In this episode of Mistress On the Mic, Mistress March and a professional behavior analyst (Countess Vee) discuss behavior modification through reinforcement and punishment, operant conditioning, clicker training, and other methods. The discussion specifically centers on how these principles can be applied in a BDSM context, emphasizing the importance of knowledge, ethics, consent and communication. The episode includes practical examples, common mistakes, and emphasizes the need to understand individual preferences and personal diversity. 

S1E8 - MotM - Vee P2

Mistress March: Hello, beautiful. I'm Mistress March and I appreciate you tuning in to Mistress On the Mic. I have my wonderful guest Vee back for part two.

So Vee, for anyone who missed us on part one, they should definitely go back and take a listen. We talked about neurodivergence and kink and a very broad spectrum of things there. What do you wanna tell people about yourself in case they're tuning in for the first time? Tell us a little bit about you

Countess Vee : if you are tuning in for the first time, I am kinkster first, and a board certified behavior analyst second, and behavior is my jam. I could talk forever about all things behavior because it's in everything that everybody does.

Mistress March: Absolutely. Well, that's exactly what we're about to do. We are gonna do it through specifically a very kinky lens talking about power imbalance, dominant submissive, master slave.

I know that's a charged word, but bear with us, right? All of these dynamics where someone intentionally chooses to give up their power to a partner and ask that partner to control them in those ways. There are certain terms in this episode that not everyone knows what they are. So one term that you'll hear us say a lot is the left side of the slash, the right side of the slash. If you look at D/s, which usually stands for dominance and submission, that's what we're talking about.

So the left side of the slash is the dominant side, and the right side of the slash is the submissive side. Enjoy the episode.

Countess Vee : I'm excited for it.

Mistress March: Yay. Gonna be great. So, let's get deeper into this.

Countess Vee : I am going to nerd out and tell you the technical terminology in my field, for reinforcement and punishment because the world is messed up and they don't understand it. And that's my job to share with you the most effective way to get things done.

So I want to reinforce that my submissive is bringing me my fresh cup of Diet Coke each. Each time my drink goes empty, boom. Magically there's another cup just waiting for me.

Mistress March: I have an incredible submissive who brings me my ADHD and heartburn medication on a silver tray in the morning.

Countess Vee : See that? And that we want to reinforce because we want that to keep happening. Pretty much any behavior you want to see occur either more frequently or just emerge or start to happen. You're gonna wanna reinforce those behaviors. 'cause without reinforcement it ain't going to happen.

Mistress March: Okay, so tell us more about reinforcement.

Countess Vee : So reinforcement, technical terminology is this, it is any stimulus change that will increase the future probability of this specific behavior happening in similar circumstances in the future.

Mistress March: Okay, so this could even apply to orgasm conditioning?

Countess Vee : Oh, absolutely.

Yes. Uh, pretty much anything that occurs within the body, you can reinforce to happen again under similar circumstances, and that's actually where operant conditioning can come into play.

Lara (Background) : Hmm.

Countess Vee : Now, there are two styles of reinforcement. You have positive reinforcement and negative reinforcement. And again, this is where society gets things messed up and think that negative reinforcement means, oh no, I'm punishing you.

And obviously this is bad because I yelled at you. Positive and negative has nothing to do with value. It has everything to do with a quantitative feature.

Mistress March: What does that mean?

Countess Vee : Positive reinforcement means I have added something into your environment that will increase the future probability of this behavior occurring.

So I have added a gold star 'cause I'm the queen of gold stars. I want all my gold stars. So you are giving me something, whether that is praise, whether that is a tangible item. Anything that I can have added to my environment that's positive reinforcement.

Mistress March: Okay.

Countess Vee : And then you have negative reinforcement, meaning I'm taking something away.

So, I hate doing dishes and so maybe I made such an amazing meal for my dominant that they were like, don't worry baby. I've got dishes.

They took away something I don't like and I'm like, I'm gonna make dinner again. That way I don't have to worry about doing the dishes.

Mistress March: So even though it was a positive thing, it is considered negative reinforcement because you are subtracting something that would've been there otherwise? Exactly.

Countess Vee : Well just remember positive and negative. It's math. Okay. I'm adding something or I'm taking something away. The outcome is still the same. I am going to see more of this behavior in the future. I have reinforced it, so now I will see more of it.

Countess Vee : Now, the flip side of that is punishment.

Punishment is when you've changed a stimulus so that this behavior is less likely to occur in future circumstances, in similar settings.

Mistress March: Okay?

Countess Vee : So again, positive, negative, I've added something. Typically it's something aversive. Something we don't like that is going to deter me from wanting to engage in this behavior again.

Mm. This is where like that corporal punishment concept comes into play. Being

Mistress March: spanked.

Countess Vee : I, I had an orgasm without asking permission or without getting that permission. So now I'm gonna get spanked. I'm less likely

Mistress March: Kneel on rice.

Countess Vee : Right, exactly. Something not wanted is presented.

Mistress March: Okay. Interesting. So that's then called positive reinforcement of punishment, or what would that be called?

Countess Vee : That's just positive punishment.

Mistress March: Positive punishment?

Countess Vee : Positive punishment, okay. Yeah.

Remember positive is just, I'm adding something, and then you have negative punishment, which is going to be taking away usually something that I really enjoy, which is something that my sir threatens me with all the time of, if you don't get this task done, I am changing the password on Netflix and I'm like, nah, don't do it.

Um, but we're taking away something we like to decrease that future occurrence of a behavior like off-task behavior.

So I was supposed to vacuum the house and I didn't, 'cause I got so wrapped up in watching True Blood, uh, they would be like, all right, well guess what? You can't watch True Blood until this task is done.

So I'm taking away your access to things so that you don't distract yourself anymore.

Mistress March: Hmm.

Countess Vee : Make sense.

Mistress March: Okay, so just to recap, uh, I think I'm keeping up, but you have positive punishment which means you are adding something, you're adding a bad thing. Some might even say a negative thing, but you are adding an aversive thing into the equation to discourage that behavior.

Or prevent that behavior. Then negative punishment means you're taking something away to discourage or prevent or whatever to keep that behavior from happening.

Countess Vee : Exactly. You got it.

Mistress March: And then the other one was reinforcement. Is that right? So the opposite of punishment in these terms is reinforcement.

You have positive reinforcement and negative reinforcement, both of which serve the purpose of encouraging a behavior.

I'm gonna try to keep this all in my brain - you're blowing my mind.

Countess Vee : This is why society as a whole gets these terms so mixed up because it's not clear cut.

We have very A type brains that came up with these concepts and they're like, let me make it the most convoluted way possible. It's fine. And society goes, I understand like you don't, but it's okay if you try. And then proceeds to constantly misuse the terms all the time.

Mistress March: Oops.

Countess Vee : And I'm sitting there going, it's fine.

I twitch.

Mistress March: Okay, well now that we've laid that all out, let's talk about some really fun, spicy examples.

Mistress March: What can we do with this knowledge about behavior?

Countess Vee : You can literally change any behavior. And this is where I'm gonna put that caveat out there of use these powers for good and not evil, please.

Mistress March: Mm-hmm.

Countess Vee : Because when you understand how to manipulate someone's behavior, you can literally manipulate anybody's behavior.

I don't know if you saw that, big Bang episode where Sheldon is modifying Penny's behavior.

Mistress March: Yeah.

Countess Vee : Yep. And he's giving her the chocolates. That is positive reinforcement, he is presenting chocolate. We've seen this on TikTok. Gen Z has picked up on it.

Mistress March: You give your boyfriend an m&m every time he does something good.

Countess Vee : Exactly. So here's the important step that we need to make sure we take before we do any kind of behavior modification. You have to get the consent of the other person. They have to agree to change their behavior. Period. You cannot do this to them without them knowing: that is unethical.

Please don't do it.

Mistress March: Absolutely.

Countess Vee : Once you get that consent and they're like, yeah, , my ADHD is a beast, and I will doom scroll on TikTok all day and not get the things done that I need to get done. And then I'll beat myself up and I'm a horrible person and I'll spiral, and now I'm a hot mess.

And now we can't play because I'm up in my head too much...right? So that's when the dominant can be like, yo, I have an idea.

Mistress March: Mm-hmm.

Countess Vee : What do you think about changing things up a little bit and helping you be successful in reaching your goals?

Mistress March: I think this is a really great point where it's always so important for us to always advocate for submissives to always still have a voice, and to practice using that voice. Just because you identify as a submissive or you "belong to" that dominant does not mean it's not okay to speak up and say, "Hey, I'm not comfortable with this."

Countess Vee : Absolutely.

Mistress March: There's a way to do it, you don't have to be disrespectful.

Some people have a hard time speaking up, but it's important that all parties involved encourage that communication right?

Countess Vee : I am so glad you brought that up. The fact that you are going to get a lot of "S-types". That don't feel like they have a right to speak up.

Mistress March: Yeah.

Countess Vee : Or that they should suffer silently because that's the hallmark of a great submissive.

I would love to challenge all of our dominant types or those left of the slash to challenge that and to encourage a change in that.

Countess Vee : So, a perfect example of what can you modify with this: I want you guys to tell your submissive. "I want you to tell me no at least once a day." And when they do, you are gonna praise them.

Yeah. You're gonna find out what works for them.

Mistress March: Ooh. Conditioning.

Countess Vee : So here's some foundation that you're gonna need.

Countess Vee : there are four foundational functions of behavior that I wanna make sure we all understand, so that you can actually affect behavior the way you want to.

So the acronym that I like to use is seat, SEAT.

So #1: S = Sensory.

It feels good to do it. It's also known as automatic reinforcement. It's something I can do to myself and I don't require anybody else acting upon me to get my reinforcement. So diddling the skittle = automatic reinforcement, right? It feels good for me to do this.

It's great. So that's your S

#2: E = escape or avoidance. I'm either experiencing something currently that I don't like or I know something I don't like is about to happen and I'm gonna engage in behavior to allow me to get away from it. So that's se.

#3: A = Attention.

A lot of us go for the attention. We are social creatures.

We want that recognition. We want that time, that attention. That's a big one.

And then your last one, t.

#4 T = tangibles.

So that physical item, that gold star, that, cookie, the new purse or new pair of shoes, those types of things.

So when you know what you're motivated most by: your partner or other people in your environment can manipulate your behavior by presenting the type of preferred reinforcement that you like.

Mistress March: Wow. I can see this being very powerful with children and adults.

Countess Vee : Ooh, it's, powerful with everybody. Trust me. When you understand your person, it's better. Some of the pitfalls are what we think should be reinforcers: like I work for gold stars and I work for that praise.

I'm like, oh my gosh, you did such a great job. I'm so proud of you.

Another person could be like, don't condescend me. Don't patronize me F you.

You're like, oh, that backfired. I thought I was reinforcing you, but I ended up punishing you by making these comments.

Mistress March: Yeah. Wow.

Countess Vee : So you've got to know your partner and the best way to do it is ask them.

What brings you joy? What makes you happy? Do you like words of affirmation? What makes you feel appreciated?

What makes you tick? So once you know how your partner reacts, and I'm just gonna use myself as the example 'cause it's easiest to use me.

I am an attention whore and I love my gold stars, right?

If I'm told you're a good girl, I'm like, okay, thanks. I keep doing this. It's great.

So if I were wanting to change my behavior to say no to my dominant and have that voice of "I'm going to advocate for myself" when before I was meek and mild and I could never ever tell my sir no...If they say yes, I just have to suffer through it whether I like it or not, because that's my dominant and they said I must do this thing.

Mistress March: That's a pretty big personality shift.

Countess Vee : Yeah. Right? So instead my dominant's gonna be like, no, your goal, because you've never said no to me...I'm gonna give you an attainable goal.

I want you to say no one time a day. And that can be for something as simple as hand me the remote. No, sir.

Now. I need to be reinforced for that because it's gonna feel so foreign to me, right?

And we'll be like, oh, they're gonna hate me and they're gonna wanna beat my butt, and they're gonna wanna disown me, and I'm not gonna be collared by you anymore.

Everything bad will happen. If I do this, thing's just gonna crash around me. So instead, immediately the dominant should be like: thank you for telling me no. I'm proud of you.

That works for me. I'd be like, okay, I can do that again, and then as I'm consistently saying no each day, that's when we're gonna start fading things and shaping things.

So my dominant wants me to be more assertive. They want me to be able to be like, no, I'm not a doormat. I'm gonna hold my line.

So now, instead of saying no once a day, it's say no twice a day. And then from twice a day it'll be say no four times a day. Then it'll go to tell me no for a type of play. And then they're gonna intentionally offer a style of play that I don't like. For me, it's anything stingy. If you do stingy things on me, I want to throw a punch, which is not great for a scene, right?

So that's when they would intentionally be like, oh, well I have this cane, or I have this crop, or I have this single tail. And that's the perfect opportunity for me to practice saying I'd rather not do that style of play please. And then immediately they go, you're right. And they toss it over their shoulder because my sir is a silly bitch.

And they're like, this one's fired, then we aren't gonna play with that. I'm like, okay, thanks. And I'm reinforced for saying no thank you.

Yeah, that's how that works.

Mistress March: Interesting. Okay. So can we think of maybe one really clear cut example, and a way for each of the four letters that you would reinforce for that behavior.

Countess Vee : Ooh, positions.

So if you wanna train your submissive to have the different protocol positions.

A lot of folks like to use the gorean positions, right?

Countess Vee : So the first step is training those positions specifically. So don't just throw them the book and be like, figure it out.

Model it for them, show them how to do it, and then you're gonna shape that behavior of getting into the right pose and all that jazz.

Once they do that, let's say you tell them, inspection, and they are required to get into that position within five seconds and stay there.

So you say inspection, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5.

They're in position.

#1: Let's say they are sensory seeking, you're gonna touch them. You're gonna rub your hands along their body and be like, this is beautiful positioning. Very good, very nice.

#2: Let's say it is escape or avoidance. Say they hate doing dishes.

You can be like, that was perfect. I'll wash the dishes tonight.

#3: If it is, attention. Praise, praise, praise. That's a beautiful position. I love how you got here right away. You make me so proud. Good boy, good nugget, good them, good girl. All those beautiful things.

#4: And then you've got your tangible, so let's say they really like that.

They want a new pair of shoes, right?

You might not be able to give them a new pair of shoes every time they get into position. But then you can use like a modified token economy where it's like, you did such a great job. Here's your little star. And once you get X number of stars. We go get that new pair of shoes for you or something like that.

Mistress March: Interesting. What would you recommend if they get it wrong, whether it's a position or something else, like if the behavior is not happening and so it's not a reward system... what do you do to course correct?

Countess Vee : So in everyday approach, please do not punish. All that does is damage the rapport of the relationship.

This is a teachable moment. We're gonna error correct at this point. So if the pose isn't quite right. You're gonna adjust them, you are gonna be like, okay, you were close. Bring the shoulders and the elbows out more, or spread the legs a little bit more. Plant the heel. You know, don't be up on tippy toe or maybe be up on tippy toe, whatever the position is asking for.

So you're gonna turn it into a teachable moment and then have them practice it.

I'm a big fan of positive practice, so if I got the pose wrong, I'm going to spend the next five, 10 minutes practicing the pose. I'm not gonna be holding it the entire time because that's physically exhausting and gonna be a punishment procedure, but instead it's gonna be okay.

Reset. Shake it out. Alright, let's try it again. Remember elbows out farther back behind the head. I want those fingers laced. And then they're gonna practice it and as soon as they do it the right way, you praise. Great job. That's perfect. Do it again. And then they do it again. Amazing. You did great. Or whatever their reinforcement style is.

And you have them practice it until the point where they're getting it correct multiple times in a row, that's when you can stop.

Where a lot of us fail is we go, "Well, I told you how to do it, so next time, two days from now, magically you're gonna remember this, right?"

No, very few people will magically remember it after getting just feedback. We have to physically practice the motion. So you wanna practice it several times the right way.

Mistress March: So you said in everyday life, don't punish.

Countess Vee : Don't punish.

Mistress March: But in domination sometimes there's punishment. Is that something that is taught one way and maybe it's actually harmful or is there room for that?

Countess Vee : It depends on the person. Some people want that fantasy. They love the idea of, oh, I didn't get it right so I'm gonna get three swats with the cane, and they thrive on that.

That's the discipline side of things that they're looking for, that is reinforcing for them.

Then use it, right? That is the positive reinforcement of adding the sensation of the cane whack.

That's keeping them going because they're seeking that. They want that. Cool. Use it to your advantage. If that's what reinforces them, absolutely use it.

But if you've got someone who's like, if you hit me, I will hit back. Not the best approach.

Mistress March: Or if you hit me, I will have a breakdown. If you criticize me, I will just shut down, internalize it, and beat myself up.

Countess Vee : Exactly. So know your partner. Some people absolutely, those hits are mother's milk to them. With others, it is very detrimental.

Mistress March: Yeah. I had... I hesitate to use the term submissive, A bottom..

This person was very much a bottom who was into extremely heavy, intense corporal punishment and discipline, and for him it was a way of... I don't even know if he wanted to change those behaviors, but being punished for certain behaviors that he had in life and being able to walk away from that session feeling forgiven. Like he could start fresh, and it was like his just reward for doing those things.

Mistress March: Um, but I think that's definitely not true of everyone. That's probably less common.

Countess Vee : I think he found his out.

Mistress March: Yeah.

Countess Vee : And it was that, and like, like you said, it probably didn't actually punish the behavior. It probably reinforced it. 'cause I'm sure he kept coming back, going and again,

Mistress March: actually, yeah, this is someone who, I got to a point that I refused to keep playing with him because those same disrespectful behaviors were constantly rampant.

Yeah. It never changed it. It was just an excuse for more bad behavior to have an excuse for punishment, to have an excuse for more bad behavior, and it was not a pretty cycle.

Countess Vee : So I love that you mentioned that. 'cause that's absolutely a brat moment of, oh, okay, I want this punishment, so I'm gonna act up, I'm gonna do these things and now I'm reinforced, not punished.

Right? Yeah.

Countess Vee : So when you recognize this in your partner, it's very important.

When you notice that your partner is intentionally seeking that punishment, and it may be not the most appropriate time for such things like you are seriously trying to encourage them to engage in good behaviors, the wanted behaviors, the skillset that they said they wanted to learn, and you're trying to help them achieve that goal for themselves.

Stop giving them the reinforcement.

Mistress March: Yeah

Countess Vee : Just like you did. You said, Nope, I'm not playing with you anymore. We're not doing this. You removed reinforcement and it was perfect. Perfect.

Mistress March: Stop giving someone a bloody ass if a bloody ass is what they want.

Countess Vee : Exactly.

Mistress March: Unless you want the cycle to continue.

Countess Vee : Right.

Exactly.

Countess Vee : We were actually at Sanctuary, LAX and Mistress Melissa was doing a scene, I think it was birthday spankings for a friend of ours, and, Mistress Melissa was wearing her master's cover and our friend, very much a brat, wanted all the big heavy stuff and was egging on all of the people that were doing the spankings.

And then Melissa showed up and our friend started egging Melissa on going, oh sir, I love your hat. And immediately Mistress Melissa was like, oh, you cheeky little bitch. I know exactly what you're doing.

Dropped the flogger and walked away.

The energy of this person that was on the bench getting the birthday spankings immediately changed.

He was like, no, wait, what just happened? That's not what I wanted.

And we're like, we know, but you were non consensually bratting with a person who is trying to do you a kind service of giving you birthday spankings.

So this was the natural consequence of that because Mistress Melissa recognized this is behavior I'm not going to reinforce.

Yeah, I know exactly what you want. So guess what? I'm not gonna do?

Mistress March: Yeah. I think that's a great example too, that once again both people have a voice and can say yes or no to continuing at any time.

Countess Vee : Absolutely. Right.

Mistress March: So let's go into another deep dive. You mentioned operant conditioning before: tell us more about that.

Countess Vee : Pavlov's dog. I'm sure everybody has heard of this, right?

Mistress March: There's a great kinky song about it. Have you heard it?

Countess Vee : I have not. I'm gonna need to hear this. Oh my gosh, yes, please. It's gonna make my heart so happy.

Uh, but operating conditioning, you've got a stimulus that elicits a response and they're paired so often.

That eventually the stimulus can change or the stimulus doesn't have to be present for that natural response to occur. Right.

This is what leads to some amazing people being able to come on command.

So your partner has paired your orgasms with the sound of your dog tags jingling or your keys jingling, or a specific phrase. A phrase like, "C*M" or a certain song,

exactly. So because that pairing happens so often.. The body now goes, I hear this. I'm gonna get the feels and it's going to happen. The body is amazing that way.

Some people, you can train them really quick. It only takes two or three sessions and their body is conditioned and ready to go.

Others you can try for months and their body's like, you're funny. No, not gonna do it.

But if you really want to, you just keep at it and you've gotta make sure that it's the same stimulus with the same outcome every time.

Mistress March: Do you have any tips for operant conditioning? Things to do, things to avoid?

Countess Vee : Have patience. have patience. , I know there are a lot of dominants that are like, I'm gonna train all my submissives to come on command. It's gonna be great. And then they start trying to train it and they're go, you're not doing it after like 30 minutes. It's like, well, yeah, that's not how that works.

Yeah, sorry. The human body is a very convoluted mechanism. And some people it takes 'em forever to finally get to that climax point. So maybe you're trying to train them when they're not at peak climax and others, their bodies are just ready to go for it. So have the patience and then set yourself up for success.

Make sure that the bodies are ready for what could be a marathon.

So make sure you're hydrated, make sure you take the breaks, make sure you're not in any kind of discomfort when you're trying to train these things.

Countess Vee : Or maybe you want discomfort, maybe you want a certain sound to elicit a oh no. And so a sound becomes your punishing tool versus having to actually like strike your submissive

Mistress March: like a clicker?

Countess Vee : Oh, oh, clicker training is great. Yes. A lot of people associate clicker training with pet training and doing tricks and stuff like that.

And it's an auditory sound. We use it all the time with people too. Like in sports that tho those air horns: the sound of the air horns will signal you're doing the right thing.

Move in this direction, go that direction, move here, move there. We do it for human beings and animals alike. So clicker training is fantastic and it works very much the same way. As soon as a behavior happens, click

As soon as a behavior happens, click.

It needs to be almost instantaneous.

It's boom, boom.

Because the only way reinforcement works is with the proximity to the behavior you are trying to affect.

If you had your orgasm, and five minutes later I go, oh, good job having an orgasm, and I go click, click, click, click, click. That means nothing. Your body is going to be like, no, I'm just relaxed. So you're clicking for relaxation at this point. Not for the orgasm because you waited too long in between,

Mistress March: You associated something else with it unintentionally. Interesting. What are some other types of things that you could apply operant conditioning to?

And orgasm is like a very clear, momentary experience. You know, it varies in length a little bit, but it's not a permanent state of being.

Can this relate to other things too?

Countess Vee : The nuance is a little bit more intricate, but you can encourage more pleasant affect or more pleasant mood.

If you've got somebody who's always pessimistic and just downtrodden and always beating themselves up verbally.

Mistress March: Hmm.

Countess Vee : The moment they say a positive thing about themselves, reinforcement.

Mistress March: Interesting.

Countess Vee : Or anytime you see them smiling, click.

Mistress March: So what about the clicker creates reinforcement? Because it's not inherently a reward, is it?

Countess Vee : No, it is not inherently a reward. It is inherently neutral. So it's what we put with it.

Just a clicker by itself means nothing. You've gotta charge the clicker first, so you have to pair the clicker with a reinforcer for that person.

So if it's praise, it's good job. You're doing great.

I love how you did that. Keep it up. This makes my heart so happy. Yes, you are the best, and you're clicking every time you're providing that reinforcement.

That way, eventually you've got a stimulus control transfer.

So currently the most effective stimulus is my praise, but because I pair it so often with the clicker, now the clicker has the same value as my praise.

So I can remove my voice and just use the clicker.

Mistress March: So you're kind of conditioning the clicker to have a positive association at the same moment that you're giving positive attention or a reward at the same moment that your desired behavior is taking place. Yeah?

Countess Vee : Exactly.

Mistress March: Interesting.

Countess Vee : And then you're slowly fading one out for the presence of the other.

If I were to just go clicker with my voice, clicker with my voice, clicker with my voice, and then just clicker, that clicker itself is only gonna be effective for like maybe two or three clicks.

I have to gradually fade myself out and keep using the clicker.

So maybe every second time that I click, I'm providing words, then every third time, then every fifth time, then every 10th time I'm providing words.

That way I'm keeping it charged for longer periods of time. This is a reinforcement fading schedule basically.

This allows me to really solidify the fact that this has the same effect as my voice.

One of the best ways that I can use to describe it is, penny slots.

You show up, you put your money in, you hit that bet button, and the first couple hits, Ooh, I got a payout. Fantastic. Now I hit it again.

Hit it again. No payout, but past behavior says the second hit, I should have had a payout. Well, let's try it. 1, 2, 3 more times.

Oh, there's my payout. Fantastic.

So now I'm gonna hit it again and again. Again, well, the other one took four or five times, so I'm gonna keep hitting. Oh look, that one did seven times.

I finally got my payout.

So that's what makes gambling so addictive is that you can't anticipate when the reinforcement is actually going to come or how frequent, but it's strong enough of a reinforcer that you're gonna keep trying for it.

Mistress March: I think it then also feels like it's inevitable. It's gonna, eventually come. It's gonna happen.It has to be there somewhere.

Countess Vee : Yeah.

Mistress March: We talked about some pitfalls with that...

Mistress March: If the stimulus is not simultaneous, if there's too much of a delay, are there any other common mistakes or misconceptions that break down these positive reinforcements that you might wanna be putting in place?

Countess Vee : You can unintentionally punish when you think you're reinforcing, like we mentioned before, where I could have thought that maybe saying "That's a good little slut." Was reinforcing and you're like, no. Bad word. Don't ever call me a slut.

Or maybe it's the opposite. Maybe they want to be called a slut and all you're ever saying is good girl.

And they're like, I'm frustrated now 'cause you're not saying what I want. So always check in, see what reinforces them in that moment. And reinforcers can change.

Mistress March: Yeah

Countess Vee : So just because yesterday I was all about the gold stars...maybe today I'm just pissed off at the world.

Things went on in my day-to-day life work was hell, and I don't want to hear anybody's voice.

But I want you touching me. I want to escape words and go to physical touch. That's gonna be my new reinforcer for this day.

Mistress March: Hmm. Interesting.

Mistress March: So to the people who subscribe to the school of thought, where there are people who are much more harsh with their dominance. It's more based on punishment, it's more based on criticism.

It's based on expecting someone to instantly get it right or never mess up.

And there can be something very authoritarian and very commanding in that presence. What would you say about that?

Countess Vee : I would say that I'm sure there's someone out there for you, who is looking for that experience.

But that is also something that is very hard to maintain long term. It's not usually sustainable.

Mistress March: Hmm.

Countess Vee : It's emotionally draining from the dominant side, always having to be that rough, tough, authoritarian. Sometimes you just want a chance to breathe. You just wanna be gentle. You want to be able to praise and relax.

Then same thing for the submissive.

At first it's hot, it's sexy.

I'm getting all this corporal punishment that I read about, and then, oh, it's getting my blood boiling.

But if it happens every single time you meet this person and all you're getting is punishment, punishment, punishment, punishment, where's the reinforcement?

Where's the offset? And now it's gonna be, I dread going to this person, because nothing is ever good enough. I'm never doing anything right, They expect perfection and clearly I am an imperfect being and I can never meet their expectations.

You gotta give them the little kernels here and there.

It can't be all corporal punishment.

You can absolutely include it, especially if that's something that reinforces them, but drop in those: "You did great." and "That's exactly what I was looking for. You're so good." Along with the, "No, that wasn't good enough. Try again."

Mistress March: I think there's also a big difference between some play or a session that lasts maybe for an hour: it's an escape from reality

versus a relationship that's constant and ongoing, because that can be something that has more place in fantasy than it does in longevity and pervasiveness throughout day after day after day.

And I think that can be different too, right? Depending on how compartmentalized you have things.

Countess Vee : Yeah, it's, very easy to maintain that I am the strict authoritarian, I am the headmistress, I am the teacher, I'm the nun who is punishing you for bad behavior. If it's a one to three hour scene.

Lara (Background) : Yeah.

Countess Vee : I can maintain that. No problem. And I know you're reinforced because you're continuing to go.

You're continuing to mouth off, you're continuing to just slightly do things just so wrong to get more punishment. Right?

So I know this is reinforcing... Versus that 24/7 dynamic where, no, you're not good enough. I'm gonna give you 10 lashings later. No, no, no. Not good. Horrible.

Not what I wanted. How could you be so bad and now you're just beating this person down?

Mistress March: All constant degradation all the time.

Yeah.

Countess Vee : Like some people love the degradation.

Mistress March: Yeah. Why? Why?

Mistress March: Let's talk about why. Just real quick before we wrap up. There's so many, I know there's so many thoughts on that needs to be a whole separate episode.

It does. But why? Why do we love that delicious beating down as well?

Countess Vee : From what I understand, because I am not this person, from what I understand, from people who say that they just live for it. It's that chance to revel in the bad.

To be like, yes, you're right. I am a lowly worm. Oh my gosh, I don't have to be ashamed of this.

You're recognizing this for what it is, and I'm able to just be in it.

They're kinda like taking the power back, you know?

They grew up and it was, you're a horrible child. You are worthless, you're this, you're that. And now they're finding their power in those same labels within this very controlled, contrived setting where they are still in control of how and when this is happening, whether they're on the bottom or the top side.

They got to dictate how this would go through their negotiation. So there's a safety in it.

Mistress March: Hmm.

Countess Vee : And they're able to take back that power.

Mistress March: Interesting. Yeah. I think there's also something more tangible in the thing that you're afraid of, that you might have anxiety, you're worried someone thinks this about you, or everyone's talking behind your back.

Or what if this happened...and making it real.

Countess Vee : Yeah. You get to confront it. It's not that "what if" anymore. It, becomes that thing in your face and you're like, oh, that wasn't so bad.

I actually kind of liked it.

Mistress March: It was kind of sexy in that context.

Countess Vee : It was kind of awesome when she was like looking down at me and me like, you bitch.

I'm like, okay, I'm a bitch. It's fine.

Mistress March: I like to think and I hope that then bleeds over into the anxious times too, where there's at least a positive voice in the conversation saying, yeah. Oh, I remember that time that happened. It was really hot.

Countess Vee : Right, exactly.

Mistress March: Well, gosh, this has been absolutely wonderful.

Thank you so much for joining me Vee, Is there anything else that you wanna add or touch on before we wrap up for this segment?

Uh, just remember that you're all human beings. The person on the right side of the slash or the left side of the slash is human. They're gonna have their own desires, their own wants and needs, their own struggles and their own successes.

Celebrate that. Every single part of it.

Don't look for perfection, look for progress, and keep that as your focus.

Excellent words, words to live by. Thank you again so much and I look forward to all of the more conversations that we'll have together in the future. And same. Thank you for being here to share this one with all the listeners out there.

Countess Vee : Thank you.

Mistress March: We've really only scratched the surface, So subscribe and listen to Mistress on the Mic, on Spotify, apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast fix.

And join me next time when I welcome another exciting guest, who's a sex toy educator at a boutique in the heart of Salt Lake City and soon to be married. I actually had the great pleasure of doing a couple's dungeon session and consultation for her and her partner, and in a few days I'll be presenting some very fun things at her bachelorette party.

In the meantime, if you'd like to contact me. Search Mistress March like the month, or RadioactiveMarch on Instagram, Fetlife, or Google. or send an email to hello@MistressOnTheMic.com. Till next time, darling. Stay freaky.