Where Food Becomes Community

Rethinking Rural Food Security with Rob Rainer

In this episode of The Future Herd, Jesse Hirsh speaks with Rob Rainer about food insecurity from a rural perspective. Rob brings a rare combination of experience: he is the executive director of The Table Community Food Centre in Perth, Ontario, and the reeve of Tay Valley Township. That gives him a view of food insecurity that is both deeply local and structurally political.

The conversation explores why rural food insecurity is often harder to see than urban poverty, even when the need is just as urgent. Food access in rural communities is shaped by transportation, housing, income, isolation, aging, volunteer capacity, and the absence of services that larger cities may take for granted.

Rob explains how organizations like The Table are doing more than distributing food. They are creating spaces of dignity, connection, learning, and mutual support. A meal can become a social lifeline. A food bank can become a community hub. A conversation about hunger can open into a larger discussion about income security, public policy, climate resilience, and what rural communities need to thrive.

This episode continues The Future Herd’s exploration of food insecurity by asking a deeper question: what kind of infrastructure do communities need when food is the visible symptom, but poverty, isolation, and inequality are the underlying conditions?

Guest: Rob Rainer

Episode title: Where Food Becomes Community

Subtitle: Rethinking Rural Food Security with Rob Rainer

Themes: rural food insecurity, community food centres, poverty, dignity, transportation, social isolation, basic income, rural resilience, public policy, food as care.

https://thefutureherd.ca

https://commons.thefutureherd.ca

Hi, I'm Jesse Hirsh.

Welcome to the Future Herd.

Today's episode continues our deep dive into food insecurity.

Except with this episode, we're gonna focus on the rural dynamics.

I mean, let's face it, a lot of the talk around food insecurity focuses

on cities, focuses on the visible manifestations of whether it's food

insecurity, whether it's homelessness, whether it's mental health issues.

It's a lot easier to see that stuff in the city than it is in rural communities.

And that's why I really enjoyed this conversation with Rob Raynor, not

just because it kind of brought it home to my own community, but because

it provides us with a different lens of the food insecurity crisis

that's happening presently in Canada.

And Rob brings a multidisciplinary perspective.

On the one hand, he's leading the local food security organisation in

Perth, in Lanter County, but he's also the reeve of Tay Valley, which is an

adjacent, largely rural community.

And this provides him with a lens to, uh, see the situation, I think, in a distinct

manner compared to some of the louder or more prominent voices in the sector.

And if anything, it helps us as the future herd get a better grasp on the

kind of challenges we face and the types of solutions we should be entertaining.

And where I like to bring policy into every conversation that we

have here on the Future Heard, this was the first time we got into a

specific policy that I suspect is gonna be recurring in future episodes.

A reminder, of course, that we've got a special website,

commons.thefutureheard.ca, where we're trying to map out different perspectives,

uh, different opinions, different solutions when it comes to food security.

And we'd love for you to take a moment while you're listening to this episode

to go over there and press some buttons.

Uh, do us a solid, uh, help us get a sense of what you think the key issues are and

where you stand on them, because that'll certainly influence future programming.

All right, let's go to the show.

I

Rob, welcome to the Future Herd.

Thank you very much, Jess.

It's a pleasure to be here.

Now, I, I like starting with a kind of abstract question

that's meant to really speak to the intuition or gut response of the guests.

So don't be intimidated, just answer with whatever comes to mind.

What does the future mean to you?

Uh, that's a big question for sure.

The what does the future mean to me?

Um, obviously the, the future is unknowable and I think that's the.

The most challenging thing about the future is we just

don't know what's in store.

Um, we can hypothesise, we can speculate, we can dream, but it's completely unknown.

And as you know, from being a human being, you know, from one hour to the

next, one minute to the next, you know, things happen that are, you didn't expect.

So, um, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm hopeful for the future, but

also very deeply concerned about the TRA trajectory we're on.

Yeah.

Right on.

Right on a, a very balanced and, and appropriate response.

And I will confess, I've been really looking forward to our conversation

for a bunch of different reasons, which we'll get to unpack today.

But one of the biggest is we've been looking at food security here

on the future herd and, and really trying to wrap our heads around.

Different elements, uh, that comprise food security here in Canada.

And a couple of episodes ago, I, I was able to speak with Neil Hetherington

from the Toronto, uh, daily Food Bank and it kind of gave the big city

perspective, uh, on food insecurity and kind of the community services there.

And I was, uh, as a consequence, really excited to talk to you, uh,

partly because of your role in kind of smaller town, uh, uh, food banks.

But you also, uh, similarly, uh, have a role in rural, uh, uh, municipal,

uh, governance and services.

So that's kind of a, a context setup.

But of course, like any future herd episode, we do not know the

tangents we will take and the digressions that we will indulge in.

But why don't we start with, you know, the usual origin story, which,

uh, I, I will frame almost equally as vague as my first question.

Uh.

Which is, where did you get your sense of social responsibility from?

and I say this because even though you and I could take for granted,

uh, as you evoked in your intro, that every human should have it.

not everyone does, and I think it gives a sense of character.

Yeah, no, for sure.

It's a great question and I've actually thought about it a lot over my life.

Um, I, I would pin my social awareness, social conscience largely

to my, um, maternal grandparents.

I grew up on the west coast, uh, in North Vancouver.

And my maternal grandparents lived just outside of Ladysmith

on, on Vancouver Island.

And they were blue collar.

They were working class, they were big, big supporters of the new Democrat party.

The campaign for, uh, fellow named, uh, Jim Manley, who was, uh, elected member

of Parliament several times, uh, from that part of, uh, the, the country.

And um, you know, they would just get themselves very worked up and riled up

when I would go and visit them in the summertime about the issues of the day.

Uh, much more so than my own parents would, although my parents

were socially conscious as well.

Um, but in particular my maternal grandparents would have conversations

about the issues of the day and, you know, would express frustration

as to why aren't things being done a certain way and so forth.

So I think I just kind of absorbed that without myself being in any

way active as a teenager, um, on, on any kind of issue that didn't

come until really my early twenties.

But that's kind of where I trace it.

And thankfully, both my parents too were, you know, they, they, they

read the news, they kept up with what was going on in the world.

They would talk about issues at the table.

Um, uh, but yeah, I think that's where, where it began for me.

I had that exposure to other people who talked about things that

were beyond themselves, you know?

Yeah.

on.

And, and you know, as an aside, that's one of the key things, one of

our recurring threads on, on uh, the podcast is looking at youth leadership

and how do we empower young people.

And, and you kind of reminded me that part of it is just inviting them to be part of

the conversation, inviting them, you know, to be there when we get, uh, excited about

policy, when we get excited about issues.

'cause you described a certain kind of an infection.

Certainly applied in my own family case as well, so I could identify that.

Now, I, I, I kind of wanna, uh, because there's so much,

uh, I wanna talk about today.

I think we are gonna be kind of non-linear in jumping around, but I, I came across

you, I learned about you, uh, because of your association with the table, uh,

which is kind of the, uh, community food centre in Perth, Ontario, which is in

eastern Ontario where I happen to live.

And, and that's why I looked it up.

So, uh.

Mm-hmm.

Give us a sense of, of the table, uh, kind of what it does

and perhaps what makes it unique at, at least in the region, if not larger.

'cause it does seem to have a character, uh, that distinguishes it from some of the

other organisations active in the sector.

Yeah, for sure.

So the Table Community Food Centre was initially or was founded as the, uh,

Perth and District Food Bank in 1998.

Um, and it, it worked as a food bank, um, for, I guess.

What, 15 or so years, and then around 2012, um, and I, I've only

been involved for less than a year with the organisation, but go around

2011, 2012, people involved at that time, uh, learned about this concept

of a community food centre, which was pioneered, uh, out of Toronto.

Um, and, uh, the food bank transitioned to become a community food centre in 2012.

And the idea is, so we still run it, we still have a food bank.

It's one of our, it's our biggest programme, but we have other programmes

as well where food is at, at the core, food that brings people together.

Like for example, our community meals programme, which is

Monday, Wednesday, Friday.

Dinners free, you know, free to anybody in the community

can just come and share a meal.

We have a community garden programme.

We have a children and youth programme.

Um, uh, we have what we call an advocacy programme, which.

Uh, where, uh, our staff will provide assistance to people if

they need help accessing some government programmes and so forth.

Often those people are coming into the food bank and then they

learn that, oh, the table can do these other things for me as well.

And so we try to give them some help.

We have a satellite programme in Smiths Falls called the Falls Food Hub Programme,

which is, um, we're just closing in on finalising renovations to a space there.

And once that space is ready, which should be in late May or uh, early

June, um, we will start offering a broader array of programmes in

Smith Falls that are consistent with the community food centre concept.

There's 18 community food centres in Canada.

We were the second to be established.

Most of them are in urban settings, uh, big city settings,

but there's, uh, several that are in rural communities like ours.

And then there's four of the 18 are indigenous, uh, led.

And situated within indigenous communities in different parts of the country.

And all of it is networked by a group called Right to Food, which

is the group that started this whole concept of a community food centre.

And, and, and a big part of it is to, um, work towards empowering

people, building community, building resilience with food at the core.

Uh, but it's not, it's not strictly just a food bank where we're just,

you know, temporarily alleviating.

Food insecurity.

We're trying to help help people in a more sustained way so that they can

hopefully, eventually, um, not be food insecure, uh, and have perhaps not

only skills and knowledge that they didn't have before to do with food

or other things, but they've actually built more of a sense of community.

Right on.

And, and I, I, I think I wanna unpack a little bit about that network, but at the

same time, you kind of provide me with an opportunity, you know, you pointed out

that you've, your relationship, uh, with the tables relatively short, even though

I, I imagine you've been aware of their.

Activities, you know, in the area for some

Oh yes.

It strikes me that affords you a unique perspective.

I, I, I love talking to leaders, uh, about their perspective, a kind of

about what they see as an affordance of their position, but fresh eyes.

Is it of itself often a very valuable perspective?

So I'm, I'm kind of curious, were, were there things that you

didn't expect that surprised you?

And you know, were there elements in terms of coming in as an

interim executive director that maybe surprised the organisation?

Right.

And, and I say this 'cause it strikes me, that's when there's an

opportunity to see things differently.

Yeah, no, for sure.

I'm, I'm actually a big believer in healthy organisational turnover.

Um, particularly at the top, like every number of years.

You know, bring in someone new because yeah, they can lend.

Those fresh set of eyes and maybe bring in some, some practises

that hadn't been done before.

So I think there's great value in that.

Um, I'm not sure if I've, although I didn't know all, I didn't know very

much about the inner workings of the table prior to coming on in June.

I, I've been around the, the not-for-profit and charitable

sector for some time.

So kind of the nature of not-for-profit and charitable work

was not at all unfamiliar to me.

Certainly the work itself has been very challenging, just given

the external demands, um, maybe even the external expectations on

a, on an organisation like this.

'cause we're trying to do so much where we have, we have seven or eight, you

know, programmes and we have 15, 16 staff.

But we're situated within a relatively small rural community of a, sort

of a regional population of 20,000.

And within that context, there's perhaps only so much sort of

money that we can raise to support all that we're trying to do.

So it's, it's the, the magnitude of the challenge of the work has been.

Not a surprise, but it's been a reality for sure.

Um, all of our staff do the best they can with the resources they have.

We're currently working out of the same building where we've

been for, uh, 14 years now.

Um, but the building itself has physical constraints in, like, for example, it'd

be nice to have more space for a larger food bank, more space for more programming

that we can do with children and youth.

Uh, a bigger dining hall that we can serve more community meals and so forth.

So, uh, that's very much on the radar of the board.

Uh, they're very much aware that our current building has these

sort of operational constraints.

Um, but what's been, I guess maybe a bit of a surprise is just the amount of

community support there is for the table.

Um, it comes from so many different directions, from small businesses

that are making contributions, people who are doing food drives.

Um.

People who've become monthly donors.

Uh, it, it's, it's really, it's heartening.

We, we kinda see that virtually every day.

Uh, this expression of, of, uh, support and solidarity

for, for the table's mission.

And, uh, and that's great.

And, and hopefully other not-for-profits in our region

are also seeing the same thing.

I'm sure they are.

Big brothers, big sisters, uh, yak the Youth Action Committee group in Perth.

I'm sure they see very similar things and maybe in a smaller rural community perhaps

that that kind of thing is a bit more visible because people know each other.

There's so many connections, so many of us on staff, whereas volunteers also

know each other from other involvements that we're, we're, we're engaged in.

So, you know, it's nice.

I've lived about half my life in small and rural communities and

the other half in, in urban areas, and I much prefer the small rural.

Community because of the, the opportunity to meet so many people, get to know

them and hopefully collaborate.

Well, and let's explore that kind of dynamic a little

in, in the context of both that challenge and opportunity frame.

Because of the reason as a podcast, we decided to focus in particular on food

security and conversely food insecurity, we, we are anticipating these things

kind of getting worse before they get better, you know, because of the nature

of what's happening in the world.

And to your point, in an urban environment, while on the one hand it

might seem like the access to fundraising, the access to supports might be more

ready, there is the disconnect that is perhaps contrasted in the smaller

community where you can feel those.

Pain points, but you can also see the community and touch the community

and kind of rally the community.

So give me a sense of how, as an organisation, on the one point, like

I think you articulate your point of being able to expand the food bank

as a very tangible kind of challenge that you wrap your head around.

How, how do you think about moving forward, whether in the short

term or the long term of, of making, not so much do with less.

But rising to the challenges that the community faces with the kind of, you

know, unique constraints, but also unique resources that are available

in, in a community like Perth.

Yeah.

Um, very good question.

Um, in a very tangible sense, our annual budget is around 1.1 million.

Um, it's grown.

That's almost double from what it was about 10 or 11 years ago.

Um.

In my view, we need to see it get up to 1.5 to 1.6 million.

So it's a question of how we can do that.

Where can we find those resources?

Uh, including not being so dependent on grants, um, from, you know,

foundations or whatever, uh, because that's so hit, hit or miss.

And just even the past 10 days or so, we've received rejections

on several grant applications.

So how can we build a, a more sustainable.

Ideally largely regional base of support that's gonna be with us, uh, and allow

us to offer that much more in services.

I, I would love to see us undertake a capital campaign to, uh, renovate, uh, and

perhaps expand our building 'cause there is potential for space expansion, um, and

undertake renovations so we have a more functional building for our staff, for our

volunteers, for the people who are coming and using our programmes and services.

So, um, we are, uh, in the midst of a strategic planning process and at

this point in time, it looks like the board isn't gonna be quite ready to

commit to a capital campaign per se.

Maybe that'll come in about a year's time or so, 'cause we have some

other sort of foundational things that we're, we're still working on.

Um, but you know, a lot of this does come down to having enough money to

be able to do what needs to be done.

So I'm hoping over the next, you know, one, two or three

years we can move towards.

Being ready to undertake a capital campaign and then see that through.

And then we would, we have, we, we'd have a better space to serve

the, the regional community.

We have people coming from, you know, from Smiths Falls, from Lanner, Highlands,

Drummond, north Elmley, probably some people more in the eastern end of Lanor

County as well, uh, who are coming to the table for programmes and services.

And we, you know, we wanna be able to serve as many people as, as possible.

And I, I, yeah, I do think.

Given what's going on in the world today, given the trajectories that impact food

security, unfortunately I see things getting more difficult, uh, not less,

so we have to try to be ready for that.

Well, and, and to validate what you're saying, certainly there

there is an obvious need, uh, uh, for a capital campaign for the kind of resources

that would allow you to expand your facilities and, and serve the community.

But of course, the other, uh, kind of element of infrastructure in

the social sector, in a social enterprise is volunteer labour

and the non-monetary dynamic.

I'm curious how you guys approach that and, and, and I don't

exclusively just mean voluntary, I mean non-monetary in the sense that

there is a wide range of non-monetary contributions and elements that go

into facilitating community services.

So I, I'd love to hear how you guys think about that and how you approach it.

Yeah, well, we simply couldn't exist without our volunteer base.

We have a sizable number of people who volunteer, uh, in the food bank or in our

community meals programme in our garden at the Falls Food Hub in Smiths Falls.

Um, I don't have a precise figure, but we're somewhere in the range of

150 volunteers at any given time.

Uh, and we have lots of people who express interest in volunteering.

Then we try to.

Find a, a good fit for their time, their skills, their

interest in what we actually need.

Um, so yeah, again, without, without that base of volunteers, we, we simply

couldn't be doing anywhere close to what we're, what we're doing.

Um, and what's kind of neat for me, uh, has been observing how the volunteers

themselves benefit from that involvement.

Um, I think without question, for some of them it's an intensely

positive social time in their week.

Uh, they look forward to coming into the table.

They see others who are volunteering and the staff, and there's this camaraderie.

Um, it can work really, really well.

And so yeah, volunteers are giving, but they're also receiving a lot.

And I've heard those kind of comments directly from some volunteers.

Uh, it's, for some of 'em, I think it's actually the table's actually have kind of

a linchpin in their lives at, at present.

It gives them so much meaning.

Um.

We have a volunteer, a coordinator, well, it's one of the hats she wears.

She wears several hats, but her main hat is, is volunteer coordination.

So her name is Hailey, and she receives the expressions of

interest from people to volunteer.

And then we go through a, a process why by which we determine what, what might

be the best fit for that individual.

Um, and then once they're aboard, you know, try to make sure they

have sufficient orientation and training to undertake whatever

it is, uh, they may end up doing.

Now when I spoke with, uh, Neil from the Toronto Food Bank,

you know, a around the same subject, he, he really emphasised culture.

And, and I think that's partly a consequence of having a much

larger, uh, uh, core of volunteers because their, their infrastructure

and their operations are larger.

I think it's also due to the kind of.

Urban anonymity that a city like Toronto fosters compared

to the more local familiarity.

Not to mention that the table kind of has, as part of its

programmes a cultural dynamic.

nonetheless, I, I'm curious in the way that Toronto really

elevates as an explicit element of the volunteer strategy.

Is it implicit?

In the smaller community, like is it something that people are just

naturally part of or is it also something that again, you kind of

emphasise as part of that larger notion of belonging and, and, and cohesion.

Yeah.

Um.

I would say through the community food centre model, the intent is to establish

and maintain kind of a culture of solidarity with our fellow citizens.

So we don't call people coming to the food bank, for example,

or using other programmes.

We don't call them clients or whatever we call them participants.

Um, because they're choosing to come and we're, you know, we're able to serve.

But it's, it's in an atmosphere of solidarity.

'cause you know, we all recognise that, you know, that, you know, we,

we could be the ones also coming to a food bank and making use of those

services because we're also vulnerable.

We're also vulnerable.

And, uh, everyone has a story as to how it is that they came to, uh, an

organisation like the table, uh, for help.

Um, uh, or for that sense of, of community, uh, which one of the

great things about our community meals programme, because, because

those meals are open to anybody.

Um, we do see people coming in who, just like the, the ambiance of the dining hall,

that free meal, very nutritious, very tasty, uh, meals prepared by our chef and,

and their assistants and the volunteers.

Uh, and they just sit down with their fellow citizens and, and have a nice time.

Um, so that I think that the culture we're really trying to, uh, foster is one of

total respect, uh, non-judgmental, um, uh, solidarity, uh, and also fun, you know,

trying to make sure that having everyone's having kind of a good time in the process.

There's, there is quite a bit of laughter going on, uh, during a

community meal and the preparation for the community meal, the, you

know, the atmosphere and the dining hall is really, really, really nice.

Um.

And, uh, yeah, these are kind of the intangible aspects of being involved

or, or, uh, witnessing on the inside what it's like to, to, uh, see how

a community food centre operates, uh, as perhaps opposed to some other

types of frontline organisations.

Well, and, and let's use that as an opportunity to kind of situate

th those programmes or those services within y your larger perspective that

you have, you know, a, as a public servant, as a politician, in that

you've been the reve of Te Valley.

And for city people listening, Reeve is kind of the rural e equivalent of a mayor.

I, I'm curious, uh.

How that gives you a kind of bigger picture of the needs of the community.

'cause we've been talking about kind of the food security needs, but the

flip side to this is many of your constituents are farmers are involved in

agriculture in part because that's the nature of being in a rural municipality.

So I'd love to hear your thoughts on, on those connections and, and

how they fit into the larger picture that, that you've been afforded.

Yeah.

Uh, again, very good question.

Yeah.

So, te Valley Township, uh, just west of Perth, um, is of

course a rural municipality.

About 550 square kilometres, year-round population of about 6,000 people.

Um, has a, a rich history, uh, of agriculture.

Um.

Going back a couple hundred years, um, many active working

farms, largely smaller scale.

Uh, we have a number of organic farmers, um, and some of those

farmers or farms, you know, directly support the table, sometimes through

donations of produce and so forth.

And then there's other farms, uh, around the table, like in Drummond,

north Elmley, and further afield that also support the table with.

Uh, either donations or, uh, lower prices on, on, on produce, for example.

Um, as a municipal politician, um, I've certainly seen with the gradation

of the population, play Valley is actually made up of significant

portion of our population is, is older.

Um, we're above the provincial average in terms of the number or percentage

of people who are 55 years and older.

And, uh, many of those folks do come from longstanding families,

farming families and so forth.

Um, so we actually don't have a sizable, younger demographic in TA

Valley, and that's quite common in a lot of rural communities now as well.

Um, we certainly have people living in low income.

Um, one of the neat crossovers for me as Reeve, uh, has been our

Neighbourly community hall, which is one of our two uni municipally owned.

Uh, community halls.

It's our main one in the Hamlet of Neighbourly.

And for the past, uh, couple of years, the township has, uh,

received some grant money to put on a free community meal once a month.

Um, it's on the third Thursday of the month.

It's a lunch.

Um, different caterers, uh, cater a given event.

We've just now escalated that to two free meals a month.

So it's very compatible with our community meals programme at the

table, which is Monday, Wednesday, Friday, uh, dinners, and our Falls

Food hub programme in Smith Falls.

It's a Monday lunch and soon, we think also a Tuesday dinner.

So now we have twice a month, Thursday lunches at the Maly Hall,

and sometimes the table is the caterer supporting that, particularly

the the holiday meal in November.

Um, and I've seen also at those community meals that people come from all

different backgrounds and walks of life.

And, and I've heard directly from some people that for them it's kinda like

the highlight of their day or their week because they don't get out very much.

They don't have a lot of money, they don't travel around.

They're a little bit isolated, which can be an issue in any community.

Uh, but it can be a, a big issue in rural communities or rural

isolation, particularly of seniors.

So we see a lot of those folks coming to the community meal.

At the Maity Hall and there is this direct tie between that programme and the table.

So it's been, it is been nice to sort of bear witness to all of that.

Well, and, and if,

yep.

anything, it kind of speaks to a larger social purpose

that's being served in terms of your point about social isolation, but

also the ageing demographics that I think are a challenge for a lot.

municipalities.

It's interesting to learn that Tay Valley is kind of, you know, uh, even more so in

terms of facing that demographic pressure.

I'd love

Yep.

to kind of elaborate on, on the role that these types of meals

play, but on a larger picture, the role that this kind of programming.

Could and should play.

And this is where we get to transition to the, not so much the utopian part of

the episode, but the hopeful part of the episode where we get to entertain having

more resources than we currently have.

You know, what could that entail?

Like if we were to be serious about, you know, both social isolation as,

as a growing concern, I think for all ages, but in particular how it.

Compounds an ageing community, how it makes it even more difficult to not

just deal with the mental health issues, mobilise the volunteer base, you know,

foster the, the sense of solidarity.

So let's dig deeper here, both in terms of the role that's being played, but the

role that could be played, uh, you know, if we had access to, to greater resources.

Yeah, I mean, I was in, um, St. John Catholic

High School yesterday morning.

I gave talks to two different classes on the, on the subject of basic

income and um, uh, you know, which was interesting in and of itself, but.

Um, kind of overlapping.

That was this issue of, uh, young, uh, students, uh, high school students,

uh, not showing up for class.

And, um, uh, I made reference to one of the teachers I was talking to, to a great

article in the Toronto Star last week.

My young, I think she's grade 11 student somewhere in Ontario.

She wrote a piece about why is it that, that, uh, young, uh, that

students aren't showing up for class.

And she made reference to the pandemic.

And that during the pandemic, you know, education had to be at home.

And so students got kind of used to that.

And, uh, now a lot of, uh, instruction remains online,

which they can do from home.

And I, I learned yesterday that apparently the province has, uh,

been encouraging students to take a certain percentage of their.

Education at home online?

Well, of course, the more we spend on our screens at home isolated from

other people, the more we're actually not connected to other people.

And the, the, you know, the, the in person, uh, value of connecting with

people in person can't be stressed enough.

Just like we are intensely social creatures.

We depend on interaction with each other in person to build connections.

I attended a square dance at the Maly Hall last, last Saturday night.

It was a lot of fun.

Um, first one I've been to in like 40 plus years, it was packed.

It was a fundraiser for the table and oh my God, just so much fun.

It was young.

There were little kids, there were older people.

Everything in between, everyone having a great time.

Well, that is so rare now to find those kinds of opportunities.

So if, you know, if I'm, if I'm head of a government like Ontario or.

Or the federal government, they should be looking at what they can do to

promote social connection in person.

You know, we've heard of the crisis of, you know, the crisis of loneliness

in our society and all the rest of it.

Well, a lot of that has to do with the, the rise of, of the digital era

and people being able to plug into their devices and not interacting

with their, their fellow human beings.

You go to an airport, for example, and virtually everybody's on the

phone, and I've been guilty of it too.

Um, I can remember a time when, you know, you went to the airport, there

were no, there were no devices.

You sat down, maybe you talked to the people, the stranger next to you.

Yeah, we need much more social connection and the table helps in that regard.

But yeah, governments should be seriously looking at, uh, social

isolation and what they can do to help counter, uh, counter that.

Uh, although you did, uh, just now evoke another contributing

factor, which is economics, that, uh, certainly if I think back to my youth,

uh, in terms of the places I could go without spending money or without having

to pay to enter, to where we are now, where there aren't many what people.

Call third spaces, or there aren't many places where you can go and not have

to spend money and just be, then your point about the stop, uh, uh, the table

rather being involved in a square dance fundraiser, is there an opportunity for

an organisation like the Table, which.

Already creating third spaces in terms of your facilities, but you know, playing

a role in facilitating these types of events or these types of environments.

In no small part because food is a social catalyst, right?

It is a social enabler, but also 'cause no one else is doing it.

And it's kind of an opportunity here for leadership in kind

of a moment of social crisis.

Although I could be getting too ambitious.

Yeah, I mean, I think we want to do as much as we can as an organisation

at the table to promote social connection.

Um, thet Valley Township, beyond the comm, the meals activity, uh,

the Maity Hall, we, we, we raised.

Uh, we secured some grants to kind of provide some, uh, upgrading of

the hall, like, for example, making it, um, accessible, physically

accessible, which it wasn't before.

Um, and then some other upgrades just to the structure itself.

And we've seen a huge, um, increase in the amount of use of the hall.

For many years it wasn't being used very much at all, but now with,

um, some grant money supporting all kinds of activity going on there Now.

Tai Chi classes, uh, yoga classes.

Um, just, you know, just concerts and events and so forth.

Um, uh, I'm, I'm a member of the TE Valley Community Choir.

We, we do our rehearsals there.

We do our spring and, and fall performances there.

Um, you know, it's, it, the, the infrastructure we have community

halls I think are really, really important part of public infrastructure

or community infrastructure.

Uh, so government should be looking to ensure that those

halls are properly resourced and, um, you know, the volunteers are

out there to organise activity.

Um, uh, so government just needs to provide a bit of baseline

assurance that there's gonna be some funding to allow that to happen.

But this whole digital stuff is really weighing on me because

it seems we're getting sucked further and further into it.

And now with ai.

Uh, potentially sucking us further into, if you will, almost dependence on

the technology to be able to function.

Um, it's a huge concern 'cause I think with every step we take further

into the digital world, we become that much more separated from, if

you will, the human experience.

Well, and as an aside, I think that that dependence has kind of

already been established on a connectivity level, which those of us in rural

communities, we felt that pain point for quite some time in, in terms of not

having access to the same type of high speed connectivity that cities have.

But it, it kind of, you know, before we get, uh, deeper into

the policy conversation, which I'm, I'm absolutely excited to do.

You, you, you.

You just inspired me.

Another interesting urban rural contrast, which I'd love to throw at you, where

one of the perhaps advantages of an urban environment is poverty is visible, right?

It's, it's easier to see people who are experiencing, you know, homelessness.

It's easier to see people who are experiencing addiction,

so it's, it's a little.

Easier for civic leaders and, and, and people involved in

social enterprises to quantify the problem and try to address it.

But it strikes me in a rural community that may not exist, there may not

be the same level of visibility.

In the sense that one of the consequences of social isolation could

be invisibility, could be that people withdraw into their rural property,

withdraw into loneliness or addiction or poverty, and you might not know.

How do you, both as a community leader, but also vis-a-vis, the responsibilities

of the table in trying to help the community, how do you compensate for that?

How, how do you.

Try to surface where some of the need has to go or help identify the problems

that could be harder to identify as a, as a result of the different context.

Yeah, you're asking great, great questions here.

Um, and it is kind of a call.

Complex one.

Uh, I think it is true definitely that in rural communities, um,

poverty as we might imagine to be, may, may not be quite as visible.

Um, uh, there are also people who in rural areas, actually live quite well on, on

comparatively low income because they, you know, they, they, they've got certain

skills or knowledge that allows 'em maybe to grow a lot of their own food or.

Do a lot of their own maintenance, and so they actually don't

need, uh, a higher income.

Whereas in urban areas, I, that may not be quite as true, I mean, may

be a little more income dependent.

Um, I think, uh, for people to understand the linkages between low

low

income and poor health outcomes, for example, is, is important.

In other words.

There is a baseline of income that, uh, everyone really should have

to make sure that, um, they, they can live, uh, uh, a decent life.

Doesn't mean that they're going off to Disneyland, you know, once

a year or whatever, but at least that they can afford, if they're

purchasing food, they can afford food of sufficient quality and quantity.

They have a, uh, they have a, a solid roof over themselves.

They have.

Shelter that's comfortable.

Uh, they can afford basic clothing and other basic needs.

So, um, to the extent that people, some people don't have that reality

and are suffering the consequence of stress or hunger or any number of

other manifestations of, uh, poverty, there is a direct correlation between

those situations and people's health outcomes immediately and later in life.

So, uh, you know, I think it's very important that our senior governments, by

which I mean our provincial and federal governments primarily, uh, recognise

the strong, powerful correlation between low, low income, say involuntary low

income, and, uh, negative outcomes, both health and other outcomes, uh, for

individuals and for the greater society.

Um, which is, you know, why I'm such a big supporter of the concept of basic

income and have been for quite some time.

I believe it fundamentally, everyone should have access to a minimum

income floor, uh, whether you live in the rural area or the urban area

and, uh, in a big, rich country like Canada, I know we can afford that.

It comes down to sort of political will and also public support.

Um.

We do live in, we do live in a dominant culture, I think, where people have the

idea that the way you stabilise your life is through, through work and employment.

But that's such a flawed concept given what we know of all the ways in

which stable employment or the pursuit of stable employment can be, can be

challenged or interrupted, um, due to, uh, circumstances that people may be facing.

So,

And, and

yeah.

I'll, I'll even, I'll even go further and indulge in the

privilege of being a podcast host where part of the mandate of being a podcast

host is introducing personal anecdote.

I only had one job my entire life.

It was when I was 17, uh, washing hair.

In a salon before people got their hair cut.

It lasted about 11 months before I quit, and I've never been able to get a job

since, for a bunch of reasons that tie to disability and health and intellect.

So for, for us to have a society that says work is a central component

of one's status or dignity, then we have to acknowledge that the vast

majority of people are not allowed to do the work that they want to do.

And that's a problem.

w what strikes me as appealing about universal basic income is

not the concept that it discourages people from work quite the opposite.

That it actually allows them to focus on the work that they should be

doing and that they would therefore be a valuable member of society.

'cause they.

Don't need to get into the precarity that is contemporary employment.

a a bit of a, uh, digression on my part, but I, I say this to say, y you introduced

to me of this particular policy issue that I haven't heard other proponents.

Do so specifically or explicitly, which is the idea that farmers in particular should

have a kind of universal basic income.

And while on the one hand I agree, everybody should have a universal

basic income, I think for city people, you know, there's a different

context in which they imagine it yet.

People who are not familiar with agriculture are not able to realise

that it is a very subsidised sector.

I mean, already almost everyone in agriculture is benefiting

from some subsidy somewhere.

It strikes me that it would be easy if, to your point, we just created that

bottom, that floor that said, if you're gonna be in the job of helping people

make their food, we want to give you a base income so you can focus on the food.

And not have a day job, not have three day job, as all farmers in Eastern

Ontario have, if they're lucky.

I would love for you, and, and you can go wherever you want with the universal

basic income idea, but I would love for you to situate it in the role

that it could play with agriculture.

'cause again, I haven't heard a lot of the proponents of the idea do so, and

I think it's a very powerful framing that that speaks to the, that we're

not negating work, we're enabling.

Work

Yep.

No, a absolutely.

I, um, fully, uh.

Agree that, uh, we're a decent level of basic income available to, um,

adults, uh, working age adults.

The vast majority would use that to, uh, make choices that are better

for themselves, including the work that they most would like to pursue.

Um, I'll come back to agriculture in a moment, but I just wanted to

sort of flag that in Ireland, uh, the, the government of Ireland has,

has just this month made permanent.

A basic income programme to support artists.

Um, they did a three year pilot project involving 2000 professional

artists who would benefit from a little more income security.

And, uh, the pilot was so successful.

The government is now gonna make it a permanent programme again to benefit up to

2000 artists around the country who are.

Professional, but for whatever reason, their income is not quite there, that

they can totally make a go of it.

Um, and the, and Ireland has done that, recognising the benefit of the arts

to the, to the larger society and that that's well established, you know,

the, uh, the value that, uh, musicians and painters and sculptors, you know,

the immense value they add to our enj, our, our enjoyment of, of life.

So to speak.

So that's really interesting to me.

But on agriculture, my understanding is the National Farmers Union in Canada has

come out in favour of a basic income, and I think there's very, very strong

argument, uh, for, uh, introducing a basic income, perhaps specifically to

support, uh, those engaging in farming and perhaps even more specifically,

those who are a bit younger who may find it difficult to enter into farming if

they don't have any background in it.

But I have an intense interest in it.

Um, I know there's issues around access to land and, you know,

resources and all the rest of it.

Um, but even just having a bit of a, a stable baseline.

So if you want to begin to become a producer, um, you've got at least that

floor of income that you know is gonna be there for you, i I, if you need it.

Um, so I think there's a, there's a lot, a lot there.

Uh, going a little bit further.

When I think about food insecurity today and where it may be going in

the future, man, we're gonna need, we're gonna need a huge cohort of

people who not only know, know how to produce food, but know how to produce

food in a steadily warming climate.

Um, are keeping up with the science of.

Yeah.

Crop, you know, crop production in a warming climate and what's

really gonna work when the temperatures is a little higher than it is today.

There, there's obviously a lot coming at us in the near future that I think

farmers are gonna have to contend with and probably are contending with right now.

So again, stability of of a baseline income makes a whole lot of sense to me.

Um, I do think that, uh, that this idea of a, of a universal basic income could

be extended across the general population, but of all the many sectors to think

about what could be more important than, than the sector involved in.

Hopefully assuring that we have a food supply that we

can depend upon in the future.

Absolutely.

And, and you inspired, uh, uh, an even more challenging question

than I'm gonna throw at you.

And, and in acknowledging that it is challenging, I, I give you leeway to dodge

or, or elaborate as you see fit, could, could the, the concept of a basic income.

Also combine with the demographic challenge, uh,

that we talked about earlier.

And, and I say this because you, you brought out the reality that young people

who want to get into farming, if they're not born into it, a very daunting task.

And it's not just the cost of land, it's, it's even access

to knowledge and expertise.

Sure.

I would love to hear you riff and again, you can bail

if you feel it's too challenging.

I would love to hear you riff as a a, a a reve, even though you're

not running for reelection, maybe that gives you more freedom.

What would be strategies to get young people to move to TA Valley?

Right.

And again, thinking about if basic income was part of it, right?

So they didn't have to necessarily worry about finding direct and local employment.

But have you thought about ways to address the, the ageing challenge that a

lot of rural communities face, and what are some of the means, uh, especially

now as we blue sky around thoughts of basic income we could get younger people

saying, Hey, I would like to have a, a more rural or a more small town lifestyle.

Yeah, I mean, that's a huge question.

It's obviously, it's a huge challenge.

There's so many components to it, and we've had discussions

at this, at the municipal level.

Um, you know, the lack of certain infrastructure, I'll, I'll point to,

for example, rural transportation.

There's virtually no tra, you know, public transportation that people can.

Make use of, uh, forgetting around you pretty much are car dependent.

And if you're not car dependent, you're probably living in the town of

Perth or the town of Smiths Falls and you're walking kind of everywhere.

Um, I know Carl Place has a, has a bus service.

Um, I think Smith.

Yeah, Smith Falls does as well, but Perth does not.

Um, so just, uh, you know, Lanor County, 'cause I sit on Lanor County

Council, uh, is looking at, uh, rural transportation and, and some options for,

uh, introducing more, um, capacity there.

But that's the kind of thing if you're a young, if you're a young and, uh, single

adult in Ottawa or Toronto, or perhaps a couple, maybe you've got a young family

that you'd like to move out of the city and move into a rural area like ours.

Um, man, there's a lot, there's a lot to consider.

Um, you know, we've only got, we've got one El elementary school, uh,

relatively small population that's been decreasing over the years.

Um, the high schools are two high schools in Perth, uh, te Valley.

In fact, we don't even have a grocery store in TE Valley.

It, it's all, it's kind of.

And there's, there's no, there's no physical centre to T Valley.

There's no, there's no gas station in T Valley.

Uh, there's virtually almost nothing in terms of infrastructure.

So, uh, uh, you know, first thing I would say that probably if young

people are moving into a place like T Valley, they're gonna have to have a

vehicle for getting themselves around.

Uh, uh, but then there, of course, just the.

The spiralling costs of housing, the spiralling costs of land,

um, that sort of macroeconomic pressure on all kinds of households

today, it's, it is super daunting.

A lot of it points for me.

A lot of it points to the.

What has happened over a number of decades where we've seen ever rising inequality

between those who are increasingly pulling away from virtually everybody else.

We hear about the 1%, but it's also kind of the top 10 to 20% of

the, of the population in Canada continues to pull away economically,

financially away from everybody else.

And, uh, governments have to take a serious look at addressing.

Steep income and wealth inequality so that we can hopefully have something

of a rebalancing of, of resources, uh, because, you know, money represents,

for me, money represents energy.

The more money you have, the more energy you are going to be able to make use of.

If you are in low income, you kind of are living a low energy.

Uh, life and, um, to the extent we can maybe have a better, more equity

between higher income individuals, higher income households, and lower

income, if we had stronger equity, I think you'd see more robust, uh,

communities, both rural and urban.

And I can point to the Nordic countries are kind of famous for this.

They have, there's greater equality within the Nordic countries and year

after year, they not only rank as among the most socially and economically

vibrant societies on the planet.

But Finland, as you may know, for seven or eight years, has also

been voted or has ranked as the, the happiest country in the world.

And I think a lot of it has to do with they simply have greater

social cohesion as a result of their governments being willing to, uh, uh,

have, have greater equality, uh, in on the income and the wealth spectrum.

So I,

Yeah.

I've been trying to do what I do here on the podcast, which is

ratchet up the difficulty or complexity of the question as I go along, you

know, kind of as a test, uh, uh, to the guest of, of their leadership chops.

And, and you've been doing absolutely a, a stellar, uh, so far.

you know, now that we're running out of time on, on your last point, you know, let

me throw a curve ball at you, which, which again, you're, you're welcome to Dodge,

but y you have, uh, run both successfully and unsuccessfully for political

office, uh, uh, here in the region.

I, I don't know if you intend to run, say, provincially or

federally again in the future.

loved what you just said.

I, I, I thought you really kind of described the problem, but also described

a, an excellent way for us to approach it.

So my million dollar question is this.

How do you communicate that to a diverse constituency?

How do you communicate that to a, a a, a constituency that often is not

that interested in politics except.

Maybe when it comes to cast a ballot, know, how, how do we shift people's

perceptions of what is possible?

Uh, given that, I, I, I kind of find in urban environments, political debates

are more volatile, so it's easier to kind of get people interested in the issues.

Just out of a drama perspective versus, I kind of find in rural

writings, there's a little bit of the, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

And it's hard to get people to realise it's broke.

I'd love to hear your thoughts

Mm-hmm.

what it takes to communicate what you just brilliantly articulated,

but you know, needs to be translated a little to reach a diverse constituency.

Yeah.

And yeah, again, very good question.

Um, certainly I found in my political, uh, involvement, uh, you know, you

encounter a, a full range of people.

Some, some who are intensely interested in these kinds of topics and are

deep thinkers and have put incredible thought towards a lot of the kinds

of things we're talking about.

And it's, it's wonderful to engage with those folks and then others who, you know,

maybe have public interests, but they're relatively narrow public interests, um,

and, uh, for whatever reason aren't, aren't maybe gonna go there intellectually

around some of these kinds of topics.

Um, and that, you know, the, the reality is within any government, be it municipal,

provincial, and federal, there's gonna be kind of a mix of people who have

that sort of, those sort of aptitudes, which can be frustrating because so

much of what I think needs to be done needs to be done at the systemic level.

It needs to be done through very thoughtful policy that also takes the

long view, recognising that the changes that we need to make aren't gonna happen

in a day, a week, a month, or a year.

They're gonna take.

You know, 10, 20, 40, 50 years to fully kind of unfold.

Um, so it's, it is really challenging.

Um, uh, I found as a municipal politician, you know, I get frustrated with sort

of, you know, issues that are pretty minute, uh, pretty almost petty, uh,

yet they require my time or someone's time, and we, you know, we have to

focus on those things while at the same time, bigger, bigger issues that

are also affecting the population.

We're not spending any time on those at all.

Um, and this is just a, a function of, of, of modern life.

Uh, it's hard to get really ahead of the curve on some of these issues.

And that's why we hear this, this phrase of, um, uh, sort of the in,

uh, what's the, what's the phrase I wanna say intractable problem.

But, uh, you know, it, it, you know, like, like the climate crisis

is so, so upon us now and will be even more so in the future.

But it's somewhat of an intractable problem to solve 'cause it's so

multifaceted, so long term and short term.

There's so many moving parts to it and you know, it's hard to wrap

your head, head around it as a citizen, let alone as a politician.

Same goes with ai.

Now, I think AI is a, has all this apparent promise, but also a

huge amount of, of apparent peril.

And, um, it's hard to wrap your head around how do we get ahead of

the curve on an issue like that.

Um.

I think at the end of the day, as a politician, as a citizen, I've come

to accept that uh, maybe the best that can be done are relatively small,

relatively incremental improvements.

Um, but if we can seed, if we can seed certain ideas in the minds of other

people, particularly younger people who might be the leaders of tomorrow, that's

also something of a legacy we can leave.

And, uh.

And, and I, I'm, I am confident that those young, some young, some of the

people who are much younger than I am will emerge in time and become

some of those thought leaders and hopefully action leaders in the future.

Right on.

Fantastic answer.

Uh, uh, that leads us to the last two questions that I

end the, the interview on.

The second last is, is there anything that we haven't talked about today

that, uh, you think we should touch upon before we conclude?

I. Um, I mean, I know you're, the title of the podcast is The Future

Herd and, you know, you're a farmer and, and you're, you're heavily, uh, engaged

in, in, in agriculture and so forth.

I mean, just back to the climate crisis, something that, you know, I,

I have, I found very troubling reading about recently, um, has been this, uh,

apparent, uh, weakening or potential weakening of the North Atlantic

Oceanic circulation system, which has happened before in the geologic past.

If it happens again,

We

it would result in a, a tremendous, basically like

a little mini ice age, uh, in the northern parts of the Northern

Hemisphere, including parts of Europe.

And, uh, that's the kind of thing like I, I, I read about that.

It's kinda scary, uh, who's talking about it.

You know, you open up the news and, uh, they're talking about

the latest fashion of whatever, um, you know, which is fine too.

You know, we all need to be able to take our minds to.

To those kinds of things.

But, um, in terms of food security, I, I'm, I'm really quite, uh, I'm very

interested in what, what the researchers or what, what research is showing with

regard to climate impacts on agriculture today in the future, and how can we

possibly best adapt to what experts are projecting will be the climate in

the near future, the next number of decades or in early in the next century.

Right on Rob.

Uh, a great answer and certainly in my own case, I became a farmer 'cause I wanted to

be on the front lines of climate change.

I did not want

Yeah.

in a city feeling like there was nothing I can do.

So I, I think you hit it right on the nose.

And finally the

Great.

uh, kind of like the first question.

This is meant to be a gut response.

You're not supposed to think about this for any time.

This isn't an Academy Award, uh, acceptance speech.

But who are the leaders that you look up to, whether dead or alive, whether

famous or unknown, but who are the people that the rest of us, uh, should

be paying attention to or looking for some form of inspiration or leadership?

Yeah.

Um, I have long admired, uh, Maha Ma Gandhi.

Um, I read a fantastic biography of him, uh, many decades ago

and that's really stuck with me.

Uh, he was just an incredible person.

Um, and one of the great lines he had, uh, is that there's enough for everyone's

need, but not for everyone's greed.

And that's really stuck with me.

'cause I think greed is a huge, huge problem in our species.

You know, this, this capacity for people just to want to have evermore,

you know, Elon Musk close to becoming the world's first trillionaire.

I mean, how ridiculous is that?

So Maha Ma Gandhi, for sure.

Um, because of the situation south of the border, I, I follow the US politics

quite closely and have for years.

So I'm kinda looking for those, those current leaders in the US who might

emerge as the, not as the saviour, but to try to help turn that country around

once, uh, once Mr. Trump is no longer in office, uh, which can't come soon enough.

Um, so, you know, there's some, some state level leaders that.

I've kind of impressed me about how they kind of conduct themselves.

Like Andy Beshear, who's the governor of Kentucky, he's a

Democrat, but he governs a red state.

Uh, he seems, he seems very impressive to me.

Um, yeah, I mean, those are couple of names, but lots of other people.

Franklin Roosevelt was a great, in my view, a great president, uh,

was very, uh, focused on helping, uh, of course Abraham Lincoln

well

in Canada, you know, uh.

Yeah, I mean, I have my, uh, folks as well, but uh, those are a

couple of names that come to mind.

was gonna say you're on a roll, but you are starting to

transition into the Academy Award accepted speech, so that's where we

have to play the music to send you off.

All right.

this has

Okay.

a fantastic conversation, Rob.

I, I, I really appreciate your perspective.

And I, I appreciate you both bringing up the climate change, uh, because

unfortunately we haven't had enough guests, uh, reminding us of the

incredible challenge that faces this sector, but also that you brought

up the universal basic income.

Because I don't think you're gonna be the last guest, uh, to tie that

in to the role that it can play in agriculture, let alone the role that

it can play in terms of food security.

Uh, so thank you very much.

This is a, a really, I think, uh, for me, but also for our guests,

has been a good understanding of the rural, uh, dynamics that play into

the larger food security fabric.

To add insult to injury, Rob was perhaps the first guest that

has worse internet than I do.

And I have to express considerable gratitude, uh, to Rob, not only providing

what was an incredible and insightful conversation, but he had to then leave his

laptop open for essentially the rest of the day in order for the file to upload

so that we could get the, the quality of the conversation and audio that we did.

You know, this is something a lot of city dwellers really just don't

understand, which is how horrific rural internet in Canada remains.

Granted, there were some upgrades as a consequence of funding that

came during the lockdowns and the pandemic where we had this brief

moment where rural connectivity and high speed internet was valued.

But as a society, we've forgotten about that and the cities led by Silicon

Valley continue to race forward into the future and rural residents struggle

to, in this case, even have a podcast conversation while doing the rest of their

work throughout the course of the day.

So thank you, Rob, uh, for the conversation and for your patience in

allowing us to share that conversation, uh, with listeners all around the world.

Uh, we're gonna move forward, uh, from the food insecurity topic to

start looking at food sociology, food studies, the culture of food.

It's not to suggest that we're wrapping up when it comes to food insecurity and food

security, but we're moving on a cyclical nature when it comes to the subjects

that we research and the knowledge that we mobilise here on the future herd.

And I really felt that today's conversation with Rob leaves us with a

lot of action, action to move forward, whether it's in policy, whether

it's conceiving our food system.

And so it's not that we are closing a chapter on food insecurity, but

more, we're gonna explore other loops before we come back to it.

Nonetheless, I am asking you once again to go to our website, uh,

click on the link to the commons and share your views on the topic.

We will be adding more topics on the commons in the days and weeks to come.

But I really feel that there've been a number of insights, a number of

opportunities that we've been able to surface by looking at the larger

food security issue, and I wanna make sure that we integrate them as we move

forward and continue the conversations with leaders from our agrifood sector.

If you have any feedback, please send it to us.

If you wanna give us a five star review on your podcast platform of choice,

by all means, and if you wanna tell us how terrible we are, uh, this is

where I will remind you that X, uh, once known as Twitter is a wonderful

place to, uh, uh, air your grievances in the hopes that other disgruntled

people will carry them forward.

Until then, I'm Jesse Hirsh, and we'll see you soon on The Future Heard.