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Sales to Superfans: Strategies for Memorable Business Growth with Michael Goodman
Episode 10 • 5th September 2023 • Business Superfans Podcast • Frederick Dudek (Freddy D)
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Episode10 with Frederick Dudek (Freddy D)

Sales to Superfans: Strategies for Memorable Business Growth with Michael Goodman

In this podcast episode, host Frederick (Freddy D) interviews Michael Goodman, a seasoned sales expert. Michael shares his personal journey from a struggling salesperson to a successful sales coach and mentor, including a pivotal moment when he was fired by his own father. They delve into the common mistakes of salespeople, such as talking too much and not listening to the customer's needs. Michael emphasizes the importance of creating superfans and maintaining relationships with customers post-sale. The conversation also covers the impact of the dot-com bubble on business and the lack of structured sales training for newcomers in the industry.

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Transcripts

Freddy D:

With 20 years of experience in corporate sales and over 23 years

Freddy D:

in private practice consulting, teaching and primarily coaching,

Freddy D:

Michael Goodman has encountered a wide range of sales challenges.

Freddy D:

Having walked in the shoes of a salesperson himself, he has

Freddy D:

gained comprehensive insights into the array of problems that

Freddy D:

could possibly occur in sales.

Freddy D:

Based on that experience, he crafted a curriculum for the Solomon Cecilio

Freddy D:

system, a comprehensive work.

Freddy D:

that has been continually utilized by various companies for over 20 years.

Freddy D:

Michael has also created AZ sales pro, a dynamic community

Freddy D:

for education, motivation, and all things sales in Arizona.

Freddy D:

While skilled in leadership, communication, sales, profitability,

Freddy D:

and relationship, the work Mike does best is helping his clients find

Freddy D:

and free their identity and become world class at their profession.

Freddy D:

Welcome, Michael.

Michael Goodman:

Well, thank you for having me.

Michael Goodman:

Freddie D seems weird to be calling you Freddie because every time I communicate

Michael Goodman:

with you it's always Frederick so.

Michael Goodman:

Freddy just seems so strange.

Michael Goodman:

You know, not, not formal,

Freddy D:

That's, this is the fun guy.

Freddy D:

This is the, the, the, the Frederick is the business guy.

Freddy D:

The Freddie D guy is the podcast host, host, the guy that makes things happen.

Freddy D:

He's the fun guy that you have a beer two with.

Michael Goodman:

I love him.

Freddy D:

A glass of wine, et cetera.

Freddy D:

So car.

Freddy D:

That's it.

Freddy D:

So that's, that's the fun, dude.

Freddy D:

So Michael, how'd you get started in sales?

Michael Goodman:

You know, thinking about that question, I have a great story

Michael Goodman:

and I hope you find it as great as I do.

Michael Goodman:

When I was a.

Michael Goodman:

People, I could walk into a waiting room with a bunch of people sitting around in

Michael Goodman:

chairs and whatnot, and I could go one by one talking to each of them until my

Michael Goodman:

mom flowered at me and pulled me back.

Michael Goodman:

Said, we don't talk to strangers.

Michael Goodman:

And I think what she was doing was watching the other people in the room

Michael Goodman:

seeing if I was annoying them or not.

Michael Goodman:

And then when I did, she pulled me back.

Michael Goodman:

And so this guy who knew me knew what I was like, and knew that I didn't

Michael Goodman:

have any trouble talking to people.

Michael Goodman:

And wasn't that shy.

Michael Goodman:

I thought I could be his sales guy, but he was starting a company with,

Michael Goodman:

of computer timeshare services and he thought I'd be a great sales guy for it.

Michael Goodman:

So he invited me to talk to him.

Michael Goodman:

I went to his office, I talked to him and I accepted the job, but I didn't

Michael Goodman:

know anything about what I was doing.

Michael Goodman:

I had no clue what I was doing.

Michael Goodman:

I didn't know how to call people on the phone.

Michael Goodman:

I didn't know how to talk to them.

Michael Goodman:

I didn't know how to find the people to call on the phone.

Michael Goodman:

I didn't know anything and so I started calling around.

Michael Goodman:

I started playing with the phone book and just calling, and really, I.

Michael Goodman:

Painfully worked my way into having some kinda language to, to say to

Michael Goodman:

somebody when I got 'em on the phone.

Michael Goodman:

There's a weird thing about this, Freddy.

Michael Goodman:

When you call somebody on the phone, they absolutely expect

Michael Goodman:

you to know what you called for.

Michael Goodman:

And so stumbling through that doesn't help.

Michael Goodman:

And so

Freddy D:

I, oh no, that's, that's, that's, that's that's

Freddy D:

a face plant, as we would say.

Michael Goodman:

Yeah.

Michael Goodman:

Right.

Michael Goodman:

And that's, yeah, totally.

Michael Goodman:

Spent a year doing it badly.

Michael Goodman:

Got to where I really just couldn't pick up the phone anymore.

Michael Goodman:

I hated picking up the phone and that was my job.

Michael Goodman:

And, and this was back in the day when you could actually reach people when

Michael Goodman:

you called them on the phone and it was.

Michael Goodman:

It was just painful.

Michael Goodman:

I didn't like it and I started slowing down.

Michael Goodman:

I wasn't doing it so much.

Michael Goodman:

And and, and I ended up having a conversation with that guy in his

Michael Goodman:

office again and he fired me from my sales job, my first ever sales job.

Michael Goodman:

And, and, 'cause I wasn't doing anything.

Michael Goodman:

And it took him about a year, year and a half to actually fire me.

Michael Goodman:

And that guy was my dad.

Michael Goodman:

Oh wow.

Michael Goodman:

Right?

Michael Goodman:

Yeah.

Michael Goodman:

And so when you, when you fail for your dad, it's ugly.

Michael Goodman:

It wasn't pretty.

Michael Goodman:

I hated that and I wanted to prove that I can too, be good at this.

Michael Goodman:

And so I've stayed at it and I've gotten to a point where I'm pretty

Michael Goodman:

effective at it today, but all of it is because I failed my dad

Michael Goodman:

and, and that's how I got started.

Michael Goodman:

Okay.

Michael Goodman:

Wow.

Michael Goodman:

What a story.

Michael Goodman:

What a story.

Michael Goodman:

I mean, that's especially, you know, In front of your dad is a,

Michael Goodman:

is a, is a tough one to swallow.

Michael Goodman:

Yes.

Michael Goodman:

That stays with you for a long time.

Michael Goodman:

So that's definitely internal motivation to redeem yourself and, and kick some

Michael Goodman:

butt and, and you know, just look back at that as a teaching moment that

Michael Goodman:

transform your life in a positive way

Michael Goodman:

and learn some stuff about what you're doing and structure and whatnot.

Michael Goodman:

Yeah.

Freddy D:

So how'd you, how'd you evolve into doing, you know, sales coaching and

Freddy D:

sales mentoring with companies today?

Freddy D:

So,

Michael Goodman:

in 1999, I was the general manager and sales

Michael Goodman:

manager for a software training company that was here in town.

Michael Goodman:

I was a.

Michael Goodman:

A corporate asset of a global company called Executor.

Michael Goodman:

They were a franchise organization.

Michael Goodman:

Mm-hmm.

Michael Goodman:

And they owned the Phoenix location.

Michael Goodman:

So I was responsible for Phoenix and Tucson to help grow

Michael Goodman:

the revenue of the company.

Michael Goodman:

And that was the time the.com bubble was bursting.

Michael Goodman:

I had worked for years to get a relationship with the

Michael Goodman:

local utility company, SS r p.

Michael Goodman:

I had had, I had a relationship with them.

Michael Goodman:

I worked forever.

Michael Goodman:

And we finally got that piece of business into execute train.

Michael Goodman:

I got a contract with them and it was great.

Michael Goodman:

They had had something like 300 training days a year going on, and

Michael Goodman:

when the dotcom bubble burst, They went down to 30 training days not

Michael Goodman:

3,000 a year, 300 a month, and they went down to 30 training days a month.

Michael Goodman:

So, so I lost 90% of that business through nothing we did wrong.

Michael Goodman:

Right, right, right.

Michael Goodman:

Okay.

Freddy D:

And I

Michael Goodman:

remember those days.

Michael Goodman:

Yeah.

Michael Goodman:

And that was the flavor of the world at the time.

Michael Goodman:

And here I am leading a training company.

Michael Goodman:

As a corporate asset, and I know that the headquarters is in trouble

Michael Goodman:

financially, and so the writing was on the wall and I began to look at what

Michael Goodman:

I wanted to do in technical education.

Michael Goodman:

At that time, we were putting people through Microsoft certified

Michael Goodman:

systems engineering training, Novell engineering training.

Michael Goodman:

We were graduating people.

Michael Goodman:

When I first started doing that, five years earlier, we had graduated

Michael Goodman:

people who were going from.

Michael Goodman:

Our class from a $60,000 a year job where they were losing their job re-skilling

Michael Goodman:

into the certified engineer and moving up to 75, $80,000 just because they had

Michael Goodman:

the certification and some knowledge.

Michael Goodman:

Wow.

Michael Goodman:

And I was fascinated by that.

Michael Goodman:

And what occurred to me late in that cycle, late in the time I was with Execut

Michael Goodman:

train, was that I was pretty skilled.

Michael Goodman:

A, I'd learned sales effectively by then.

Michael Goodman:

My dad was no longer gonna fire me if he'd hired me.

Michael Goodman:

And I'd learned sales management.

Michael Goodman:

And it occurred to me that there was no effective training ground for salespeople.

Michael Goodman:

Like there had been years earlier.

Michael Goodman:

Once upon a time you'd get a job at at the copy, one of the copy machine companies.

Michael Goodman:

And they would, they would teach you sales.

Michael Goodman:

They had a lot of great sales training programs.

Freddy D:

Right.

Freddy D:

I remember those days.

Freddy D:

Yep.

Michael Goodman:

Right.

Michael Goodman:

They became spin selling and some of the other major models and, and, but nobody

Michael Goodman:

had a sales model including Sandler.

Michael Goodman:

To take somebody who's never been in sales before and help them learn sales.

Michael Goodman:

And it occurred to me, with my experience at the time, I can create a sales training

Michael Goodman:

academy and take kids who are going to high school and graduating and never

Michael Goodman:

gonna go to college, teach them how to sell and have them making a hundred

Michael Goodman:

thousand dollars a year, two years after they start, if they do the work.

Michael Goodman:

Right, right.

Freddy D:

No, absolutely.

Freddy D:

I mean, you know, the thing is you, you know, you talk about kids, who's

Freddy D:

the best salespeople in the world?

Freddy D:

It's kids.

Freddy D:

I mean, think, think about it.

Freddy D:

You know, they're, they, they're going to the grocery, you know, to the store.

Freddy D:

Yeah.

Freddy D:

And you know, they see a toy or, or gizmo or something that they want.

Freddy D:

And so they go up to to mom and say, Hey mom, can I have this?

Freddy D:

Yeah.

Freddy D:

And mom says, well, you know, I gotta ask.

Freddy D:

Your dad.

Freddy D:

And so the kid goes back and spins it a little bit and says, mom says I can

Freddy D:

have this if you say this is okay.

Freddy D:

And then he goes, well, I wanna make sure the mom says it.

Freddy D:

And then it turns around and says, well, you know what?

Freddy D:

I'll clean my room.

Freddy D:

I'll take out the garbage for a week, and blah, blah, blah.

Freddy D:

And they, and they keep going, and no is not an answer for them.

Freddy D:

They just repackage it and they keep going and they get the sale, and

Freddy D:

they get the toy or the gizmo right.

Michael Goodman:

Somehow we forget that when we become an adult and we, we

Michael Goodman:

accept more nos than we ever have to.

Freddy D:

Right?

Freddy D:

Exactly.

Freddy D:

Yeah.

Freddy D:

We, we just, we as soon as we get a no, oh, shuck in my head down and off we go.

Freddy D:

And we don't try again.

Freddy D:

You know, a lot of, unfortunately, a lot of rookie salespeople don't try

Freddy D:

again if figured, okay, well I'll just go to the next one, and that

Freddy D:

no, may not have been a affirmed No.

Freddy D:

It was just that I, I, I'm not convinced that, you know, I'm, I need your stuff.

Michael Goodman:

Right.

Michael Goodman:

And they don't know how to deal with the perception of conflict

Michael Goodman:

that, that no means to them.

Michael Goodman:

Correct.

Michael Goodman:

I'm, I'm afraid I can't go to Frederick and say, Hey, come on, we, we said

Michael Goodman:

that this was valuable for you.

Michael Goodman:

You said you liked it.

Michael Goodman:

Now you're a little hesitant.

Michael Goodman:

Help me understand what's going on.

Michael Goodman:

There's no language structure for them to understand how to reengage

Michael Goodman:

that conversation in a way that's meaningful and valuable to them.

Freddy D:

Correct.

Freddy D:

Correct.

Freddy D:

Yep.

Freddy D:

Yep.

Freddy D:

So what do you think, what do you think is some of the biggest

Freddy D:

mistakes that salespeople make?

Michael Goodman:

What occurs to me is, I'm gonna answer that question by

Michael Goodman:

pointing out what we're doing here.

Michael Goodman:

The number one mistake salespeople make is talking too much without regard to

Michael Goodman:

what the agenda of the prospect is.

Michael Goodman:

That's the number

Freddy D:

one.

Freddy D:

Yeah.

Freddy D:

I would, does that make sense?

Freddy D:

Totally agree.

Freddy D:

Totally agree.

Freddy D:

They don't ask questions.

Freddy D:

They start just blah, blah, blah.

Freddy D:

Here's what we can do.

Freddy D:

Here's how we can help you.

Freddy D:

Lemme tell you how wonderful we are.

Freddy D:

We're great.

Freddy D:

We're wonderful.

Freddy D:

You need to buy us and all this stuff.

Freddy D:

And, and that person's not even listening anymore.

Freddy D:

There's shut off.

Michael Goodman:

Right.

Michael Goodman:

Which, you know, it's kind of what I'm doing here on this podcast is.

Michael Goodman:

Blah, blah, blah.

Michael Goodman:

So hopefully there's some kind of interesting engaging stuff in it.

Michael Goodman:

Well, we're,

Freddy D:

we're, we're, we're sharing, we're educating and we're sharing

Freddy D:

information, so it's a little bit, a little bit different, but you know,

Freddy D:

what's, what's a, you know, after the sale, you know, I, I, there's a lot of.

Freddy D:

People that still have like a transactional mindset that they make

Freddy D:

the sale and okay, it's done and then they move on to the next person and

Freddy D:

they really ignore, and this is what, you know, where, where leads to is,

Freddy D:

you know how to create super fans.

Freddy D:

They really ignore that existing customer 'cause well, that was

Freddy D:

a transaction, they're done.

Freddy D:

You know, I'm, I'm on to the next one.

Michael Goodman:

Yeah.

Michael Goodman:

I got my commission, I'm done with them.

Freddy D:

Right.

Freddy D:

And, and let's talk about how the importance of maintaining and

Freddy D:

building that relationship with those customers to get them into superfan.

Freddy D:

So, you know, my word for super, you know, brand advocate or an

Freddy D:

advocate is I call a superfan.

Freddy D:

But you know, in a sense, the super fan is the, the, the rock star of the advocate.

Freddy D:

And.

Freddy D:

I think that a lot of salespeople, small business owners, entrepreneurs

Freddy D:

and even midsize businesses don't get it and, and don't maintain that

Freddy D:

engagement with those existing customers.

Freddy D:

Yeah.

Freddy D:

Yeah.

Michael Goodman:

Earlier you asked me how did I get into sales

Michael Goodman:

consulting, and I talked about, you know, wanting to create a sales

Michael Goodman:

training academy, which I never ran.

Michael Goodman:

But I got to work for a lot of companies.

Michael Goodman:

I used that experience to gain consulting clients, right?

Michael Goodman:

Mm-hmm.

Michael Goodman:

And I learned something that's really apropos of this question you've just asked

Michael Goodman:

me, and that is a lot of times salespeople don't fail because of the salesperson.

Michael Goodman:

They fail because of what executive leadership is asking them to do.

Michael Goodman:

In the sales organization and, and I don't wanna throw executives

Michael Goodman:

under a bus, but I will.

Michael Goodman:

The fact is that it depends a lot on the sales organization itself.

Michael Goodman:

So if they're pushing the salesperson to close that and go away, that's the,

Michael Goodman:

that's up to, that's on the organization.

Freddy D:

Any sales.

Freddy D:

I agree.

Freddy D:

Totally agree.

Michael Goodman:

Right?

Michael Goodman:

Okay.

Michael Goodman:

Yeah, absolutely.

Michael Goodman:

Any salesperson worth his, understands that his reputation in the community.

Michael Goodman:

Is more important than his reputation with the company he's with because he's

Michael Goodman:

gonna be looking for another job every couple of years according to statistics.

Michael Goodman:

And he, his capacity to get a new job, especially in the same industry,

Michael Goodman:

is gonna be dependent on how well his customers are super fans.

Michael Goodman:

Correct.

Michael Goodman:

Right?

Michael Goodman:

Yep.

Michael Goodman:

So he's got to operate with a degree of integrity and empowerment that

Michael Goodman:

goes way beyond the environment.

Michael Goodman:

He may or may not be, or she may or may not be working in.

Michael Goodman:

Does that make sense?

Freddy D:

Totally makes sense.

Freddy D:

Right.

Freddy D:

You know, I can relate to you know, a, a real short story was, you know, when I

Freddy D:

was selling manufacturing software back in the mid nineties, early mid nineties

Freddy D:

I had a customer that became my superfan.

Freddy D:

They were a a tool and dive mold shop basically.

Freddy D:

And The IT manager and I became really good friends.

Freddy D:

Actually the owner of the company became good friends.

Freddy D:

The other owner of the company that was in Sweden, and I became good

Freddy D:

friends and we're still friends today and we're talking decades later.

Freddy D:

But.

Freddy D:

I looked at, when I spent time with them.

Freddy D:

It wasn't, we never got into how the software worked.

Freddy D:

You know, all the technical aspects.

Freddy D:

We looked at the, where they wanted to grow as a business.

Freddy D:

Yeah.

Freddy D:

And how, how my tool, you know, I would basically find out, tell 'em, hey,

Freddy D:

you know, there's three, four other software products that can do the stuff.

Freddy D:

They'll all do the job.

Freddy D:

Okay.

Freddy D:

Otherwise, they wouldn't be in business.

Freddy D:

Right.

Freddy D:

But let's look at where do you want to be in the next few years and et

Freddy D:

cetera, and then how this is gonna help.

Freddy D:

Get there.

Freddy D:

And it was funny 'cause when I started working with them,

Freddy D:

they were a 40 man shop.

Freddy D:

Four years later.

Freddy D:

They were 120 man shop.

Freddy D:

They bought two businesses, bought, built Breezeways in there, and every

Freddy D:

time I needed a referral or used them as a reference, they were more

Freddy D:

than willing and they became my super fans, which in turn helped me sell

Freddy D:

more customers, which made me the number one sales guy in the company.

Michael Goodman:

That's awesome and that's how it works when you're doing your job.

Michael Goodman:

Right, right, right.

Michael Goodman:

You just hit on something that I think is the critical, it's the critical answer

Michael Goodman:

to the question you asked me earlier.

Michael Goodman:

How do you create super fans?

Michael Goodman:

And you and I know that the number one thing to do early in the

Michael Goodman:

conversation with a prospect is understand their needs at depth, right?

Michael Goodman:

You have to qualify them as are, are they worth spending time on?

Michael Goodman:

And if they have needs, then it's worth exploring.

Michael Goodman:

And when you explore those needs in an effective way than really what you have

Michael Goodman:

are what you compare yourself to later.

Michael Goodman:

So if I go back and say, Hey, when we talked you needed this.

Michael Goodman:

This and this, and I think we've done that.

Michael Goodman:

Have we hit those marks for you?

Michael Goodman:

Then you are helping them recognize that you.

Michael Goodman:

Produced and performed at the level they needed to when you

Michael Goodman:

first started with that, right?

Freddy D:

Oh, absolutely.

Michael Goodman:

A hundred percent of your super fandom is dependent on how well you

Michael Goodman:

solve the problems they actually have.

Michael Goodman:

Does that make sense?

Freddy D:

And that's it.

Freddy D:

And, and also it's sometimes it's.

Freddy D:

It's not problems, it's business aspiration goals.

Freddy D:

Yes.

Freddy D:

So, so, you know, you've got, you've got the productivity problems that they

Freddy D:

need, but they need to get that solved so that they can grow their business.

Freddy D:

Like, like this particular company that I mentioned, you know, they

Freddy D:

wanted to grow and they did grow.

Freddy D:

They grew three times their size.

Freddy D:

Because I understood that that was the long-term game plan that the owner,

Michael Goodman:

Yes.

Freddy D:

Wanted to accomplish.

Freddy D:

Yeah.

Freddy D:

And so I helped him position things in the organization that would get them there.

Michael Goodman:

Your analysis, your needs analysis was exactly what made

Michael Goodman:

that thing work for you and created the lifetime friendship, right?

Freddy D:

Yep.

Freddy D:

Yep.

Michael Goodman:

And that's because you listened.

Michael Goodman:

You heard them when they were talking, right?

Michael Goodman:

The only other thing you can do beyond that is to give them 10% more in some

Michael Goodman:

form or fashion than what they're asking you for, and then you're a hero.

Freddy D:

But yeah.

Freddy D:

And, and, but one of the things that I did is and this is, this is one of

Freddy D:

the techniques to build super fans is.

Freddy D:

I acknowledged everybody.

Freddy D:

So when we did the, we held the meeting to demonstrate the software back then.

Freddy D:

Okay.

Freddy D:

And it doesn't matter whether it's software or encyclopedias

Freddy D:

or whatever the the thing is.

Michael Goodman:

Yes.

Freddy D:

Through everybody got a thank you letter in the mail

Freddy D:

that said thank you, Michael, for taking the time out of your busy

Freddy D:

day to participate in our meeting.

Freddy D:

Your feedback was greatly appreciated and I'm grateful for the insight that you did

Freddy D:

and we look forward to, you know, working with you guys in the future and everybody

Freddy D:

I made sure to get everybody's name.

Freddy D:

And everybody, you know got a letter sent or got an email sent or a combination

Freddy D:

of both thanking them for their time, their feedback and everything else.

Freddy D:

And what would happen is they would have a meeting afterwards to decide

Freddy D:

which vendor they wanted to go with, and everybody would turn around because

Freddy D:

I would ask, why did you pick us?

Freddy D:

And they would come back and says, well, we felt that after

Freddy D:

the sale you would provide us with the best follow up and support.

Freddy D:

And I, and, and, and bottom line was because I sent that.

Freddy D:

Thank you.

Freddy D:

Appreciate your time.

Freddy D:

And I made sure that I hit everybody's feedback points

Freddy D:

in there that I was listening.

Freddy D:

And what I would do is I'd mark 'em on a, on the market board in the

Freddy D:

conference, so I had a chance to, okay, Michael, what's, what are you looking

Freddy D:

to get out of today's presentation?

Freddy D:

Blah, blah, blah.

Freddy D:

Steve, what are you looking, Mary, what are you looking?

Freddy D:

I write it all down and then I just spit that all back to 'em and say, Hey, you

Freddy D:

know, did we address what you, you wanted?

Freddy D:

Oh yes.

Freddy D:

And it was, it was, once you get the system down, it's actually pretty easy.

Freddy D:

And that's fun.

Freddy D:

You have fun doing it.

Michael Goodman:

I, I didn't know this, but it sounds like you

Michael Goodman:

and I have very similar models.

Michael Goodman:

Once you know what they want, the presentation becomes very

Michael Goodman:

simple later in the conversation.

Michael Goodman:

'cause it's just hitting those buttons.

Michael Goodman:

Right.

Michael Goodman:

And then how you differentiate from other people.

Michael Goodman:

Yeah, that's, you know, that's ridiculously powerful and I respect

Michael Goodman:

that Frederick, in a big way.

Michael Goodman:

I, there's, there's a thing about, you know, why, why would

Michael Goodman:

I buy a Chevrolet from this dealership versus that dealership?

Michael Goodman:

And at the end of the day, in a commodity market, the person makes

Michael Goodman:

the difference, the person, the humanity is the differentiator.

Freddy D:

Yep.

Michael Goodman:

We always want to feel like we're loved and lovable.

Michael Goodman:

And when you sent out mail to each of those, acknowledging each of them

Michael Goodman:

personally by name and what they.

Michael Goodman:

What they listed, what you were saying was, I hear you.

Michael Goodman:

I care about you, and I just want you to know I appreciate you.

Michael Goodman:

Come on.

Michael Goodman:

There's nothing better than

Michael Goodman:

that.

Freddy D:

No, it's, it's, I just built super fans out of all those,

Freddy D:

all those people in that room, and they, when it came down to making you

Freddy D:

know, picking the vendor, that was it.

Freddy D:

And, and it, you know, years later, I used the same approach when I was

Freddy D:

selling construction management software to home builders is the same approach.

Freddy D:

And I would win every sale because, Of that approach and the competition

Freddy D:

had zero chance because we didn't get into pricing, we got into strategies.

Michael Goodman:

That's so cool that that makes all the sense in the world.

Michael Goodman:

I wanted to ask if you've heard of a book called The Ultimate Question, and

Michael Goodman:

it's the root of the Net Promoter score.

Michael Goodman:

Are you familiar with that?

Freddy D:

No, I'm not familiar with that book.

Freddy D:

Okay, so Net Promoter Score is a way to rank.

Freddy D:

How you are doing with your client.

Freddy D:

And so you've, if you ask fundamentally, on a scale of one

Freddy D:

to 10, where would you rank us as a vendor or provider for your company?

Freddy D:

And they give you a nine or a 10, you're on target, you're in the top 20%, right?

Freddy D:

Mm-hmm.

Michael Goodman:

To a six, seven or eight.

Michael Goodman:

You're, you're, they like you and you're okay, but they're not

Michael Goodman:

a net promoter of who you are.

Michael Goodman:

And then if you're, you're below that, then you got a problem, you

Michael Goodman:

got an issue you need to resolve.

Freddy D:

Right.

Michael Goodman:

That make sense?

Michael Goodman:

Okay.

Freddy D:

It does.

Michael Goodman:

And, and so if your net promoter score, I think that that,

Michael Goodman:

that's one of the best ways to get the feedback to know if you are a sup,

Michael Goodman:

if they're a super fan, is to check in with them regularly on your score.

Michael Goodman:

What could we have done better for you to, to have gotten a higher score from you?

Michael Goodman:

You get the feedback you need to adjust your business to make sure you serve them.

Michael Goodman:

Although most people won't say, Frederick you need to send me thank you notes

Michael Goodman:

every time we do business with you.

Michael Goodman:

They won't say things like that.

Freddy D:

Right.

Michael Goodman:

They'll say things like, well, I, I don't know that

Michael Goodman:

you care about us as much, right?

Michael Goodman:

Or something.

Michael Goodman:

Exactly.

Michael Goodman:

And, and, and you know, it, it's

Freddy D:

true.

Freddy D:

And, and in the business superfan, you know, the book creating Business

Freddy D:

Super fans that I wrote, I have a score, you know, a scorecard.

Freddy D:

And you can go through that scorecard and, and find and

Freddy D:

score yourself from zero to 10.

Freddy D:

And in turn, put dots into, it's like a dartboard and take a look

Freddy D:

at where you're at with the score.

Freddy D:

And most likely most businesses will have a dilapidated wheel.

Freddy D:

It won't be a nice smooth wheel.

Freddy D:

And then you can start, and then there's an action plan with the thing that

Freddy D:

they get can get off of the business superfan.com website that helps them

Freddy D:

make changes to improve their score.

Freddy D:

And it could be that they, they, they don't do good job in follow up.

Freddy D:

And, and we could have a whole segment on follow up.

Freddy D:

'cause you know, timing is everything.

Freddy D:

You don't wanna wait two hours.

Freddy D:

You want to get to somebody.

Freddy D:

If they come in, a web inquiry comes into your, from your website to you,

Freddy D:

you've got minutes to respond because otherwise they're shopping someplace

Freddy D:

else because you, and the first one that gets to 'em usually gets the business.

Michael Goodman:

Yes,

Freddy D:

And, and there's no farm.

Freddy D:

There's no comparison or nothing.

Freddy D:

The you called first, you're on the job, they go with you.

Freddy D:

I have a line that I teach people.

Michael Goodman:

Time kills all deals, right?

Michael Goodman:

Yeah.

Michael Goodman:

You don't respond.

Michael Goodman:

I will say that I'm always been fascinated by the SDRs, the sales development

Michael Goodman:

representatives in the software companies out of the Bay Area who have software.

Michael Goodman:

If that will allow you to call the person who's on your website right now.

Michael Goodman:

So they will track back to your phone number from your your Address

Michael Goodman:

that you're calling in from.

Freddy D:

Mm-hmm.

Michael Goodman:

And so while you're on the website, they will call

Michael Goodman:

you, which in many ways I think is creepy if they call me right then.

Michael Goodman:

So, It's effective, but it's a little weird when it happens.

Freddy D:

Oh yeah.

Freddy D:

I mean, I, I get it.

Freddy D:

I mean, I've, I've responded to leads, you know, that came in and

Freddy D:

I've either called them within three minutes of the lead coming in.

Freddy D:

I typically, I hit, the first thing I do is I hit the, if they put

Freddy D:

in a U R L or I look at the email

Michael Goodman:

Yes.

Freddy D:

And then I get the u r L out of the email.

Michael Goodman:

Yes.

Freddy D:

I go take a quick peek to their website to get a quick

Freddy D:

synopsis of what their business is.

Michael Goodman:

Yes.

Freddy D:

And I call them and says, oh, I understand you do this

Freddy D:

and this, and how can we help?

Freddy D:

You know, you've inquired for this, how can we help?

Freddy D:

Yeah, that's it.

Freddy D:

And I just shut up.

Freddy D:

How can we help?

Michael Goodman:

Yeah.

Michael Goodman:

I I use a question like, you know, when you clicked on the

Michael Goodman:

link and wanted more information, I wanna make sure we cover that.

Michael Goodman:

What kinds of things do you wanna know from me?

Michael Goodman:

Right?

Michael Goodman:

But either way, when they're talking, you're getting the information

Michael Goodman:

you need to progress effectively.

Michael Goodman:

If they're not talking, you're, you're twiddling your thumbs.

Freddy D:

Yep.

Freddy D:

Yep.

Freddy D:

So let's, let's You know, you've got the salesperson, but how

Freddy D:

important is it, you know?

Freddy D:

Okay.

Freddy D:

The sale's done.

Freddy D:

How important is the, the, the post-sales with the rest of the eng, the members of

Freddy D:

the company you know, the t the employees and stuff, building that relationship.

Freddy D:

'cause as we all know, the sale begins after the sale.

Michael Goodman:

Yeah.

Freddy D:

And, and so to create the super fans beyond the salesperson, what's,

Freddy D:

what's the, the backend gotta do you.

Michael Goodman:

Know, this, this is why I talked a little bit about it depends on

Michael Goodman:

the company and depends on the leadership.

Michael Goodman:

In my mind, any leadership that's worth its salt is training all of the team

Michael Goodman:

members, that everybody's a salesperson and we're all here to make sure the

Michael Goodman:

customer is happy and taken care of.

Michael Goodman:

So no matter what ha happens, you what you have in post-sale.

Michael Goodman:

Either the sales guy becomes a project manager for, to make sure that the, the

Michael Goodman:

implementation goes well, or the sales guy is sent to carry on with other people and

Michael Goodman:

they're people who are designed to be the, the support and implementation people.

Michael Goodman:

Whatever it is, everybody has to be on point to make sure

Michael Goodman:

that customer is taken care of.

Michael Goodman:

Right.

Michael Goodman:

Period.

Freddy D:

Absolutely.

Freddy D:

Absolutely.

Michael Goodman:

And every company has their own process.

Michael Goodman:

So once, once they sign off the document, every company has their

Michael Goodman:

own process now on how to initiate and implement that transaction.

Michael Goodman:

Including everything from how does it go through finance and accounting,

Michael Goodman:

how does it get to production, if there's production involved?

Michael Goodman:

How do we, how do we serve what we sold?

Michael Goodman:

And and then it's a matter of maintaining the relationship as you are one of

Michael Goodman:

the brilliant speakers of if you don't maintain the relationship, you're toast.

Michael Goodman:

Okay.

Michael Goodman:

And so somebody has to be responsible for keeping them happy, and that's where the

Michael Goodman:

sales person's notes on the needs analysis have to be impeccable in the database.

Michael Goodman:

You wanna know what the biggest mistake companies make?

Michael Goodman:

They piss away the use of the database instead of using it as a primary

Michael Goodman:

tool for relating to that customer.

Michael Goodman:

Right?

Freddy D:

Yeah.

Michael Goodman:

The original notes on the needs analysis, somebody

Michael Goodman:

goes back and makes sure that all of that is being covered and are we

Michael Goodman:

doing a good job and do you love us?

Michael Goodman:

Right?

Michael Goodman:

And if they don't, then deal with it right now.

Michael Goodman:

Fix it with the same smile you broke it with or sold it with, right?

Freddy D:

Sure.

Freddy D:

Yeah.

Freddy D:

And but the other, the absolutely correct.

Freddy D:

And then, but the other part of the equation that needs to be incorporated

Freddy D:

is that if that company, that management doesn't take care of their employees Yeah.

Freddy D:

And appreciate their employees, then you're gonna have someone that's

Freddy D:

gonna be a little bit disgruntled because they don't feel appreciated.

Freddy D:

They feel they've been shortchanged, ignored.

Freddy D:

Blah, blah, blah, whatever it is, they're not going to go all out and

Freddy D:

go the extra effort for that customer.

Freddy D:

They're gonna basically say, well, I'm just gonna do my minimum because,

Michael Goodman:

Yeah,

Freddy D:

that's it.

Freddy D:

And, and so even though the sales guy may have done a great job and built a great

Freddy D:

relationship with the customer, and the flow is all set, set up correctly, but the

Freddy D:

missing link is the employee or employees.

Michael Goodman:

Yes.

Freddy D:

Feel not basically are, are unappreciated or not even recognized

Freddy D:

for their extra efforts to solve something, they're not gonna put

Freddy D:

forth that extra effort that needs to be for a sit particular situation.

Freddy D:

And the whole thing starts to unravel.

Michael Goodman:

Yeah.

Michael Goodman:

Yeah.

Michael Goodman:

I, I, you know, I've been in the Phoenix area for a long, long time,

Michael Goodman:

and for years I've gotten gas at Circle K or QuickTrip or different places,

Michael Goodman:

and it is ridiculously noticeable how the difference between walking into a

Michael Goodman:

QuickTrip is and walking into a circle.

Michael Goodman:

K don't mind me while I throw corporate America under a bus, but

Michael Goodman:

I'm going to, they are trained at a quick trip to say hello to everybody

Michael Goodman:

to walk that walks in the door.

Michael Goodman:

And create a moment of humanity.

Michael Goodman:

Now, most of the time they're walking in the door after they've

Michael Goodman:

spent money on gas, right?

Michael Goodman:

And they're coming in to get a snack or whatever they're doing.

Michael Goodman:

You walk into a door to circle K and people don't acknowledge you

Michael Goodman:

and and you're, it's sometimes a struggle to get a cashier to help you.

Michael Goodman:

On your agenda versus their own, whatever they might be doing.

Freddy D:

Mm-hmm.

Michael Goodman:

And the difference in the feeling of being cared for

Michael Goodman:

or not cared for is pretty evident, pretty obvious that QuickTrip makes

Michael Goodman:

an intentional effort at creating relatedness between the store and its

Michael Goodman:

customers and other organizations Don't.

Michael Goodman:

Well, and it goes, that goes back to management.

Michael Goodman:

And so the management is obviously taking care of the employees and

Michael Goodman:

making the employees feel valued.

Michael Goodman:

Yes.

Michael Goodman:

And appreciated.

Freddy D:

Yes.

Freddy D:

'cause you can, again, if you don't express that appreciation and gratitude,

Freddy D:

you can do all the training in the world.

Freddy D:

The employees still gonna say, eh, okay.

Freddy D:

Hello?

Michael Goodman:

Yeah.

Freddy D:

You know it.

Freddy D:

Because they got to, but there's not, hello.

Freddy D:

Hey, welcome in.

Freddy D:

You know, it's a, it's a different mindset because they're happy

Freddy D:

doing what they're doing.

Freddy D:

Yeah.

Freddy D:

And it comes across genuinely.

Freddy D:

That's the big difference too.

Michael Goodman:

Yes.

Michael Goodman:

One of the things I've taken to doing, I.

Michael Goodman:

Is, and, and this came because I was doing a lot of work in organizations

Michael Goodman:

to help their sales teams and not being able to make an impact

Michael Goodman:

recognizing that executive management is responsible for a big chunk of that.

Michael Goodman:

After I'm gone, I took on certification with the John Maxwell team, a, a huge

Michael Goodman:

leadership structure organization, and if there's a high turnover

Michael Goodman:

rate in companies, I almost always include leadership training as a

Michael Goodman:

gift or a bonus for the executives.

Michael Goodman:

I don't do it because I like giving it away.

Michael Goodman:

I do, but I, but I do it because if they understand they have a role in

Michael Goodman:

the sales effort and what that role is, then there's a higher, much greater

Michael Goodman:

likelihood of whatever work I do being successful in that thing over time.

Freddy D:

So, so Michael, how can people get ahold of you?

Michael Goodman:

You know, it's really easy to find my website, revenue

Michael Goodman:

kinetics.com and you can get ahold of me through the messaging app there.

Michael Goodman:

I would love it if people emailed me or called me.

Michael Goodman:

I will answer my, if I'm not busy, I will answer my phone.

Michael Goodman:

If you are a spam caller, I'm not as nice, but if you're calling me

Michael Goodman:

'cause I can help you in some form or fashion then please call me.

Michael Goodman:

My telephone number is 602 5 0 9 5 5 0 6 or my email address that my in is Michael.

Michael Goodman:

M i c h a e l.

Michael Goodman:

Just, you know, like, like, not like Mickey Mouse, I suppose.

Michael Goodman:

And my, nevermind Michael@revenuekinetics.com.

Michael Goodman:

Send me an email and I would love to help people.

Michael Goodman:

I, I like, I love this stuff.

Michael Goodman:

And what do you, what do you have, what do

Freddy D:

you have for our viewers and, and listeners as an offer that

Freddy D:

would entice 'em to reach out to you and, and have you take a look at what's

Freddy D:

happening in their business and, and help them explode their business?

Michael Goodman:

Yeah.

Michael Goodman:

Well, first off, you should know that I do this because I love it.

Michael Goodman:

You gotta tell me you don't love helping salespeople.

Michael Goodman:

You love the light going on, you love the increase, the impact you make in company.

Michael Goodman:

I love this stuff so they can call me and ask questions.

Michael Goodman:

Just because they want to, but I wanna, I wanna, I want to incent or induce

Michael Goodman:

business owners to give me a call.

Michael Goodman:

So here's what I'll do.

Michael Goodman:

Any business owner that gives me a call that I will spend time with

Michael Goodman:

them, I will find them $50,000 worth of profit in their business.

Michael Goodman:

This goes beyond my.

Michael Goodman:

I have to say, if they started the business yesterday, it

Michael Goodman:

may not be able to happen.

Michael Goodman:

Right.

Freddy D:

And none.

Freddy D:

But you could point 'em in the road to where they can earn 50,000.

Michael Goodman:

Absolutely will Right.

Michael Goodman:

And want to.

Michael Goodman:

But but I will find any business owner $50,000 in one hour without them

Michael Goodman:

spending any more money on marketing or advertising that's already in the

Michael Goodman:

business that they're not capturing.

Michael Goodman:

And they, and much of it can be captured inside of 30 days.

Freddy D:

Wow.

Freddy D:

That's amazing folks.

Michael Goodman:

Yeah.

Freddy D:

That's amazing.

Freddy D:

Reach out to Michael and have him take a look at your business

Freddy D:

and put 50 grand into your pocket that you didn't know you had.

Michael Goodman:

Right,

Freddy D:

Exactly, exactly.

Michael Goodman:

Makes it a cheap phone call, doesn't it?

Freddy D:

Exactly.

Freddy D:

Or an expensive one if you don't make the phone call.

Freddy D:

There you go.

Freddy D:

All right.

Freddy D:

So, all right Michael, well, pleasure having you on the show.

Freddy D:

And I look forward to having you on the show again, continuing our

Freddy D:

conversations about sales and, and creating super fans and things

Freddy D:

that business owners can be doing.

Freddy D:

And, and again, thanks so much for being on the show.

Michael Goodman:

Frederick, I I, just before we get outta here, I just wanna

Michael Goodman:

say thank you for having me on the show.

Michael Goodman:

I appreciate

Freddy D:

You're welcome.

Michael Goodman:

I love your book, and as I mentioned, I

Michael Goodman:

think I'm on the cover somewhere.

Michael Goodman:

I love the work you have done, and it's clear how much you have brought

Michael Goodman:

to people to make a difference in their lives with the book.

Michael Goodman:

It's powerful and there's good material in it, so thank you for

Michael Goodman:

inviting me to be in your orbit and, and be a partner here today.

Freddy D:

All right, Michael.

Freddy D:

Thank you very much.

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