"Exiles in Babylon, Preston Sprinkle and reaching Gen Z through authentic conversations around Faith, Sexuality and Gender.
Episode 1 •
16th April 2022 • The City Network Podcast • Robert Frazier
00:00:00
00:50:24
Shownotes
City Network Podcast Season 2 Episode 1 Preston Sprinkle, Exiles in Babylon.
Take a look at prestonsprinkle.com
get a link to Theology in the Raw Conference.
Get tickets for the City Network Conference to hear from Preston in person at citynetworkconference.org
[00:00:00] : You're listening to the city network podcast. Our mission is to grow and multiply healthy churches in the Treasure Valley and beyond? Head to the city network dot org for more info on our initiatives to catalyze church transformation and church planting. Here's today's podcast. Hey, welcome everyone to the City Network podcast. My name is josh brand. Um I'm here with co host robert Frazier. It's up. Did you just freeze josh here and today Sprinkle. Did I on your end, your friends like right after you said my name. Yeah, my back now. Yeah, you're back. Well, welcome once again to the city work podcast and we're here with press to Sprinkle and we're super Excite it. Mhm. He's four for, for joining us. I think we're getting like every other word josh is are you getting every other word. Preston from him? Yeah. All right. I'll join, join in on my phone. I'm at the building. You never know with construction stuff like building. Alright. Yeah, well, my name is robert preacher. I'm one of the co host of the podcast and part of the city network. And we are excited to have our guest today press and Sprinkle, who is internationally renowned author and somewhat expert leader on the Center for Faith and sexuality. Right. Is that the name of it? They get right? Center for faith, sexuality and gender. It's sexuality and gender. Got to get all three. All right. And president also here locally in Boise and I'm stoked about your conference coming up in March? The theology and the rock conference? You guys have an amazing lineup. How did you do that? Do you have like dirt on these guys or what was the, I've had, I would say at least actually all of them except for David Platt. I've had them all in my podcast at some point or another and have gotten to know some more than others through the years, you know? Um, yeah, it's a, it's a small world. But yeah, I'm super. Even though I know them though, I mean they're all pretty, most of them are pretty big names. So even just because I might have some kind of relational connection doesn't mean they can, they would say yes. But they, I mean, yeah, that 90% of people I asked said they can, they want to be a part of it. So I'm still in Boise and March. It's an easy sell. Right? Yeah. Right. Okay. Well, uh, suppressed when we asked you beyond today, probably just just want to hang out. We had, we had a great lunch last week. Really enjoyed connecting with you. You know, we're both, It's funny like you're one of those people that I've known about and like we've kind of swirled around each other but haven't hung out. And it was like all of a sudden, it was like, I got to actually meet with this guy. So I was just watching your daughter that we did that christmas art thing a couple years ago and she did such a great job with that? Uh so yeah, let's, let's dive in. Tell us just a little bit about yourself, where you came from and why you started the center. Yeah, so born and raised in California um 45 in a christian since I was about 19 fell in love with kind of the academic side of Christianity um which is weird because I hated, hated to read, read at all our study like that wasn't anything that I was into. But then when I met jesus almost overnight, God gave me a hunger to just dive deep into his word and spent the next 10, 12 years and christian education. Um it was a bible for a christian college professor for a number of years and that was just a dream job waking up every day and teaching college students bible is just amazing. Um did that for a number of years in a few different places and then I got to Boise in 2014 because the bible college, I was teaching that we wanted to plant an extension campus here. Some of, you might remember that eternity bible college, which man we, we, I did everything I could to get that thing off the ground, but it just, it just wasn't wasn't happening and it was a lot of people are really excited about the bible college and I think still still are and would be, but to translate that excitement to pay tuition butts in the seats to make it financially viable, you know, it wasn't my gifting to transfer that kind of excitement to um actually launch into college. So we did run for about a year um with a small handful of students. Um, but ended up just kind of closing it down because it just wasn't, you know, we just have the money to kind of sustained, kind of five years of slow growth, we needed it to kind of grow quickly, otherwise the bible college just couldn't fund it. So right after that, that was 2000 and 16 when we closed down the campus. Um, and almost immediately I went into, helped create the Center for face sexuality and gender. I had already been doing a lot of like pastoral training for several, well, a few years before that speaking at churches and stuff. And so, um, that was kind of like my part time side gig, so to speak. You know, helping leaders think through LGBTQ related questions in particular. But the demands were just growing, growing, growing. So when the bible college goes down, um, a buddy of mine, while buddy, he's 72 years old, but he helped me start the nonprofit, which launched in january 2017. So that's what I do now full full time is helping christian leaders think through questions about face sexual, face exploding gender with art, if I can say my mission statement with theological faithfulness. That's obviously a huge value and courageous love. How do we love people? Well, while staying true to what the bible says about sex, sexuality and gender. So yeah, it's been fun that that conversation has shifted so much in the last 10 years. I I remember as a kid watching tv shows that were 30 years old in the from the fifties and sixties and like, you know, spousal abuse was like a joke in the fifties, you know, like, and like some sexuality pieces, but um a lot of race stuff that was out of place now you watch like an office episode that's 10 years old and you can't imagine that being made and put on a major streaming service today because like, the conversation around sexuality is shifted so radically right? Which, you know, over a 10 year period, I think a lot of people are feeling just a lot of whiplash over like, you know, okay, what where are the lines, what am I supposed to be thinking? How am I supposed to be engaging generously as a follower of jesus? Um, and then, you know, for I think most of us within the city network, we hold to the traditional view of marriage and sexuality and at the same time want to be radically hospitable to the world around us and helping them discover, like, so I'd love to hear from you. Like what, where along the journey have you been surprised in in in what you've experienced in the conversations you've had and where have you? Yeah, let's just start there like where have you been surprised the last 10 years? It's hard. Yeah, there's so many layers to that. It's hard to give one answer maybe um maybe one surprise more recently is that and if you paid close attention to the conversation, you know that it's kind of shifted from focusing on the L. B. You know sexuality and now it's really focused hardcore on on the T. Or even the que the queer non binary trans gender identity piece. Um I don't know if that was a surprise. Well once the Supreme Court made the decision in 2015 to legalize same sex marriage, a lot of especially older gay and lesbian people were like all right, we're good. Um You know it's it's. Yeah. Yeah and and you know, depending on where you live, I guess it does depend on where you live to some extent. But for the most part society has become very accepting um sometimes almost too overly maybe celebratory of of same sex sexuality, you know um You know and that's it. Certain yeah, there might be certain towns whatever we saw two dudes holding hands, you might people might kind of freak out, you might get you know called names or whatever and that still does exist. But I would say overwhelmingly people or it's just kind of like not not a huge deal anymore. Um But that's created space for this trans conversation. That wasn't so surprising where it where it is a little surprising is that some of the loudest voices in the trans conversation. Now I'll say you know some of the loud trans activists are promoting a viewpoint that is only held by a small percentage of very radical progressive people that their greatest pushback are coming from traditional liberals. So like in the same sex marriage debates, you had pretty neatly divided like the conservatives versus liberals. Like if you're against same sex marriage, you can predict who that person voted for if you're for it. Same thing. Like it was so neat and tidy. We're here. It's like some of the loudest critique, some of the most hostile conversations are among people who hate republicans and donald trump, you know like or christians or whatever like it's so it's kind of an in house kind of fight. We saw this with J. K. Rowling and rolling or how is their name and others, a lot of debates between feminists renaming Quidditch because they don't want to be associated with jake. Yeah, stuff like that. It's like here here's you know somebody who's a pretty boy out and proud feminist. Um not your token. Yeah. Yeah. So that I would say to answer a question. Um but that's been the most interesting thing is that no longer can you kind of hide behind I'm of this tribe. Therefore we all believe this about this thing. Like now you actually have to engage the specific issues at hand. You can't Just yeah, hide behind your tribal kind of viewpoint with the gender conversation in particular. Well, and I think you're also looking in the last 10 years, so you have a 25 year old who came of age in like as gay marriage was being legalized and they are like, even in Boise bible college where I've done some like preaching down there, there's a lot of students who do not hold the traditional view of marriage and sexuality because they've been so shaped by a culture that said this is there's there's nothing to worry about here. And so like they're reshaping Christianity from the youngest age is forward and we're, and we're having to like, you know, as we're hiring people, okay, what does it look like for us to have those conversations in the hiring process about what do you believe about this and where you at, how soft or hard are you in those positions? And have you seen a shift in the way that young christians are thinking about this? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I think society in particular, white people have done a really great job wrongly so, but great job correlating debates about sexuality with like civil rights. Um, I wish my white brothers and sisters would talk to some people of color about that correlation and see how they feel. But um, yeah, I mean there's not a single gen z person who wants to be on the wrong side of like racism, right? Um the civil rights by standing up for the oppressed. Um so once you convince people that debates about marriage and sexuality are basically the same thing, there's just gonna be an assumption from younger people and you have made a great point that people are coming of age in a world where where same sex marriage is not even a thing and it's like just a given. Yeah, I mean, in that age, 25 2025 older gen Z's young millennials, you know, um and I, I'm, we can go here, I mean, I think the silence of the church is devastating and we can talk about that more, I mean, when the church doesn't spend a lot of time and energy, disciple in gen z and questions about faith, sexuality and gender, somebody's disciple in them very well, the question is, what voice does the church have in that discipleship process, but silence isn't like, well, if we just don't talk about it, they will naturally have a christian view of sex and sexuality, like, no, they're bathed in an alternative viewpoint, it's very compelling, very loud, seems beautiful, seems loving, and if we're not helping to present a more compelling christian viewpoint than not, only will we leave, it's like, okay, well, they'll, you know, gen z will be more affirming they're not gonna want to have, they're not going to want to even associate with the church. That's not that, So this is just about faith, it's not just about sexual and gender, it's about faith, sexuality and gender in the future of our future leaders. Really. One of the things I uh, yeah, one of the things I really appreciate about you, Preston, and both the books you put out, and also even video curriculum is not just offering kind of like a church curriculum, you know, across the demographic, but specifically, here's resources for teens, here's resources for the next generation. I'm curious why do you think churches don't do that already? Why do you think there's that silence? And then, like, what would you, what would be like the first steps? I mean, I'll just promote your stuff and say it's great, like you use the stuff that that center for uh, faith, sexuality and gender puts out as a great starting point. But other than that, what would be steps for, like, let's say there's a church leader listening who says, man, we have been silent and we need we need to disciple the next generation holistically. How do we do that? Yeah, that's a great question and please here, I know shame if if you're a leader, like, yeah, I know I need to address this. I haven't done. So, look, as you to know, and I do know from past experience pastoral ministry is crazy, right? I mean, there's so many things you're so many issues, you need to be an expert on and now we need to be expert epidemiologists and you know, people ask you about the vaccines and pandemics is like, I didn't study like cosmology, like so the stress that pastors have to go through to be able to speak intelligently on so many things and then now add this too. So I please like lots of grace towards people who are in the trenches of ministry. But yeah, I mean, having said that, I mean questions about face sexual and gender have become some of those pressing ethical and discipleship questions facing the church today, Like at least the top two or three silence is not an option, it's just it's just it's not. Um and so what does that look like? I mean, first of all, I would encourage pastors to whatever leadership team you have begin their like your leadership team needs needs training. Like I know I'm not saying like, oh, just go out and preach a sermon on homosexuality next week. Like we, you need to get the leaders on the same page having open honest conversations, where are your leaders at what questions they have? How can we embody both the grace and truth of jesus because if you, if it's all one side or the other. I mean you're it's like flying an airplane with one wing if all you do is preach against same sex relationships and not talk about, okay, how do we walk with people who are experiencing same sex sexuality. Um, so Grace and truth. Yeah, leadership training. Um, and then, yeah, we, we have to start disciple are people that could look many different ways depending on the size of your church. It's, it can include preaching, but I think it can't be limited to just your once a year sermon on homosexuality. Like it's got to go beyond that josh. You asked about the fear, you know, in my experience, I think there are several layers to why leaders are hesitant to address it. Um, typically churches where it hasn't hit home. I always get the call when like the pastor's kid comes out as non binary or gay or something. Um, that's what usually it's like, oh, we need to talk about this. Well now we have too many people. Yeah, exactly. So usually it's like, well, I'll hear people say, well, we're really glad you're addressing this issue, press and we don't have this issue at our church, but we're glad you're helping those that dude, I'm like, statistically you do. Um, 83% of LGBT people are raising the church. Um, 30% of gen z, christians identify as LGBT q 30% christians, 39% of gen Z just as a whole identifies as LGBTQ according to the recent barna study. Um, so that, I mean this percentage wise, A lot of LGBT people raising a church, Typically they are scared. They kind of slip out the back door usually without telling anybody what they're wrestling with. Um, so I'm sorry, I'm kind of over the place, but yeah, real quick. So yeah, some of the fears, I mean, it's like, well, it's not that relevant or already know where we're at and I just assume all my people know where we're at or there's a fear like, man, I know my churches all divided and if I preach the truth of what God says, people are gonna leave, if I preach grace, other people are gonna leave and man, if I even talk about loving LGBT people, our biggest donor is gonna leave and how do we, you know, so I think there's some of that to which, which is true. If you address, if you model the grace and truth of jesus, and how you address this conversation, somebody's gonna leave, somebody is not gonna like that. I mean, just look at the life of jesus. I mean, he made people mad all over the place. Yeah, definitely. One of the, one of the things that I've noticed with the conversation in general with gen z, with emerging, with emerging generations is, um, I think, did we, did we lose robert here? We lost robert? Do I need uh, record on this? Yeah, I just started recording. I don't know if that I can send you guys a file of, Okay. Okay. Sounds great. Maybe a lot back in, sorry about all the technical issues today. Oh no, no, no, usually it's me. That's right. I would say, I would say this is uncharacteristic, but we've had, you know, stuff a few times like this. Uh, but what one of the questions I was curious to ask you about just engaging beyond specifically this conversation. Um, but just the gospel and reaching the emerging generations from the gospel. I've heard tim Keller talking in recent years about, you know, the gospel hasn't changed, but the major life questions that younger younger people are asking have changed, and so that means how we contextualized and, and really speak into a way that's compelling and making jesus known and all of that. So, just curious, I mean, as a father with teenagers caring about your kids, what would you say about how to, how to speak the gospel to these emerging generations? Yeah, that's good. And here's where my, I want to be careful cause I'm I'm, I'm not in the trenches of youth ministry, I'm not an expert on youth culture. I do have four gen Z kids, I guess that helps to some extent. And, you know, I dabble um in, in the kind of the youth, what's going on, but I wouldn't want anything I say about this, I would want youth leaders to kind of cross check what I'm saying. Um, you know, I guess what the big thing for me is the big difference between youth ministry, like 20 years ago in youth ministry now, our youth culture, let's say, say the difference would be like millennials and gen z...
[00:00:00] : You're listening to the city network podcast. Our mission is to grow and multiply healthy churches in the Treasure Valley and beyond? Head to the city network dot org for more info on our initiatives to catalyze church transformation and church planting. Here's today's podcast. Hey, welcome everyone to the City Network podcast. My name is josh brand. Um I'm here with co host robert Frazier. It's up. Did you just freeze josh here and today Sprinkle. Did I on your end, your friends like right after you said my name. Yeah, my back now. Yeah, you're back. Well, welcome once again to the city work podcast and we're here with press to Sprinkle and we're super Excite it. Mhm. He's four for, for joining us. I think we're getting like every other word josh is are you getting every other word. Preston from him? Yeah. All right. I'll join, join in on my phone. I'm at the building. You never know with construction stuff like building. Alright. Yeah, well, my name is robert preacher. I'm one of the co host of the podcast and part of the city network. And we are excited to have our guest today press and Sprinkle, who is internationally renowned author and somewhat expert leader on the Center for Faith and sexuality. Right. Is that the name of it? They get right? Center for faith, sexuality and gender. It's sexuality and gender. Got to get all three. All right. And president also here locally in Boise and I'm stoked about your conference coming up in March? The theology and the rock conference? You guys have an amazing lineup. How did you do that? Do you have like dirt on these guys or what was the, I've had, I would say at least actually all of them except for David Platt. I've had them all in my podcast at some point or another and have gotten to know some more than others through the years, you know? Um, yeah, it's a, it's a small world. But yeah, I'm super. Even though I know them though, I mean they're all pretty, most of them are pretty big names. So even just because I might have some kind of relational connection doesn't mean they can, they would say yes. But they, I mean, yeah, that 90% of people I asked said they can, they want to be a part of it. So I'm still in Boise and March. It's an easy sell. Right? Yeah. Right. Okay. Well, uh, suppressed when we asked you beyond today, probably just just want to hang out. We had, we had a great lunch last week. Really enjoyed connecting with you. You know, we're both, It's funny like you're one of those people that I've known about and like we've kind of swirled around each other but haven't hung out. And it was like all of a sudden, it was like, I got to actually meet with this guy. So I was just watching your daughter that we did that christmas art thing a couple years ago and she did such a great job with that? Uh so yeah, let's, let's dive in. Tell us just a little bit about yourself, where you came from and why you started the center. Yeah, so born and raised in California um 45 in a christian since I was about 19 fell in love with kind of the academic side of Christianity um which is weird because I hated, hated to read, read at all our study like that wasn't anything that I was into. But then when I met jesus almost overnight, God gave me a hunger to just dive deep into his word and spent the next 10, 12 years and christian education. Um it was a bible for a christian college professor for a number of years and that was just a dream job waking up every day and teaching college students bible is just amazing. Um did that for a number of years in a few different places and then I got to Boise in 2014 because the bible college, I was teaching that we wanted to plant an extension campus here. Some of, you might remember that eternity bible college, which man we, we, I did everything I could to get that thing off the ground, but it just, it just wasn't wasn't happening and it was a lot of people are really excited about the bible college and I think still still are and would be, but to translate that excitement to pay tuition butts in the seats to make it financially viable, you know, it wasn't my gifting to transfer that kind of excitement to um actually launch into college. So we did run for about a year um with a small handful of students. Um, but ended up just kind of closing it down because it just wasn't, you know, we just have the money to kind of sustained, kind of five years of slow growth, we needed it to kind of grow quickly, otherwise the bible college just couldn't fund it. So right after that, that was 2000 and 16 when we closed down the campus. Um, and almost immediately I went into, helped create the Center for face sexuality and gender. I had already been doing a lot of like pastoral training for several, well, a few years before that speaking at churches and stuff. And so, um, that was kind of like my part time side gig, so to speak. You know, helping leaders think through LGBTQ related questions in particular. But the demands were just growing, growing, growing. So when the bible college goes down, um, a buddy of mine, while buddy, he's 72 years old, but he helped me start the nonprofit, which launched in january 2017. So that's what I do now full full time is helping christian leaders think through questions about face sexual, face exploding gender with art, if I can say my mission statement with theological faithfulness. That's obviously a huge value and courageous love. How do we love people? Well, while staying true to what the bible says about sex, sexuality and gender. So yeah, it's been fun that that conversation has shifted so much in the last 10 years. I I remember as a kid watching tv shows that were 30 years old in the from the fifties and sixties and like, you know, spousal abuse was like a joke in the fifties, you know, like, and like some sexuality pieces, but um a lot of race stuff that was out of place now you watch like an office episode that's 10 years old and you can't imagine that being made and put on a major streaming service today because like, the conversation around sexuality is shifted so radically right? Which, you know, over a 10 year period, I think a lot of people are feeling just a lot of whiplash over like, you know, okay, what where are the lines, what am I supposed to be thinking? How am I supposed to be engaging generously as a follower of jesus? Um, and then, you know, for I think most of us within the city network, we hold to the traditional view of marriage and sexuality and at the same time want to be radically hospitable to the world around us and helping them discover, like, so I'd love to hear from you. Like what, where along the journey have you been surprised in in in what you've experienced in the conversations you've had and where have you? Yeah, let's just start there like where have you been surprised the last 10 years? It's hard. Yeah, there's so many layers to that. It's hard to give one answer maybe um maybe one surprise more recently is that and if you paid close attention to the conversation, you know that it's kind of shifted from focusing on the L. B. You know sexuality and now it's really focused hardcore on on the T. Or even the que the queer non binary trans gender identity piece. Um I don't know if that was a surprise. Well once the Supreme Court made the decision in 2015 to legalize same sex marriage, a lot of especially older gay and lesbian people were like all right, we're good. Um You know it's it's. Yeah. Yeah and and you know, depending on where you live, I guess it does depend on where you live to some extent. But for the most part society has become very accepting um sometimes almost too overly maybe celebratory of of same sex sexuality, you know um You know and that's it. Certain yeah, there might be certain towns whatever we saw two dudes holding hands, you might people might kind of freak out, you might get you know called names or whatever and that still does exist. But I would say overwhelmingly people or it's just kind of like not not a huge deal anymore. Um But that's created space for this trans conversation. That wasn't so surprising where it where it is a little surprising is that some of the loudest voices in the trans conversation. Now I'll say you know some of the loud trans activists are promoting a viewpoint that is only held by a small percentage of very radical progressive people that their greatest pushback are coming from traditional liberals. So like in the same sex marriage debates, you had pretty neatly divided like the conservatives versus liberals. Like if you're against same sex marriage, you can predict who that person voted for if you're for it. Same thing. Like it was so neat and tidy. We're here. It's like some of the loudest critique, some of the most hostile conversations are among people who hate republicans and donald trump, you know like or christians or whatever like it's so it's kind of an in house kind of fight. We saw this with J. K. Rowling and rolling or how is their name and others, a lot of debates between feminists renaming Quidditch because they don't want to be associated with jake. Yeah, stuff like that. It's like here here's you know somebody who's a pretty boy out and proud feminist. Um not your token. Yeah. Yeah. So that I would say to answer a question. Um but that's been the most interesting thing is that no longer can you kind of hide behind I'm of this tribe. Therefore we all believe this about this thing. Like now you actually have to engage the specific issues at hand. You can't Just yeah, hide behind your tribal kind of viewpoint with the gender conversation in particular. Well, and I think you're also looking in the last 10 years, so you have a 25 year old who came of age in like as gay marriage was being legalized and they are like, even in Boise bible college where I've done some like preaching down there, there's a lot of students who do not hold the traditional view of marriage and sexuality because they've been so shaped by a culture that said this is there's there's nothing to worry about here. And so like they're reshaping Christianity from the youngest age is forward and we're, and we're having to like, you know, as we're hiring people, okay, what does it look like for us to have those conversations in the hiring process about what do you believe about this and where you at, how soft or hard are you in those positions? And have you seen a shift in the way that young christians are thinking about this? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I think society in particular, white people have done a really great job wrongly so, but great job correlating debates about sexuality with like civil rights. Um, I wish my white brothers and sisters would talk to some people of color about that correlation and see how they feel. But um, yeah, I mean there's not a single gen z person who wants to be on the wrong side of like racism, right? Um the civil rights by standing up for the oppressed. Um so once you convince people that debates about marriage and sexuality are basically the same thing, there's just gonna be an assumption from younger people and you have made a great point that people are coming of age in a world where where same sex marriage is not even a thing and it's like just a given. Yeah, I mean, in that age, 25 2025 older gen Z's young millennials, you know, um and I, I'm, we can go here, I mean, I think the silence of the church is devastating and we can talk about that more, I mean, when the church doesn't spend a lot of time and energy, disciple in gen z and questions about faith, sexuality and gender, somebody's disciple in them very well, the question is, what voice does the church have in that discipleship process, but silence isn't like, well, if we just don't talk about it, they will naturally have a christian view of sex and sexuality, like, no, they're bathed in an alternative viewpoint, it's very compelling, very loud, seems beautiful, seems loving, and if we're not helping to present a more compelling christian viewpoint than not, only will we leave, it's like, okay, well, they'll, you know, gen z will be more affirming they're not gonna want to have, they're not going to want to even associate with the church. That's not that, So this is just about faith, it's not just about sexual and gender, it's about faith, sexuality and gender in the future of our future leaders. Really. One of the things I uh, yeah, one of the things I really appreciate about you, Preston, and both the books you put out, and also even video curriculum is not just offering kind of like a church curriculum, you know, across the demographic, but specifically, here's resources for teens, here's resources for the next generation. I'm curious why do you think churches don't do that already? Why do you think there's that silence? And then, like, what would you, what would be like the first steps? I mean, I'll just promote your stuff and say it's great, like you use the stuff that that center for uh, faith, sexuality and gender puts out as a great starting point. But other than that, what would be steps for, like, let's say there's a church leader listening who says, man, we have been silent and we need we need to disciple the next generation holistically. How do we do that? Yeah, that's a great question and please here, I know shame if if you're a leader, like, yeah, I know I need to address this. I haven't done. So, look, as you to know, and I do know from past experience pastoral ministry is crazy, right? I mean, there's so many things you're so many issues, you need to be an expert on and now we need to be expert epidemiologists and you know, people ask you about the vaccines and pandemics is like, I didn't study like cosmology, like so the stress that pastors have to go through to be able to speak intelligently on so many things and then now add this too. So I please like lots of grace towards people who are in the trenches of ministry. But yeah, I mean, having said that, I mean questions about face sexual and gender have become some of those pressing ethical and discipleship questions facing the church today, Like at least the top two or three silence is not an option, it's just it's just it's not. Um and so what does that look like? I mean, first of all, I would encourage pastors to whatever leadership team you have begin their like your leadership team needs needs training. Like I know I'm not saying like, oh, just go out and preach a sermon on homosexuality next week. Like we, you need to get the leaders on the same page having open honest conversations, where are your leaders at what questions they have? How can we embody both the grace and truth of jesus because if you, if it's all one side or the other. I mean you're it's like flying an airplane with one wing if all you do is preach against same sex relationships and not talk about, okay, how do we walk with people who are experiencing same sex sexuality. Um, so Grace and truth. Yeah, leadership training. Um, and then, yeah, we, we have to start disciple are people that could look many different ways depending on the size of your church. It's, it can include preaching, but I think it can't be limited to just your once a year sermon on homosexuality. Like it's got to go beyond that josh. You asked about the fear, you know, in my experience, I think there are several layers to why leaders are hesitant to address it. Um, typically churches where it hasn't hit home. I always get the call when like the pastor's kid comes out as non binary or gay or something. Um, that's what usually it's like, oh, we need to talk about this. Well now we have too many people. Yeah, exactly. So usually it's like, well, I'll hear people say, well, we're really glad you're addressing this issue, press and we don't have this issue at our church, but we're glad you're helping those that dude, I'm like, statistically you do. Um, 83% of LGBT people are raising the church. Um, 30% of gen z, christians identify as LGBT q 30% christians, 39% of gen Z just as a whole identifies as LGBTQ according to the recent barna study. Um, so that, I mean this percentage wise, A lot of LGBT people raising a church, Typically they are scared. They kind of slip out the back door usually without telling anybody what they're wrestling with. Um, so I'm sorry, I'm kind of over the place, but yeah, real quick. So yeah, some of the fears, I mean, it's like, well, it's not that relevant or already know where we're at and I just assume all my people know where we're at or there's a fear like, man, I know my churches all divided and if I preach the truth of what God says, people are gonna leave, if I preach grace, other people are gonna leave and man, if I even talk about loving LGBT people, our biggest donor is gonna leave and how do we, you know, so I think there's some of that to which, which is true. If you address, if you model the grace and truth of jesus, and how you address this conversation, somebody's gonna leave, somebody is not gonna like that. I mean, just look at the life of jesus. I mean, he made people mad all over the place. Yeah, definitely. One of the, one of the things that I've noticed with the conversation in general with gen z, with emerging, with emerging generations is, um, I think, did we, did we lose robert here? We lost robert? Do I need uh, record on this? Yeah, I just started recording. I don't know if that I can send you guys a file of, Okay. Okay. Sounds great. Maybe a lot back in, sorry about all the technical issues today. Oh no, no, no, usually it's me. That's right. I would say, I would say this is uncharacteristic, but we've had, you know, stuff a few times like this. Uh, but what one of the questions I was curious to ask you about just engaging beyond specifically this conversation. Um, but just the gospel and reaching the emerging generations from the gospel. I've heard tim Keller talking in recent years about, you know, the gospel hasn't changed, but the major life questions that younger younger people are asking have changed, and so that means how we contextualized and, and really speak into a way that's compelling and making jesus known and all of that. So, just curious, I mean, as a father with teenagers caring about your kids, what would you say about how to, how to speak the gospel to these emerging generations? Yeah, that's good. And here's where my, I want to be careful cause I'm I'm, I'm not in the trenches of youth ministry, I'm not an expert on youth culture. I do have four gen Z kids, I guess that helps to some extent. And, you know, I dabble um in, in the kind of the youth, what's going on, but I wouldn't want anything I say about this, I would want youth leaders to kind of cross check what I'm saying. Um, you know, I guess what the big thing for me is the big difference between youth ministry, like 20 years ago in youth ministry now, our youth culture, let's say, say the difference would be like millennials and gen z...
