We’re joined by successful entrepreneur, Thomas Coles, discussing how, and when to ask for referrals for developing your business. 82% of potential clients prefer seeking recommendations from their network over online searches. We talk psychological barriers, building trusted relationship with your network, and the impact this can have in creating opportunities. Who knows what opportunities currently lie in your network.

Hello, and welcome to the Growth Workshop Podcast with

your host today, Matt Best and Jonny Adams. We're joined today

by the fantastic Thomas Coles. And we're really, really looking

forward to exploring how Thomas has been successful

entrepreneur, developing and growing businesses over his

illustrious career. But as is customary on the Growth Workshop

Podcast, Thomas, I'd like just to welcome you with our first

question, which is, tell us what's been interesting in your

week, this week, what's gone on that you can share with our

listeners to get everyone excited at the start of today's

podcast?

Hello both of you. Hello, everybody. And thank you

for the introduction. The best thing that's happened in my week

has probably been how busy they've been starting from

before eight o'clock Monday morning, getting an order from a

new customer, right the way through the week, it has been

fantastic.

Brilliant and incredibly productive, which is

fantastic. Thank you. And Jonny, what about you? You always have

a normally an interesting story to share with, uh, with us at

the start of this podcast.

Oh, Matt, you've set the standards high there. So

a personal sort of achievement achieved the management,

consultancy chartered status, which puts me in the top 1000

management consultants in the UK, it effectively means that as

a business and as an individual running programs with our

clients, I uphold certain standards and ethics when

delivering transformation projects. So that was a really

sort of personal achievement over to Matt, what's going on in

your world?

I think in my week, this week has been a chance I

came off the back of a really a really busy week last week,

actually. And Thomas much saw yourself lots and lots of

meetings, really effective, great conversations. And we all

know that in business development and sales, the week

that follows that is a week of follow ups. And that's really

what what this week has been about. But it's, it's really

great being able to reflect on those fantastic conversations

with clients and prospects. And if we think about our listeners

to this podcast, and their own sort of focus on growth, just a

little reminder of all of that hardware that you put in what

comes out, and maybe some of our listeners will have shared your

pre 8am contract signatures, solid switches, which is always

a nice way to start the week.

Let's hope so.

Wonderful. Well, it's always you're a serial

entrepreneur, right? You've got vast experience in developing

and growing businesses. So tell us what's your biggest success?

There's been all sorts of amazing teams that I've

worked with over the years. But probably if I had to choose one

thing, I would say, selling one businesses and 82 times return

that has to stand out as allied.

Wow, yes. Why are you still working?

People do ask that question. I would say divorce is

expensive. And my daughter wants to be a doctor. So I've got at

least another nine years in me.

Just being married for one year, Thomas, I'm taking

notes. So thank you very much for that.

So eighty two times return flipping businesses is,

you know, clearly sets you out. As someone who knows who knows

very well, what they're doing. We'd love to know, what are the

three things that have helped you in being so successful with

that business, but also with the other businesses that you've

worked with and achieved growth for?

There are three really clear, easy answers to

that question. Firstly, the most successful way of generating new

revenue, and therefore growing businesses has always been using

referrals. The second thing that I have to highlight in terms of

total revenue coming from growth has to be around account

management, looking after customers, growing the

relationships with customers and retaining them, that one was my

business's biggest one had an average customer lifecycle of

over 10 years, that's quite special. And then I think you

probably wouldn't be surprised to hear the third way of

generating new business. And therefore being successful is

through what we call code saving, that is following

customers as they change jobs. If they've been happy, they can

be a happy customer.

Again Thomas, it's great to have those sort of

three key areas. And we'd love to dig into each of those. And

I'm paying particular attention to number one and referrals. But

just before we do that account management is something very

close to my heart and, and my experience in customer success

and running account management teams. And I think it's such a

can sometimes be such an under appreciated side of the

business, I was having a conversation with the CS leader

just the other day, and we were talking about the volume of

business and the cost of losing business is so seldom seen as a

source of risk and all that focus gets put on to sales and

acquiring new logos. And then you turn around and if half your

customer base is gone, you've undone all of that good work. So

it's such a I think, just wanted to share my view and my

perspective there as someone that you I think account

management is so so key especially in in services

businesses where you've got ongoing commitments and sewers,

you know, in modern SAS, of course, and 10 years is quite

something I mean, you must go through a number, a number of

key stakeholders in that time. So it just demonstrates that

good account managers really are are really impactful and

effective in one's business.

People talking about means winning deals teams

also keep customers happy is not down to one account manager is

down to a whole multitude of different roles, both on the

client side and the supplier side. Therefore, having the

opportunity to make sure there is continuity when one

stakeholder leaves, I always thought that the best thing that

can happen is that a happy customer leaves because you keep

the happy customer organization, and they become a prospect in

their new job.

Leading nicely into your third point of

coattailling. Right, and the importance of maintaining those

strong relationships, and then following them around the

industry.

I tell a story about one insurance client, I

won back in the year 2000. And by the time we'd finish that

relationship with that one organization 16 years later, and

that was due to an acquisition of them. We had generated, I

think 25 million of revenue from referrals. Coattailing and that

customer relationship.

I mean, that's incredible, right? I mean, have

you set that goal for various sales professionals just on

their own?

I can still tell you what we paid for the Pay Per

Click, Google lead, turned into that relation ship? 880 pounds.

That's some ROI. That's awesome. Yeah, that is

that's very cool. And I think thinking about that, Thomas, and

you mentioned there that essentially that person becoming

an extension of your sales team, right. And as, as referrals as a

tool, or a thing that helps achieve this growth is exactly

that. It's extending your sales organization out through your

trusted relationships and the partnerships that you have with

clients who really advocate for you in the market and advocate

for the product. So I mean, tell us a little bit more maybe I

start with a sort of fairly simple question. There might be

some people on there listening to the podcast today thinking,

What does referrals really mean? What is what is referrals? So

how would you define referrals? What does it mean?

Let me illustrate it with going to the there's

some research from Texas Tech uni, which I think will really

illustrate the point 83% of most companies satisfied customers

are willing to recommend them. But only 29% of those people do

without being asked. In other words, asking for a referral is

exploiting the 54%.

Yeah, no, just I just think it's fascinating

hearing those statistics. And how did you stumble across that

statistic? Thomas? Was there some sort of a trigger that you

that made you look for that piece of information to sort of

maybe prove a business case or a proof point?

A great question, there is lots and lots of

passion, in lots of people for lots of different topics. I

really dislike the word passion, because too many people overuse

it these days, if you would push me, I would say my passion in

business is asking for referrals. Therefore, I'm

constantly looking for new techniques, new tweaks, new ways

that they can be used, for example, you don't just have to

use them to generate new business. You can use them to

generate new relationships inside an existing customer. You

can use them for hiring, looking for new candidates.

And when you said passion to me, I was listening

intently thinking how does passion fit within that, and I

understand, sometimes we hear the word curiosity, as well,

you're curious about this topic, it creates interest for you as

an individual, you've probably seen some benefit as well.

I'm going to be seen as an expert on this topic.

And certainly people who I've worked with get huge, you know,

significant upside in terms of lead gen as a result, then I do

need to understand the nuances walk and work and how

relationships change how culture changes across the world.

There's all nuances we need to be aware of.

Yeah, is really interesting. Last point, you

mentioned about culture. What if by the end of the conversation,

we could probably dig a little bit deeper on that I was with a

client on Tuesday this week. And we had a very eclectic best mix

of individuals across geography. And we debated a lot about

cultural alignment, whether it works in different cultures and

how that works. And we had behavioral scientists in the

room that were helping shape the thought process, how humans

work. So interesting how that cultural piece can affect

referrals as well. So back to you, Matt.

Johnny, addressing your point around the

international challenge that referrals could present. I

simply have one piece of advice, which is very straightforward.

And actually, it can apply to almost any situation. Some

people talk to me and they say they're a bit worried about

asking for referrals that you could come across as being needy

or desperate. You had some negative sentiment like that. I

always tell them the best thing you can do. And this works

internationally to overcome the cultural challenge is to tell

anybody you talk to that you run your business using referrals.

As soon as they understand that it doesn't matter how often you

ask them. It doesn't matter how you go about asking. They'll be

more surprised if you don't ask than if you do. And that works

out so far. It worked in any culture. From the United States

to Japan. You and everywhere in between.

It is interesting, you reference that point. And

just on the reference of culture, I think the important

part that you reference there is that you're signaling your

intent, and you're a signaling your direction, and therefore

that is globally known. The other thing that is interesting,

and we learned this week from the behavioral scientists was

around the split the world into sort of three core areas, you

can look at it as sort of an Asia area, North America and a

European area, there is a distinct difference around how

people work together in business across Asia and America. The

fact that friendships, liking of your friends is seen as a much

stronger driver towards business in Asia, versus actually

America, you first of all see people as professionals, and

then friends. So I wonder how referrals play into that whether

people are sharing referrals amongst the friendship group,

first and foremost in Asia, and then probably in the

professional group in North America. I just think it's an

interesting approach.

Well, I'll respond to that by saying, firstly, I

don't actually see any difference in the results you

get across cultures. Therefore, I guess I'm saying Don't worry

about it, I'd probably add that what we are doing by asking for

referrals is effectively extending our network. If you're

only asking for referrals from friends, you're therefore rather

limiting your ability to extend your network.

It's such an interesting point. And I think

this, Thomas, I love your recommendation to the listeners

around, it sort of doesn't almost doesn't matter. But if

you signpost that point, it's part of how you win business, I

can think just now off the top of my head, I've got three or

four clients who I know who have told me that probably not in

such a direct way. And I wonder if that is just a just an

extension of that bit of advice that says, being really, really

clear about what that means for you. You know, rather than

saying something, oh, yeah, well, I get quite a lot of my

business from past customers. But being really, really

explicit about that is the primary source of business for

my business or growth. My business growth is through

referrals. Just really, putting that statement out there sets

out sets out that scene. And as I said, I mean, there's a

there's a half an easy half a dozen businesses that that I've

been working with who I would say could say that, and it would

be you know, the reality for them?

I think, given what I do, I have to say it, but

everybody should be not only saying it but truly believing

it. Why would you not be using this rich source of the

relationships you've already got in order to find new ones?

And that's exactly what we should be tackling today

is that question that you asked, which is the why and there's so

many obstacles that people face, which I know we're going to have

to tackle today in this conversation to get your advice

and expertise. Thomas, I think I think it's important that we

talk a little bit more about going into a little bit more

about these referrals and some examples. And then let's tackle

that topic of, I think we're all building a business case here,

which is great that they work. And I'm sure we could pull in

loads of examples. It's just why do people not do it, which I'm

really interested intrigued about tackling throughout

today's conversation.

We need to address the fact that 82% of people who

are looking to procure something new looking for a new vendor,

who never get as far as doing a Google search when they're

looking for a new vendor, because they ask their network

and never get any further. So if you don't use referrals, you're

only targeting 18% of the available budget.

There is a prime example of success that we've

found, where through driving using intimacy with another

organization that we've worked with for seven years. The story

behind it to your point that Thomas is this individual that

we've built a strong relationship with, we actually

actually never procured from SBR. So never actually bought

our services. But we built and formed a strong relationship. So

they saw as a trusted adviser, another client that we've

recently won a net new logo, a large global program that's

going to go across three core regions 150 sales professionals

to revolutionize the way that they deliver consultative

selling. And that came from an individual messaging out to her

peers saying Do you know any business that is interested in

sales transformation? Interestingly, nine months

before I'd asked that individual that that sheds her SBR Have you

got any anyone in your network that might be valuable for us to

talk to asking specifically for referrals? So to your point,

that individual never went on the internet to look, they

actually had asked their network? Who would you

recommend? So that element of asking for referrals, and then

being at that business at the front of the PICU, I'm sure was

something that you're alluding to that.

And maybe Johnny, I'll just add, add another light

bulb that's just gone on for me here. Thomas Ajani just around

when I think about this is, this is almost an opportunity as well

to get things earlier in the buying cycle, because you're a

big part of those preliminary conversations are had in a sort

of safer space. Those who are going to kind of internet

search, maybe have done a little bit more thinking whereas

someone who's sat there thinking, well, maybe I need

this. Hey, I'll just ask you a couple of my mates in the

market. I just asked a couple of my mates, you know, even a

couple of my mates down the pub who I know work in a similar

industry. What have you done to fix this? Do you have this

problem? Oh, yeah, I do, you should go and speak to x, y, and

Zed. And I guess that's a big part of it as well. Thomas right

in terms of getting in, or, or opening doors earlier in the

conversation as a result of being somebody who then becomes

who's given that opportunity to take that real consultative

approach towards helping a customer see where procuring a

service, whatever that might be, is going to help them in driving

their business forward.

Yeah, you're absolutely right, Matt, I would

characterize it as being there at the right time to help to

shape their thinking. So if you think about the way you might

personally consider buying a car, you probably use the

internet to research what model you want to research colors,

that sort of stuff. But then when it gets to the point where

you're actively going to go and find a dealer who would suit you

probably asked friends, you know, what good experiences have

you had? What dealers would they recommend? Rather than asking

for reviews on the Internet? I often ask delegates who I'm

working with in order to help them develop their referrals

technique. When was the last time they asked for a referral?

When was the last time they gave a referral because these things

should definitely be reciprocal. SBR talking about giving to get

and the vast majority of people talk about fact that they

routinely have asked for referrals and given referrals in

their personal life, but they often have not been using it

systematically in their professional lives.

Yeah, tell us what's your perspective on why that is?

It's a difficult question to answer. My

experience is that far too many businesses are and far too many

individuals in businesses are embarrassed of asking for

referrals, which is why I talk about that mindset shift,

needing to say, look, I run my business on referrals,

therefore, it stops being embarrassing, and starts

becoming just an absolutely routine thing. It needs to

become a habit, people have to get into the habit of asking for

referrals at every opportunity. Whereas quite often here are

people who think they do need to be asking for referrals,

realizing too late that five minutes after they left the

meeting, rather than during the meeting.

Why do you think that might be the case? Because I

mean, again, going back to that sort of personal versus

business? And yeah, I guess is that is the difference here that

we're asking for a referral to procure services more often in

our personal life than perhaps to sell services? Yeah, I

wouldn't necessarily see a friend in the pub and say, you

should buy these trainers. In fact, anyone who knows me will,

will the test the fact that I do actually do that, which is

probably a bad example.

But I'd never buy your trainers by the way. So

yeah. Not interested.

Yeah. What's your take on that, and this gets us

Thomas, I think into some more of the sort of practicalities of

how to start to generate the sort of referrals and to develop

those critical habits.

I think your point around the difference between

personal life and professional life is largely that you would

only ever asked a friend when you're looking for a new

supplier of something. And therefore you've got a trusted

relationship with them trusting relationship with them. Whereas

in professional life, not every individual working in an

organization is going to say that they trust the people in

their client or vice versa. That's the bit that you need to

overcome the mindset that you'd need to overcome. As long as you

have a professional and some level of trusting relationship,

then you can be asking many people that you come across and

should be asking many people that you come across whether

they can make any effect recommendations for you, but

therefore give you a referral.

So you know, one of the things is the trust

equation, and you talk about trust there. And when we think

about the trust equation, we've got trustworthiness equals

credibility plus reliability plus intimacy, divided by self

orientation. And I wonder when we're thinking about trust that

which will drive referrals. So I agree with you, you need to have

a trusted relationship with someone to feel like one they

can refer you to others, and to you're comfortable to refer

them. What area of that trust equation do you think's

important to really index on when using referrals? Or talking

about trust?

I characterize it slightly differently that Johnny

and I completely appreciate the point you're making about the

equation. When I use the word Trust. I mean, perhaps respect,

is there sufficient respect in the relationship in a

professional relationship between two people who don't

work for the same company, that they are therefore willing to

help each other out? That maybe that's a better word wishing and

trust.

That's important to reference. If we're looking at

Trust, the reason why I anchor back towards the trust equation,

just to talk about that is that I had a really good conversation

with founder this week, and we're a partner of theirs.

They're a partner of ours and we're looking to win a

collective deal together. There needs to be trust there, but

there needs to be trust to refer one another to each business.

And I wonder if we look at the top three areas credibility,

reliability and intimacy I think everyone that's being referred

or you're willing to refer someone else, there must be some

element of credibility in that relationship, you must have some

type of possible brand equity or there must be some type of

proven experience in the past that you could demonstrate

possible outcome. Or at the simplest form, if you meet them

at a networking event, as long as you're showing credibility

around what you deliver. I think the other thing is reliability,

having that consistency to always be on time, be punctual

and be consistent in the relationship you've got with

that person. And the final one is intimacy. I don't know about

you guys, but building and forming that relationship that

goes a little bit deeper than just surface level questions and

thinking about those questions. So I think to answer one of the

questions that we've sort of alluded to, which is, why do

people not do referrals, which is what we're getting to, I

wonder if the trust equation is something that we could as

professionals anchor against, and those three areas that might

be valuable?

Good point. So I was thinking, as you were

talking through that journey, that may be I was using respect

as a synonym for credibility, in order to have credibility, there

must be respect, and you can't get respect without seeing some

credibility demonstrated.

Perfect. Yeah. And I think maybe we gravitate more

towards those trusted relationships. I guess that's

that point that you're making there, Johnny, is that when you

do have a trusted relationship, it gets easier and easier to ask

for referrals. And maybe Thomas, there's that sort of the next

layer out from that is, is and you're talking about the minimum

requirement in order to ask for a referral. And having that

credibility. Clearly, we'd love to know those trusted

relationships are ones that are more comfortable, and where it's

easier to ask for a referral. But if we step outside of that

comfort zone, then looking at how we're demonstrating the

credibility that we've got, and I know Thomas from conversations

that that we've had before you, you share an example of how you

would, how you would teach this to to clients and, and using the

using the conference speech analogy, I wonder if it might be

useful to share that with our listeners today, just to show, I

guess the the other end of that extreme.

Yeah, the conference is probably a

situation, if you're a speaker on stage at a conference,

probably a situation where many people listening would feel

deeply uncomfortable. Anyway, I push them even further, I would

say that the best thing you can do, when you are given the

opportunity of speaking to an audience on stage, is to ask for

a referral whilst you're up there, you probably have to

gamify it in order to get several referrals, there's

probably got to be some sort of reward for one or more of the

people who come back to you. But where I've persuaded clients to

do it, they've had amazing success. It requires real guts.

So Thomas, how does that work?

In practice, I would say if you're on stage,

people are probably listening to you unless you've been really

tedious up to that point in the speech. Therefore, you probably

need to use humor, in order to just use humor to sort of defend

yourself. Rather than saying, I run my business on referrals,

when you're on stage more likely make a joke and fail. I thought

I'd take the opportunity. Whilst you're all listening to me. Do

it as simple as that tone of voice bit of humor, then go in

with a question. I would like to be introduced to anyone you

know, who does this.

So Thomas, you know, clearly that there's there's

probably a lot of people listening to this thinking, Oh,

my gosh, well, not only do I maybe not get that many

opportunities to stand up on the stage. But also, I feel like I

have to take some smaller steps first. And clearly. That's what

you're trying to encourage them how you're trying to encourage

them to think by demonstrating quite how how any situation it's

possible to ask for referral. But what are you what are you

trying to steer them towards? Is there a particular point that

sits between standing on stage in front of 500 people and

asking your friend for a referral? Like what would you

say is that sweet spot?

I'm going to be slightly facetious. I suspect in

replying to that question, Matt, every conversation you have is a

potential opportunity to ask for a referral. Let me give you

another example where people might feel uncomfortable. When

you're off to a conference or event. There are loads of people

at that event who you've never met before. Therefore, by

definition, you do not have that trusting, respectful

relationship with you don't have any credibility. But even in

those circumstances, you can ask strangers for a referral. And

you will get a remarkably high hit rate, just in the sense of

receiving the right names, the right sorts of names from those

strangers, because in many cases, those people who you've

never met before are just grateful for having conversation

with you. They're in a room full of strangers to and therefore

human nature is that they will be grateful to you for

initiating a conversation, and therefore they'll try to help

you.

I'm in that networking event. Now. You've

just put your teleported me in there, and I can feel myself and

what I hear is asked for a referral. I don't feel

comfortable when saying, hey, you know, I'm talking about

other people here. I still don't feel comfortable and going so

can I you know, can I have a referral? Is there a technique

that you recommend that you could use to soften that? Can I

have a referral? Is there any sort of advice Thomas, you've

got in that environment of a network. And thanks, I think

most people would go to a networking event rather than

possibly being on stage. So maybe that's the environment we

could tackle.

I would say you have to go to those sorts of

networking events and seek out to the people who are feeling

nervous and maybe not managed to enter into conversations, then

actively approach them, the technique that you need is to

find out about them. First, we in SBR, talk about being

interested as opposed to interesting. So find out what

they are, therefore, first find out about their business, their

background, which gives you the opportunity to show interest in

them, which is a good thing anyway, before you ask for a

referral. But it also gives you the opportunity to customize the

question you asked when you seek a referral to the sort of

network that they're going to have having listened to who they

are.

And just to continue, where we have worked

with a number of behavioral scientists. And I'm a firm

believer that to manage my own mindset, I use science, you

know, material information that's proven by research to put

myself in the right mindset. And one thing I do know is that when

we ask for advice, not help of human beings, people are more

willing to provide advice and the knowledge we are inherently

there to help as human beings, which I found really

interesting. And equally, when we asked for advice. The person

who is asking for the advice to the to the individual feels like

we're actually taking something away from them. So that's why we

don't ask for referrals a lot of time because we think that

there's a economic reduction in that other individual. But

actually, in fact, the person who's receiving the request for

advice or a referral actually sees that there is a social

obligation to respond, which is, again, really interesting. So

what some of those other tips that you could share with the

listeners that would sort of make people sort of stand up and

go, right, I'm going to ask for some advice or some referrals.

So I actually don't use the word advice, just

because in English grammar, it's like people could, I talked

about guidance, but you can absolutely tackle the same point

you're making Johnny is simply about the semantics. And so that

I would go through giving the person who I'm talking to

whether I know them or not bit of a pat on the back, them some

organizations talking about giving them a stroke, an ego

boost. In other words, I'd really appreciate your guidance

on who you think I should be working with next. And then you

can go in which we're asking for the referral. I've seen the word

guidance work better than advice in that particular context.

I think something that that highlights me there,

Thomas, as well as in a couple of things that you've shared,

that I just want to sort of pull out is asking an understanding

about somebody else's situation first is what's going to help us

in building that credibility in the conversation is gonna, what

it's gonna be what helps us in building rapport and the

conversation, because I think a big part of it is, you know, I

don't know when we would never sort of advocate for so just

hurry up and shaking someone's hand saying, right, tell me who

have you got in your network, you think you wrote refer me to,

these are the things that I do? Let's see how we can help one

another out, right? By reminding ourselves that actually, we

still need to stay, we still need to be interested in them

not interesting. And we still need to start with questions and

start with building an understanding of, of their

business and their challenges. Before we then respond with, you

know, with with with asking for a referral, and then wrapping

that up in Johnny, and your point around sort of advice and

guidance is using that sort of humbly, but also recognizing

that if we ask for that, we are likely to get that we are still

likely to get that response. Thomas, just as we close up our

conversation from today, we started with three key things

that helps you is that helped you in being successful? If

you've got someone listening to this podcast, who's relatively

new to referrals, and hasn't seen it as a as a way of

developing business? How would you sort of summarize the three

key things for those sorts of individuals to be thinking about

and to maybe start to put into practice to really develop this

referral habit?

Very simple to answer that question. The three

things are, firstly, you have to be in the habit. So create an

accountability mechanism for yourself to exhibit those

behaviors and get you into the habit of asking for a referral

as every opportunity. How to get into a habit varies reach

individual, but make sure you get into the habit. The second

thing is the technique that you need to use in order to ask for

a referral is not to simply ask, but we need to be exploring, if

you like the mental Little Black Book of the person we are

asking, we need to help them to explore it. And the third thing

I would say is actually a negative. I have never paid for

a referral. A lot of people asked that question and should

we be rewarding the person who gives us referrals. I've been

the recipient of over a couple of bottles of nice red wine or

champagne. And that's fantastic when I've given referrals to

people, but there is no need to do that where you've got

especially where you've got the trusting relationship or the

respectful relationship. You do not need to pay or reward people

for referral, they're just willing to do it out of the

goodness of their hearts, which I think comes back to Johnny's

point around the psychology of this, that the act of asking for

referrals is primarily a psychological thing, which is

why the habit is so important, because there are psychological

barriers for most people.

I think that's awesome. I even think the act of

having this conversation now has prompted me to think about my

meetings today. And also the preparation that's required to

before those meetings to just put in the, you know, the

personal prep meeting prep message to say, ask for

referrals or ask for guidance in that as well. So, you know,

you're even having this conversation with two wonderful

consultants, like yourself, business winners, you know,

business owners and people have done so well in your own

careers, it's really sort of prompted that point of bringing

it to the surface again, I might just have to get a tattoo to

make sure that I see it every day. But this has been really

helpful. Thank you, Thomas.

Wonderful. And yeah, Johnny, I agree. There's this

bring it into our conscious competence and thinking about

this. And, Thomas, thank you so much for your fantastic advice

and guidance to us into into the audience on today's podcast.

Thank you so much for joining us today, Johnny. Thank you as well

as ever, and thank you to all of our listeners of the growth

workshop podcast. We look forward to seeing you again soon.

Right. Thank you both.