David Peng on the show speaks about the evolution of brands from 2016 to 2023. Tracking the ICO era our guest today, highlights the points in history which lead to the major pivots leading to the maturity becoming evident in the industy today. From Starbucks to Nike's NFTs, community to trends, he speaks about the changes that the industry should look out for and how Webmint is bridging Web2 brands to the Web3 space.

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Webmint-David Peng

Participants:

• Nadja Bester (CEO & Co-founder of AdLunam)

• David Peng (CEO of Webmint)

00:23

Nadja

01:28

Nadja

02:37

Nadja

When I first came in, I came in as a journalist, so I had this perspective of you had the builders, but you also had the believers and kind of the confluence of all of these different people who this is where dreams were going to become a reality. Of course, over the years, idealism always sets in first and it's very important for there to be this idealistic approach. And then I mean realism. As one integrates into the existing systems and models that they already are, the space matures. It takes on a maturity that is much needed. I think at the moment, what I'm seeing, especially post most recent bear market brands, are taking things in a different direction. I think this is a conversation that is becoming so important because you have the Web3 purists who believe that in order for the space to remain and to become something, it has to be a complete you have to disembark from where you were on your way and head onto this new train.

03:49

Nadja

It's not practically very possible because we are entrenched in a society that already have certain ways of doing things. I'm very curious, in the context of these changes, how do you see Webmint at this time? Why now? Why is it different from all the other times during which you could have started, and what makes it different to start it at this time as opposed to a couple of years ago?

04:19

David

05:27

David

The last year we saw a huge uptake interest in NFTs, in the transactions on Open Sea and things like that. I think now is a time where brands are starting to look at different ways to engage their communities digitally, because we've reached a stage where now we're seeing more innovative products being born out of blockchain technology. So, for example, like the Metaverse, like Sandblox, Sandbox and Roblox I'm combining two metaverses here, coming through, as well as big brands like Starbucks and Nike entering the space and offering these ideas of co-creation and the ability to access exclusive events, merchandise and things like that.

06:14

Nadja

Yeah, I think this is what makes this so interesting, because I had a marketing agency or communications agency at the time of the ICO craze. That was really, I'm almost, in a sense, ashamed to admit it sometimes because it was a crazy period and there was so much of hope and opium almost in the air that it was a different time to experience the technology than it is now. I prefer the way that things are heading now because I think it's rooted in the future in a way that was not sustainable. It was too much of muchness it needed to be toned down. Partly that's due to regulations. I mean, it was really the wild waste and you could do whatever the hell you wanted without any consequences. I mean, we are living the consequences now because the industry has a very negative rap.

07:15

Nadja

Unfortunately, if you mention to someone I always put a caveat if I mention what industry I'm in or I feel like I need to know what don't worry, I'm not one of those bitcoin scammers. Definitely we've come through and I think we've survived, especially, as you say, as a lawyer, you really saw people coming in with lots of ideas, but it wasn't executable in the way that they wanted it to be. Because society, I mean, whether it will never be ready for it or it wasn't ready at that time, but it was a completely different way of thinking. Now tell me a bit about Webmint and where do you see yourself as a company? Because I think as I was saying earlier, you have these Web3 purists that are kind of pushing and I'm not using the term by any means in a negative light.

08:12

Nadja

I think it's very important to have the ideals and to be very focused on the ideals. You are also seeing a lot of brands coming in and navigating the space and making it their own, which is what they should be doing because ultimately it is just the technology. So how do you see Webmint? I mean, where do you position yourself? Maybe that's a better question.

08:36

David

Yeah, I think that's a good point on the purest side of things, not Webmint, web3 and NFTs in particular. It does have a Problem in the sense that it's all about tearing down the system and starting again with these ideas of centralization and ownership. The reality is, outside of this echo chamber of Web3 that we live in, the majority of people don't really care about decentralization or ownership and simply don't share the same sentiment. They are your average mom and dad consumers who understand Web2 as it is now and are not going to just abandon existing infrastructure which they've spent 20 years learning for this new form of internet. I think the way Webmint positions itself is we believe that the future of Web3 requires onboarding from Web2, so from traditional brands and for them to leverage their existing reach, their existing community, to bring their users into Web3.

09:47

David

We do that by building effectively a suite of no code and easy to use tools that enable brands to create Web3 experiences for their existing communities. One example of that is one of the more popular models that we see these days is brands wanting to launch NFTs that have some utility attached to them. If you are a coffee shop or a coffee provider launching an NFT that gives your users redeemable coffee on a daily basis, access to future merchandising, things like that.

10:30

Nadja

I think this is probably the most exciting aspect to all of this is as we continue to move away from this idea that everything needs to be tokenized. For example, everything needs to have a token, every token needs to perform. In the bull market it's great to have this kind of mentality until the market dies and then essentially your token is worth nothing. I mean, this is very much the hype mentality, of course, that we've become so accustomed to in this industry, for better or for worse. What I'm really excited about seeing is especially the technology of NFTs since this is the topic of the show today, is to really see this move beyond just the fundraising model. Because I think a lot of the Problem that we have been seeing in the web3 industry is very much related to the financial aspect, which of course, again, it's the draw card that gets a lot of people here and that's very good that people are interested.

11:39

Nadja

At the same time, this idea that in order to get to web3 we need the 2.5 and what does the 2.5 mean? Yes, for most people it doesn't mean they are going to become the next spokesperson for decentralization and ownership of data. I mean, they really don't care and they probably don't need to care because everyone my philosophy is we need to live in a world where these tools are all accessible to all of us. If you choose to care, you can get into it, but it should be available to you. I think this is really what I'm seeing in the market right now. I would love to get your perspective on who are these people that are being targeted because now it seems like there's a bigger shift on web 2.5 than there was before. Before it was almost you have this banner of mass adoption and whatever that means.

12:33

Nadja

One day mass adoption is going to come and now we have to go out there and we need to do the actual work. The actual work is in the 2.5. Who are people that through Webmint that you see segments of society that are becoming on boarded onto web3 without perhaps really realizing what is happening to them?

12:59

David

I think that's exactly the issue. It's the onboarding. I mean, without a smooth user, experience onboarding is going to be extremely difficult right now. For the average user who has no interest in crypto or NFTs, telling them to create a wallet and remembering a string of 24 words and then trying to explain that if you lose the 24 words, you lose all your assets is just bizarre and just crazy, right? If you try to explain that to someone who has no idea what this technology is about. What we're seeing and what we're building at Webmint is a lot of ways to onboard users with the infrastructure that they already have and are used to. What I mean by that is the ability to create a wallet or to purchase an NFT with your Gmail account, your Facebook account, your Instagram account, and the ability to purchase with a credit card or with fiat currency, as opposed to having to go into some DeFi app to acquire Ethereum or Matic to purchase your NFTs.

14:04

David

Those are the segments that are being targeted right now because I think with the mania and the hype of NFT dating back to July last year and then the crypto hype a few years before that, those who would have entered anyway by going through all the steps to get Web3 infrastructure have already done so. Now we're looking at easing that onboarding problem for those who are not yet in the space. I think one example of a brand that's done that really well is, I think, Reddit, who were able to, I think don't quote me on the actual numbers, but I think they were able to have 3 million wallets created on polygon. Even though their community were very much anti-NFT because they simply just sold, they marketed as digital collectibles rather than using the word NFT, which evokes a bunch of emotional reactions from a lot of people.

15:03

Nadja

Yeah, I mean, I think that Reddit is such a great example of the problem and also the solution, a potential solution, let's put it that way. I think Starbucks has done something similar in really, I mean, creating an NFT loyalty system but not focusing on the fact that it's NFTs. What I find very interesting is I'm writing a book this year and using Web3 technologies. Originally I set out the audience of the book was other people in Web3. I was taking a more philosophical approach to it. Because when I'm writing I mean, when you're writing a book, you tend to talk about it in everyday life as well. I now find myself having so many conversations that's 101. I've worked in the industry for years. Well, to be honest, people were not very interested in what I'm doing. Everyone knew I was doing that weird crypto, blockchain, NFTs, whatever that means, but people were not very interested.

16:11

Nadja

Now with the book, I find myself very often referring to the 101. This is the thing that comes up for me the most is people are genuinely curious. There's a lot of people who I mean, some people for sure have never heard of it, but most people that you speak to, especially if you talk to them at a level, if they respect you as a person, they're more open minded to hear what it is that you are doing. The next question is, okay, but how do I get involved? Up until now, I mean exactly as you say, you have to create a wallet and you have to remember this phrase and frankly it's too much for people who I mean, all of us are just trying to make ends meet in a digital world where we are constantly inundated with information, with content. Like we never slow down.

17:02

Nadja

Now there's this new layer on top of it. I really see the difference it's making if you have something like signing in with your Gmail account, if you are able to buy something with your credit card. So do you think that going forward? Because we've spoken a bit about NFTs as a Meta concept, as a technology. How do you think are we going to start seeing things integrated into everyday life? I mean, now, okay, there's a Reddit thing happening over there and there's a Starbucks thing, but it's very separate from everyday reality for most people. Do you think that there's going to come a point within the next and maybe this is a question to you how long do you think it's going to take for that to become an everyday experience? Maybe not for most people on the internet, but how social media became a thing?

17:59

Nadja

There was this mass consciousness where suddenly everyone was on Facebook and before no one was on there. So maybe this is the mass adoption. I think for me mass adoption is an illusion because we see this with the internet as well. There's no mass adoption in 1 second. It's an evolution. How do you see NFTs as a technology getting to the point where for most people they have been exposed to it even if they're not fully into it? How long do you think that's going to take?

18:37

David

I think that's the golden question that everyone, including investors, really want to know. I wish I did know, but it's really hard to say because I think you're right. With anything that requires mass adoption you have this like steady growth of users and then it just reaches the tipping point where all of a sudden everyone is on. I think it's more difficult to say with NFTs because NFT, it's not really a one description fits all concept. There are so many different ways that it can be used and so many applications. It's more like an underlying technology. People do start using it, I think more often than not they may not even know that they're necessarily using an entity or engaging. One way where I can see a lot of people beginning to use it is if there's institutional buy in. There's also one of the hottest use cases for NFTs at the moment is identity verification.

19:46

David

Verification of records, your driver's license, your bank account, your birth certificate, all of that being tied to like a soul bound token. That's basically an NFT that's linked to a specific wallet that cannot be transferred out. When organizations and institutions start using that and making that a requirement of users to verify their identity, I think that can be one way in which we will see a huge uptick in the number of users doing that. Of course, in order to do that, we need to build a lot of tools that ease the onboarding and the acquisition of NFT. Certainly the way it works right now would not lead to mass adoption. So I think that's one way. I think the other way in which we will see mass adoption is simply more brands using NFTs in their day to day interaction with their users. I think the problem with social media at the moment is that it's very one sided right now.

20:55

David

You'll see an ad, you'll see a picture, you'll see an image from your brand that you love, but there's no way that you can really interact with that brand or its community other than in a comment section. I think if brands start creating more multiplatform multimedia experiences that require some kind of ownership to participate, I.e. The holding of a token, we will then see a much larger uptake. Right now it's simply buying an NFT without understanding exactly what it does or what it unlocks for you is really a barrier to mass adoption along with the technological problems of having to buy, having to set up a wallet and things like that. Once we see the ability to onboard with Gmail, buying with credit card, and once we see concrete ways to participate after owning an NFT, I think we will see a huge uptake.

21:59

Nadja

I first want to just really bring out this very important point you mentioned about it being a technology because I think it's so easy if people look at different use cases and different utilities to forget what it actually is. It really is just a technology. Anything that can be built on top of a technology, anything that technology is capable of housing will be created on top of it. The number one point that I keep on coming back to whenever I speak to someone is if you are looking at NFTs as profile pictures or monkeys and a digital art, you have a very limited idea of the technology, which of course is what the media has been writing about. My question then is do you think it's even necessary for most people to even know the term NFT? Because if I think about social media, let's use social media as an example.

23:02

Nadja

24:17

Nadja

I mean, I know it's a much nuanced question because you can definitely argue on both sides, but do you have a general idea of where you see things as being at the moment?

24:32

David

Yeah, actually I personally feel quite strongly about this and I actually see the culture and the terminology as actually very exclusionary. NFTs, I think we need to separate NFTs as a technology versus NFTs as a culture. I mean, NFTs as a technology in very high level terms is really this idea of some digital asset or a unique string of numbers and letters representing some underlying asset on a decentralized and public computer network. Right. Very dry. NFT as a culture is this weird exclusionary language that the word crypto bros love to use. When you go on Twitter and you're in the space, you see people saying things like, GM, we're all going to make it. It's on the backdrop of perpetuating memes and quick and easy financial gain. For those who are outside of the space, it's seen as scammy or as kind of douchey bro culture is what I see, especially in the NFT space.

25:42

David

I think that this is quite exclusionary. We live in this echo chamber where someone who I spoke to the other day, I think phrased it perfectly. Going to Web3 or NFT events is really like going to a high school reunion where it's a bunch of people self-affirming and hyping each other up in that same space. Outside of the web3 or the NFT echo chamber, most people are skeptical, see it as a scam or simply just do not care. I think that one of the key things to mass adoption is really removing that language and we wouldn't even be calling them NFTs anymore, it would simply just be some digital token or just this thing that you own. If you're a fan of Rihanna recently in conjunction with I forget the name of the company, but released an NFT, so it'll be things like are you a part of the Rihanna fan club or do you own a Rihanna pass?

26:42

David

I think we should and I hope that we do trend away from this terminology and very exclusionary culture of memes and financial gain to more just talking about digital memberships and just belonging to various communities.

27:00

Nadja

Yeah, I mean, I 100% agree with you. I always feel, as someone who hosts the show, for example, it's such a tricky space to navigate because people that you really would like to listen to the show are not the ones that would listen to it because of the terms being used. At the same time, you need to use the terms because you are talking about something quite specific. It's a very strange time in to be in this industry because it's so much in flux. At the same time, I mean, it's an amazing time because I remember again, the early commercial Internet. It was not the same because this is far more Wild West, because we have funding here. That the lack of regulations here make things take on a completely different meaning than it did in the Internet era, where things were still very tightly controlled and very regulated.

27:59

Nadja

In terms of what you are seeing with Webmint, do you think that obviously big brands are always those who lead the way in any kind of innovation? I think we've seen quite a bit of experimentation so far. Like the leading brands for sure have dipped the toe and very often you could see that it wasn't perhaps even something that a large budget was attributed to. I mean, they had someone in the company quickly test drive this and to see how it works. The proof of concept, I don't think has always been as spectacular as we think that brands would approach this kind of thing with. For a lot of them it was just let's see where this goes, we'll experiment and see if there's anything to it. Do you feel like now, and I'm really wanting to know, especially from the perspective of Webmint and kind of who you are dealing with on a daily basis, do you find that brands other than the big brands are starting to become interested and why are they becoming interested?

29:07

Nadja

What is the thing that is captivating their attention and wanting them to kind of pursue more of this?

29:18

David

Yeah, that's a great question. I think, firstly, big brands, Nike, Starbucks, Gucci, they have done very well with their web3 strategy, whether it's accidental, experimental or not, the fact is they've done very well, I mean, the beauty of the blockchain is all transactions are public. You can easily see that Nike has made under $200 million from their web3 strategy. The beautiful thing about it is that they have done a lot of the marketing for us. They've shown that brands can, when done well, they can benefit from this kind of technology. Of course, the majority of brands do not have $100 million in revenue to just randomly experiment. Also a lot of brands don't have this dedicated research team where they have a head of metaverse like Nike does, or a head of web3 that is able to research and give direction. I think a lot of the conversations that we have is how you can use NFTs in a low cost or low risk way that adds to metrics that you're already used to.

30:37

David

Things that brands look at top line revenue, community or reach, social reach, and customer lifetime value. These are some of the things that we like to talk about. So, for example, for brands, they know that it's significantly cheaper to retain a customer than to attract new customers. I think Starbucks understands that as well. One of the great things that Starbucks honestly does is it offers more experiences for its existing customers and therefore reinforcing brand loyalty and customer retention. We do talk to brands, we talk about how you're able to use NFTs to create more multimedia, multiplatform digital experiences, to have more touch points with your customers other than just them coming into your store or visiting your website, but them being engaged with your brand all the time. That's one thing we talk about. The other is obviously the ability to create additional revenue streams.

31:41

David

I think that one is what is pervasive in the culture at the moment. The other one, I think, in terms of reach, is we talk about how NFTs can help you reach a new, younger and more digital audience. One way we try to highlight this is by looking at social followings of brands in their web2 stage and web3 stage. So, for example, Porsche released an NFT. It didn't do that great, in my opinion. If you look at their social following between Porsche the luxury car brand and Porsche the web3 brand, there's only about a 9% overlap between these two followings. That says that by entering the space, you're able to reach just a market that your traditional products and services may not reach. In saying all of that, we do face like collectively this uphill battle in educating brands on the benefits that NFT can bring them in real terms.

32:45

David

Beyond just talking about community exclusivity and loyalty, but really saying by doing this, you're able to boost your top line. Revenue by this much you're able to do X, Y and Z. And these are some of the conversations.

32:58

Nadja

That we're trying to I mean, I think it's so important to meet brands where they are and speak the language that they do. I remember in my early career when I was convincing businesses to have websites. I mean, it was such a strange position to be in because look at the way things have gone. Convincing a business to have a social media account or a website, it's unthinkable now, but there was a time when they completely couldn't see the utility of it. Like, why would I spend money? This is not something that's going to give me any return on investment. I want to ask you mentioned about reaching a different audience. Now, I find this an extremely fascinating topic because brands talk about kind of, let's say Gen Z and younger than Gen Z as this alpha holy grail that they are all kind of ramming up to getting.

33:55

Nadja

Do you find in terms of the Web3 community as it stands right now, how much of that is actually the target audience that they I mean, if they are talking about the next generation, how much of the next generation is actually in Web3 interest? Not necessarily involvement, but in terms of interest? Because that's something I find quite fascinating. My son is turning 17 and he has zero interest in web3 for him, he's a gamer and I mean, he's in his little underground culture and Web3 doesn't penetrate anywhere close. I'm finding it really interesting because we're seeing brand collaborations with Roblox and with Minecraft and with all of these Fortnite. At the same time, are brands really able to capture the next generation through Web3? Or is this probably a slightly older generation that is now becoming more accessible in a way that maybe were bored?

34:57

Nadja

I mean, if before you were used to being spoken to via email and via social media, Facebook page and we're all over that. Where do you see this generational opportunity? Where are the opportunities right now?

35:15

David

Yeah, I think just in terms of the statistics, I forget the number. I'm terrible with numbers, which is why I became a lawyer. I think that 30% of people who are interested in NFTs blockchain are in that 25 to 35 group category, give or take. I do think that is where the interest lies with the example of your son who's 17, who's not interested in NFTs. The thing is, even if he's not interested, he is on the internet all the time. Whereas my mum, who is also not interested in NFTs, she's 56 and she goes on the internet for an hour a day. The thing is, even if your son is not interested right now, he is probably far more exposed to NFTs on a daily basis than people outside of that millennial age group. So I think the opportunities are there. As we discussed before, once we reach a stage where it's not mint your NFT now, but simply acquire digital membership in Fortnite, then he's really going to be more interested because he's not even thinking about NFTs.

36:27

David

He's just thinking, this is a great game, this is a cool community, let me get involved. I think it's all about messaging and how you package what you're selling. In terms of the reach, it's very much the Internet generation because not even just NFTs, but the social messaging, advertising, it's all done over the Internet these days. We're reaching a point, especially as these metaverses become more sophisticated. We're reaching a point where more and more of our lives are integrated on the Internet and we as vain human beings. We're looking for more ways to flex and to express our personalities through digital forms. NFTs, whether we're going to call them NFTs in the future, we'll be able to offer that.

37:22

Nadja

So I still feel that the community has a point to make because I feel like a lot of conversation is still around the generational aspect. Okay, you're a millennial, you're this, and you’re that. Of course, it's always helpful frameworks to have, but at the same time, we need to realize that as a species, we are evolving. Before our call, I had an in person meeting with someone, which is quite rare in these days to have an in person meeting with people. It's always a nice experience when you can actually connect human to human, face to face, instead of zoom to zoom. We’re having exactly this discussion because this person's from Russia, I mean, at the moment, Russia is a much contested topic, so even being Russian is much contested. We’re talking about but as part of the digital Internet generation, these country borders and affiliations almost becoming, to an extent, optional. I mean, of course, it's always the legalities that you need to deal with in terms of traveling and where you are.

38:24

Nadja

We are a digital nation, global digital nation state. I love the example you used about my son versus your mother, because for sure, neither one has any interest, but one has a very different trajectory going forward than the other one, because to be immersed in digital culture means whatever digital culture is going to bring, you will become part of it. I think that is really the kernel of the conversation for me, is this is just an evolution. Now the question is, who is going to be driving this evolution? We are in a capitalist society, so we know more or less how things usually work. Again, coming back to what we said earlier about the Purists, and there's the philosophy and the tenets around this, which personally, I'm very much aligned with decentralized thinking from a political point of view, but at the same time, we live in a society where brands rule the world.

39:37

Nadja

What do you think is happening right now in terms of brand adoption? Do you think that it's going to shape the space in a way that almost is intended? Or do you think there's still room to see, completely unintentional, but different directions for things to go into? How counterculture is this going to end up being or is this just the start of the new mainstream?

40:09

David

I think it's a bit of everything, I think, to answer this. I think I can talk about who I think is going to drive the NFT culture, but that's very separate to Web3 culture, because then we've got things like DeFi, which will probably be driven by banks. Or when we're waiting for the next bank to collapse, but talking specifically about NFTs and just buying them, showing them off and things like that. I personally think it's really going to be brands, but I don't mean brands in the sense of your Nikes or Starbucks, but really brands as influencers or people or entities that have a very that have a following. I mean, if we look at, for example, the impact the NBA had on sneakers and on culture, on hip hop culture, once basketball players started wearing certain types of clothes or certain types of shoes, everyone really got into it.

41:10

David

Which is why now you see the Jordan brand being worth billions of dollars. When Kanye West made a shoe or made multiple shoes, people were camping outside the shops to get their hands on these shoes because these are cultural icons that people respect, love, and follow perpetuating new ideas. I personally think when it comes to NFTs, once we see certain brands or certain people really starting to push them and utility that they offer, we will see a huge influx because we as humans, we kind of just follow the hype, right? We're all kind of mini hype beasts, especially the young generation, and we can't help but want to be popular, so we will do what all the cool kids do. I personally think, I like to think that I'm above all of that, but I'm certainly a victim of it as well. I personally didn't get into NFTs specifically because I saw this as a way of unlocking, ownership and co-creation.

42:15

David

I really got into it just because everyone was talking about it and it was like the hot thing to do. That is really perpetuated or permeated by culture. I really do think that it will be a brand. Yuga Labs, for example, they are trying to be the Disney of Web3 and everything they do seems to strike gold. I would almost say that it's not because they're doing anything innovative, but it's because they have already inserted themselves into the zeitgeist of web3 of Cool culture. It wouldn't even matter what they did, people would just buy into it because of the reputation and the omnipresent culture that they kind of have cultivated.

43:06

David

Whether or not that was by accident, I do think a lot of it was pure coincidence because if you think about followers being a social currency and we have, I mean, the rise of the influencer economy, probably if you look throughout history, it's clear that it would have ended up here. It's just that technology is what facilitated it to make it possible and scalable. I mean, we are the species that we follow a leader. This has been traditionally religion used to be that you have the religious leaders and you have God on earth, so to speak, and whatever the affiliation of the religion is. There are these leaders that everyone listens to and I mean, today we have influences in the same way, like celebrity culture. When I was young, influences were not a thing, but celebrity culture for sure was a thing. It's interesting now to see how technology, and especially NFTs, are changing the conversation in the sense that the social capital I mean, having followers as your social capital is becoming more and more important with I mean, it's almost as if the window of huge opportunities are already closing .

44:28

Nadja

Because if you are an influencer or a creator in the web2 space, the market is saturated. It's quite saturated. It's difficult to get a voice. It's difficult, especially with web2 algorithms, different social media platforms. It's not for us as creators, it's against us. You want to reach as many people as possible, but at the same time the algorithms have their own narratives and prerogatives. How do you see that NFT can complete? Because this is a question that I am wrestling with, especially as I write my book, is I see the huge opportunities that Web3 technologies in general and NFTs especially, have for content creators who are existing content creators. Know what it takes to build a community and know how difficult it is to create them, to retain them, to keep them engaged. Now there's this new technology and how do content creators who are savvy enough to try something new, but at the same time their audience might not be savvy enough to try something new.

45:44

Nadja

This is something that I'm seeing at the moment and I'm trying to make sense of for myself, is what is this process going to look like if you are ready enough to take the next step and you want to bring people with you, but are they ready enough? Yeah, that's really the question for me.

46:07

David

Yeah, that's a good question. I think that right now we are limited by technology, right? If you are an artist, a DJ and you do have a healthy following, at the end of the day, you're not going to be able to convince your followers to download MetaMask, set up a seed phrase, go on to Pancake swap and buy cryptocurrency. I think we're very close, and certainly at Webmint we're very close to building tools that allow you to just seamlessly purchase NFTs. I think once we have that technology in place and it's a seamless interaction, I really see the only barrier to artists and creators entering to the space is just simply marketing. It has nothing to do with the technology at that point, but it's simply about convincing your followers to simply purchase a piece of your work in a different way, right? Like instead of going on to your Etsy store or your Shopify store, it's to go onto your Web3 integrated sales page.

47:25

David

You can call it anything you want. I do think that we are now more acutely aware of how exploitative the Web2 industry is, especially for creators. I mean, Spotify takes, I think, 30% of your streams. OnlyFans was huge because it offered creators autonomy and agency to monetize their work. At the same time, OnlyFans is taking 20% of anything that you produce. Through streaming culture, I think we are conditioned to believe that art should be free because I pay $9 a month and I can listen to all the songs I want. We don't realize that when a movie, for example, licenses a song, they are paying hundreds of thousands, if not millions, for the rights. We're just conditioned to believe that these things should be free when they're really not. I think that we are becoming more aware of that and we are wanting to align ourselves or more publicly show our support for fellow artists.

48:40

David

There are specific artists that I really like, that I want to support in a way that doesn't require intervention from Spotify or Warner Bros, Music. I think that NFTs allow for that because I am directly paying the artists. The benefit for me now is that not only do I own a piece of the art similar to when everyone used to buy albums, which was a very special experience back in the day, I am now able to identify on the Internet, which is my main medium of communication. Other people who also share the same passion and love for their artists as I do, through Token gated communities, through social media that's connected tokenization, and even through Twitter. Twitter now allows you to upload your verified NFT as your profile picture. Basically, through this co creation model, it becomes one of the most powerful global affiliate programs that can exist.

49:42

David

To circle back to the original question, once we do have these tools where it becomes really easy, I don't think it's about convincing the community that they need to adopt new technology, but it's really just convincing them that there's a new way to show support.

50:01

Nadja

I'm even seeing it. I'm very happy to experiment with any kind of technology whatsoever. The issue always faces outside of my professional circle. I'm alone, my social circle, if they're not part of the industry, they're not nearly as experimental as I am. The question is always kind of how to integrate this seamlessly into my own life. I'm seeing this as a writer because I'm now uncovering the possibilities that NFTs have for beta readers. For example, buy my NFT. I mean, I don't have an NFT and this is actually something that I'm thinking of. One of the use cases for my book is, for example, I'm a single mother traveling, I'm dating. At the same time, I want to be able to talk about it. I talked to some friends about it, but at the same time it's not something I don't want to build a brand around it, but I have an outlet and I want to talk to more people, but I at the same time want it to be closed and contained.

51:09

Nadja

I don't want to start a newsletter and anyone can find it. If I have an NFT collection focusing specifically on this, who knows where the work is going to end up going. If you are a follower of the topic or you are interested in the way I talk about things, you can be part of that community. I really see the utility of it in everyday lives at a level where for sure, it's not obvious yet because we are not even seeing big brands integrate this. I'm very hopeful for a future way because I love the example you use about OnlyFans, because I think OnlyFans really awakened in a lot of people the appetite for creation. I mean, OnlyFans is brilliant in the sense like you really don't need much, you don't need to make fancy PowerPoint presentations and know what's popular on, I don't know, Instagram real culture.

52:05

Nadja

At the moment, OnlyFans is really whoever you are, there's a market for people like you. That message is so incredibly powerful because I think in terms of the way that society is today, I mean, everyone has something to say, but the problem is that because everyone has something to say and it's very easy to say it, no one listens to anybody. And I'm really excited about because I always feel in a world of globalization, where the world has never been smaller, but it's becoming very important to I want to use the word token gate, but as a metaphysical description, because we are finding ourselves in it again. If I look at my son, he doesn't use social media at all. So for me that's almost unthinkable. He's on discord and that's it. And he's not even in service. I mean, he is in service, but he's got his circle of friends.

53:04

Nadja

It's not easy to gain entry to the circle of friends. Typical, as you say, the high school mentality. I feel it's very important in our modern day culture for people to find global alignment with small groups of people. Facebook in the early days, I think was quite a lot of this. I mean, if you remember the golden era of Facebook groups and if you are part of this group, then you found your tribe around the world. Now the question is, Facebook is no longer that. So why is that so? Do you think that NFTs are answers here? That it will be able to unite people across multiple social media platforms? Like almost the social media platforms might become optional or superfluous, but the community is the kernel.

54:03

David

Absolutely. I think going back to OnlyFans, it really did highlight our appetite, not only our appetite for content creation, but our willingness to pay for it. I think that's the key thing. NFTs really do transform the model because typically with NFTs, you are encouraged to actually buy your way into a community. Right before that, the digital membership model was I will give you my email address, I'll give you some personal information about me, and then you'll give me access to all of these things. Because it was effectively free, my choices were a lot more free flowing. When you have a monetary assignment that really does draw a line in the sand of where your loyalties lie and where you belong. The difference is, within web2, whatever you're a part of, what newsletters or what subscriptions you have, what Spotify artists you listen to, they're all contained within that system.

55:07

David

On Spotify, I can see all of my other fellow Rihanna fans, but once I go out of Spotify and into Instagram, it's very hard to tell. Whereas NFTs, with the rise of web3 integrated applications APIs and whatnot, you're able to see what people's interests are and to what groups they belong across a variety of applications. I think the way I see NFTs, especially in the future, especially a collection of NFTs, is basically fragments of someone's identity and fragments of their personality. From this we can garner things like your interest, your values, your dislikes and things like that. In an increasingly digital age, it just makes it very easy to quickly know whether you align or you share the same interests with someone else. Because the reality is we are too busy to have the in depth conversations with everyone. If we want to create a group, like a Facebook group, but we want to make sure those who come in are genuine members and have genuine interest in the values that we hold.

56:15

David

NFTs is a great way to do that because it's not free. There needs to be some commercial buy in. Because it's really assigned, a wallet is unique to its holder. It's really something that is tied to you, not just within the confinement.

56:29

Nadja

It's very interesting if you think about it from a brand perspective right now you have brand insights gained and gleaned through web2 means which in some sense yes, could be considered accurate to an extent. I personally, if I look at, for example, as a consumer what is being targeted at me, I really don't feel like the powers that be in the web2 world really know or understand me. I don't resonate with being advertised and marketed to, which is very positive in the sense that it's easy to reject. On the other hand, from the perspective of a brand, that's really not what you want. You don't want people to just easily go and say no, you want the opposite response. What is fascinating is really if we talk at this level where you are able to look at the fragments of someone's digital existence because you and I have a common and a common interest here, but we don't know what other interests there are.

57:35

Nadja

Maybe there are no other common interests. Maybe this is the only place where you and I can find something to talk about or maybe this is but one. But how would we know? I love what you said about you cannot have in depth conversations with everyone. I would love to, I mean, I would love to live in a world where this is all I do all day but unfortunately there's not enough time and not enough energy and there's too many people and not enough of the resources. It is a very easy snapshot and in a sense I almost feel like it's a more holistic snapshot because if you look at the way that user personas like brand personas are typified and very almost a strict stereotypical approach. Whereas with NFTs, because people especially as it starts integrating more into society, you are going to end up seeing people with vastly different interests and you'll even be able to find commonalities with someone without having to say a word just based on oh, but I might not even be part of the same NFT communities.

58:45

Nadja

I see your interest, and therefore so do you think that it has I know we're running out of time, so I'm going to wrap it up here. Do you think that it has wider social implications for how people communicate in general? For instance, are we going to get to a point where it's almost now we are googling people to know more about them? Do you think there'll come a point where we look at what NFT they own or kind of as much a part of their digital identity and to see this 360 view of who they represent themselves to be?

59:30

David

Absolutely. I think there is a downside that I want to highlight, which is that we may start making assumptions on very superficial things. I look into your wallet. I see that you like clothes, certain artists, and then I will assume that is all of you humans are complex and can't really be labeled. I do think that it will increase the efficiency of building an identity. I think more importantly, I think what it will do is it will reverse the ownership model where I, as the consumer, am in control of the parts of my identity that I want to show. I can choose when to give that away and when to hold it for myself. One thing that really made the Internet very prevalent and made targeted adverts for Google and Facebook such a profitable business model was because of cookies.

Nadja

Right.

David

This idea that we're leaving little crumbs of our activity on the Internet that allow these brands to really build a profile of us, and that was how targeted ads worked. Now we're entering this phase where especially where I live in Europe, targeted ads, third party cookies are slowly being outlawed and there's this greater demand for agency, the right to be deleted or the right to be forgotten. Apple with their app that allows you to turn off tracking. What we see more and more, especially in the media industry, is this drive for first party information. Like content, gating pieces of content in exchange for information. You tell me your interest, your name, your email address, and I'll unlock this article for you. I think that NFTs will be an extension of that. If you think about it, NFTs are basically the perfect cookie. It is my online identity, my interests, and the things that I genuinely value all stored in one place.

David

I think what we're going to see is a lot more voluntary exchange where if I give you access to my wallet, you will give me the relevant information that I want as opposed to this involuntary model that we do see with ads and cookies. I think that's going to be the big change where because we are able to curate our wallets if I don't want a certain brand or if I don't want you to know that I like Taylor Swift, which I love Taylor Swift, but I probably don't want people to know that I can, I guess, theoretically, remove that or transfer that elsewhere. Whereas if I do want to advertise that, I do like Taylor Swift and I want to connect with everyone else that does through NFTs. There's multiple ways to do that. I think the key factor is I am now in control of who knows that, as opposed to through my mostly unconscious Internet activity.

Nadja

But I think that's such an important point because I'm also based in Europe.

Nadja

It always strikes me having options in terms of data privacy in Europe that you don't have anywhere else. It forces you to become, I mean, I'm already conscious and mindful of it, but for the average person, the stark contrast between being anywhere else and you're just being trapped and you have no idea what's happening to you. You enter this region and suddenly there's options and I mean, who knows what to click and most people probably just click accept all anyway, but at least there's options. I think this is something that I really see in terms of different pockets of readiness, because you have aspects of society where people are already aware that, hey, I can say no, but then this is very regulatory in the sense that if you're in Europe, it has to be enforced. It's not optional, whereas in other parts of the world it's not.

Nadja

People don't have to think about it. This really helps you to understand the possibilities going forward because as people become more conscious the thing is we are almost skipping over the need for other countries to have the same measures that the European union does in the sense that if you are with Web3, especially as it becomes more seamless to use, you have those options innately available to you, whether you're aligned with it or not. I remember often having this conversation with people on Facebook, like friends and family that use Facebook and their privacy settings. Like not understanding that they can actually change the privacy settings and sharing things that probably, if they stop to think about it, they wouldn't want to share with the entire world, but not knowing that it's possible to maybe change those options. I think what we are seeing is the options are increasing, which is a really fascinating and exciting time to be in where options are becoming like there's more of a collection of options than before.

Nadja

Final question, because I know now we are really over the time. You have a fascinating history in the sense that you came into the space, legally speaking, and from a more professional business standpoint than the average person who heard about it on the street and was like, AHA, this is my way to make money. I lost a lot, or I gained a lot, and who knows how? As someone who has had this journey into Web3, how do you feel that going forward? Do you feel this is the way that most people should be on boarded, so to speak, that it should be more of a brand experience as opposed to exploring it in the Wild West? That I certainly did. I wasn't led here by a brand and that's meant that I saw things differently than if it was my stocks experience that got me.

Nadja

With your background, what do you think is the best way for most people to enter the space through the brand experience?

David

David

In the NFT space specifically, I do think that community and belonging is the way not only to bring people in, but to get them to stay when everyone's turning their back on NFTs. Because one thing that I found quite interesting is, as you mentioned at the start of this episode, my team, we did launch a NFT project. It had in its Heyday about 350,000 followers organically. Obviously a lot of that community had left. We built a discord server. A lot of the community had left once the floor price started sinking. What we found, because we engaged with analytics company and what we found was that even though the Discord activity had decreased significantly, the per user activity had increased. What that meant was that once all the noise disappeared, all of the hardcore believers were the ones who were left to stay and they were able to connect with each other and freely communicate and feel a sense of belonging in the community.

David

Now all the noise was gone where people were just yelling GM at each other every 3 seconds and those were the people who stayed. Sure, there is financial motivation there, but those are the people who really stayed because they identified with the values of the project, with the community and with the utility that it offered. I think, yeah, the way for people to come in and more importantly, for the way for them to stay in the space is really about with NFT specifically, it's really about community identifying with the community, alignment with the values and just the sense of belonging.

Nadja

That is a beautiful way to close off biological conversation because I think at the end of today it doesn't matter what industry you're in, it doesn't matter what section of society you're involved with, but ultimately it is about community and we use it as a buzzword. I mean, really it's about human to human connection and the more that this can be fostered and facilitated, especially in the digital world where we don't have the face to face, but we still want to feel. We want to feel understood and seen in the same way that we used to feel when were in person. So, yeah, I love that summary because I think it really encapsulates a lot of what Web Three and NFTs are all about. Any closing words before we end today's? Lovely conversation. Also please let us know where would be the best place to follow you, where to follow Webmint, kind of how to get involved.

David

Yeah, I think I've said a lot today, so the only closing thought I have is if you're thinking about getting into NFT, into buying an NFT, I would urge you to think about the purpose behind the NFT beyond just the ability to make money in terms of following socially. Webmint replaced the E with a three. If you Google us, we should be the first link that comes up. If not, I'll need to rework the SEO, but I think that's the best way to keep in touch. We build software for not just mainly for brands, but for any kind of Web3 projects or anyone looking to dip their toes.

Nadja

Where are you personally the most?

David

Please reach out to us, join our Discord and we'd be more than happy to help you out. Oh, me personally on discord it's at Alice Australia. Also, just to put a caveat on that, I'm called Alice Australia not because I'm catfishing or pretending to be a female online, but my sister's name is Alice. She lives in Australia. During COVID the best way for us to connect Australia was through Discord.

Nadja

I use Discord to communicate with my son. So I know exactly what you mean. David, it has been an absolute pleasure talking to you today. I think that we covered so much ground in terms of really just different aspects of the space and the thinking behind it. Really looking forward to distilling some of what we spoke about in shorter clips so that it's easily digestible by people because I think there was so much wisdom and so much richness here. Yeah, and thank you so much for just spending this time with me today. Definitely my favorite part of my job is to be able to speak to people like you and just see how the space is evolving, like how society is evolving, really, which is what it comes down to. I thank you and it's been amazing to connect with you. I will definitely be following closely what you guys are doing with Webmint because I think this is the future of adoption.

Nadja

It's going to be exactly like we've been talking about, making it as easy for people to onboard as possible. If I need anything other than my Gmail account, probably I'm not going to be interested. If I need to pay with anything other than a credit card, probably I won't be interested. I think the work that you're doing is incredibly important in terms of getting us to just wherever we are going to end up going with this. We need the tools that we've been using and we need to continue using those tools. So, yeah, really excited for what you guys are going to do. Looking forward to following along. Thank you very much for just this amazing time today. I'm really happy that we got the chance to do this. Cheers David. Have a good day. Whereabouts are you based, by the way? You said you're in Europe.

Nadja

Which country are you in?

David

Likewise, anytime.

Nadja

I was in Germany last week. I'm in Croatia at the moment. Yeah, I just got back to Zagra a couple of days ago. I was in Paris for NFT Paris, and then from there I just traveled and visited Germany as well. We should have known, I could have met up with you there. Anyway, I'm happy that were able to do it even remotely, as all things happen nowadays. Cheers, David.

David

Bye. Bye.