Corinne chats about the effects of AI and corporate bureaucracy on recruitment and how candidates need to improve on selling themselves. We also unpack what's missing from the hiring process and why it's important for employees to make themselves visible in the workplace. And Corinne explains why she thinks posting personal stuff on Linkedin qualifies for the big bin of bullshit.

That's why the BBC dubbed Corinne as the "career guru". She's written best-sellers “You’re Hired! How to write a brilliant CV” and “Career Coach” has appeared regularly on TV and writes for the Guardian.

BWB is powered by Oury Clark

businesswithoutbullshit.me

We are definitely rolling.

You haven't cleared your throat.

Oh, there you go.

Okay, here we go.

Hello.

Welcome to Business Without Bullshit.

I am Andy Orian, alongside me as my co-host Pippa Stud.

Hi, Andy.

Oh yes.

And today we are joined by Kareen Mills.

Hey Kareen.

Hello.

Hey, Kareen is a highly experienced career coach and author of Bestseller.

You Are Hired.

How to Write a Brilliant cv.

She's Made Appearances on TV writes.

The guardian, he's managing director of a personal career management for 20 years and help lots and lots of people love Monday mornings now that, that's an immediate challenge for me, I have to say.

So I guess Kareem, we always like to start with, uh, what's keeping you up at night?

What's, uh, bothering you at the moment in your world?

Well, I think what's really interesting is some of the technology.

That is coming out now.

I dunno, have you tried chat G B T?

It's insane.

Not yet, actually.

Oh, you need to.

It is so phenomenal and I think, you know, there's lots of things that, it's gonna be such a boon to so many people in their jobs, but there is also a sense of when's it all gonna end and actually, are we all gonna be out of a job?

Um, so I think what keeps me up at night is jobs are gonna be changing.

What does that mean for all of us in terms of our work for the future?

But there are presumably in in your line of business, there are things that are personal to the individual that chat t p t can't do.

Right?

Hey, it is not infallible, right?

But this is the start.

It's gonna get.

Even better and it learns from itself.

You know, I, as a career coach, I help people write, covering letters and cvs and all those things.

I asked it to write a covering letter.

How did they, for a job to write a covering letter?

If you're applying for a job as a retail assistant, I can tell you that the version it produced was probably better than about 95% of those that candidates currently use would at least have been spell right.

It would, grammar would've been perfect.

Yeah, it would've been impeccable.

Now there are still things you have to do.

You have to personalize it.

It can still get things wrong.

You have to, it has to be authentic.

It can't just, you know, pretend you are something that you are not.

Mm-hmm.

But it's already really racist standards, so, so it's kind of giving leverage, I think, for people to be able to do more.

Yeah.

Cuz it makes it easier if you get chat to do.

The basics then presumably you can send out 70 covering letters where you would've been able to send out 12 a.

Absolutely.

And each one can be tweaked and each version is all kind of individual.

Yeah.

It won't be exactly the same as somebody else's, so I think it's phenomenal.

Is big changes ahead for the world of work and how we might use it.

So yes, so there are fantastic opportunities, but there are also some scary things around that as well.

What do you think about software generally when it comes to hiring?

So I can think of a couple of uses.

One to test the individual's IQs or metrics.

And another is like, people use it for discrimination reasons.

So they take all the cvs and it takes all of the.

Details out them.

So you have no idea.

It's called Bob, everyone's called Bob or whatever.

What do you think about that's using, so those sorts of softwares for a business.

So there's some fantastic time efficient, non-discriminatory, you know, merits to doing all of these things.

I think the difficulty is that it gets so depersonalized, you know, again, candidates get.

Commoditized and it's very difficult for somebody to break through and grab attention because they're trying to work the algorithms and, and make sure that they're visible.

And I think that employers are missing out on great talent because necessarily, you know, candidates don't know how to use the software.

Either that they failed the IQ test or you, you, I mean, there's so many things to me it was a very unfair question.

So let's just do one end of them, which is, Psychometrics, is that what it's called?

Yeah.

What do we think That's a good idea or a bad idea?

Oh, it can be look, right?

Somebody sends the CV in, right?

You only, you've only got their version.

Yeah.

Of what it is that they're saying about themselves.

So actually any other additional information that you've got to help verify that.

It's useful.

So getting them to do a personality assessment, getting them to do, you know, a numerical or verbal reasoning, that's additional information.

So it helps you validate, right?

Yeah.

Is what agree they're saying on the cv.

Right.

But you know, sometimes people are dyslexic, sometimes people might, right.

My numerical reasoning right is I, it, it's, it's, it's crap.

Right.

And sometimes employers are asking for these and they.

Don't need it for the job.

Right.

If you are going to work in a warehouse, so you are gonna work in, you know, in, in some jobs, you don't need that high level.

Yeah, yeah.

Of those.

Yet a lot of organizations are just doing it right.

Routine.

Right.

It's really easy.

All our candidates can do these tests and also, presumably you need to be able to interpret that test because you need to be able to work out whether the results of that test is a good thing or not.

You know, in terms of a hire, I went for a job a while ago and had to do one of these psychometric, you know, Myers Brigg type tests, and they said, oh, do you wanna know what we, what it said about you?

I was like, okay, fine.

I'm like, oh, you are a bit of a control freak.

I'm like, no fucking shit.

Like that's, that's something I already knew.

And also, is that a good thing or not?

Like for the kind of job that I do, that probably is quite a good thing.

Yeah, because you need to be in control of the legals, but for other jobs it might not be.

You've got to be able to interpret it.

Right?

Absolutely.

You've really gotta have a good sense as an employer.

Well, your best performers.

What are the traits that you know, there's like a salesperson, right?

You probably need to have a competitive right.

Personality to be good.

Do you love at sales?

Yes.

Do you want more money at all costs?

Yes.

Sales.

But you know, that's not gonna work if you, you're applying for a job in a care home, you know?

So it is like, it has to be differentiated, but I'm not sure that employers are that good.

I would also just to it basically.

I think so.

But were you referring earlier cuz I've never tried using it, so I dunno whether you were saying that it can become de personalized.

So maybe the problem is that, but they, they would come in for an interview though.

They would be personal still.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

No, they, they were so I think look at that stage that, that's fine.

I, I think my concern for.

Kind of corporates is that sometimes they've got such a bureaucratic system.

Mm.

In order to recruit talent and you know, we can, candidates they want to have a sense of what the organization is are mm-hmm.

Is about and their culture.

And if the closest they get to that is seeing what's in the website, in the marketing, they don't actually speak to a human being.

Wow.

Um, does that happen until you, well, you know, now they're even doing video interviews where you don't even have an interviewer on the other side of it.

So it's like an automated interview?

It's an automated interview.

Absolutely.

What's the only way they can interview that many people?

It is exhausting.

But then if chat GPTs interviewing, it might be a laugh.

I mean, I've, I, blows me away.

Corporates, large corporates are inefficient.

Most of them are, you know, and people move a lot and there's no, there's no sort of memory of decision making.

You know, people are like turning up, like they work at McDonald's for a year, you know, and they disappear and no one wants to make a decision in case they get blamed.

I mean, it's just unbelievable that corporates even carry on, but they, they, they become very inefficient.

But in your experience of dealing with all these different sizes, companies, these are the bigger companies that are, Crap at hiring people or, you know, no, some of them are really good.

Okay.

But I think it's the, it is the balance of getting the, the efficient system.

So what's the perfect look like?

What, how do you, is it getting in front of people quickly?

That's important.

I, I think you have to have a clear offering.

To your candidates and you have to have some kind of dialogue.

I think that's probably the thing that's missing is a bit of avenues for dialogue.

And it might not be the hiring manager, it might be somebody else who works there.

It it just, Some kind of conversation so that people can actually ask, right, is this a good fit for me?

Get a sense of the organizer and they get a sense of you as well.

I think that's what's missing.

I think the trick there, let's take the example I could think of that would be really helpful if we put some email addresses on the website of people like lower down the organization to say, talk to 'em.

It's great.

They, they'll get pinched.

I mean, they'll get.

You haven't got enough trouble anywhere, LinkedIn, so maybe you don't have to worry anymore because everybody's online, you know?

But the trouble is, is if you hold out, these are some of our best members of staff, you know, all the HR people.

Yeah.

But people get pinched anywhere.

Like it's not gonna make a difference, but, but it probably won't.

But if you're letting people know, particularly, you know, then the things that people go to now to pinch staff, you know, that's true.

But you could have.

Like ambassadors within the company, couldn't you?

No, that's so people who are a bit like, you know, people volunteer to be mentors for other people in the organization.

You could have some people who are willing to be front facing and just have an informal chat with.

Yeah.

Candidates, and you might need a spread of those.

But I think there's, there's something about that personal, it's the personalization, it's the dialogue that I think we are missing a little bit.

I know just the person, Barry.

No.

Yeah.

And you know when, when people come and work for you and they say, one of the reasons I wanted to work here was.

You know, I really like the people, or I, I really wanted to come and work for you.

You know, those are people you value more actually when they're actually working in the business.

Yeah, and I think the other thing is because so much hiring is done remotely, so it used to be you would come into the building, right?

Mm-hmm.

You'd see people on reception, you'd get a sense of the vibe of the whole place.

You'd see people walking through to the kitchen, what they're wearing.

You're picking up all this soft information about do I fit here?

Do I want to fit here?

All these things.

But now, You don't, you have, I guess it's, it's a question of whether you're social or not.

So you are work remote only organization.

Then you set up some ambassadors and they say, well, what's it like?

And they're say, what's what?

Like my house?

You know what I mean?

Well, what's your job like?

Well, we on the slack and I get work and didn't work Well.

That's why it's become even more important because why would you join a particular organization rather than another one if you're still gonna be sitting in your front room on your laptop?

For most of it, it's like, why weren't?

Well, no, but, but the ams, I think up here.

Are the ones that are glues.

So, you know, you could immediately name, you know, I think I probably about there we're very lucky.

Maybe there's at least 10 people who are just, they don't even realize they're just absolute glue.

Like they keep a whole team together.

They keep everyone happy.

Buying people, chocolates, I don't know.

They're just, they're just, you know, that's their character type.

So those are the natural ambassadors.

But remotely, I don't think that's, it's not gonna happen because what they p those nice people pick up on when people are upset or people are tired, you know?

You.

I'm talking to myself by the way.

I'm just really thinking about it quite deeply.

It's like, yeah, I don't know if you want a business without a community and people say you can have a community online, but I don't know.

When I think about it, you have to work much harder.

If you are working remotely, you have to manufacture these things.

Because I think in otherwise in the workplace, some of those things happen naturally.

You know, people con congregating in the kitchen, the gossip, the informal chat, the gossip.

Do they have a Slack chat for gossip on there?

Did you know that so-and-so shagged so-and-so on The Gossip Channel, oh my God.

Well, it that all, that all happens, that all that all goes on, but it feels different.

You have to create some other kind of community.

When people are working hard, it is hard.

What is your perfect setup for a candidate?

You know how, I know you said it would change, but give me an example.

How many interviews should someone go through?

Like what you know, what do you do on a cv?

Do you chuck everyone?

That's to more than two pages.

And you know what?

You know what?

You've gotta sift through it.

You get fu okay, we've put a job out, we've had 500 applications.

You know, so I work with individuals.

Mm, I work with corporate, so on corporate size, I'm helping them develop their.

Individual employees career development, but I work with a lot of PRI private individuals.

So the key thing is, Most people don't really know what they want and they don't know how to sell themselves.

So how do you approach it?

You know?

So you look, you've gotta be factual, right?

You can't pretend to be anything.

Like, don't lie, it's a criminal offense.

We've had people lie on our cvs, it's criminal because ours is professional.

Oh yeah, you say that you got, you know, you're this and not, you know?

And by the way, top tips do not lie even a little bit on your cv because if we find that someone's lied and people do all the time, we check the references.

That's it.

You can't get a job here because you are already a liar.

We dunno if you've changed.

Yeah.

Cause someone recently wasn't there.

I think they were an accountant who got eight years in prison for lying.

He's common.

If you fit, if you fit, if I say I'm aca, I'm not.

You know?

I mean, it's unbelievable.

No, you can't lie.

Yeah.

And, and don't lie.

But you come outta school.

It's the same thing about when someone asks you, well there's a different question about how much you earn and that's your one moment up it a little bit, you know?

So they upped it a little bit and then there you go.

Shorten life, of course.

You what you, you're earning anywhere when it comes to P four five in and kind of coming through.

But people are gotta be positive about themselves.

So it's like you've gotta show the best version of yourself, right?

We all can, you know, reel off our weaknesses and our failings.

People love to talk about the things, they're rubbish up, but they're not very good at talking about their good things.

So you've gotta work out what your strengths are, and that applies in organizations as well as when you're applying for, for a job, because you could be doing a really fantastic job.

But if only your manager knows and nobody else in the organization knows, right.

You're not gonna get the career progression.

What'd you do then?

The after?

I'm like, you've gotta make yourself visible.

Yeah.

You gotta tell, you gotta say something.

Gotta I claim the credit.

It's my, my line.

In British cultures, you say you go to your boss and you say, I'm really grateful for the job.

I'm happy to continue doing that job, but I can do more than less.

I'm capable of more.

And then they start thinking shit.

We're gonna lose them unless we give them more.

Look, that's a win-win, isn't it really?

Right.

You, you right, you've gotta do your job well, right?

You've gotta, you've gotta perform in the job.

But you've gotta say, actually, I'm really in, I'm really committed to this, but I'm really interested in expanding my skills in here.

Or can I get some exposure to working on this?

But that's a win-win cuz they get more out of you.

You are more motivated.

Yeah.

I mean, slightly what you say is you've gotta sell yourself and then some people are just shit at talking or not.

Charismatic.

You can learn that a teeny bit.

Well, you can, but I think the key to that is right.

Some people are always gonna be more charismatic than others.

Okay.

The difference is self-belief, right?

If you say in terms of accounty or tax advice or whatever, you know, I, I know my stuff.

I, you know, I'm expert in this.

I've helped companies with this syndrome.

That and the other, what imposter syndrome is a really.

Big thing.

It's way more common than you know.

So as a coach, every day I'm talking to people who say that they've got imposter syndrome, and these are some of the most successful people you'll ever cut by any measure.

These are high achievers and they're saying, I'm just really scared that I'm gonna get found out.

So, What I'm saying is that is part of the human condition.

But how do you teach?

I mean, how do you teach somebody's self-belief?

You send them to America for 10 years though.

No, but is it a fake it till you make it thing?

No.

Well, look, you work with a coach like me, quite, quite frankly, because you have to work out what you're good at and look when you are young.

Right, you're still learning about yourself.

You're still, and you are untested, so you really, what you wanna go out and do is experiment and scoop up as much a different experiences as you can and learn from that.

I think when you are older and you are starting to learn a little bit more about, well actually I do like this, and less keen on that, really playing to your strengths,

looking for roles that are a good match for that, that's already gonna give you some confidence cuz you've got some really good content to talk about actually.

I would be good for this role because actually I'm great at this.

I've got some experience doing that, but this sounds great, but it's really hard to work out though, isn't it?

I mean, when you're talking to a 20 year old, I mean that, that, that's like.

Psychotherapy to, you know, what you're good at.

I mean, they, I'm just being devil's advocate as in like, I agree with what you're saying.

It makes a lot of sense and go for things that sort of, you know, you know, you could be good at.

But Wow.

How do you, you know, are you suggesting people do this when they're 20 or when you're talking to 19, 20 year olds?

If I look back at what I was like at, at that age, I think it's a bit like, go with me here.

It is a bit like skiing.

Like I never learned to ski when I was young.

Right.

And.

I went skiing when I was in my thirties and I was shit a tick.

So I was at the top of a hill thinking, fuck me, that looks really steep.

I'm not doing that.

I'll get hurt, you know, and all those things.

Whereas you see like sort of 15 year olds throwing themselves down the hill and not giving a shit.

Yeah, and I think it's a bit like that in the, when you are like 19, 20, you don't know what you don't know.

Like you kind of think, you pretty much know everything and you're pretty good at everything and it's not until you get further on that you go, oh shit, actually, I didn't know any of that.

Or I d I didn't know about that and I'm really bad at this, this, and this.

But when you are 20, you don't think like that.

And now a quick word from our sponsor, business Without Bullshit is brought to you by Ari Clark, straight Talking Financial and legal advice since 1935.

You can find us@ariclark.com.

What do you think is bullshit in business?

I think sometimes that people overshare.

I think this is a bit contentious, particularly on things like social media, on LinkedIn.

So I think that sometimes it's pretty well-intentioned and I think there is.

A good case for normalizing some, sometimes some personal challenges that people might face, but there is also a bit of, I think it's quite tough to get the tone right on those very personal kind of painful posts that sometimes put on LinkedIn.

And I'm not sure where it's quite right.

They shouldn't be on LinkedIn, should it?

I mean, let's just keep posted stuff off.

There's social media and the social media and I think.

Different types of social media for different things.

Yeah.

But I'd see on LinkedIn more and more personal stuff on there.

Yeah, completely.

And I just think the boundaries are a little bit.

But also, you know, what is the first thing that anybody does if you'll seriously think of hiring somebody, you know, you deal with them, right?

So, for instance, there's um, a professional colleague, um, that I, that I have come across in, in the past who, who shared something really deeply personal and a bit hair raising, um, about.

Kind of some of the experiences that that they've had recently.

And it's like on a professional basis, I don't necessarily need to know that backstory.

Yeah, I think I agree on LinkedIn particularly, but people are very different how they deal with information, aren't they?

And.

You know, whether you come from a close family or not, and people get lonely or they just wanna be, just wanna poke the universe.

And, you know, it's, it's, it's this sort of very different way everyone deals with it because private matters should be kept private.

But if you don't have much of a private life, you don't have a family.

You know, maybe you, you know, it's like you don't, I mean, you don't have any family.

You're not married.

You know, I mean, it's sort of, you, you, you, you're on the road a lot.

Say you end up and then the only place you got followers is on LinkedIn.

You just sort of, but I agree.

I mean, I just think personal stuff on LinkedIn, can we just keep it to the business?

I think so.

You know, that's, and that, because that's a nice framework because the moment when it's gonna get personal, Then I have all these other strange duties of care about responding to these things.

Or you know, are my friends on that?

Am I being a good friend in the community?

I ain't fucking there to be a friend.

It's just my cv.

If you really want to get in touch with me, there's a way.

You know, I think what's also tricky about it is it is a broadcast medium, right?

Yeah.

So there's nif no differentiation between who's reading it.

So if somebody's.

Sharing something really personal.

It's like, well, it's not just to me.

It's not like you are in a room and you're telling me something that you think that I need to know about you is to all and sundry.

So it is also difficult to know how to respond and how kind of genuine it's, yeah, sometimes there is a little bit.

Of attention seeking.

It feels like a little bit on that.

I like the concept don't overshare in business generally.

I mean, it's taken me a long time to work it out, but I think when you are younger, you're just sort of desperately throwing out information a lot of the time.

You know, it's sort of, but it's not retrievable.

That's the other thing.

But even verbally you are, I meaning, you know, don't, I'm thinking verbally.

Don't overshare verbally.

I mean, it's quite a fine art because you know, you should sh you should, you should choose to overshare when you're building trust.

On a one-to-one, it's just don't over over.

You can overshare when it's a one-to-one.

If you choose to take someone into the confidence and at least maybe give 'em the warning if there's nothing, a hot dog in their mouth and you say, oh, do you mind if I tell you something?

It's a bit or something, you know, because there's a, otherwise there might be that isn't, but isn't that the thing?

It's like you'd think twice about sharing that.

So on a personal, on a one-to-one basis, yet you wouldn't think twice about saying that same thing to a thousand, 10,000 people.

Yeah.

Broadcast it.

Is that curious?

Well, there's, how do I put it?

Well, let's be honest.

Other people, when you see posts in them, they, it's like a certain type of person who does this thing, doesn't make them a bad person, but you know, they're

lonely or they don't really understand people or, you know, maybe they haven't just, no one's heard from them in ages and they suddenly do this big outpouring post.

You know, what medium do they do it on?

They just sort of panic and do it on them.

They just, they just need a hug and a beer.

Which just take us back to the other point that we're talking about, which is the sense of work community, right?

That shared sense that people need.

Mm-hmm.

Cause there is a support structure around that.

Yeah.

I think you are also expressing that if you were very tribal, and if we live in a building with people a lot of the time, then you know you have a duty of care to one another.

You know the.

As much as anything that if someone's having a tough time, you are gonna be the one hanging out with 'em.

So if you don't help them out, you are gonna have to live with it.

You are gonna be spending three days your week with this fucked up, miserable person and you of course, that's very cynical way of putting it.

But I'm saying even if you're cynical, it's in your best interest to look after each other.

But you know, we humans, within their own tribe, we're very caring.

So this is the five second rule.

We've got five seconds and we're gonna ask you a list of questions, get to know you a little better.

Are you ready?

Not five seconds for the whole thing.

Five seconds of question.

Perfect answers.

Yeah.

Do apologize.

What was your first job?

Uh, picking potatoes.

What was your worst job?

Uh, picking potatoes.

Yes.

Favorite subject at school?

English and drama.

English and drama.

What's your special skill?

Listening.

Ooh, wait, why is that the woo?

It's, it's a great answer, but it's a, it's a very sort of like, yeah, that's what everyone should say.

Yeah, that's my, well, look, as a coach, that's my professional skill.

That's what you need to do.

Yeah.

What did you wanna be when you grew up?

Actress, of course, drama.

What did your parents want you to be happy here?

Happy.

Happy actress.

Yeah.

Well, what's your go-to karaoke song?

Well, uh, anything shout cuz I, um, I, I walk in a new wave band when I back in the eighties and I've just had a record re-released.

Would you believe just this, just this week?

No way.

What's the name of the band?

I, it's rather politically incorrect, I have to say.

It was a punk new wave, Bradley?

Human Cabbages.

Human Cabbages.

Is that a felician, correct?

No, I don't know.

It sounds a little bit dodgy, but we were punked.

What was the song that got room released?

Uh, the windows broke.

Why has it suddenly been rereleased?

It's part of a compilation album called The Winter Discontent In There.

Jesus, they're collecting together this gritty pity on there and lots of other bands.

Um, it's kind of from that era.

Oh my God, we have to hear this song.

We're have to, we'll have to tag it in the, in the below bit.

Uh, office Dogs Business of Bullshit.

I'm a cat person, so I have to say, dang dog poop.

Um, have you ever been fired?

Yes.

Oh, first.

Day as a waitress in, in the state, what stage did you drop, you know, in, in the state, say, you know, the proper professional waitresses, aren't they?

Have you been trained as a waitress?

Yeah, yeah, I've been trained.

I've not, haven't done any training at all.

Um, yeah, I think it took about an hour before I was fired and on my way, I was rubbish.

Um, what's your vice?

Ha.

Half drunk cups of tea.

Oh my God, you're my sister.

What's that?

That, that's not a vice, that's a cleanliness problem.

Let's say, let's say you deal with your property, it's absolutely infuriating.

Well, I dunno.

It's when you walk into a house or whatever and you say, anybody want a cup of tea?

And one person always says, yes.

And then 10, you know, half an hour later you say, I, I rest my case.

Yes.

Lovely.

Does anybody want a cup of tea?

And the same person says, oh yes, I'd love one.

You're like, you've got three quarters of a cup of tea right there that you have not drunk.

I apologize.

You know the idea of tea more than tea?

Indeed.

You need to find a new tea maybe, you know?

Yes.

Maybe.

Can I, uh, matcha And that's a good one.

So we'll give you 30 seconds to pitch a company, podcast, whatever you like, off you go.

So personal career management.

We specialize in career management, so working with individuals to help you make smart choices about your career, move into the job that you want, and for organizations helping you make the most of your talent.

Really nurturing your people to help them develop their potential.

Very good.

There you have it.

That was this week's episode of Business Without Bullshit.

Uh, thank you Kareen.

Thank you Pippa.

Thank you Dee.

And we'll be back with BW b extra on Thursday.