As a parent, it’s easy to get stuck in the role of managing our children, or enforcing rules, or generally corralling our kids in one way or another. But what about our relationship with them?

Matthew sits down with fellow dad, Jeff, as they delve into the heartfelt and complex journey of fatherhood. They discuss their personal challenges and growth, from managing patience and punctuality to navigating the evolving needs of their children throughout different stages of life. Together they reflect on four questions to help them define their relationships with their children.  Listen to discover what they have learned from both their children and the Rad Dad Collective. 

Highlights

• Maintaining relevance and support as children grow older.
• Insights on the division of parental responsibilities
• Fostering mutual respect and encouraging independence
• The importance of being present and connected to their lives into adulthood.
• The evolving role of fathers in providing emotional support.
• Importance of shared joyful experiences in strengthening parent-child bonds.

To Learn More:

Connect with us at the Rad Dad Collective: https://www.raddadcollective.org/

Sign up for Matthew’s Fatherhood Dojo Newsletter: https://www.fatherhood-dojo.com

Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/raddadcollective/

Join our Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/theRadDadCollective

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In the role of parents, it's easy to get stuck in the role of managing our children or enforcing rules, or generally corralling our kids one way or the other. But what about our relationship with them? What about the way we interact and show them that we on a deeper level can see them as a fellow human being, walking their own path alongside ours? This is Matthew Sloane. Joining me today for this topic is Jeff. Yes. And Chuck. Hey, Jeff. I Matthew. And Jeff is actually I want to honor you for this. Jeff, you're the original visionary for this podcast, you were the first person to mention Hey, this is a thing we should do. And it got some momentum. So thank you for that.

Thank you. i I'm so I'm actually honored to be on here and grateful that there's a group of you who just go away with it, and rant. Yeah, absolutely. For

context, Jeff and I have sat in a lot of Red Dead circles together. So we're gonna start as we always do with a meditation, and then we'll get into our topic. So wherever you are listening, if you're driving, please keep your eyes open. Otherwise, you may close your eyes. And just notice the way that you're in contact with the ground, whether that's in a chair or standing

pay attention to the quality of your breathing. What do you notice

allow yourself to make some adjustments, either to your posture, or to your breath that feel good for you at this moment.

For those of you listening, consider your own relationship with your children, child. And I hope that through this exploration, you have insight into what is even more true for you, and what may be more possible.

And when you're ready, bring yourself back to our conversation.

So while we do a check in Jeff, just say, what's going on for us mentioned are its ages and names for context.

Currently. Good to be here. Thank you feel really excited. Of course, I'm nervous. I'll be upfront with that. But I know we'll get we'll get through this. I have three children of Jackson who just turned 20 Yesterday. I can't believe it then I can remember the day was born I never thought I would be able to those things kind of attire we lose that. But that's all linked. I remember that that energy I just stole a bit of it. Actually remember that more so than the other two? Not to deny to size important but that was a transformative part of my life. The Jackson Turn 20 Turn 20 Yesterday. Dangerous 16 and really be is our unit get a weapon.

Right on. Yeah. And then any like we do in our circles we're guiding you to do just checking how're things going? When's in wills?

What's going on? I think there's a there's a lot of wins right now. I'm enjoying I'm teaching a course through university in our in Canada here in diversity to teachers preparatory course on school leadership and educational leadership and up to a third time teaching it really enjoying it. I'm really feeling like they know what I'm doing. There's others a 10th of empowerment around that after the first two session, the last couple of years. I'm really enjoying and we'll be getting into it. I've had great feedback from the participants who are all educators and I'm learning a great deal I realize how much is serving me. And I never too old to learn things and in hearing different perspective, particularly the younger educators, and they're struggled and their joys are fantastic. I'm really I'm really vibing off of that. Yeah, it's been fantastic. The other teeth is Rosie that has been in the horse riding realm for last couple of years here. i We did our first sort of like father daughter five day away camp and what was beautiful like I remember the first time in 11 years that it was just her and I agree on any length of time. cellphones free. There's no health, everything was remote valley. But it was just beautiful just to be able to be there for her and not be not be distracted, not feel the need to connect with the outside. And it was just this unspoken, sort of like on the drive home. I recall looking over her and she's kind of nodding off. And I kind of just hit okay, like, thank you very much. This has been such a fantastic time for me to meet you down, she kind of leaned over and kind of kissed me. And it was just like, I just felt so great. So I'm coming into this during bowl with joy.

Yeah. Oh, sweet. Thank you. So yeah, this is Matt checking in my kids, our oldest daughter, she's six and a half. My younger son is he just turned three. For me what's most current is my wife has decided to go back to school. So she just started about a month and a bit ago. And it has added this layer of complexity in our commitments and juggling, that at first was extremely hard, and we knew that it was going to be that way. And it has also allowed for other things to emerge, which I couldn't have seen exactly which were things like her being able to let go a little bit of things that she typically likes to handle, like coordinating some social stuff for our kids. And now I'm holding that, and I actually enjoy that kind of thing. So it's, I'm able to take stuff off her plate, manage it not feel incompetent, but actually feel like I'm like I'm contributing to the family in this other way and I don't feel overwhelmed. So anything I can do to reduce her overwhelm and allow her to focus on her studies feels great. And I know we'll get into more stuff as we talk today I have some thoughts about what I might want to share about current stuff with my kids but I've been enjoying them recently and just allowing myself to be I have a new commitment to patients with them and staying kind so that has been going well so far. We'll see what happens with that over time. So cool. Why don't we jump into this topic, Jeff about our relationship to our children and I want to have a pass these questions around the first just like if you could tell us a bit about what you see is different between your relationship to your kids and the way that your partner relates to them

there's been a shift in the way that my relationship with the kids has been Orthology their topic I've gone from a kind of a co starring role to a secondary character kind of like Newman and shine style but I kind of tucked in as needed add some whatever sometimes i i met fit up until now they had to support there but I'm still stopped though. And that's not to I'm okay with that when the kids are having there's a social emotional issue catered usually the first go to and that wasn't always the case. What I what I do know the cue the the individuating that's gone on so Jackson's 20 You know I right now when he's becoming into a young adult becoming I am sort of like the I'm either advice on finding a job getting getting support with a car accident questions about taxes like those are the more applicable pieces in that my role plays with him because usually he will just say go talk to your dad like if you talk to dad about this then that's okay that's that's my my role is shifted from one of caregiver to like, you know, being there and getting kids what they need for the immediate needs to do more of a larger piece of either you need advice or give you tried that that's really been a big piece with with the boys particularly as James is coming through now puberty here. And so again, where again anyway which the Rosie though as a father daughter, it's a different relationship in itself she's slowly becoming entering puberty and so those kinds of questions tainted there Kate sort of a primary go to person and I recognize that that relationship is is different than I have with her and I think that's okay. I think what I've what I one commonality between all the kids that Kate and I have shared is that they know they can turn to either one of us and if we don't know we, I know problem restrain them together parenting number Stoker's going to doubt and answers for them though. We've been really We watch 15 years or so, we've been keen on working really well to become, can become complimentary parenting that neither one of us have to hold a whole bag. And that's really taken a lot of pressure off of me, I stopped, and it's made me be able to actually, when I'm called upon to do something, and I'm asked to step up as a parent down there fully, there isn't resentment. There's my God, here we go again, like I'm doing everything. And like, complimenting what Kate, Kate might be handling. That's, that's really been a big evolution. It continues to happen with our with a parent.

Nice. That's cool. One of the things that stood out and what you shared was, I guess I would name it as a distinction of what I hear your role is a little more like helping the kids orient in the world. And Kate's roles a little more like helping them orient within themselves. And I imagine with my wife, Sookie and I, we may find ourselves in a later plays, it's different with younger kids, I think, at our ages of six and a half and three. In my case, there's were still so much caregivers are so in that hearing of replays. And my what I noticed was Sookie as she has this kind of like, she can provide like the warm blanket feeling like when they go to her, there's this a way that she hugs them, that's very different than the way that I hugged them. And I think they sense that with her there is, you know, that literally, I'm going to be held, but also I'm going to be like, loved in this physical way. And if they want that in a moment, they may go to her for that with me. I noticed that my role has been, I can empathize. I don't have that warm embrace, like my wife does. But I tend to allow my empathy to show up as what is going on in my body. So I will remain calm. I will breathe. I will. I hope what happens because I can't prove this is that I am emanating in energy and to have acceptance in the moment when they're having a hard time whether or not they're actually looking to me for support, or if they're just in a hard moment. Like I feel like that's my role is to ground for myself and let that emanate. And I hopefully they feel that. And you know, there are times when I think they do and there are times I can't tell who there was there was a time when my son was having a tantrum. He wanted to play with a toy at the table, which we're not really okay with because it's a distraction. And I he was like full on resistant, I took him into his room and just sat with him. And it wasn't like this is not a timeout for you. This is this. It's time for us to just be together. Because what's happening over there isn't working. So I'm just going to be with you over here and let him have this feeling blocked the door and just like breathe. That's that's what it looks like when I do that kind of thing.

That's talking to another guy. No, go. No. Go ahead. Go ahead.

I was gonna go to the next question. But what did yeah,

yeah. Well, I didn't sing that. and silky. For her. It she handles those certain things a different way. What works for her because of her connection with the kids in a different way? Yeah. Is that is that?

Absolutely. Yeah. And it could be biological. It could be the feminine masculine through us? I don't know exactly. But it's different. Let's go to this next one, Jeff. So the question is, if anything, what do you regret about your relationship with your kids? Yeah.

I have really been working on going into the office, and they're really working on focusing on the now. I think what's happened is that I think the lips are important because they offer opportunity for learning. But I find that it's an insert thinking about what if I had done a fleet I become flooded with the Puritan shame and feelings of like, how they suck them up, like, you know, and I think that, that what I'm what I'm doing with my reading that I'm doing right now or whatever, I need to move past that. And so, and I still be lying to you if I didn't say I don't have regrets, but I think what I am trying to focus on is having a greater awareness of my boundaries and the clarity of my boundary. I think some of the some of the difficult situations that we've been through with a couple with a couple of our children. It sort of led to this third one Are my boundaries as an individual, as a person, as an individual person, as a period, those, those float to the top as well, there's a piece of the exam that, you know, Kate and I haven't always been clear about our individual boundary as a kid and bringing those together the parent cohesively, you know, and we talked about this at nauseam and we still struggle with is the guy in closed doors, we can disagree and have how we think we should move forward with whatever situation preventing a talk with wherever childish and not always have that can happen, that nothing is happening there. But when we move forward and find the children or a child, I think what, what we need to be always is always be mindful that we're working together, or together. So you know, you know, backstabbing, or those kinds of things. Were independent, unintentional, and I don't mean to state its purpose hooked, again, intentional, sort of that makes it difficult to to really then fade or then say why we had boundaries here. And it sounds like we weren't, we weren't together on that book. My why, why regrets are the times that I have, I have, you know, maybe pull the rug out from under cake? Or, you know, and that's tied with one of the choke that while you know, your mom doesn't mean that, you know, I don't know what she's talking about, either. I feel that that is, that's a recipe for lack of clarity. And it actually makes it confusing for children. Oh, so, you know, and I think it's okay for us to have differing opinions of parents as individuals. And yet, when when addressing a particular situation with a particular child, like, I believe that the clarity is kind, like, the only way through this, and as soon as we have these asides, or students I'm, you know, doing kind of I think that is confusing switch works, where the children are kids. And that would be one thing that I would definitely being more aware of. Yeah, yeah, that's definitely what I'm happy with.

Yeah, I mean, regret is a funny word. When I look back at all the times that I have lost my patience with my kids. Those are things that I could say, on the one hand, I regret. And, of course, I wouldn't have gotten to where I am now, like I mentioned the beginning, like I have a newfound practice. And willpower is kind of more enabled now around this, like, No, I'm here to be kind, I can still be strict, but I'm here to be kind, and respectful. So yeah, the times that I, I think I had my own adult sort of tantrum in their presence, and wasn't really playing the role of the elder one way or the other. I think, you know, transitions from getting out of the house to school had been triggering moments for me. And I tend to, I have this belief that we have to be on time, which isn't a bad thing. But it means something deeper to me, it I worry about us disrespecting the teachers. And then in the process, if I feel like I've said something clearly, and it's not happening, then I have this other thing that's totally mine. Some kids, it's totally my issue, which is, why aren't they respecting my voice? And it's this old stuff around like not being heard not feeling seen. Just feel like an invisible kid when that was my truth long time ago. So that's not my kid stuff. So for me to distinguish that is really important. Yeah, it's comes from more of that her place than that other part. So that's if there's regret there. That's it's going into that mode instead of holding to I mean, you said even being present. It's a big part of it as well.

Practice, practice in the moment. Oh my god. 20 times I just wanted to pull the parachute right, just by your courage.

Or yeah, or my version is just lose it. Just start yelling like, Well, I'm gonna shame you. Like, I'm just gonna tell you how this is not okay. You're not good enough in this moment. Yep, there's a version of that that I know is healthy. But what I was doing was not let's do another one, Jeff. So we'll distinguish this there's sort of like a longing you know, we can longing for something in a relationship. And I wanted to distinguish between now like today, what do we long for and also years out? What do we long for so let's start with that first one. Now in this current current age group current relationship. What more do you long for with your children?

I let Yeah. I think you'd love these last week. I I think particularly what I know that with Rosie cook, I think there's a difference there between there is a bit of a in I feel this my inner She was on Rosie and with the boys, there's a definite difference there, the masculine feminine energy is different. And so with Rosie, I just, I really like, what I longed for sort of currently is that she, you know, the dad that was there when she can app that, you know, I understand that she individuate and she matures, the next four to five years as a teenager, good, I might not be, I might not appear as a relatable choice to seek advice. You know, my judgment might, you know, around puberty and menstruation, dating, those kinds of things that kind of, I'm prepared for her to, however, if she were at me, and she burst seeking support, I definitely wouldn't. I mean, I would do the best I could, in listening. And not always being not offering advice, but just listening, but I know that he's going to be coming to an age where she can be looking to her mom, or that type of support. And, but I wanted longhairs to know that, you know, daddy loved him, and that your wife and Daddy will always be there. If you ever had questions or a concern, you know, with a boy that I want to be able to hold on to some relevance in their lives. As they get older. Again, the you know, they, they, you know, there's that emotional push away friends and become more of the orienting perspective. Yet the the attachment is, is more to peers, to moving forward in their life. You know, you know, they're gonna, they'll be making the, they'll be making tour and challenging decisions, and for themselves. And, again, I was guessing what the same thing that you know that I'm here that I'm safe and reliable person to share in this leak, the port, you can just go to less than the road working on this practice mode, not giving advice. Like, you can see the path of Dean for me to right away. If you're, if you're asking me, if you're talking to me, let me you want my advice, which I know now, that is not the case, notes that few people want that. They're asking for to be listened to. And so I just wanted to be able to have that with the boys. So if if in time when they have these interactive decisions that are not necessarily in their best interest, and may be a poor choice, that they know that, you know, God's been working on his judgment, and working to, you know, it serves no one when God holds judgment. And that they're able to feel safe enough to say, Hey, Dad, like, this is what happened. And I'm wondering how I, you know, you I need you to listen, you need it to listen, or hey, I do need advice. What do you think, I think having relevant, as the boys start to push further away, which is a natural part of that that growth part, then, in fact, I want I want that I do want that I just long that that that I'm still relevant in that time period of their life.

Yeah, it's so interesting to listen to you, Jeff, because you have this like lens of my future in a way, and a version of it. So I'm grateful for that. So let's see, for me, in my current relationship with my kids, I'll start with the young guy, first three years old. I think like this is totally within reach. I think I longed for more like he's a very physical being much more so than I think I ever was his age. And I longed for ways to help him, explore that physicality and harness his all of his big energy in a way that I can be there with him. And like an example, this one time we were at the park. And it happened that there were a bunch of bounce houses that just got put up, and they happen to be available for everyone to play on. So we went to one of them. And it was like this gauntlet on where you jump on. And then you have to walk through these things and climb up this part and then slide down a thing. And he was really curious, and I let him go first. That was one thing I was like, You're gonna go first, I'll be right here. And it was so fun to watch him. He just needed my help like one or two times to just get through an overall thing. But is the look on his face was amazing. He was just in heaven. And I think, well, I know that there will be later times where I will not it won't be appropriate for me to be right next to him in that physicality. I do want there to be this camaraderie that he feels now as he's exploring that because I think he's, he's got a way in which he can turn on a dime and and say, forget it. I'm done. I want to be there at those moments so he can feel at least that it's okay to be frustrated and maybe keep going or maybe choose not to use with my daughter. We have real depth in conversation, which I really appreciate. Like she's, I find her to be very observant, and very holistic minded. And it's really fun to speak with her. She like, years ago, she'd asked me about death. And we would talk for a long time. And so there's like some real curiosity there. Where I think I can I went along for with her at this age is, it's really about my ability to let go a little bit of my control so that in areas where she's curious, like she actually likes to help out around the house, which I know is not natural for every child. But she's there, she brings out interests. And there are times when I'm not patient enough to slow down and take the time to either just let her and let that play out in its own time. Or, yeah, there's just there's some ways in which you want to give her a little more ways to play. And to me, that's about mutual respect, that I think she's coming to play a role in the family. And I respect her for that. And I need to really bring that respect into more of a practice where I can allow her to play and fail. And that's what's gonna happen.

How hard that piece is that I resonate with that piece around? I haven't got time to let you date in the in the ongoing family. It's just not in my Yeah, I feel that Matthew definitely has experienced that. He's got to get going here like, yeah,

it's just easier. Yeah,

it's just easier mopping the floor. Oh, is day like, Oh, yeah. Like that. Just Daddy, do you know? That that at the Teach For sure.

Let's see. So we have two more questions, and we'll do our checkout. And then just noticing the time. So I want to make sure we roll through these and honor what wants to be said. So the next question is about that future, you know, years out from now, what kind of relationship do we longed for, with our kids

to think I want to be present in their life. And I think that comes by through curiosity. So I don't think that there's too much of a conscious awareness, it sort of is the next stage of parenthood for me. Like, as a kid growing adulthood, their lives get busier, they get more complicated and to varying degrees, they're stressed to their wives, or to feel it. But it's important that they know that I'm always a source of support and guidance, no matter what. And, you know, perhaps through financial cleaning, if necessary, but that they know that they can always turn for help. And parenting, I realized that the parenting is for life. Like once they leave Jaipur living at home for about two years now. But once they leave, it isn't over. It's just a different evolution of parenting. And I might argue, it might be trickier than when they were young, when they were at home in the house. They knew it was going on content communication. Now, it's now it's a different sort of thing. It's no thing a text message, hey, how you doing have groups in a couple of days like being you know, generally exterior? And trying to have that connection? So yeah, I long for just being present in their lives. That I'm always that I'm that I'm here. And and not, not always wait for them to be the one to reach out. Sometimes. The recognition of, hey, I'm here, how's it going? It's checking in, can be 10 Second 10 Second message that that is important for me. Yeah, being a part of their, their, their growth, as even as even into into their 20s and 30s.

Nice, thank you. Let's say for me, with my little guy. I think because I have had this with my daughter, I long for some of that deep conversation with him. Like I want to have conversations and it's just age appropriate at this point. He's still forming sentences. I long for that, like back and forth communication, where I can dig in with him and ask them on board about what he's curious about in the world and what's going on for him personally. You know, now it's like, Dad, do you like vanilla? And I'm like, yeah, like vanilla and chocolate. And he's like, whoa. So that's, that's a start. We'll build on that. With my daughter, I long for her independence, you know, years from now that we can be spending quality time together by choice. Like I think of the way you've talked about your older kids, when she's a teenager, like I don't want to have to be there all the time. I'm still there to support but I want our time together to be consciously chosen and appreciate it. Like I know she'll have time Whether they're friends or books, hobbies, etc. But I still want to have occasional, like, Daddy daughter days. And that's, you know, we'll see. And there'll be a time where it's possible. She may not want that. So I would navigate that, but I hope that that that connection is still there.

Oh, yeah, I hear I hear you on that. I mean, these five days, I had too much work to do. I was away. I didn't have the internet, any cell service. But man like those were, I feel closer to my daughter than I have no, wow, I didn't. It was just that, like you said, just that connection that. Hopefully the strings are there. As they get older, they make decisions and choices. And yeah, yeah. Wonderful, beautiful, man. Yeah.

Last question. Before we do our checkout, what do you proud of in your current relationship with your kids?

What I'm what I've come to is the importance of equity. So fairness is not an equity, in my opinion, to the difference in the thing, but equity, equity in each child gets what they need. It doesn't look the same for the child. I don't I don't connect with the child the same way. Purposely. And I know there's been times I've been called out well, it becomes around staring at and so we've had conversation particularly with Jackson and how Jackson view that I you know, that I'm that I don't see him barely they'll be with James. Our our conversation couple weeks ago was I think, I don't really understand fairness, because fairness is sort of ideal. Where doesn't really Yeah, you can all get $4 But it doesn't mean that you're gonna be able to spend that how would it 24 hours or 20? Oh, but the thing is, we're always too rosy towards Mr. Rosy is like, that's a hell of a lot of money. Yeah, the fuck dad? Where's the Jacksons? Like, dad's like, short. All right. So I the idea of fairness doesn't really the equity, in fact does. So I kind of take that approach to how I'm how I interact with the kids and in hopefully, be able to provide what they need, whether it's emotional, or if it is finance or if it is just any year. I think that that's what it comes to the importance of the of that of, of equity. And and it's a struggle, because I think the idea of fairness is a tough thing to navigate. Because right away, yeah, can you do judge thing on fairness, but giving them what they need in the situation is most important? Yeah, I want to honor those different good. They're my electric, they're unique with each child. And so those should be how le interact with equity. Yeah, that's, that's, that's kind of kind of what I'm most proud of about my relationship with each of the kids. I

just want to call out how cool it is that, you know, what, two years ago, or two years ago, it would have been less common to hear the range that you just mentioned, between like financial and emotional support. Like, how cool that we're getting to that place where dads don't have to just be thought of as a wallet. You know, there's a lot more that can be offered. And thank goodness when it is so thank you for that part of your dad heard. Thank you for meeting. Um, yeah, I'm proud of. So I do a lot of I encourage a lot of connection and joy through singing and dancing in my home. And so this is like, helping them get their wiggles out before bedtime. I might, you know, we might play on the trampoline, I might put on a song or two. And it's like we've been dancing to music like Justin Timberlake Can't stop the feeling from the Trolls soundtrack for the show called Giganotosaurus, that they both know like the words of the song. So I'm really diggin that. That's like, pretty recent thing. And then yeah, like, singing with them. My dad used to play guitar and sing John Denver songs. And there's so much nostalgia there for me. And now that like, there was the other day when my wife was out because she works late sometimes. My daughter came into the room when I was putting him to bed and she's like, can we sing a song? I was like, okay, and we somehow some I don't know who came up with that. We started singing country roads, by John Denver. And it was like now it's like, almost every night we've been doing it for like last week or two. And it feels so good to me. And they know enough of the words where they're excited. I hear my son singing it on random times when he's playing alone. So that's like bringing that into the family. I'm like, this is like years of life skills, whether it's karaoke someday or not like just to be able to be in touch with the voice of my own voice as a singer my own body as a dancer, life skill for sure.

Oh, Matthew, I'm feeling really worn by that because I I recall those moments that I recall the joy Jeff experiencing joy because other kids are getting older and feeling that there's a there's a loss of joy like what does it need to feel joy like I really think there's it's a fight for another time but the larger piece of joy the simple joy to dancing and singing like no one's there like no one cared that was really that really started to shift with the kid got older so I go embrace that. Oh god yeah, go country roll. Yeah. Good old JD

Yeah yeah, I could talk about John Denver. Yeah. So checkouts let's name Yeah, what's alive in us right now anything to pull away from today's conversation as a way to close up

correctly actually charged. I'm actually charged like positive energy like hearing that story. And case sharing your son sitting outside the sandbox thinking because the road you're inside doing the dishes, but you've got it. I feel like that energy just like that, just, you know, chuckle and the connection. So thank you for ending on that. I'm bringing this joy into my and into my, into my day today. I'm gonna be James with afternoon we got some work around the house to do that. And I don't know if you'll think that your growth but I don't know. But But anyway, I want to thank thank you for this opportunity to to share with you today. Oh, yeah. Thanks, Jeff.

For me, I'll check out with it. You know, it's always great to be able to speak to these things. It always deepens my practice as a dad. And then also, I think I gleaned from you this, that whole thing around equity versus fairness. Like, for me, I'm holding it as each of my kids has different needs. So it's not about a blanket, everyone gets this. I really have to pay attention to their individuality. And that's a way of honoring them. Even if they see it as unfair I can I'll find a way to let them know what I think is really going on when I help them individually in different ways.

Giving the NFT like the kids know, like that's not fair. You're not yet but in the end, they know that they're in that they need if they're not getting what they need that you can work within Yeah, yeah. Geofoam