ANNA KENT: 00:00:00

What has really helped me is if there is any discussion

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: 00:00:03

about baby loss, I love it.

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: 00:00:05

" Really simply, if people just

say, "oh, what was their name?"

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: 00:00:08

It's so simple, but it acknowledges

that they were a person and it

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: 00:00:12

acknowledges that you're a mum.

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: 00:00:14

So I personally like that.

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Or sometimes people have said things like,

" this is a space you can talk about it if

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you'd like to, but also if you don't."

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: 00:00:22

I think it's just really understanding

that, especially the time after baby loss,

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I found it really lonely and in that space

of loneliness and grieving, you can play

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really horrible mind tricks on yourself.

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I'm a talker and I think there's a big

power in being open, and I feel by voicing

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my dark corners, I disempower them.

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: 00:00:46

And also I maintain the power in

it by choosing to talk about it.

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: 00:00:54

Having a baby is meant to be the

most joyful time of your life.

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: 00:00:58

But for many mums, and dads,

it can be the hardest, and at

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times the darkest of places.

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: 00:01:04

Welcome to Season 3 of Blue

MumDays, the podcast for anyone

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: 00:01:08

struggling with parenting.

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: 00:01:11

You need to know that you are not alone.

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: 00:01:14

And these awful feelings

will not be with you forever.

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: 00:01:18

Just one word - all the stories

shared here are from the heart.

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: 00:01:22

These are real conversations

and may be triggering, so

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: 00:01:25

please listen with discretion.

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: 00:01:28

Your wellbeing is so important, so if you

need to take a breather or stop listening,

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: 00:01:33

please know that you can at any point.

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: 00:01:36

Today's episode covers

miscarriage, baby loss and suicide.

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This episode was recorded

during the summer of: 2022

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VIKKI: Today's guest is Anna Kent.

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Anna is a humanitarian aid worker, N.H.S.

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(National Health Service)

Nurse and Midwife.

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After receiving a nursing master's

degree from the University of

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Nottingham, she completed a diploma

in tropical nursing in London and

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joined Medecins Sans Frontieres,

Doctors Without Borders, in: 2007

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Delivering babies in war zones, Anna has

cared for the most vulnerable women in

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the most vulnerable places in the world.

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At 26 years old, not yet a fully

trained midwife, she delivered

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a baby in a tropical storm by

the light of her head torch.

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The following year, she would be

responsible for the female health of

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30,000 Rohingya refugees in Bangladesh.

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But returning to the UK to work for

the NHS, she soon learned that even

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at home, the right to a safe birth

was impossible to take for granted.

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In her recent memoir, 'Frontline

Midwife', Anna shares her extraordinary

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experiences as a nurse, midwife and

mother, illuminating the lives of

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: 00:02:47

women who are irreparably affected

by compromised access to healthcare.

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I speak to Anna today, both

as expert midwife, but also as

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a mum with lived experience.

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: 00:02:58

Tragically, at just six months

pregnant, Anna had to give birth

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to her first daughter, Fatima.

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Fatima very sadly died soon after due

to the rarest of brain conditions.

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Happily, Anna's second daughter, Aisha

was born without incident in: 2016

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Welcome to the second episode of

my chat with the amazing Anna Kent

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midwife and also mother of two.

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: 00:03:25

If you listen to the first episode,

you'll learn about Anna's experiences

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in South Sudan, Haiti, and Bangladesh

as a member of Medecins Sans Frontier,

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and working as a frontline midwife.

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But now we're going to talk about your

own personal experience of motherhood.

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So just as a trigger warning to anybody

that's listening to this, please note

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that we are going to be talking about

miscarriage, but also baby loss.

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: 00:03:54

And please listen with discretion,

because we absolutely don't want to

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trigger anybody by sharing this with you.

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: 00:04:03

But I will also put notes to charities

and support available in the show notes.

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So thank you for rejoining me, Anna.

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So your experience of motherhood

came from a surprising angle because

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you fell pregnant really sort of

unexpectedly, but very happily.

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: 00:04:22

Can you tell us about how you felt when

you first discovered you were pregnant?

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ANNA KENT: Yeah.

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So I'd decided to retire

from frontline aid work.

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I didn't feel it was sustainable and

some amazing people that work for

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MSF have families and homes and do

overseas projects, but I always felt,

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: 00:04:38

for me, I didn't have that capacity.

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I felt I had the choice

of one or the other.

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And then I always - I used to hate

like that sense of a ticking clock.

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I'd find it really like

minimalising my experience.

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But truthfully, I'd got

to about 34, 35 then.

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And I probably did have a sense

of "Yeah, I'd like to be a mum".

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I did have this sense of yearning

that I had no control over whatsoever.

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Like partly it was probably in some form

of battle with my feminist self as well.

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This sense of like needing to reproduce.

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But as I say, we don't always

have control over these things.

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And I'd gone to Bangladesh to help train

first cohort of midwives in: 2015

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Bangladesh had, for the first

time, recognised midwives as

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a career path in its own right.

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And I'd gone for, it was

quite a short placement.

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you know what, I didn't get to explore

Bangladesh last time I was here because

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we were so focused in the refugee

camp, which, you know, was only an

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hour away from the town where I was.

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But in some ways it felt

like 20 planets away.

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And took surf lessons.

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Yeah, my surfing instructor was very

handsome and very kind and really

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interesting and a romance grew.

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I can remember on one of the days he'd

surfed and then he'd come up and flicked

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his lovely shiny hair and then literally

a shoal of flying fish had like scattered!

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VIKKI: (Laughs) Was he

moving in slow motion?

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ANNA KENT: Yeah, that's it!

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Um, yeah, we fell in love.

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And then again, I do speak very

openly because are taboos around

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pregnancies and unexpected pregnancies.

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I guess the important point to make

with all that we're going to talk

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about, I don't expect anybody else to

feel like I felt, and pregnancy and

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birth is so different for everybody.

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So I've talked generally about

midwifery stuff in your previous

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episode, but going forward I can only

speak from my own lived experience

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with absolutely the acknowledgement

that this isn't how everybody feels.

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Yeah, we had a condom accident is the

truth of it, as some people do.

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And yeah four weeks later, like

my nipples had started to tingle.

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And I just thought, I think - and I don't

think I put this in the book either - I

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think I'd sent a text to one of my

friends saying "I've either got an STI

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or I'm pregnant, one or the other because

something is definitely different!"

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And did a pregnancy test and

I was thrilled to be pregnant.

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So although I had known the

father of all my children I think

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probably about eight weeks by

this point, which wasn't the plan.

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But also I was so happy to be pregnant,

actually getting married really quickly.

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And this, complications of visa

and everything else, it all paled

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into insignificance because I

was thrilled to be pregnant.

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I'd never been pregnant before.

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And it just, yeah, felt brilliant.

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So we arranged to get

married very quickly.

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And unfortunately just before my wedding

day, I miscarried spontaneously.

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: 00:07:33

I was probably about seven or

eight weeks pregnant at that point.

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Ended up accessing some healthcare

because I'd bled quite heavily.

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And I felt quite scared because I was

far away from the hospitals where

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I was used to working back in the

UK where I've worked in the N.H.S.

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(National Health Service).

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: 00:07:48

So I felt quite vulnerable and I

did like catch myself at one point.

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I didn't have access to maternity

care for probably about 24

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hours and I felt really scared.

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And so imagine like just this sense again

for the women that we're representing,

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that don't have any access to

maternity care, what that experience...

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you know, it's unimaginable.

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Yeah, I miscarried and again I'll be

honest, as a medical professional that

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had worked with women experiencing

miscarriage for a number of years, I

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: 00:08:14

will absolutely put my hands up and

say I had completely underestimated it.

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Recognising that not

everybody feels it this way.

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But I was floored, absolutely floored.

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Like I felt like my heart had been

wrenched out because you know, that two

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lines on a pregnancy test, suddenly my

life was going off in a new direction

138

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and I was thrilled to be pregnant.

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And I had this, I know it's, it was very

early on in pregnancy, but it was a baby.

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My experience with it

was this was my baby.

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Basically where we were staying

in Bangladesh was a drop

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latrine, like a squat latrine.

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And the fact that this,

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sorry, just catch my thought just

for a moment, but this like little

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one that was just so wanted could

drop down there without any...

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like, there was nothing

I could do about it.

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That's what felt so ridiculous.

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But, you know, I know I want to be

pregnant, so, you know, we carried

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on with the wedding and all my family

have flown over and this is a big

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part of me that's quite proud and

"I'm not going to cancel now" and etc.

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etc..

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So, got married after knowing him for 12

weeks, which looking back now, I don't

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know, we can't change anything, can we?

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So we can only accept our choices

and try and understand them.

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And then I had one period

and then I was pregnant again.

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And again, I was thrilled to be pregnant.

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And then, you know, the 12 week scan

was quite daunting because I hadn't

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made it to a 12 week scan before.

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12 week scan was perfect and I was like,

"okay, I'm gonna let myself relax".

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I was a midwife working

in the NHS at that point.

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And it was quite tough because

you'd be with threat and losses.

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And, like, I wanted my new

mindfulness to help me carry through.

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So I was like breathing and trying,

even though the world was a bit

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chaotic around and my husband

had joined me from overseas.

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We were living on a canal boat

as well, which was fabulous for

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mindfulness, because we're just

surrounded by beautiful sparkly water...

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not when it rains, but on

like the blue sky days.

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And then it was an absolute shock,

regardless of all the things I'd seen and

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all the risks I'd looked for in another

one, like really, like really bonkers

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risks, you know, I had on my radar about,

you know, "well what if you've got T.B.

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(tuberculosis) without symptoms, but

then you've got TB in the spine?"

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Like, I really had a wide range of trying

to manage, like, the balance between

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anxiety and what's actually a real fear.

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And this quite new

relationship and things.

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And then at the the routine 20 week

scan, this sonographer basically

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identified that the little one - I

didn't know what they were at that

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point - had a problem with their brain,

but they didn't know anything else.

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And this was a Thursday

or a Friday I think.

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So basically we were discharged home

and I didn't know anything else.

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So then over the weekend, like just

the thought we were gonna be seen the

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Monday or Tuesday the next week by

a foetal care specialist consultant.

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Like that night, just like my walls

were caving in on me, I just thought,

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"I don't know, you know, it's things

with the brain, it's never good."

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Right?

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And I kind of felt guilty because

I, you know, I should know what....

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I was told there was no

ventricles in the brain.

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I'd never heard of that before.

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Like, going through these like real

big crushing waves of not knowing.

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So I phoned up the maternity department,

the next day and I said "please, just

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somebody speak to me today because I

don't know if my baby's alive or dead".

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And I saw a Foetal Care Medicine

Consultant that day and she

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was so kind, just so brilliant.

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She held the space, she used

language we could both understand,

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because my now ex-husband's

first language wasn't English.

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I had MRI scans and had other scans.

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And then we met with a neurosurgeon and

then we met with another consultant.

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But yeah, basically we were

told in no uncertain terms.

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So my

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daughter had developed a cerebral

teratoma, which is a form of brain tumor.

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So it had grown between the 12

week scan and the 20 week scan.

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We were now at 21 weeks.

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It had taken up a third of her head

space, so the brain hadn't actually

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grown at all, but there's also a cyst

around it that had tracked down her neck.

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And she hadn't been able to

grow any form of proper airway.

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Then we had more scans and more tests.

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: 00:12:15

And then because babies when

they're on the inside constantly

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drink and excrete the amniotic

fluid, she wasn't able to do that.

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: 00:12:22

So basically I then had polyhydramnios,

so an excess of fluid and her head

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was growing in an obscure way.

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And so it got to a point where I

didn't know whether or not a vaginal

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: 00:12:35

birth would be possible at all.

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: 00:12:38

Basically, every time I met with

somebody the story got worse.

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: 00:12:41

And the bottom line was there was no

chance of her survival at all, it doesn't

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: 00:12:44

matter how many specialists I saw.

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: 00:12:47

, I've looked back on this time and

one of the things that I've had to

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: 00:12:49

really work with, with my guilt, is

that I never prayed for a miracle.

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: 00:12:55

Which, out of all the things that's

...because I think I just like, I

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: 00:13:00

believe in the medical model, sorry.

219

: 00:13:02

I believe in the medical model.

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: 00:13:03

And I think one of the things I

regretted after was not widening

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: 00:13:07

my point of view to be spiritual.

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: 00:13:09

To ask for some greater God to

swoop in and magic things better.

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: 00:13:14

Which I know isn't rational,

I am aware of that.

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: 00:13:16

But when we talked before in the previous

show about, the guilt we carry, like

225

: 00:13:21

that's what I recognise out of everything.

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: 00:13:22

That's what I feel most guilty about.

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: 00:13:24

Which is quite obscure I think.

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: 00:13:26

And it didn't hit me till probably

about a year after she was born.

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: 00:13:30

I didn't even think of it.

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: 00:13:31

I didn't even think of praying for

a miracle, which I don't think...

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: 00:13:35

like if I was my brilliant therapist

and you were sitting there, she would

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: 00:13:38

probably sort of say, you know, "do

you think that could have helped?"

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: 00:13:42

And I know, I know it wouldn't have, but

it's just one of those things that just...

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: 00:13:46

That's the thing about baby loss.

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: 00:13:48

I found that like it hasn't played out in

the way that maybe I'd have expected it.

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: 00:13:51

It's really random things that just

suddenly shoot out of nowhere and

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: 00:13:54

hit you in the heart and suddenly

you're on the floor like sobbing,

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in somebody else's kitchen.

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: 00:14:00

I didn't know that's how

it could be experienced.

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: 00:14:03

Yeah so basically, through long

conversations at six months, it

241

: 00:14:08

was decided - I decided, I chose,

I was given the choice of - I

242

: 00:14:13

mean, it's not a choice, is it?

243

: 00:14:13

What bloody choice did I have?!

244

: 00:14:15

But it was my choice to induce the

labour at six months knowing she would

245

: 00:14:20

die, but knowing she would always die.

246

: 00:14:21

But I did it to preserve my health.

247

: 00:14:25

And I found that when I - because

I was very obviously pregnant by

248

: 00:14:28

that point as well - so every time

somebody like, you know, walking along,

249

: 00:14:32

somebody says, "oh, when are you due?"

250

: 00:14:34

Like every single time

it killed me a bit more.

251

: 00:14:37

And so it was for also my spiritual

wellness, I felt, because some

252

: 00:14:40

people do carry on their pregnancies.

253

: 00:14:42

Because they don't want to

make that choice, which is

254

: 00:14:44

absolutely their decision.

255

: 00:14:45

And I fully respect, you know, this

is a shit journey to take, you know.

256

: 00:14:49

Whatever choices people have to

make to be okay with in the end.

257

: 00:14:53

If we can be then yeah, absolutely

you get my full support.

258

: 00:14:56

I felt for me that an induction at

six months, so this is an abortion.

259

: 00:15:01

This is what we're talking about.

260

: 00:15:03

We briefly spoke before about abortion.

261

: 00:15:05

So it's so important we cover it,

especially in the Roe versus Wade era.

262

: 00:15:10

And that, you know, the fundamental

right and it doesn't, my opinion is

263

: 00:15:15

that people don't even have to justify,

you know, "it was to save my life.

264

: 00:15:17

This abortion was to save my life."

265

: 00:15:19

Whatever the reason a woman

wants an abortion, choose an

266

: 00:15:22

abortion, she doesn't even want it.

267

: 00:15:23

Right?

268

: 00:15:23

Whatever reason she feels she has

to do it, then I fully respect and

269

: 00:15:27

support her in that, just to be clear.

270

: 00:15:30

So I have experienced an abortion.

271

: 00:15:35

My circumstance was, as it describes,

yeah, I went into hospital.

272

: 00:15:39

My ex-husband didn't feel that he

wanted to come in and he didn't want

273

: 00:15:43

to meet our child, which again, that

is his choice to make and he has

274

: 00:15:48

to live with that as much as all of

us have to live with our choices.

275

: 00:15:51

So I definitely don't want any

negative from anybody listening,

276

: 00:15:54

because you've got a series of bad

choices when you're losing your child.

277

: 00:15:58

One of the things I found really hard

was walking onto the Labour Suite.

278

: 00:16:01

Because at that point - Zephyr's, which

is Nottingham, has been a brilliant thing.

279

: 00:16:06

It's a charity that has tried to

protect safe space away from a Maternity

280

: 00:16:10

Unit for people losing their baby to

safely deliver - at the time, so this

281

: 00:16:15

was in 2015, so the only safe place

for me to deliver was on Labour Suite,

282

: 00:16:20

because that's where the midwives are.

283

: 00:16:21

And it was...

284

: 00:16:23

it was cruel.

285

: 00:16:24

It was cruel to make me walk past

other rooms, birthing rooms where

286

: 00:16:28

I worked, to hear, you know, those

last shouts of labour and then

287

: 00:16:32

the baby's there and it cries.

288

: 00:16:33

And you've got all the beautiful murals

of all the beautiful babies on the walls.

289

: 00:16:37

Like it was cruel to make me

birth there, if I'm honest.

290

: 00:16:41

Because I knew I'd never

walk out with my baby.

291

: 00:16:44

Then for all the families like

walking towards me - because I was

292

: 00:16:46

gray and I was shaky and I, you know,

looked like a mum losing her baby.

293

: 00:16:53

For all the couples walking out, I

was literally like doing this because I

294

: 00:16:56

don't want to poison their bloody day!

295

: 00:16:58

They have every right to be

celebrating the birth of their baby.

296

: 00:17:02

They don't want, they

shouldn't see me either.

297

: 00:17:05

Like, yes, we can make a space

where we can share space and have

298

: 00:17:10

a protected way of reconnecting

again, but not on a Labour Suite.

299

: 00:17:14

It's not okay.

300

: 00:17:16

But that was where the midwives were.

301

: 00:17:17

And its, you know, what I worked out

after delivery, that the amazing NHS...

302

: 00:17:22

we absolutely all have to fight for,

to keep free at the point of access.

303

: 00:17:26

We need it to be better.

304

: 00:17:28

We need to stop getting

maternity scandals.

305

: 00:17:30

But our NHS...

306

: 00:17:31

there were at least six ways

my life was saved through the

307

: 00:17:34

birth of my daughter Fatima.

308

: 00:17:38

So I was induced, because we knew

there was a medical emergency

309

: 00:17:42

we'd picked up on scans.

310

: 00:17:44

It took me three days to labour fully.

311

: 00:17:47

And had all the array of

safe pain relief volunteered.

312

: 00:17:51

For me personally I felt if this

is my only time to meet her, I

313

: 00:17:55

want to feel every second of it.

314

: 00:17:57

What other people choose, absolutely

again, let's put it out there.

315

: 00:18:00

Whatever you need to get

through it, just do it.

316

: 00:18:02

And I think I needed, I think

I probably needed in some way

317

: 00:18:05

to feel the sense of atonement.

318

: 00:18:07

Because I couldn't offer an epidural

for women birthing with me even

319

: 00:18:11

if they were losing their babies.

320

: 00:18:12

You know, in war zones it wasn't safe.

321

: 00:18:16

So I think part of me needed to commune,

I don't know, is that even the right word?

322

: 00:18:21

To atone for what I couldn't do before.

323

: 00:18:24

Like, it's all linked, isn't it?

324

: 00:18:26

We're all linked, we're all humans

that are experiencing dramas.

325

: 00:18:29

Our worlds, you know, our experiences are

different, but we're still all connected.

326

: 00:18:35

And after Fatima was born, she

was born alive, and I love

327

: 00:18:39

talking about it because she

was, you know, she was my baby.

328

: 00:18:42

I think I was worried that I'd find

her repulsive, that's the word.

329

: 00:18:49

I hate that that was my fear.

330

: 00:18:53

But she was so beautiful.

331

: 00:18:54

Like, she was the most beautiful

thing I'd ever seen in my entire life.

332

: 00:18:58

And she was alive and she was alive

with me for probably about half an hour.

333

: 00:19:01

And a lot of people think "oh God,

that must have been horrible".

334

: 00:19:02

But it was just the best, one of

the best things in my life to date.

335

: 00:19:07

And I got to hold her and

I knew she didn't suffer.

336

: 00:19:10

So I, one of the things that helps me

is to think that as parents we suffer

337

: 00:19:14

so our kids don't have to hopefully.

338

: 00:19:16

So I, I could give her that.

339

: 00:19:20

Yeah.

340

: 00:19:20

And then after she died, my midwife Helen

was so brilliant and my placenta didn't...

341

: 00:19:28

birth.

342

: 00:19:29

And I'm very aware of from overseas

work of the risk of a retained

343

: 00:19:32

placenta, of having a heavy bleed.

344

: 00:19:35

So I had a manual removal of

placenta in the room and then

345

: 00:19:38

I had antibiotics afterwards.

346

: 00:19:39

But then a week later I then started

to pass some clots with placenta in,

347

: 00:19:45

into my sanitary towel after a week.

348

: 00:19:47

So I then went back into hospital,

had a general aesthetic and

349

: 00:19:51

had the rest removed and

then antibiotic cover as well.

350

: 00:19:53

So yeah, I don't know if I've even

said them all, but there's many

351

: 00:19:56

ways that if I was a woman in South

Sudan, Fatima would've killed me.

352

: 00:20:01

The birth of Fatima, the pregnancy

would've, the birth would,

353

: 00:20:04

the postnatal time would've.

354

: 00:20:06

So I can hold my grief.

355

: 00:20:09

You know, my arms ache for her, you know,

my boobs were like squirting with milk

356

: 00:20:13

and like part of me - because I've always

been quite flat and then like "boing!".

357

: 00:20:19

Like part of me was like, "thanks

girls for rallying for the cause."

358

: 00:20:22

I was like "you can step down."

359

: 00:20:23

But I kind of felt, I don't know, they

kind of felt, this is weird saying out

360

: 00:20:27

loud, but it kind of felt like my allies.

361

: 00:20:31

One of my other regrets is as well,

I didn't explore donating breast

362

: 00:20:35

milk, but I didn't think of it.

363

: 00:20:36

And I hope maybe the universe

could forgive me for that.

364

: 00:20:40

I mean, I might have even been

offered it, but there's a lot of

365

: 00:20:41

that time that's just this fog.

366

: 00:20:43

I don't remember everything.

367

: 00:20:45

I remember my midwife Helen.

368

: 00:20:47

She was brilliant, she

saved my life, and yes.

369

: 00:20:50

And my close girlfriend, Anita

also, she was with me through it.

370

: 00:20:55

And so I didn't have to do it alone.

371

: 00:20:57

And it kind of helped me again with

the trauma from the overseas work,

372

: 00:21:01

I often felt like "bearing witness?

373

: 00:21:03

That's not enough.

374

: 00:21:04

I need to be saving everybody's life!

375

: 00:21:07

Like 'Temoignage', this "to speak out

and bear witness", it's not enough.

376

: 00:21:10

People need more.

377

: 00:21:11

And absolutely they do, but it's like

with my midwife, Helen and with Anita,

378

: 00:21:17

they also couldn't save the life of

my baby, but they did bear witness

379

: 00:21:21

with me and they didn't turn away.

380

: 00:21:23

And to not be alone in that space

and to know that I would survive, I

381

: 00:21:28

will forever be grateful to that and

grateful to the NHS for saving me.

382

: 00:21:35

Yeah, but it doesn't take

away how horrid it is.

383

: 00:21:38

So Fatima would now be nearly seven.

384

: 00:21:42

And I go through waves with baby loss.

385

: 00:21:45

I think about her all the time.

386

: 00:21:47

I speak to her.

387

: 00:21:48

I speak about her with my

daughter Aisha as well.

388

: 00:21:51

Not all the time because I didn't want

Aisha to live in like the shadow of

389

: 00:21:55

somebody that she can't compete with.

390

: 00:21:56

Because I don't think that's

kind and I don't think it's fair.

391

: 00:22:00

You know, because she's a kid and

she has no say in this world, right?

392

: 00:22:03

But I also didn't want it to be one

day an announcement out the blue.

393

: 00:22:08

We've got a memory box and occasionally

she'll ask to sit with me and

394

: 00:22:11

go through Fatima's memory box.

395

: 00:22:13

So she's aware of it, but it's, yeah.

396

: 00:22:16

So she's at a stage at five,

she often asks about death.

397

: 00:22:20

Because I think sometimes we pitch death

as being more "when very old and when it's

398

: 00:22:23

the right thing, then you go to heaven

or you go or you die" or what, however.

399

: 00:22:27

But the thing about the death of a

baby is it doesn't fit any of those

400

: 00:22:31

narratives because it's not right.

401

: 00:22:34

You know, it isn't right.

402

: 00:22:35

It's cruel.

403

: 00:22:36

It's all about the balance,

isn't it with everything?

404

: 00:22:38

It's about the balance.

405

: 00:22:39

I try and help maintain

the balance for Aisha.

406

: 00:22:44

But after, with Fatima, again, it's,

it's not right or wrong, is it?

407

: 00:22:50

This is the thing that we're

saying, but I had an absolutely

408

: 00:22:53

animalistic need to be pregnant again.

409

: 00:22:55

Like to my core, like literally my arms

ached for the baby I wasn't holding.

410

: 00:23:00

I had sex again very quickly.

411

: 00:23:03

It's not recommended medically,

but I had one period again

412

: 00:23:07

and then I was pregnant again.

413

: 00:23:09

It's not recommended, it wasn't my

midwife brain, but it was just like my...

414

: 00:23:16

Yeah, my own.

415

: 00:23:17

Sometimes you also, you make choices.

416

: 00:23:19

You don't realize you're actually

making it as a choice, you're

417

: 00:23:21

just also not using contraception.

418

: 00:23:23

And maybe you haven't even had the thought

process of what's happening, or maybe

419

: 00:23:28

you have missed a pill so you're not

actually planning to be pregnant, but

420

: 00:23:33

through whatever circumstance I was then

pregnant again very quickly and thrilled.

421

: 00:23:40

You know, absolutely thrilled about it.

422

: 00:23:41

And you know, I very well know

the risks of pregnancy, right?

423

: 00:23:45

Through experiencing for other people and

through miscarriage and through baby loss.

424

: 00:23:50

But I was thrilled to be pregnant.

425

: 00:23:51

For me - and again every experience

is really different - I did

426

: 00:23:54

have pregnancy based nausea.

427

: 00:23:56

So I'd had it by this point in the last

year for, you know, two months with my

428

: 00:24:01

first, and then I'd had it for about four

months through the pregnancy with Fatima.

429

: 00:24:06

So what's that like

several months, you know?

430

: 00:24:08

I know.

431

: 00:24:09

Sounds a bit competitive- I sounded a

bit competitive mum then, didn't it?

432

: 00:24:12

Um, yeah.

433

: 00:24:13

So, you know, but even like the

thought of another four months

434

: 00:24:15

of pregnancy nausea, like, I just

felt really pleased to be pregnant.

435

: 00:24:19

VIKKI: Were you scared about

what could happen again?

436

: 00:24:22

ANNA KENT: again I think for me,

pregnancy makes me feel a little bit

437

: 00:24:26

invincible, which I'm grateful for.

438

: 00:24:29

Not everybody feels that, like

especially second trimester, I

439

: 00:24:32

just thought anything was possible.

440

: 00:24:33

What I did decide to do was at

32 weeks, I took early leave

441

: 00:24:37

from work, as I found it really

difficult to be a midwife in the NHS.

442

: 00:24:41

And I - particularly my focal point

was sometimes pregnant women that

443

: 00:24:46

are smoking at hospital entrances.

444

: 00:24:48

And that to me - I just found it

really difficult to separate because

445

: 00:24:53

we know that smoking directly harms,

an unborn, you know, that's, you

446

: 00:24:57

know, nobody can argue with that.

447

: 00:24:59

And I couldn't separate how on earth

somebody would do something that

448

: 00:25:03

is directly harming their child.

449

: 00:25:05

I'm bigger than that now,

I'm better than that now.

450

: 00:25:08

I work often with women who are smoking

and I absolutely recognise that for that

451

: 00:25:13

woman, she has her own million, billion,

billion things that have happened in

452

: 00:25:16

her life, why she's come to that moment.

453

: 00:25:19

It is still my responsibility to try

and be helpful in that relationship

454

: 00:25:24

and offer guidelines, but I definitely

believe you have to meet women where

455

: 00:25:26

they are in that moment and try and

really come from a point of love and

456

: 00:25:31

empathy to really understand what are

the circumstances for making this choice?

457

: 00:25:36

But that was the focus point to me.

458

: 00:25:38

I found it really difficult to not be

a very vulnerable woman when actually

459

: 00:25:42

everybody deserves an impartial,

compassionate, wonderful midwife.

460

: 00:25:46

And I couldn't be that.

461

: 00:25:47

I couldn't be that person at that time.

462

: 00:25:49

And I'm glad I recognised it as well.

463

: 00:25:51

Because the last thing I ever wanted

to be was like that disillusioned

464

: 00:25:55

nurse or midwife that clearly hates

their job, maybe doesn't even like

465

: 00:25:58

women and makes people feel bad.

466

: 00:26:01

I promised myself I would

never be that person.

467

: 00:26:03

Well, I'm glad that I could

step away and I actually...

468

: 00:26:07

we were living on the canal boat

still, and there was lots of baby geese

469

: 00:26:09

around where the canal boat was moored.

470

: 00:26:11

So I took every focus...

471

: 00:26:13

it probably was a little bit of

burying things again, if I'm honest.

472

: 00:26:18

But I really focused on...

473

: 00:26:19

I did this brilliant

pregnancy yoga course.

474

: 00:26:21

It was all about mindfulness and I really

connected with the women on it I made

475

: 00:26:25

a purposeful choice to do is surround

myself with positive birth stories.

476

: 00:26:29

Rather than go down the rabbit hole

of what possibly could go wrong,

477

: 00:26:31

I purposefully read blogs about

how it could be positive note.

478

: 00:26:36

I did a lot of research and reading

around home birth because I believe

479

: 00:26:41

that wherever somebody feels most

comfortable and relaxed - and so we

480

: 00:26:47

reduce our adrenaline, our oxytocin

gets to flow - they're more likely to

481

: 00:26:51

have then a positive birth experience.

482

: 00:26:54

And I don't mean positive birth experience

in that you have to meditate your

483

: 00:26:57

baby and a baby comes out your vagina!

484

: 00:26:59

For me, that isn't my

interpretation of positive birth.

485

: 00:27:01

Positive birth for me is

"did you feel listened to?

486

: 00:27:05

Did you feel well-informed?

487

: 00:27:06

Did you feel dignified?

488

: 00:27:08

Were you respected?

489

: 00:27:08

Were you heard?"

490

: 00:27:09

Like for me, that...

491

: 00:27:11

VIKKI: ...validated...

492

: 00:27:12

ANNA KENT: ...that to me is

my interpretation of positive

493

: 00:27:14

birth, everybody else can

have their own interpretation.

494

: 00:27:17

And what I'd felt with the

canal boat, because we were sort

495

: 00:27:19

of moored just like off grid.

496

: 00:27:22

I had thought "if I have a big bleed then

I don't want to be transferring off a

497

: 00:27:26

canal boat", because it's quite ungainly,

like the step off a canal boat anyway!

498

: 00:27:31

And I just thought about my

ex-husband like having to heave me

499

: 00:27:33

like under the arm, onto the side.

500

: 00:27:36

So I couldn't work up the

logistics of actually getting

501

: 00:27:37

off the boat if I was bleeding.

502

: 00:27:40

I wasn't thinking about

bleeding as in fear.

503

: 00:27:42

I was thinking it more of...

504

: 00:27:43

this, again, an interesting topic is

some people like to sell fear-free birth.

505

: 00:27:49

Absolutely, if that's how

you want to think, you know,

506

: 00:27:52

everybody's choice, et cetera.

507

: 00:27:54

But I think fear has its role as

long as it's within mindfulness.

508

: 00:27:59

So fear keeps us safe.

509

: 00:28:01

Fear of a risk that is real means we

are motivated to mitigate that risk.

510

: 00:28:08

And nobody can say there

isn't risks in birth.

511

: 00:28:11

I don't wanna focus on

them at this moment.

512

: 00:28:12

I think it's quite clear that we all

acknowledge there are risks in birth, but

513

: 00:28:16

for me, having a fear of having a bleed

and not being able to get help, it wasn't

514

: 00:28:23

a manifestation of a trauma anxiety.

515

: 00:28:25

Actually, for me that was a really

practical thing to step through,

516

: 00:28:28

because that was my experience - I

was on a canal boat on a towpath.

517

: 00:28:32

So I felt, for me, the place I felt

most comfortable - bearing in mind

518

: 00:28:36

it was where I worked, so it was kind

of home from home - was back in the

519

: 00:28:40

maternity unit where I'd birthed Fatima.

520

: 00:28:41

So it was the room opposite

Fatima's birth, where I was working.

521

: 00:28:45

And I have to recognise my privilege

as well, because one of my colleagues,

522

: 00:28:49

Jayney - who's just a brilliant midwife

- she could come and be in with me.

523

: 00:28:54

Again I birthed without my ex-husband.

524

: 00:28:56

He'd preferred not to be there.

525

: 00:28:57

And it was brilliant actually to have...

526

: 00:28:59

and Nicky - who's an independent

midwife, she's this very spiritual

527

: 00:29:03

person in Nottingham - Nicky Grace.

528

: 00:29:05

She was...

529

: 00:29:07

I'd say my birth partner, but

I'd say like my birth keeper?

530

: 00:29:12

I think is maybe a better term,

without getting too fluffy!

531

: 00:29:16

Birth for me was vocal.

532

: 00:29:18

I felt so incredibly hot in

temperature as soon as I was labouring.

533

: 00:29:23

So I got into this room where I

could be naked, I could express

534

: 00:29:26

myself in whatever way came.

535

: 00:29:29

I was also, you know, there

was a lot of grief involved.

536

: 00:29:31

There was a lot of

memory of my last birth.

537

: 00:29:34

You know, it was this real like

rollercoaster and just, and also after

538

: 00:29:38

the contractions, that peace in between.

539

: 00:29:40

I was just like "oh!"

540

: 00:29:42

It felt like as high as a kite,

which felt lovely, you know?

541

: 00:29:45

So you're just riding this bloody

wacky and then her head started to

542

: 00:29:51

birth when I was in the birth pool.

543

: 00:29:52

And like I suddenly panicked.

544

: 00:29:54

I thought I was going to

split in half somehow.

545

: 00:29:56

Which is...

546

: 00:29:57

that's not my midwife brain!

547

: 00:29:59

"Just how wide do I have to get?"

548

: 00:30:01

That was my thoughts.

549

: 00:30:02

And then just through the darkness

was Jayney's voice, "reach down

550

: 00:30:06

and help her out of the water",

and there was Aisha, and just, oh.

551

: 00:30:12

Just the best person!

552

: 00:30:14

I then had a little bit of a wobble.

553

: 00:30:16

I thought I was gonna

have a retained placenta.

554

: 00:30:18

It wasn't based on anything real

that was happening, it was probably

555

: 00:30:20

just my own stuff playing out.

556

: 00:30:21

So I wanted to birth my placenta on land,

as you say, but on like the birth bed.

557

: 00:30:26

And I can remember I phoned my

sister and I was like " she's

558

: 00:30:30

here and she's perfect!"

559

: 00:30:31

VIKKI: Did you feel that rush of

love, when you had Aisha, when

560

: 00:30:36

you met her for the first time?

561

: 00:30:37

ANNA KENT: So again, being honest, I

don't know what happens after we die.

562

: 00:30:41

I don't know.

563

: 00:30:42

I don't know if there's a

heaven, I'd like to think so.

564

: 00:30:44

I don't know if we literally just

return to the earth I have no idea.

565

: 00:30:48

But I, I was kind of a little bit fixed.

566

: 00:30:51

I've always been really careful, because

Aisha is her own person in her own right

567

: 00:30:54

and absolutely deserves space for that.

568

: 00:30:56

I don't want the shadow from her

essentially her older sister.

569

: 00:31:00

I didn't know if Fatima was

going to be reborn through me.

570

: 00:31:04

It was just a thought I had.

571

: 00:31:05

I said "I don't know, I don't know!"

572

: 00:31:07

But then as soon as I saw Aisha, I

knew it was Aisha and she's, yeah,

573

: 00:31:13

she's absolutely my favourite person.

574

: 00:31:15

I'd had an interesting thing when I

was heavily pregnant with Aisha, I

575

: 00:31:19

didn't often go to Fatima's graveside.

576

: 00:31:21

It's not where I connect to her.

577

: 00:31:23

So I connect to her by being calm

and feeling onto my tummy and

578

: 00:31:25

remembering the space where I knew her.

579

: 00:31:27

And I wear a little chain

around my belly with a Fatima's

580

: 00:31:30

hands, it helps me connect.

581

: 00:31:34

So that's where I feel her.

582

: 00:31:35

But I don't know, maybe I've

seen too many films or something.

583

: 00:31:37

I kind of felt that the grieving mum

should be sat by the graves, you know?

584

: 00:31:41

And there should be a willow tree.

585

: 00:31:42

It was a beautiful grave site.

586

: 00:31:44

But I didn't personally

feel connected to her there.

587

: 00:31:46

But I did write this letter,

because all my world had been Fatima.

588

: 00:31:49

And then - I was probably about five

months pregnant with Aisha - and I

589

: 00:31:52

wrote Fatima a letter, just saying "I

can't hold as much space for you I think

590

: 00:31:57

anymore, because Aisha's going to need me.

591

: 00:31:59

And that doesn't mean I don't love you,

but Aisha's going to need me for really

592

: 00:32:03

practical things and all the love.

593

: 00:32:05

And that will never taint

my thoughts for you.

594

: 00:32:07

But I just apologise, I can't always

have all my thoughts for you".

595

: 00:32:11

And I wrote this letter and

put it next to her grave.

596

: 00:32:14

What I didn't know was that

mums don't work like that.

597

: 00:32:18

Our hearts just grow to cope.

598

: 00:32:23

Reminded I can't speak for

mums, I can't speak for birthing

599

: 00:32:25

people, I recognise that.

600

: 00:32:26

But yeah, so I'd really worried

about how I would hold...

601

: 00:32:31

because, you know, Fatima was

literally born a year before Aisha,

602

: 00:32:34

so it was a really concentrated time.

603

: 00:32:38

I was still grieving whilst pregnant.

604

: 00:32:39

I still grieve now.

605

: 00:32:41

I'm still on a process of it.

606

: 00:32:43

I didn't know what my capacity

would be, but yeah, I feel my

607

: 00:32:46

heart grew big enough to hold both.

608

: 00:32:49

And you can grieve and

love simultaneously.

609

: 00:32:51

You can hate and love simultaneously.

610

: 00:32:52

Like you can hold these opposing

really raw emotions simultaneously.

611

: 00:32:57

And again, mindfulness helps me

just to, and sometimes, you know,

612

: 00:33:02

if Aisha needs me for something,

you know, she does come first.

613

: 00:33:05

And so I will, if there are things I

want to think through and address with

614

: 00:33:10

Fatima, and with my memory of her, there

are times where I do have to hold that.

615

: 00:33:15

Maybe like the gold chair that we were

talking about earlier, I have to park

616

: 00:33:18

that because Aisha, she has to come first.

617

: 00:33:23

But then I then sort of dedicate some

space and some ceremony to connect

618

: 00:33:28

with my memories of all my children.

619

: 00:33:31

Yeah.

620

: 00:33:31

So I do feel like a mum of two.

621

: 00:33:34

I didn't feel like a mum,

if I'm honest, after the

622

: 00:33:36

miscarriage, after my miscarriage.

623

: 00:33:38

Other people I'm sure

will feel differently.

624

: 00:33:39

I didn't feel like a mother then.

625

: 00:33:42

I felt like a mother

after Fatima, you know.

626

: 00:33:45

She's been described as my miscarriage,

she's been described as my abortion.

627

: 00:33:49

In my clinical notes, she's been described

as my 'dummy run' by somebody close to me.

628

: 00:33:54

Friends have - very well-meaning

- but sometimes people don't know

629

: 00:33:58

what to say and I've literally

had people cross the road.

630

: 00:34:02

Not out of wanting harm for me, but out

of the fear of not saying anything wrong.

631

: 00:34:09

VIKKI: Yeah.

632

: 00:34:10

What, what helped, what helped you?

633

: 00:34:14

ANNA KENT: Like even now, like this

helps, like Fatima's real and exists.

634

: 00:34:17

Like sometimes I feel like I've

made it all up, it's imaginary.

635

: 00:34:21

Like having some form of a space to

safely share her and connect with her.

636

: 00:34:29

Like I had the newborn baby pictures

taken of Fatima and I can remember

637

: 00:34:33

before I saw them I was like, "please

make her look well, not sick".

638

: 00:34:39

And I don't know, there's probably

like four people in the world

639

: 00:34:41

I've maybe shown these photos to.

640

: 00:34:43

But then I'd blurred it

out a little bit, actually.

641

: 00:34:45

So I've got a short piece

in a midwifery textbook.

642

: 00:34:48

And it was the first time they'd put

the legal rights of the dying baby in.

643

: 00:34:53

So it felt like a really important

project to be involved in.

644

: 00:34:56

There's a picture of me holding

her in there, and I did blur and

645

: 00:34:59

I did make it black and white

because I also have to balance it.

646

: 00:35:02

You know, if somebody else is six

months through their pregnancy,

647

: 00:35:05

they probably don't need to see

a picture of my deceased child.

648

: 00:35:09

You know it's always this balance.

649

: 00:35:12

I'm constantly fluctuating as well.

650

: 00:35:15

There are my needs in there where I do

want to share, I do want to talk about,

651

: 00:35:18

but it's not without its boundaries.

652

: 00:35:20

And those boundaries are actually

really important because, as I did

653

: 00:35:24

in my pregnancy with Aisha, you know,

I chose to surround myself with the

654

: 00:35:28

'happy- ever- after' stories, because

actually that is what helped me create

655

: 00:35:32

the positive mindset for going to a birth

where I was very aware of the risks.

656

: 00:35:37

What has really helped me is if there is

any discussion about baby loss, I love it.

657

: 00:35:42

" Really simply, if people just

say, "oh, what was their name?"

658

: 00:35:45

VIKKI: Yeah.

659

: 00:35:46

ANNA KENT: It's so simple, but it

acknowledges that they were a person

660

: 00:35:50

and it acknowledges that you're a mum.

661

: 00:35:52

So I personally like that.

662

: 00:35:54

Or sometimes people have said things

like, "this is a space you can talk

663

: 00:36:00

about it if you'd like to, but also

if you don't, then that's okay."

664

: 00:36:03

You know, that some people have that

brilliant way of not stumbling over

665

: 00:36:06

the words like I'm doing, but...

666

: 00:36:09

One of the brilliant things I think about

writing about it as well, it makes it real

667

: 00:36:13

- a lot of people have reconnected with me.

668

: 00:36:17

Some people have apologised for not

doing more at the time, but I didn't...

669

: 00:36:20

that's not what it's about.

670

: 00:36:21

It's not about assigning what you

could have done or couldn't have done.

671

: 00:36:25

I think it's just really understanding

that, especially the time after baby loss,

672

: 00:36:31

I found it really lonely and in that space

of loneliness and grieving, you can play

673

: 00:36:37

really horrible mind tricks on yourself.

674

: 00:36:39

And often, as soon as you've

said something out loud,

675

: 00:36:43

it's disempowered, isn't it?

676

: 00:36:44

Like sometimes we have some really wacky

thoughts and as soon as you say them

677

: 00:36:46

out loud, you're like, "I don't think

I actually do believe that after all.

678

: 00:36:49

Brilliant.

679

: 00:36:49

I'm glad I got to say it!"

680

: 00:36:52

But I also really try and be mindful.

681

: 00:36:54

So for other people that have since

experienced baby loss, to also not rush to

682

: 00:37:00

them and be in their space and be in their

face and want to hear every nitty gritty.

683

: 00:37:04

Because that isn't also...

684

: 00:37:05

I am now the person that I've become

through all the things we've talked about.

685

: 00:37:09

I'm a talker and I think there's a big

power in being open, and I feel by voicing

686

: 00:37:15

my dark corners, I disempower them.

687

: 00:37:19

And also I maintain the power in

it by choosing to talk about it.

688

: 00:37:24

But not everybody has

their dynamics in that way.

689

: 00:37:27

Yeah, I don't know...

690

: 00:37:29

We all put our foot in our

mouth sometimes, don't we?

691

: 00:37:31

We all still do, so recognising

that, and I still apologise for

692

: 00:37:36

the things that I do or say.

693

: 00:37:39

VIKKI: But I think it's so important

for people to know that it is okay to

694

: 00:37:42

talk about the baby that you've lost.

695

: 00:37:44

ANNA KENT: I would prefer that.

696

: 00:37:45

I personally prefer that

but I can't speak for mums.

697

: 00:37:49

And so the dates of Fatima's birth

and death, I often get messages

698

: 00:37:54

from people saying, "Oh I'm just

thinking about Fatima today", because

699

: 00:37:56

again it makes it real for me.

700

: 00:37:58

You know, it's, it's hard enough

if you have somebody you want to

701

: 00:38:01

be holding anyway and looking after

and, you know, she'd be nearly

702

: 00:38:04

seven - you know, all the things

that I thought we'd be doing by now.

703

: 00:38:07

But it's, it's that balance of grieving

and processing and holding some form

704

: 00:38:15

of space for her because I feel, I

feel like I'm not doing my job for her

705

: 00:38:20

if she just falls into not existing.

706

: 00:38:25

I guess that's probably my biggest fear.

707

: 00:38:28

You know, she's important.

708

: 00:38:29

And I can remember Helen, my midwife,

who's also sadly no longer with us.

709

: 00:38:34

One of the things she'd always say

to me, if I was having a a difficult

710

: 00:38:37

day - which still happen, they do get

further apart, they do still happen.

711

: 00:38:42

She'd always say, "Anna, you gave more

love to her in her lifetime than some

712

: 00:38:45

people get in their long lifetimes.

713

: 00:38:47

And I can really hold onto that.

714

: 00:38:49

And it was a short lifetime,

but it was still a lifetime.

715

: 00:38:51

You know, it was real.

716

: 00:38:52

VIKKI: Yeah - what a beautiful

way of looking at it.

717

: 00:38:55

And am I right in thinking

there's actually a trust in

718

: 00:38:59

Helen's name at Nottingham?

719

: 00:39:01

Is that right?

720

: 00:39:02

ANNA KENT: Yeah so Helen, my wonderful

friend who was - people often say this,

721

: 00:39:06

don't they, about people that aren't with

us anymore - but it's completely true.

722

: 00:39:10

She was smart and she was

beautiful, and she was kind.

723

: 00:39:12

She was absolutely who you wanted with

you for any birth, let alone a loss.

724

: 00:39:17

Very sadly, Helen died from

suicide in: 2018

725

: 00:39:25

know what can you even say to that?

726

: 00:39:29

It's still, we're still all in the wake.

727

: 00:39:32

Her parents are so amazing, and Helen's

passion was midwifery training in

728

: 00:39:37

Liberia where she'd been working.

729

: 00:39:40

And so it's the Helen Lowenstein

Memorial Trust, (H.L.M.T.).

730

: 00:39:45

And by raising funds through awareness,

they are sponsoring women in Liberia

731

: 00:39:51

who wouldn't otherwise have an

opportunity for midwifery training

732

: 00:39:54

to do their midwifery training.

733

: 00:39:55

VIKKI: That's incredible.

734

: 00:39:56

Sorry that's moved me so much!

735

: 00:39:59

So I'll, I will put a link in

the show notes to that trust.

736

: 00:40:03

So if you've been moved by anything that

you've heard today, then I'll put a, a

737

: 00:40:09

link where you can donate to the trust.

738

: 00:40:13

What a legacy.

739

: 00:40:14

ANNA KENT: And they've been

really supportive of the books.

740

: 00:40:16

So again, one of the things

I didn't want to do was cause

741

: 00:40:18

any harm, like with my writing.

742

: 00:40:20

Um, they've been really supportive.

743

: 00:40:22

And what I love about, so

Helen is very much in there.

744

: 00:40:26

I described the birth of Fatima

very graphically, because that's

745

: 00:40:29

the story that I wanted to tell.

746

: 00:40:31

But yeah, I felt this real testament

to her fabulous work that I could

747

: 00:40:36

at least give one tiny little...

748

: 00:40:41

Yeah...

749

: 00:40:42

VIKKI: And that comes

across, that really does.

750

: 00:40:44

ANNA KENT: Oh yeah.

751

: 00:40:45

VIKKI: Yeah that does come across.

752

: 00:40:47

Did you find writing the book cathartic?

753

: 00:40:52

ANNA KENT: I think it's

probably saved my life.

754

: 00:40:55

And that's not an exaggeration.

755

: 00:40:56

I think as a mental health exercise

it was essential, even for the

756

: 00:41:01

processing of P T S D and moral injury.

757

: 00:41:04

I think until I actually wrote

it down, they were just really

758

: 00:41:07

unconnected - tended to be the negative

births without really the story and

759

: 00:41:12

the structure and the background.

760

: 00:41:14

I would launch myself into a birth

emergency that didn't go well.

761

: 00:41:20

Whereas the process of writing and

having to tell people that had never

762

: 00:41:23

been there before, what the situation

was and what the background was and

763

: 00:41:26

all the million steps that had led to

there, I found it extremely cathartic.

764

: 00:41:32

And helped me to forgive

myself for what I couldn't do.

765

: 00:41:36

And I still find it

quite difficult I guess.

766

: 00:41:39

I've got a really...

767

: 00:41:40

I've got a skillset that is useful

in humanitarian emergencies, which

768

: 00:41:45

I purposely gained, but I don't

want to work in them any more.

769

: 00:41:48

As I said in your previous episode,

some people have the capacity to

770

: 00:41:51

do humanitarian aid and have a

calm, loving home and have children

771

: 00:41:55

that thrive within that space.

772

: 00:41:57

I don't have that capacity, I don't.

773

: 00:42:00

It's the thing in front of me,

it's my full thought process.

774

: 00:42:04

And Aisha, my five year old, yeah,

she absolutely has to come first.

775

: 00:42:08

What I loved about the writing was

I still felt I could do some small

776

: 00:42:12

way, hopefully of speaking out,

with the hope that somehow women's

777

: 00:42:16

lives may be improved from it.

778

: 00:42:19

I could stand testament

to what I experienced.

779

: 00:42:22

I may have remembered things

differently to other people.

780

: 00:42:25

I probably haven't got everything right

in the book because I'm human, et cetera.

781

: 00:42:29

But yeah, it's been an absolute

lifesaver and even like added since

782

: 00:42:34

it's release, because it came out

in May, I'd gone through, cause I, I

783

: 00:42:38

tend to catastrophise in my thought

processes, which is quite common in

784

: 00:42:44

people that have experienced trauma.

785

: 00:42:45

So along the book side, you know, I was

gonna be disowned by my family and I was

786

: 00:42:49

gonna be socially ridiculed and all the

other things for the worse, worse, worse.

787

: 00:42:54

I was gonna be sued, I was gonna be done.

788

: 00:42:56

But so far touch wood, if you

believe in that, um, so far it's

789

: 00:43:02

not everybody likes it, but I'd say

the vast majority of people have

790

: 00:43:05

given me really, um, positive...

791

: 00:43:08

VIKKI: God, I, I just think it's

incredible and not many things

792

: 00:43:12

like move me to tears when I'm

reading them, but it really did.

793

: 00:43:16

But not, not just tears of

devastation, but tears of , where

794

: 00:43:21

it's just such an encapsulation of

humanity and what it is to be human

795

: 00:43:25

and the good and the bad of that.

796

: 00:43:27

And I think it is so important we don't

look away from the difficult parts of

797

: 00:43:33

life and the unfair parts of life that

we actually have to acknowledge it all.

798

: 00:43:39

And it is so important to talk

about these things so that we

799

: 00:43:42

normalise the conversation.

800

: 00:43:44

ANNA KENT: It has to

start with a conversation.

801

: 00:43:46

If we can't even talk about something

how on earth can we evolve and

802

: 00:43:51

grow and, and make things better?

803

: 00:43:54

So I talk about loads of taboos in the

book about like my sex drive and about my

804

: 00:43:58

body hair and about I didn't have a period

for a year and a half due to stress.

805

: 00:44:02

Because one of my mandates was that I

can talk about my own taboos because I

806

: 00:44:08

have the agency and have the privilege

of, you know, I don't get the negative

807

: 00:44:12

out of that, but hopefully in some

way for somebody that doesn't have

808

: 00:44:15

that capacity and agency or that

freedom to speak so openly hopefully

809

: 00:44:20

in some way that can somehow, at

least if we have a conversation, it

810

: 00:44:23

starts, I'm not, you know, claiming I

can solve all these problems, but we

811

: 00:44:26

have to at least talk about it first.

812

: 00:44:29

We have to acknowledge their existence.

813

: 00:44:31

Otherwise things can't get better.

814

: 00:44:34

VIKKI: And it does.

815

: 00:44:35

I think it is such a

wonderful thing you've done.

816

: 00:44:39

I mean, my God, I'm no psychotherapist,

but you are so incredibly hard on yourself

817

: 00:44:46

because you know, you have done so much

and yet all you can see is the stuff

818

: 00:44:51

that you haven't been able to do and

the fact you haven't been able to save.

819

: 00:44:55

But my God, you've made things

better for thousands of women.

820

: 00:44:58

And their families, because it

reverberates, that if you help one mum or

821

: 00:45:03

one dad, it's the children and everybody

around them that you help as well.

822

: 00:45:09

But yeah, I'm so honored that you

agreed to be on the podcast and it's

823

: 00:45:13

been an incredible conversation.

824

: 00:45:16

ANNA KENT: Oh my pleasure.

825

: 00:45:18

Thank you, for inviting me.

826

: 00:45:19

VIKKI: Where are you now

on your motherhood journey?

827

: 00:45:21

Are you in a good place?

828

: 00:45:22

ANNA KENT: Like genuinely I don't feel

my mental health has ever been better.

829

: 00:45:26

But none of what my life looks

like now is what I'd probably

830

: 00:45:29

imagined being an adult was like.

831

: 00:45:31

I expected, you know, marriage and kids

and my happily ever after and a big house.

832

: 00:45:36

I don't even know where

these imaginations came from!

833

: 00:45:38

So I am divorced, which is a

good thing, for all of us.

834

: 00:45:43

I always committed that I would make

the choices that were right for me

835

: 00:45:47

and were right for my daughter and

absolutely it was, it was a choice made

836

: 00:45:51

definitely with her needs involved.

837

: 00:45:53

I completely lone parent,

which I actually love.

838

: 00:45:57

It's like we're a good team.

839

: 00:45:59

We've got a little house, we're quite

near the sea, which is brilliant.

840

: 00:46:01

So I can just jump in that

cold water sometimes as a

841

: 00:46:06

good, um, mental health boost!

842

: 00:46:08

I'm still still working in the

NHS, I've been patient facing

843

: 00:46:11

throughout the whole Covid Pandemic.

844

: 00:46:13

And I think because I had had this

form of a breakdown in the past, I

845

: 00:46:17

think it actually made me more robust,

because I was aware of my limitations.

846

: 00:46:21

And I have fixed shifts which help.

847

: 00:46:22

I don't do night shifts, which help.

848

: 00:46:25

I work half the week as an emergency

cardiology nurse and half the

849

: 00:46:28

week as a specialist midwife for

teenagers and young parents to be.

850

: 00:46:32

And I love both jobs because they kind

of put pressure in different places and

851

: 00:46:37

I feel that I'm caring for the women

and birthing people that I work with.

852

: 00:46:41

I feel like I'm caring for them

authentically, which I always wanted.

853

: 00:46:45

I didn't want to feel I was faking it.

854

: 00:46:47

Because I think we can all sniff

out somebody that's disillusioned

855

: 00:46:50

and doesn't want to be there.

856

: 00:46:52

And I think, as say you know, everybody

deserves access to quality midwifery

857

: 00:46:56

and that also counts here, you know?

858

: 00:46:59

I'm in a really positive relationship

with my work, which has taken quite

859

: 00:47:01

a lot of time and effort with.

860

: 00:47:05

And I'm really grateful - really grateful

that I had this chance to survive,

861

: 00:47:10

both from the mental health impact,

but also from a dangerous pregnancy.

862

: 00:47:17

And you know, like, dare I say it, I'm,

one of my things is almost like, "let's

863

: 00:47:21

invite some more fun into our lives!"

864

: 00:47:23

Like, "everything's been so serious

for so long, let's be a bit silly!"

865

: 00:47:28

Especially because my daughter's a lone

child, so I make sort of a conscious

866

: 00:47:32

effort to have fun and be silly and,

you know, hang out with other people

867

: 00:47:36

with kids so she gets some freedom.

868

: 00:47:38

So it's not always serious and structured.

869

: 00:47:41

Like there is a place to

let her hair down as well.

870

: 00:47:44

And she, yeah, she's a

little, um, she's brilliant.

871

: 00:47:47

Like, I found five a really fun age.

872

: 00:47:49

I think early when my marriage was ending,

and she never slept through the night,

873

: 00:47:54

ever actually, until about six months ago.

874

: 00:47:58

I've always loved being her mum, it's

always felt like a real privilege

875

: 00:48:00

being her mum, but I didn't, I

didn't enjoy it all that much.

876

: 00:48:03

I was tired and I was stressed.

877

: 00:48:05

But you know, we've got this little

place and we can both relax in the

878

: 00:48:08

house and we're really chilled.

879

: 00:48:10

... And I can't speak on her

behalf, but yeah we're happy.

880

: 00:48:13

I'm thankful.

881

: 00:48:15

VIKKI: Oh, what a lovely,

lovely way to end.

882

: 00:48:17

It's been such a privilege talking to you.

883

: 00:48:20

ANNA KENT: Oh, likewise.

884

: 00:48:20

VIKKI: Thank you so much for sharing

your incredible story and just

885

: 00:48:25

lovely to hear of Aisha thriving!

886

: 00:48:28

Thank you so much!

887

: 00:48:30

ANNA KENT: Thanks for having me.

888

: 00:48:31

VIKKI: Really appreciate

all you are and all you do.

889

: 00:48:34

Thank you.

890

: 00:48:35

The theme music is 'Sunrise

Expedition' by Joseph MacDade.

891

: 00:48:39

Episodes are released on

all major podcast platforms.

892

: 00:48:43

Hit follow to keep up with all the latest,

and if you enjoy Blue MumDays, please

893

: 00:48:47

leave us a review on Apple Podcasts.

894

: 00:48:50

It helps more people to find us.

895

: 00:48:52

Thank you so much.