Hey everyone, Brad and Steve here for another episode of Blue Collar BS! Today, we’re diving into the world of selling—focusing on how to position your business in a crowded market and stay top of mind for your clients.

We tackle the big topic of positioning your business for success. Whether you're a plumber, electrician, or in manufacturing, we’re seeing a lot of businesses struggle with adapting to changing markets and hesitant customers. We talk about why traditional approaches to selling no longer cut it and how positioning is the secret sauce to staying relevant in today’s competitive landscape.

We dive into practical examples, including how to adjust your messaging, improve your sales process, and build stronger relationships with clients. We also share some real-world insights on how businesses are setting themselves apart by focusing on why they do what they do, rather than just what they offer. We wrap up by sharing a few resources and tools to help you create a process that keeps you on track.

Highlights:

Adapting to Changing Markets:

• Brad shares how home service and manufacturing businesses are dealing with changing markets and hesitant buyers.

Positioning for Success:

• Steve explains the importance of positioning your business to be top of mind for potential clients and why it's more than just selling services.

The Power of Messaging:

• We discuss how words matter in your messaging and why focusing on the emotional side of sales can create deeper client connections.

Sales Process Challenges:

• The importance of building rapport and how skipping steps in the sales process can cost you opportunities.

Follow-Up Techniques:

• We share how effective follow-up can close deals without being pushy, offering practical examples of what works and what doesn’t.

Process & Automation Tools:

• Brad highlights tools like Contractor Foreman and other platforms that help businesses stay on track with follow-ups and lead management.

Mindset Shift:

• Shifting from a "selling" mindset to letting people "buy from you"—a game-changer that can take your business to the next level.

Thanks for tuning in! If you found this episode helpful, don’t forget to subscribe, rate, and review Blue Collar BS. Your support helps us keep the show growing and getting better. We’d love to hear how you’re positioning your business, so reach out to us and share your thoughts or questions!

Mentioned:

The Challenger Sale

The New Model of Selling

Secrets of Cold Call Success

Connect with us:

Steve Doyle:

Website

LinkedIn

Email

Brad Herda:

Website

LinkedIn

Email

This podcast uses the following third-party services for analysis:

OP3 - https://op3.dev/privacy

Brad Herda (: 00:01

Hey everyone, welcome back to Blue Collar BS with your cohost Brad.

Steve Doyle (: 00:06

and Steve.

Brad Herda (: 00:07

and Steve and we are here with another episode of the Blue Coward BS podcast. Mr. Daw and I will have some fun. And today's topic Mr. Doyle is going to be what?

Steve Doyle (: 00:22

selling. Why not? That's the topic.

Brad Herda (: 00:25

selling, right? We've been talking about this race to the bottom and different things. I am seeing home service organizations and other manufacturing organizations that are struggling to learn how to adapt in changing markets.

Steve Doyle (: 00:32

Mm -hmm.

Steve Doyle (: 00:49

Mm -hmm.

Brad Herda (: 00:50

Are you seeing similar in your client base?

Steve Doyle (: 00:54

Not necessarily adapting to changing markets. It's more the, I would say the hesitancy now of things. Hesitancy to spend money.

Right, the, know, whether it's, whether they're government contracts or they are, you know, homeowners, right? There's,

Brad Herda (: 01:26

Speaking of government, speaking of governments, you remember our guest Anne Eschenbach? I reconnected with her and she is starting another, a different potential project than the one in the Carolinas that is potentially even more exciting than the first one, which will create opportunity to have two large projects versus just one. It's pretty freaking cool. So anyhow, sorry about hesitancy. She's not, she's not hesitating. She's moving forward.

Steve Doyle (: 01:31

Yeah.

Steve Doyle (: 01:50

That's cool. Anyhow, as you die -

Good. That's good. the thing with the homeowners that we're seeing here is just the hesitancy to spend money for doing any updates to their homes or things like that. That's just a natural thing that occurs. Yeah, we're not a political show, but this politics does come into play right now, especially where we are in the election cycle.

So we are seeing some of that.

Yeah, so that's just more, that's what's interesting. Some of the things that I have been seeing more is specifically around sales is all in positioning. And how are we positioning ourselves for our future clients?

Brad Herda (: 02:51

elaborate more on what you define as positioning there Mr. Doyle.

Steve Doyle (: 02:56

So when we talk, when we think of positioning, it's what is the first thing that comes into your mind when you associate with a word? So humor me, Brad. When you think of soda, what comes to mind? What brand comes to mind?

Brad Herda (: 03:18

What brand? For me, Diet Pepsi, because that's what I drink.

Steve Doyle (: 03:19

Mm -hmm.

Steve Doyle (: 03:23

Okay, when you think of shoes, what brand comes to mind?

Brad Herda (: 03:35

what kind of shoes we talking about.

Steve Doyle (: 03:37

Doesn't matter.

Brad Herda (: 03:39

It does matter because each brand has a little different niche in my world. You gotta remember I'm a shoe whore. I'm a shoe whore, so you gotta remember that.

Steve Doyle (: 03:40

But brain comes.

Steve Doyle (: 03:46

Weird.

something new comes out. Right. But but, right. So let's talk golf then Brad. When we when you hear the word golf, what brand comes to mind?

Brad Herda (: 04:02

Again depending upon what we're talking about balls clubs shoes shirts Yes Go with clubs clubs would be Mizuno

Steve Doyle (: 04:06

Doesn't matter. Pick one. Pick one. Go with clubs. It doesn't matter. Yeah. Okay, go with balls.

Brad Herda (: 04:16

Titleist.

Steve Doyle (: 04:18

Okay, but the whole thing with positioning, those brands are etched in your mind. You're going to consistently go to those brands you know, like and trust from a positioning standpoint, from selling, how are you positioning yourself? So from a company standpoint, a construction company, how are you positioning yourself to be that brand that comes to people's without saying, you know, I do, you know, I do plumbing. I do.

You know, bathrooms, roofs and more. OK, that's that's right. Right. It doesn't matter. Like, does that come to mind? No. Like when you think of when you think of a plumber, right, doesn't matter the trade. But when you think of that that company, what comes to mind and what did that company do to position themselves to be top of mind? So a lot of the conversations I have in sales.

is how do we become top of mind? How do we position ourselves to be top of mind with our future clients?

Brad Herda (: 05:27

Right, and too often, everybody focuses on what they're going to do. Right, a plumber, I'm going to fix the leak. Yeah, but I can call any plumber to fix the leak. I can Google and get 2 ,000 of them within an hour radius of your home. So yeah, you are correct. It's not focusing on what you're going to do.

Steve Doyle (: 05:34

Mm -hmm.

Brad Herda (: 05:55

the why you might be doing it or the emotion that comes along with doing it or the why is this different? I know I have a client in manufacturing where they're just they want to be the high mix low volume. And when he changed his positioning to be high mix low volume, because that's what he was geared for and what he can do and what's really good at his business changed because

Steve Doyle (: 06:11

Mm

Brad Herda (: 06:23

The buyers on the other end are always sold to for I want all your production work. want your production work. They didn't want that. I want the thing you got like three of that completely fucks up your entire shop for months at a time. Those are the things I want. Not not the things that you do. I want to do the things that cause problems for you and his business flourished when he started making the positioning change.

Steve Doyle (: 06:38

Mm hmm. Yeah. Right. And it all.

Steve Doyle (: 06:51

Yeah, and that's the that's the whole point is for our audience to truly understand our clients. When we work with them, we get them really to focus on who is it you're serving and how do you want to be recognized? How do you want to be known? What do you want to be known for? Because that's what all great brands do. So as much as selling is, is about, you know, there's there's the brand awareness. There's all of that. It comes down to the messaging.

And it comes down to how do you want your clients to see you? What light do you want your clients to see you

Brad Herda (: 07:29

Hopefully not dark, dirty and dangerous.

Steve Doyle (: 07:33

Well, I mean, look at Dirty Jobs, right? With Mike Rowe. He's known for something. He's known for Dirty Jobs. He's known for some other things.

Brad Herda (: 07:43

by the way, still still still hasn't been a guest on the show. Hey, Mike, if you're listening, we'd love to have you on.

Steve Doyle (: 07:50

Right? Always got to put that out there. Right? So when we talk messaging, let's peel that back a little bit, Brad. So when we talk about messaging to our clients, what are some things that people need to pay attention to from a messaging standpoint?

Brad Herda (: 07:56

Absolutely.

Brad Herda (: 08:13

They need to pay attention that words matter.

Steve Doyle (: 08:16

What do mean by that?

I I can't have a logo that says FU on it.

Brad Herda (: 08:20

Steve Doyle (08:26.473)

you

Brad Herda (: 08:31

So that goes for Alan Fisher. So the backstory, folks, is I have a financial advisor in my network who has this monthly newsletter that goes out. we were brainstorming. said, let's make it the Fisher updates. And so I made him a logo with a big FU on it. lo and behold, it didn't pass compliance. Shockingly, compliance said, no, you can't use that.

Steve Doyle (: 08:36

You

Steve Doyle (: 08:45

it

Steve Doyle (: 08:54

You

Steve Doyle (: 08:57

Shocking!

Brad Herda (: 09:01

who's funny as hell, but shockingly they said no.

Steve Doyle (: 09:04

Right. So so words matter. Right. But how how how does it how does that impact for? Let's let's say an electrician. How do do words matter for an electrical company?

Brad Herda (: 09:30

So like if you're, we're here to fix all your electrical problems. Ho hum, right? I use the word fixed. I'm talking your, which we're talking about them. And we talk about problems. Okay, well, you've now put the problem on the customer and you're there to be the hero to fix it. So your customer is now the villain, not the hero.

Steve Doyle (: 09:35

Yep.

Steve Doyle (: 09:45

Mm -hmm.

Steve Doyle (: 09:54

Mm

Steve Doyle (: 09:59

Mm -hmm.

Brad Herda (: 10:01

Right. And that just comes off to some. doesn't matter because they don't pay attention to it. They don't think about it. They don't worry about it. They just need their switches to work when they turn it on. And cool. You fix my problems that will resonate with a lot of people potentially moving forward. Probably not so much because it's the dynamics have shifted and things have changed.

Steve Doyle (: 10:01

and

Steve Doyle (: 10:27

Mm -hmm.

So moving beyond the words, what else from a sales perspective have you run into?

Brad Herda (: 10:41

very poor presentation, right? When we go through our sales skills index, they skip all the steps, right? They, don't create the rapport in many cases because I got to do the next thing. I'm really, I'm really busy. And that body language and demeanor in front of that customer tells them that you're really busy and you're just there stopping by to say hi and slap a number on it type scenario.

Steve Doyle (: 10:47

you

Brad Herda (: 11:11

So you really need to develop that rapport and that relationship with the customer first, because if you don't believe in them, they're not going to believe in you either.

Steve Doyle (: 11:22

Yep. And not just, and not just rapport.

Brad Herda (: 11:26

You know, so usually that's usually one of the first things that goes horribly wrong.

Steve Doyle (: 11:32

The other thing that I've noticed that goes wrong with after a report is just the tone, the tone of our voice, the pitch of our voice. That actually comes into play as well when we're in those prospecting first impression type scenarios. From a sales perspective, are you coming across pushy? Or are you coming across with concern?

for your clients.

Brad Herda (: 12:03

Right. And many, well, we just had some other folks on talking about their sales journeys and things like that, but too often the sales person, why are you trying to sell me this? Are you trying to sell it to me because you're a full commission and your, your family is depending upon you to make this sale. So you come off very, you come off, push you, you come off with a, gotta make the sale. I gotta make the sale, do everything to make it happen.

Steve Doyle (: 12:13

Mm

Brad Herda (: 12:33

Are you coming at it with a scarcity mindset? Are you coming at it with an abundance mindset? The biggest thing I can say that changed my business is when I decided that I needed to stop selling to people and let people buy from me.

Steve Doyle (: 12:38

Right.

Steve Doyle (: 12:47

Mm -hmm. Yes. 1 ,000%. Same thing.

Brad Herda (: 12:53

And that may sound really weird to people. It's like. No, I'm going to provide the information I'm going to. Be cordial, I'm going to support them however I can, whatever information it's going to need. And if they want the product or services that we offer fantastic. If they don't. That's OK too. Because. There is.

Steve Doyle (: 13:16

Mm -hmm.

Brad Herda (: 13:22

Plenty for everyone.

Steve Doyle (: 13:24

Mm -hmm.

Steve Doyle (: 13:29

Right. The other thing that that I've noticed is when. Having conversations with people, most people are ready to tell you about the tangible things they do like yeah, we come in, you know, will replace all your outlets will replace all the you know the cover plates. You know, will come in and you know running diagnostic and whatever else is so they tell tell all that stuff, but. That really doesn't really engage the buyer on the other end. They're not painting a picture.

of the possibility of the frustration, the concern that the buyer has. And so if we start flipping this, I would say flip the script to be more curious. Read the person, understand how does this person like to communicate, but also focus on what is their real concern? Why do they want all this stuff done? If somebody called you up, your electrician called you up,

Brad Herda (: 14:25

Well,

Steve Doyle (: 14:28

and said, hey, you know, I want all my outlets replaced. OK, that's, you know, five thousand dollars. OK, but if we started to get into the why, well, why do you want them replaced? What's what's the what's really going on? We might start to understand what is the real problem? That's happening.

with what our clients are having.

Brad Herda (: 14:57

Yeah, we just want to update to the new color. If we don't want we don't want the ivory anymore. We want gray or black or whatever it's going to be.

Steve Doyle (: 15:04

Mm hmm. Yep, or they might have found out that, hey, you know, my relative had a house fire and it was because their their outlets were old. Like they had a faulty outlet, cut their old house on fire. Somebody is now in the hospital. I don't want that to happen to me.

Brad Herda (: 15:24

True. Right. And was it? Yeah, there's lots of other questions beyond that. But yes, the other part that's very concerning when you start getting into home into this world as well is how do you paint the picture of how you're going to treat that client's home? Right. Do you do you ask for permission to park on the driveway? Is it going to be OK if we use the driveway and can we use the garage entrance to come in and out so we don't track all the stuff through your main living area?

Steve Doyle (: 15:26

Mm -hmm.

Steve Doyle (: 15:31

Correct.

Steve Doyle (: 15:41

Right.

Steve Doyle (: 15:44

Yeah.

Brad Herda (: 15:55

Just asking that question, just asking that question alone will differentiate you from 99 % of all the other folks. The client may not give two hoots of what door or what entrance you come through, but by asking the question, you demonstrate that you care about them and their home and that you're gonna be a guest in their home and you're gonna treat their home respectfully, not just come in, bang your four buckets that you're carrying in through the front door, dragging them on the floor.

Steve Doyle (: 15:55

Mm -hmm.

Steve Doyle (: 16:11

Mm

Brad Herda (: 16:25

No, that's not what they want to see or hear or care about.

Steve Doyle (: 16:26

Right.

Steve Doyle (: 16:30

Yep. So what else, Brad, have you seen with your clients from a sales process that could be improved?

Brad Herda (: 16:43

One, have a process.

Steve Doyle (: 16:45

Yep. Not just a process, but also a detailed process that talks about what to say and when, how to handle objections.

Brad Herda (: 16:51

How about we have a process?

Brad Herda (: 17:05

Right. How to handle objections, how to write an email, how to get return phone calls. is it returned phone calls? Is it stopping in? well, I forget what the number is. I think the number is like seven contact points after you deliver the quote potentially, in order to get a decision at some point is, is the average, if I recall correctly, follow up is the biggest thing. And we often forget.

Steve Doyle (: 17:05

Because.

Steve Doyle (: 17:28

Mm hmm. Seven to eight. Yep.

Steve Doyle (: 17:33

Follow up. Follow up.

Brad Herda (: 17:34

Yeah, we often forget about the follow up. Yeah, it's like practice what? Playoffs. Follow up is critical and key and. Being able to keep that in the front of mind and following up in a way that is not. Like I said before, not selling, but being able to let them buy right doing the follow up of. Hey, I sent the follow up of just looking for status on our quote with you.

Steve Doyle (: 17:38

Exactly.

Brad Herda (: 18:05

Let me know if you have any questions. Well, no one's going to react to that versus the Mr. Smith. Thank you very much for your opportunity. It's coming to the end of the month. I know you're talking about trying to have this done by Thanksgiving. We're booking out right now to the second week of November. We still have room for you. If we can help you out, just let us know.

Steve Doyle (: 18:27

Right.

Brad Herda (: 18:28

Perfect right I mean that that is a follow -up that's gonna provide them opportunity with no pressure. No sale nothing. It's like okay great You're gonna give them a choice or decision to say yes or no versus That guy's an asshole. So stop pestering me and you go to the spam folder

Steve Doyle (: 18:39

Right.

Steve Doyle (: 18:47

Right.

Brad Herda (: 18:48

I mean, you've all you've all had those sales folks. You've all had that opportunity. You've all put your business card in the in the fishbowl for the event to win the win the TV. And two days later, you get the phone call. Did I win the team? No, but we'd like to sell you all the and it's just the it's the robo call scenario. And many do it very poorly. Some do it really well to have the conversation. Most do it very, very poorly because they're just trying to get to the next the next step. It's tactical versus

Steve Doyle (: 18:53

Mm -hmm.

Steve Doyle (: 19:10

Mm -hmm.

Brad Herda (: 19:17

I'm really relational and understanding if you're a relational seller or a, you know, strategic understanding where you fit in that mark is important.

Steve Doyle (: 19:29

Right. So with.

With knowing where people kind of fall with their sales process or not have a sales process, what are the top three recommendations you would have or that we would have we might come up with for someone looking to improve their sales process?

Brad Herda (: 19:47

What? Funny.

funny I'm just trying to find the the book where is it here yeah book that I was listening to it's a really good book it's a good sales book

Steve Doyle (: 19:58

The book?

Steve Doyle (: 20:06

what's the title?

Brad Herda (: 20:08

I'm trying to find it here. The Challenger sale.

Steve Doyle (: 20:12

How to challenge your sale, okay?

Brad Herda (: 20:14

The Challenger Sale. Yep, by Matthew Dixon. It's more about being a little bit more forceful, challenging this, providing solutions, challenging the emotional side of it, bringing some of the emotion in as to paint the picture of how the solution that you're offering puts them in a better spot tomorrow than they are today type scenario.

Steve Doyle (: 20:16

Challenger sale, okay.

Steve Doyle (: 20:43

Interesting.

Brad Herda (: 20:43

It is a good book. It's got a lot of great information in it. I'm going to tell you right now, it's dry as hell.

Steve Doyle (: 20:53

Mm -hmm.

Brad Herda (: 20:54

but it's a good book. It's got a lot of good stuff in it. So that'd be one thing, find that opportunity. The other thing that I have is another book from the cold calling coach, Paul Neuberger. What was his book? So if you're a cold call organization,

Steve Doyle (: 21:02

All right.

Brad Herda (: 21:21

This is another great opportunity to, and I'm not getting, Paul and I, know Paul, he lives here in the Milwaukee area. He is,

Brad Herda (: 21:33

Fantastic dude. The secrets to cold call success by Paul Newberger will be another book that I would recommend. It's about how to get responses back on your phone calls and on your emails.

Steve Doyle (: 21:38

Okay.

Steve Doyle (: 21:47

Nice. Nice. Yeah, mine recommendation on a book, honestly, it's going to be my NEPQ book, black book of questions. I. Yep, there's there are science based questions from a selling perspective.

Brad Herda (: 22:02

Black Book of Questions.

Brad Herda (: 22:12

Huh. Huh. You didn't have that book eight years ago, did you?

Steve Doyle (: 22:13

Yeah, weird.

I did not have that book eight years ago. They did not. And I wish I would have, honestly. I wish I would have. But what it really goes into is how do we bypass that sales resistance that we have? But it's also from a mindset for those that may have some struggles of what do I say? When do I say it? How do I set up my

sales organization. This takes all of that into account and helps set you up for success.

Brad Herda (: 22:58

Now should we? there's two books of that.

Brad Herda (: 23:04

What was it? The Black Book of Questions? What was it called?

Steve Doyle (: 23:07

The NEPQ Black Book of Questions is one. It's from seventh level. Then the other one that I really like is the new model of selling.

Brad Herda (: 23:20

Why can't I find that book on my Amazon here, bud?

Steve Doyle (: 23:22

weird.

Brad Herda (: 23:30

that's why you piece of shit you

Steve Doyle (: 23:31

That is why. Yeah, that is why. That is why. So, we'll include some links. Yeah, I'll hook up a friend.

Brad Herda (: 23:40

up a friend, would ya?

Hook up a friend. we'd be remiss as well to, to not throw out there that, you know, the organization that we're part of with our focal point franchise opportunity is all predicated on Brian Tracy's work in that sales arena. it, it, it,

Steve Doyle (: 23:58

Yep.

Brad Herda (: 24:03

We yeah, he has a lot of different things. We have content. We have different things for it, but it's not Just to be honest it is it is good, but it is maybe Needs some more refreshing and some some twist to it for it to be practical and to market

Steve Doyle (: 24:05

It's

Steve Doyle (: 24:08

Yep.

Steve Doyle (: 24:18

Yeah, it's great base work. The stuff that we're talking about now helps enhance that.

Brad Herda (: 24:27

correct.

Steve Doyle (: 24:29

So it's, you know, even for us as being master coaches, we still have to learn, we have to continuously learn, sharpen our saws. And so there's always something new to learn, different ways, different approaches. And so we do strive to continuously find and refine what we do to help serve our clients better.

Brad Herda (: 24:29

So.

Brad Herda (: 24:52

Yeah. The biggest thing I can recommend that it was have a process, have documentation, have a place to track it, invest in contractor form and invest in something, invest in something that can allow you to, to manage and track whether it's the free help spot or contractor form and to help you do your estimates and flow it all through whatever, whatever the tool is, find a tool, find an automation tool that can give you the reminders, give you the things to

say I need to do those and then you eliminate the excuse of the I forgot and now you have only only the decision you have made to do something or not do to do something to deal with versus your own memory or your own opportunity so process will be key in any sales effort.

Brad Herda (: 25:48

It's like anything. It's like training to be a football player back in high school. Whatever it is, it's still training. You have to do it repetitively to get good at it. And if you decide that you're going to half ass it, then it's always going to be half ass. And the worst thing I ever don't ever want to hear people say is, well, I'm not a salesman. Well, everybody sells something and it doesn't matter whether or not you are a professional salesperson or not.

Steve Doyle (: 25:58

Right.

Steve Doyle (: 26:08

You know, everybody does.

Brad Herda (: 26:17

You are always selling something. You may be selling your ideas to your boss upstream to influence them to take on a new idea or a new initiative. You might be selling something to your family members. Let's go on vacation because it's something you want to do or don't want to do. We're always selling and influencing in just about every conversation we have.

Steve Doyle (: 26:25

Mm

Brad Herda (: 26:39

So don't forget that and do not belittle yourself as you go through the process.

Steve Doyle (: 26:43

Absolutely. Couldn't agree more, Brad.

Brad Herda (: 26:47

All right, Mr. Doyle, we will talk to you again soon on the next episode of the Blue Collar BS podcast. And by the way, congratulations to us for reaching number five on the Feedspot Top 40 Blue Collar Podcasts to Follow.

Steve Doyle (: 26:58

Doh!

Woo! Yeah!

Steve Doyle (: 27:08

Nice work, Brad.

Brad Herda (: 27:10

So we are up to number five and we thank you, our audience members for all of your support and kind words and you know, be great to make it to number three. So let's try to make that a goal, shall we?

Steve Doyle (: 27:24

Now that we put it out there, we have to. Here we go so. Alright, sounds good. Thanks bread.

Brad Herda (: 27:26

Alright. Yep, there you go. We'll talk to later, Sir. Bye.