That “big win” moment is supposed to feel chill, right? Instead, the vibe here is more like: congrats, now the pressure triples. Between Jay Schwedelson admitting he’s somehow more anxious after selling subjectline.com and Daniel Murray dropping a ridiculously simple conversion lever most marketers ignore, this one lands as equal parts real talk and immediately usable.

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Follow Daniel on LinkedIn and check out The Marketing Millennials podcast for sharp, no-fluff marketing insights. Subscribe to Ari Murray’s newsletter at gotomillions.co for sharp, actionable marketing insights.

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Best Moments:

(01:16) Selling a business sounds relaxing until Jay admits it cranked his anxiety up 10x

(03:13) The uncomfortable reason Jay sometimes turns down small-budget clients, even when they believe in you

(04:48) The easiest conversion lift you can test is not the offer, it’s the name of the offer

(06:37) The “one modifier word” title test that can change conversions fast

(08:12) Why tiny A/B tweaks teach you more than totally different versions

(09:15) Jay starts meditating every morning, and Daniel calls him out for the sun-staring habit

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Check out Jay’s YOUTUBE Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@schwedelson

Check out Jay’s TIKTOK: https://www.tiktok.com/@schwedelson

Check Out Jay's INSTAGRAM: https://www.instagram.com/jayschwedelson/

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Pre-order Jay Schwedelson’s new book, Stupider People Have Done It (out April 21, 2026). All net proceeds are donated to The V Foundation for Cancer Research—let’s kick cancer’s butt: https://www.amazon.com/Stupider-People-Have-Done-Marketing/dp/1637635206

Daniel Murray: Welcome to a new special series called The Bathroom Break,

Jay Schwedelson: that extra 10 minutes, you either have

Daniel Murray: to listen to marking tips or use the bathroom or both, but I don't recommend. But that's your choice.

Jay Schwedelson: This collab

Daniel Murray: is

Jay Schwedelson: gonna be super fun. We have Daniel Murray from the Marketing Millennials and me, Jay Schon from the Do This Not That podcast and subject line.com.

Jay Schwedelson: Each episode in this series, we are gonna go over quick tips about different marketing topics. And if you want to be in the bathroom, fine, just don't tell us about it. Thanks for checking it out.

Daniel Murray: We are back with another bathroom break. I am here with the man. Who officially sold subject line.com, guru conference, certified guru, two drum roll plays.

Daniel Murray: If you didn't, if you're not online. Constant contact.

Jay Schwedelson: You suck. You're such an idiot. You really are an

Daniel Murray: idiot. Uh, so everybody go flood these dms, flood everything and say congrats. 'cause this is a big deal. Yeah.

Jay Schwedelson: Yeah. This is a really great episode. You're in your car right now. You're like, okay, great. I need to hear about Jay selling some random thing.

Jay Schwedelson: No, uh, first of all, uh, thanks. I'm stoked. It's really cool. Constant Contact, a cool company. Uh, but, um, beyond all that, I'm not going anywhere. We're still, uh, causing all the chaos with Guru Conference. We're gearing it up bigger than ever, and they're leaning in. They wanna make this crazier than ever. So everyone's like, oh my goodness, do you feel so relaxed now?

Jay Schwedelson: Do you feel this? I go, no. I feel 10 x like more anxiety, more everything than I did before. 'cause now I want to crush life and I'm, my wife is like. What's wrong with you? You're like, worse than ever. I'm like, I don't know. I, I know what?

Daniel Murray: Oh my goodness. I mean, it's pressure when you're like, have a, you want to make it even better and better and better since you have a company involved.

Daniel Murray: So, um, it's,

Jay Schwedelson: that is true. I I, it is a weird thing though, like, and you know, like with you, with your clients, whatever, do you, do you wake up, I'm just curious about like your own pressure, whatever, do you ever feel like this, like. Great. We got a big deal or whatever, who cares? Whatever. Or do you instantly be like, how am I gonna over deliver?

Jay Schwedelson: Like where's your mindset on deals in general?

Daniel Murray: I think it always, the bigger the client, the more pressure to over deliver, the bigger the, and it always, it usually the correlation to how much someone pays you is the pressure of, um, over delivering. So it's like a small. Deal. Then I'm, I'm, I'm gonna still o over deliver 'cause that's my nature of, uh, work.

Daniel Murray: But if someone's coming and they. They come with these expectations a bigger deal, and they want to pay you more to do something, then it's the,

Jay Schwedelson: let me ask you, I know this isn't the topic we're gonna get into, but I'm just curious. I'm talking about if, if you're gonna do a deal with somebody and they don't have a lot of budget, okay.

Jay Schwedelson: And it's, it's not one of these companies that. You know, they're giving you small budget. If you do a good job, they're gonna give you big budget. It's one of these opportunities where they're like, this budget for us is a huge deal. We, we don't even normally spend this much. We really don't even have it.

Jay Schwedelson: Uh, but we, we believe in what you're doing. We're gonna give it a try. But really, we, we need this to go super far. A lot of times I actually turn down those opportunities because when the money means that much to them. And frankly, I'm being a jerk here and there's no upside. If I do a great job, I get concerned about is this a good use of time?

Jay Schwedelson: Does that make me a bad person or

what

Daniel Murray: you think? No, I mean, especially in service business, you're trading time for action. Where like if you're a software company means a little, right? Less. But if, I mean a software company does, if you have a lot of like customer support onboarding team and then you could.

Daniel Murray: Allocate those resources to a bigger deal. But I think, no. I think if, if there's a chance that that company, you believe that company has the potential to like scale in the future and you are on the scaling ship, then yes. But otherwise I. The pressure. I don't want your pressure of your a hundred percent budget on, on me because Right.

Daniel Murray: And I'm the fail point. I don't wanna be the fail point.

Jay Schwedelson: I totally agree with that a hundred percent. Yeah. That, that's a good way to frame it. Alright, speaking of the, let's, let's frame the topic of the day, what we're talking about here. You know, Dan and I were talking about okay, all these different topics we wanna talk about and you know, something I realized with Daniel is that.

Jay Schwedelson: Probably the easiest thing that you can do to radically change the sale of your consumer product, the amount of your B2B content, getting downloaded or registered for how many, uh, donations your nonprofit is getting. It is not your actual offer, your creative, your automation stream, your landing page, any of that.

Jay Schwedelson: Believe it or not, it's the simplest thing. It is the title. It is the name of your content piece. It is the name of your offer. It is the name of your sale, and marketers get so confused. Your offer name, your sale name is not your dog. You can change the name of that offer or that content piece. And if you're not testing an AB version of just the title of your offer or sale or donation, push, it is the easiest thing to test and it is the thing that you're probably not doing that could have the biggest impact on, on all of your conversions.

Daniel Murray: I also have a deep feeling that you don't have to marry to like that offer name for everyone. You can personalize names to groups of your audience and still package it the same. Uh, but if, if you're, if you have different sections in your, in your audience and they respond differently to different words or different ways you frame things, it's also good to send emails or.

Daniel Murray: Do paid ads, framing it one way to this with this title and then to another person. Frame it as way. But I do agree the AB testing, smart, we do this all the time as marketers on email subject lines, but we don't, um, if you're on social, you do it on thumbnails. If you're on Instagram, you do trial. If you're doing a trial, reels.

Daniel Murray: But we don't think about like. Should we change it to five XYYZ or the ultimate this playbook or da, da, da. But we, we just say, let's just put it out there. And why is my content not getting viewed? Most of the time, it's the hook. It's the title that, it's not like opening it. So,

Jay Schwedelson: alright, so I wanna give you some quick, simple tests coming outta this that you can try.

Jay Schwedelson: It couldn't be easier. All you need to do on that next whatever push that you're doing could be a content piece, could be a consumer sale, could be a nonprofit push. All you're gonna do is literally change a word. That's it. It's like called your modifier only test. So for example, let's say you were pushing, you know, the HR guide.

Jay Schwedelson: For SMBs, that's your offer title, which is horrendous, generic, and Boring. Change it to quick fix. HR guide for SMBs do a head-to-head test. A version boring Version B version. You stick in that, that modifier. What would you rather download? The HR guide for SMBs or the Quick Fix HR guide for SMBs. And let's say you're promoting, let's say I was trying to push out an email framework.

Jay Schwedelson: This is conversions. It could not be easier to try that.

Daniel Murray: And I also think that in any tests that you ever do in marketing, there should be a only a slight modifier like that. There should be something that is, is testable. You can, you can have two or more modifiers in a test. You can't have a whole sentence changing on both things.

Daniel Murray: That's why I think even in subject lines, the way to. To do it properly is like capitalize one word and one and locate on the other one. Or change a word, the first word or the second word. Put stop, put emoji and test those little things. 'cause if you test the whole subject line, yeah, maybe one will open.

Daniel Murray: But what did you learn from the test that you're never gonna use that subject line again? But it's easy to use something that, okay, caps work better. Emojis work better. Um. These type of wor like action words work better. Um, you need to have some slight modifier, not big modifiers when you're doing AB tests.

Jay Schwedelson: Yeah, great. Easy use, uh, of Chachi Petit or whatever you use. Just go on there and say, this is my offer. What are one to two word phrases, um, that I could use as modifiers for this offer? Title and it'll give you a bunch of 'em. Couldn't be easier. I am telling you this. Have a, a radical impact on, on your actual, um.

Jay Schwedelson: Conversions. Alright, Daniel, back to, uh, the beginning here. Handling, you know, work stress. I started, you're gonna make fun of me. I'm gonna see what you say to this. Uh, I started a few weeks ago, uh, meditating in the morning. Every time, every I wake up in the morning now and before I look at my phone, I do a 10 minute meditation.

Jay Schwedelson: Am I the weirdest, biggest nerd now of all time? What do you think?

Daniel Murray: No, you, that's not the first thing you do though.

Jay Schwedelson: Uh, no. It is. What do I do?

Daniel Murray: Don't you go and go burn your

Jay Schwedelson: eye. Oh, I stare at the sun. I stare at the sun. Yeah.

Daniel Murray: Yeah. And then

Jay Schwedelson: you, yeah, I stare at the sun for a minute. Uh, sometimes the sun's not out yet though because it's so early.

Jay Schwedelson: So I look for something outside and then I do a 10 minute meditation, and then I get going with my day. Is that the latest

Daniel Murray: thing? No, I, I, I used to, I used to work for this company, snack Nation that was like all into that stuff. So for like a year I would do everything. I would like ab tests, like, um, if I go.

Daniel Murray: Vegan versus this and this diet? Like what would happen or, uh, yeah, so it's not, but I, I don't know where else came from. Maybe now you, that you sold. Now it's like,

Jay Schwedelson: because I thought I was gonna drop dead on my dad.

Daniel Murray: No, not even

Jay Schwedelson: meditation. Yeah, yeah. No. Like get, what else can I do? I'm doing all this like, weird stuff.

Jay Schwedelson: I, I want to go get acupuncture. What

Daniel Murray: are you using Headspace, or are you using, what are you

Jay Schwedelson: using? Oh, I'm using, I was using Headspace. I just tried, I'm now using the Peloton app. They have a lot of. They have a lot of Oh, Peloton

Daniel Murray: app's actually really good, even if you don't have a Peloton.

Jay Schwedelson: Yeah, no, I agree.

Jay Schwedelson: I mean, I'm go on the Peloton. I just use the app for meditation. It's great.

Daniel Murray: I know, it's just like, that's the, one of the smartest things they did is they, um, like they just had that, because I remember using the Peloton like. Seven years ago, like my heart

Jay Schwedelson: rate

Daniel Murray: go all through the roof and not,

Jay Schwedelson: oh, I would be like the last one.

Daniel Murray: Well, this has been so informative. Everybody, you guys, I know you love hearing our, our stories of now the, the, the goal today is go do a five minute meditation. It's gonna be good for you. Um, and. Till the next one later.

Jay Schwedelson: Daniel, come on man.

Jay Schwedelson: I gotta get back to work. Get out of there. Alright, while he's still in there, this is Jay. Check out my podcast. Do this, not that for marketers. Each week we share really quick tips on stuff that can improve your marketing, and I hope you give it a try. Oh, here's Daniel. He's finally out.

Daniel Murray: Back from my bathroom break.

Daniel Murray: This is Daniel. Go follow the Marking Millennial podcast, but also tune into this series. It's once a week, the bathroom break. We talk about marketing tips that we just spew out, and it could be anything from email subject line to any marketing tips in the world. We'll talk about it. Just give us a, a shout on LinkedIn and tell us what you want to hear.

Daniel Murray: Peace out

Jay Schwedelson: later.