Life doesn’t always make sense and that’s exactly what makes it beautiful. In this episode, Klaudia sits down with Gavin Oattes, bestselling author of Confidently Lost, speaker, and stand-up comedian, to talk honestly about feeling lost, overwhelmed, and perfectly imperfect.

This is a conversation about breaking free from the pressure to “have it all figured out,” ideas on how to deal with societal expectations, and why it’s okay not always to get it right.

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Hello happiness seekers. Welcome to the Happiness Challenge podcast. I'm Claudia Mitura and I'm on a mission to explore the best happiness hacks that science has on offer.

Like so many others, the pandemic cut me off from my family and work. So I decided to use my training as a psychologist to discover what science can tell us about the art of happiness.

What I found set me on the path to joy and now I'm ready to share my journey with you.

Each month I'm publishing three linked episodes where I'm speaking to a leading expert, putting their tips to the test and sharing my findings and feelings.

From mindfulness to exercise and random acts of kindness, I'll be sharing a light on the simple happiness habits that can bring more joy to our lives.

What's very exciting, you can Also now find 26 science backed principles, principles on how to create more happiness at work, in relationships and in your own skin in my new book, the Alphabet of Happiness. So join me as I embark on my challenge and together we can become more successful, resilient and happy. Hello happiness seekers.

Welcome to this month's Happiness Challenge where now be exploring how to embrace life's unpredictability and imperfections, especially when things don't go to plan, which I think is quite often.

Absolutely delighted to be joined by Gavin Oates, best selling author, speaker and stand up comedian whose new book Confidently Lost is for anyone who has ever felt stuck or overwhelmed by life's unpredictability. And in today's episode we are talking about breaking free from the pressure to have it all figured out.

Ideas how to deal with societal expectation and why it's okay to not always get it right. So let's dive in. I am so excited about this conversation. Welcome Gavin.

Claudia, thank you very much. That was a wonderful introduction.

Gavin, let's go straight into it because I have so many really deep and interesting questions for you. So in your book Confidently Lost, you talk about invisible rucksack of emotional baggage.

And I was really thinking about this expression and how the idea that we carrying with us something invisible can impact and influence how we perceive world and what expectations we have towards life. So I just was curious, what does this mean to you and how can we start letting go of what potentially might be really weighing us down.

Do you know the idea of the invisible rucksack?

I have heard people talk about this concept for years and I used to be a primary school teacher and I remember there was conversations about children who seem to be carrying a lot of things from home and for Me, it's the invisible rucksack. It's all the stuff that we're carrying that effectively no one else can see.

Old stories, unspoken grief, expectations that we didn't choose for ourselves. Things that we were told when we were young that quietly become truths, inadverted commas about who we are.

But the danger for me, Claudia, is that we get used to it. Sometimes we get used to that weight. We forget it's even there. We don't even know it's there. And sometimes we think that's how life is meant to feel.

And I think I emptied my rucksack in probably about 10 seconds. But, hey, that's maybe another conversation. But I think. Which.

And that might be terrifying for some people, but it starts with just opening the rucksack, just naming out loud what's inside, saying, do you know what? This happened? This still hurts. Without any judgment whatsoever.

And sometimes the bravest thing you can do, Claudia, is admit that you're tired of carrying something that you were never meant to be carrying around forever.

There is so many deep bits there that I want to unpack farther, but I'm going to go back straight into. How did you manage that, unpacking that rucksack in such a short period of time? You said 10 seconds. Tell us the story. I just. I need to know.

Oh, I'm gonna try and do this in 10 seconds. I lost my dad in a long time, 14 years ago, and I thought I dealt with it incredibly well. Definitely grieved, talk about him, write about him.

Very open about sadness and grief and all that sort of stuff. But it turned out that there's been an awful lot of stuff building up in my head that I've not been talking about.

And I went in to talk about anxiety, which is something I've lived with forever and I'm very open about. And it was a brand new doctor. And out of nowhere, 14 years after losing my dad, the doctor said, where's your dad? And I do not know why.

I do not know why the GP asked this, because there's nothing in my records about him. And everything poured out of my face and that was it. And it all just came out. It all came out.

There was tears, there was snot, but there was just so much upset, so much sadness, and I can't remember who the quote us by, but there's a quote. It goes along the lines of all the clouds inside me were raining. And it was just the most.

It was an awful moment, Claudia, but I felt the weight lift immediately and I realized I just had been carrying stuff around and I didn't even know it was there anymore.

And this idea of that invisible back rucksack, as you're saying, and we often, I think, find out that we've been carrying it when we stop and we like, oh, oh, wow, that is a relief. As you said, I've been definitely carrying it for some time and now it's gone. And thank you so much for sharing this story.

As I can imagine, very vulnerable, very difficult moment in life, but giving you that relief now.

I think one of the stories that we definitely carry around is that idea that we need to get it right, that there is almost some kind of formula for life, for happiness, for how to be good enough. And I think of course society contributes to that. We'll come back to that in a moment. But I just wanted to know you very much challenging that idea.

So can you share maybe a specific moment when embracing imperfection actually led to unexpected breakthrough or maybe positive change in your life?

Yeah, I think it's a really good point. This idea of getting it right. We're taught from a young age to be successful, whatever that even means.

You ask some young teenagers, what's the dream? I want to make it. What does that even mean?

So there are loads for me, but the one that really sticks with me is probably realizing, so I'm a parent, I'm a husband, I'm a business owner. And I think it was realizing that I didn't always need to be the strong one.

For years I thought that strength probably meant coping quietly, just keep going, just crack on with everything, keeping the show on the road. Claudia, I have a background in stand up comedy. My business, I speak professionally for a living.

So I'm always on, I'm always on stage, I'm always out and about. And then I think one day I just simply realized that I didn't need to, I didn't need to carry on like that.

I mentioned that in the doctor surgery that day. I asked for help, like proper help, not the polite I'm fine sort of stuff.

And that moment didn't feel like at the time, like a breakthrough to me at all. At the time actually felt a wee bit like failure.

I maybe let everybody down and I had shown that vulnerable side, to go back to that word, that you used a couple of minutes ago, but it changed everything for me. It's amazing now see that with the work that I do now, the books I write and the talks I give.

I was speaking in Manchester yesterday and somebody said to me at the end, thank you for your vulnerability. Nobody used to say that. Nobody used to say things like that. So I think this moment of realization for me, I think it deepened my relationships.

I think it's made me a better dad, a better partner, a better employer. Someone said to me recently, you've softened. Yes, I have, I have. And that is absolutely wonderful.

I think it's made my work more honest, more human and somewhat ironically stronger.

Yes. And I really relate to all of this because I my one of the key, my key values is very much about learning.

And I really think we cannot be learning in life, we cannot be growing in life, we cannot be changing things in life if we are not open to, not to get it right. Because otherwise you always an expert, isn't it? And the thing is we are not born experts. There is no one formula for life.

And we need to try different things to figure out who we are, what we want, what's important to us.

I think it's so incredible for you to share it in a very valuable way and share your story of why actually getting it right or maybe even at moments feel, yeah, I'm actually failing and be vulnerable about that. How that can change our perspective. And you already mentioned how that happens through leh. I don't think so. Society supports this view.

So we're going opposite again, maybe against the norms if you like, because society will put certain pressures for us depending on the culture we're in, depending the gender that we identified with the world, be very specific norms that we supposed to adhere to. Do you have any advice how to live our life more authentically?

How can we be choosing our own path even though it means we not fulfilling some societal expectations?

Yeah, so I said earlier that we teach people to be successful. I didn't quite mean that we equip them to be successful. But the world bangs on about being successful.

And I've always thought if we were able to shift away from success to contentment and fulfillment to be present.

I think one of the first things we can do is recognize that a lot of the rules that people are trying to live by were written by people that you've never met. People who are trying to sell a product, trying to sell a workshop or a best selling self help book that actually isn't, isn't Factually correct.

There's a. I mentioned there about success. There's a almost like a script that we're handed early on about success, happiness, masculinity, productivity and even grief.

Just to mention that again. And most of us spend years effectively trying to perform that because we've been told that's the correct way. And a lot of us wonder why don't we fit.

Why do we not fit in with the success particularly that we see on social media now when everybody's presenting the best version of themselves. So my advice is simple, maybe not easy, but ask better questions. Who decided this is how life should be? Does this actually matter to me?

And what would I do if I wasn't actually trying to impress anybody? Living authentically isn't about being fearless. It's about being honest enough to choose that sort of alignment with your own values over approval.

You know, again and again and we're. I talk about in my book confidently Lost about shoulds and how we often should ourselves. I should be doing this and I should be doing that. Says who?

Why?

So I think it's being content and fulfilled with where you're at right now rather than where you should be in a year or two years because we often live in the future or we live in the past and actually like how do you want to feel right now and what could you do right now to help you feel like that and just crack on with that and don't worry about what other people think. Although it can be hard. It can be.

Of course it can be hard. Isn't it? We want to be liked, we want to be helpful and we definitely are all people pleasers. So it definitely takes a hard task.

It is and it's a lovely thing to be a people pleaser for other people. It's not necessarily good for you though.

And that's why I think the question that you asking, what would I do if I didn't want to or have to or feel like I should impress people? What would I do then? Oh, that's a lot of pressure. I can feel one of my backpacks falling from one of my arms.

I think I'm definitely having multiple ones around. So really powerful question. Thank you.

I'm definitely that will be taking that on board and of course during that time when we reflecting we're going through different experiences when we shaping life to what's important to us, often the real growth will be quite messy. It's not a straight line to however we decide what success looks like. But I think we don't celebrate enough.

And I think you will agree with me that we often celebrate a big milestones rather than small progress that maybe often is invisible. So I'm curious about what are some small everyday ways that people can start celebrate their own messy, imperfect progress.

Especially when things are really not going according to a plan.

Yeah. And life is messy, sometimes really messy. And I think it's allowing yourself to be okay and accept that this is where I am right now.

And it's celebrating what I sometimes refer to as the tiny rebellions. It's the day you decided to do nothing instead of pushing through and doing everything. The moment you decided to say no without telling somebody why.

I've discovered the joy of saying no. I believe you call it Jono, the joy of no. And I love it. Just over a year ago I decided to have a year of no.

I started in November deliberately because I thought that was funny and it's been an absolute revelation.

Cloudia so those moments you say no, the conversation that you don't avoid, the boundary that you allow yourself to wobble through because progress doesn't have to be like a fanfare every single time. It doesn't have to be a big celebration.

I think it looks more often like quieter courage, less attacking yourself, less self destruction, self punishment and a slightly kinder inner voice than last week. It's that kind of thing of doing better than I did last week. Comparing yourself to yourself rather than other people.

I think that's probably where the magic sauce is. Am I doing better than I was last week? And if the answer is yes, not all the time, but if it's sometimes yes, then I think you're good growing.

And if things aren't going to plan and it truly does feel messy, that doesn't mean we're failing. It often means we're learning. And learning is evidence of movement. I think messy progress still counts.

And it doesn't matter that maybe nobody's clapping.

Oh, I love that. And I can see that comes from your stand up comedy background as well. This idea of clapping, laughing.

And I've been on stage with no one clapping and it's horrible.

Yeah, but you have this achievement of hey, I'm here and I've done it, which is incredible.

I love the point of this, like rebellions of those small rebellions that as you said, progress doesn't have to be necessary, that I'm taking off things from my to do list, that I'm achieving, that I'm doing more, maybe it is doing lesser and it is maybe saying no. Maybe simplifying things.

I actually think that is much more difficult than the achievement, the progress, the fulfilling to do list that stop and saying, I'm going to do this differently and actually maybe this will be a no. And letting things go and doing less. So when we think about that messy life and when life is messy, I think what stresses out the most is.

Or what stresses me the most? So this is very personal question. Is this idea of uncertainty, unpredictability, we're just not sure what's going to happen.

We had a plan, and hey, the plan is out of the window. So just wondering how you deal with uncertainty.

There's a phrase I heard last year somebody was talking about planet Earth right now, which is a bit bonkers, right? And the phrase was that since COVID there has just been this feeling of certain uncertainty. And as negative as that, the implications may be there.

I think it's a beautiful phrase, certain uncertainty. And it has very much felt like we were coming out of COVID and we all thought, finally, things are okay, and the world said, no, have some more.

And there's been wars and things have been crazy expensive, and the world is bonkers right now, like it really is, but it is also absolutely beautiful and rammed with joy and excitement and culture and music and art. I've gone off on a tangent, however.

I've learned that the pressure to have to come back to the question, to learn to have everything figured out, I think is one of the biggest lies that we've been sold. None of the people I admire most, Claudia, had a plan. They don't. They moved, they tried, they went. They got lost. Then they got lost again.

I don't think confidence for a lot of the people I look up to and that I'm inspired by ever came from certainty. I think it just came from. Yeah, moving, just being on the go, just trying, just embracing, failing to go back to that again.

I think uncertainty isn't. I don't think that's the flaw in the process. I think it is the process.

We get more comfortable not having the answers when we stop treating life like a test we can fail and, I don't know, start treating it like it's an adventure that we're allowed to learn from. You don't need clarity to take that next step. And I meet people all the time through my work who are so ready just to take that next step.

But so many things holding them back. You just need a little. You do need a little bit of courage from time to time, little bit of bravery.

But that curiosity that we had when we were five, I'm so inspired by my time as a primary school teacher. I was in the classroom as a teacher for six years from a young age.

And the curiosity, the playfulness, that scientific breakdown of playfulness, that imagination, creativity, innovation that kids just impart. So inspiring.

I think we should be getting 5 year olds round into the Houses of Parliament and round the tables of big companies and they'll tell you how to make decisions and how to treat your people. Yeah, I think I've probably answered 100 questions in that one question, but hopefully it made sense.

Absolutely, it had. And you're right, unfortunately we are getting less curious with age and we just need to get that spark alive.

And when we, on these moments in life, I think when we standing on the edge of the cliff and we neither want to go back nor we have the courage yet to go forward, the curiosity is what can almost encourage us to take that first step. Thank you so much, Gavin, for your honesty, for giving us lots of small nuggets of inspiration.

And I would love to ask you a final question because this is a podcast about happiness and I would love you to tell me what makes you happy.

And I have learned a lot about myself and my answer to you is glimmers. Little things, small things. My idea of happiness has transformed over the last couple of years.

Some deep things, some honest things, but little things. Things like laughing so hard that my face hurts. Just lovely conversation, Going to walk, learning that, you know what's.

Watching people transform when they realize that they're not actually broken, they're just where they need to be. Feeling useful, not busy. Joy that feels earned but not exhausted. Music, my wife and kids. Obviously I should have technically should have said that.

Do you want me to edit the podcast? Put them in the beginning so you don't get into trouble.

And I had a moment where I heard the sound of an ice cream van outside. And we don't have an ice cream van where we live. That comes round and for 30 seconds, well, for 30 seconds, I was transported to being a little boy.

And I could remember going to the ice cream van. I saw my mum, my dad, my brother, and it was lovely. But the crucial moment was that for 30 seconds, I wasn't thinking about how I was feeling.

And I just thought, this is what it's about. It's about those lovely little beautiful glimmers that send those lovely messages of safety and security to your brain.

And I realized it's then it's time to just go on a bit of a mission and just make sure I'm noticing just how amazing this world actually is.

Yeah. Those ordinary moments we take for granted, and when they're gone, we really miss them.

But on the idea of a ice cream van and that music playing, I thought I'd share with you.

Funny story that someone told me that they were, as a kid eating so much ice cream that their parents told them that when the ice cream van is playing that music, that means that they run out of ice cream. So, you know, they have a completely different memory about that sound.

I love it. And I'll be honest with you, I have.

I went to school with when I was a little boy whose dad used to say the exact same thing he used to say, nope, it means they've sold out. Love it.

Don't even go and queue. No point.

I love it.

Thank you so much for coming to join me at the Happiness Challenge today. Thank you for sharing all your wisdom and see you around. Thank you so much.

Thank you very much. Take care.