In this episode of Behind the Bob, Carrie-Ann Wade is in conversation with Darren Caveney. He is the creator and owner of comms2point0 specialist consultancy, Creative Communicators Ltd. His 28 years in communications, PR and marketing includes communications leadership in local government and in the NHS.

From a potential career as a stained glass maker (it's never too late) to be asked to stop the Guiness blimp flying over London, Darren shares the highlights and challenges of his career to date.

And best of all, he shares his top 10 tips for communications directors and aspiring communications leaders. These unsurprisingly include a focus on mental health and wellbeing, as well as setting really clear boundaries to support your ways of working and relationships in the workplace.

Behind the Bob, Diary of a Comms Director

Welcome to Behind the Bob, Diary of a Comms Director with Carrie-Ann Wade.

This podcast is all about developing communications leaders of the future and supporting you to grow and thrive in your comms career. You’ll hear from Carrie-Ann about her own personal experiences and insights and there might even be a special guest or two popping up.

The first series focused on diversity in the communications profession and how to create more opportunities for people to see communications as a profession they would like to work in. The second series explores the lives of communications directors to help inspire and support communications leaders of the future.

Behind the Bob gives you a sneak peek into life as a comms director and provides you with all the "behind the scenes" knowledge to help you thrive as a communications leader.

Thank you for listening to this episode. If you enjoyed listening please share it, leave a rating or a review. It really does help the podcast reach more communicators!

New episodes of Behind the Bob are published on Wednesdays and you can always subscribe via your favourite podcast platform to ensure you don't miss an episode.

You can find out more about Carrie-Ann and Cat's Pajamas Communications at www.cats-pajamas.co.uk

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Carrie-Ann Wade: Welcome to Behind the Bob, Diary of a Comms Director with

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me, Carrie-Ann Wade.

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This

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Carrie-Ann Wade: podcast is all about developing communications leaders

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of the future and supporting you to grow and thrive in your comms career.

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You'll hear from me about my experiences and insights, and there might even

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be a special guest or two popping up.

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So I hope you enjoy.

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Hello listeners and welcome to this episode of Behind the

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Bob, Diary of a Comms Director.

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I'm absolutely delighted to be here in this episode with Darren Caveney who I've

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known for some time and we have spells where we see each other loads and then

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we don't see each other for ages and then we're back in the same spheres so

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I'm really happy that you've agreed to be on the podcast Darren, so welcome.

Darren Caveney: 00:00:58

No, thank you so much, Carrie Anne, and for the invite.

Darren Caveney: 00:01:00

It's always nice to chat.

Darren Caveney: 00:01:02

Carrie-Ann Wade: It is always nice to chat and just before we started recording

Darren Caveney: 00:01:05

we did say we might have to reign each other in because this isn't a competition

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for longest podcast episode ever.

Darren Caveney: 00:01:11

So we'll have to remind each other of that as we go through.

Darren Caveney: 00:01:15

So in this series of the podcast I am talking to communications directors past

Darren Caveney: 00:01:21

and present about their experience of And their kind of thought processes about

Darren Caveney: 00:01:26

why becoming a director of communications felt like the right thing for them.

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And I know you've got a huge amount of experience Darren in the public sector.

Darren Caveney: 00:01:36

And then you before you set out on your own and charted those exciting waters as a

Darren Caveney: 00:01:41

consultant and running your own business.

Darren Caveney: 00:01:43

You were a comms and engagement director for Health Education England.

Darren Caveney: 00:01:48

So that's why I've asked you on, cause I know you've got a wealth

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of experience and knowledge.

Darren Caveney: 00:01:53

So I was wondering if you could tell us a little bit about your career to date

Darren Caveney: 00:01:58

and where you got to in terms of thinking about comms as being the profession for

Darren Caveney: 00:02:02

you, because I see you as a communicator through and through, but you must've

Darren Caveney: 00:02:06

gone through a process to get there.

Darren Caveney: 00:02:08

yeah.

Darren Caveney: 00:02:08

When you say very experienced, is that elderly?

Darren Caveney: 00:02:12

Described myself as elderly in a meeting the other day.

Darren Caveney: 00:02:14

Just, I don't know, it just comes out, doesn't it?

Darren Caveney: 00:02:16

And somebody said, you can't say that.

Darren Caveney: 00:02:18

And I said I think you can say it about yourself, can't you?

Darren Caveney: 00:02:21

Carrie-Ann Wade: think you're allowed to about yourself.

Darren Caveney: 00:02:22

Yeah.

Darren Caveney: 00:02:23

I was thinking more about the wealth of experience that you managed

Darren Caveney: 00:02:26

to gather, but if you want to go with elderly, then go with it.

Darren Caveney: 00:02:29

Very kind.

Darren Caveney: 00:02:30

I had 28 years, this month actually,

Darren Caveney: 00:02:34

Carrie-Ann Wade: Happy anniversary.

Darren Caveney: 00:02:36

years in communications.

Darren Caveney: 00:02:38

And what did I do 28 years ago this month, I was just about to start a contract

Darren Caveney: 00:02:44

on the Euro 96 football tournament.

Darren Caveney: 00:02:46

I left uni early to go and start this really exciting, and it was only a short

Darren Caveney: 00:02:54

term contract just for the tournament.

Darren Caveney: 00:02:56

It was a seven day a week contract.

Darren Caveney: 00:02:58

Having come from, being a student at uni, that was quite a shock to the system.

Darren Caveney: 00:03:02

But I suppose the route that I took to get there is quite, yeah, it's, Excuse me it's

Darren Caveney: 00:03:10

littered with all sorts of disasters and terrible jobs, and there wasn't a career

Darren Caveney: 00:03:15

path up until I was about 24 really.

Darren Caveney: 00:03:17

So I was, yeah, I went to an awful, all boys comprehensive school, bit

Darren Caveney: 00:03:22

rough, corporal punishment was still a thing, absolutely hated school,

Darren Caveney: 00:03:27

had no idea what I wanted to do.

Darren Caveney: 00:03:29

I remember my English teacher, Mr.

Darren Caveney: 00:03:30

Scully, on the last day of school saying, so what are you going to do next, Daz?

Darren Caveney: 00:03:35

And I said not sure, sir.

Darren Caveney: 00:03:36

And he went, all right good luck anyway.

Darren Caveney: 00:03:38

And that literally

Darren Caveney: 00:03:39

Carrie-Ann Wade: That was it.

Darren Caveney: 00:03:40

choice.

Darren Caveney: 00:03:41

And I'm not joking.

Darren Caveney: 00:03:42

That was, everyone exaggerates about their school life, don't they?

Darren Caveney: 00:03:45

But that literally was it.

Darren Caveney: 00:03:47

So I wanted to be an artist and specifically I wanted to be a cartoonist.

Darren Caveney: 00:03:52

I still think I might have been okay at that, but it just didn't

Darren Caveney: 00:03:55

happen and I failed an entrance exam to get into the art college, so I

Darren Caveney: 00:03:59

wasn't as good as I thought I was.

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But there was like literally 30 places a year for the whole of Birmingham

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and I managed to make a mess of that.

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So quickly got booted out of that idea.

Darren Caveney: 00:04:09

So I went to college and really didn't like it.

Darren Caveney: 00:04:13

And I think I'm one of those people if it, if something doesn't grab me, if I'm not

Darren Caveney: 00:04:16

entertained, if I'm not passionate, if I'm not enjoying something, I just, I drift.

Darren Caveney: 00:04:22

And so I was a bit naughty at college.

Darren Caveney: 00:04:24

And so I was doing some A levels, but yeah, I also had a part time job.

Darren Caveney: 00:04:29

I've worked since I was 14.

Darren Caveney: 00:04:30

So we had disposable income, even at, the age of 16 and managed to

Darren Caveney: 00:04:35

get thrown out of college for just basically a lack of attendance.

Darren Caveney: 00:04:38

Then I did a whole series of actually the very first job I had was making

Darren Caveney: 00:04:43

stained glass windows of all things.

Darren Caveney: 00:04:45

And you think now I look back and you think, Oh, that might've been your thing.

Darren Caveney: 00:04:49

That would have, and I've done a course since last year, funnily enough.

Darren Caveney: 00:04:52

And yeah, that could have been a thing, but at 16, it was all wasted upon me.

Darren Caveney: 00:04:56

I was far too young and and immature and not very sensible.

Darren Caveney: 00:05:01

So I did a series of terrible jobs.

Darren Caveney: 00:05:03

And then I think when I was about 23, 24 a bit less actually, about 21, I

Darren Caveney: 00:05:08

suddenly realized that I could Well I had to get some qualifications because

Darren Caveney: 00:05:11

I was, I'd realised that I wasn't really cut out for terrible work.

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I wanted something a little bit better and then I went to night school.

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So that's how old I am.

Darren Caveney: 00:05:20

I went to night school and I did a CAM foundation.

Darren Caveney: 00:05:23

I don't even know if it's still a thing.

Darren Caveney: 00:05:25

And I really found that I really liked communications and I liked marketing.

Darren Caveney: 00:05:29

And so I did that a couple of nights a week for a couple of years.

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And I thought, I just need to go and do this properly.

Darren Caveney: 00:05:34

So off I went to Leeds and did a PR degree with the famous Anne Gregory.

Darren Caveney: 00:05:39

PR royalty, isn't she?

Darren Caveney: 00:05:40

So I think I've always been very fortunate because I think I got a little bit lucky

Darren Caveney: 00:05:46

and I could, I look back sometimes I think you could have so easily have ended

Darren Caveney: 00:05:51

up , carrying on doing terrible jobs and not never amounting to anything.

Darren Caveney: 00:05:54

I think that was my career path.

Darren Caveney: 00:05:56

So the PR degree was really important for me.

Darren Caveney: 00:05:59

And then, yeah, as I said, fast forward to today.

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28 years ago this month, I'm working on a massive, second largest

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football tournament in the world.

Darren Caveney: 00:06:07

And I was I was an assistant venue manager for a company called ISL,

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who at the time were the world's largest sports marketing agency.

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So they had the advertising rights to World Cup, Olympics,

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the Euros, everything.

Darren Caveney: 00:06:22

They were later the subjects of the Panorama documentary about all sorts

Darren Caveney: 00:06:26

of should we tell, better not say too much because this is your podcast and I

Darren Caveney: 00:06:29

don't want to get it banned On Spotify and Apple and so forth, but yeah, I mean

Darren Caveney: 00:06:33

it's all out there in the public domain So there was some less than favorable,

Darren Caveney: 00:06:37

stuff going on there But I didn't know at the time and it was amazing and then

Darren Caveney: 00:06:40

yeah, I ended up there and I worked agency side I worked in utilities.

Darren Caveney: 00:06:45

So I worked in the water industry funnily enough just a marketing role

Darren Caveney: 00:06:49

and it's a dirty word now, isn't it?

Darren Caveney: 00:06:51

But it wasn't then.

Darren Caveney: 00:06:52

And it was an amazing grounding for me because we had lots

Darren Caveney: 00:06:55

of budget as you'd expect.

Darren Caveney: 00:06:57

And I think I was in into something then that I was really enjoying so

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I threw myself into it and that was a sponge I just soaked up information

Darren Caveney: 00:07:05

and I learned on the job and people would say oh he wants to do the

Darren Caveney: 00:07:09

annual report this year and I'd put my hand up say yeah I'll do that

Darren Caveney: 00:07:13

Carrie-Ann Wade: Oh, you were keen.

Darren Caveney: 00:07:14

I was.

Darren Caveney: 00:07:15

Yeah.

Darren Caveney: 00:07:15

He wants to do the staff survey.

Darren Caveney: 00:07:17

Oh, I'll do that.

Darren Caveney: 00:07:18

And the other people in the team were like, you alright?

Darren Caveney: 00:07:21

For me, it was learning because I was catching up because at this point, I

Darren Caveney: 00:07:25

was 28, 29 and I wanted to catch up.

Darren Caveney: 00:07:28

Anyway, that boring you too much.

Darren Caveney: 00:07:30

So I then.

Darren Caveney: 00:07:31

I saw a marketing manager role in local government and I

Darren Caveney: 00:07:34

thought that looks interesting.

Darren Caveney: 00:07:36

Went along for the interview and fortunately was offered the job

Darren Caveney: 00:07:39

and I did that for a year or so.

Darren Caveney: 00:07:41

And then the head of comms job came up and I thought, do I want to be head of comms?

Darren Caveney: 00:07:47

And I thought, I do.

Darren Caveney: 00:07:48

Somebody once said to me, it might have been my dad who, I think I get my work

Darren Caveney: 00:07:51

ethic from that, said if you're going to work 10, get paid as much as possible,

Darren Caveney: 00:07:57

which sounds like really Thatcher-ite

Darren Caveney: 00:07:59

doesn't it?

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And it's thinking it wasn't necessarily that, but he was saying just, just

Darren Caveney: 00:08:04

push, push on drive for things.

Darren Caveney: 00:08:06

And so yeah, so I became a head of service in my early thirties, which I think

Darren Caveney: 00:08:10

was quite young, probably then but it was a lovely council and a lovely team.

Darren Caveney: 00:08:13

And then I was quite lucky and I did that for five years.

Darren Caveney: 00:08:17

And then I realised there was in a neighbouring authority, there was a

Darren Caveney: 00:08:20

similar job up that came up on the market, but it was paying a lot more.

Darren Caveney: 00:08:24

And I thought, man, it's probably time to move on, I've been here six years

Darren Caveney: 00:08:28

now, I love it, but, we've all been in that space, haven't we, move on?

Darren Caveney: 00:08:32

And my chief exec at the time said you don't want to go there, do you?

Darren Caveney: 00:08:35

And I said it's time to move on, really.

Darren Caveney: 00:08:37

And, and that's paying quite a lot more than you are.

Darren Caveney: 00:08:40

And she said, okay, she said look, you won't like it.

Darren Caveney: 00:08:42

We'll keep your job open for a couple of weeks.

Darren Caveney: 00:08:44

If you want to come back, you can.

Darren Caveney: 00:08:46

I thought, Oh my God.

Darren Caveney: 00:08:47

And do you know what, the week two, I almost did.

Darren Caveney: 00:08:50

And it was awful.

Darren Caveney: 00:08:51

And we'll probably talk about it a little bit later on.

Darren Caveney: 00:08:53

Anyway, I did that for five years, five long years.

Darren Caveney: 00:08:57

Why I'm gray and a less hair than they used to be.

Darren Caveney: 00:09:01

And then, as you mentioned at the start, Carrie-Ann, yeah, so I then

Darren Caveney: 00:09:04

was a director of comms and engagement in the NHS for a couple of years,

Darren Caveney: 00:09:09

which was great, completely different experience, a new set of jargon

Darren Caveney: 00:09:13

and a new world to learn all about.

Darren Caveney: 00:09:16

But in the background, I'd already set up comms 2.

Darren Caveney: 00:09:19

0 and we'll probably talk about that later.

Darren Caveney: 00:09:20

So yeah, so I did reach the point of director of comms.

Darren Caveney: 00:09:23

It certainly wasn't a planned career path.

Darren Caveney: 00:09:26

My, my career path was, all over the place.

Darren Caveney: 00:09:29

And I think,

Darren Caveney: 00:09:30

Carrie-Ann Wade: stained glass.

Darren Caveney: 00:09:32

Maker and you've ended up comms director and now business owner,

Darren Caveney: 00:09:35

which we'll definitely talk about.

Darren Caveney: 00:09:37

Yeah, but the only reason for probably going on a little bit too

Darren Caveney: 00:09:40

much about all of that is because you know there isn't one route and I say this

Darren Caveney: 00:09:44

to my kids there isn't one route into things is there and I think we all get

Darren Caveney: 00:09:48

we fall into traps don't we about how you and sometimes that's forced upon us

Darren Caveney: 00:09:52

isn't it because there are expectations that oh you know he hasn't got that she

Darren Caveney: 00:09:56

hasn't done this and those can be barriers and we've all faced barriers haven't

Darren Caveney: 00:09:59

we you know but yeah I do think that is a message that There isn't one path.

Darren Caveney: 00:10:04

And I think actually having a rich and diverse and, colorful background,

Darren Caveney: 00:10:09

it makes you appreciate things more.

Darren Caveney: 00:10:11

So I've, I'm all, I've always been really appreciative of the jobs that

Darren Caveney: 00:10:15

I've had and especially what I do now.

Darren Caveney: 00:10:17

Carrie-Ann Wade: I love that.

Darren Caveney: 00:10:18

And you're so right about that pathway into our profession in particular, I think

Darren Caveney: 00:10:22

doesn't have a, you have to go through all of these different qualifications

Darren Caveney: 00:10:27

or, types of roles to get to where you want to get to in the career because I

Darren Caveney: 00:10:31

think comms as a profession does really embrace that diversity of experience

Darren Caveney: 00:10:35

and thinking and creativity which is really lovely so it's nice to hear that.

Darren Caveney: 00:10:41

Although it may have been a path that you fell into more than planned

Darren Caveney: 00:10:44

to go into it's obviously served you well because then here you

Darren Caveney: 00:10:49

are now running your own business.

Darren Caveney: 00:10:51

I'm wondering if that might be one of the highlights of your career to date, but I

Darren Caveney: 00:10:54

don't want to put words into your mouth.

Darren Caveney: 00:10:56

You've talked already about being involved in the Euros, which sounds like it was

Darren Caveney: 00:11:00

pretty amazing thing to be involved in, in, in your early twenties, but talk

Darren Caveney: 00:11:04

us through some of the highlights of your career so far, Darren, if you can,

Darren Caveney: 00:11:08

and I'm sure there's going to be loads.

Darren Caveney: 00:11:10

No, thank you.

Darren Caveney: 00:11:11

There are loads.

Darren Caveney: 00:11:11

Yeah, and I think I set the bar quite high with that, working on

Darren Caveney: 00:11:14

the football tournaments, I think.

Darren Caveney: 00:11:16

And the one thing I did realize, 'cause I was a football fan at

Darren Caveney: 00:11:18

the time I've gone off it more recently being a Birmingham fan.

Darren Caveney: 00:11:21

But actually being a football fan and working on a football tournament

Darren Caveney: 00:11:26

actually wasn't really helpful because you realize that the tournament

Darren Caveney: 00:11:30

had nothing to do with football.

Darren Caveney: 00:11:31

It was all about big sponsorship.

Darren Caveney: 00:11:33

And so it was quite an eye opener, really seeing some of the stuff

Darren Caveney: 00:11:36

that went on behind the scenes.

Darren Caveney: 00:11:38

And I remember Carlsberg were one of the major sponsors and Guinness sent a blimp

Darren Caveney: 00:11:43

above the ground that we were working at.

Darren Caveney: 00:11:45

And all the Carlsberg contingent came over and were asking

Darren Caveney: 00:11:48

me to get rid of the blimp.

Darren Caveney: 00:11:49

And I'm like how do I get rid of a blimp?

Darren Caveney: 00:11:51

That's, 600, 800

Darren Caveney: 00:11:53

Carrie-Ann Wade: rid of it.

Darren Caveney: 00:11:54

Yeah, shoot it down.

Darren Caveney: 00:11:56

Yeah.

Darren Caveney: 00:11:56

So that, that, yeah, that,

Darren Caveney: 00:11:57

Carrie-Ann Wade: Doesn't that just summarize exactly what everyone else

Darren Caveney: 00:12:01

who's not a communications professional thinks comms people are here to do?

Darren Caveney: 00:12:05

We're just here to solve all the problems that no one else knows how to get sorted.

Darren Caveney: 00:12:09

So comms will sort that out.

Darren Caveney: 00:12:11

Just get rid of that blimp.

Darren Caveney: 00:12:13

four weeks later, I've been a lazy student that

Darren Caveney: 00:12:15

sat in a pub, chatting about, latest tunes that come out.

Darren Caveney: 00:12:18

And so that was a shock to the system.

Darren Caveney: 00:12:20

Yeah.

Darren Caveney: 00:12:20

I had to ring the legal team in Switzerland who confirms

Darren Caveney: 00:12:24

that that, yeah that the sky wasn't included in the contract.

Darren Caveney: 00:12:28

That's, that was the, what they came back with.

Darren Caveney: 00:12:31

Airspace was not included in the contract, so I had to feed this back and it didn't

Darren Caveney: 00:12:35

go down well, but anyway, yeah loads of career highlights so I think I've

Darren Caveney: 00:12:39

been really lucky and there's loads of things to point towards, I think

Darren Caveney: 00:12:42

one of them was working, , earlier on in my career as a head of comms And

Darren Caveney: 00:12:47

it was helping to turn a team around.

Darren Caveney: 00:12:49

It was a great team of people, but hadn't necessarily been looked after

Darren Caveney: 00:12:53

the best and turn them into a multi award winning team because they were

Darren Caveney: 00:12:58

brilliant, but didn't know it and didn't go for things, never entered an award.

Darren Caveney: 00:13:03

And so we said okay we're going to start, I, we're going to start

Darren Caveney: 00:13:05

doing some work that's worthy of it.

Darren Caveney: 00:13:07

Then we'll start entering and we won't win.

Darren Caveney: 00:13:10

But we'll start the process and we'll learn from it.

Darren Caveney: 00:13:13

And in the end, I think we won 12 or 13 awards and made loads of

Darren Caveney: 00:13:16

other short listings and seeing the looks on faces of people that just

Darren Caveney: 00:13:21

thought they were really average, but actually they were exceptional,

Darren Caveney: 00:13:25

and I would just be the person that would push it and make them do it.

Darren Caveney: 00:13:28

And, I've yet to meet a chief exec that doesn't like an

Darren Caveney: 00:13:31

award plonked on their desk.

Darren Caveney: 00:13:33

So that was lovely.

Darren Caveney: 00:13:33

And also some of the people I've been told in the team were a bit

Darren Caveney: 00:13:36

lazy and various other kind of criticisms and they weren't at all.

Darren Caveney: 00:13:41

They'd just not been looked after.

Darren Caveney: 00:13:43

And so I think turning around, people that had perhaps not the best sick

Darren Caveney: 00:13:47

leave records into people that were there first thing in the morning

Darren Caveney: 00:13:51

and really enjoying their job.

Darren Caveney: 00:13:53

Those, we'll probably talk about a little bit later on, but those

Darren Caveney: 00:13:55

are highlights to be honest.

Darren Caveney: 00:13:57

There's loads of things like, we launched a new corporate ID when I

Darren Caveney: 00:14:00

was in that organization as well, which, For some comms people, they'd

Darren Caveney: 00:14:04

absolutely hate that, but I loved it.

Darren Caveney: 00:14:05

I absolutely embraced the whole thing.

Darren Caveney: 00:14:07

And it's still one of the best projects I've ever worked on.

Darren Caveney: 00:14:10

And this was pre austerity.

Darren Caveney: 00:14:12

So there were very different times, but that was good.

Darren Caveney: 00:14:15

In the NHS role, Director of Comms role, I led on a campaign to help return nurses to

Darren Caveney: 00:14:21

work, which has been done a lot since, but at the time it wasn't really being done.

Darren Caveney: 00:14:26

And managed to fall out with lots of procurement people to get an agency

Darren Caveney: 00:14:30

involved who I knew would be brilliant.

Darren Caveney: 00:14:32

would be amazing for it.

Darren Caveney: 00:14:33

And given the tiny budget we had for a national campaign, the kind of agencies

Darren Caveney: 00:14:38

that were being mentioned, we'd have got about an hour of their time and

Darren Caveney: 00:14:42

that went on to win a UK campaign of the year award, which was brilliant.

Darren Caveney: 00:14:46

And in the process we saved the NHS 90 million quid by encouraging over

Darren Caveney: 00:14:50

1500 nurses back into practice.

Darren Caveney: 00:14:53

That, that was brilliant.

Darren Caveney: 00:14:55

And again, far cleverer and more creative people than me were responsible

Darren Caveney: 00:14:59

for it, but it was me that made it happen and led on it, if you like,

Darren Caveney: 00:15:02

and pushed it and nagged and, as I say, upset the procurement team.

Darren Caveney: 00:15:07

But sometimes you have to do these things, don't you?

Darren Caveney: 00:15:09

Carrie-Ann Wade: You do.

Darren Caveney: 00:15:10

And sometimes that's your role as a director, isn't it?

Darren Caveney: 00:15:12

It's not always to just it's in my view, never to just go with the

Darren Caveney: 00:15:15

status quo and be that yes person.

Darren Caveney: 00:15:17

It's always to be that constructive challenge and sometimes be that

Darren Caveney: 00:15:21

awkward person that's no, we can do this a different way.

Darren Caveney: 00:15:24

We don't have to keep doing things the same way we've always done them.

Darren Caveney: 00:15:28

The

Darren Caveney: 00:15:29

said, yeah, but there's a framework.

Darren Caveney: 00:15:30

And I said, yeah, but we can't afford anybody on that framework.

Darren Caveney: 00:15:34

So let, and let's,

Darren Caveney: 00:15:35

Carrie-Ann Wade: framework.

Darren Caveney: 00:15:37

Do we want it to work or not?

Darren Caveney: 00:15:38

Do we want to bring some nurses back?

Darren Caveney: 00:15:40

Isn't that the whole point, and it was so pleasing when it worked.

Darren Caveney: 00:15:43

Cause I thought, what if it doesn't work now?

Darren Caveney: 00:15:45

I've made such a song and a dance about this.

Darren Caveney: 00:15:48

But yeah that, that was a highlight and I think, yeah, obviously comms 2.

Darren Caveney: 00:15:51

0 and all the other things that have come from that we'll perhaps talk about in a

Darren Caveney: 00:15:54

while, for me I love creating new things.

Darren Caveney: 00:15:57

So when comms 2.

Darren Caveney: 00:15:58

0 kicked off and then that was 13 years ago now, and then I launched

Darren Caveney: 00:16:02

my own agency nine years ago.

Darren Caveney: 00:16:04

It just gives you, the freedom to try stuff and to hopefully do the work that

Darren Caveney: 00:16:09

pays the bills, but then have the passion projects that you really believe in.

Darren Caveney: 00:16:13

So I've been again, really fortunate with all of that.

Darren Caveney: 00:16:17

So I think Comms 2.0 is a highlight for me.

Darren Caveney: 00:16:20

Because I'm, quietly quite proud of what we've been able to do, things like the

Darren Caveney: 00:16:23

Unawards, which again is about shining a light on our industry in an accessible

Darren Caveney: 00:16:28

way, at a time when public sector can't afford to go to expensive flashy

Darren Caveney: 00:16:32

award dos in London at £300 a ticket.

Darren Caveney: 00:16:36

Those days are gone for most people.

Darren Caveney: 00:16:37

So the Unawards, launching 10 years ago, that, that was a real biggie.

Darren Caveney: 00:16:42

And I think what I like to do is.

Darren Caveney: 00:16:44

It's fly a flag for other people because when, we're not always the best at doing

Darren Caveney: 00:16:49

it ourselves, but I can bang on and crow about other people till the cows come

Darren Caveney: 00:16:53

home and I like doing that and you can do that with things like Unawards, and then

Darren Caveney: 00:16:58

loads of other stuff, like launching, comms unplugged, which, is the kind

Darren Caveney: 00:17:02

of mental health and wellbeing aspect hopefully ticked off in a small way.

Darren Caveney: 00:17:06

It's a beautiful field in Dorset for three days in September

Darren Caveney: 00:17:10

and loads of other things.

Darren Caveney: 00:17:11

I could bore you for too long, because we've only got, how long have we got?

Darren Caveney: 00:17:14

Three hours?

Darren Caveney: 00:17:15

Carrie-Ann Wade: Yeah, about that.

Darren Caveney: 00:17:16

World's longest podcast.

Darren Caveney: 00:17:17

Carrie-Ann Wade: three days,

Darren Caveney: 00:17:18

already switched off, you know that, don't you?

Darren Caveney: 00:17:20

Carrie-Ann Wade: The thing that I love about hearing from you in

Darren Caveney: 00:17:23

whatever role you've been in, and you talked about turning a team around

Darren Caveney: 00:17:27

and then you've moved right up to the unawards and comms unplugged.

Darren Caveney: 00:17:31

It's just that in terms of your, leadership and also your

Darren Caveney: 00:17:34

passion for the profession.

Darren Caveney: 00:17:36

So much of that is about the people that are in it and looking after people.

Darren Caveney: 00:17:41

And like you said, flying the flag and, saying all about all the great things that

Darren Caveney: 00:17:45

people are achieving, but also reminding people to look after their own health

Darren Caveney: 00:17:50

and wellbeing, because actually, Our profession can be a really challenging one

Darren Caveney: 00:17:54

with lots of pressure and lots of stress.

Darren Caveney: 00:17:56

And yeah, I just want to shout out because like you say, comms people themselves are

Darren Caveney: 00:17:59

very humble and don't say all the great things that they do, but a little thank

Darren Caveney: 00:18:04

you mid podcast conversation to you for being that comms leader that puts all of

Darren Caveney: 00:18:09

those things at the forefront, because I think they're so important and they're

Darren Caveney: 00:18:13

things that some leaders can forget to even, spend the time to, to support.

Darren Caveney: 00:18:18

So thank you.

Darren Caveney: 00:18:19

I want to move us on a little bit now, because I'm hoping that some of our

Darren Caveney: 00:18:24

listeners are thinking about their next steps in their comms careers.

Darren Caveney: 00:18:28

And Stepping up into maybe a more senior leadership role.

Darren Caveney: 00:18:32

And I wondered if you could talk a little bit, and you've mentioned your advice from

Darren Caveney: 00:18:36

your dad already, but how did you decide that stepping up and becoming a director

Darren Caveney: 00:18:43

was the right career choice for you?

Darren Caveney: 00:18:45

And then I'll have a supplementary question, if I may, about then, how did

Darren Caveney: 00:18:49

you decide to move on from that and do your own thing setting up your business?

Darren Caveney: 00:18:54

I then suddenly became ambitious.

Darren Caveney: 00:18:56

So I've gone from the drifty teenage kid who was a bit, all over the place

Darren Caveney: 00:19:00

to being actually quite focused.

Darren Caveney: 00:19:02

And I thought, no, I'm ambitious.

Darren Caveney: 00:19:03

I want to get his job or her job.

Darren Caveney: 00:19:05

And I want to, I want to earn more money.

Darren Caveney: 00:19:07

I want to have more influence.

Darren Caveney: 00:19:09

I think it was the influence thing that was a big part for me because

Darren Caveney: 00:19:12

I wanted to be able to shape things.

Darren Caveney: 00:19:14

You'd sit back when you're in a junior role and you'd think,

Darren Caveney: 00:19:16

why are we doing it that way?

Darren Caveney: 00:19:18

And you could.

Darren Caveney: 00:19:19

Give your opinion and try and feedback that very often it,

Darren Caveney: 00:19:22

it didn't have any impact.

Darren Caveney: 00:19:24

So I think for me, it was having the ability to have an influence and to

Darren Caveney: 00:19:27

make sure that we did things right.

Darren Caveney: 00:19:30

And I think, we've all worked haven't we with less good managers and leaders.

Darren Caveney: 00:19:35

And I think for me, I just wanted to do things the right way.

Darren Caveney: 00:19:38

I've never read a management textbook in my life, which is

Darren Caveney: 00:19:42

probably a really bad thing to admit

Darren Caveney: 00:19:44

Carrie-Ann Wade: No, I feel that's a good thing.

Darren Caveney: 00:19:46

I'm like, you must be one of very few though, but well done.

Darren Caveney: 00:19:49

I've picked one up occasionally and I

Darren Caveney: 00:19:51

just said, I can't read this.

Darren Caveney: 00:19:53

So for me, it was just about just doing things your way and doing it right.

Darren Caveney: 00:19:58

And there's that famous Anthony Borrell quote, isn't it?

Darren Caveney: 00:20:00

Which I overuse, work hard and be nice to people.

Darren Caveney: 00:20:03

That is just, Always been my philosophy.

Darren Caveney: 00:20:06

And I think that comms people.

Darren Caveney: 00:20:08

I think I'm not alone in that.

Darren Caveney: 00:20:10

Lots of comms people are like that, so it was the ambition and that ability

Darren Caveney: 00:20:14

to influence things that really made me want to get into a kind of

Darren Caveney: 00:20:18

head of role and to a director role, because that's ultimately where you

Darren Caveney: 00:20:22

can have most influence, isn't it?

Darren Caveney: 00:20:23

Not just on your team, but on the wider organization, because I did find

Darren Caveney: 00:20:28

when I was in more junior roles that.

Darren Caveney: 00:20:30

You knew things weren't being done the right way and you'd talk to people

Darren Caveney: 00:20:33

in services and you'd try and Explain why there was a better way of doing

Darren Caveney: 00:20:37

something It would still be ignored or they'd go above your head and go

Darren Caveney: 00:20:41

to your director and have a moan about something and I thought Okay, so what I

Darren Caveney: 00:20:46

need to do here then is become the senior person so they can't go above my head

Darren Caveney: 00:20:52

Carrie-Ann Wade: Love it.

Darren Caveney: 00:20:52

Still say no, we're not doing it that way.

Darren Caveney: 00:20:55

So makes me sound really cantankerous doesn't it?

Darren Caveney: 00:20:58

Carrie-Ann Wade: No, it makes you sound like a man on a mission to create change.

Darren Caveney: 00:21:02

Yeah, but and keep things simple, just do things

Darren Caveney: 00:21:06

do things well, do them simply.

Darren Caveney: 00:21:08

And I think, yeah, being in the director role gives you the ability to,

Darren Caveney: 00:21:11

yeah, ignore things like frameworks.

Darren Caveney: 00:21:14

Cause I tell you what, if we'd gone through that framework, we wouldn't have

Darren Caveney: 00:21:17

done what we did and what we achieved.

Darren Caveney: 00:21:19

It wouldn't have happened.

Darren Caveney: 00:21:20

So I suppose it's that, I suppose having the inner confidence to just go and do

Darren Caveney: 00:21:26

these things, which is probably part of your supplementary question, isn't it?

Darren Caveney: 00:21:29

Because yeah so I think having been a director for a couple of years,

Darren Caveney: 00:21:35

and I'd already set up comms 2.

Darren Caveney: 00:21:37

0 in the background, which, was this kind of online work, online work,

Darren Caveney: 00:21:41

learning area and space and a place where we could share good practice.

Darren Caveney: 00:21:45

And think for all of us, none of us are the finished article, aren't we?

Darren Caveney: 00:21:48

Yes, paid for traditional courses are great, but again,

Darren Caveney: 00:21:52

not everybody can do that.

Darren Caveney: 00:21:53

And I've always believed there's many ways to learn.

Darren Caveney: 00:21:56

Having told you about my schooling and college days, the traditional

Darren Caveney: 00:22:00

academic route doesn't really suit me.

Darren Caveney: 00:22:02

I like to just get involved in stuff and learn that way.

Darren Caveney: 00:22:05

And, Comms 2.0 and tell you there's a little bit of that.

Darren Caveney: 00:22:07

So look, there is a different way to learn.

Darren Caveney: 00:22:09

It doesn't have to be one way.

Darren Caveney: 00:22:11

I'd wanted to.

Darren Caveney: 00:22:12

Be a consultant off the back of that for two years before I did it.

Darren Caveney: 00:22:15

But I was worried about, the mortgage and feeding the kids.

Darren Caveney: 00:22:19

Same as everybody used to max that decision.

Darren Caveney: 00:22:22

But then there was a moment in time.

Darren Caveney: 00:22:23

And actually, I think I can say this.

Darren Caveney: 00:22:26

Yeah, I'd, what I was doing, I was being asked to do paid full

Darren Caveney: 00:22:29

work while I was still in a job.

Darren Caveney: 00:22:31

And so I always did that with the blessing of my bosses and HR and things.

Darren Caveney: 00:22:35

And I'd essentially take annual leave to go and do what I really wanted to do.

Darren Caveney: 00:22:40

And there was a particular project where I won't bore you too much with it, but

Darren Caveney: 00:22:44

effectively it was, will you come and speak at this event in the Middle East?

Darren Caveney: 00:22:48

This sounds exciting.

Darren Caveney: 00:22:50

And it turned into, will you run our two day event?

Darren Caveney: 00:22:53

Will you host it for us in the Middle East?

Darren Caveney: 00:22:56

And it was just at a time when kind of ISIS was kicking off and the event was in

Darren Caveney: 00:22:59

Jordan kind of border in Syria and things.

Darren Caveney: 00:23:02

And so this sounds a little bit scary.

Darren Caveney: 00:23:05

For kids from Birmingham, do we, do I want to go and do this?

Darren Caveney: 00:23:07

But I did it and it was the most amazing experience.

Darren Caveney: 00:23:10

And I was on the plane coming back and I thought, This is what I want to do.

Darren Caveney: 00:23:15

Not that I've gone back since it's been anything like that!

Darren Caveney: 00:23:17

Ha

Darren Caveney: 00:23:18

Carrie-Ann Wade: But you just had that moment where you knew it was time

Darren Caveney: 00:23:21

to step away from being a salaried director of comms to doing your thing.

Darren Caveney: 00:23:26

And it's just a case of being brave and it's Just a case

Darren Caveney: 00:23:29

of saying, okay, I will work hard.

Darren Caveney: 00:23:31

I will make it work.

Darren Caveney: 00:23:33

And if it doesn't work for whatever reason, it won't be for the one to try

Darren Caveney: 00:23:37

and I'll just go back and get another job.

Darren Caveney: 00:23:40

And it was, yeah, it was just, I think it's an age thing as well.

Darren Caveney: 00:23:44

Cause when was that?

Darren Caveney: 00:23:44

That was nine years ago.

Darren Caveney: 00:23:46

So yeah, I was, mid 40s when I was having these thoughts.

Darren Caveney: 00:23:50

I think the 40s are

Darren Caveney: 00:23:52

Carrie-Ann Wade: Yes, I can absolutely confirm that the 40s are funny years.

Darren Caveney: 00:23:56

You start making some different life choices and thinking about

Darren Caveney: 00:24:01

what's most important to you in terms of purpose and what brings you

Darren Caveney: 00:24:04

joy and where you can have impact.

Darren Caveney: 00:24:06

So I can absolutely see that might have been similar for you.

Darren Caveney: 00:24:09

Yeah.

Darren Caveney: 00:24:10

Woohoo.

Darren Caveney: 00:24:11

I think I wouldn't have done it in my 30s.

Darren Caveney: 00:24:13

I wouldn't have had the bravery to do it, to be honest.

Darren Caveney: 00:24:15

I wouldn't have had the experience to do it either in truth.

Darren Caveney: 00:24:18

But yeah, the 50s are better than the 40s.

Darren Caveney: 00:24:20

Can I say that?

Darren Caveney: 00:24:21

Carrie-Ann Wade: I'm going to look forward to that.

Darren Caveney: 00:24:23

Not that you're anywhere near that, of course

Darren Caveney: 00:24:25

Carrie-Ann Wade: I'm creeping up there.

Darren Caveney: 00:24:26

I'm creeping up there Darren.

Darren Caveney: 00:24:28

Yeah, it was the oddest thing and I thought, it's now or never,

Darren Caveney: 00:24:30

if you don't do it now, you never will.

Darren Caveney: 00:24:31

Just be brave, step up, give it a go.

Darren Caveney: 00:24:34

Carrie-Ann Wade: I love it.

Darren Caveney: 00:24:35

What's the worst that can happen?

Darren Caveney: 00:24:36

And I always joked if the house gets repossessed, there's

Darren Caveney: 00:24:39

always the car to sleep in.

Darren Caveney: 00:24:40

And, touch wood, so far, that hasn't happened.

Darren Caveney: 00:24:50

Carrie-Ann Wade: if you're an aspiring communications leader who's looking

Darren Caveney: 00:24:53

for a safe space to work through your next steps or you want to become more

Darren Caveney: 00:24:56

boundaried and intentional in the workplace or even in your career, why

Darren Caveney: 00:25:01

not check out the individual and group mentoring offers with Cats Pajamas.

Darren Caveney: 00:25:05

You can find out more at cats-pajamas.co.Uk or over on our socials.

Darren Caveney: 00:25:10

All the links are in the show notes.

Darren Caveney: 00:25:13

So that's a bit of an insight into why become a comms director and then why take

Darren Caveney: 00:25:18

an even bolder step and do your own thing.

Darren Caveney: 00:25:21

And I just wondered and I guess in either of those roles that you've

Darren Caveney: 00:25:25

played from a sort of leadership point of view, what have been your

Darren Caveney: 00:25:28

biggest challenges, would you say?

Darren Caveney: 00:25:32

I think, because if we're honest, we've all worked

Darren Caveney: 00:25:36

places where cultures have been poor, leadership's been poor.

Darren Caveney: 00:25:39

And I think you actually need a bit of that.

Darren Caveney: 00:25:41

I think it makes you appreciate when organizations aren't like that.

Darren Caveney: 00:25:46

It also helps shape, I think, how you want to behave and how you want to lead

Darren Caveney: 00:25:50

and how you want to be with people.

Darren Caveney: 00:25:53

But I did work in an organization where the culture, the word

Darren Caveney: 00:25:57

toxic's overused, isn't it?

Darren Caveney: 00:25:59

But there was quite a toxic culture there and you don't always fully understand it.

Darren Caveney: 00:26:03

understand and appreciate how bad it is when you're in the eye

Darren Caveney: 00:26:06

of the storm, it's not right.

Darren Caveney: 00:26:08

And I think for me, surviving that place was actually one of my biggest challenges.

Darren Caveney: 00:26:16

And I think not becoming toxic yourself.

Darren Caveney: 00:26:19

I always remember having a chat with, I won't name him just in case it ever

Darren Caveney: 00:26:22

got back, but he was a brilliant chap and he was another head of service.

Darren Caveney: 00:26:25

And he, we were chatting one day and he said, what's the matter Daz?

Darren Caveney: 00:26:29

And I went, Oh, it's this place.

Darren Caveney: 00:26:31

He said, what is it?

Darren Caveney: 00:26:32

And I explained to him, he said, your problem, I was like, Oh, go

Darren Caveney: 00:26:36

Carrie-Ann Wade: Oh, here we go.

Darren Caveney: 00:26:37

It

Darren Caveney: 00:26:38

I liked him.

Darren Caveney: 00:26:38

So I knew it was going to be useful feedback.

Darren Caveney: 00:26:40

And he said You've come in here and you're trying to make a difference

Darren Caveney: 00:26:44

and actually people don't want it.

Darren Caveney: 00:26:46

, I wasn't the only one trying to make a difference.

Darren Caveney: 00:26:48

It wasn't, I wasn't like, some lone crusader, but other people were as

Darren Caveney: 00:26:51

well, but it just wasn't possible.

Darren Caveney: 00:26:54

And he said, so what you need to do is either go somewhere else where

Darren Caveney: 00:26:57

you can do your own thing and change things or become like me, sell

Darren Caveney: 00:27:02

your soul and just get on with it.

Darren Caveney: 00:27:04

He said, and I sleep like a baby at night.

Darren Caveney: 00:27:05

I'm fine with it.

Darren Caveney: 00:27:06

He said, but not everybody's cut that way.

Darren Caveney: 00:27:09

And I knew that I wasn't.

Darren Caveney: 00:27:11

That was a challenge to survive it and get out of it.

Darren Caveney: 00:27:15

And I suppose, in the game we've all had this, haven't we?

Darren Caveney: 00:27:18

Unpleasant bosses.

Darren Caveney: 00:27:19

, you've worked in comms for long enough, you've probably had a terrible boss

Darren Caveney: 00:27:23

at some point, and there's that stat isn't there about, people don't leave

Darren Caveney: 00:27:26

jobs, they leave bosses and probably some truth in that, isn't there?

Darren Caveney: 00:27:30

So I think those were challenges as well.

Darren Caveney: 00:27:33

And how you cope, I suppose sometimes it's a bit, it's the balance, isn't it?

Darren Caveney: 00:27:37

Between being honest and feeding back and sometimes having to just swallow it up.

Darren Caveney: 00:27:44

Carrie-Ann Wade: Yeah.

Darren Caveney: 00:27:44

And it's really hard, isn't it, when you're somebody who operates with

Darren Caveney: 00:27:47

a lot of integrity and you have a lot of passion for what you want

Darren Caveney: 00:27:50

to achieve for the organization sometimes to get that balance right?

Darren Caveney: 00:27:55

Because you, it's very exhausting to constantly be the person who is

Darren Caveney: 00:27:59

trying to feed back and challenge if it's falling on deaf ears.

Darren Caveney: 00:28:03

Equally, if you're the person, like the colleague you mentioned, who's

Darren Caveney: 00:28:07

just okay with sucking it up and just getting on with it, if you've

Darren Caveney: 00:28:11

got a lot of professional integrity, that feels really hard because it

Darren Caveney: 00:28:14

feels like doing nothing is almost as complicit as being a person that's

Darren Caveney: 00:28:18

demonstrating some of that bad behavior.

Darren Caveney: 00:28:20

So it can be a very emotionally draining place to be, can't it?

Darren Caveney: 00:28:25

And when you're working in that sort of environment.

Darren Caveney: 00:28:27

yeah, no, absolutely.

Darren Caveney: 00:28:29

Absolutely.

Darren Caveney: 00:28:30

And in a way I respected him massively for being able to do it.

Darren Caveney: 00:28:32

I just knew that I couldn't do it.

Darren Caveney: 00:28:34

Carrie-Ann Wade: Yeah.

Darren Caveney: 00:28:35

I just knew that, I did have the Sunday nights and I

Darren Caveney: 00:28:37

just thought, we'll come on to this later, but Sunday nights are horrible.

Darren Caveney: 00:28:41

And we've probably all had them at different points, but they're not good.

Darren Caveney: 00:28:44

And if you can remove the Sunday nights, then that has to be a good thing.

Darren Caveney: 00:28:48

So I left, I removed the Sunday nights.

Darren Caveney: 00:28:52

Carrie-Ann Wade: There's lots of brave decisions happening in this conversation

Darren Caveney: 00:28:55

that you're reflecting on Darren.

Darren Caveney: 00:28:57

So thank you.

Darren Caveney: 00:28:58

In terms of, we talked a bit about highlights of your communications

Darren Caveney: 00:29:03

career and pre comms career to date.

Darren Caveney: 00:29:06

But I wondered what you might consider your biggest success.

Darren Caveney: 00:29:12

It's a good question, isn't it?

Darren Caveney: 00:29:13

I've already mentioned Comms 2.0, I won't mention that.

Darren Caveney: 00:29:16

I think one of them, is I've been involved in mentoring now for probably

Darren Caveney: 00:29:21

about a dozen years, and I think.

Darren Caveney: 00:29:24

Meeting some amazing people, many of whom are now friends, and still message

Darren Caveney: 00:29:28

each other and still see each other.

Darren Caveney: 00:29:30

I'm not mentoring anymore and there are probably times when they were

Darren Caveney: 00:29:32

mentoring me anyway, but seeing the turnaround in some of those people,

Darren Caveney: 00:29:36

because you tend to get involved with someone, In a mentoring aspects, and

Darren Caveney: 00:29:41

you know all about this because you've been doing it as well, haven't you?

Darren Caveney: 00:29:44

The tends, they tend to be in a place where maybe things aren't brilliant.

Darren Caveney: 00:29:49

So that's why they've got involved in mentoring.

Darren Caveney: 00:29:51

They've come to you and to yourself because they need a bit of support.

Darren Caveney: 00:29:55

They need a bit of help.

Darren Caveney: 00:29:57

And I think seeing the turnaround, some of those people again, I won't

Darren Caveney: 00:30:00

name them, but staggering turnarounds.

Darren Caveney: 00:30:04

And now, absolutely cream of the crop, brilliant senior comms amazing things

Darren Caveney: 00:30:11

who have come from not a bad place, but a less than good place, shall we say.

Darren Caveney: 00:30:15

And I think that's something that, it's a two way thing mentoring, isn't it?

Darren Caveney: 00:30:19

Cause you get a lot out of it personally.

Darren Caveney: 00:30:20

So I'm sure you do.

Darren Caveney: 00:30:22

But I think that would be one of the biggest successes.

Darren Caveney: 00:30:24

Cause I'd love to see people do well.

Darren Caveney: 00:30:26

Carrie-Ann Wade: That ability to help people grow and thrive, like you say,

Darren Caveney: 00:30:29

no matter how small your part in that might be, is just wonderful, isn't it,

Darren Caveney: 00:30:32

where you see maybe where somebody's come to you and the place that they're in.

Darren Caveney: 00:30:37

And then you see in the future where they've managed to get to and refocus and

Darren Caveney: 00:30:41

what they've achieved is, yeah, there's, it's very joyful to, to see that for sure.

Darren Caveney: 00:30:46

Very typical of you, Darren, to talk about your successes being about other

Darren Caveney: 00:30:50

people rather than about yourself.

Darren Caveney: 00:30:52

Nobody likes your show.

Darren Caveney: 00:30:54

Carrie-Ann Wade: No, and comms people don't like being the

Darren Caveney: 00:30:56

show offs either, do they?

Darren Caveney: 00:30:58

So it's such a funny place to be in when you're celebrating the

Darren Caveney: 00:31:01

successes of everyone else, but find it really hard to do it for yourself.

Darren Caveney: 00:31:05

I think as a director as well, that is

Darren Caveney: 00:31:07

part of your remit, isn't it?

Darren Caveney: 00:31:08

It is about helping to develop people and remember being in one role and we

Darren Caveney: 00:31:13

got an interview panel and it's an awful thing to say, but you know when you know

Darren Caveney: 00:31:18

you're interviewing five people and the first person came in and she was just.

Darren Caveney: 00:31:23

Brilliant.

Darren Caveney: 00:31:23

And I just thought, can't say this out loud, but barring something

Darren Caveney: 00:31:29

weird happening, you've got this job.

Darren Caveney: 00:31:31

And afterwards, somebody on the interview, and we did offer the job.

Darren Caveney: 00:31:33

We did do the proper, full and proper process, but we offered her the job.

Darren Caveney: 00:31:38

And one of the panel said to me afterwards, are you

Darren Caveney: 00:31:40

going to offer it to her?

Darren Caveney: 00:31:42

And I said, yeah, why?

Darren Caveney: 00:31:44

Aren't you worried that she'll want your job?

Darren Caveney: 00:31:46

And I said, that's a good thing.

Darren Caveney: 00:31:49

Wanted to get my job.

Darren Caveney: 00:31:50

I don't want this job forever.

Darren Caveney: 00:31:52

I want to get to do other things.

Darren Caveney: 00:31:54

I want that.

Darren Caveney: 00:31:55

But it was a weird thought and I just genuinely hadn't thought of

Darren Caveney: 00:31:58

it from the other way that you'd recruit someone that actually had

Darren Caveney: 00:32:02

some ambition and some ability.

Darren Caveney: 00:32:03

Carrie-Ann Wade: But the amount of people that I've worked with who I see so much

Darren Caveney: 00:32:07

potential in them and I often say to people, I can't wait until you're my boss.

Darren Caveney: 00:32:11

I genuinely can't wait for you to be my boss because you're going to be such

Darren Caveney: 00:32:15

a brilliant comms leader that whoever, including myself, gets to work with you in

Darren Caveney: 00:32:20

that capacity, are going to be very lucky.

Darren Caveney: 00:32:22

So that's almost the dream, isn't it?

Darren Caveney: 00:32:24

But it's funny how some people can't get their head around that and are like, no,

Darren Caveney: 00:32:28

actually that's the succession plan is to recruit people who are better than me

Darren Caveney: 00:32:32

. Probably the bit of the conversation, having talked for so long already, that

Darren Caveney: 00:32:37

listeners are really keen to hear, and it's why I save it till the end, because

Darren Caveney: 00:32:41

obviously we want to keep the listeners on as long as possible, is really, in your

Darren Caveney: 00:32:46

experience and from everything that you've been through, Darren, Some advice that

Darren Caveney: 00:32:51

you might give to aspiring communications directors or leaders, whatever that may

Darren Caveney: 00:32:56

look like, because what's been lovely talking to you is you've got that director

Darren Caveney: 00:33:00

experience in an organization, but you're also leading your own business and

Darren Caveney: 00:33:04

you're a director in that sense as well.

Darren Caveney: 00:33:06

So words of wisdom and advice from Darren Caveney for aspiring comms leaders.

Darren Caveney: 00:33:12

Again, because I did my prep I've written down a top 10.

Darren Caveney: 00:33:15

Carrie-Ann Wade: Love it.

Darren Caveney: 00:33:15

I'll whistle through them quick.

Darren Caveney: 00:33:17

We need the

Darren Caveney: 00:33:17

Carrie-Ann Wade: Are we going ten to, ten to one or one to, oh, is

Darren Caveney: 00:33:22

it like a countdown or a count up?

Darren Caveney: 00:33:25

think, I think we're doing a count up.

Darren Caveney: 00:33:28

Yeah, we'll do a count up.

Darren Caveney: 00:33:29

Yeah, we'll do a count up.

Darren Caveney: 00:33:30

Number one, don't tolerate bad employers because I did that for five years.

Darren Caveney: 00:33:36

In a sense, I was trapped.

Darren Caveney: 00:33:38

It's because austerity had come in and literally all the good

Darren Caveney: 00:33:41

jobs were just stopped overnight.

Darren Caveney: 00:33:43

So it's like the tide went out and I was stuck.

Darren Caveney: 00:33:46

Carrie-Ann Wade: stranded there,

Darren Caveney: 00:33:48

literally was but I did get out.

Darren Caveney: 00:33:50

So don't tolerate bad employer.

Darren Caveney: 00:33:51

There's loads of work out there.

Darren Caveney: 00:33:53

We know this.

Darren Caveney: 00:33:54

There's tons of jobs out there.

Darren Caveney: 00:33:56

Know it can be tricky getting them, I know, we've all been through that

Darren Caveney: 00:33:58

process of trying to secure jobs and it can be particularly hard as a candidate,

Darren Caveney: 00:34:04

being rejected and getting terrible feedback and all that sort of stuff.

Darren Caveney: 00:34:08

But, get out, if you've got the Sunday nights.

Darren Caveney: 00:34:13

Obviously money can get in the way of that.

Darren Caveney: 00:34:15

And there's financial considerations, of course.

Darren Caveney: 00:34:17

But if you can make it happen, just get out.

Darren Caveney: 00:34:19

Don't put up with bad employers.

Darren Caveney: 00:34:21

Number two is on the same thing.

Darren Caveney: 00:34:23

Don't put up with unpleasant people.

Darren Caveney: 00:34:25

That's in life in general.

Darren Caveney: 00:34:28

And I had, again, it was the forties did it for me.

Darren Caveney: 00:34:30

Moments of clarity when I thought, why do I put up with them?

Darren Caveney: 00:34:33

Carrie-Ann Wade: But do you find a lot of comms people are like naturally

Darren Caveney: 00:34:37

from a people pleasing background?

Darren Caveney: 00:34:39

So that's probably why we put up with unpleasant people more.

Darren Caveney: 00:34:42

So than others do.

Darren Caveney: 00:34:44

you're right.

Darren Caveney: 00:34:44

I think you're right.

Darren Caveney: 00:34:45

And but I think, yeah as I approached my fifties, I found that I just

Darren Caveney: 00:34:49

got much better at that and just thought I'm not putting up with this.

Darren Caveney: 00:34:54

Carrie-Ann Wade: And it's about your boundaries, isn't it?

Darren Caveney: 00:34:55

Which I love talking about, like being really clear what they are

Darren Caveney: 00:34:58

and where the right places are for you to spend your energy.

Darren Caveney: 00:35:01

So if it's not with those unpleasant people, time for them to.

Darren Caveney: 00:35:06

Yes.

Darren Caveney: 00:35:07

Yeah.

Darren Caveney: 00:35:07

A hundred percent agree.

Darren Caveney: 00:35:09

Number three, again, similar thing, but it was, if you've got the Sunday

Darren Caveney: 00:35:13

nights, you've got to change it.

Darren Caveney: 00:35:15

It won't change on its own.

Darren Caveney: 00:35:17

Probably.

Darren Caveney: 00:35:17

Will it?

Darren Caveney: 00:35:18

It can do, cause actually.

Darren Caveney: 00:35:20

If you've got a good or a bad chief exec, for example, that can have a

Darren Caveney: 00:35:23

massive impact on your work and also your personal life as well, can't it?

Darren Caveney: 00:35:28

A good one and a bad one, the differences can be quite stark.

Darren Caveney: 00:35:32

If you've got the Sunday nights, you've got to change that.

Darren Caveney: 00:35:35

You've got to do something about it because cliche of all cliches, isn't it?

Darren Caveney: 00:35:39

Life is very much too short.

Darren Caveney: 00:35:40

So Sunday nights, it's a red flag.

Darren Caveney: 00:35:43

You've got to get out.

Darren Caveney: 00:35:44

The rest, I think, are a bit more upbeat.

Darren Caveney: 00:35:46

Carrie-Ann Wade: We're counting it up in a more positive way now.

Darren Caveney: 00:35:49

Number four.

Darren Caveney: 00:35:50

This is true.

Darren Caveney: 00:35:51

I forget where I saw or read this or who said it first.

Darren Caveney: 00:35:55

But it's absolutely true because it happened to me.

Darren Caveney: 00:35:58

If you walk into an organization for a job interview and their brand values are

Darren Caveney: 00:36:03

written on the wall, get out because what it tells you is there's a problem and.

Darren Caveney: 00:36:09

I had this experience and I walked in for an interview and the brand values are all

Darren Caveney: 00:36:13

over the wall in the reception area and I thought, oh, I remember that advice.

Darren Caveney: 00:36:17

Anyway I did go for the job.

Darren Caveney: 00:36:19

I ended up getting it long and torturous process and the values were just cosmetic.

Darren Caveney: 00:36:26

Carrie-Ann Wade: Just written on the wall.

Darren Caveney: 00:36:27

They weren't in the actions of the people who were around you.

Darren Caveney: 00:36:32

Don't tell us, show us.

Darren Caveney: 00:36:33

Carrie-Ann Wade: Yeah.

Darren Caveney: 00:36:34

It's that, isn't it?

Darren Caveney: 00:36:35

It's really simple.

Darren Caveney: 00:36:36

All of this stuff is simple.

Darren Caveney: 00:36:37

This is why you don't need to read a management book.

Darren Caveney: 00:36:40

It's

Darren Caveney: 00:36:40

Carrie-Ann Wade: need to write the management Darren Caveney's top 10

Darren Caveney: 00:36:44

ways to be a brilliant comms leader.

Darren Caveney: 00:36:46

There you go.

Darren Caveney: 00:36:47

That's your next project.

Darren Caveney: 00:36:48

It would soon be on Amazon for 99p.

Darren Caveney: 00:36:54

Carrie-Ann Wade: dedication at the front.

Darren Caveney: 00:36:56

Absolutely.

Darren Caveney: 00:36:57

Inspired by number five.

Darren Caveney: 00:36:59

They are getting better now, I promise.

Darren Caveney: 00:37:00

Number five, work on things you care about.

Darren Caveney: 00:37:04

And again, that sounds quite precious, doesn't it?

Darren Caveney: 00:37:05

And we don't all always have that choice and that luxury.

Darren Caveney: 00:37:09

But where you can, just work on things that you care about.

Darren Caveney: 00:37:12

It makes such a big difference, doesn't it?

Darren Caveney: 00:37:13

To work for an organisation or for a brand.

Darren Caveney: 00:37:18

That you actually really believe in, as opposed to one that you're

Darren Caveney: 00:37:21

treading water with a little bit.

Darren Caveney: 00:37:22

It just, it transforms the job, to be honest, that you

Darren Caveney: 00:37:27

actually really do care about it.

Darren Caveney: 00:37:29

Number six is linked to that, but not necessarily just inside work.

Darren Caveney: 00:37:33

It's find your passion projects.

Darren Caveney: 00:37:35

In truth, Comms 2.

Darren Caveney: 00:37:36

0 was that for me when I was in house and a little bit

Darren Caveney: 00:37:39

disillusioned about some stuff.

Darren Caveney: 00:37:42

Comms 2.0 is a passion projects and find yours Doesn't even

Darren Caveney: 00:37:46

have to be work related.

Darren Caveney: 00:37:48

It could be something completely non comms related.

Darren Caveney: 00:37:51

But yeah, so whether it's you know working for an organization

Darren Caveney: 00:37:56

pro bono that you believe in or just creating your own things.

Darren Caveney: 00:37:59

I launched something a couple of weeks ago with a couple of

Darren Caveney: 00:38:01

people called Walkies and Talkies.

Darren Caveney: 00:38:02

You don't have to have a dog, but those that have got dogs, we're going

Darren Caveney: 00:38:05

to be meeting up and we're going to go off the beaten track, some

Darren Caveney: 00:38:08

beautiful parts of the UK for a walk.

Darren Caveney: 00:38:11

If you haven't got a dog, You're still very welcome and it's walkies and talkies

Darren Caveney: 00:38:14

and you know it's just another example of just doing stuff that you care about

Darren Caveney: 00:38:18

and meeting people and I don't know how many people turn up the first one's in the

Darren Caveney: 00:38:23

middle of Herefordshire so it's definitely off the beaten track and but it doesn't

Darren Caveney: 00:38:27

matter it doesn't matter if it's only four people not about the scale so yeah

Darren Caveney: 00:38:31

find your passion projects and you can get so much from them it's number seven

Darren Caveney: 00:38:36

and I was really poor at this in my early career, except that you can't be good at

Darren Caveney: 00:38:40

everything because Often as comms people, I wouldn't say we're perfectionists,

Darren Caveney: 00:38:46

but we're on that scale, aren't we?

Darren Caveney: 00:38:47

And I just try to be great at everything, and I still do this a little bit.

Darren Caveney: 00:38:52

I will try and deliver everything and not in a kind of controlling way, but Just

Darren Caveney: 00:38:57

thinking no, I'll do that, I'll do that.

Darren Caveney: 00:38:59

And actually, the art of delegating and finding those people that are

Darren Caveney: 00:39:02

way better than you at doing things is a definite skill and it's just

Darren Caveney: 00:39:07

one that you grow into and become more comfortable with, isn't it?

Darren Caveney: 00:39:09

And now I'm the opposite.

Darren Caveney: 00:39:11

I rarely do anything myself, I just find other people who are far more

Darren Caveney: 00:39:14

skillful than me to come and do things.

Darren Caveney: 00:39:17

So yeah, just accept you can't, as a director, you

Darren Caveney: 00:39:19

shouldn't be good at everything.

Darren Caveney: 00:39:21

Just be good at being a director.

Darren Caveney: 00:39:22

That's it.

Darren Caveney: 00:39:23

Carrie-Ann Wade: Think that's really good advice actually.

Darren Caveney: 00:39:25

And that's good advice for people outside of comms, because I think

Darren Caveney: 00:39:29

there is an expectation that a comms person can do everything.

Darren Caveney: 00:39:33

And I've worked in organizations and I've worked with people who are part

Darren Caveney: 00:39:37

of other organizations where it's like, Oh, we just need, it's almost like we

Darren Caveney: 00:39:40

just need a comms manager and they'll be able to do it all from everything at

Darren Caveney: 00:39:44

Support level all the way up to being the director, but like in one individual.

Darren Caveney: 00:39:49

And it's that's just not possible on any level.

Darren Caveney: 00:39:52

So actually it's good advice for people to listen to who work outside of comms,

Darren Caveney: 00:39:56

but want to get the best from their comms teams as well, that you have to

Darren Caveney: 00:39:59

invest in the right skill mix to get the best compliment of comms skills

Darren Caveney: 00:40:04

and experience in your organization.

Darren Caveney: 00:40:07

Yeah, no, I really believe that it's just, it's

Darren Caveney: 00:40:10

common sense really, isn't it?

Darren Caveney: 00:40:11

I think number eight, we have touched upon it a little bit, but just that learning

Darren Caveney: 00:40:14

comes in many forms and it's not just a paid for course or a paid for workshop.

Darren Caveney: 00:40:19

There are so many things that you can do.

Darren Caveney: 00:40:21

So many things listening to your podcast, I've listened to other episodes, I

Darren Caveney: 00:40:25

learned things from podcasts every week.

Darren Caveney: 00:40:27

So I think an in a director, I think it's really important, isn't it?

Darren Caveney: 00:40:30

Particularly for those in the public sector, probably got little

Darren Caveney: 00:40:33

to no training budget anywhere.

Darren Caveney: 00:40:35

And it's just finding the things that are good for you, but then

Darren Caveney: 00:40:37

tailoring them to individuals.

Darren Caveney: 00:40:39

. I was always big on sending people.

Darren Caveney: 00:40:41

shadowing, right?

Darren Caveney: 00:40:42

Go over and see them because they're brilliant at X.

Darren Caveney: 00:40:45

Go and spend a day with them.

Darren Caveney: 00:40:46

Find out more, learn.

Darren Caveney: 00:40:48

Not everybody wants to do that.

Darren Caveney: 00:40:50

There's no one size fits all here, is there?

Darren Caveney: 00:40:52

But I think, yeah, learning does come in many forms.

Darren Caveney: 00:40:55

Number nine.

Darren Caveney: 00:40:55

And again, I wasn't always good at this.

Darren Caveney: 00:40:58

I think I've got a little bit better, but ask for help.

Darren Caveney: 00:41:01

Because actually, if you're a director or wanting to be a director,

Darren Caveney: 00:41:05

it can be quite a lonely role.

Darren Caveney: 00:41:06

It can be quite isolating.

Darren Caveney: 00:41:08

Particularly in comms.

Darren Caveney: 00:41:10

You're privy to so much in an organization, aren't you, that you can sit

Darren Caveney: 00:41:14

on some really quite delicate information.

Darren Caveney: 00:41:17

And sometimes it's what do you do with that?

Darren Caveney: 00:41:19

It's not the kind of stuff you can necessarily share.

Darren Caveney: 00:41:22

So it can be difficult.

Darren Caveney: 00:41:23

And that's why we've had, such a increase in mental health and well being issues

Darren Caveney: 00:41:27

over the past 20 years to be honest, but particularly since the pandemic.

Darren Caveney: 00:41:31

Asking for help is absolutely vital and the comms community is

Darren Caveney: 00:41:35

the best community in the world.

Darren Caveney: 00:41:36

Like we'll meet and have a chat and we could have chatted for an

Darren Caveney: 00:41:39

hour before even going through any of these questions, couldn't we?

Darren Caveney: 00:41:42

Because It's such an amazing network of really helpful people.

Darren Caveney: 00:41:46

There's someone out there that can help you, so don't be a stranger, ask for help.

Darren Caveney: 00:41:50

Ask me, ask you, ask, and if, I suppose for people more junior, coming

Darren Caveney: 00:41:55

up the ranks, might not necessarily have the established network, just

Darren Caveney: 00:41:59

build your network, or join other networks just don't be alone with

Darren Caveney: 00:42:03

things, and always ask for help.

Darren Caveney: 00:42:05

It's a bit rich, because I didn't always do that.

Darren Caveney: 00:42:08

Carrie-Ann Wade: Particularly when you're a person that always helps other people

Darren Caveney: 00:42:11

it can be even harder to go actually I'm the one who needs to reach out now because

Darren Caveney: 00:42:14

you're so used to being that support mechanism for so many other people.

Darren Caveney: 00:42:18

that's the thing though, isn't it?

Darren Caveney: 00:42:19

Easier to help someone than to ask for help yourself.

Darren Caveney: 00:42:23

And the final one, everyone Number 10, and I think the most important of

Darren Caveney: 00:42:28

the lot, Prioritize your own mental health, and be selfish about it.

Darren Caveney: 00:42:32

Selfish is the wrong word, but i, we've all been in those spaces, but I nag

Darren Caveney: 00:42:37

people all the time now about taking lunch breaks, blocking out time in the diary.

Darren Caveney: 00:42:42

We're in, we're not in a good place with mental health and wellbeing.

Darren Caveney: 00:42:45

We should be better at it by now.

Darren Caveney: 00:42:47

There was surveys on, on LinkedIn, wasn't there just last week about this?

Darren Caveney: 00:42:50

And it's getting worse, not better.

Darren Caveney: 00:42:52

And it will continue to get worse.

Darren Caveney: 00:42:53

And I think I say this to teams that I work with all the time, you've got

Darren Caveney: 00:42:57

to take control of your own diary.

Darren Caveney: 00:42:59

You've got to take control of your own meeting requests.

Darren Caveney: 00:43:01

You've got to take control of your emails.

Darren Caveney: 00:43:04

Because you'll just be a slave to it.

Darren Caveney: 00:43:06

And I've done it.

Darren Caveney: 00:43:07

I've been that person that's.

Darren Caveney: 00:43:08

done the 12 hour days and not had a lunch break and not necessarily

Darren Caveney: 00:43:13

been the best partner or father because I've been a bit absent.

Darren Caveney: 00:43:17

It's not good, it's not good on many levels and you just have to prioritise

Darren Caveney: 00:43:22

it and you have to be selfish because no one's going to come along and

Darren Caveney: 00:43:25

say to you, oh why don't you go and have a lunch break for an hour

Darren Caveney: 00:43:28

and a half you've got to put it in.

Darren Caveney: 00:43:30

You've got, everyone should be blocking out.

Darren Caveney: 00:43:32

I used to have a director who blocked out an hour every lunchtime, every single day.

Darren Caveney: 00:43:37

I thought you cheeky sod, the money you're on, and you've

Darren Caveney: 00:43:41

got an hour's lunch every day.

Darren Caveney: 00:43:42

Cause we weren't having lunch breaks.

Darren Caveney: 00:43:44

And I look back and reflect now and say, no, you were absolutely right.

Darren Caveney: 00:43:47

As in him, he was right.

Darren Caveney: 00:43:49

And I was totally wrong.

Darren Caveney: 00:43:50

So I do nag people about this now.

Darren Caveney: 00:43:52

And you can see people that.

Darren Caveney: 00:43:54

Struggling, I see it on my travels every week.

Darren Caveney: 00:43:58

You see it in teams and I think we have to prioritize it.

Darren Caveney: 00:44:01

And comms is a difficult job.

Darren Caveney: 00:44:03

Whether you're a director or you're an office, it doesn't really matter.

Darren Caveney: 00:44:06

But if you're a director and you're not looking after your own mental

Darren Caveney: 00:44:09

health and wellbeing, it'll have a negative impact on your team.

Darren Caveney: 00:44:13

I saw this when I was the person's sat scoffing a sandwich at my desk and looking

Darren Caveney: 00:44:18

around and everybody was doing the same.

Darren Caveney: 00:44:19

And I thought, you've got to change this.

Darren Caveney: 00:44:21

And I said we're doing it differently.

Darren Caveney: 00:44:23

And from that day onwards, we said everyone gets an hour's lunch.

Darren Caveney: 00:44:26

We'll have a 12 till 1 and then we'll have a 1 till 2.

Darren Caveney: 00:44:29

We're still covering the phones, all that kind of stuff.

Darren Caveney: 00:44:32

But we are doing this differently because we could sit here till 9 o'clock tonight.

Darren Caveney: 00:44:36

We still won't touch the sides of work.

Darren Caveney: 00:44:38

It will never go away.

Darren Caveney: 00:44:40

And, and I always say you can have the best comms strategy,

Darren Caveney: 00:44:43

the best resources in the world.

Darren Caveney: 00:44:44

But if your mental health and wellbeing is off.

Darren Caveney: 00:44:47

Doesn't matter.

Darren Caveney: 00:44:49

as a director, you've got to lead by example, practice what you preach.

Darren Caveney: 00:44:53

I'm not telling you anything you don't already know and haven't

Darren Caveney: 00:44:56

heard a billion times, but, for me, it's the number one piece of advice

Darren Caveney: 00:44:59

and I didn't always practice it.

Darren Caveney: 00:45:01

But I'm much, much better at it now.

Darren Caveney: 00:45:03

Carrie-Ann Wade: I love that is your number 10 in your top 10 and we're

Darren Caveney: 00:45:07

finishing on look after your mental health because actually like you say

Darren Caveney: 00:45:11

without that none of the rest of it matters does it so as you said whether

Darren Caveney: 00:45:16

you're a comms officer Comms director, that has to be your number one priority.

Darren Caveney: 00:45:20

And if you are the comms director, you do have to role model and make

Darren Caveney: 00:45:24

that the priority for your team as well, if they're not doing it for

Darren Caveney: 00:45:27

themselves, because it's about giving people that permission, isn't it?

Darren Caveney: 00:45:30

And I think people can sometimes when they're in more junior roles in a

Darren Caveney: 00:45:34

team, think that they can't say no to a meeting request or can't control how they

Darren Caveney: 00:45:39

use their time in their week at work.

Darren Caveney: 00:45:41

And actually we want teams at all levels feeling that they're able

Darren Caveney: 00:45:45

to do that because it's really important that they're empowered to.

Darren Caveney: 00:45:48

So I think that's such a good piece of final advice in your top 10.

Darren Caveney: 00:45:52

I love it.

Darren Caveney: 00:45:53

I love that you did the prep and you came up with the top 10 as well.

Darren Caveney: 00:45:56

On a Sunday night as well, could you believe it?

Darren Caveney: 00:45:58

You're a director of comms.

Darren Caveney: 00:45:59

Aren't you?

Darren Caveney: 00:45:59

And how do you find that?

Darren Caveney: 00:46:01

Cause you, you will, you're a good one,

Darren Caveney: 00:46:03

Carrie-Ann Wade: Oh, thanks.

Darren Caveney: 00:46:04

You have to say that because you're on my podcast.

Darren Caveney: 00:46:08

it's true.

Darren Caveney: 00:46:09

It's true.

Darren Caveney: 00:46:09

I've seen you live in action, so I know it to be true.

Darren Caveney: 00:46:13

But how do you lead by example on mental health and wellbeing?

Darren Caveney: 00:46:16

What do you do to make sure that your team

Darren Caveney: 00:46:18

Carrie-Ann Wade: I think it's talking about it.

Darren Caveney: 00:46:21

Like being open and talking about it is really important, as well as the

Darren Caveney: 00:46:25

doing the actions and role modeling it, but telling people it's okay.

Darren Caveney: 00:46:29

We have conversations a fair bit about being able to question why

Darren Caveney: 00:46:36

you've been in, so the meeting thing is massive in my current role.

Darren Caveney: 00:46:39

Everybody wants a comms person at the meeting to only not talk about

Darren Caveney: 00:46:43

comms at all and give them a one minute slot at the end of the agenda

Darren Caveney: 00:46:46

that's like totally pointless.

Darren Caveney: 00:46:48

So there's a lot about go and scope it out and then decide where comes

Darren Caveney: 00:46:53

adds the value because you can't be at everything all of the time because

Darren Caveney: 00:46:57

that's not good for your well being.

Darren Caveney: 00:46:59

I think that ability to be open and talk about what's going well as what's

Darren Caveney: 00:47:04

a challenge is really important.

Darren Caveney: 00:47:05

Also really important and we start our team meetings with

Darren Caveney: 00:47:08

the sparkle and the thank you.

Darren Caveney: 00:47:10

So the sparkles usually something that's non work related, like what lovely

Darren Caveney: 00:47:14

things happened to us in the last week.

Darren Caveney: 00:47:17

So you get a bit of an insight into people's lives outside of work.

Darren Caveney: 00:47:20

And the thank yous, just a reminder that we're all doing brilliant things in the

Darren Caveney: 00:47:25

team and to thank each other for that.

Darren Caveney: 00:47:27

So if somebody in the team's done something that's really helped you and

Darren Caveney: 00:47:30

usually those are things that really help take the weight off somebody.

Darren Caveney: 00:47:34

giving them some support, helped them from a sort of well being

Darren Caveney: 00:47:37

and managing their work point of view, which is really lovely.

Darren Caveney: 00:47:41

But that ability to communicate and be open about what you're going through.

Darren Caveney: 00:47:45

And like my biggest thing that I've talked to my team and my deputy about

Darren Caveney: 00:47:49

over the last 18 months or so has been about the fact that I'm perimenopausal.

Darren Caveney: 00:47:53

And that means I forget words and that's really hard when you're a communicator.

Darren Caveney: 00:47:58

And it means I might just decide I need to have a big cry or whatever the thing is.

Darren Caveney: 00:48:03

And actually I've had feedback from my deputies said I've really appreciated

Darren Caveney: 00:48:07

you being open about that because I'm a guy in my thirties, who's not really got

Darren Caveney: 00:48:13

this experience yet, but it's actually really helping me outside of work as

Darren Caveney: 00:48:17

well as in work for you talking about it.

Darren Caveney: 00:48:19

So I just think if you're able to use your role and your voice to share.

Darren Caveney: 00:48:25

the things that are difficult as well as the things that are great that

Darren Caveney: 00:48:28

just makes for an environment where people feel more able to be open.

Darren Caveney: 00:48:32

Sorry, I'm waffling on.

Darren Caveney: 00:48:34

No, this is great advice.

Darren Caveney: 00:48:36

See, I should have interviewed you.

Darren Caveney: 00:48:37

You'd have come up with some best tips.

Darren Caveney: 00:48:39

Carrie-Ann Wade: But it is important, isn't it?

Darren Caveney: 00:48:41

To be able to just be as open as you can be.

Darren Caveney: 00:48:45

Some of that's about cultures, a lot of what you talked about around

Darren Caveney: 00:48:48

cultures really resonated with me and roles that I've had, in, in my career

Darren Caveney: 00:48:53

and where you feel maybe stifled by it or complicit in it or not able to

Darren Caveney: 00:48:57

challenge it, but actually if you can.

Darren Caveney: 00:48:59

Be that person who tries to talk openly and authentically, and I can only talk as

Darren Caveney: 00:49:05

you can from your own personal experience.

Darren Caveney: 00:49:07

So you're not trying to be a guru and this is the way to do it, but if it

Darren Caveney: 00:49:11

works for you and you can talk about it, I think that helps to create, at

Darren Caveney: 00:49:15

least within your team some of that positive culture where it's okay to

Darren Caveney: 00:49:19

not be okay sometimes and to prioritize your wellbeing over the workload.

Darren Caveney: 00:49:24

Yes, yeah, I think those are really wise words.

Darren Caveney: 00:49:28

Carrie-Ann Wade: Oh, what a lovely end.

Darren Caveney: 00:49:29

I could talk to you forever, but I know we can't because the listeners have

Darren Caveney: 00:49:32

probably finished their ironing or been on 10 runs by now or whatever it is they

Darren Caveney: 00:49:36

do when they listen to this podcast.

Darren Caveney: 00:49:38

All that remains for me to say, but I'm sure there might be opportunities

Darren Caveney: 00:49:41

to have other conversations like this.

Darren Caveney: 00:49:44

I do hope, Darren, but a massive thank you for sharing your insights,

Darren Caveney: 00:49:48

your experience, your career.

Darren Caveney: 00:49:50

Highs and challenges to date but most importantly the bit I've

Darren Caveney: 00:49:53

loved the most is your top 10 tips for aspiring communications

Darren Caveney: 00:49:58

leaders so that's been brilliant.

Darren Caveney: 00:50:00

Thank you so much for your time Darren.

Darren Caveney: 00:50:02

If people want to connect with you how did they do that?

Darren Caveney: 00:50:04

I'm

Darren Caveney: 00:50:05

thank you.

Darren Caveney: 00:50:06

Yeah, if they go to comms2point0.co.Uk, all the contact details are on there.

Darren Caveney: 00:50:11

And yeah, I'm on I'm still on Twitter.

Darren Caveney: 00:50:14

It's only me left there now.

Darren Caveney: 00:50:16

It's not X, it's still Twitter, isn't it?

Darren Caveney: 00:50:19

And and LinkedIn is great these days, isn't it?

Darren Caveney: 00:50:21

It's just really great.

Darren Caveney: 00:50:22

Really thriving.

Darren Caveney: 00:50:23

Carrie-Ann Wade: it's filled a space that it wasn't before, which is really nice.

Darren Caveney: 00:50:27

Yeah.

Darren Caveney: 00:50:28

And I think you can, you can avoid the silliness of Twitter

Darren Caveney: 00:50:31

and Facebook, can't you?

Darren Caveney: 00:50:32

And just talk to some normal people.

Darren Caveney: 00:50:36

Carrie-Ann Wade: So people can find you on LinkedIn too, if they want

Darren Caveney: 00:50:38

to give you a follow and have a conversation, but thank you so much.

Darren Caveney: 00:50:42

It's been an absolute pleasure having this conversation.

Darren Caveney: 00:50:45

I know.

Darren Caveney: 00:50:45

Thank you for the invite.

Darren Caveney: 00:50:46

It's always a treat having a chat.

Darren Caveney: 00:50:48

Carrie-Ann Wade: Brilliant.

Darren Caveney: 00:50:49

Thank you, Darren.

Darren Caveney: 00:50:51

Thank you for listening to this episode of Behind the Bob.

Darren Caveney: 00:50:54

I'd love for you to subscribe on your favorite podcast platform

Darren Caveney: 00:50:57

and leave a rating or a review.

Darren Caveney: 00:51:00

You can also engage with me over on the socials.

Darren Caveney: 00:51:02

I'm on Insta and X at @catspjs_uk of course you can find me over on LinkedIn.

Darren Caveney: 00:51:08

Hope to catch up with you soon.