Drug addiction-related books are presented and discussed. We talk about the impact of each title on our understanding of addiction and our growth as human beings.

#addictionbooks #drugaddictionbooks #addictionliterature #recoverybooks

Corey's books:

Embers: One Ojibway’s Meditations by Richard Wagamese

The Whole Brain Child by Daniel Siegel M.D. and Tina Payne Bryson PhD

Complex PTSD: From Surviving to Thriving. A guide and Map for recovering from Childhood Trauma by Pete Walker

Nathan's books:

The Perennial Philosophy by Aldous Huxley

Unbroken Brain: A Revolutionary New Way of Understanding Addiction by Maia Szalavitz

Addiction: A Disorder of Choice by Gene M. Heyman

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Welcome everybody to a recovery machine.

We're back after the break and somewhere in between Christmas and New Year's,

we're both feeling a little slower than usual here, probably from tons

and tons of sugar, I would imagine.

, that's what it is.

sugar and no exercise.

But, uh, we're gonna do our best here today.

So it's me, Nathan, again, and, uh, joined as always by cohost

Corey, how are you doing, Corey?

Good morning.

Good morning.

I'm doing well.

You know, to our credit, Nathan, this is one of our, the earliest sessions

we've ever, uh, met for, so we'll cut ourselves a little slack there.

10 o'clock Pacific time, so, um, but yeah, it's good to see you.

You had a good, uh, good, good Christmas break and, uh, yeah.

So what we're gonna do today, we're gonna do something a little bit different.

You know, we often talk about books that we're reading, talk about it with

each other, talk about it in meetings, um, and we thought it would be kind

of a fun idea to highlight a few of the books that we read and were impacted by

particularly early on in, in our recovery, um, that we think might be helpful,

that we think, you know, could, uh, our listeners, whether or not you are in the

position that we were in, that, that it could be beneficial to you in your life.

Um, we also, you know, when we were first talking about this, I, I wanted to

set the challenge for you that if we're gonna do this, that means no gabo mate.

That means no Maia Szalavitz, no Carl Hart, none of the sort of the

big names that you would expect.

Cuz I would, I would assume that a lot of our readers ha are, a lot of our

listeners have read some of those people.

Those people are wonderful.

But let's sort of see what else we can, we can dig up.

Okay.

I forgot that we were talking, uh, about, uh, leaving out those ones.

Uh, and I, I have Did you . That's okay.

I have, uh, I have one that I am currently reading, actually suggested by

our friend Peter over in, uh, Ontario.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

And, uh, it was a great suggestion.

It's brand new hot off the press.

Um, and, uh, I could discuss that one instead.

Okay.

If you're

sure then, uh, then yeah, let's go for it.

Yeah, I, well, I think I'll, I'll have to at least mention how this

works as far as, uh, I've got it in kind of a impact order here, but, uh, okay.

I will, uh, adjust on the fly.

Okay.

So would you, uh, you, you can choose.

Do you wanna start or do you wanna pass

? Nathan: I, I could start, um, My, the,

a disorder of Choice, and that one is by Gene M Heyman it's one of the

first books that I ran into when, uh, I, I started to, most of my problems

occurred and began in, in 2011.

And then once I realized that, uh, a lot of the information I was getting

from professionals and, and, uh, experts seemed to be misleading or contradictory,

and, uh, it was then that I decided, well, let's learn as much as I can

about this, and maybe I can figure out some of my, my own way through it.

So, his book Addiction, it's a disorder of choice.

Uh, right here, that's the guy for the video people.

It's, I think it's about a dozen years old now, something like that.

But, The reason it was important for me is because it was the first time

that I saw somebody put together what appears to be bigger, uh, a bigger

collection of studies, studies that are higher powered, um, and less, less

suspect than the ones many of the, like, say the DSM five uses a certain

kind of standard to define addiction.

And then it goes on to sort of back that standard up as far as, uh, its,

its ability or its power to diagnose individuals by using studies that

are mostly, if not all, taken from people who have been in treatment or

sought out, treat them themselves.

So they, that right there is actually the sticking point because they

use that data and then extrapolate from that to the whole population.

And I don't believe that that was, I don't think it was meant

as a, uh, to obfuscate the facts.

I just, I, I don't think the data was available at the time that,

uh, even during the, the last, the latest version of the DSM five.

Um, I could be wrong about that.

But regardless, what I found in this book was that this idea of, uh,

powerlessness where, you know, you go to, when I went to treatment, it

was, it was, there were several things that I had, uh, uh, trouble with.

But one of them was the fact that I was being told that I had

no power over this situation.

Mm-hmm.

. And that just didn't make sense to me for multiple reasons why I was there.

At the same time, I knew there was a compuls, there was a, uh, compulsory

component to being addicted to drugs.

Something had happened in my ability to control the situation.

That was true.

, but at the same time I was still able to make decisions.

Yeah.

So I, I was in that gray area without any information and this was the first

time I came along and saw, oh wow, this guy is actually, he's, he's done

an excellent job of putting together.

He like, he, he points out four huge studies in particular that demonstrate

that by far the most, uh, likely scenario for somebody who is having trouble with

drugs or alcohol is that they remit, and it's not a remitting relapsing situation.

It's usually most people in their twenties and thirties, uh, that's when the,

the majority of these problems happen.

Mm-hmm.

and once they've, uh, addressed whatever motivating factor was

involved, or maybe they've moved on and they have new life responsibilities

that are putting pressure on them.

, they don't have the time to maybe party as much as before, whatever it may be.

They don't stay in that same addictive behavior pattern.

They find a way out of it.

Mm-hmm.

and the vast, vast majority do it without treatment or any intervention at all.

And it's not even close.

It's, it's about 75% across the board if you want to take every, every

substance that people normally have problems with, uh, you know, going as

far as like, uh, alcohol, cannabis, and then up towards the harder drugs.

Mm-hmm.

. So yeah, that was the, that was the impact it had.

It o what it did is it, it made me believe that I wasn't completely

crazy and that maybe there was more to this than I was being told.

It's not a what, uh, what we had planned on doing here was, uh, reading a quote

after the introduction of the book in this one, it's, it's a pretty technical book.

There's not a lot in here that's, uh, gonna be nice pros for a quote.

So what I would recommend people do is even if they want to take a quick

look, uh, and just go over the, uh, graphs, that's what I would, uh,

I would point people towards that.

It's absolutely worth the read.

And if you haven't seen or aren't aware of how much of a disparity there is between

what mainstream medicine says about the condition of addiction and, and what

these bigger, more representative studies that, uh, were done around 2000 to 2010

ish, um, if you're not aware of what they're saying, I would highly recommend

that you, you check this book out.

So it's addiction, a disorder of choice.

It's not a long read, but it's a bit of a slow read because, uh, yeah,

depending on your ability to kinda sort through trials and studies.

But, uh, yeah, an excellent book and I think that.

. If you look at most of the authors after Gene M Heyman they will have him listed

as a, uh, a reference in their titles.

So that's, uh, that's the first one I wanted to mention.

I wanted to ask you anything, you, me, I mean, you mentioned that book in,

I think the, your introductory episode or maybe even my introductory episode.

It was in, within the first two or three episodes of our, of our podcast.

You, you mentioned that book.

At what point were you, had you already been to inpatient treatment

and did you read that book after,

after the fact?

It was after, yeah.

Yeah, because, uh, it was the, when I came outta treatment, I was pretty

disorientated and I, I, I needed to know if, you know, if what they were saying was

true in treatment, then my entire kind.

Like, I had to make large scale adjustments to many kind of ways that

I had viewed the situation before.

Mm-hmm.

and I needed to make large scale adjustments anyway, so it would've

been, I think it would've kicked my legs out from me a little harder

had I not been able to dig into this stuff and see that, oh, okay.

It's not, it's not that black and white at all.

It's quite subtle and many people are struggling to, you know, find a

definition, even a workable definition for a diagnoses of addiction.

So it gave me some hope is what it did.

Mm-hmm.

that conversation about powerlessness.

I mean, we could go on and on about that.

And it, and it, of course, the 12 step model is, is deeply rooted

in, in that notion of, of, of kind of admitting powerlessness.

But, and if, if people grapple with that and they, and it, and it works for

them, fair enough, but like, uh, Again, it's, it's such a vulnerable time.

And like you said, when you were in, in that inpatient treatment center,

without having read that book, without having kind of been validated

about, about what was going on with you or seek getting that clarity,

it's like you're, you're vulnerable.

You're looking for some answers.

And I think a lot of people would probably just accept that as face at face value

and Yeah.

Yeah.

And a lot did, but there were others there who had already kind of been down

the path and they could see that it was a lot of, it was kind of bullshit.

Right.

Or just answers that were, here's an easy answer for you.

And if you ask any questions, you're not, yeah.

You're not gonna get any further information.

In fact, you're gonna get, uh, shut down for relapse behavior.

Yeah.

So that was a, that was, I mean, maybe.

If the facilitators in that place had been a little more forthcoming or willing to

talk about why they thought that that was the, the case, and it may be the case for

them, that they felt entirely powerless.

And I believe that there is something to be said for people who have

problems with alcohol, particularly because it's the, the nature of it

is that it goes after your ability to make a judgment call immediately.

Yeah.

So I think it's, it, it does have an element of powerlessness to it that is

maybe a little greater than some of the other ones in a different kinda way.

If you under, you know, if you can follow that.

I do.

And in fact, one of the, my second book that I will talk about today very much

supports sort of the same conversation and like how, how the way we think

about an issue or, or a problem that we're having or an addiction directly

impacts our behavior around it and, and how we, how we face it, you know,

so our, our thinking and our language are our instrumental obviously.

Yeah, absolutely.

So what was your, uh, I think you're going in the same kind of, uh,

chronological or, or impact order as I am.

Yeah.

Chronological order for me too.

So, when, when I encountered each of these books, um, and the first book is

a, is, I don't wanna say it's simple, but it's, it's, um, it's not a sort of

a heavy science based statistical book.

It's, it's Embers by Richard Wagamese and Holy Smokes.

I mean, there's so much I can say about this book.

So, first of all, it was about, um, a month into, not even a month I

don't think, into being off work.

And I'm sitting at home and I've got, you know, nothing but time on

my hands and I'm just, you know, ringing my hands in uncertainty and

just really distressed and stressed.

And my, my cousin Jane shouted it to Jane from, uh, Ontario.

Um, Sent me this book in the mail.

And Richard Wagamese is a, a, was a, um, an indigenous Canadian author and poet.

Um, he wrote for the TV show, north of 60.

He wrote, uh, the book called Indian Horse, which then became a, a movie,

which is actually on Netflix, I think.

And he wrote these poetry books.

And what it did for me, and I, I'll read you one or two examples at that time

when my mind was so busy and so filled with uncertainty and so filled with

worry, and particularly at nighttime, I've talked about this, that for me,

nighttime when you know the lights are off and it's silent in my place,

that's the most difficult time for me.

Particularly.

It was the most difficult time, um, early on, and that's when my mind would race.

And I, I just, I could just get carried away.

And I hadn't learned all of the tools and ways to kind of get myself grounded.

So I really found being able to put my attention towards something.

Short and simple and like digestible that if I was feeling anxious

or feeling stressed, that would just ground me and center me.

That did a lot for me.

Like a, like a piece of music or a familiar song could, or like a, you

know, watching a certain show that kind of just like brings you back to zero.

But, but because Richard Wagony had lived experience, um, with addiction, with a

very difficult, challenging life, that's the perspective that he's speaking from

someone who's been through the mud mm-hmm.

And, and gained some, some peace.

Richard also, by the way, was from, lived in Kamloops,

British Columbia, so Oh crazy.

I'm a relatively local, local person for.

And, um, yeah, it was just really beautiful and it was stuff

that I could like kind of mull over and, and read and reread.

Um, a couple of these things I've read in my smart recovery meetings.

I think I read one of them in, uh, in our caduceus meeting once.

And yeah, so I'll, I'll read you one here.

And they're just, they're very, they're all very, very short and,

and extremely, extremely sweet.

And, uh, this book, embers has broken into little, little passages about

stillness, harmony, trust, reverence, persistence, gratitude, and joy,

which are

interesting values to sort of reflect upon.

So this one goes like this.

Watching morning break, I realized again that darkness doesn't

kill the light, it defines it.

I believe that now for years I didn't, I believe that it was my failures, mistakes,

misjudgments, shortcomings and wrongs.

But I'm not those things.

I am the light that shines from my faith, my courage, my willingness

to be vulnerable, and to be responsible and to be accountable.

Moments of darkness.

Only highlight that truth.

These days.

I'm moving beyond my shame.

I'm basking in the light of my own recovery and the brilliance

that comes from allowing myself to be seen as I am warts and all.

I'm not just those warts either.

I'm the frog who wears them gradually becoming the prince.

So that's that.

And I guess I'll ask you first, how does that, how does

that hit you?

Well, it's a pretty remarkable, uh, piece of writing there, just, uh,

for me personally, because he's, he's talking about vulnerability.

Uh, he is talking about faith.

Uh, these are things that, uh, those are two of my primary

tenants that the, especially the, the vulnerability one came later.

Mm-hmm.

. But it was, it was tied into.

Accepting the darkness and actually seeking it out sometimes.

Mm-hmm.

in, in some ways, and realizing that we don't just grow in the light.

Uh, in fact the biggest leaps sometimes are made in the darkness, and it, it

caused, I think of him reconciling this reality as a place that is

designed to facilitate struggle.

Mm-hmm.

. And I think that there's a way to embrace it that is hopefully not overwhelming

and doesn't end in, I mean, there is such a thing as struggling too hard, right?

If somebody ends their life because they're, they're trapped in the

darkness and they can't see their way out, obviously that's, you

know, you can get esoteric about it.

But for our purposes, I think that we would call that a, a tragedy.

. But, uh, from my experience, it's been, you know, there's

two ways to look at that.

And there's, if we try to take it as something that we're going to spend

a lot of time fighting against, as in, I don't want to be a bad person.

I don't want to think about the things that I did wrong.

I don't want to, I want to distance myself from the darker sides of myself

and only focus on the good and the, you know, the more noble aspects of me.

And, um, there's many traps in there.

And, uh, it, mm-hmm.

, it seems that, that he's kind of trying to articulate his growth in, in, in

that process and, and his increase in understanding and maybe seeing

himself as more of a whole and seeing the world as more of a, let's see, of

course it's more nuanced, but it's not as simple as just, you know, gritting

and grinding it your way through and trying to always do the right thing.

I think it's about staying open and seeing yourself as, uh, I mean, we're

all flawed beings, but that's the, that's kind of the point, you know?

Yeah.

And, and maybe that's what he was driving at there.

Yeah, I agree.

And in, for anyone who is, has experienced, um, starting out and

having to attend a meeting, like a, uh, any kind of support group, a recovery

support group, or a 12 step meeting or a grief support, anything like that,

it's terrifying those first few times.

And you think I'm gonna have to, you're hearing people tell their stories and

you think, oh my God, , I've gotta, like, how much do I have to tell here?

And, and at first, I think typically from my experience and what I've observed is

that people are, you know, tell a v very kind of guarded version of their story or

what they're comfortable with initially.

And then as they, as they get more comfortable, maybe they

share more and they open up and.

I think the really special thing about those communities can happen when, um,

when people look at their vulnerabilities, look at their, again, shortcomings that

he's, he's sort of redefining them as not being, he's not owned by his failures.

He's, he's growing out of them and, and remodeling and mm-hmm.

, uh, and when you can see that happening in a, in a community and when the

other members of the community are, are supporting the person who's,

who's being vulnerable in that, it's just, there's nothing like it

that I've ever experienced before.

And, um, that's where I think like everyone should be a, needs to

be a part of a community that's just such a basic human need and a

community that hears them and, and where they can be that vulnerable.

And I, I wish I, it didn't take me into sort of coming through

addiction and coming out the other side to, to learn that, but that's

the mo one of the most beautiful things that I've learned in this.

Yeah.

Yeah, I agree.

It's something that's, Completely missing from our mainstream kinda

way of living here in the west.

Yeah.

We, uh, it just, you know, it's the individualistic, uh, achievement style.

I don't need anybody to, to win kind of attitude and I don't know.

Yeah, we've lost it for quite a while, but when you see it working, like you

said, I mean, when you get a group that has gotten to that point where

everybody knows that everybody's on the, on the same page mm-hmm.

and there's, there's a level of openness there that probably not a lot of people

experience, you know, maybe Oh yeah.

If they're lucky, they would experience it with their spouse or

their best friend type of thing.

But other than that, and even those people might not understand if it's something

that's, you know, emotionally significant or you know, one of those experiences

that you have to go through to understand.

Yeah.

So, yeah.

Yeah, that's, uh, that's a great one, man.

I like it a little bit different.

Thank you.

What you got for number two?

Well, I'm, what I'm gonna do here is I'm just gonna give a, uh,

I'm gonna give a quick hat tip to Maya because we all know how I feel

about her and that, uh, you know,

I have a shrine and all that kind of stuff.

No, I don't have a shrine, but she's, uh, I don't have a shrine folks.

She's, uh, she's a genius is what she is.

Yeah.

She's a legitimate genius.

And unbroken brain may have saved my life, so I can't, and I don't know if that's,

I honestly don't know how dramatic I'm being there because I was, I was way into,

uh, I had, you know, gotten to a point where I was very isolated, very alone.

And, uh, when you get down into the darkness like that, , she

was her book on Broken Brain.

A revolutionary new way of understanding addiction was the one that, uh, and I've

talked about it many times, and I mm-hmm.

, I still smile thinking about the fact that we actually had her on the show.

Mm-hmm.

, what an amazing experience.

And so Grateful . It's just one of the coolest things ever.

But, um, yeah, I'll just read a, uh, uh, well, I'll say first that what

she did is she made me understand in a way that nobody else, she

put together a cohesive piece of writing that shows you definitively

what is going on in your brain.

Mm-hmm.

. And that's what I wanted to know.

It made sense.

It was backed up by science and it was just beautifully written.

If you haven't read that book and you're wondering what's going on with, uh,

you wanna see somebody who understands addiction on a deep level have said it

before, but you gotta read Unbroken Brain.

I'll read just a, a little bit here, please.

Fundamentally, addiction is a learning disorder.

There are three critical elements to it.

The behavior has a psychological purpose.

The specific learning pathways involved make it become nearly automatic

and compulsive, and it doesn't stop when it is no longer adaptive.

So she takes those three and goes wide open on them and backs 'em up.

And the, but that's the, the bones of it since the experience of having her on

and, and all everything we've done there.

And with that little piece there, is that, is that something that's evolving?

Is it something that, uh, you know, what's your thoughts on that, Corey?

Well, she's answering the question there that so many particularly

loved ones of someone with addiction ask, like, why can't they just stop?

And why a question that, why many people in, in active addiction asks themselves

like, We, I, we knew, we knew that it wasn't working for us, like in the, in

the large scheme of things, that it was no longer, uh, an effective adaptation.

It was for a period of time in terms of like debt, getting through that

acute stress or whatever it was, whatever was happening in our heads.

But then I could certainly see that like, this is no longer an effective

behavior for, for me to pursue, but like, why can't I change that?

So that's what she's exploring there and, and answering.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And, and it's, uh, . If you don't have that, that piece of understanding of

the puzzle, then I think what happens is you become, you're just, you don't have

a foundation on which to stand against many of these wild ideas that, that get

tossed around and backed up over the years without any, any science and ideas that

don't make a lot of sense intuitively.

You know, you think about it and you're like, well, , it's

not exactly like that, you know?

Mm-hmm.

, that's, that doesn't really define it for me.

Or there's more to it that's not being discussed.

How come we can't discuss it further?

You know?

And that's what she does.

Yep.

She, this is a, you know, uh, a brilliant mind that goes deep after

experiencing, you know, being chronically and compulsively addicted to cocaine

and, uh, heroin, and then mm-hmm.

you know, figures it all out in rapid , uh, a crazy fast period of time.

Uh, and then, uh, is able to, I mean, the amount of her volume,

her output of writing on the subject matter is staggering.

Mm-hmm.

, but, uh, yeah.

Amazing woman.

So that's, uh, that's my hot tip to her.

And yeah.

I'm sorry.

I, I don't, uh, we probably talked about not having the, the regular

books in there, but That's

okay.

Do you wanna do your, your another one too?

Yeah, I can.

Uh, I'll, I'll finish, I'll do my next one, and then I'm going to, I'll talk

briefly about the one I'm reading now.

Okay, cool.

Yeah, so we'll move it back to you, sir.

Okay.

So mine is a, another, another curve ball sort of, um, in that it's

not about addiction, it's not about recovery, but it is a about, about our

brains, and that's what we're ultimately what we're trying to answer here.

Uh, and it's, it's the Whole Brain Child by Dan Siegel and Tina Payne, Bryson,

Dan Siegel's, a very well known, um, psychologist and child psychologist,

and has written a number of really, sort of, um, instrumental parenting books.

And you're, you're gonna say, well, why, why are we talking

about a parenting book here?

Corey?

Well, I read this, um, fairly early on in recovery, and then my, one of my

counselors was, um, had recommended it to me as well, so, , I mean, in short,

the whole brain child, it's, it's, he's, he's talking about four children.

How they, you know, the pathway between right and left brain, um, is

underdeveloped in between lower and higher brain is, is underdeveloped.

So when a child gets into the state of, um, of emotional distress or stress,

they aren't able to regulate that.

And, uh, and they go from, you know, from the basement to the

upstairs , you know, rapidly.

And so the idea is that you, you sort of take them out of that environment, help

them to kind of recenter and to calm down before the, you know, the lesson is

taught or before the behavior changes.

Where it applied to me was Dan Siegel talks about the wheel of awareness.

And, and the uses the term mind site.

So if you imagine, uh, your awareness, all of the things in your life that you,

that you put your attention towards, your career, your family, being off

of work, your addictive behavior, your money, stress, your diet and exercise,

any of those things, grief, those are around the outside of the wheel.

And then on the inside of the wheel is your, is is sort of

your, your mind where you are.

It's the hub as he calls it.

And so if you're always pointing to your addictive behavior or your, how much

you hate your damn job and your boss and your anxiety or your symptoms of P

T S D or your symptoms of depression, that that in of course changes how

your, your mind, how your perspective on the middle, um, I is impacted.

And so that in fact we require a much more balanced wheel of perspective and, and

need to ensure that we are putting our attention onto things that also create

some balance and that create, give us a, a perspective of, of better health.

So, and this is where, you know, thinking about recovery, um, recovery burnout

is a common, a common term that I, I have heard, it's something that I felt

probably in the first two months where it was like, you have to go to, you

know, because you're in the monitoring agreement, you have to go to what

works out to be four meetings a week plus therapy, plus a rehab program.

For some people it's a, it's a lot like all of your attention is, is

on your addictive behavior and on your work stress and all that stuff.

Mm-hmm.

and it's, it's trying to get you healthier, but it's not creating a,

a particularly balanced perspective.

And it can be pretty dark and get kind of pretty, pretty gloomy.

And it's not necessarily all, it's not not looking at the total picture.

. And so for me it helped me to sort of see that, um, you know, we do, there's

the life balance wheel where you, where you can like see how much time

you're giving and how satisfied you are with your, with your job or with

your home or with your family life or your, your romantic life, whatever.

But this is just about sort of how much time being aware of how

much time and perspective you're giving to each of these things.

Yeah.

Well it's, it was a

really very helpful reminder for, for me.

And then I think it also really affirmed for me that like a kid

who's having a tantrum in the grocery store, sometimes you gotta

take them out of the grocery store.

Sometimes you gotta , you gotta take them outta the playground

and and move them aside.

And I think it affirmed for me that like taking myself outta that

environment was, was so necess.

And not because, not because my work or my employer insisted on it, but because that

was what was gonna allow me to recenter and reregulate and, and, um, and feel

better.

Yeah.

Yeah.

When you put it like that, it sounds, uh, almost ridiculous that that's

not the not the immediate solution.

Eh,

it it does.

It does.

And you know, there's also, I was trying to think of what part to read,

and I encourage everyone to look up, look up his wheel, wheel of awareness,

and there are diagrams online that, that, where you can find it and,

and look, look at it more closely.

But he also talks about distinguishing between feel and am and he's talking

about teaching this to children.

The difference between I am feeling sad versus I am sad.

Right.

And this comes back to a, as adults, there's, we have a lot to

learn about that, about like how our language impacts our being.

And if.

and we can catch ourself using that type of language a lot.

Where it's like, I am, I am an addict.

Right.

For example.

Yeah.

And, and what that, what that impact is.

Mm-hmm.

versus just the current state that we're in saying that you

I am, this creates like this

permanence and this It does.

Yeah.

And we've

seen sort of self-defining, self-fulfilling kind of

a thing.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

The science is there to back it up

too.

He, he's talking about, um, a child named Josh.

Josh is sort of the example in this chapter.

Josh's suffering was a result of being stuck on the rim of the

wheel of awareness rather than perceiving the world from his hub.

So the center and integrating his many, the many points of the his rim, he

directed all of his attention towards just a few particular rim points that created

an anxious and critical state of mind.

As a result, he lost touch with many of the other parts of the rim that

would help him experience a more peaceful and accepting state of mind.

This is what happens when kids aren't working from an integrated wheel.

Just like adults.

They can quickly become stuck on certain rim points or a few particular

aspects of their being, which often leads to rigidity or chaos.

It leaves them confusing the difference between feel and am.

When a child experiences a particular state of mind as a feeling of frustration

or loneliness, they may be tempted to define themselves based on that temporary

experience as opposed to understanding that simply how they are in that moment.

The danger is that a temporary state of mind can be perceived as a permanent part.

The state becomes seen as a trait that defines us and it goes on there.

So I think there's a lot for adults in general to learn about that,

but a lot of people in recovery to learn about that too, that we, we

kind of can take on this identity based on the language that we use.

That is a.

A brilliant, um, way to set the system up there.

Uh, as far as trying to, I, I, I mean, I, I don't know what kids are capable

of as far as making that connection, because many adults are, are unable to,

you know, get to that point where they can see that there's something outside

of them that's, that's happening and then reduce it down to a, a, a sort of core

that is being affected by these things due to, uh, you know, I don't know.

Um, it's more of a management issue at its core, right?

Yeah.

And I, yeah, that's part of growing up.

But many, like, again, because we've lost our, I think it has to

do with community and our maybe.

Having a practice of meditation, a daily meditation would increase your

ability to be aware of, of the difference between what you are in the center or

the, the hub, I guess as he's saying, as opposed to out on the rim there.

Yeah.

It, it's also interesting because it speaks to the loss of awareness that

happens when we get in that dark place.

Mm-hmm.

. So if you were anxious or angry, and that's the, the last feeling that you

had as you retreated inwards towards that hub as the darkness, you could

kind of think of it as a flashlight against a wall and the beam is getting

narrower and narrower or like a bullseye.

Even where the darkness is, is creeping in kind of section by

section until you're just in your hub and because there's nothing else.

all your options, all your things that would balance you out, all your, uh,

points on the rim like he's saying there, that would be your, your normal kind of

anchors or way to climb back out of the darkness are now you're blinded to them.

Yeah.

And, uh, yeah, that's, uh, that's a very interesting tool.

I'm gonna have to look at that.

So two thoughts I had, I, I re recall what I was trying to say

a moment ago was that going back to the, the language of powerlessness

and to say, I am powerless.

Yeah.

It's brutal.

Right.

And it,

it really does sort of fulfill that state of being and,

um, and isn't particularly helpful.

I am, I feel when I am having an urge or a craving, I feel powerless.

Yeah.

But I am not powerless to me is a, a healthier way to, to say it.

Uh, and the other thought I had Nathan was when we are drug seeking or

when we are having a craving or, or.

Feeling anxious and looking for relief.

We tell ourselves in that moment that the, that the drug of

choice will take us out of it.

It'll take us to a different place.

But if you think about the wheel of awareness, to me, the, the drug

is right next to, uh, anxiety and trauma and, and all of these harmful,

scary, shitty feelings that I had.

So they were, they were intertwined.

So it's, it was not a different perspective that I was actually attaining.

I think I, I thought that it was a different part of the wheel, but for

me at least, they became so conjoined and so intertwined that, that I was

always pointed towards the same thing.

I was always pointed towards that, uh, stress and anxiety and, and,

and angst and dissatisfaction.

Yeah.

You turned, that's what we do.

I guess when we're, when we're in that state and you're using that drug

in a, not how that drug is supposed to be used, it causes a, it almost

makes a shadow effect where now you've retreated back into the darkness and

you're, you're oscillating between, uh, anxiety, depression, fear, whatever it

is, and that, and your drug of choice.

Mm-hmm.

, and you can see how that pattern would develop.

And then once you're locked in, you can't see your way out of it

because all your, all your other access points is, are blinded.

Right.

And that, yeah, you can see that play time and time again.

Yes.

It's also interesting because you can see how it's not to just the drug, right?

The drug can be taken out of the equation.

That's why you can have these different addictive behaviors.

It's the way, it's your relationship with that behavior pattern.

that sets up that kind of oscillation and then cuts off the rest of

your, your normal anchor points to whatever makes you feel good.

So it, I mean, it would explain why like, so many people can, can use

drugs like cocaine or, or even heroin recreationally, because they didn't

go into the relationship with those, that, with that kind of a dynamic.

Yeah.

Right.

They probably went into the relationship with, with all their,

they were in a healthy place.

They, you know, they, they experience whatever the drug is for, you know,

whatever positives it has to offer and then don't retreat back into the,

the middle and, and, and just sit there and wait for the drug again.

Yeah.

They just go back to their business.

Yeah.

You know, I, it's very interesting.

Yeah.

It, it's like, it's like to, to, to make a pop culture reference.

It's like, why did, , why did heroin kill Kurt Cobain and not Keith Richards?

Well, their, all of their life experience that led them up to being, you know,

rock and roll stars impacted that.

And the, the, the, the psychology, the psychological groundwork that was

laid before they got to that place impacted the relationship with drugs.

Keith Richards was, and still he, not that he's using drugs now, but he,

he was having the time of his life.

He was, he isn't , he, I don't, I don't think Keith is, he was having

the time of his life and Kurt Cobain was, was medicating for his pain.

He was, yeah.

Yeah.

And that, I mean, that's a, that's a very like, sort of

simple example of that, but Yeah.

But you, you're so true, so, right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

No, it's, it's interesting.

There's, there's a lot of thought, uh, thought experiments that could

be taken out of that for sure.

Yeah.

That's a really cool, uh, Real cool introduction there, man.

Cool.

So what else have you got here for

us?

Well, what I wanted to, uh, definitely present as something that people should

take a , it's not something that you're gonna take a quick look at, but the

perennial philosophy by Aldous Huxley is, I, I mean, I gotta say that it's

the most amazing book I've ever read.

I mean, that's, that's all there is to it.

I, I don't know how I'm going to find a book that's more amazing than that.

And I've, I, I mean, I've, I've went through the Bible with a fine-tooth comb,

uh, read it front to back and studied it.

Same with the Quran.

Um, there's lots more religious texts that, uh, Unical books and

stuff like that, and, Religious books are, are necessarily gonna

be your mo most earthshattering.

But what I'm saying is that in the grand scheme of everything, as far as what's

going on here, um, uh, having a spiritual foundation, a spiritual understanding

of, of the common threads between the different major religions in the world

and belief systems, things that stand the test of time, you know, going back

thousands of years, things that can be used as, uh, points of reference now

and wisdom that just is never going to go away in this reality because it, I

believe that a lot of the, the, the points that are, whatever you want to call it,

elucidated or, or, or made accessible by Huxley in this book, they're pieces that

you can take, read it maybe three, four or five times on different occasions.

And then on the s on, uh, the sixth or their seventh time, You

know, you're like, holy shit.

Okay, I, I understand.

And now I understand something, a, a thread of truth that is far beyond

anything that, uh, I've ever been able to, to gain from reading a book.

I mean, it's just, it's, it's a miraculous piece of work.

And, um, it's one of those things that you could just have laying there, open

it up anywhere, start reading, and I mean, it's gonna, you'll be thinking

about it for the rest of the day.

So, I'm gonna, I've got a, uh, a piece here that speaks towards, uh, my epiphany

with charity and, uh, my understanding of humility and, uh, and, uh, uh, tranquility

and disinterest, uh, with material possessions and desires of this world.

Yeah, so I'll read it here.

It's, I wa . I was gonna edit it down for you a little bit

cuz it's, uh, a little long.

But, uh, here it goes.

The distinguishing marks of charity are disinterestedness,

tranquility and humility.

But where there is disinterestedness, there is neither greed for

personal advantage nor fear for personal loss or punishment.

Where there is tranquility, there is neither craving nor aversion, but a

steady will to conform to the divine tao or logos on every level of existence.

And a steady awareness of the divine suchness and what should

be one's own relation to it.

Where there is humility, there is no sensor and no glorification of the

ego you just are, or any projected alter ego at the expense of others.

Who are recognized as having the same weaknesses and faults, but also the

same capacity for transcending them in the unit of knowledge of God as one has

oneself and God, there is obviously up for interpretation, but I feel that there's

a, they're talking about a certain flow.

Like I like that logos word in that it's, it speaks towards the

connectivity of all living beings.

Maybe everything that's, that exists in this reality and then kind of

gives you some accountability for, you know, treating people well

and understanding really why that, that matters on a grand scale.

But, uh, I know that was, that was super long and, uh, there's some

crazy, crazy words in there, but, uh, what are your thoughts, sir?

So is

he suggesting essentially that we are our own enemy and that if we can

get ourselves out of the way and get our psychology out of the way, that that is

where, that is, where the virtue lies?

Is that in essence what

he's saying?

That that is a huge part of it.

This is where like, uh, Buddhist and, uh, yeah, uh, well, Buddhists are, that's

probably the, the best example of that.

They speak of this complete ego death.

Same with, uh, people who've experienced, uh, I don't know if you, uh, how much, uh,

psychogenic like, uh, mushrooms and L s D and stuff like that you've experienced,

but I have been to that place where there is, I, I had an experience once

where I was stripped down to this, uh, I watched the layers of myself fall away,

uh, over a period of about eight hours.

It was a, uh, Ibogaine experience.

, and I don't think I'll maybe , maybe again, I'll find the courage to,

to, uh, to face that place again.

But I've never had an experience where it was so obvious what was going on, and that

you, when you could see those layers fall off and see all these different kind of

masks that you wear to, uh, the lies that you tell, the exaggerations, the nonsense,

all these things that you think matter.

Uh, you watched them fall away to the point where you think you're

gonna die because you think you need all of those little things

to, to continue in this world.

And it reduced me to this just pillar of, uh, it was like a just light,

I guess just a pillar of light.

And I felt that that pillar of light was connected to.

What they call in this book, the Divine Ground.

And this might, you know, I realize here that I'm starting to sound a

little bit out there for some people.

That's fine.

. . But what, what it seemed to me was happening there is if you picture, um,

say a, uh, a big piece of ground with icicles sticking up, that to me felt like

my connection with other living things.

I was one of those points of light that was embedded into that divine ground.

And the divine ground went on forever.

Mm-hmm.

. And that, that material, there I is.

During that experience, it was a representation of our nature here as

that individual form being connected to our, our nature everywhere here

and then somewhere else also that was actually generating that divine ground.

So it goes off in every direction.

And then at some point you realize that there's a, a dimension, uh, dimension

to it that you can feel is attached to it, but you can't really see it here

in the way that we think of seeing.

And, um, this speaks to that, I think.

And when you talk about mm-hmm.

, taking yourself outta the equation, I mean, it's, it's, it's perfect, you

know, when you, if you can remove all the nonsense and realize how connected

we all are to one another and to, to what feels like something else as well.

Like maybe something that was involved in the creation of this reality or maybe

some kind of a force, whatever this logos thing is, that's, uh, and I don't care.

I don't, uh, I don't need to know what that is.

That was the other lesson there.

. I'm just fine with it.

I'm fine that it, it's, it's given me an understanding that makes

me, it's given me the ability to, to act lovingly towards mm-hmm.

other people.

Mm-hmm.

not feel love, not feel like, uh, how come I don't feel love for other people?

It, that's not, that's not the only form of love.

In fact, it's one of the lower forms of love.

It's that ability to understand that you have the act, you have the ability

to act and cultivate love as a, uh, as an action towards other people.

Mm-hmm.

. And you, it's very hard to do that if you're holding on to all that, like

you said, getting in your own way with all that kind of extra stuff.

That's nonsense.

Mm-hmm.

, you know, it's okay.

We all do it, but to see it for what it is, I think gives you a much better

foundation to work with moving forward.

So when did you, I mean, you, you came to this most recent, um, the,

the epiphany episode that we did about charity, but when did you encounter

Huxley and how did you know, did the, the experience that you're speaking

of with Ibogaine, did that come before Huxley, or what's the chronology there?

I'm curious.

Well, if you go back to my original story

there in episode two mm-hmm.

, I think I mentioned, um, I was staying at my friend's place.

I was in a real bad spot and I, I probably referred to it as a dream or something.

Yeah.

And, um, , the reason I did that was because I wasn't clear on, I, I

hadn't made up my mind as to whether it would be beneficial for people

who are listening to this to know.

what really happened there, or if it was enough for people to just know

that I had some sort of an awakening or a, an epiphany and what, what

I had decided to do there, because I was basically in a quarter and I

was in the, in the hub of darkness.

Yeah.

And felt that I, I didn't have options.

And I reached out to somebody because I'd researched Igan as a, uh, a molecule.

It's, I believe it's an African, I think it's a, a tree in Africa.

And, um, they use it for religious ceremonies and stuff like that over there.

And one of the, one of the trademark things about it that I, I wasn't

told this until I experienced it, but there's a drum beat that goes on in

the background, the whole experience.

And at first I thought it was my, . And then when the thing starts going like

da, you're like, oh shit, I'm gonna die.

Right?

And then you realize, mm-hmm.

, no, you hurt.

Okay.

No, it's not that.

It's something else.

And there's no explanation for whatever that is.

And anybody out there, um, who has been to, there's Igan treatment centers in Yes.

South America.

Um, so people, some people have had amazing results with just basically

walking into these places while actively addicted to heroin, for example.

And then walking out and just giving up heroin.

And I, I didn't believe that that was possible.

I thought it was, you know, sounded pretty over the top.

But I, I tried this stuff and I understand now why I, I, I see what

the mechanism of action would be.

, if you wanna talk to the pharmacological terms mm-hmm.

. Um, and what it does is it just, , it takes away all the nonsense, so it

shows you so, and in a fashion of like, I mean, I've done l s d I'm fairly

experienced with, uh, like psilocybin and stuff like that, but this was a

different level of, of hallucination and it was a different, different level of

experience in that I, I couldn't say for sure whether I was going to live or die.

So there was a lot of fear there, and nobody had known

that I'd taken this stuff.

So I, you know, it's theoretically possible that I could have

died, but, and it was long, like it was eight to 12 hours.

I can't tell or remember for sure, but oh my God, it was long.

And, uh, when I came out of it, I just, I kind of snapped too and

I was like, holy leash, all this stuff I'm doing is so stupid.

what am I doing?

Mm-hmm.

, I'm not telling my parents about what's going on, but kind.

They love me.

Why wouldn't I do?

So I immediately went and called my parents and told

'em exactly what was going on.

Wow.

Wow.

Yeah.

And then I was, I looked at these things that I was doing and, and I, I was just

like, this is, it's got, this is enough.

This is enough.

It's gotta stop.

We gotta, these things that you think you care about are, yes,

they're real and they're meaningful and they have some application.

But on the grand scale, , it's ridiculous.

Yeah.

Ridiculous.

You're basically killing yourself for money.

That's what you're doing, Nathan.

Mm-hmm.

. Is that what you wanna do?

Do you think that's fair to your parents?

Do you think that's fair to the people that love you?

Come on, get your head outta your ass buddy.

Yeah.

Do something about this, right?

Yeah.

So that's what it did.

Was it just, it, it made it so that there was no more argument.

back and forth in my head, should I do this or should I do that?

It just was go do it.

Yeah.

So, wow.

You can, yeah, you could tag whatever kind of, uh, value you want to that.

And, um, I will say that it definitely, I'm glad that I had the experience.

You can't approach those type of, of whatever you wanna call 'em, plant

medicine, pharmacological agents.

I, I believe they are due a, a tremendous amount of respect.

I believe they're tools that could be used to, you know, in my situation, it

gave me, it got me outta that hubs and open it, put light everywhere, right?

Mm-hmm.

, it was just a flash of light far beyond the rim of what , you know,

so you could see out in every direction and you're looking and,

and you're exposed in the darkness.

and there's nothing left, but whatever that white core or

bright thing we are in the middle.

That's all that was left.

And then what's the argument, you know?

Mm-hmm.

, it's just stop being silly and, uh, you know, get some help.

Yeah.

I, I guess what I'm trying to say here is I, I don't necessarily endorse

that as a, I don't know what would happen for people or listeners.

You know, if you're, if you're thinking of doing something like

that, please, uh, do it with somebody who knows what they're doing and I

wouldn't recommend doing it alone.

Uh, same with Ayahuasca, d m t, any of these types of things.

And my God, don't go in there thinking that you're gonna have

some, it's not a recreational situation, and please don't take that.

I don't believe that's what it's for at all.

So yeah, if you go in there with a heavy ego, it will beat you down.

Yeah.

Tear that off.

And yeah, that is a hard experience to stomach.

So you

had that experience and then, Did in Reading Huxley, who's a pretty

notorious and famous for his, you know, being such a, um, sort of a founding

father of, of psychedelics and, and of, um, writing about it for sure.

And influenced, you know, Timothy Leary and Jim Morrison

and all of these, these people.

Ram Dass Ram Dass um, when you found Aldous Huxley, did you, did it kind

of click like, holy smokes, I've been there, I know what this guy's saying.

Oh, always.

Yes.

I've, I've always had that relationship with Huxley.

Yeah.

the reason, like, the reason I, uh, I like him so much specifically out of those guys

and I, I mean, there's different people who are on that same path and I just

learned a new terminology for it actually.

Um, Ram Dass has a great, uh, terminology for, it's me and, uh, a friend.

Were trying to, to figure out what you would call it when somebody is

maybe more aware of this path that they're on as opposed to somebody who

is completely unaware of that path and what they call the Buddhist believed

that like, uh, the Dalai Lama is always born on the path way ahead, right?

Each iteration or incarnation that being, understands where it is in

comparison to somebody who is, you know, you could say they're a new

soul as that's like a, uh, yeah.

Kind of a p pop, cultural reference.

But what I think, uh, sums it up best is some people have thinner veils.

and, uh, in the mystical cultures, the ones that embraced mysticism,

that would mean that you are closer to finishing whatever this is, or

finishing this revolution of it.

Yeah.

So like, uh, a Buddhist would say, well, this person maybe

has one or two lives to live.

You know, their ve their veil is so thin, their ascension is imminent.

Right?

Yeah.

And that would be your, I look at that as your, that white light

that's attached to the divine ground, which is re assimilate into the

ground, and then something happens.

Perhaps that is another stage of this kind of reality.

Who knows what goes on, doesn't matter.

Mm-hmm.

. Mm-hmm.

. But the understanding of that principle, I think is interesting where you, you

can have people who are, and then it also, I don't know if you've ever met

somebody who is not being responsible with ayahuasca or one of these like very.

Potent, uh, plant medicines.

There's a truth to the thinness of the veil there too.

, because it could be used in another way.

Say that you are, you are dangerously close to losing touch with reality.

Yeah.

As in you're no longer anchored down to this place like you

should be because you're not being responsible with that molecule.

And the,

you know, that's what they say.

You know, that, that it can, um, particularly with L S D, that was sort

of the thought that, that people who overuse it or misuse it can go into a

sort of irreparable state of psychosis.

Is that, is that sort of what you're, you're getting at

? Nathan: Uh, well that's a urban myth.

The, uh, they used to say you do a certain amount of acid, then you're

clinically insane, or some ridiculous thing like that, whatever that means.

But yeah, the same type of idea where if you're using a powerful psychogenic

like that, like I was, there's a podcast with a guy , if we're gonna

get really crazy here, uh, who, I don't know how familiar are with uh, D M T,

but I guess this guy was doing D M t smoking D M T, which is the, that's

the psychogenic compound in ayahuasca.

Mm-hmm.

. So when you smoke at the experience is short, it's only like six minutes.

But you can, you can have a whole life in that world in six minutes time is

not relevant there the way it is here.

So this guy was doing D M T or smoking D M T every day for like months.

Mm-hmm.

. And he was having these encounters with all these entities and uh, eventually I

guess he, uh, cuz when you smoke D M T, it's a lot of people report a sensation

of like leaving the planet entirely and they're out in this kinda, I don't

know, nether world or whatever, and.

He, he encountered a group of beings that had basically like set up a, uh, kind of,

it sounds like an intervention, but it, it, a group of 'em basically came up and

said, look, man, you gotta settle down.

You're, uh, you know, you've been in here way, way, way too much.

You're not here to learn.

You're here to, I don't know what you're doing here.

You don't know what you're doing here, but you're in serious danger

of becoming completely lost . So go home and live your life and, you

know, don't come here every day.

Don't come here for a few years even, you know, like they, they really spelled

it out for him and kind of, uh, these were D m T elves apparently, and a group

of them bounced him out of the D M T realm and told him not to come back for

a while because he'd been abusing it.

That's the story.

an an intervention within the experience.

Within the

experience.

Wow.

Wow.

Yeah, and, um, I don't know.

I don't know.

I'm not, uh, I haven't been brave enough to attempt that.

I don't, I just says it's a hell of a lot of, it's hard, I think to, uh, you

know, if you're gonna go there and do that stuff, it's, you gotta be prepared to, to

face down demons and all sorts of stuff.

And I think I'm getting to a good place, but, uh, you know, maybe when I'm a

little older and I've, uh, I've run into a stagnant place where I need to

open myself up to that again, possibly.

But, um, other than that, yeah.

Uh, doing those types of things every day.

Not responsible.

The other thing that made me think of Nathan was that, um, I know it was, it

was actually offered to me barely early on of going off work that, that there are

clinics in, at least in British Columbia, that offer ketamine infusion treatments.

Mm.

Um, for post-traumatic stress.

Mm-hmm.

, and that was offered to me and I declined it.

But I know that that is a, a paid, I mean, I think it, when it was offered

to me, it was actually a trial that they had offered to, to put me into mm-hmm.

, but there was full coverage paid for, for this experience.

Right.

And I don't know how many treatments they were offering there.

I, as an ER nurse, saw ketamine being used, um, for procedural

sedations in the er mm-hmm.

, you know, for putting someone's shoulder back in place, or

Cardiovert someone mm-hmm.

. And, uh, it never, it never looked like a, a pleasant experience.

It always looked like a fairly scary.

uncomfortable experience, but that's something that is continuing to evolve

as a, as a treatment modality and, and one that where there is coverage for

healthcare workers and first responders.

So,

um, well, yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, and the results from ketamine, especially the ketamine, n a d plus

infusions that they're doing mm-hmm.

for, uh, I think it was, I, I wanna say opiates and alcohol they were having

the most success with, but psilocybin, some of these trials are like the,

the, the doctors look at the results and they can't, they can't believe it.

They've never, I mean, it's, so, yeah.

I, I think, uh, I think that's in our future, you know, the next five, 10

years, you're probably gonna see, you might even see psilocybin become a

covered treatment modality along with, uh, some kind of talk therapy, I think.

So.

I wouldn't be surprised.

Yeah.

I agree with you.

Totally.

Um, so yeah, we got pretty derailed there.

. Corey: Just kidding me.

Now crawl outta the rabbit hole that we just

dove into . And we had folks, we had a big talk before this

one about trying to stay on track

and it didn't, but that's fine.

I mean, that's, if you don't like that kind of talk, I mean,

I don't know what to tell you.

I dunno what to tell you . Um, but anyway, we'll get back on, uh, on, on track here.

And, uh, what do you got going, Corey, for

your ? Well, this, this next book feels like a complete non-sequitur

in the conversation , which it is, but that's okay because it's gonna take us

down a whole, whole other path, I think.

Okay.

Um, it is the third book, uh, that I read chronologically in terms.

These compared to the other two books.

But, and it is also, I would say, number one in terms of its impact on

me, so it's kind of appropriate that I'm touching on this one last, uh, the

book is called Complex P T S D, from Surviving to Thriving by Pete Walker.

This came out in 2013 and the title of it is so stale and I wish, I wish Pete

title that something may be a little bit more inspiring and, but it is the

most accessible, relatable, easy to read book about, um, and practical book about

P T S D Complex, P T S D, which I'm gonna talk about in just a second here.

And then with practical tools of how to, uh, combat, combat negative thinking and.

Sort of get yourself out of these cycles of, of sort of

spiraling, spiraling thinking.

It's just so accessible and hands-on.

So first of all, complex P T S D.

We're not talking about acute P T S D or P T S D from a singular

traumatic experience, um, you know, witnessing a trauma or

witnessing a, uh, active violence.

It can be that.

But complex P T S D re refers to a more long-term effect, uh, oftentimes

rooted from childhood or early life traumas that have compounded.

Would

this be what, um, most soldiers reporting P T S D, would

they have complex P ts D or in,

in Certainly in some cases.

Okay.

It, it's not referring to though, like, you know, I was, I was.

I witnessed one singular event.

It's usually sort of a more, um, protracted, compounded life experience.

Okay.

Um, and, uh, he gets into it being quite, um, particularly

rooted in, in, in childhood stuff.

Um, and developmental trauma that can occur stuff with authority, um, but

also sort of trauma that, you know, where it's, it's more black and white.

Like, I saw this happen or this happened to me.

What he, what he's getting at here, and there's a couple of areas that I

wanted to touch on, was the fascinating discussion about emotional flashbacks.

And this is, again, unique to complex P T S D, that that a, an interaction

or a, you know, an experience with another person where it's, where

there's conflict or where there is, uh, a look or a response that you are

given that that can, can, without.

Without triggering a visual flashback of the trauma that occurred, it can

muster up the same, uh, physiological response of stress, of anxiety, um,

as the initial event that happened.

Wow.

So, you know, the feeling of being, the feeling of, of being

shamed or being ridiculed or being disciplined and that eliciting sort

of the same kind of a feeling that it did when, when you were a kid,

man, that is, uh, that is absolutely terrifying.

Yeah.

And, and so I think, you know, what it, what it explained for me was

the idea that feeling a certain way.

I, I'll I'll say at work, you know, where, and I think I was, I think I was

personally look dealing with both things.

So, Having specific trauma experiences at the workplace where I would

have a reminder of those, of those experiences that happened a year

or two ago where it would be like a sensory cue or a visual cue where like

another person comes in and there's lots of blood or something like that.

But also the feeling of feeling helpless or feeling anxious or feeling outta

control could elicit an anxiety within myself or a tension within myself.

There was actually kind of queuing me back to times that I felt

like that as a kid, I think.

Oh, wow.

Yeah.

And, and is that a, is that a common occurrence amongst most people who

have that, uh, complex P T S D?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

So I'll, I'll just read you a little, a little piece about

emotional flashbacks first here.

Emotional flashbacks are perhaps the most noticeable and characteristic

feature of complex P T S D.

Survivors of traumatizing abandonment are extremely susceptible to

painful emotional flashbacks.

Emotional flashbacks are a sudden and often prolonged regression to

the overwhelming feeling states of being abused or abandoned.

These feelings states can include overwhelming fear, shame,

alienation, rage, grief, depression.

They also include unnecessary triggering of our flight or

fight or flight instincts.

It's important to state here that emotional flashbacks, like most

things in life are not all or none.

Flashbacks can range from intensity, from subtle to horrific.

They can also vary in duration, ranging from moments to weeks on

end, where they delve into what many therapists call a regression.

So, you know, I think, I think for me at times, um, that feeling of there was a lot

of violence at work, there was a lot of, and we've in recent episodes have talked

about, about, you know, Where it wasn't necessarily physical violence, but, but

verbal aggression from patients or, or family members say how that could stir

up the same feeling, uh, as something that happened at school or something

with a bully or something with authority.

And it wouldn't necessarily take you back to, to again, the memory of that.

But these are the same feelings that, that, that sort of were conjured up then.

And then with that anxiety, with that sort of physiological discomfort, the

doors then opened to, um, negative self-talk and the inner critic.

And he, Pete Walker, the author of this book, talks a lot about

the inner critic, um, the, that tape that is constantly playing.

And you and I have talked about that for, for both of us.

That, that the, the critic sort of knows, knows everything about us, knows our

buttons, and pushes them really well.

And if, if, If you are sort of stirred into a, a state of anxiety or restlessness

or fear or depression that the, that inner critic can just sort of take off.

Mm-hmm.

. So he, he presents some, some really helpful tools of, you know, in ways how to

talk back to yourself, how to, to support yourself in talking back to that critic.

Um, you know, I gave, I think I've, I've given this example in meetings, but maybe

it's a, a good one to give here that, you know, thinking about anxiety around

which, picking a daycare for my son Okay.

And feeling like I'm gonna, that my inner critic was telling me

you're, you know, you're putting your son in, in, in harm's way.

You're neglecting 'em by putting 'em into daycare.

Um, you're setting 'em up to potentially be, you know, molested

or to have adults who you don't know or trust, look after him.

. And the way I combated that, and I learned that this from, that, from

from this book, was to literally tell myself when I'm, when I'm thinking

about that, like I have good judgment.

I trust my own judgment.

I can read people.

I have the skills and the ability to make the choice that is best for my son.

And I will do the best that I can to make that choice.

And so like literally talking back and pushing that inner critic away, which

sounds so hokey, but you've got this tape that's playing negatively, and if

you don't push back against that, um, it can just get absolutely carried away.

It can drive you insane.

It can, and, and

it, it can lead you towards, um, more anxiety, more

depression, more restlessness, more.

Negative, light, harmful life choices.

So just learning to sort of, and he describes it as, you know, self

parenting, self mothering and self fathering, , where you are, you were

the one who's like building yourself up and supporting that inner voice

and, and challenging that, that critic.

Mm-hmm.

. Nathan: Yeah.

I like to think of it as being your own best friend.

Yes, exactly.

If you literally saying, talking to

that best friend, . Exactly.

Exactly.

You know, no, I, I, yeah.

Quite regularly, there's a couple of me going on inside my head and, uh, one is

the more autopilot and it is more, more prone to, you know, slipping a negative

thinking without, you know, just doing it on kind of more like a default setting.

Yeah.

But I've come a long way in training myself to, to challenge those

thoughts as quick as possible.

Yeah.

And you, you don't even have to.

You know how you can be nice about it.

? Yeah.

Look.

Okay, Nathan.

I see what's going on here.

You know what, uh, where's the evidence for that, uh, statement?

What's, uh, says who, you know, that kinda cognitive behavioral therapy type stuff.

Yes.

And I think you should be nice in that, in that voice that

you talk back to it and Yeah.

Um,

otherwise you get into this like back and forth that, uh, turns into

you can fuel the fire with that, uh, technique as well if you're not careful.

Yes.

You know, there's, there's lots of in here about how, how complex P

T S D and trauma is connected to, um, self soothing and, you know, addictive

behavior as a self, initially, as a self soothing mechanism, as a way of, of, um,

trying to ease that emotional flashback.

A way to ease that, that, uh, you know, feeling of, of anxiety

or agitation or, or, or fear.

. And again, I, for, for myself in the workplace, I think that

that was so, so rooted in that.

Okay.

So the, the other fascinating thing that I learned, um, from this book, and

we've talked about in, in our Caduceus meetings, we all know fight or flight

or we should know that fairly well, just as like a, a basic sort of human

response to a, to a stressor or a stimuli.

Pete Walker really puts in the third f as fawn.

Mm-hmm.

, and that was one that I didn't know before.

You know, the, the, the tendency that some of us have to sort of, to placate, to

smooth things over, to, you know, instead of, um, you know, freezing and hiding or

running away, you know, you try to pet the lion or try to try to feed the lion to

make it happy and then it may not eat you.

Right.

Right.

And.

In this one chapter of the book, he's talking about, you know,

the fawn or flight response as a, as a, as a human characteristic.

Hmm.

The title that he gives it.

Interestingly, Fascinatingly is the Super Nurse.

Okay,

there you go.

That's you.

The f that's me.

The, the fawn flight type is most typically seen in the busy hallic

parent, the nurse, the administrative assistant who works from dawn until

bedtime, providing for the needs of the household, the hospital or the company.

He compulsively takes care of everyone else's needs with

hardly a gesture towards his own.

The Foner flight is sometimes a misguided Mother Theresa type who escapes the pain

of self abandonment by seeing herself as the perfect selfless caregiver,

further distancing herself from her own pain by obsessive compulsively, rushing

from one person in need to another.

Some flan fight client, some fawn flight clients also become O C D, like in.

Cleanaholic tendencies.

One of my interns told me that her fawn flight client had a dozen color coded

toothbrushes from various micro cleaning tasks in her family's bathroom or kitchen.

. Some project their perfectionism onto others.

They can appoint themselves as honorary advisors or over

overburden others with their advice.

However, it behooves fond flights to learn that caring is not always about fixing.

This is especially true when the person we are trying to help is in emotional pain.

Many times.

All per all a person needs is empathy, acceptance, and an

opportunity to verbally vent.

Moreover, some mood states also need time to resolve.

Loving people when they're feeling bad is a powerful kind of caring.

So the super nurse, I mean, and I, I, I was certainly one of them.

I've known a good number of them.

Mm-hmm.

, where your needs go out the window.

Your needs are, are.

, not even secondary.

They're, they're just non-existent and Right.

And for me, the fawning to say, yeah, I'll take on that extra shift.

I'll stay later.

I'll do the overtime.

I'll look after these 16 patients that are stacked up in a hallway and, and I won't

even, you know, bark to administration about it or, or, or whatever that may

be, that need to, to people please.

And to fawn in, in the presence of a stressor.

It became, it became so entangled with an emotional flashback and

that constant feeling of like stress and anxiety in my body.

That, and I was so afraid to face it and to say no, that the

easiest thing was to medicate it.

Right?

The most natural, obvious thing, obvious thing

was to medicate.

Yeah.

Well that makes perfect sense.

You need , your tendency towards this super nurse kind of persona.

And then you're asking something of yourself that is basically

not, not tenable, not long-term.

Mm-hmm.

anyways.

Therefore, the only way to continue on is to medicate.

Yeah.

And you know what, this is what I remember going back to our Maya

Salz episode where I, I had kind of asked her a question about like

pre-screening healthcare workers.

Mm-hmm.

. And she had said, I think you would exclude a lot of really wonderful people

from the mix if you pre-screened everyone and said, no, you can't be a nurse . And

I most definitely agree with her.

Yeah.

But I do think tying it all, It's a conversation that

should be had in universities.

Yes.

Or in high schools, or elementary schools even.

But at the very least in universities where people are directly going into

a profession that will put them at

risk.

Yeah.

It's a tough one because how do you get people to understand

the danger they're in?

Yeah.

Like, it, it's not, it's a very difficult thing to articulate.

It's very personal.

And I mean, to have it work effectively, you'd have to somehow communicate to

people during the application process almost, because you'd wanna say, look, do

you accept the risks of your, you know, you appear to be a, uh, the computer has

identified you through an algorithm as a super nurse or something like that.

Right.

. Yeah.

And, uh, what are you gonna do, uh, in these situations?

And I, I mean, awareness is always better than not aware.

Yep.

. So I guess you, you just having that there, it would be a work in progress.

It would be a hell of a thing to implement, but, uh, I don't

think there's any harm in it.

I mean, I sure would've liked to, I mean, I think many of us go in, we choose paths

that, I mean, you don't want everybody trying to prevent everything, but if

you know that you're going to into a specific area of danger and there seems

to be a common occurrence of, you know, like what's happening to nurses right

now is the best example I could think of.

I mean, there should be more being done in the beginning to address that for sure.

Yeah.

Yeah,

yeah.

Yeah.

And, and, and we can't, when I say we, um, society or a health authority, can't

take responsibility for everyone's, you know, psychological background.

And can't sort of try to rectify, you know, every piece of, of childhood

trauma or P T S D that, that preceded their employment mm-hmm.

like you just, that would just be impossible and unrealistic

and, and just too much.

Mm-hmm.

. But, um, I think to understand that, that, that people are coming into that

profession or into that shift or that experience with, with the context that

that makes them who they, all of these things that make up the fabric of their

psychology and of their mind and their reactions and that not everyone like

can just sort of brush it off mm-hmm.

and that is what is expected of people.

And, and it, again, it kind of comes back to peer support.

It comes back to, um, to discussion.

Yeah.

But again, I, I, that's something I, I, I wish I had of learned

much, much earlier in my career.

For sure.

Completely understandable.

And, uh, we can do a better job there.

I know we can.

I did wanna mention since you were, you chose a P T S

D format, uh, book to mm-hmm.

to end with there.

Uh, for people who are interested, the, the company that I, uh, started

obsidian Support Services, uh, Corey's gonna help me out with that.

And, uh, Corey will be facilitating a new group that is going to be, or groups,

depending on how many people sign up, it's going to be centered on P T S D.

And, uh, it will be the same as the other type of groups in that

it's a peer support based model.

Mm-hmm.

, it's not a hierarchy, it's not a top down, it's not a, here I'm

the expert, listen to me thing.

It's a bunch of people getting together online, exchanging ideas about what

works for P T S D or just talking about what's not working at the time.

And, uh, finding support in others because that's, that, uh, that's

that community that we're talking about and we're trying to build.

So, yeah.

Yeah.

Corey's gonna take that on and, uh, we're gonna start that in the new year.

Mm-hmm.

, we'll have something up and go on by, uh, I'd like to by the end of January,

I think we can make that happen.

Absolutely.

Yep.

Yeah, so I, I thought I'd throw that in there.

I'm glad that you did, Nathan.

I, it's, it is, I think it's something that we're still learning about, that

society's still learning about that addiction medicine is still, is still

learning about, you know, I look at the fact that workers' compensation

organizations in our country and in our province are now understanding and

accepting that there's a correlation between P PTs, d Complex, P T S D and, and

addiction and are are supportive of that.

That in itself is a milestone and it is, yeah.

That's good to see.

It's good to see it.

It's a relatively new.

A new sort of approach that is being taken there because I, I think it's

what we're, what we've learned is that people come, again, people have

had such a vast array of experiences that, that got them to that place.

Yeah, absolutely.

But there are, there's threads of commonality that can be, I mean, we

could take advantage of these things in, in community with community support.

So, yeah.

Yeah, I'm looking forward to that.

What I'll do is just, uh, mention this last book here again.

Uh, thanks to Peter for pointing this one out.

It looks good.

I've only, you know, went through the first little bit, but it's

this author, uh, Carl Eric Fisher.

Fisher is the last name and, uh, it's called The Urge or History of Addiction.

And it looks like this guy spent about 10 years just really going deep on.

, all these, uh, you know, you talk about the old campaigns, uh, uh,

and, uh, patterns of drug, uh, they, they, they call drug epi epidemics.

Um, and to see how far back this pattern that we've been in goes is fascinating.

And this guy really nails it down and points out some, uh, tremendously

important science along the way.

Uh, so yeah, I've got a ways to go on that one, but I, I do wanna mention

it because I think it's gonna be, uh, it's gonna be up there on my list.

So take a look at that one.

It's called The Urge, our History of Addiction by Carl Eric Fisher.

We'll just give that, uh, mention and thanks again, Peter.

Yeah.

And you know, I, I'll certainly say to our listeners, we would love

to know other books that have got you, got you through a difficult time or,

or helped you learn something about yourself, um, helped in your, sort of,

your progress with recovery or healing.

whatever that may be.

And it, like, it doesn't have to be, it doesn't have to be a textbook, it

doesn't have to be heavy into psychology.

It could be a novel.

And there are a handful of novels that I thought about about bringing

in today too, that it would be for a different discussion.

But, um, but yeah, whatever, whatever has sort of helped you along the

way, we'd love to hear about it too.

Yeah, absolutely.

Any piece of rating, a piece of poem, maybe something you wrote.

Um, it's, it's amazing.

It, it, sometimes it's, it comes down to just two or three lines, right?

Mm-hmm.

that, uh, that hit you at the right time.

Yeah, absolutely.

But yeah, this was fun, man.

This, uh, I like this good idea.

We should maybe do this, uh, I don't know, periodically of some sort.

I think that's a good idea.

Yep.

Yeah.

Alright, we'll leave it there, folks.

Uh, hope everybody's having a happy holidays and, uh, We'll probably see

you again in the new year, I think.

For sure.

And I don't think we're gonna have an episode in between,

so we'll just say that.

. Yeah.