Join host Marvin Cash on The Articulate Fly for an enriching conversation with returning guest and author Steve Ramirez. In this episode, Steve delves into the profound lessons he's learned from the river and provides an update on his latest book, "Casting Homeward." Marvin and Steve discuss the importance of adapting to life's unpredictable nature, the value of curiosity and learning and the deep connections we form with nature and each other through fly fishing.

Steve shares insights from his successful "Casting" book series, reflecting on the journey from "Casting Forward" to the upcoming release of "Casting Homeward." He also hints at his future projects and the philosophical and practical lessons embedded in his writing.

Whether you're a seasoned angler or new to the sport, this episode offers a wealth of wisdom and inspiration, highlighting the therapeutic and transformative power of fly fishing. Tight lines!

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Helpful Episode Chapters

00:00 Introduction

6:37 Lessons from Fly Fishing and Life

14:29 The Journey Interview

16:57 The Serendipity of Fly Fishing

22:04 The Importance of Curiosity

24:01 Gaining Perspective from Nature

29:06 Concerns about Disconnect from Nature

35:35 Connecting with All Living Beings

38:52 Technology as a Tool

55:52 Never Stop Learning

Intro: Hey folks, it's Marvin Cash, the host of The Articulate Fly.

Intro: On this episode, friend and author Steve Ramirez returns to the podcast.

Intro: We have a great conversation about lessons from the river, and Steve updates

Intro: us on his latest book, Casting Homeward. I think you're really going to enjoy it.

Intro: But before we get to the interview, just a couple of housekeeping items.

Intro: If you like the podcast, please tell a friend and please subscribe and leave

Intro: us a rating review in the podcatcher of your choice. It really helps us out.

Intro: And I hope everyone had a safe and relaxing 4th of July with family and friends.

Intro: I want to thank all of our listeners for their patience as we took last week

Intro: off to attend the Outdoor Writers Association of America's Field Fest in Johnson City, Tennessee.

Intro: It was great to spend time with colleagues and get more content for the show.

Intro: And we will be in Orlando later this week for ICAST if you will be too hit us

Intro: up on social media if you want to connect it's always great to meet listeners on the road,

Intro: and we recently released an interview only show The Long Haul with the Articulate

Intro: Fly so if you prefer to listen to the Articulate Fly without the fishing reports,

Intro: just search The Long Haul in your favorite podcatcher now on to the interview.

Marvin: Well Steve welcome back to the Articulate Fly lie.

Steve: It is truly my pleasure. You know that. And thank you for inviting me.

Marvin: Oh, gosh, I love our conversations. You know, folks, it's kind of funny.

Marvin: We were talking before we started recording, and it's been almost two years

Marvin: since Steve was on the last time.

Marvin: And there's been a little bit of water under the bridge.

Marvin: I know you've several more books in the casting series, and I know you've got

Marvin: the last of that series is going to get released in September.

Steve: Yes, September 3rd.

Marvin: And so I'm trying to remember if it was two years ago you had two of the books

Marvin: in this series out is that right or was it just one.

Steve: I think it two were out and the third coming out last time we spoke.

Steve: So Casting Onward, which since we've spoke,

Steve: has been the last number of months, number one on Amazon, which is a beautiful

Steve: thing, and was highlighted in the movie Mending the Line, which is why it had a second life.

Steve: And then Casting Onward was the second book. I think those two were out when

Steve: we spoke last. Casting Seaward was coming out.

Steve: And it's now been out for two years. And since I seem to be running it about

Steve: one book every two years, casting Homeward, which is the final in the casting

Steve: series with Lions Press, that comes out September 3rd.

Steve: And it's on pre-order right now for people that want to pre-order. And I'm really excited.

Marvin: Yeah, it's super neat too. And I know, you know, because we've talked a little

Marvin: bit, that you're sort of meditating on what the next project will be because

Marvin: you are in perpetual motion a little bit like I am.

Steve: Yes and i i basically know

Steve: the next project it's not something i'm

Steve: going to go public with yet except to say that i'm excited about

Steve: it it's challenging and it's the kind

Steve: of thing uh you and i've talked before my writing is

Steve: is a lot about destination both in

Steve: reality and philosophically and um

Steve: so yeah it's an expansion on even though it's it's the start of something completely

Steve: new from the casting series it's a great expansion um in a wonderful i think

Steve: it's going to be a great adventure for everyone and they get to do it with me

Steve: without um you know the mosquitoes and,

Steve: and the bears yeah and.

Marvin: And while they wait they can always read your column in fly fisherman magazine.

Steve: And that's true. And thank you for bringing that up. I'm actually quite open

Steve: about the fact that I feel very fortunate and love it that I'm a small part

Steve: of the Fly Fisherman Magazine family.

Steve: I do love it.

Marvin: Yeah, it's a neat magazine. And I think Ross has done a really good job of kind

Marvin: of bringing that magazine into the 21st century.

Steve: See that's i'm gonna say stuff and i'm up front ross is my friend and and i'm

Steve: and uh so i have to say that right up front but he's my friend because of who

Steve: i see him and how i see him and i think he's worked really hard to make that

Steve: such a rounded experience everything from how to,

Steve: to where to to why to um you know why we do it and then what's our responsibility

Steve: which is the the part I love the most,

Steve: you know, I think he's really getting us all to sync or helping us bringing

Steve: people together to help all of us think together about how we can protect what

Steve: we love, you know, and love what we protect.

Steve: So yeah, I'm definitely, I don't mean to go on too much, but I think he's done

Steve: a great job and I'm really very happy to be part of it.

Marvin: Yeah, it's very neat. And, you know, we've talked multiple times since the last

Marvin: interview and, you know, one of the things I always enjoy about our conversations

Marvin: and I enjoy this, This, you know, not all of my interviews are like this,

Marvin: but I love what I call the journey interview.

Marvin: And, you know, we've been kind of kicking around. I mean, gosh,

Marvin: we've probably been talking about this for six months.

Marvin: You know, kind of what did we want to talk about when we got together again?

Marvin: And, you know, I don't generally do interviews where it's like the book's out.

Marvin: Let's talk about the book. But we thought it would be kind of interesting to

Marvin: just talk about lessons from the river.

Marvin: And, you know, I mean, I think we've got a handful of kind of topics.

Marvin: But, you know, I'll kind of open it up because, I mean, one of the things,

Marvin: you know, everyone that knows me, everyone will get ready to laugh.

Marvin: I'll say I'm moderately wound tightly.

Steve: I laugh too.

Marvin: And so, you know, one of the things I think that's really one of the things

Marvin: I've kind of taken away from kind of my life, you know, on the water is that

Marvin: you can only take what the river is willing to give you.

Steve: Right. Just like life. No matter how much we think we have control, we don't.

Steve: We only have control over our decisions. So you can cast over here,

Steve: cast over there, stand here, stand there, and it's pretty much like.

Steve: It doesn't mean you know it's coming around the bend.

Marvin: Yeah. And you know, we can control how we react to those situations as well.

Steve: Right. That's exactly, that's a lot of times I'll write to myself and to others.

Steve: I'll say I can do nothing about what happens in life or what happens in fishing.

Steve: They're really the same. I mean, it's been said before, but you can really connect

Steve: anything you want to, to fly fishing in nature and you can learn anything if you pay attention.

Steve: Attention so um but it's it's

Steve: true i can choose i can see what's happening

Steve: and then i can make a choice choice of my

Steve: response rather than simply react out

Steve: of emotion i can respond out of something bigger than that so i do think it

Steve: all connects whether you're deciding i'm going to toss a dry fly right now and

Steve: i'm going to do it here in this way or i'm gonna i'm going to do something that

Steve: i'm not a big fan of but i've done it a lot of it which is nymphing and um,

Steve: but in life we do the same thing.

Steve: You know, we can take a moment and decide this is what I'm going to do.

Steve: Some of the best things are scary.

Marvin: Yeah, and it's interesting too, right? Because, you know, kind of with my kind

Marvin: of lawyer banker background, you know, if you apply enough force and resources,

Marvin: you should get what you want.

Marvin: And, you know, one of the things is you just, you know, some days you go fish

Marvin: and it's like, this is all we can get today.

Steve: Right and it's okay and the victory is can you go fishing catch nothing and have a great time,

Steve: and my answer is always yes but i know uh you know i remember a friend who golfed,

Steve: i don't even remember his name now it was so long ago and i asked him

Steve: why he loved golf he said it's so relaxing and i

Steve: was a big runner back then and uh because

Steve: i could be and i was running the trail through the golf course

Steve: and i heard some guys cursing through cursing and

Steve: and i saw this golf club come flying

Steve: past my head it was him um you know fly fishing and golfing is is like an island

Steve: if you you don't bring it with you you're not going to find it so he didn't

Steve: bring peace with them he wasn't going to find it um but you but yes if you bring

Steve: peace to the that river you seek it You're going to find it.

Steve: And I learned so much by paying attention as an angler about life and about myself.

Steve: So, yeah, the reflection in the water is more than just you. Yeah.

Marvin: It's interesting, too, because, you know, I'm fortunate enough to get to spend

Marvin: time with people because, you know, I always say I'll be proper since it's you

Marvin: and say, you know, fly fishing is something that heals me.

Marvin: And so if I can, you know, bring that to other people, I'm always happy to do that.

Marvin: And one of the things I try to tell people because beginners so often get so

Marvin: frustrated and it's like there's so many tiny victories from a day on the water.

Steve: Yes and if you really want to be brave and this

Steve: is you know everything is subjective so this is

Steve: my subjective view if people read my work you'll

Steve: find that i'm constantly throwing myself into positions i've never

Steve: been in before and doing things i've never tried before so

Steve: i'm always a beginner and you've

Steve: got to learn how to forgive yourself when things don't go right that's

Steve: how how you learn so um i constantly

Steve: i'm trying something new and it's

Steve: really cool so i'm 63 years old

Steve: but i don't feel it i feel like a kid

Steve: because i'm always trying something new and if it doesn't work out big deal

Steve: i mean your kid you fall in the mud you get back up uh when you're adult you

Steve: fall in the mud and you you think your day's ruined so i'm definitely a 63 year

Steve: old kid And I like it. I like it.

Marvin: Yeah, it's interesting too, right? Because there's, you know,

Marvin: when you face that kind of adversity and newness and, you know,

Marvin: you don't always triumph, however we want to define triumphing.

Marvin: But, you know, what I think it does is it expands your capacity to do more crazy stuff, right? Yeah.

Steve: Yeah and i think it it's all practice so

Steve: if you um i think the failure there's

Steve: the failure is possible but to me failure is

Steve: if you've failed to complete something you're trying to do or trying to learn

Steve: and then you didn't learn anything from it then you failed but if you if you

Steve: made a mistake and then you learn from it you pick up and you go again then

Steve: you're good you're golden so i love it To me, fly fishing,

Steve: lessons from the river are always coming.

Steve: They're always there. And I think we brought this up because I was sharing with

Steve: you earlier that no matter what I write in that, there's going to be lessons

Steve: from the river embedded into that book.

Steve: There have been in the past, but there's going to be more.

Steve: And that is because, again, my subjective opinion, the world is really hurting right now.

Steve: And to me, we humans are the proximate cause of that hurt, including to ourselves.

Steve: And so if we ask ourselves, what can we do to make things better?

Steve: The first thing we got to do is make ourselves better.

Steve: Fly fishing the river and paying attention in nature helps me become a better

Steve: person. Does that make sense?

Marvin: No, it does. And, you know, while you were saying that, I was kind of thinking

Marvin: about something, you know, a lot of what I do. I, you know, and I've talked

Marvin: to you a lot about my boys and they're at that age where, you know, I'm coaching, right?

Marvin: But I, but I'm also sort of, you know, try to, you know, be a helpful soul in the world.

Marvin: And it's kind of interesting because, you know, to your point,

Marvin: there's so much rancor, right?

Marvin: And to me, it's a choice, right? You know, whether you want to get up in the

Marvin: morning and have a little bit of outrage on your cornflakes or not.

Steve: Not for me.

Marvin: Right. Right. And so, you know, it's funny. And so like, I, I really push my

Marvin: boys and I'll, you know, uh, you know, push other people in my circle.

Marvin: I just kind of suggest that maybe they should start by being the change they want to see in the world.

Steve: Right and that's where it starts i mean that's what we can

Steve: do i had a deep conversation with a friend yesterday who

Steve: spent 30 40 years of her life working for

Steve: peace in the world and we we talked about

Steve: the struggles and and i i have

Steve: another friend that spent time with the dalai lama and spent time

Steve: with the doctor of the dalai lama and one day she was

Steve: complaining she was actually talking to the doctor of the

Steve: dalai lama about struggles she was having in

Steve: in dealing with the world and he just

Steve: leaned over and said you can always feed the birds he

Steve: said what she says you can feed the birds all we

Steve: can do is what we can do you know so sometimes what i do is those small thing

Steve: and on the river those are some of those small things you know i was with uh

Steve: years ago in a road casting onward i was on a river high up in the mountains

Steve: of colorado with kirk dieter from from Trout Unlimited, also a dear friend.

Steve: And Kirk and I were fishing together and this young man with his girlfriend

Steve: came down and basically they parked by our car because they saw that we were

Steve: there, so they figured it might

Steve: be a good fishing spot and he just jumped right where we were gonna go.

Steve: And went and fished right in the water we were gonna go to. And I watched how

Steve: Kirk handled that, which was beautiful. He says he probably has no idea what he's doing.

Steve: So Kirk offered to teach him how to be more successful fishing.

Steve: Gave him some great tips, and then handed him some flies that he could use.

Steve: And then was able to teach him in that process etiquette.

Steve: You know, where other people might have yelled at this young man who it turned

Steve: out just came out of the military after serving in Afghanistan.

Steve: He just didn't know what he was doing.

Steve: So, yeah, I don't want any cornflake. I don't want any rage in my cornflake.

Steve: You know, I carried a weapon for 35 years. I don't need any more.

Marvin: Yeah. It's interesting too, Steve, because, you know, I'm always fascinated,

Marvin: you know, talking to creatives.

Marvin: And, you know, I'm fortunate to be able to interview a lot of authors and other

Marvin: creators, you know, on the podcast.

Marvin: And, you know, kind of one of the things too, kind of another thing I think

Marvin: about when I think about lessons from the river is how it helps us create that

Marvin: serendipitous space, right, to solve problems and to be creative.

Steve: Right.

Steve: It does. It does. And why don't you tell me a little bit more of how you see

Steve: that? Now I'm interviewing.

Marvin: Oh, fair enough. I'll indulge you. It's fine.

Marvin: So, you know, it's an interesting thing, right?

Marvin: So if you go back and if I say that I'm moderately, tightly wound,

Marvin: right? So you think that, you know, pushing, pushing, pushing, pushing, it works.

Marvin: And, you know, I don't know when I sort of connected this dot late,

Marvin: no doubt, but that, you know, you just don't schedule at nine o'clock on Friday

Marvin: morning, I'm going to find the cure for cancer.

Marvin: Right. It just doesn't, it doesn't work like that. Right. And,

Marvin: and so, you know, for me, I try to kind of order the world in what I call strategic and tactical.

Marvin: Okay. And, you know, strategic is kind of a narrow word, really,

Marvin: because it's all it's any I would say it's any kind of created and creative endeavor.

Marvin: And I think that, you know, not relentlessly applying force and resources.

Marvin: Sometimes you just have to learn how to do that and that it's OK and that it's

Marvin: not a waste of time. Right.

Steve: OK. And. You know, I've learned so much from all the different things that I've done in Marine Corps.

Steve: Of course when you start talking about strategy and tactics then i go

Steve: there in my head i go to your strategy as a

Steve: plan and tactics are the way you execute that plan but um

Steve: they're also a great lesson in that life happens to us as we plan and i think

Steve: the number one thing we're going to have for the 21st century that's going to

Steve: decide which of us are going to survive as part of our species is our ability to deal with the,

Steve: we do not know what's coming next.

Steve: So we're going to have to be able to deal with that.

Steve: And yeah, I think we do have to hold space.

Steve: When we're fly fishing, we're on a river, we're in nature and anything,

Steve: whether you're a fisher, hunter, or a wildlife photographer,

Steve: there is serendipity involved in that process.

Steve: Process and that has to be a lot of times what happens for

Steve: me is the best things happen when i simply wait or i

Steve: i just i'm open to them happening i'm paying

Steve: attention and you keep hearing me saying paying attention paying attention because

Steve: that's that's what it is and when i find myself being blocked even as a writer

Steve: i'm thinking okay what am i going to do here you know the terror of the blank

Steve: page uh the first thing i'm going to do is make some coffee and relax and just

Steve: let it be there's this there's,

Steve: we creating force and also i spent years in martial arts as well and i learned

Steve: studying aikido that uh force is not always the answer a lot of times it's redirecting force,

Steve: so um yeah you can't force it yep you just can't you just got to go with the

Steve: flow and that's such a cliche but um see what there is so many ways that i look

Steve: at what we do standing in a river,

Steve: I'm much more of a river guy than a lake guy, by the way, because I like movement.

Steve: I love fishing in the surf and reading the surf.

Steve: It makes you pay attention. It makes you focus and learn and adapt and improvise and overcome.

Steve: And so to me, fly fishing, obviously, is just something that grabs all of that.

Steve: And we've talked before about it being healing. it's certainly a conduit for

Steve: creativity if we're open but if if what our focus is is how many fish we can

Steve: catch and how big they are then we're very limited especially as i i see our rivers are are,

Steve: largely suffering with every passing year um i think there's a whole lot more

Steve: to it than that i think what you call fly fishing the bicycle yes yeah i like

Steve: that a lot so um yeah i'll hope I didn't go on too much there.

Marvin: No, not at all. And I would say I'll also have to acknowledge,

Marvin: Steve, that that's a little bit building on a metaphor that Steve Jobs had at

Marvin: Apple, where he said that computers, I think, were bicycles for the brain.

Steve: Okay. Well, and again, it is much more convoluted. So your listeners are going

Steve: to hear how deep we get here.

Steve: Because I mentioned before, everything's like an island, which if you don't

Steve: have it with you, if you don't bring it there, it's not there.

Steve: And what we bring to the river, what we bring to our life, we can either have

Steve: rage or we can... I've had people that were saying, well, I'm just so angry

Steve: about that, and I'll listen to them, and I'll say, okay, well,

Steve: you have a right to be that way if that's what you want.

Steve: And they'd say, what do you mean, if that's what you want? I said,

Steve: well, you could choose not to be angry.

Steve: I mean, again, I'm going to get kind of zen here, but I think it was the Dalai

Steve: Lama that said, you will not be punished for your anger. Your anger is your punishment.

Steve: So, the last person to flip me off in traffic, I think I blew a kiss.

Steve: Which freaked him out a bit.

Marvin: Yeah yeah yeah some people could say that was passive-aggressive but but uh maybe.

Steve: But i i just i just laughed like wouldn't you so angry about you're such a rush

Steve: and we're all going to the same place so um.

Marvin: Yeah it it's it's an interesting thing about uh you know while while we're kind

Marvin: of in this little zen place you know it's like it's funny because i'll I'll

Marvin: like tell my boys sometimes I was like, you know, so if you're twice as angry,

Marvin: how, what does that help you change?

Marvin: Right. In the metaphor I use with them to help them understand that as I said,

Marvin: so once you see the tiger, if you're twice as scared, do you run any faster?

Steve: Perfect. Perfect.

Marvin: Right.

Steve: And we'll serve you to run.

Marvin: Yeah.

Steve: So, um, yeah. So, yeah, I mean, we get, we get to be human and, and we all are.

Steve: And so here again, I use the river metaphor and it goes part of my,

Steve: you know, imperfect text and Buddha persona that I've taken on myself.

Steve: And I get these things that grab a hold of me in that negative way.

Steve: I look at them like I'm analyzing something in a glass box and I say,

Steve: okay, I'm feeling anxiety or anger or stress or whatever it happens to be. Why is that?

Steve: And then I think it through and I think, you know, what do you want to do about

Steve: it? And then when I figured that out, I stick that in the river and let it float

Steve: around the corner and let it go.

Steve: That sounds cliche, but it works

Steve: for me because I can only do what I can do. So we go back to fishing.

Steve: You can go and have a fantastic time no matter what happens.

Steve: Or you can choose to be pissed off because it didn't come out the way you planned.

Steve: And, you know, the fish don't have a script. And their job is to survive and

Steve: procreate and pass on their genetics just like us.

Steve: Their job is not to get caught by you. Yes. So, uh, I'm, I'm never upset if

Steve: I don't catch the fish, that's my fault.

Steve: And when I do catch them, it's wonderful. And then I treat them nicely,

Steve: you know, unless we're going to eat them.

Marvin: It's interesting too, you know, because talking about bringing things to the

Marvin: island always, you know, makes me think about how important it is to bring curiosity

Marvin: to the island and what a safe place fly fishing is to be curious.

Steve: Oh, I love that. I love that. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. And we're losing that, I think.

Steve: And again, I'm just being, you know, I'm saying what I think doesn't mean I'm right.

Steve: But to me, one of the problems with the answer at your fingertips is we're losing

Steve: our creativity, and we're also becoming way too easy to simply accept.

Steve: If you don't have – I talked about being a 63-year-old kid.

Steve: Well, I'm forever flipping rocks over. When I was a little kid,

Steve: I was always flipping rocks over to see what lived under there.

Steve: I know, oh, a salamander. Oh, under the water, I have some rocks.

Steve: Okay, there's some mayfly.

Steve: I'm still doing that. and it

Steve: keep that curiosity what's going on here today and what

Steve: does it mean and what can i what can i learn from this it also puts us into

Steve: a really good sense of our place in the world and you and i have talked about

Steve: this um you know we're we're a blip a nice blip or blip.

Marvin: Yeah it's an interesting thing it's really kind of a great kind of segue kind

Marvin: of into the kind of the next thing i was going to talk about which is how it

Marvin: helps us get out of that egocentric worldview,

Marvin: right and you know um you know you can get a lot of perspective like you can

Marvin: get perspective if you're in yellowstone and you get lost or you see a bear

Marvin: right yes yes like that's one kind of perspective but i also too to your point

Marvin: i think you know when you look at um,

Marvin: You know, when you're observant and you see, you know, what's going on,

Marvin: but you also see, you know, entire life cycles that are much shorter than yours, right?

Marvin: How does that inform how you should live your life, right? Sure.

Marvin: You know, I think I've told you before, I have a favorite rock that's three-fourths

Marvin: of the way through a way trip that I take relatively frequently where I sit

Marvin: and eat the sandwich and watch the kingfishers.

Steve: I love that.

Marvin: And, you know, I, I know, I know about how long I have, you know,

Marvin: on some days I can sit on the rock and you can smell the deer,

Marvin: but you can't see the deer.

Steve: Oh yeah. I love that. I love that. That is, that is what it's all about.

Marvin: Yeah. And so, you know, it's an interesting thing. And I think,

Marvin: you know, that, you know, helping with context, um, also might,

Marvin: you know, help us maybe find something other than rage for the cornflakes in the morning.

Steve: Sure. And there's times when I think, I don't want to say rage, but maybe outrage.

Steve: I don't know. There's times when it's okay to say this is wrong.

Steve: And that's another thing I love that fly fishing can do for us.

Steve: It connects us not just to a fish, but the fish to the river,

Steve: the river to the mayflies, the riparian habitat, the need we have trees to cool the water.

Steve: And it goes on and goes on and why we need rain. And once you've done all that

Steve: connection, you understand how small you are, but also that you're part of this

Steve: huge thing that is so beautiful.

Steve: And once we have that, it's okay for us to feel a certain degree of this is

Steve: wrong when we notice that people are throwing their beer cans in the river.

Steve: Or um that they're randomly killing fish and throwing them up on the on the

Steve: shore to die or you know we could go on and on about that but then how do we deal with that,

Steve: and so what i love too is a lot of

Steve: fly fishing organizations and i'm not a big

Steve: organization guy even though i am a life member of trial

Steve: unlimited uh are doing great work

Steve: at cleaning up rivers of of teaching people to respect nature

Steve: and each other and that

Steve: to me is what we need to pass on you know that that

Steve: respect that empathy so empathy for the

Steve: fish and i have killed and eaten fish so it's

Steve: not like i'm you know saying this is you

Steve: get where i'm coming from i do we have we

Steve: have empathy for the fish so i have asthma and heart disease

Steve: and i write about that in this fourth book coming out and with my asthma which

Steve: is beginning progressively worse i remember what it's like not to be able to

Steve: breathe so when i pull take a fish i try to keep it in the water and i always

Steve: know if i have to bring that for some reason that one eye is looking towards the water,

Steve: wanting to get back and the other eye is looking right at me and i've got it

Steve: life in my hand literally that kind of empathy um is something i see us losing in the world.

Steve: And this is coming not this is coming from a former u.s marine that you know

Steve: i'm saying i'm it's not um i'm not a big mush but i am uh every true warrior

Steve: i've ever known has nothing to prove,

Steve: um and i've served with a lot of them and they

Steve: had nothing to prove there was no big ego they knew that they were small and

Steve: i don't mean to be too graphic here but i've seen a lot of death they had seen

Steve: a lot of death and all you have to do is notice what it's like to see a human

Steve: being turn into a sack of potatoes and you realize okay i'm not that important

Steve: except for what good i can do here,

Steve: So I think fly fishing, being in nature, it is part of what we need both in

Steve: the healing of our world and ourselves and in the teaching to remind us.

Steve: And I hope you don't mind. I went a little crazy there in sharing,

Steve: but I'm passionate about it.

Marvin: Yeah, it deeply concerns me in a slightly different way.

Marvin: And so I see – and part of this great thing about being on a river where your

Marvin: phone doesn't work, which I think is glorious,

Marvin: is finding that connection and being truly connected to the resource.

Marvin: And I think, you know, as I watch the challenges that, say, for example,

Marvin: some of our not-for-profits are facing, I mean, people are not engaged.

Marvin: Engaged, and this isn't in a judgmental way, but if you look at the data,

Marvin: you know, if people fly fish one to three days a year, and that's half the people

Marvin: that fly fish in a year, it deeply concerns me.

Marvin: It's actually something I've made a mental note to sit down and talk to Chris

Marvin: Wood the next time I'm with him, because I think that, you know,

Marvin: if you fast forward 15 years,

Marvin: we're going to start to really see how difficult it's going to be to care about

Marvin: these things that i know you care deeply about.

Steve: Right um.

Marvin: Because we're literally breeding that attachment out of our humanity.

Steve: Yes i'm so

Steve: glad you brought that up and i i'm um the

Steve: fourth book the one that's coming out and this is actually this is not a

Steve: book plug i'm there's a real reason i'm telling you this i

Steve: am very honored that uh a gentleman

Steve: has become a friend richard louve who wrote last

Steve: child in the woods and i don't know if you're aware of that book but

Steve: it's a it's a book that i wish at least every parent would

Steve: would read um every school board

Steve: should be mandatory reading um but

Steve: anyhow last child in the woods and and i'm very pleased that richard louve has

Steve: done the forward for this fourth book and um pleased and honored but he's really

Steve: that's What his focus has been is our connection to what we're doing with our children.

Steve: We don't save what we don't love, and we don't love what we don't know.

Steve: And as a former warrior, and I don't say that, you know, flippantly like somebody

Steve: just has a sticker on their pickup truck.

Steve: I've actually been out there and done hard stuff.

Steve: As a former warrior, you know that how you train people to kill other people

Steve: is to take the humanity away from the target.

Steve: And we're taking the reason to care away from nature.

Steve: We're treating it as a thing to be used up and spit out.

Steve: And there's too many of us. There's 8 billion of us and growing.

Steve: And it's going to take care of itself if we don't. Because I was fishing for this book, actually.

Steve: I was fishing the Big Hole River, which has lost, I don't remember the actual

Steve: number, but something like 40% of its trout gone.

Steve: And we're seeing this impact. But here's where I see the hope.

Steve: I think us anglers, I think us people who are part of the outdoor community,

Steve: anglers, ethical hunters, people who are into gardening, all these sort of groups,

Steve: we're the ones that can drive this forward and say no more.

Steve: We're the ones that can say, I'd love to see what Richard Louv has written about,

Steve: that every child is exposed to nature as part of their teaching,

Steve: as part of their learning and growing.

Steve: I mean, everything attaches to it. And if they had that, first of all,

Steve: I think it's going to make their life richer.

Steve: And in this book, I actually have a little thing I say where I wish that every

Steve: child in Gaza and Israel had to go fishing together as a mandatory part of their education.

Steve: Now, that may seem very Pollyanna, and I'm not silly. I know what the real problems are there.

Steve: I was dealing with Islamic jihad up close and personal when I was in my 20s.

Steve: But I do know that I saw how people separate themselves from each other and from nature.

Steve: And as long as you treat all of this as just something to be used,

Steve: then you're not going to care until it's too late.

Steve: I don't know if you saw the thing where howler monkeys are falling out of the

Steve: trees in Yucatan dead from the heat.

Marvin: No, I haven't.

Steve: Yeah. I mean, that's just one of many things I can bring up right now.

Steve: And I want people to pay attention because I don't know about all the anglers

Steve: in the world, but I can tell you I would not be interested in going into an

Steve: ocean or down a river where I knew everything was dead.

Steve: I'm just not interested i wouldn't be interested in

Steve: knowing that it's all been done in a stainless steel

Steve: tank and dumped in there for me to catch like it was a kiddie pool and that's

Steve: the direction i'm afraid we're going to go if we don't pull together and say

Steve: we love this and we want to keep it alive so yeah i'm i'm passionate about it

Steve: there's no doubt about it and and i don't hey Hey,

Steve: like I said, I'm a 63-year-old kid. I don't care if people make fun of me.

Marvin: Yeah, but I think there's even a broader issue there, Steve,

Marvin: is I think it's not consumptive just as it relates to the outdoors.

Marvin: It's consumptive for everything, right?

Steve: I agree. We've been sold that bill of goods.

Marvin: And so everything now is a packaged experience.

Marvin: And so, you know, you look at, I mean, it was interesting. I was actually eating

Marvin: a sandwich in one of the local grocery stores, and I like going there because

Marvin: I talk to the people that work there, right, which is a rare thing.

Marvin: It actually shocks them, almost scares some of them.

Steve: And you know I do the same thing, by the way. You know that about me. Yeah.

Marvin: And so about living in community and all of these things that we've lost where,

Marvin: you know, if you door dash – and I'm not hating on this, and I want to talk

Marvin: about tech too because I think it's a really important adjacent issue.

Marvin: You, I just think we should be mindful because there's such tremendous value

Marvin: at eating dinner at the kitchen table.

Marvin: There's tremendous value in baking cookies with your grandmother and going and

Marvin: cutting down a Christmas tree.

Marvin: And I'm not saying like these are pinnacle experiences, but where everything

Marvin: is just an exchange, we become disconnected.

Steve: Right. I so deeply agree.

Steve: And people may say, well, what does this have to do with fishing?

Steve: It has everything to do with fishing because fishing is like,

Steve: you know, we talk about lessons from the river.

Steve: Standing in a river, everything we ever wanted to know about life, we can learn.

Steve: And it really is, everything is connected and that includes us.

Steve: We're mostly made of, I've written this before, we're made of stardust and water. That's it.

Steve: That can contemplate itself briefly. So yeah, I mentioned to you that I do the same thing.

Steve: I read people's name tags. I call them by first name.

Steve: There's sometimes the only good I can do in the world is to be kind to somebody

Steve: in the grocery store. And something happened.

Steve: So I was just telling my wife that one of the clerks from the grocery store

Steve: here went off to the military in his boot camp right now, just sent me a letter from boot camp.

Steve: And we've only talked when she was checking me out, you know,

Steve: when I'm getting groceries and she's working at the cash register.

Steve: And she just sent me a letter from boot camp.

Steve: We need community.

Steve: We need to treat people differently.

Steve: You know i that we see them and i think we also need to see each other um and we need to see uh,

Steve: again you're i'm getting into my sort of thing but right now

Steve: one part of the things i'm writing in a lot into this fourth book is that all

Steve: living things are living beings that doesn't mean i didn't shoot a kudu in africa

Steve: i did um so um but i was aware of its aliveness do you get what i mean No.

Marvin: No, I do. And I mean, it's, you know, I knew what I did.

Steve: Yeah.

Marvin: And it's, I mean, you knew it, you were in, but you appreciated it, right?

Steve: Yes. And all of that meat was donated to the local Herero tribe and the money

Steve: I paid went to wildlife protection in Namibia.

Steve: And I knew what the practice was of what I was doing, the campfire project to,

Steve: to help, help people have some monetary dog in the hunt of keeping wildlife alive in Africa.

Steve: Oddly enough, by allowing some people to come kill them.

Marvin: Yeah. And it kind of comes a little bit back full circle because it's another

Marvin: thing that I kind of fixate on when I talk to my boys. Like I talk about being

Marvin: the change that you want to see.

Marvin: And then what you find is people are outraged by lack of community,

Marvin: but then when you ask them what they do, they don't do anything.

Marvin: And I'm not saying that in a judgmental way, I'm saying that in an observational way, right?

Marvin: And I find it incredibly powerful to watch that and say, well,

Marvin: you know, if it bothers you so much, you know, what are you going to do?

Marvin: What one thing can you do today, right?

Steve: Right.

Marvin: To make it better. Right. And, you know, and not to go, you know,

Marvin: watch whatever news you want to watch. It's completely your business. I don't care.

Marvin: You know, it's just how does that add to your journey? And it kind of gets us

Marvin: to this technology point.

Marvin: And I preface all of this by saying I love technology, right?

Marvin: You know, when I was 10 years old, 11 years old, we had one TRS-80 in my middle school.

Marvin: We didn't have a hard drive. I don't even think they had hard drives.

Marvin: They didn't pay for floppy disks in the TRS-80, so we would sit at lunch and

Marvin: write computer code. So I love tech, right?

Steve: Yeah, I had an abacus.

Marvin: Well, I would think you're a

Marvin: slide rule guy. I would give you a little bit more credit than an abacus.

Marvin: But I've been asked to give a talk on generative AI with creatives at the Outdoor

Marvin: Writers Association meeting in July.

Marvin: And I think this is a fundamental issue of what it means to be human.

Marvin: And, you know, I generally think about these things as their shovels and their tools.

Marvin: And some of that's generational because I'm – That's what I was going to say.

Marvin: Yeah. I'm a Gen Xer, but I always tell people, like, the shovel is not inherently bad.

Marvin: But if I hit you on the head, I did something bad with the shovel.

Marvin: And I think we need to be incredibly reflective.

Marvin: And this flows back into these lessons from the water because you start to appreciate

Marvin: your humanity while you're there, right?

Steve: Sure.

Marvin: And so do you need, like, AI can be very, very useful. But, like,

Marvin: what is it that you want to allow it to do for you?

Steve: Well, yeah.

Steve: I can't speak much to AI right this moment, but I can say this,

Steve: that first of all, I see it the same way you do as a tool.

Steve: I see everything from a firearm to a fork to a shovel as a tool.

Steve: And what happens to it is an extension of the choices made by the person operating it.

Steve: And with that said, and that's true even if you're standing on the river with someone.

Steve: By the way, one of the greatest things I'd love to do is teach someone and watch

Steve: them experience catching their first fish.

Steve: Um there's a scene in the movie mending the

Steve: line that was actually i'm grateful to say

Steve: taken from me where the main character ike

Steve: he teaches the young man how to

Steve: be grateful to the fish because you know this about me already because we've

Steve: been friends for a while that uh i say thank you to fish when i release it and

Steve: the character says thank you and he teaches the other young marine that and

Steve: that marine then comes up with his own thing and says peace um i think the teaching part,

Steve: so getting back to the technology and technology you and i have become friends

Steve: and i've met some of the best friends of my life through technology i met some

Steve: of the best people of my life i use technology for me to write my books and

Steve: my stories and my essays which i hope help people.

Steve: It's a tool and it can be used for really beautiful things or really ugly things.

Marvin: And I think you can say that again in an observational way where it's not that

Marvin: what you write is the Catholic sense of what's right,

Marvin: not to get the double entendre with right, but it's a posture in the world of

Marvin: generosity and being deliberately generous that I think is so powerful.

Steve: Powerful yeah i wish that our so it used to be when i was a very young person

Steve: in my life that i fell into the idea of do what's right do what's right but

Steve: then i learned i grew up and i learned that a lot of people doing horrible things

Steve: think they're doing the right thing,

Steve: um as i said no one in any foxhole fighting in any war on either side ever thought

Steve: to themselves i I wish I wasn't the bad guy.

Steve: They always think they're doing the right thing. To me, it's more about us having values that are.

Steve: So when you mentioned about where people get their news or which way they vote,

Steve: I don't get into any of that. I don't have to.

Steve: I don't have to knock anybody down because I can raise them up.

Steve: I can simply say, is this person I'm choosing to spend time with kind?

Steve: Are they brave? You know, are they willing to learn? Are they open-minded or

Steve: are they fixed in their ideology?

Steve: As long as I can answer all those questions, then the rest of it takes care of itself.

Steve: And I think we see that too when we're looking at getting back to rivers.

Steve: If we're going to save our rivers, if we're going to save the fish,

Steve: if we're going to save the trees, and they're going fast, we had better break

Steve: that out of our fixed ideas of consumption.

Steve: You know, Edward Abbey said, unlimited growth is the ideology of a cancer cell.

Steve: Sorry, did I wander again?

Marvin: Right? Right. That I think that. And one of the greatest gifts we can share

Marvin: with other people is sharing our time with them and sitting with them in the darkness.

Steve: Yes.

Steve: Yes.

Steve: Absolutely. And in taking and accepting, here again, we'll go back to the lessons from the river.

Steve: You can't say, I'm going to go to the river and it's going to be this way today.

Steve: You go to the river and you have to adapt to how it is. Is it running fast? Is it running low?

Steve: Is it clear? Is it, you know, is it got a lot of silt in it?

Steve: What's going on? And it's the same with humans.

Steve: So I've fished with some wonderful people in my books. And part of what I'm

Steve: writing about is that relationship.

Steve: And there's some people that I, frankly, I love every single person I've fished with.

Steve: But I know I'm going to have a whole different experience depending on who it

Steve: is, and I'll leave names out of this. But I know if I go with one person,

Steve: it's going to be a hard-driving angling experience because that's where they're at.

Steve: They want to get to the river as fast as they can, get on the river,

Steve: in fact, and they're focused on catching fish, catching fish.

Steve: And I'm, well, another person, we're going to sit on the tailgate for a half

Steve: hour and talk before we even start.

Steve: I have my own preference of how I do that, but I can do it both ways.

Steve: And I'm just, I accept them where they're at, just like the river.

Steve: You know, if you want to drive, sure, I'll catch up with you.

Steve: We'll get to the river, we'll fish.

Steve: But slowly, they'll notice me sitting on a rock just watching the river go by

Steve: and see how weird I am that I don't have to be fishing all the time.

Steve: I can have that sandwich on that favorite rock like you and watch the kingfishers

Steve: and be really, really happy.

Steve: I think we teach each other things, not through judgment, but through just doing and being together.

Steve: Does that make sense, as I always say?

Marvin: No, it does. I mean, it really comes back to this idea of being in community, right? Yes.

Marvin: And, you know, I think humans are unfortunately incredibly adept at differentiating.

Marvin: And I think, you know, if you get to focus on all of these things that we have

Marvin: in common, so to, you know, for example, in fishing, we share this love of fly fishing, right? Right.

Marvin: You may be a warrior fly fisherman. You may be a poet fly fisherman.

Marvin: But the question is, you know, where does the common ground from that,

Marvin: your experience on the water and sharing that with other people,

Marvin: you know, how does that inform?

Marvin: Because I think all of these things, right, if you kind of come out of this,

Marvin: they're practices if you see them.

Marvin: You know, they're not only about fly fishing. It's why I say fly fishing is

Marvin: a bicycle. there are modalities and habits that you can bring back to your regular

Marvin: life that make your life better.

Steve: Absolutely. Absolutely. More than anything I know, actually. But absolutely.

Steve: If that's what you're open to. And I think this is just, again, subjective.

Steve: If we address our fly fishing, if we address our interaction with nature,

Steve: then our interaction with each other through that lens, our lives get better and it ripples out.

Steve: And that is also i'm going to bring it back to the

Steve: books in a second my books are written on purpose in a certain

Steve: way they're as you know that

Steve: they're they're full of fishing stories and adventures but that's

Steve: not what they're really about the first one casting forward is in here to texas

Steve: hill country where i'm from and then it goes across america going after native

Steve: fish through all the freshwater waters and then casting seaward that was casting

Steve: onward casting seaward is our oceans from Alaska all the way around and out

Steve: to the Caribbean and back.

Steve: And this last one, casting homeward, I'm traveling backwards in time from the

Steve: furthest reaches of Alaska all the way to New York City.

Steve: And by backwards in time, what I mean is I'm going backwards from the movement

Steve: of Euro-Americans as they spread across this country and interacted in often

Steve: not great ways with indigenous Americans.

Steve: Americans. And the next one I'll be doing without getting any details is going

Steve: to be looking at it very internationally.

Steve: Once we get outside the borders, once we get outside our hemisphere,

Steve: there's so much we find out we have in common.

Steve: So I could spend some time with my hard driving fishing friends and I realized,

Steve: oh, okay, I see what it is.

Steve: Where you live, you have to get to the river in a hurry because there's so many

Steve: anglers here. You're not going to get a spot.

Steve: I have to, you know, have some empathy and find out where they're at.

Steve: And I also have to remember that maybe when I was younger, maybe when I was

Steve: their age, I had to have been more hard-dragging.

Steve: Um, I'm at that place now where, you know, Bob White and I were up in Alaska

Steve: and on our last day, we decided to fish for a half day and then go into the

Steve: lodge together while everybody else was fishing.

Steve: And Bob painted while I wrote the book, you know, that was really cool for me,

Steve: but a lot of guys would never do that. I'm not going to waste a half day of fishing.

Steve: Um, but we both will be each other and said, we've caught all the fish we need

Steve: to in our life. Let's go, let's go paint and write.

Steve: So we're just in different places.

Marvin: Yeah, it's interesting, too. I mean, it's not just fly fishing.

Marvin: I mean, a lot of stuff in nature, you know, if you can leave a little bit of the technology behind.

Marvin: I mean, I literally started going to Montana because my BlackBerry didn't work there, right?

Steve: That was a long time ago, if you're saying BlackBerry.

Marvin: Yeah, and also, too, you know, it was kind of an exotic place.

Marvin: It's less exotic than it used to be. And so, you know, it was kind of like telling

Marvin: people at work that you were going to the moon. People were like,

Marvin: gosh, we can't get him. He's in Montana.

Marvin: Um, but it's this, it's, it's, it's fun. It's funny, but true.

Marvin: I mean, you know, and so, uh, I love it.

Steve: I, I, I used to have these high speed jobs where I made real money and they

Steve: would say to me, well, how do we get you?

Steve: And I say, you don't, they would always say that to me. How do, how do we reach you?

Steve: I said, you don't, I'm going to be on an Island or I'm going to be in the mountains.

Marvin: Yeah. It's, it's an interesting thing too, right? Where they don't want to pay

Marvin: you like you're irreplaceable, but then when you want to leave for a week, God forbid.

Marvin: You have to be tethered with an umbilical cord.

Steve: It's a uniquely American thing too, I'd have to say, as having lived different

Steve: parts of the world. Only in America have I seen where we are,

Steve: taught that our job is to do our job and you know when the economy is going

Steve: down the message everybody gets is spend more money spend more money bring the

Steve: economy up spend buy more stuff,

Steve: and then when you don't have enough room for that stuff you can always rent

Steve: space to hold your stuff that you don't use so uh this is getting off of fly

Steve: fishing but i'm trying to get well a little bit i'm trying to make sure that

Steve: my fly fishing quiver of rods and reels is exactly just what I need and nothing else.

Steve: And I'm donating the rest of the ones I have to good causes like Project Healing Waters.

Steve: And I am getting in my home down to the minimalist stuff of just what I need,

Steve: just the pots and pans and dishes and things that I need and want and the rest

Steve: of it. I am giving way to be repurposed.

Steve: It's so freeing.

Marvin: And you've already done that with your library, right?

Steve: Oh, yes. I gave away to the local library here

Steve: in my little town in texas uh four pickup

Steve: truck loads of books um and

Steve: they have what they didn't keep for

Steve: the library they sell it and make money for the library and

Steve: um yep so i've given away almost all of my books i have a very small collection

Steve: of books that i will not let go of and i read them again and again so uh when

Steve: i told bob white this he said to me i'm kind of interested in seeing which ones you kept yeah i.

Marvin: Would say a related question you know i think people are going to want to know

Marvin: you know what fly rods does the texan buddha think are critical to keep what do you have.

Steve: Well for me it's

Steve: weight um rather than getting into now i

Steve: have to say that almost it just so happens that so if

Steve: i talk to another one of my friends he's he's gonna say oh

Steve: i only use hardy and miller and tony use sage and all

Steve: that but i i most of my stuff is orbit surface um and um but when i talk about

Steve: the rods that i hold on to first of all i love glass but i also have graphite

Steve: and i have one beautiful bamboo rod that was made for me uh by jerry gustage and,

Steve: at sweet crop sweet grass rods so

Steve: um but at any rate uh for

Steve: me i like having in my quiver i

Steve: like having a three and a four because i love using light rods

Steve: in in high mountain streams or you

Steve: know and for smaller fish i i always am

Steve: going to have a five an eight uh and a ten so to me that covers things i have

Steve: a five eight and ten then and then i usually have multiple spools so like on

Steve: my eight weight i'm gonna have i have one it's a tropical floating line i'm

Steve: gonna have one that's It's an intermediate syncing line.

Steve: They have one that's really good for sheriff and going in deep. And that's what I do.

Steve: It's what do I want to achieve? It's not about how many things can I have. It's what tool...

Steve: Is going to get me where i need to be and to

Steve: do the to have the experience that i need that i

Steve: want to have so people have asked me well how how do you travel

Steve: all these places it's not because i have money it's

Steve: because i redirect what little i have so um to in order to do casting onward

Steve: i had to sell a lot of my firearms from my hunting life almost all of them actually

Steve: to help pay for airfare and things like that and we put our priorities where

Steve: we want them And for me, it's not about things, it's about experiences.

Steve: So yes, to me, if I have a three, a five, an eight, and a 10,

Steve: I'm pretty much covered for everything I want to do.

Marvin: Yeah, it's interesting. It's a, you know, this theme again of being deliberate, right?

Marvin: And, you know, I'm sort of the same way. And it's kind of funny,

Marvin: because I mean, I remember looking up at one point, and I was like,

Marvin: gosh, you know, I'm making all this money to spend all this money to make all

Marvin: this money to do something that doesn't fulfill me.

Marvin: And so you kind of jettison that and you know

Marvin: part of it too is i always tell people like i'm a generation x kid

Marvin: i grew up in the 70s like we're going to be fine right you

Marvin: know just a completely different thing where like you don't eat out every meal

Marvin: um you know you know you actually repair stuff which is kind of a mind-blowing

Marvin: thing to people uh right but you know it's an i don't know and i say this again

Marvin: it's just an observation it's just where i am in my journey I don't care what

Marvin: other people do. I'm not judging them.

Marvin: This works for me, right? Like I will always trade more rustic accommodations

Marvin: for more days on the water.

Steve: Yeah, I wish I could say that's true for me. I actually confessed up in this

Steve: fourth book that there was a time when I was a true wild man.

Steve: There was a time when I was quite happy that I could go out into the wilderness

Steve: and I did this all the time. Sometimes I did crazy things where I was making

Steve: a lean-to, because I chopped my own wood and built a lean-to and tie it together.

Steve: And I actually remember doing this in South Florida where I would cover it in

Steve: palm fronds, and that would be my shelter and sleep on the ground.

Steve: And those days are gone.

Steve: And I have to admit that while I will do those things, I have definitely really

Steve: enjoyed stepping out of a float plane and having someone hand me a glass of wine.

Steve: So judge me if you will. Like I said, things are a little more creaky than they used to be.

Steve: And I'm out there all day long and I'm fishing and I'm climbing and I'm doing all that stuff.

Steve: But it is sure cool to have a nice shower and glass of water today. So I'll fess up.

Marvin: Yeah, as long as it doesn't get in the way of the fishing, I think I can approve.

Steve: Sure, that's it. I'm not saying I'm skipping the fishing. I'm saying that,

Steve: you know, given the chance between the lean-to now, and when I was young,

Steve: that seemed all really cool.

Steve: But now I've got that kind of been there, done that. Yeah, I had the bears walk in on me.

Steve: Woke up once with the snake in my sleeping bag with me.

Steve: I've done it. I don't need to keep doing it. I have nothing to prove.

Steve: So, yeah, I'll put mosquito net on my head. That's okay. okay,

Steve: I was with my buddy Bob one time. We're on the St. Croix River.

Steve: He handed me this mosquito suit to put on while I was going to stay with the

Steve: boat while him and Lisa went to set up the vehicles.

Steve: And I said, oh, I won't need that. He just put it on.

Steve: Oh, my gosh. I was completely covered within seconds in mosquitoes.

Steve: I have no problem putting on the mosquito suits, what I'm telling you.

Marvin: Duly noted. And, you know, as we before we get back to kind of upcoming travel

Marvin: and book details and things like that, Steve, is there anything else that you

Marvin: can think of we should talk about in terms of lessons from the river?

Steve: Well, I guess the number one thing I'm going to share is that what keeps me

Steve: going is that I never stop learning.

Steve: And that's what's really cool about Lessons from the River, because we're always

Steve: changing. I hope we are. If we stop changing, we stop growing.

Steve: That's why I'm really against the idea of a fixed ideology of any kind,

Steve: because it means you're not growing anymore.

Steve: And I have a lot of younger friends, and I thought about, well, why is that?

Steve: And I thought, too many people my age have given up learning.

Steve: They're not learning anymore. They're not growing.

Steve: So I know that I don't know much of anything.

Steve: And I've changed my mind a lot because I've learned new information.

Steve: I think lessons of the river are eternal.

Steve: They keep coming. And as long as I keep saying we pay attention and we ask ourselves

Steve: honestly, how did I handle that?

Steve: And forgive yourself when you don't handle it well. So I think that's the thing.

Steve: We can never stop learning just by stepping out there and paying attention.

Steve: And life for me, because you know my brain works weird, I think in poetry and metaphor.

Steve: So I'm constantly learning.

Steve: And when I make a mistake, I laugh about it. Usually write it into the book

Steve: how I screw it up and move on.

Steve: Nothing and no one has any power over us unless we give it to them.

Steve: And so i'm not afraid to make mistakes i want to learn yeah.

Marvin: It's interesting you know it makes me think too steve like one of the things

Marvin: that attracts me to fly fishing is it's not consistently solvable right.

Steve: No and.

Marvin: That's one of the allures because i think if you know i quote figured it out

Marvin: it would have bored me ages ago and i.

Steve: Would have maybe.

Marvin: Become a golfer god forbid.

Steve: Been in that yeah i i would still take you as you as you came but i just we

Steve: wouldn't have as much to talk about because uh i grew up around golf courses

Steve: part of my life and i was constantly being chased off of them because you know

Steve: what i was doing that golf thing i was fishing in ponds,

Steve: uh illegally it was chasing me out of their ponds uh yeah so anyway i love our

Steve: conversation that I really appreciate that you've shared this time with me.

Marvin: Oh, it's been tremendous fun. And I know you've got some speaking engagements.

Marvin: I know you said just locally, but you've got some travel coming up too.

Steve: I do um i have some great travel coming up i'll be spending some time down in patagonia,

Steve: uh in various parts of patagonia if it all comes together i'll be in both northern

Steve: and southern patagonia and argentina and then various areas around argentina

Steve: and piranha river going after golden dorado and a few other undisclosed places

Steve: and i'll be spending some time I'm in Peche, Mexico soon,

Steve: going after tarpon.

Steve: But you know what I'm really going after, of course, is lessons from the river and the ocean.

Steve: So, yes, I've got some good travel coming up.

Steve: I'm also going to be going out to Portugal.

Steve: And all these things are going to connect into me sharing with those people

Steve: who I so deeply appreciate that read my work.

Steve: That I'll be sharing these stories with them and the lessons that I learned

Steve: along the way. That's what I do.

Steve: I learn new things and I say, here, this is for you. Take it.

Steve: You're never going to learn a fancy way to cast from me or a special new knot,

Steve: but you're going to learn a whole lot of ways to attach better things to your

Steve: life and let go of others.

Marvin: Yeah. And I will drop a link. I know that Amazon and I imagine other,

Marvin: like Barnes & Nobles and others, There's had the presale links up for your last

Marvin: in the casting series, which I guess you told me was going to come out officially

Marvin: on Labor Day weekend. Is that right?

Steve: It's September 3rd. It's on preorder now. I'm grateful to say that it's been

Steve: doing well in preorder right now.

Steve: And the reason I care about that, by the way, is you know I don't do this because

Steve: you don't become a writer for money.

Steve: So it's because I want people to read these stories. I want people to get something out of it.

Steve: It makes me so happy to get letters from people saying, I just love this book

Steve: or I love this essay in Fly Fisherman. It really helped me.

Steve: So, yeah, it comes out the third. It is available on all major booksellers like Amazon.

Steve: It's probably one of the easiest ones, Barnes & Noble, Books A Million, Indie Books.

Steve: But I also want to share that if they want a signed copy, the way to get signed

Steve: copies is through my friend BobWhiteStudio.com.

Steve: Um, he is taking pre-orders for signed copies and that's the only place I do

Steve: currently sell signed copies through.

Marvin: I got it. And do you have any, do you have any promotion in the schedule?

Marvin: Uh, or is it a little early yet?

Steve: Oh, right now, the only things I've got coming up are pretty local here,

Steve: so I don't know how much it'd matter to your listeners rather than me traveling

Steve: around the country because if I do, it's because I'm traveling for other reasons

Steve: and I'm able to do those things.

Steve: But they can always look on my website, stevebromeroesauthor.com,

Steve: and whenever I have something like I'm traveling to Arizona or Colorado or wherever

Steve: and I'm going to be at a local bookstore or something, I always post it up there. Yeah.

Marvin: And I will drop all that stuff in the show notes. And I also know that you are

Marvin: active-ish on Instagram and I'm probably more active on Facebook, right?

Steve: Right. Both. Instagram is Steve Ramirez, author.

Steve: And same thing with Facebook, Steve Ramirez, author. And you're welcome to connect

Steve: with me on that, as long as you're a real person and a nice person.

Steve: Um and uh so and i i write on both of them and keep people connected with me

Steve: but also the reason you mentioned facebook is because that's where i actually

Steve: write some little mini essays that people seem to like and i just put them put them up there yeah.

Marvin: And uh when you were talking about why um book sales were important to you that's

Marvin: the topic for our next conversation we'll uh We'll spend an hour or so talking

Marvin: about the intersection of commerce and art. Beautiful.

Marvin: Well, Steve, I super appreciate you carving a little bit of time this evening

Marvin: out and spending it with me.

Steve: My pleasure. Absolutely my pleasure. Thank you. I look forward to it, and I really enjoyed it.

Marvin: Take care.

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