the idea about being concerned or or afraid that something foreboding is gonna happen is probably misplaced. And it kinda connects back to the work that we do is to help people understand how to manage this process that happens in our brain every day. So whether we're talking about retirement or about where we're gonna go on vacation or what school are we going to attend, whatever it may be, there's a process that your brain takes to come to that decision, good or bad.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. I think your point. You make you make a really good point about the fear the the fear mongering of will you have enough? Will you be able to do that? If that was taken out of the equation, if we did not hear that from marketing, would we be afraid of this? Yes. We'd question about how much is enough. We would, of course, but it would be based on our community or and our friends and our family versus what the experts expect that we should have.
Eric Pennington [:Brett, when you think about it, you know, I I've heard this term used, you know, that our brain has not evolved very well over hundreds, thousands of years. Right? You know, it's almost like we're still operating as if we're a clan in the, you know, in the Northern Europe, you know, going to fight the next tribe type thing. Right? And and this is one where I think some of that is actually probably pretty appropriate because there is this thing in us, in our brain, the fear of the being cast out of the tribe. Right? The fear of not having enough. All of those different things. Right? And not to mention the fact that all of us created some level of core beliefs when we were very, very young, and the vast majority of us never probably stopped when we were 21, 20 five, 20 eight, keep going, right, to question those core beliefs. So those things become the the the blueprint for how our brain works. And I say it that way because if you're thinking in terms you're getting messages that says, will I have enough? That goes to the core of us as human beings.
Eric Pennington [:Nobody wants to be without, whether it be food, shelter, clothing, money, whatever it may be. But here's the real good news for your audience. Our brains can be rewired. We can think differently about things like retirement, having enough, and all the rest. It takes work, but we can rewire our brains. And I know that may sound somewhat revolutionary to those out there, but the the reality is science proves that we can. It's just a matter, again, how much commitment are you willing to make to that work?
Carol Ventresca [:Eric, do you think that the issues of not enough, which truly transcend not just money, but health Mhmm. Family, friends, community, activities. A lot of that is driven even in those other areas by social media marketing, public relations. If you look at, any of the commercials, they range from, are you going to have enough money to, well, you've got this disease, so here's how here's the medication that you need to to fix it. And all of the folks are, you know, on the golf course or, yeah, or or riding their bicycles or, you know, whatever. But it's all it's like all of the messages we're receiving, it's not just that we don't have enough, but we ourselves are not enough. That we haven't really put ourselves on a path to be to to have a successful life path, not just to retirement, but a con a complete life path. But it isn't that where marketing really is right now? You need this.
Carol Ventresca [:You're not good enough. You need this.
Eric Pennington [:It's if I didn't know any better, I'd say it's a conspiracy. A real one. Correct. So I should qualify that a real conspiracy. Exactly right. Because, Carol, what you just described is probably, the whiteboard of many marketers who are making commercials, doing, you know, social media or whatever it may be because it's a powerful sway. Because if you can convince me that I should be afraid that I will not have enough money, I'll probably how do I fix that? How how what do I need to do? Right? And and that's that's probably marketing one zero one. I'm you know, this idea that you are doing without.
Eric Pennington [:And since you're doing without, you have to address that. And that creates a a bit of anxiety, you know, urgency, whatever may come to you. Each person is different. But I think, yeah, you're you're on you're on mark. And I think there's also something else too, and we find this in our work, is people, at least in our current day, have not spent a lot of time exploring what their emotions mean and what they're maybe trying to tell us. Right? We we we've done a really bad job at classifying what emotions are. We've done a really bad job at understanding what they mean. And I'm not saying that to, you know, to lecture your audience to say, you you know, you you should have, you why didn't you? I'm saying it to say the opportunity, that's one you'd wanna figure out.
Eric Pennington [:Mhmm. Because when you start to It might be just trying to get your attention to why don't you go visit that financial planner? Why don't you think about what you might wanna do once this particular career path comes to a close? But if you don't spend time paying attention, well, it'll do what it will do. I mean Mhmm. I mean and, again, when you have messages that are can be continually telling you that you're not enough, you don't have enough, what if, what if, what if, that's really hard for the average person to to resist.
Carol Ventresca [:My my next question came from the fact that I was wrestling with where did this start? You know, I can remember as a child, when an older adult came of age.
Eric Pennington [:Mhmm.
Carol Ventresca [:Suddenly, they were old and everybody was fearful of going to a nursing home because, of course, that was the kiss of death. Where did our society stop not just respecting and approving of age, but literally shying away, trying to stay away from aging. We're we're we baby boomers are really famous for trying to prove that we're still young. So where where did that happen?
Eric Pennington [:Yeah. I I can't really tell you, Carol, precisely, but I think it has something to do with these cultural norms that we've been fed. For example, well, you're you're 65, so you you should probably just take it easy, move out of the way. Let the younger generation. Right?
Carol Ventresca [:Right.
Eric Pennington [:There are those that believe that message, and they may not really want to do that, but they may be convinced in their mind that that is true. And if the cultural norms fed by marketing, right, that says, well, my gosh, you are 68. You are whatever the number is, you should be thinking about taking it easy. You should think about where do you wanna live and vacation and play golf, whatever it may be. Take it easy. Those are things that are, for lack of a better way of saying it, those are man made concepts that don't necessarily line up with reality. And don't get me wrong. I do believe, yes, I know, there are people who are 68 years old, and they are in debilitating health, and they can't do any type of work.
Eric Pennington [:They they are going to have a sedentary life for whatever reason. Right? Again, from a health perspective. But I don't believe that describes the vast majority. And I'm I'm of the mind that our perspectives and how we think, then again, how we manage those emotions so that we can make a good choice. Right? So that we can go, you know what? I understand. Culture, society kind of worships at the altar of youth and that all great things come from youth. But I'm still I still have dreams, and I still have things I wanna do. So I'm going to do them.
Eric Pennington [:And and if I may, I know I may be a little long here, I'll give you a story of of someone I know who's well into his seventies. And he was starting to feel and he and he told me, he said, Eric, I think this ageism thing is is a real thing. And I and I you know, my time is probably I mean, he was basically saying it's time for me to to shut it down and and just get out of the the game. And I said, do you remember that quote, from Satchel Paige? And he kinda looks at me, and I I I don't remember that. And I go, well, let me tell you. It goes something like this. How old would you be if you didn't know how old you are? Yeah. Yes.
Eric Pennington [:And I told him, I said, you do not act like a 72 year old. So maybe maybe you're taking on the messaging from other people and other entities and transferring that into your own mindset. If you wanna act old, yeah, there's tons of people out there that act old. But to me, if you've got the energy and you got the drive, the purpose, why would you stop? I mean, I I give someone please give me, you know, a good answer. Why would you stop? So from that perspective, Carol, I I don't know when that started, but I think those contributing factors, have driven there's probably a number of folks who I think probably could be making major contributions, but we're told, you know, you're you're too old, whatever that may be.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. Yeah. Well and, you know, we do play some artificial age, not limitations, but there's markers in time, like the 65 or the 68 when Social Security can kick in or that you have to start, you know, pulling IRA money because of tax implications and such. So I think those things we have to work with against sort of thing. But, you know, we've always talked about that, you know, whatever your situation, you're gonna have to plan to be successful. So if you know those markers and time are there, know to work with it. So, I mean, let's talk about that mindset. Okay.
Brett Johnson [:We know we're nearing let's say we're nearing that age that whatever that age is that be? I mean, how do we how do we prepare for that? Even though we're not gonna say, okay. Time, I'm I'm retiring, but we also know, like, wow. I'm 68, and I need to start doing this. Some there's some sub subconscious stuff going on there that may be triggering us that we are now old. How do we change our mindset to that? And maybe a little bit to what you had just alluded there. You're as young as you or you're old as you think you are, but we do have to prepare for that.
Eric Pennington [:Absolutely. And and I know, Brett, when I've made pronouncements in my family and even to our financial planner, that I'm never gonna retire. I'll retire when I take my last breath. I I mean, I get the looks. Right? There's no doubt about it. But my point is not that I want to do exactly the same thing I'm doing today. It it probably will look different as it should, just like it looked different when I was 25. I mean, I don't wanna go back to being the ignorant, know it all 25 year old who thought he ruled the world and everybody should just listen to me.
Eric Pennington [:I'm sorry. I don't want to be that guy again. I really don't.
Brett Johnson [:I like it. But when you're 75, you could pull it off, though.
Carol Ventresca [:Oh. If
Brett Johnson [:not just say, yeah. He's, you know,
Carol Ventresca [:like, you know, but done that.
Eric Pennington [:Oh my gosh. Right? But my goodness. I like the wisdom and knowledge that I've gained over these years. Right? I don't wanna go back to that ignorance because I I'm I'm actually aghast at some of the things that I said and did at that age. But here's here's where I'm going with that. The the the reality is is that, yes, you should save your money. Yes. You should invest it.
Eric Pennington [:Yes. You should plan for when you're gonna have to take a a a required withdrawal from your IRA or when you're gonna have to do something different with Social Security, whatever the case may be. Go ahead and do it. You're just pivoting. You know? I mean, what you did twenty years ago is different than what you're doing today, which will be different than so for some people, I think and, Kara, I think you might have asked this earlier about, you know, this fear and and it's true. There's also this sense of of mortality. I mean, we know the range of time that the average human being in The United States, be it male or female, whatever, is gonna have to be here. And and I I obviously, this is not a show to delve into that subject matter, but I I do believe that's part of the root.
Eric Pennington [:In the mindset thing though is that, again, since our brain has all this plasticity, right, why why don't we start to change the mindset by rewiring, by telling ourselves, you know what? No. It's I I don't wanna stop. I I may not wanna work for JPMorgan Chase for the rest of my days. I might not wanna work for Coca Cola for the rest of my days, but I I I think I have some things I wanna contribute to. There's some places I wanna volunteer. There's some businesses I wanna start. Because even if those don't work out, Brett, you're alluding to a mindset, meaning how do I see things in my head? How do I view them? Right? I think that's huge. The other part is build your resources now.
Eric Pennington [:Both you and Carol know about a personal event in my life with my family that was it was it was tragic. It was near really, really tragic, I guess, if I can say it that way. But I had someone ask me, I don't know how you're doing it. What what well, how are you handling this? And I said, you know, I think it's because I started five years ago. I started building resource. And that's not a that's not a, hey. Eric is such a great guy and so smart and wonderful. It's not about that.
Eric Pennington [:But it's just the practical thing. Build your resources early. And that doesn't mean that if you're 58 and listening to this podcast that it's too late. That's not what I mean. I'm just saying wherever you may be on this time continuum, start building your resources. And I I believe, Brett, mindset's included in the the building of the resources. The the the we far underestimate the power of that. And and a wise mentor told me once, the reason why you build your resources while you can is because when the crisis comes, you'll only be able to draw on the resources that you've built up until that time.
Carol Ventresca [:Mhmm. Yeah. Right. So and and I think, really, building those resources includes the notion of when you're saying rewiring your brain. Part of that for me was to redefine what retirement meant for me. Exactly. And and that's one of the things that I have said to clients and individuals who have talked to me about my retirement, was because I basically said I hadn't planned to retire. I left a position with the intention of doing something else.
Eric Pennington [:Mhmm.
Carol Ventresca [:And I had been building resources for years, not necessarily for that, but just for my own needs and, my agency at the time. But, also, COVID hit, and so I had to pivot. So I had the resources to be able to pivot. And, luckily, could go in completely different directions, and I was just fine. But a lot of folks, really, as you said, I you'd you may not wanna work for Chase or AT and T or whomever, forever, but that is the only resource they had. That that was, you know, only that's their that their world was really, really small.
Eric Pennington [:And the
Carol Ventresca [:notion of building resources outside of that world is huge. So let's think in terms of what are the kinds of important things we need to ask ourselves when we're hitting these milestones. You know, not just what is retirement to me, but what are my next journey? What's my next journey going to be? What are the next steps I can and cannot take? What kinds of changes do I wanna make? And, really, what do I want to do, and what do I not wanna do? Which a lot of folks can tell you what they don't wanna do. They can't tell you what they wanna do.
Eric Pennington [:Yes. And, Carol, I I I'm gonna start by going back to your last comments there and then go into that. You know, this idea of building resources, and I think you guys, as well as your audience know, we're not just talking about the financial resources.
Carol Ventresca [:Okay.
Eric Pennington [:There's there's this physical health resources.
Carol Ventresca [:Right.
Eric Pennington [:I've seen so many people in family and outside of family that will literally burn themselves to the very nth for a career over twenty, thirty years and leave everything else in the dust. Mhmm. Only to find that, wow. Yeah. I did it. I invested, and I have a lot of money. But that money now is going to pay for what I let go what I didn't build resources in, as in health. And I don't have to tell anyone the cost of health care is unbelievably high.
Eric Pennington [:The cost of assisted living and nursing home care, astronomical. And I get it. Some of us, we're gonna draw the unlucky number, and it's just gonna happen to us. That's just the way life goes. But there are also a number of us that, no, you're not you're not in that harm's way. But I can almost guarantee, if you ignore your health for twenty, thirty years and don't build any resources around that, it's gonna cost you. And I I'd hate to see that. I I I mean but, again, when the culture, be it through marketing or otherwise, is telling you everything begins and ends with your career, you you it's Mhmm.
Eric Pennington [:It it it's it's dangerous. So
Carol Ventresca [:Let me let me just also add to that for for the audience, when we're saying resources for health care, we're not just talking about who's your doctor, what hospital do you wanna go to. It's really bigger than that because particularly for older adults, there are a lot of resources out there to help you Mhmm. Live a fruitful life, live a safe in a safe environment at home or or another location.
Eric Pennington [:Yep.
Carol Ventresca [:But people don't ask the questions. I mean, it's not just that they haven't put the resources together ahead of time, but they're not asking the questions of what's out there to help them.
Eric Pennington [:Yeah.
Carol Ventresca [:And, Carol They're they're on that path, and they can't get off of it.
Eric Pennington [:Yeah. And your point, leading into the to your last question, you know, when we think about what we wanna do, how we wanna do it, asking those questions. Again, I'll go back to the work we do at Spirit of EQ. That familiarity with our emotions as well as our thoughts. Mhmm. Getting them both to work together for the optimal decision. Because if you lean on one and not the other, right, if you you find yourself, I'm gonna go all analytical. I'm gonna I'm gonna focus on logic.
Eric Pennington [:And you don't factor in emotion. I mean, you you're at a disadvantage, just as it is for the other side. If you're purely emotional, right, and you're not giving a lot of attention to the analytical, dangerous. Right? Because I think when we get those two to work together, we position ourselves to be able to ask the right questions. And logically, maybe, if you wanna call it that, we come to that optimal decision. That's a key starting point, I believe. Right? And I think it also has to do with with purpose. And you kind of alluded to it there at the end of your question, you know, this idea about what do I want? Mhmm.
Eric Pennington [:You know, what what exactly do I want this to look like? And this is a tough one. Because, again, you don't get you're not in a society. There's not a lot of messaging around, hey. Have you defined what your purpose in life is? I don't recall seeing I don't know if I've ever seen a commercial that really even I don't know how many social me well, social media has those who are wanting to be influencers who will talk that way. But in the end, I mean, is there really a strong force in our society that says, hey. It's great that you've got that advanced degree, but have you determined your purpose? Typically not. I don't think Jamie Dimon at Chase, and he's just in my head. So for those of you who work for Chase, love Chase and all that, this is not my I'm not throwing any I'm not throwing any stones.
Eric Pennington [:But his company is probably not putting a lot of emphasis on that. And I'm not trying to judge again to say that they should or shouldn't or how much percentage wise. I'm just saying overall, the messaging does not go there. Right? But isn't it interesting that once you retire, as we call it, right, and you lead that organization, regardless of the name on the on the sign, right, or on the building, you're faced with that, well, well, what am I gonna do now? Well, what what do I wanna do? Well, you haven't thought about it because remember, those thirty years, they were spent all about the organization, all about the next career move, the promotion, the stock options, the four zero one k. And notice I'm not saying that all those things are bad. I'm saying but if you do those exclusively and don't include some kind of okay. Well, what is my purpose? What what does get me up and and and make me excited? What makes me come alive? Well, then I'd I'd say, man, that that day that you're now no longer a part of x y z organization is is gonna be a bit challenging. Now my optimism kicks in.
Eric Pennington [:I go, you've never thought about it? Okay. Today's your day. You can start thinking about it at 62, 60 eight, 70, 70 I don't care what age. As long as the brain is working and you've got the ability to put it together, you can begin to search and find your purpose. Now I get it. There's life is a limited time offer, and you may not have as many years as if you had started when you were 35. But, oh my, go ahead and start today.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. I I, looking at as we move forward and sometimes they call this retirement era or when we start to slow, you know, slow things down a little bit, but redo things. Our third chapter of life, basically. And now I get the golden opportunity of being a part of when you record your Spirit of EQ podcast. So this is gonna be a shameless plug for the Spirit of EQ. And Thank you. In advance. Yeah.
Brett Johnson [:And and actually talking about an episode that I think maybe I'll by the time this episode's out, but I'm gonna reference it. It's episode one forty two. And while you're talking about this, it it it reminded me of the what we're gonna call that episode, mystery of neural pathways and that self evaluation mode. That what a great opportunity to prepare ourselves emotionally by really taking a look at who you are at that point in time. And it kinda goes back to a little bit. And and and I wanna ask, how do we prepare ourselves emotionally? Is is it a how do we take a look at that? Okay. Who am I? Who am I right now, and how do I move forward? Because I let that job define me for thirty years. Now what do I do? And I I guess I ask you, how do we how can you go through a process of some self evaluation at that point in time?
Eric Pennington [:Yeah. So, once again, thank you for the plug for our episode. I I I think I'm gonna take it back to the building of resources, right, and thinking in terms of, okay, What's the best way for me to know what I wanna do? I believe it's growing your self knowledge. It's getting to know Eric better, getting to know Brett better, getting to know Carol better. What what what is it that makes you afraid, Brett, Carol, Eric? What is it that gets you excited? What is it that gets you to pause? What breaks your heart? And just begin the exploration. And I totally get it. All of us have trauma in our backgrounds. All of us have had experiences.
Eric Pennington [:There are things that we'd prefer not to talk about. There's that experience from ten years ago, twenty years ago, whatever it may be. But you don't have to tackle it all at once. That's not what I'm advocating. Maybe you need to maybe you need to go to a therapist to help you to be able to come to terms with that trauma situation. Maybe maybe it's a pastor or a priest or, you know, whatever it may be that that can kinda help you navigate. But I can tell you, the better that you know you, the decision making thing goes up exponentially. Right? Because this process is one of okay.
Eric Pennington [:And I've used this analogy, and Brett, you've probably heard it before. It's like game film. You know, why does a professional athlete or even an amateur athlete watch game film? Well, they wanna see what the opponent is doing. They wanna understand why they stand the way they do. Why they run at a certain stride. Why do they but they also wanna know about their own tendencies. Why is it that I always go to the left? Why is it that when we play this particular team, I get really, really nervous, and I and I I'm not the same player. We should be doing that on ourselves.
Eric Pennington [:Now if if key thing here, you gotta be curious and not judgmental. Stealing from uncle Walt. Right? But the reality of that is if we can if we can be just curious, like, I'm I'm gonna look at my game film. I'm not gonna judge it. I'm not gonna do the I should've. I wish I would've. I could've. I'm not, I if you can stay away from that and just go, I'm gonna watch.
Eric Pennington [:I'm gonna watch my own game film. How do I behave? How what do I do? That's getting to know yourself. That's getting to know what makes you tick, why you operate the way you do. And the better that knowledge is, confidence grows, courage grows. And then all of a sudden, Brett, when you come to me at sixty five and say, hey, Eric. I got this great business idea. It's in cryptocurrency. We're gonna make millions.
Eric Pennington [:And you know me. I don't I don't say these things lightly. Let's do it. If I know myself, I can check my I can check-in. Is wait a minute. I'm not really that interested in making more money. That that doesn't no. With the time I have left but here's the opposite end of that.
Eric Pennington [:If I don't know myself, if I haven't explored my emotions, I I I don't know how my brain works, Maybe I'll be feel the pressure of Brett's enthusiasm and his it's a sure thing. And maybe I'll decide, well, okay. Sure. And you'd say, but, man, it it's crypto, and it's not it's it's very risky and on but, Brett, I don't know myself. So what do I got to reference? What resources can I draw on? I haven't built any. And, again, I wanna stress to to to your audience, you can start today.
Carol Ventresca [:Right. Yeah.
Eric Pennington [:And and I'm stealing from Bill Ackman. I've got all these quotes in my head from all these people. Hedge fund manager Bill Ackman said, progress is like money. It compounds over time.
Carol Ventresca [:Right. I was thinking the same thing. It it being prepared on your financials, the one thing we always tell our young relatives, put $10 in the bank today because it's gonna be worth this much in thirty years. That compound interest, get one resource today, and it's going to compound. It's going to provide other resources for you.
Eric Pennington [:Read one book. Listen to another podcast.
Carol Ventresca [:Right.
Eric Pennington [:Yeah. Take someone to coffee to pick their brain just a little bit more, a little bit more, and it does. It compounds. And, again, our brains have so much of this plasticity that we can change the way that we think about these things. And I think that's the big key. I mean, you guys have uttered the word mindset. It it it is it's essential. Because without that, you're gonna be at the mercy of the tide of marketing and the tide of of of cultural influence.
Eric Pennington [:You know? What my dad did. What my mom said I should do. Right? All those things, those forces are really powerful, and they will carry you. But I think as we as we build the resources and which leads to that mindset, a healthy mindset, a a robust mindset, we position ourselves to be making these optimal decisions into retirement, as we call it, more so than we are without it.
Carol Ventresca [:I when I was, starting to contemplate leaving my nonprofit and, thinking about, you know, what did I like doing? What did I I didn't like doing? The biggest joke was somebody said, Carol, you're really good at writing grants. You could make a ton of money writing grants. And I'm like, I hate writing grants. I wouldn't write a grant again for love nor money. And And if I wanted to write grants, I'd stay with my agency because that's all I was doing was writing grant reports. But what I really did was give myself the opportunity of time. And and that was how I was able to sit back and think, here's everything I've done, not just in this job, but other jobs. Of all of those things, what did I enjoy doing? What did I enjoy a lot? Enjoy kinda, not enjoy at all.
Carol Ventresca [:And then what were the skills that I needed in the in the things that I enjoyed? And that really put me on a path of what I wanted to do next. Now as I said, COVID kinda got in the way. And then, Brett kept emailing me saying, we have to do more podcasting. So that sort of swayed me a little bit. But when somebody is willing to give themselves the time, willing to start asking those questions both analytically and emotionally, and they're starting to put that together, what are the next steps?
Eric Pennington [:Oh, sure.
Carol Ventresca [:You could, you know, you could sit there with, like, your thoughts going crazy. How do you, like, hone in?
Eric Pennington [:Well, it's interesting. And, again, this might end up on your editing room floor. We we did a podcast with a lady, I believe she's in, Denmark, Lyndall Farley, and she's a sabbatical coach. And her whole
Carol Ventresca [:Oh.
Eric Pennington [:Her whole mission is all around taking sabbaticals, how it works, how it can be a benefit. I mean, it it's a great episode, but she speaks to a lot of what you just said. Is the giving of yourself of giving time to do that self reflection, to do to build that self knowledge. Right? And I think that's essential. And, obviously, when people typically, when they hear sabbatical, they think of this long extended, you know, my employer will never go for that or, you know, I don't think I could pull that off or whatever. And and some of that, if you're doing the official sabbatical as it is defined, yes, it does maybe look that way. But she made it clear, it does not have to be the six months away from your workplace. And I would say if if if the economics don't make sense, if the employer situation is not optimal for it, you can plan micro sabbaticals.
Eric Pennington [:Maybe the next five weekends, you're gonna go to Hocking Hills, and you're just gonna spend your weekend there. And you're gonna spend that time thinking about, reflecting on, and building a plan, and asking yourself those powerful questions so that you can craft and have a good sense about what you wanna do next. I I think that giving yourself that margin is huge. I I would also say and and I've been really focusing a lot on this in my own life, is this idea again about core beliefs. Because what typically happens with us, once again, is these core beliefs get developed in childhood, and they birth neural pathways. And we begin we go out into the world with them, and we operate as if what I created to survive my family environment, my church environment, whatever, is still applicable. Right? And for some, this is a deep work, and it may require the help of a professional. And I suggest that wholeheartedly.
Eric Pennington [:Or you could do what I did. I wrote down a list. What are my core beliefs? And I questioned him. Is this true? Is this belief really true? Is it applicable? Is it still useful? Then, okay. What do I do with it? Do I agree with it? Do I do I think that I'm not good enough? Because when I was eight years old, I was told you're never gonna amount to anything. You're not smart. Is that really true? You know, I I even went the path, guys, of writing down the contrary to that negative type of core belief. So take the example.
Eric Pennington [:Someone who says, I I I'm not good enough. I I I'm not good enough. Well, hold on. I want you to write a list of all the times you were good enough. I mean, every time you got the job, every time someone asked for your help. And I said, I bet you anything, you'll get a list that's quite long. Oh, wow. So you mean I don't have to, like, think like this anymore? No.
Eric Pennington [:You don't. Again, it's not an overnight magic cure type thing, but it's back to that rewiring of your brain. It's back to building a different way of thinking, a different mindset.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. Just just for reference, that sabbatical episode is episode number one thirty seven. I had to look it up really quickly.
Eric Pennington [:So just Oh my god.
Brett Johnson [:Just so you know. I mean, let's just just do the right thing and let the listener know how to go back and Very good, Brent. Know.
Eric Pennington [:Very good. Thank you.
Carol Ventresca [:Brent with we'll we'll make sure that all of those Yeah. Links are in our resources
Eric Pennington [:Sure.
Carol Ventresca [:For this podcast so that we make sure that folks can go back and listen to Spirit of EQ podcast too. You know, I wanna just add on to what you just said because although our our emphasis in this podcast is on retirement, what you just explained is something we could do at any time in our life. We don't have to wait till we're fifty five, sixty, 60 five. This is something that a 25 year old can do because chances are pretty good. They've been told along the line, well, you know, you're not really that smart. You're not going to Harvard. You know, your degree from this little college is gonna get you this far and you know, but you'll be okay. Just stick with your job.
Carol Ventresca [:You'll be okay. Any age. Any age.
Eric Pennington [:Carol. And that's that is where the power of curiosity comes in. Because I think what happens is we take well meaning advice Mhmm. And we or matter of fact, you can even take stupid advice. Okay? Right?
Carol Ventresca [:Well meaning, but stupid.
Eric Pennington [:Okay. Well meaning. I mean, it could be absolutely the worst. Right? And if we can be curious and go, okay. I'm not gonna judge the person that said that to me. I'm not gonna I'm not gonna make them a villain. Is it true? Is it true I can only get this far because I didn't go to Harvard? Does that mean I'm not smart? Because I think what happens is we wanna attach a villain to everything. Right? There needs to be a hero and a villain.
Eric Pennington [:Yeah.
Carol Ventresca [:You know? Right.
Eric Pennington [:Somebody's right and somebody's wrong. I I'm coming at it from a much more non dualistic perspective. It's like, okay. Well, maybe your dad was having a really bad day, and he was frustrated in the moment you asked him. And he and he blew up, and he said it, but it was because he had a bad day. And maybe your dad wasn't the type that he could, like, come back later and go, you know, I probably shouldn't have said that. I'm very sorry. I apologize.
Eric Pennington [:Maybe like you and like me and like the rest of the human population, we make mistakes.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah.
Eric Pennington [:So that should free us up, right, to kinda go, well, let me just examine this thing that I've been believing, this this idea. And if it's not useful to you, why don't you just let it go?
Brett Johnson [:And Put it aside.
Eric Pennington [:Put it aside. And and I I I have to say it this way too, and then maybe to exhaustion here. I understand these things can hurt. They can be really, really deep and powerful that way. I'm not saying you just wake up tomorrow and you do it and it's fine. Maybe for some, it is that. But for some, you might need some help. You might need someone to come alongside of you and help you process it and help you kind of okay.
Eric Pennington [:I gotta build the courage. I can't take all five steps. I can only only have the strength to take two. Cool. Let's just take two today. So I I I really wanna stress that too because it is it's some of this stuff can be really daunting. So daunting that some people will just they'll go the other way.
Carol Ventresca [:And and that really goes back to that notion of building your resources. I love that note. When you're saying it's the power of curiosity, oftentimes, folks would say to me, you're really a good networker. And I said, well, the problem is is that I am just nosy. I love hearing what other people do, Not that it's making any impact on me personally, but just having that, vision their vision, their, their little sparks that are out there that could help me give a spark to a client. So that that notion of learning and learning and learning, it can build your own. It can build for for your for your own resource base too. Sometimes my my friends get they don't wanna ask me for, referrals and resources because then I inundate them with information, and they're overwhelmed.
Carol Ventresca [:I just did that to a friend, and I'm like, oh, I should probably shouldn't have done that. But
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. Yeah. You know, up to this point, we've really kinda talked about getting up to that point of where you're looking at that third chapter or semi retirement or you're doing something a little bit different. Let's take a look at now you're there. You're at 70 and 75. And we talked about this. It's never too late to begin again, I guess you could say. But we also know father time is staring us down, that we know, okay.
Brett Johnson [:I'm not 25 anymore. I'm 75. So how can we emotionally take a look at we're 65, 70, 70 five and reevaluate? Am I still happy? But I'm stuck at 75. How can I change things? I'm 75. I may only live for another who knows how long I'm gonna live? I don't have that time on my side, but we should. Shouldn't we take a look at that? So you're 75. Big deal. Change.
Brett Johnson [:If you're not happy, why wouldn't you at that time? I mean, how how should we address that?
Eric Pennington [:Yeah. That's a great question. And I think it's it's really the example of two types of people. Right? The first type of person has probably built the resources over time. Right? And they they know how to navigate. They they've they've done some exploration of themselves. They may have developed their emotional intelligence. And it life looks different at 75 to them, but they know how to navigate.
Eric Pennington [:They're in tune. Right? Yeah. And I think for those people, it's not easy, but the navigation of that time is probably very efficient and productive. They're more than likely to come out, you know, on the other side of it with, okay, This is my next move. This is what I'm gonna do next and and such. If the person has started late, it it's gonna be more challenging because the reality of father time, as you alluded to earlier, Brett, is that it is that thing. It you you you've you've you've taken a lot of hits. You've lost.
Eric Pennington [:You've seen a lot. And it's just your energy levels, all of that are are are different and less probably. Right? I mean, they're not as robust. So it's gonna be harder, I think, for that person. It's not impossible. Right? My mom is 91 years old, and I don't know if it was a month or so ago. I made a suggestion to her. I said, hey, mom.
Eric Pennington [:When you get up from your chair, don't just immediately get up and start going directly to the kitchen. Pause for a little bit and do some marches. And she looked at me like, well, wait a minute. We ain't marches, Eric. I mean, come on. I'm 91. I said, no, mom. I'm not talking about you're, like, in a, you you know, a marching band.
Eric Pennington [:It's nothing like that. But it's just small little marches because what that'll do is it'll help the blood flow from your legs to move more efficiently upward so that you don't have the potential it reduces the chances of a fall. She doing it. Okay. Someone might say, she's 91. She's not going to well, see, there I think we go back into that cultural mindset thing again. 91, you know, she'll be lucky if. That's man made.
Eric Pennington [:That's not necessarily true. Right. Right? So for that person, they can begin to start to explore. Well, what are these things, in my life that I like? What don't I like? And what's my typical way of approaching this relationship? Oh, you know what? I'm I'm gonna go and I'll buy that book on EQ. I I know I'm not using it in the corporate world, but I can learn. Mhmm. And once again, even at 75, your brain still has a good bit of that plasticity. You can begin to think differently.
Eric Pennington [:Again, it's a lot harder for the person that has not done it before than that other person, right, that we gave the example of who built resources maybe twenty, thirty years prior. But I'm an optimist, so I I believe it's there at our disposal as long as we have all of the faculties and being able to put it together. That to me is the key. Yep. Okay.
Carol Ventresca [:You know, Eric, there was, when I was in one of my previous roles at Ohio State in continuing education, and we worked with adult students who often said to us, you know, I'm 30 years old. If I go back to school now, I could be 40 before I actually get my degree. And one of our administrators very succinctly would look at the student and say, we are gonna be 41 way or the other. Do you want it with your degree or without your degree? And boy did that turn a lot of heads. And that I think that that I've been thinking about that all through our talk today. It kind of encapsulates that notion of try to give yourself some time being prepared, get your resources, think about this journey, and, yes, you can do it. That that kinda puts it all together. So for what it's worth, I thought I'd throw that in there.
Carol Ventresca [:Yeah. It's great. Before we leave you today, and thank you so much. This is amazing. We always ask our guests for their last words of wisdom. So, you know, if you have suggestions, resources, reading materials, whatever could assist our listeners, plus the you know, for our listeners, we will have contact information on Spirit of EQ. If you if this is something, you wanna ask Eric questions, I'm taking the assumption that he's shaking his head yes, that he won't Yes. Answer questions, you know, for a while.
Eric Pennington [:I will.
Carol Ventresca [:So thank thank you again. But what give us your last words of wisdom.
Eric Pennington [:Sure. Well, I'm gonna start with kind of a recapitalizing, if I can say it that way, of what we've kinda been talking about, and it's that idea about building your resources. And that that to me is is key. Right? Because, and maybe I'll call them the four pillars, you know, your mental, spiritual, emotional, and physical health. And make that a priority. And you know, in many respects, it's a way of analyzing, okay, well, what are what level of resources do I have in each of these four pillars? How strong are they? Because when those are strong, they don't they're not it's not designed so that it will prevent you from the crisis, or it'll keep you from a crisis, or or or a challenging time. It's just so that you have them there to help you to navigate when that occurs. Right? And to me, it's even as simple as I'm going to just write down those four areas, and I'm going to evaluate how am I doing that? How am I doing with my diet? How am I doing with exercise? How am I doing with, you know, managing my mental health? You know, how's my outlook? When was the last time I did go see a therapist? Are there areas of trauma in my life that I really haven't addressed that I probably should and I need help to do that? Once again, if you can do it with curiosity, you'll open up the doors.
Eric Pennington [:You'll begin to go, okay. I want this to get better. And I wonder if maybe reading that book, reading that, or going to see that counselor, therapist, whatever, that could be helpful. I'm gonna explore that because I'm curious. And I get it. Some might say, well, they don't accept insurance, so it's gonna be really, really expensive. Well, wait until you hear that. And then maybe even when you find out it's expensive, like, well, how much are you paying for these streaming services that you have? Maybe you give those up for six months so you can afford to have three sessions with a counselor.
Eric Pennington [:Whatever. Right? But it's again, you're you're trying to build the resources. Just continually building the resources. So a few other things I would throw out to you from a podcast perspective that I really, really have, gotten a lot out of. The first one, I'm gonna be selfish. Spirit of EQ podcast. Lots of episodes, a lot of self knowledge exploration. You'll get a lot out of it.
Eric Pennington [:And what I really appreciate is that we're not trying to sell you on our next book, our next event, and trying to get you to sign up for the email list. We really do put that podcast out because we want people to be able to grow their EQ. Now, in addition, there is one called Typology. This one is with Ian Morgan Cron. He is kind of the big, Enneagram expert. And he he typically has some really, really good guests that talk about things around personality, that, again, the self knowledge and and that type of thing. Another one I really like is the Huberman Lab, podcast. This comes with a warning.
Eric Pennington [:His podcasts are very long. Some people maybe have the time and the bandwidth to listen to three hours of podcast. Oh. But I can tell you, and he's very good about this, you can find, like in most shows, I think, these days, you know, time stamps. Hey. In time stamp, hour two and thirty seconds, they're talking about this thing. Well, then you can go there. Click on it.
Eric Pennington [:Boom. You start listening to it. So that makes his a bit more, a bit more digestible, if I can say it that way. And then I've got one other one that I particularly like to and this one is, maybe a little more, edgy in nature. But the guy can have some really good insights. His name is Scott Galloway, and I believe it's called the Professor G Podcast. He's a I think he's a professor at NYU. I think that's where that comes from.
Eric Pennington [:That that's that's that's another one that's really good. Again, he's he can be controversial. Nothing I mean, it's it's he's not off color, you know, nothing that's going to overtly offend you, but he's got some insights. And if you're curious, I'll go back to that, you can find some wisdom with what he what he talks about. Catalyst for that one is he had an episode about this book called Thinking Fast, Thinking Slow. I may have the title so wrong, Carol and Brett, but it's a book of really about EQ without it really actually mentioning EQ. And and if you think about it, you know, it's really kinda this idea about, okay, thinking fast applies to when I'm at the stoplight and the light goes from red to green. You think fast.
Eric Pennington [:You don't there's not you're not contemplating what do I do when the light is green now versus red. You go. But if your child comes to you, be they adult or otherwise, and says, I don't think I can do this anymore, you're You're not gonna apply fast thinking. You're gonna slow that down. Woah. Are you okay? What's going on? Tell me more about that. That's slow. And you can imagine what happens if you apply fast thinking to that kinda scenario.
Eric Pennington [:Right? So that's a book that I think is of real good value, and most recent on my list. It's been it was written some time ago. But, and then lastly, I know I'm kinda giving you a laundry list here. Lisa Feldman Barrett. She's a neuroscience professor, I believe, at Northeastern University. I'm not sure if it's exactly her if it's is she considered to be a neuroscience professor? It might be in psychology. But she's brilliant. Your listeners, could go and Google her name, and you'd find multiple books, sites, information.
Eric Pennington [:She's someone whom has influenced me greatly in understanding how the brain works and the connection to emotions. So that's a few.
Carol Ventresca [:Wonderful. Great. Thank you.
Brett Johnson [:Good. Yeah. Well, many thanks to our expert guest, Eric Pennington, managing partner of Spirit of EQ, for joining us today. Listener, thank you for joining us. You're gonna find contact information and the resources we discussed in the podcast show notes and on our website at lookingforwardourway.com, and we are looking forward to hearing your feedback on this or any of our other podcast episodes.
