Travis Michael Fleming and Dr. Paul D. Miller engage in a thought-provoking dialogue concerning the intricate dynamics of Christian nationalism and its implications for contemporary ministry.

The face the difficult question on the necessity for Christians to thoughtfully navigate the political landscape without succumbing to tribalism, particularly in light of the alarming statistic that 80% of pastors feel ill-equipped to address political and civic engagement.

Dr. Miller gives some helpful and crucial distinctions, emphasizing the importance of acknowledging legitimate grievances while maintaining a critical stance against the co-opting of the Gospel for political ends. As we delve into practical strategies for fostering civil dialogue within congregations, we are reminded of our calling to confront the idolatries inherent in both political affiliations and societal narratives. This conversation serves as a clarion call for ministry leaders to cultivate a holistic discipleship that encourages critical engagement with the culture, thereby reinforcing the transformative power of faith in the public sphere.

Takeaways:

• The conversation highlights the complexities surrounding Christian nationalism, emphasizing the need for thoughtful engagement with its underlying grievances.
• Dr. Paul Miller's insights reveal the importance of distinguishing between legitimate concerns and harmful political ideologies within the Christian community.
• Pastors are encouraged to cultivate an environment of open dialogue in their congregations regarding political and social issues, rather than adhering to a singular partisan line.
• The podcast stresses that Christians should not allow their faith to be co-opted by tribalism or political allegiance, as this undermines the core tenets of the Gospel.
• A call to action for church leaders to equip their communities with a robust understanding of civic engagement that honors God without succumbing to idolatries.
• The discussion underscores the necessity of holistic discipleship, urging churches to move beyond superficial engagement and foster deeper moral formation among their members.

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Today's conversation is brought to you by TJ and Nikki Chase.

Thank you for serving the body of Christ.

When Christians turn our faith into a tribe and act just like every other tribal group in the world.

Again, you're trivializing the faith.

I think you're misunderstanding the gospel.

Welcome to Apollo's Watered in the Ministry Deep Dive podcast.

We tackle the big questions few are willing to ask about ministry, culture and the challenges you face every day.

Ministry is hard and the road ahead isn't always clear.

But with God, nothing is impossible.

We come alongside pastors and ministry leaders like you, exploring obstacles, uncovering opportunities, and sharing practical ways to thrive.

Our vision is simple to see thriving ministry leaders and churches noticeably transforming their world.

So let's dive deep together.

Refresh your soul, renew your vision and get ready because it's watering time time.

Welcome back.

Today we have the second part of my conversation with Dr. Paul Miller about Christian nationalism and specifically his book the Religion of American Greatness.

If anybody out there is trying to find a great text on understanding the contours of Christian nationalism and then this is the book for you.

As I said last week, it's probably there's probably not a better person or better book to really delve into the subject with.

And for those who need a refresher and want to know who Dr. Paul Miller is, you haven't listened to that conversation that I would encourage you to do that right away because he's a pretty phenomenal guy.

He holds a PhD from Georgetown and is professor of the Practice of International affairs at Georgetown School of Foreign Service.

He spent a decade in public service, including the National Security Council, the CIA, and the US Army.

His writing has appeared in Foreign affairs, the Washington Post, Providence Magazine, the Gospel Coalition, and so many more.

He's also the author of Just War and Ordered Liberty.

This topic, Christian nationalism, is extremely important because here's why.

80% of pastors have said that they don't know how to engage or discuss politics and civic engagement.

He helps us to guide us to see how to navigate this this minefield that's all around us.

Today.

We are discussing how to even approach the topic.

He gives us some pointers and things to pay attention to in our conversation.

And I want you to pay attention to some of the stuff that we talk about today, like distinguishing labels from beliefs, extremely important, acknowledging legitimate concerns and pain points without endorsing genealogies.

Don't feel like you have to argue all the time.

A person wants to be heard and then you can repeat back to them what they said to you in a way that they themselves will agree with it.

Then you they know you understand.

And that actually opens up the door for dialogue.

And we also have to be on guard as we hear this conversation.

And one of the things that he talks about, the tribalism warnings, he talks about not having blind loyalty to our political parties and endorsing everything that they say.

We are called as Christ followers to confront idolatries no matter where they're at, whether if they're in our party or some other party or just something else altogether.

It could be in the church.

We have to call out any argument that seeks to attach itself to the church or the Gospel of Jesus that seeks to co opt it for its own purposes with we have to call that out.

Now I've had many people ask me my views concerning Charlie Kirk and his memorial.

I've decided not to address that on the podcast, but I will on my substack.

So please be sure to check that out.

I think you will find my response helpful.

And remember those for those who want to learn how to engage the culture in a way that honors God and is sensitive to their people, then our next Blueprint Cohort is for you.

And it's coming up very soon.

This is the final time to set up, but we will have another one coming up in the next several weeks.

The cohort is based on my book Blueprint Kingdom Living in the Modern World.

We'll meet for six weeks on Wednesdays from 12 noon to 1pm starting October 1, and for just $49, you'll get interactive teaching and discussion to help you apply the Blueprint framework, navigate culture and grow in Kingdom.

Discernment spots are limited to 10, so sign up today.

The link is in the show notes.

With that in mind, let's get to my conversation with Dr. Paul Miller.

You're asking, how do you engage with a Christian nationalist?

Or how do I engage with the belief?

For many of them that may not identify as Christian nationalists, but they see some of the public benefits that have been brought on by certain political pieces for themselves as a corrective to gender confusion, the ideology, the secularization of things, they're like, finally, someone with common sense is doing something that is normal.

How do we respond to that?

Well, I think it's always important to tell the truth.

Even so, I think it's important to recognize the legitimate grievances that are motivating some of the Christian nationalist movement, some of the MAGA movement.

And some people are hesitant to do that because as soon as you start to Validate it.

It sounds like you're blessing or giving, giving endorsement to the whole movement.

And that's, you know, not what, what I'm doing.

I try to share in the book, in my book that I, I share many of the concerns that animated Christian nationalism.

I don't like.

I'm not a liberal, I'm not a progressive.

I don't agree their agenda, I don't vote for their candidates and I don't like the direction that they would take things.

But sometimes the cure is worse than the disease.

And I worry that the Christian nationalism, they don't even recognize the kind of damage that they are doing in process of trying to respond to those legitimate grievances.

There's an attitude prevalent on both sides of the aisle of tribal loyalty on the right, no enemies to the right, on the left, no enemies to the left.

If you believe that you're going to turn a blind eye to all the bad things that your side is going to do.

That's why Christian nationalists are fellow travelers with white nationalists, with racists and bigots, with the alt right, with a lot of anti Semitic movements and groups, with the proud boys with the Oath Keepers.

It's why Christian nationalists were shoulder to shoulder with the insurrectionists on January 6th.

And they should be ashamed of that.

They are covered in shame for all forever because they allowed themselves to be there in contrast to the tribal mindset.

I remember Jesus saying, look at the plank in your own eye before you complain about the speck of dust in the other's eye.

I think it's actually really, really important to examine yourself and your side for, for errors, for faults, for mistakes and for dangers.

My book is not the only one, and not the first one about Christian nationalism, but it might be the only one from within the kind of community of the old Christian right.

Most of the other books you'll read are by secular progressive journalists and they're not terribly helpful because they don't truly understand what's going on inside this movement.

They paint with an overbroad brush.

Their accusations are a little over the top.

And I could go on about the problems with those books.

I felt a calling Anita Burden to try to offer a measured, even loving critique of Christian nationalism kind of from within the broad tent on the right.

Because if we don't do it, who will?

And you really trust the critique coming from the other side.

I don't think you can.

So I think it's actually really important.

I think it is an important public service and it's important act of loving self rebuke to engage in this kind of self scrutiny.

And that is not an easy thing.

It is just not.

That's a reality that I know that my brothers out there that are pastoring churches, they have to face that reality.

And so how do we help lead them?

We want to speak the truth in love, we want to be bold.

But we have real world issues that they're going to have to be able to identify with.

So we need to equip them with the language and the perspective that they're going to need.

We're not saying don't do it, do it.

But you have to understand there is going to come at a cost.

And again, suffering for the kingdom of God.

How do we help then equip them with that?

So as I'm sure you know, so much of this was supercharged by, by Covid and it seems like the whole country went kind of crazy during COVID it.

There's a great sifting, I think, in a lot of churches where people just decided to up and leave since the church is shut down.

Like a great time to go shopping and go find another church that meets more my preferences and my tastes.

And so some of the churches that were ready to turn themselves into maga churches, that was their signal to go full bore.

I think your question is, what advice would I give to pastors who want to start speaking more holistically on this?

If you have been to this point, the more quietistic church, you only speak on abortion and marriage and nothing else, but you feel the calling to maybe speak more broadly on social and political issues and you recognize that it may anger some of your congregants.

I don't think that you do that by standing up one day.

Turn to your Bibles and to Romans, chapter 13.

Let me read the text where Paul preaches on civil government.

And now let me tell you why Trump is bad, right?

Probably not the best way to go about this.

No, no.

One thing that my church has done, they invited me to give a Sunday school, adult Sunday school hour for a month and a half, two months, where I worked through the biblical texts on political theology.

And I kind of built from the ground up, piece by piece, a holistic picture of what the Bible says about the doctrine of civil government, about political theology and a lot of it, you know, and I was doing it at a layman's level.

So I've read Augustine and I've read Calvin and I've read Tyrann.

But that's not what the Sunday school is about.

The Sunday School was about scripture.

It was about what does the Bible say about polities.

And I was reading it very consciously through a kind of a reformed covenantal lens.

So that's the tradition in which, which I am in my church is.

And I've had the opportunity to do that at other churches as well.

I think this might be a good model for churches, not necessarily starting out from the pulpit, but starting out in whether you call it Sunday school or course seminar or some kind of parallel group.

Yes, yeah.

Bible study.

A parallel educational track where you can dwell deeply on the Bible's political teachings without it turning into partisanship, without it turning into single issue stuff where you're really trying to think about what God says about human governments broadly.

That might be a good way to approach building a broader ministry on social and political issues.

Well, and as you, you just mentioned, hopefully your Sunday school class doesn't result in your, your class where people are yelling at one another to bring him down.

Honestly though, I'd kind of rather have that than to have it papered over.

I hear sometimes calls for unity.

We must have unity.

Let's avoid the divisive issues and have unity.

That's not unity.

Exactly, thank you.

It's very shallow, papered over unity where you're ignoring the realities that are there in the congregation.

We've got people in the congregation who think that it's a sin to vote for any Democrat.

And I know we've got people who vote Democrat who disagree with that.

I'd rather have them in a room yelling at each other.

To be honest, like be honest with each other and hash it out.

I think that would be actually quite healthy for the church.

Well, in my church, that's exactly what we had.

At least we tried to.

It was hard because so many people came from their politics, not necessarily from one policy.

It was sometimes family loyalty.

It was their, their vocation, it was their history.

It wasn't just one single issue.

And I, I know, as you said before, that there are those that are out there that do vote that way.

And of course I've had so many different people say, don't ever talk about politics.

Don't ever talk about politics.

No, I'm sorry.

But God has to be greater than our politic.

And if God's created this, this tool, this sphere, we have to be able to know how it operates and know that our own understanding is really limited.

Which is why we need to be able to, to discern, to understand, to interact, to converse, to dialogue.

But what I'm finding is with many different people on both sides of the aisle, they've gone into a certain kind of enemy mode where there is no quarter, there is no, no neutrality, that you have to agree with our position, hook, lion and sinker.

And people are being drawn, people in our churches are being drawn into that type of rhetoric.

So I understand teaching at some type of Sunday school or some type of level to help aid in that, but what should the posture be as we're seeking to have this kind of dialogue within our churches and how can we keep it civil?

You're right that people have been drawn towards a kind of almost a wartime mindset.

The battle lines have been drawn.

You can't give an inch.

To agree or concede anything is to compromise with evil.

And that is the fruit of demagoguery.

And I'm using that word in a very specific sense.

We have demagogues in our body politic.

Trump is one.

But honestly, most TV news anchors are as well.

And people are choosing to allow themselves to be discipled by demagogues when they spend hours a day watching TV or scrolling social media, hours a day doing this stuff.

And it affects what kind of mindset you then bring to social, cultural and political issues.

If you drink from that, well, it's going to get into your bloodstream and you yourself will then become a puppet of the demagoguery.

You will echo it.

You're just going to amplify that signal.

And that's what people are bringing into these conversations with their family, with their neighbors, with the people in the pews at church in front of them.

So turn off the tv, delete social media.

I think that's step one.

It really is.

You've got to choose to be discipled by something different.

Be discipled by your pastor.

What a thought.

Be discipled by your friends, your family, your neighbors, your older brothers and sisters in Christ.

Be discipled by more reliable or more substantive outlets of information.

People sometimes ask me, what news?

Where do I get my news?

I don't recommend one particular outlet, but I do recommend a different medium.

Print.

Read, don't watch, read.

I think that anything that you read, whether it be a newspaper or magazine, is going to engage more of your brain and less of your emotions.

Social media and TV are media designed to make you feel emotions, not engage your brain.

It's actually different parts of the brain that deal with this.

Right.

And so if you just simply read more and watch less, you will be a more well trained citizen to engage in this kind of dialogue.

I'm rambling now, what was your actual question?

No, no, no, you're doing fine.

But I actually have a different question for those.

Like we talked about being pastors of a church and then having people in our congregation that we want to be able to equip, to be able to handle a variety of these issues in a civil way, but the opposite is true.

What do we do if we're in churches where the pastoral leadership has, has been caught up in the, in the current of political thought and partisanship?

How do we help our churches?

I mean, do we just leave or do we try to make a difference right where we're at?

Or is it a case by case basis?

Yeah, my first instinct is to say yes, leave.

If your church leadership is taking your church to be a partisan church, a MAGA church, or a rainbow church on the other side, if your whole church identity is just about preaching the partisan line, you should leave that church.

Because I don't think it's probably not a true church.

Perhaps some people don't have a choice where they have long standing loyalties and they think that they need to die on that hill.

If you feel you're called to that, if the Lord really wants you there to die on that hill, just be ready for a lot of suffering, a lot of heartache, a lot of, a lot of broken relationships and be prepared to die on that hill and not win.

Right, Because God promises to protect his church, the invisible eternal church.

He doesn't promise to protect your local congregation.

You know what I mean?

Like, congregations die, congregations go off the rails, congregations fall prey to false teaching.

And so if you really feel called to stay there and be the last witness, you may be the last person standing and they might just, you know, win over against what you're trying to do.

So be prepared for that.

It's not fun.

Is Christian nationalism, can we call it a heresy.

Taken to its logical extreme?

Yes.

I want to be very careful how I say that because as you said earlier, not everybody who is a Christian nationalist knows it.

They don't use that label of themselves.

And for a lot of people in the pews, their Christian nationalism is more a attitude comportment.

I think this is a misuse of scripture, but I don't think this is a heresy by itself.

And if you've got this in your house, I'm not going to call you a heretic.

I might call you in need of careful teaching about how to handle scripture.

I might call this foolish, but not a heresy.

You know what?

It's a heresy is Storming the US Capitol with Christian music playing and arm in arm with the proud boys and white nationalists and saying, this is what God wills.

No, he doesn't.

And it's a heresy to say so.

That's a heresy.

So when you take it to its final conclusion, the most extreme version, that's idolatrous, and it's wrong.

It's false teaching.

It's heresy.

How do we then cultivate a proper patriotism in our churches?

Do we honor veterans?

Do we have flags?

Do we sing America the Beautiful?

Yeah, great question.

First thing I'd say is patriotism is good.

I think patriotism has the best bulwark against nationalism.

You don't get rid of nationalism by, like, denying any positive thing at all for the nation.

No, you actually cultivate a healthy gratitude for the home you grew up in.

You know, the Bible tells us to be thankful in all things, for all things, and let's be grateful for the blessings of living in America.

I wore the flag.

I served my country.

I'm very proud to have done so.

Don't really like Lee Greenwald's country hymn.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I'm proud to be an American.

Yeah, I don't.

Because honestly, patriotism should be about gratitude more than pride.

It really should be.

And if you're grateful for America, you want to make it a better place, and you want to make it a better place for everyone, for all people, not just for your tribe.

So that's a good, healthy patriotism.

Now, how much should the church play a role in that?

I think it should preach the truth about civil government and should publicly pray for our leaders and rulers of all parties.

I think that's entirely fine.

I'm a little standoffish about public displays of patriotism in churches just because the American church, the white American church, has gotten this so wrong for so long.

For centuries, actually, we've gotten this wrong.

So I'm inclined to try to really keep an arm's distance.

In my church, we don't have the American flag inside the sanctuary.

We don't sing American hymns.

We don't sing God Bless America on Memorial Day.

I think maybe during the pastoral prayer, they prayed to thank God for America and for veterans and their work, and that's about all we do at my local church, and I feel comfortable with that.

Anything more, I would want to be standoffish about that when we're talking about.

The subject of nationalism.

Thank you.

That answer, by the way.

It's good to get that nuance and help our people where they're at this isn't a new movement in that it's not unique to Christianity.

One of the things that I heard you give in a lecture and I've written on this before, I heard you say that nationalism is not unique to the United States, but we see other movements like Sayyid Khatub talking in Egypt, saying we're anywhere Islam is, and there's not a majority, that it's their obligation to instill Sharia law.

We see the same a lot right now with India.

There is the question on Hinduism and it becoming the national religion of India, Buddhism, Thailand.

So why is it important to have at least that awareness that there are other groups that are out there that are doing similar things?

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think in some ways, the most profound book of the age on this topic is Francis Fukuyama's book Identity Identity.

I think the subtitle is the Demand for Dignity and the Politics of Resentment.

And he says that all of these movements are manifestations of the same basic impulse, which is the demand for dignity and recognition.

When the poor do it, we call it socialism or communism.

When Muslims do it, we call it Islamism or jihadism.

And when ethnic groups do it, we call it racism or identity politics.

And when Christians do it, we call it Christian nationalism.

It's all manifestations of the same underlying impulse.

I, as a group member, demand that you recognize my group and give my group status, dignity and privileges.

And if you don't, I'm going to get mine no matter what, even if it means treating other groups unfairly.

And that's the demand for dignity and the politics of resentment.

Christians are now American, white American Christians are essentially acting just like every other group in the world.

Listen to what I just said.

Acting just like every other group in the world.

That should be an indictment.

We shouldn't act like just like every other group in the world.

We should be better than that.

We should not act just like every other secular interest group out for our group privileges.

That's a shame that people can say that about American Christians.

We're turning Christianity into a tribal identity, into an inherited ethnicity.

And shame on you if you think the gospel can be turned into an inheritable identity.

No, it's an attitude of the heart.

It is God's calling, and it is our repentance and our faith above all else, available to all people in all times, in all cultures of all beliefs, all backgrounds, all religions, all ethnicities.

Not all religions, but you know what I mean.

And when Christians turn our faith into a tribe and act just like every other tribal group in the world.

Again, you're trivializing the faith.

I think you're misunderstanding the gospel.

I'm in full agreement as you've talked about how it's been utilized and as Hunter had said to me, that government is the only sphere where violence is legitimate, is allowed.

Legitimate, you know, given legitimacy, we're allowed.

And that's why so many people are gravitating toward it, because they feel like they've tried to do the sacrifice, the suffering, and it hasn't worked.

Therefore, they're willing to compel my, my question because I've interacted with some people that have that mindset and some people online, they've come to me and they say, why shouldn't we try to.

It's the best model that's out there.

Why can't we use it?

Well, for one, you can't instrumentalize it.

Then it becomes something less than actually it is.

But how do we then help our government see and maintain some basic semblance of common, I'm going to say common sense morality.

And I have to be very careful in saying that because it's not common sense to everybody out there.

But I'm going to say what has been generally accepted in America over time.

How do we help?

I mean, what kind of morality foundation do we have?

I mean, yes, we have government, we have laws, but again, laws stop or restrict vice, don't enable virtue per se.

And to me you have to have some type of moral foundation to do that.

But the question then becomes is how do you bring about that type of moral foundation if it's not by executive fiat or through government, it has to be then through the people.

And this is, to me, one of the reasons why we do this show is because the church in my mind is one of the most powerful entities, especially the local church.

And these pastors, they're doing God's work and they're helping bring about formation, transformation, the way that God wants us to bring his kingdom and show the reality of his kingdom.

However, that question remains in so many people's minds.

How do we create then some type of moral formation if we don't have a moral formation standard to point to?

Yeah, there's a lot in there.

Yeah, I think you're more or less asking sort of what's the right answer?

What's the right stance towards politics?

And how do we disciple the next generation of Christians to engage with their Christian and non Christian neighbor for a common political endeavor?

That's more or less what your question is.

Let me answer that, but I'm going to rewind quite a bit.

Okay.

Because there's another question you haven't quite asked, but I want to answer it.

And it kind of leads into this.

Got it.

You've said a couple times that Christian nationalists, you know, we tried the engagement and it didn't work.

So now we got to go try the Christian nationalism.

I don't think we actually tried because of what you said about the.

What we talked about the fundamentalists and how a century of Christians kind of disengaged from politics.

He shared the anecdote about the.

I think it's the Lyman brothers who divested and spent all their money on evangelism.

Well, guess what that means.

It means that for a century we haven't had evangelical foundations.

Evangelical foundations giving out research grants to support Christian scholarship, for example.

I happen to know about that.

Lack.

Right.

And Christian colleges, universities are less well endowed.

They have less, fewer resources.

They don't have as much oomph behind them as a lot of their secular counterparts.

There's less of a network, an infrastructure, a lattice work of support to support a holistic discipleship of Christian citizens in America, if that makes sense.

And I think that is kind of the fundamentalist legacy.

Right.

It was a choice they made to stop doing a lot of that stuff.

So now your question is, what's the right answer?

I can give you an intellectual answer.

The intellectual answer is natural law, but the social, cultural, political answer is build those institutions.

Re engage.

Honestly, if anybody out there listening to this is a billionaire, I've got a list for you of things you could give your money to.

Yeah.

First Apollos watered.

Yeah, there you go.

Yeah.

I mean, it is these kinds of social institutions that are doing kind of a discipleship work, a holistic discipleship work.

Not just kind of personal morality, but a holistic person.

We need to talk about holistic human flourishing and the institutions that shape humans across all dimensions of humanity.

And all those institutions include churches.

They include schools, universities, charities, civil society organizations, a scouting organization like My Girls Participate in American Heritage Girls.

I think it's a great institution.

That's an example of it.

So things like that are the institutions that shape people.

We need money to flow to those institutions to do the shaping so people can grow up and engage.

Now, the theological answer is natural law.

That's the common morality.

You ask, where's the common sense morality?

The theological term for common sense morality is natural law.

Again, Catholics understand this.

Protestants still learning.

But In Romans chapter 2, the apostle Paul talks about Gentiles who have the law written on their hearts, as opposed to Jews who received the law revealed by God through Moses, the Gentiles.

All humans have God's moral law written on their hearts.

That's a theological statement direct from Scripture and we can appeal to that today.

In 21st century America, people talk about self evident truths of human rights.

You know, we call it self evident truth.

We call that natural law.

Most people don't use the language of natural law, but most people believe in natural law because they believe in rights.

Rights are nothing if not an emanation from natural law.

Common sense morality.

I believe you have the right to life.

And this is self evidently true.

It's not because pragmatically I'm refraining from murdering you.

It's because I believe you have the right to life.

You're a human.

And that is a common sense morality.

The Golden Rule is a universal moral principle.

Five centuries before Jesus, Confucius preached the Golden Rule and wrote it down in the Analects.

And the Hindu scriptures have a version of the Golden Rule and Muhammad had a version of the Golden Rule.

Everybody has a version of the Golden Rule.

That's a universal moral ethic.

So the next time you're talking to a secular progressive, start with the Golden Rule, they will agree with you and build from there a broader ethic of how we ought to treat each other in public political society.

That is the effort of building politics anew on the basis of natural law.

To expand that a little bit further, you were talking about fundamentalism.

We had talked about that.

And one of the things that I, in the series that I did, I wrote on modernity when the gospel became a formula.

And the idea is, is how the gospel had shifted from this understanding holistically of one's life, justification, sanctification, glorification.

And it was reduced to justification only.

And so the church has in some respect been caught up in the, the tsunami of modernity itself.

In order to stay relevant, you know, following the Robert Schuller kind of mindset and various other schools that have come after that, what I think we're seeing is a movement to recover this idea of formation and catechesis, understanding that our people need to be discipled in a holistic manner.

And it's not just the salvific message on a Sunday morning.

It is to equip the saints to do the work of the ministry.

And that's requiring, I think, many different pastors and leaders to start to go back and say, wait a minute, we need to understand in a deeper way, because what we've inherited is not working in this pluralistic culture in which we find ourselves, because many of us had been schooled in a Christendom culture where Christianity pretty much dominated the cultural topography, where it gave at least a position in a common language for us to work through.

However, I think that there's a shift, and this is where I think, and you mentioned holistic and the idea of flourishing.

Missioholism is what we've articulated, and we're actually borrowing from early church history and the mission field and bringing it to bear upon Western culture and to say, can we take the missionary lenses that have been developed on the mission field and in the first few centuries and then place that as we look to the Scriptures?

The Scriptures are the foundation we believe in.

The word of God is inerrant, is infallible.

It teaches us the truth of who Christ is.

But it has to be able to, or we have to, as pastors, to preach the whole counsel of God's Word, and it will help our people know how to survive.

And I think what you're seeing is you said a pruning.

I think there is a pruning.

I also think that Christian nationalism that you talked about earlier, it's not about the expansion of the Christian faith.

It's being used as a political tool to prop it up.

And taking into consideration, like Michael Graham and Jim Davis's work, the great detourching, where 40 million people have stopped going to the church in the last 25 years, which is more people that have left the church than have come to Christ in the first Great Awakening, the Second Great Awakening, and all of the Billy Graham Crusades combined.

So I think there is a massive shift that's going on, but I think it's an opportunity for the church to go forward, but not in that privileged cultural position, but in one as a countercultural sign of the reality of the new creation being lived out among God's people.

So I just want to say kudos.

I wanted to expand that a little bit.

You got any response?

I mean, feel free to tell me I'm a heretic.

I don't think so.

No, no, no, no.

I just want to say amen to everything.

You may have heard this old sort of aphorism that the wise man is the man who spends his last day on Earth planting trees, right?

He knows that he'll never see the fruits of it, but that's what a wise man does.

He plants, he invests in the future, in the long, long Long term future.

That's, I think, what a lot of discipleship ought to look like.

I feel like our churches have lost the art of discipleship.

They've lost the art of planting and sowing.

For the long term, they're treating congregants like a shake and baked TV dinner.

You pop in for the sermon, you get the salvation sermon.

You pop out, you're good for the week.

And that's not discipleship.

I call that instapot discipleship when it.

Should be a part of the.

I love that.

I love that.

That's fantastic.

Yeah, I'm going to steal that one.

Discipleship, it's far more long term.

Look, I teach at a largely secular institution and my students are, I think most of them are fairly secular or under.

Under discipled at least.

And I only see them for two years at the most, and then they move on.

But I think that my calling is to offer what, discipleship, what mentorship?

They're available for 90% of them.

They move on.

They don't, you know, they're not there for that.

But there's a subset of my students who, they recognize their need for something and they take it.

Then they move on and I never see them again.

I will not see those trees fully grown.

But if I'm sitting here, as my parade of students are passing, excuse me.

As my parade of students are marching by, I plant seeds, plant seeds, plant seeds.

Maybe one out of 10 of those seeds in 20 years will be a mighty oak.

I don't know.

It's not really my role to look at them and say, well, not worth my time.

No, I'm going to offer the seeds.

I think what I'm trying to get at is that I would want not just churches, but all Christians to be in this habit of constantly in a posture of seed planting and watering and cultivating, gardening this world, tending and keeping the garden of God's creation and each other, tending and keeping human culture, what James Davis and Hunter called faithful presence.

Right wherever you are, be a faithful gardener of that place.

Tend and keep, weed and prune, water and plant.

Just be a source of life and flourishing where you are.

The Lyman brothers who divested to give it all to.

I mean, I'm sure they did good work with evangelism work, but my heavens, what a missed opportunity to continue tending and keeping, watering and planting in the businesses, the enterprises that they were engaged in.

Those are good things to do.

So be a good businessman, be a good professor, be a good pastor, be a good, you know, web designer, whatever it is that you're doing out there.

Be excellent at it and in that position, be faithful in your presence to be a good gardener, to water, to be a source of life and flourishing wherever you are.

Well, I was going to ask you for a concluding water bottle for our conversation, but I think you just gave it so I know you've limited time.

I do want to thank you for being on the show.

I hope that those who have heard our conversation can contribute in some way, shape or form.

We'd love to hear your comments, get your feedback.

I would encourage you to get the book the Religion of American Greatness.

We Only Touched.

I mean gave a skimming of a lot of the truths that are in as you can see just from my notes.

I, I took a lot of notes and I, I thoroughly did enjoy the book.

I, I find that you did it very even handed.

I've read other books on the subject and I found that your yours was the best treatment on the subject and I'm very grateful for it and I'm glad to be able to put the Apollos watered recommendation behind it.

So I just want to thank you Paul for coming on the show.

May God bless you as you continue to teach.

Thank you so much.

I appreciate your time for the invitation and for your kind words and my best to you and to all your listeners.

That was an incredibly insightful conversation.

But here's my question.

Do you agree or do you disagree and if so, why?

I want to hear from you either way.

Email me travis Apollo.org state why you agree or disagree.

I would love to hear your thoughts and I also want to remind you for of our Blueprint Cohort that's coming up.

Sign up today.

The link is in the show notes.

If you want to know how to engage better in your world then sign up for the Blueprint Cohort based on my book Kingdom Living in the Modern World.

That's Blueprint Kingdom Living in the Modern World.

I discuss how God has set it up, how we are to engage the world in a way that is honoring to God, that also is without cultural idolatries and helps us to not only be faithful but also culturally fruitful.

I want to also invite you back for our conversation next week.

I am super super excited that I was able to get Christian Dr. Christian Smith from Notre Dame.

This is the man who coined the term Moral Therapeutic deism.

He is going to talk about his new book which is radically wonderful.

It's called why Religion Went Obsolete.

We explore the various factors that have led us to our current cultural moment.

It is an insightful, enlightening.

It'll be a huge blessing and it'll be also eye opening.

It's a conversation you are not going to want to miss and I just want to encourage you and remind you to water your faith so that you can water your world.

There's a lot of people dying on the vine out there that need the water of life, pastors and ministry leaders included.

And I want to make sure that you stay watered where you are so that you can water the people God has entrusted to you.

With that in mind, stay watered everybody.

Thanks for joining us on today's episode of the Ministry Deep Dive, a podcast of Apollo Was Watered, the Center for Discipleship and Cultural Apologetics.

We hope it helps you thrive in your ministry and in today's culture.

Let's keep the conversation going.

Check out our ministry@Apollo paloswater.org and be sure to sign up for one of our ministry cohorts.

Connect with others in the battle.

We need one another.

And remember, keep diving deep and as always, stay watered, everybody.