Transcripts
Lesley Morphett: Welcome to Fasken Podcast Women's Month in South Africa, where we celebrate the
Speaker:achievements and insights of remarkable women at Fasken.
Speaker:I'm Lesley Morphett, and today I'm joined by two incredible colleagues in the Fasken
Speaker:competition team who will share their career journeys and offer valuable advice to others.
Speaker:Welcome, Veronica Cadman and Palesa Mpe.
Speaker:I thought I'd start our chat today by sharing a bit about my journey as a lawyer.
Speaker:I'm the oldest one here and when I started articles, there were no women partners at my
Speaker:firm. In fact, I was one of the first two women to be appointed as a partner.
Speaker:But my colleague left soon afterwards, so I was the only woman partner for a while.
Speaker:Boy, was it a different world.
Speaker:I was often mistaken for my secretary and regularly asked if they could speak to my
Speaker:boss in meetings.
Speaker:It was expected that I would pour the tea even if I was leading the meeting.
Speaker:I rarely appreciated one of my male partners who made a point of pouring the tea in
Speaker:meetings when I could see the clients were expecting me to do so.
Speaker:My firm didn't know quite what to do when I told them I was expecting a baby.
Speaker:And I was a real trailblazer there for women who wanted to juggle work and family.
Speaker:There wasn't much flexibility around working hours.
Speaker:I started off after I had my baby working half day, but I stopped that when I found
Speaker:myself going home late in the evenings yet being paid for working fewer hours.
Speaker:I could go on for ages about this, but I'd like to think I made it easier for the women
Speaker:who followed in my footsteps there.
Speaker:Which leads me on to you, Veronica.
Speaker:You're an example of the next generation of women in law.
Speaker:Can you share an overview of your career?
Speaker:Veronica Cadman: Thanks, Leslie. I'm sure you did make it easier for women who came after you.
Speaker:When I started my articles, which was 1998, which was a very long time ago, the intake
Speaker:was about half men, half women of candidate attorneys.
Speaker:But if I cast my mind back, there were very few women partners and none of them were
Speaker:married or had children.
Speaker:If I tried to give an overview, I would say that there was very much a one size fits all
Speaker:attitude to what being a lawyer was like.
Speaker:And it was a it was a male one size fits all idea.
Speaker:A big focus on face time being in by age 15 and not leaving any any earlier than six,
Speaker:which was probably considered to be something of a half day.
Speaker:And I don't think there was a sense of lawyers generally, let alone female lawyers,
Speaker:having other interests or things that they wanted to prioritise in their lives.
Speaker:It's certainly a very different working world to the one that I think we're in today.
Speaker:So I have now been practising as an admitted attorney for for 23 years.
Speaker:I'm a partner in the competition law team, but I can still remember very clearly what it
Speaker:was like to start out and then climb the ladder.
Speaker:Palesa What was your impression of life as a lawyer and life as a female lawyer when you
Speaker:started in the profession?
Speaker:Palesa Mpe: Thanks, Veronica, and thank you to you, Lesley.
Speaker:I think, as you say, calling yourself a trailblazer is probably a very accurate
Speaker:description. I think back to my starting out my career, which is obviously still quite
Speaker:short. I've only been in this field for just under five years, but by and large, I've
Speaker:worked mostly under women.
Speaker:The teams I've been in have been quite top heavy with female partners, and I think more
Speaker:and more that's becoming the case where you sort of see the announcements of promotions
Speaker:from different law firms, be it on LinkedIn or whatever the public announcements are, and
Speaker:you're seeing more and more women make it all the way to the top.
Speaker:And it's obviously a remarkable progress that I think is quite necessary for women in
Speaker:the legal space.
Speaker:And I think it's been achieved over a relatively short amount of time, because I
Speaker:also think back to when I started my articles, which was only in 2018, and looking
Speaker:around the different tables that you gets in the canteen or restaurant where there's
Speaker:almost always a partner's table and a senior associates table and an associates table, and
Speaker:the partner's table is almost always a bunch of men with the one odd woman outlier.
Speaker:But that seems to be changing more and more and looks like everybody is working quite
Speaker:hard to recognise the achievements and the hard work of women practitioners and their
Speaker:contribution to the legal fraternity.
Speaker:So I do think that times are changing and quite quickly, sometimes not quickly enough,
Speaker:but the progress is definitely there.
Speaker:And I think seeing it as a young lawyer is very encouraging because often we come in and
Speaker:you sort of don't see that representation.
Speaker:You don't see the women in the positions that you'd like to one day aspire to.
Speaker:So more and more women entering those spaces, I think lowers those barriers and
Speaker:creates a sense of confidence for us as young lawyers to aspire to those positions
Speaker:and reach reach for them.
Speaker:So I think it's it's quite impressive what women have managed to do in the legal
Speaker:fraternity over the space of 20, 30, 40 years.
Speaker:So thank you very much to the likes of you, Lesley and you, Veronica, for for having that
Speaker:happen.
Speaker:Lesley Morphett: Thanks for that compliment, Palesa.
Speaker:Yeah, just listening to you, Veronica, or both of you.
Speaker:In fact, it really does bring it home to me.
Speaker:When I started articles, I was the only female in my year and there was one female in
Speaker:the year before me.
Speaker:So things have changed dramatically.
Speaker:And I have to say I think Fasken is rather a good example of a firm that is diversifying a
Speaker:lot and hats off to them.
Speaker:Veronica Cadman: I agree. I think the world has changed.
Speaker:If I look at in the time that I've been in practice how it's changed and and and some of
Speaker:the. The most significant changes have not actually been just to kind of gender
Speaker:dynamics, but the changes that the Covid pandemic has has brought to the way in which
Speaker:we work and facilitating the prioritisation by all people, whether men or women, of
Speaker:things that are important to them, and making time for that while being very aware
Speaker:of the fact that we are in a service industry and we are committed to supporting
Speaker:our clients and to meeting and exceeding their expectations.
Speaker:Lesley Morphett: Yeah, that's a good point.
Speaker:And wise words of advice.
Speaker:One of my pieces of advice there would be don't take things too personally.
Speaker:Just give of your best, which is better than you probably think it is.
Speaker:What advice would you have for Lisa?
Speaker:Palesa Mpe: I think it's neat to be able to advocate for ourselves, to not be afraid to express our
Speaker:ideas and opinions, or to even disagree with other voices in the room.
Speaker:I think often times we're so worried about that being rebuffed that we tend not to give
Speaker:the opinion at all, especially if it's a dissenting view.
Speaker:But I think if one reminds themselves that the worst thing that can happen and that kind
Speaker:of situation is that you walk away with a new learning experience and you walk away
Speaker:with a few lessons that then it will always be a positive outcome, even if it's not
Speaker:necessarily the one that we were hoping for.
Speaker:So we offer a very unique perspective and that is oftentimes our most valuable asset,
Speaker:and we should never be afraid to be confident in the way we express ourselves and
Speaker:in expressing ourselves in a room full of other voices.
Speaker:Lesley Morphett: And some other practical advice that I think we've chatted about in the past is also about
Speaker:balance in life.
Speaker:Veronica Cadman: I think that's really key.
Speaker:Leslie, I think Lisa alluded to in a separate conversation that one needs to look
Speaker:after machines to ensure their longevity and to ensure that they continue to perform at
Speaker:the levels that we would like them to.
Speaker:And we are so much more than machines, and we need to ensure that that we do have other
Speaker:things in our lives that balance out commitments and demands to be able to take a
Speaker:more holistic view.
Speaker:Palesa Mpe: Thanks, Veronica. And I think that's a very important takeaway that lawyers, young or
Speaker:old, should be reminded of, that our biggest asset and our offering to our client is
Speaker:ourselves. It's our mental capacity.
Speaker:We are the service that we offer.
Speaker:And in order to ensure that there is this longevity on the asset that is the legal
Speaker:mind, it's important to take care of the person that is giving this legal advice.
Speaker:It's important to find that work life balance, to do the self care, to ensure that
Speaker:we we are always able to function optimally.
Speaker:And that doesn't mean functioning within our roles as corporate professionals 24 over
Speaker:seven, but allowing time to switch off and recover so that we can come back and do what
Speaker:we do the next day and the day after that and the day after that.
Speaker:So I think my generation, millennials, have been quite good at advocating for the work
Speaker:life balance, and I think we're making many strides along that path, especially as you
Speaker:mentioned, the Kovit has introduced new ways of working and people realise that we don't
Speaker:have to be sitting in a boardroom all day, every day in order to be effective and to get
Speaker:the job done. So I think hopefully going forward, lawyers especially will find that
Speaker:we're able to take care of ourselves as people first in order to function optimally
Speaker:as lawyers and professionals.
Speaker:Lesley Morphett: Thanks, both of you.
Speaker:I think those have been very helpful insights and thank you very much for sharing
Speaker:them. I think your experience and our experience and advice will hopefully inspire
Speaker:our listeners. Thanks very much for your time.
Speaker:Veronica Cadman: Thanks very much, Leslie.
Speaker:Palesa Mpe: Thank you, ladies.
