Walking is not only a fundamental human activity, but a cornerstone for improving health and longevity as discussed in this conversation with Brad Kearns, co-author of Born to Walk: The Broken Promises of the Running Boom and How to Slow Down and Get Healthy One Step at a Time.

This new book challenges the long-held belief that we were all born to run, arguing instead that walking is a far less stressful and more beneficial form of exercise.

In this episode, Rip is also joined by his co-producer, Carrie Barrett - an avid endurance runner and triathlete.

They discuss:

• How walking is often overlooked, but is a powerful catalyst for health and longevity.
• Why many people mistakenly believe running is essential for fitness, but walking can be more beneficial.
• How the running boom has led to increased injuries, especially among recreational runners.
• Why so-called 'supershoes' are really a marketing gimmick
• A significant number of runners get injured each year, even more than NFL players.
• How improving aerobic conditioning through walking can help avoid the risks associated with running.
• How to determine your "Fat Max" heart rate level of training
• Slowing down your workouts to maximize health benefits and promote sustainable fitness
• Laying out a fitness plan that centers primarily on walking, but also includes a sprint intervals

And, as you lay out your fitness goals for 2025, we hope you're inspired to take that first step toward a healthier lifestyle—one step and one walk at a time.

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Rheb Esselstyn: 00:00:00

Ren I'm Rheb Esselstyn and you're listening to the Plan Strong podcast.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:00:05

Many of you have heard the notion that we were born to run.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:00:10

In fact, there was a book by Christopher McDougall called Born to Run and a whole movement around this premise.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:00:20

Now, what if I told you that the whole born to Run movement is just a big fat marketing gimmick and that we were actually born to walk instead?

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:00:34

Are you intrigued?

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:00:36

I was too.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:00:37

And today you're going to hear from the co author of the new book Born to the Broken Promises of the Running Boom and How to Slow down and Get Healthy One Step at a Time.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:00:51

Brad Kearns and his co author Mark Sisson challenge everything that I've ever learned about running.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:00:59

And instead they make the case for how walking is far less stressful, improves health, longevity, cognitive function, and even weight loss far more than running can.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:01:13

So let's start the year off on the right foot, right after this word from Plantstrong Foreign I imagine that most of you know about my background as a professional triathlete.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:03:30

This career.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:03:31

That was before my firefighting days took me all over the world to train and race in some of the most exotic and also brutal places on the planet.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:03:43

Thank goodness that I was fueled by plants, because that crazy level of training can also take a huge toll on your body.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:03:52

Now, my conversation today just happens to be with one of my old training and racing partners from those triathlon days, Brad Kearns.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:04:03

Now, together we we must have logged countless hours of training, and at the time we subscribed to the no pain, no gain theory of training.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:04:16

It was the philosophy at the time.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:04:21

Swim, bike and run as hard as you can, as long as you can.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:04:25

But the problem with that is it's unsustainable for career longevity and inevitably leads to injury, burnout and breakdown.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:04:36

In their new book, Born to Walk, authors Mark Sisson and Brad Kearns exposed the ruse that the running industry has also sold to us, which is we were all born to run.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:04:50

In fact, the last 50 years has seen a huge rise in the number of marathons and participants.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:04:57

The Chicago marathon had over 50,000 people, and most major marathons actually have a lottery system in place in order for you to nab a spot.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:05:07

Shoe companies are churning out heavily cushioned shoes and even super shoes with carbon plates.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:05:14

But you know what?

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:05:15

This has led to more injuries, especially in the recreational runners who may not have the muscular foundation to plod along for 26.2 miles.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:05:26

And it isn't always the weight loss machine that we dream of either running hard all the time.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:05:33

It stimulates our appetite and can actually encourage poor food choices and muscular breakdown.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:05:41

Instead, Brad and Mark suggest that the simple act of walking can improve aerobic conditioning the right way, avoid the risks of injury and burnout associated with running, and promote a healthy, happy, energetic, long life, one step at a time.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:06:01

It's a super provocative notion that really intrigued me and my co producer, Carrie Barrett, who is an avid marathoner.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:06:11

So I asked her to join me in this conversation about the new book, which comes out on January 7th.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:06:18

Now, Brad, mark and I may not agree on everything, especially including how to eat and what constitutes a healthy diet, but I certainly found myself nodding along in agreement on most of the points in this book.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:06:35

We dive deep on this one.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:06:36

But my biggest takeaway is this.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:06:39

So many of us think that we have to become a runner in order to get fit and healthy.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:06:45

And I know that this can be a huge barrier for many of us.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:06:49

And as Brad suggests, we were born to walk, and that is the greatest catalyst for physical and metabolic health.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:06:59

So join Carey and me as we welcome Brad Kearns, co author of Born to Walk.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:07:08

All right.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:07:09

I am here with my longtime triathlon buddy, Brad Kearns.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:07:14

Brad, welcome to the Plantstrong podcast.

Brad Kearns: 00:07:16

Oh, I'm so glad to be here in the studio.

Brad Kearns: 00:07:18

Speaking of long time, I was here about 30 plus years ago, and it's so fantastic to come and reminisce with my old boy Ripper and Carrie hanging out here.

Brad Kearns: 00:07:30

Thank you very much.

Brad Kearns: 00:07:31

But we got stuff to talk about and we're gonna hit it hard.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:07:36

We are.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:07:37

And you mentioned Carrie.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:07:39

So Kerry's the podcast producer and I haven't invited Carrie because of her love of all things kind of ultra endurance, and I thought she would appreciate this conversation and be a nice side host today.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:07:52

So thanks for joining, Carrie.

Carrie Barrett: 00:07:54

Thank you.

Carrie Barrett: 00:07:54

What an honor it is for me to be such a.

Carrie Barrett: 00:07:57

I am a tri nerd at heart.

Carrie Barrett: 00:07:59

I love the sport of triathlon.

Carrie Barrett: 00:08:00

I love the sport of running.

Carrie Barrett: 00:08:02

So to be sitting at the table with two legends of the sport, I'll take it well.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:08:07

most part between like I did: 1987

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:08:17

When did you compete hard?

Brad Kearns: 00:08:18

You outlasted me, man.

Brad Kearns: 00:08:20

It was 86 through 94, and that was nine seasons.

Brad Kearns: 00:08:24

And by the time I finished that, I felt like I was 80 years old.

Brad Kearns: 00:08:27

I was completely wiped out.

Brad Kearns: 00:08:29

I'd been getting my butt kicked for the last year.

Brad Kearns: 00:08:31

So it was a beautiful, graceful transition into real life.

Brad Kearns: 00:08:35

But it sure was fun, especially traveling around with you.

Brad Kearns: 00:08:38

And we knew how to make the most of our experience on the circuit and have some fun and also compete hard.

Brad Kearns: 00:08:48

So it was a great stint there.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:08:51

Yeah, well.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:08:52

And you were no slouch.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:08:53

I mean, at one point, you were ranked, I think, number three in the world in triathlons.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:08:59

So you reached the height of the sport in a big way.

Brad Kearns: 00:09:03

Yeah, it was pretty fun because it's so much work and so much training.

Brad Kearns: 00:09:07

And then you realize, as we were talking about just before we hit record record, like, I had given my heart and soul to this sport and tried as hard as I could to train as hard as I could every single day and go after these guys that were up ahead of me on the road.

Brad Kearns: 00:09:21

And at a certain point, you realize, okay, I'm exhausted.

Brad Kearns: 00:09:24

I'm devoting my entire life to this and I'm not getting faster.

Brad Kearns: 00:09:29

And that's when I had these great awakenings, thanks to mentors like Mark Allen, Mike Pig, Phil Maffetone, Andrew McNaughton, Mark Sisson.

Brad Kearns: 00:09:36

And we had to evolve our training approach to not just be flooring the gas pedal like a race car driver, but to actually understand the balance of stress and rest and the nuances of using your intuition to make good training decisions rather than just being the most competitive dude around.

Brad Kearns: 00:09:54

And I trained for half my career in Los Angeles, and it coincided.

Brad Kearns: 00:09:58

Moving to a small, rural Northern California town coincided with me improving a lot on the circuit, because in la, every single workout was hardcore.

Brad Kearns: 00:10:07

You'd show up on the Saturday bike ride with 60 guys wanting to kick your ass.

Brad Kearns: 00:10:12

And so you just get into this excessive competitive scene and an unregulated competitive intensity.

Brad Kearns: 00:10:20

And guess what happens?

Brad Kearns: 00:10:21

You go to these races and you get disappointed.

Brad Kearns: 00:10:24

And so it was really great to learn about regulating energy and doing things correctly and not having to suffer and struggle to get better.

Brad Kearns: 00:10:35

The body likes, you know, a graceful training concept where you're.

Brad Kearns: 00:10:41

You're under the radar and you're not constantly fatiguing yourself every day.

Brad Kearns: 00:10:44

And we're going to get into this more because we're going to talk about the book.

Brad Kearns: 00:10:47

But for everyone out there who's a fitness enthusiast, we've been socialized and programmed and marketed to in a way that in many cases has created an adverse impact on people's mentality and their habits, because we've been told that you have to pound that bicycle and then be soaked in a pool of sweat after in order for it to be qualified as a legitimate workout.

Brad Kearns: 00:11:11

And it's completely off base, especially for people who are novice or recreational.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:11:17

Well, okay, we're gonna, we're gonna dive more into that for sure.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:11:20

I want people to know that you also, you're a true kindred spirit when it comes to.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:11:26

It's amazing how you and I have taken very similar paths as far as kind of being health advocates, being authors, having podcasts, loving to like continue in our, you know, I'm 61.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:11:41

How old are you?

Brad Kearns: 00:11:42

59.

Brad Kearns: 00:11:42

Almost 59.

Brad Kearns: 00:11:44

Watch out, 60 plus fish.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:11:46

But we still love to compete.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:11:48

We love adventures.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:11:50

So you and your buddy Mark Sisson have written a new, I think, very disruptive book.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:11:57

It is going to turn a lot of heads.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:12:00

It's going to make people question what they've been doing for a long time.

Brad Kearns: 00:12:04

And it's called what Born to Walk.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:12:07

So I don't know about you, Carrie.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:12:10

Brad, I read Born to run by Christopher McDougal.

Brad Kearns: 00:12:13

Great book.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:12:14

,: 2009

Brad Kearns: 00:12:16

Yeah.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:12:17

And I loved it.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:12:19

I soaked it up.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:12:19

You know my buddy Scott Jurek, you know plant based wonder boy?

Brad Kearns: 00:12:23

I know him.

Brad Kearns: 00:12:24

Yeah.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:12:24

Running with these Tarahumara Indians, I think.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:12:27

Was it a hundred mile race that they did or 50?

Brad Kearns: 00:12:29

Yeah, they did these super long races.

Brad Kearns: 00:12:31

The primitive living Tarahumara and Copper Canyons of Mexico are running as their lifestyle.

Brad Kearns: 00:12:38

And the book was some westerners, elite ultra runners coming down to join them and learn about their culture and do their races.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:12:47

Yeah, but so you've kind of, so you've directly challenged kind of that book Born to Run with Born to Walk.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:12:53

And so why don't we start with the whole running phenomenon that you say, you guys say is a ruse.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:13:04

It's a big ruse and it's unhealthy and there's a better way for people to stay healthy.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:13:12

So why don't you start with maybe like what is the background of how did running become so popular in this country And.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:13:21

Yeah.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:13:22

And why?

Brad Kearns: 00:13:22

Yeah, good, good, good setup, good questions.

Brad Kearns: 00:13:25

And the book is definitely disruptive and the title's kind of tongue in cheek to the other book, but I think time we converse a little bit, we'll come to a beautiful recalibration of some of the notions that we've taken for granted or that have been pushed down our throats.

Brad Kearns: 00:13:42

And it's beautiful that America's getting fitter and fitter and the participation in the events is bigger than ever.

Brad Kearns: 00:13:49

When we were doing triathlons, people would be like, so what are the three events Again, it was completely off of the mainstream awareness.

Brad Kearns: 00:13:57

And now it's an Olympic sport and everybody knows about marathon races in their town and they watch the things on tv.

Brad Kearns: 00:14:05

So, you know, the growth of fitness is wonderful.

Brad Kearns: 00:14:07

But I think there's a better way than the struggling and suffering that I mentioned a little bit.

Brad Kearns: 00:14:12

And so you asked me, how is the running boom built on misinformation, misinterpretation, fabrication and all that.

Brad Kearns: 00:14:22

And so what we're looking at in modern times is the explosion of endurance.

Brad Kearns: 00:14:27

Running as a popular mass participation sport dates back around 50 years.

Brad Kearns: 00:14:31

winning the gold in Munich in: 1972

Brad Kearns: 00:14:40

It was amazing.

Brad Kearns: 00:14:41

And then Jim Fix wrote the book about running, the Complete Book of Running.

Brad Kearns: 00:14:46

And, you know, races like the Boston Marathon started to explode in popularity and it, you know, goes on year after year.

Brad Kearns: 00:14:57

More things come up and one of the main ones was Nike inventing the elevated cushioned waffle soled shoe.

Brad Kearns: 00:15:05

So prior to that, if you want to be a long distance runner, you had to wear a really crappy shoe that didn't have padding or cushion and be so well adapted as, you know, quite an athletic specimen in order to run down the road for six miles without your feet falling apart and your calves seizing up.

Brad Kearns: 00:15:23

And so before the 70s, runners, quote unquote, were very fast.

Brad Kearns: 00:15:28

They were super lean, super athletic, and they were generally coming from the high school, college ranks.

Brad Kearns: 00:15:34

And that was it.

Brad Kearns: 00:15:36

There wasn't joggers in your neighborhood huffing and puffing along, carrying extra weight and trying to get in shape.

Brad Kearns: 00:15:41

It did not exist at all.

Brad Kearns: 00:15:43

And you can look at like participation numbers of the Boston Marathon.

Brad Kearns: 00:15:46

know, Hundreds entered since: 1896

Brad Kearns: 00:15:51

Oh, it's a tradition like no other.

Brad Kearns: 00:15:53

It's the hundredth anniversary.

Brad Kearns: 00:15:54

Now it's the hundred and something.

Brad Kearns: 00:15:55

But this was just a smattering of really freaky people out on the edge doing this crazy thing.

Brad Kearns: 00:16:01

But then in the 70s, when the, the shoes came along, now people could put on these shoes, respond to the amazing Nike advertising, like, just do it.

Brad Kearns: 00:16:09

And before that, the slogan was there is no finish line.

Brad Kearns: 00:16:11

And people could feel inspired watching the USA guy on TV and they themselves think about participating in a 10K.

Brad Kearns: 00:16:18

And I started running in high school to join the high school team and we'd go to the weekend events and there was, you know, hundreds if not thousands of people doing these endurance runs for the first time.

Brad Kearns: 00:16:31

The ruse is that it's Something that supports general overall health longevity because it's such a difficult sport that in many cases, if not most cases right now, it's too stressful to really be promoting of health.

Brad Kearns: 00:16:49

So what it does is it sets you up for a pattern of breakdown, burnout, illness and injury because it's too strenuous for the average person who's sitting at a desk all day or leading a largely sedentary lifestyle to take off and actually do the human gait pattern of running.

Brad Kearns: 00:17:05

We're going to talk about why walking is better, but that's one of us.

Brad Kearns: 00:17:07

Running is a very, very difficult sport.

Brad Kearns: 00:17:10

We can gauge this by what heart rate is reading on your watch.

Brad Kearns: 00:17:16

When you're going even at a slow jog, you are probably exceeding what would be considered an aerobic heart rate or a comfortably paced heart rate and drifting into a workout that can be categorized as stressful and lightly anaerobic and glucose burning than fat burning.

Brad Kearns: 00:17:32

And all those things that we have to be really careful about because it's going to make us tired, exhausted and injured.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:17:38

st mentioned it, but up until: 1964

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:17:50

Now you have to qualify.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:17:51

There's thousands of thousands.

Brad Kearns: 00:17:52

New York City just had a record of 54,000 or something.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:17:55

Incredible.

Brad Kearns: 00:17:57

It's like a whole city running a marathon.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:17:59

And so another thing that you and Mark talk about in the book is how the whole 26.2 is basically a fabrication.

Brad Kearns: 00:18:06

I'm glad you brought that up because I didn't know the extent of this until we did all this research.

Brad Kearns: 00:18:12

the modern day Olympic Games,: 1896

Brad Kearns: 00:18:18

They say, hey, let's honor the amazing Greek soldier Pheidippides who as legend has it, ran from the city of Athens to the city of Marathon to Athens to report news of victory.

Brad Kearns: 00:18:30

He said nike Nike nenikayam, which means rejoice, we conquer.

Brad Kearns: 00:18:34

And then he dropped dead.

Brad Kearns: 00:18:35

That's the legend of Pheidippides, the amazing runner.

Brad Kearns: 00:18:37

And that was the inspiration for the modern 26 mile marathon was the distance from Marathon to Athens.

Brad Kearns: 00:18:43

The problem is it never happened.

Brad Kearns: 00:18:46

It was a complete fabrication.

Brad Kearns: 00:18:48

And it came from an: 1879

Brad Kearns: 00:18:59

So Pheidippides was a true historical figure in Greece.

Brad Kearns: 00:19:03

He was a hemero dromi.

Brad Kearns: 00:19:05

A hemero dromus is a Messenger soldier.

Brad Kearns: 00:19:08

So the most elite.

Brad Kearns: 00:19:09

It's like the Navy seals or the Green Berets, the most elite performers in the army.

Brad Kearns: 00:19:16

They selected some of these guys to be foot messengers because they could beat a horse over hilly terrain with a message and get an advantage in battle.

Brad Kearns: 00:19:24

So this guy, Pheidippides, his job was to run for the army.

Brad Kearns: 00:19:28

And in truth, what he did was when the Athenians needed help from the Spartans for a major battle, he ran 153 miles in 36 hours to Sparta.

Brad Kearns: 00:19:43

Asked them for help in the battle, and they said, oh, we're on holiday.

Brad Kearns: 00:19:46

Sorry we can't help.

Brad Kearns: 00:19:48

So he rested a little bit and turned around and ran back another 153 miles in 36 hours.

Brad Kearns: 00:19:54

So a total of 72.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:19:55

Like Harvey Lewis.

Brad Kearns: 00:19:56

Yeah, he ran 306 miles.

Carrie Barrett: 00:19:58

All right, we're changing the distance of the marathon.

Carrie Barrett: 00:20:01

It's now 300 mile.

Brad Kearns: 00:20:02

If you want to honor fidipides truly, marathon should be.

Brad Kearns: 00:20:07

We could say it should be 153, you know, so Dean Carnassis wrote a whole book about this, and he recreated fidipidity's journey.

Brad Kearns: 00:20:16

There's an actual competition or an organized event where they run 153 miles.

Brad Kearns: 00:20:21

And he tried to use the same food as Phidipidi, so he had dried figs and salami and this whole thing.

Brad Kearns: 00:20:27

But he.

Brad Kearns: 00:20:28

He unwound the legend from.

Brad Kearns: 00:20:30

From what was really true.

Brad Kearns: 00:20:31

And I bring up the story.

Brad Kearns: 00:20:33

It's kind of fascinating that it never happened because everything's calibrated on this amazing accomplishment of 26.2 miles.

Brad Kearns: 00:20:40

And you finish and you get a tattoo on your body that says 26.2 or you get a sticker on your car.

Brad Kearns: 00:20:45

But it has nothing to do with, like, a true athletic accomplishment honoring some ancestor.

Brad Kearns: 00:20:53

And it's kind of like the Iron man rip.

Carrie Barrett: 00:20:55

I was gonna bring that up.

Carrie Barrett: 00:20:56

I mean, like, to talk about the.

Brad Kearns: 00:20:58

Iron man was it started with a bunch of drunk sailors at an awards banquet for the Waikiki rough water swim.

Brad Kearns: 00:21:07

And they were arguing, what's the toughest event in the Hawaiian islands?

Brad Kearns: 00:21:10

Is it the 2.4 mile Waikiki swim?

Brad Kearns: 00:21:12

Is it the 112 mile bicycle ride around Oahu?

Brad Kearns: 00:21:14

Or is it the Honolulu Marathon?

Brad Kearns: 00:21:16

And someone said, well, someone who could do all three in the same day would really be an iron man.

Brad Kearns: 00:21:21

And the next year, 13 people did it.

Brad Kearns: 00:21:24

But it's like, so what?

Brad Kearns: 00:21:27

And I argue today, especially in triathlon world, the pace that most people compete at and the lifestyle that most people lead, if ironman were half ironman, we'd all be better off.

Brad Kearns: 00:21:40

And if the marathon were 13.1 miles, that is a long ass way to run.

Brad Kearns: 00:21:45

It takes a lot of training, it takes a lot of devotion, and you just finished 13 miles of running, that would be fantastic.

Brad Kearns: 00:21:53

We don't need 26 for any reason except for watching these amazing Olympic runners like Frank Shorter and the rest of them excel.

Brad Kearns: 00:22:02

But we miss the heights and weights of the great legends of running.

Brad Kearns: 00:22:06

And it's like they're all these featherweight, extreme genetic freaks that we are trying to be inspired by and model with.

Brad Kearns: 00:22:14

Competing in the same race.

Brad Kearns: 00:22:16

Now, it's cool to get on the same starting line.

Brad Kearns: 00:22:18

And in triathlon, it's fun.

Brad Kearns: 00:22:19

Like, everyone lines up on the same starting line and does the same race.

Brad Kearns: 00:22:22

But like, we shouldn't be trying to emulate the athletic performance of someone who's 5, 10, 1, 34.

Brad Kearns: 00:22:29

That was Frank Shorter, Sifaan Hassan, if you watch the Olympics in Paris, the most versatile and one of the greatest female athletes of all time.

Brad Kearns: 00:22:37

She's: 57108

Brad Kearns: 00:22:40

And we go on and on.

Brad Kearns: 00:22:41

The Olympic gold medalist from Atlanta, 96 thugwani from South Africa, he's 5:2 and weighs 99 pounds.

Brad Kearns: 00:22:48

The guy who won the gold in the marathon.

Brad Kearns: 00:22:51

So for comparison or for inspiration, maybe everyone should be striving for 13.1 or perhaps even running.

Brad Kearns: 00:22:59

Completing a 10k is an amazing accomplishment, and it doesn't have that extreme, overly stressful element of needing to train that much.

Carrie Barrett: 00:23:08

I think that that's just it.

Carrie Barrett: 00:23:09

It doesn't have that extreme.

Carrie Barrett: 00:23:10

Because I do think that, like, I know in the world of Ironman, 70.3 races are incredibly popular.

Carrie Barrett: 00:23:18

Like, they keep increasing the amount of races.

Carrie Barrett: 00:23:21

And by 70.3 races, I mean, half Ironmans, half marathons are also incredibly popular.

Carrie Barrett: 00:23:29

So they are popular, but you just, it's like you don't earn the tattoo, so to speak, that you do.

Brad Kearns: 00:23:36

When you do, it's in the background.

Brad Kearns: 00:23:37

Like, so are you planning a full one?

Brad Kearns: 00:23:40

You know, you finish and get congratulated.

Brad Kearns: 00:23:41

Are you planning a full one someday?

Brad Kearns: 00:23:43

Like, this is.

Brad Kearns: 00:23:44

Isn't enough.

Carrie Barrett: 00:23:44

Are you gonna go to Kona?

Carrie Barrett: 00:23:46

Have you done Kona?

Carrie Barrett: 00:23:47

You know, everyone just like, have you done that one in Hawaii?

Carrie Barrett: 00:23:49

Yeah, Well, I, I will say, just as I started to read the book, and you do open with a lot of the stuff that you've just talked about and the big ruse and how we're gunning for so much and we're, you know, why are we doing this?

Carrie Barrett: 00:24:04

And I was Like I was a little bristled, which is what you were going for.

Carrie Barrett: 00:24:08

Like the hair on my just.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:24:11

She came in here before you were here.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:24:12

She's like, I'm.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:24:13

I'm angry, traumatized.

Carrie Barrett: 00:24:14

I was like, I've got, I've got to figure out a way to be.

Carrie Barrett: 00:24:18

Because, because it was so my entry point into running was I was overweight, I was unhealthy, I was brand new to Austin.

Brad Kearns: 00:24:32

Oh, well, don't even say anymore.

Brad Kearns: 00:24:35

You're in Austin.

Brad Kearns: 00:24:35

You have to go around the trail.

Carrie Barrett: 00:24:37

Around the lake, you have to do something.

Brad Kearns: 00:24:38

You can't drive somewhere.

Carrie Barrett: 00:24:39

Yeah.

Carrie Barrett: 00:24:40

So it became.

Carrie Barrett: 00:24:41

So running a marathon was not, you know, it did become a goal, but it was for me, it was so much more about meeting people, having self esteem, building self pride, changing some really difficult habits that I needed to get rid of, and really adopting new habits.

Carrie Barrett: 00:25:03

And so when I'm reading, like, yeah, you've been duped.

Carrie Barrett: 00:25:06

I'm like, no, I haven't, have I?

Carrie Barrett: 00:25:09

But like, but, but as the book goes on, I understand where you're going with all of this.

Carrie Barrett: 00:25:18

We all fall prey to marketing tactics.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:25:20

Well, you know what's funny is that so you and I did the triathlons hardcore.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:25:26

You know, we did half Ironmans.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:25:28

We did Ironmans.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:25:30

And I look back on it and I agree with so much of what you write about in the book.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:25:36

I found it ultimately to be very destructive as opposed to constructive.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:25:43

Right.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:25:44

In the grand scheme of things.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:25:47

And I think we need to get a different mentality around what it means to just kind of set goals for yourself.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:25:57

And what are those goals?

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:25:58

What do they look like?

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:25:59

And not have them be based upon these myths about 26.2 or what is an Ironman?

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:26:07

And I mean, who in this, who with a husband or a wife and a family and a job can literally train for an Ironman triathlon without something breaking?

Brad Kearns: 00:26:20

Again, this endurance stuff, like you're reporting a success story and you did things for the right reasons and it changed your life and all that.

Brad Kearns: 00:26:28

You're going for a very narrow pie slice of what broad based functional fitness for longevity is, which is what most people would, would agree with.

Brad Kearns: 00:26:36

Oh, that, that's my goal.

Brad Kearns: 00:26:37

That sounds great.

Brad Kearns: 00:26:37

And so you got your endurance handled.

Brad Kearns: 00:26:39

Now if you cut your mileage in half, I'm speaking to everybody, not just you, you still have an A plus in endurance with that narrow pie slice.

Brad Kearns: 00:26:47

But if we really want to expand what it means to be like fit and active and live an adventurous life like Ripper described, we're going to look at strength, we're going to look at mobility, we're going to look at unstructured play for the brain and more things that most endurance enthusiasts don't have the time or energy for because so much of their energy is going toward making a bigger pie slice and improving their time in the 13.1 from 2 hours to an hour 47 or whatever the obsession becomes.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:27:19

You know what?

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:27:21

I love this conversation.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:27:22

I want to kind of transition it to.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:27:26

You have a chapter in here called the Obligate Runner.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:27:29

And I think that you self identify now and as a kind of a triathlete endurance runner.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:27:37

And so will you explain what the obligate runner is?

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:27:40

Because I'm sure there's a lot of people that are listening that after you, after they hear your description of it will go, wow, that's me.

Brad Kearns: 00:27:49

If you're listening, please pull over to the side of the road, slow down to a walk if you're listening on your workout.

Brad Kearns: 00:27:57

But the obligate runner was actually a term coined by a psychologist with a study way back in the 70s in Arizona.

Brad Kearns: 00:28:05

And they drew a corollary to the anorexic.

Brad Kearns: 00:28:08

And they threw in a lot of symptoms of addiction as applied to one's athletic obsession of endurance running.

Brad Kearns: 00:28:17

And so I think a lot of exercisers and fitness people can relate.

Brad Kearns: 00:28:21

Like if you miss your workout, do you feel shitty that day and agitated?

Brad Kearns: 00:28:26

And you're no fun to be around at work or at the home because you didn't have time to get your workout in.

Brad Kearns: 00:28:31

And so one of the hallmarks of addiction is you need your fix to get to level, not to get that wonderful high with your friends and the camaraderie.

Brad Kearns: 00:28:39

And afterward we went to breakfast tacos and I had a great Sunday morning, much better than sleeping in.

Brad Kearns: 00:28:44

That's not what we're talking about.

Brad Kearns: 00:28:45

We're talking about a point where you've crossed that line and you need it just to feel normal and then perhaps become obsessed about performance, performance to the extent that you're disappointed if you don't perform up to standard.

Brad Kearns: 00:29:00

And I mean, I think we all wrestled with this when we were training and racing at the extreme level in triathlon.

Brad Kearns: 00:29:05

Like I was pissed when I got ninth instead of top three.

Brad Kearns: 00:29:08

And you go home, you know, on the airplane wondering about the future of your life and what are you doing spending all this time and energy.

Brad Kearns: 00:29:14

It wasn't a fun, enjoyable trip to the Caribbean where we went for a beautiful swim in the clear water.

Brad Kearns: 00:29:19

It's nor like God dang it.

Brad Kearns: 00:29:21

You know what's going on.

Carrie Barrett: 00:29:23

But your paychecks also depended on it too.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:29:25

Yeah, there was so much tied into that.

Brad Kearns: 00:29:28

You know when you get tightly wound to the extent that it's not all about camaraderie and self esteem and all those beautiful checkpoints that you mentioned, that's when one has crossed over to something that's same with like, hey, I like going out drinking on the weekends in Austin.

Brad Kearns: 00:29:45

I go to that second street.

Brad Kearns: 00:29:46

Is that what it's called?

Brad Kearns: 00:29:47

Where all the houses are?

Brad Kearns: 00:29:48

Oh, it's so fun.

Brad Kearns: 00:29:49

It's fantastic.

Brad Kearns: 00:29:50

I do it every weekend and I stay out till two or three and my Sunday's pretty much ruined and so is my Monday.

Brad Kearns: 00:29:56

That's when you've crossed the line with something that's, you know, too much instant gratification and pursuit of that runner's high.

Brad Kearns: 00:30:02

And when we talk about what is the runner's high?

Brad Kearns: 00:30:04

The endorphins that flood the bloodstream.

Brad Kearns: 00:30:07

Yeah, it's a, it's feel good chemicals that are released in response to a really grueling and extreme effort.

Brad Kearns: 00:30:14

And everyone, you can look it up on, Google it and read a bunch of articles about the endorphin high.

Brad Kearns: 00:30:20

But we have to remember that the reason the chemicals are released, that the pain killing chemicals, it's really to, it's literally to give you a peaceful death.

Brad Kearns: 00:30:33

And so when you're in real trouble, this is in a primal context where we're running for our lives and we're not going to make it, or the zebra's not going to make it and the lion's coming after him.

Brad Kearns: 00:30:45

The zebra lies down and releases a bunch of endorphins so that they die without the anguish of getting eaten.

Brad Kearns: 00:30:51

And same with the human, the endorphins are coming because we've pushed ourselves so hard that we're flooding the bloodstream with chemicals in order to keep going if we need to run for our lives or to just kind of help us cross over because it is so painful and grueling and strenuous.

Brad Kearns: 00:31:11

So it's something that, that once in a while a rush of painkilling chemicals and feel good chemicals can be a wonderful thing.

Brad Kearns: 00:31:19

So let's say you do a bucket list event and you train and train and train and then you complete that 13.1 mile and you feel great and you're awash in these chemicals.

Brad Kearns: 00:31:28

And then the next week you recover and you go back to work and you go to preschool and volunteer in your kids class and you have a balanced wonderful and rich life without going for that drug high again and again and again.

Brad Kearns: 00:31:39

Otherwise it becomes obligate runner addiction.

Brad Kearns: 00:31:42

And the corollary between anorexics is that's all about control and also kind of a way to assert one's superiority over the community or the society around them.

Brad Kearns: 00:31:54

So anorexics have so much control over food, most people want to lose weight and quit eating so much.

Brad Kearns: 00:32:00

There's the opposite extreme and the runners are existing in a society where we don't, don't do enough activity and we, we eat too much.

Brad Kearns: 00:32:08

So it's kind of like, okay, I've broken free from the clutches of unhealthy society and now I'm a runner and I'm taking that all the way to the bank to the potential detriment of my health.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:32:19

Right.

Carrie Barrett: 00:32:20

Wow.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:32:21

I had any of that ring true or.

Carrie Barrett: 00:32:23

Yes, I have a prime example of my own experience where several years ago now, probably 10, 12 years ago, I was training for an ironman and my husband and I were going to go to Asheville, North Carolina for the weekend and just a romantic getaway.

Carrie Barrett: 00:32:43

That's really what it was.

Carrie Barrett: 00:32:44

However, I also had a sentry ride on my plan and so he like, we rent, we booked bike rentals, we had a 100 mile route planned out and everything like it was good to go except it rained all weekend in, in Asheville and I melted down like a three year old child all weekend long and I couldn't get out of my own head about my, my training is ruined, my race is ruined, I should just be back in Austin where it's sunny and I could do my bike ride and I took what could have been a perfectly romantic, relaxing getaway to just recharge and I ruined it.

Carrie Barrett: 00:33:30

And I am forever regretful of how I behaved that weekend.

Carrie Barrett: 00:33:34

And I think that that is an example of what you're talking about, of just like taking this to these extreme addictions.

Brad Kearns: 00:33:40

Yeah, I mean look, you're not going to succeed in life unless you become a badass.

Brad Kearns: 00:33:45

It's very competitive out there in career world, fitness world, getting your life together and doing good decisions.

Brad Kearns: 00:33:52

And so you have all these attributes like driven, focused, motivated, goal directed, all that stuff.

Brad Kearns: 00:33:58

And you applied it.

Brad Kearns: 00:33:59

When you describe your story of turning away those bad habits and picking up good habits.

Brad Kearns: 00:34:03

So all these success factors are very, very important.

Brad Kearns: 00:34:06

And if we just sit back and say, hey, we should go to the beach every day and relax and not worry about contributing to the economy or really getting too involved in parenting, just let Your kids grow up and do whatever they want.

Brad Kearns: 00:34:17

You know, that's not going to work either.

Brad Kearns: 00:34:19

So it's about harnessing things like competitive drive, like I described my own competitive drive that was out of control.

Brad Kearns: 00:34:25

It's about harnessing that stuff and using it to.

Brad Kearns: 00:34:29

To make for a better life and learning from experience.

Brad Kearns: 00:34:32

Thanks for sharing that story because it's, you know, it's pretty heavy.

Brad Kearns: 00:34:37

I think it's a positive takeaway is like, that's probably not going to happen on your next romantic getaway.

Brad Kearns: 00:34:42

Okay, so I'm too old.

Carrie Barrett: 00:34:45

We don't have this anymore.

Brad Kearns: 00:34:46

You know, it's what the book's about.

Brad Kearns: 00:34:47

Like, look, there's a right way to do it.

Brad Kearns: 00:34:50

We just need to chill out a little bit, start absorbing things like the appropriate heart rate to train at if you haven't endurance goals and not getting down that path of obligate runner.

Brad Kearns: 00:35:02

And all the fallout that comes from an extreme approach.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:35:07

The first half of the book is about the unintended consequences of the running boom.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:35:11

So I want to finish talking about a couple points that you make in the book on that, and then I'd love to transition to the running shoe and the minimalist footwear, because I think that is absolutely fascinating and it's something that I personally want to explore with my footwear.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:35:34

So you talk about the broken promise of weight loss and that running, in fact, is not the best thing for weight loss.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:35:42

And it's walking that seems so counterintuitive to me.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:35:45

So help me understand that.

Brad Kearns: 00:35:46

Yeah, it's crazy, huh?

Brad Kearns: 00:35:48

I think we're now learning the message is coming strongly about the scientists call it the compensation theory of exercise, where we're, you know, we're unwinding this calories in, calories out notion that's really deeply flawed and not applicable to real life, even though it's scientifically, of course, it's the.

Brad Kearns: 00:36:08

It's actually.

Brad Kearns: 00:36:08

Calories burned versus calories stored is how you're going to establish your body composition that's different than calories consumed because the body does different things with a plant strong soup versus a Twinkie.

Brad Kearns: 00:36:21

Right.

Brad Kearns: 00:36:21

Even though there says 248 calories rip, it's the same a Twinkie.

Brad Kearns: 00:36:25

What's the big deal?

Brad Kearns: 00:36:26

It's calories burned versus calories stored.

Brad Kearns: 00:36:28

But beyond that, there's so many variables that affect your metabolic function and your daily rate of calorie burning.

Brad Kearns: 00:36:36

And the body is really, really good at conserving energy and surviving.

Brad Kearns: 00:36:41

It's all genetically programmed survival mechanisms.

Brad Kearns: 00:36:44

And so most listeners are Aware.

Brad Kearns: 00:36:46

Like if you go on a crash diet, guess what?

Brad Kearns: 00:36:48

Your metabolism slows down when you lose muscle mass, causing your metabolism to slow down further.

Brad Kearns: 00:36:53

And all those bad things.

Brad Kearns: 00:36:54

When it comes to running and burning exercise calories to the extent that your pattern is overly stressful, or Mark Sisson calls it chronic cardio, what happens is you become lazier throughout the rest of the day and you eat more food than you normally would because your appetite center has been dysregulated due to the exhausting and depleting nature of the workout.

Brad Kearns: 00:37:17

So if you're depleting your glycogen, that's your storage of carbs versus the fat stores you have, which you have plenty.

Brad Kearns: 00:37:24

You can run three or four or five or six marathons in a row.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:37:27

I've heard of the moon and back.

Brad Kearns: 00:37:29

With your fat storage.

Brad Kearns: 00:37:30

66,000 calories.

Brad Kearns: 00:37:32

That would get me to Oklahoma.

Brad Kearns: 00:37:33

My goodness.

Brad Kearns: 00:37:34

Gosh darn, that's a long way from Austin, son.

Brad Kearns: 00:37:37

So if you're continually depleting your glycogen stores like an elite athlete that you talked about earlier, you're going to be hitting that, that fridge not for plants strong, but for Ben and Jerry's.

Brad Kearns: 00:37:50

And it puts you into this cycle of.

Brad Kearns: 00:37:53

When I say lazier, I'm talking about consciously and subconsciously.

Brad Kearns: 00:37:58

So lazier.

Brad Kearns: 00:37:59

I'm not raking the leaves today because I ran a quick 10 around the lake.

Brad Kearns: 00:38:02

I'll do it some other day or hire someone.

Brad Kearns: 00:38:05

And then subconsciously.

Brad Kearns: 00:38:07

Hey, can you get me another stack of post it notes?

Brad Kearns: 00:38:11

I'm too lazy to walk 12ft down the hall.

Brad Kearns: 00:38:15

I'm going to call up my neighbor in the next cubicle.

Brad Kearns: 00:38:18

And so the running kind of turns into a net zero in terms of the calories that you think you're burning for weight loss.

Brad Kearns: 00:38:27

So fat metabolism, fat reduction is about hormone optimization.

Brad Kearns: 00:38:32

I'm sure you guys have talked about this a lot of times on the show.

Brad Kearns: 00:38:34

It's not just about eating less and exercising more.

Brad Kearns: 00:38:38

You're going to get yourself into real trouble.

Brad Kearns: 00:38:39

The female story is really coming out now because the extreme crossfitters that go ketogenic diet and are slamming these high glycolytic workouts four days a week.

Brad Kearns: 00:38:50

They throw off their thyroid, they throw off their adrenals, they start, you know, getting.

Brad Kearns: 00:38:55

Their gums get all receding and their hair falls out and all kinds of terrible things happen when you push the body too hard and don't nourish it properly.

Carrie Barrett: 00:39:03

Yeah, yeah, no, that, that, that rings true.

Carrie Barrett: 00:39:05

And so if I'm understanding you Correctly, running can be corrosive because of the metabolic effect that it has.

Carrie Barrett: 00:39:16

So it does raise cortisol, which is our stress hormone.

Carrie Barrett: 00:39:20

And if we have stress in all areas of our life, stress is.

Carrie Barrett: 00:39:25

Stress is stress.

Carrie Barrett: 00:39:26

Right?

Carrie Barrett: 00:39:27

So like, yes, I can go out and just hammer a 10 mile run or not even hammer it, even if I'm just moderately too fast, as you're saying, like that is corrosive on my body.

Carrie Barrett: 00:39:38

That is that, that releases cortisol.

Carrie Barrett: 00:39:41

And then when I get home and I've got Ripper calling me and I've got this happening, I've got that.

Carrie Barrett: 00:39:46

So like the stress just continues to.

Brad Kearns: 00:39:48

Come the way you said Ripper calling you.

Brad Kearns: 00:39:50

So that's like a calming, relaxing.

Carrie Barrett: 00:39:52

Yeah, yeah, no, you're right.

Brad Kearns: 00:39:53

Hey, want to do our meditation, our five minute thing after your run?

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:39:56

Hey, what podcast we got scheduled this week?

Carrie Barrett: 00:40:00

And who am I interviewing in an hour?

Carrie Barrett: 00:40:02

No, but your body physiology physiologically just cannot recover from that.

Carrie Barrett: 00:40:08

And then if you go out and do the same workout the next day now you're really in a deficit.

Carrie Barrett: 00:40:13

So that's one form of what you're talking about now of why running actually isn't as healthy as we think it is, because we just, we're not regulating it or periodizing it, so to speak.

Carrie Barrett: 00:40:27

If I could use that coachy coach term to where it's beneficial for our metabolic health.

Brad Kearns: 00:40:33

Yeah.

Brad Kearns: 00:40:34

And how do we get really good at fat burning?

Brad Kearns: 00:40:37

By moving around a lot throughout the day.

Brad Kearns: 00:40:39

And this is evolutionary biology.

Brad Kearns: 00:40:42

The Homo sapien species is designed for frequent everyday movement.

Brad Kearns: 00:40:48

I mean, one quote is near non stop everyday movement.

Brad Kearns: 00:40:52

And that's the study with the hadza in Tanzania, the modern day hunter gatherers, which give us a lot of window into our past and our genetic optimization.

Brad Kearns: 00:41:00

They move all day long.

Brad Kearns: 00:41:02

The lion is another species.

Brad Kearns: 00:41:04

Leopantera is called the lion.

Brad Kearns: 00:41:07

Genetics warrant sleeping for around 20 hours a day and launching brief all out 30 second attacks at sunset.

Brad Kearns: 00:41:16

They don't move around during the day because they don't regulate heat well.

Brad Kearns: 00:41:19

So the lion living its best life is sleeping around for 20 hours a day, launching an attack and then after an attack.

Brad Kearns: 00:41:26

And they feast.

Brad Kearns: 00:41:27

They will be known to sleep for up to 24 hours.

Brad Kearns: 00:41:29

Hours.

Brad Kearns: 00:41:30

That's the optimal genetic experience for the lion.

Brad Kearns: 00:41:33

The human needs to avoid prolonged periods of stillness.

Brad Kearns: 00:41:36

There's research showing that when you're still for as little as 20 minutes, you have a noticeable decrease in glucose regulation and insulin sensitivity.

Brad Kearns: 00:41:47

You become insulin resistant.

Brad Kearns: 00:41:49

Sitting for 20 minutes and your brain function goes down.

Brad Kearns: 00:41:52

The research from Stanford and elsewhere showing that you can only focus on a peak cognitive task for 20 minutes at a time and then you fade a little.

Brad Kearns: 00:42:00

So if you don't give yourself a break, you'll find yourself going on YouTube and watching high jump videos.

Brad Kearns: 00:42:06

So it's.

Brad Kearns: 00:42:06

We warrant frequent breaks for movement and that is the best for fat burning and fat good fat metabolism along with getting rid of crappy stuff from your diet that interrupt fat metabolism that has nothing to do with how many calories you're burning running around the lathe.

Brad Kearns: 00:42:23

And then the other point if I keep rambling about the cortisol is like if your workout patterns are overly stressful and you have this chronic, overly stressful, chronic overproduction of stress hormones.

Brad Kearns: 00:42:36

One of the things that drives is the accumulation of the health destructive visceral fat.

Brad Kearns: 00:42:41

I just heard you talking about this on around the organs, right?

Brad Kearns: 00:42:44

And so there's subcutaneous fat, which is unpleasant.

Brad Kearns: 00:42:47

We don't like our, how our, how our butt looks now.

Brad Kearns: 00:42:50

We're too fat fat.

Brad Kearns: 00:42:51

But the visceral fat around the organs is extremely problematic where the subcutaneous fat is not known to be a huge gigantic health risk by itself.

Brad Kearns: 00:42:59

Deepak Chopra talks about that a lot because he's a little chubby himself.

Brad Kearns: 00:43:02

But the visceral fat, when you start getting that, that, that, that spare tire that is messing up your hormones, it's messing up your fat burning, it's releasing these inflammatory chemicals into the bloodstream.

Brad Kearns: 00:43:15

It's a disaster.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:43:16

Yeah, it's interesting.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:43:18

The seventh pillar of kind of the whole plant strong program is movement.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:43:22

And I'm a huge fan of walking.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:43:24

I wrote about it in the Engine 27 Day Rescue Diet.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:43:29

Even just 10 minutes, it's amazing what just 10 minutes can do.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:43:31

You know this.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:43:33

But where I'm going with this is I just saw a study, it's called the Global burden of Death.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:43:38

And it talked about how the fourth leading cause of death now worldwide is lack of physical activity behind, behind high blood pressure, behind smoking.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:43:50

And number three was heart disease, high blood sugar levels.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:43:55

So number four.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:43:57

So this is why I love what you and Mark are doing with this book Born to Walk.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:44:04

Explain this to me.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:44:05

You say that running is catabolic and walking is anabolic.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:44:09

What does that mean exactly?

Brad Kearns: 00:44:11

So we talked about the.

Brad Kearns: 00:44:13

You talked about the catabolic.

Brad Kearns: 00:44:15

You said the term corrosive.

Brad Kearns: 00:44:16

I've never heard that.

Brad Kearns: 00:44:17

I love that we're going to borrow that orange and oil gets.

Brad Kearns: 00:44:21

And that's kind of what happens with overly stressful lifestyle overproduction of stress hormones.

Brad Kearns: 00:44:26

People are familiar with calcification of the arteries.

Brad Kearns: 00:44:29

You've talked about that for about 30 years.

Brad Kearns: 00:44:31

And that comes from a lot of things, including too much stress from the exercise realm, as well as the smoking and the crappy diet.

Brad Kearns: 00:44:40

And so the catabolic effects of running are when it's so stressful that your body becomes chronically inflamed, broken down, doesn't recover well.

Brad Kearns: 00:44:52

And so there's some nitty gritty about these terms.

Brad Kearns: 00:44:56

When you say anabolic and catabolic, most people know what you're talking about, but it's about the genetic signaling for the activity.

Brad Kearns: 00:45:04

So walking is not literally anabolic, but what happens when you walk a lot is you have the proper signaling for muscular repair and restoration in the body.

Brad Kearns: 00:45:16

It's sending the signal to be healthy.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:45:18

I think of anabolic steroids.

Brad Kearns: 00:45:20

Right, Right.

Brad Kearns: 00:45:21

Anabolic is building and catabolic is breaking down.

Brad Kearns: 00:45:24

And then the third one is metabolic, where you're just existing.

Brad Kearns: 00:45:27

You're not catabolic or anabolic.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:45:28

I think that's the great way.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:45:29

One's building and one is breaking it down.

Brad Kearns: 00:45:32

Right.

Brad Kearns: 00:45:33

So, you know, the impact trauma of running is another reason why you would call it catabolic, because you're running at three to four to five times impact body weight every stride.

Brad Kearns: 00:45:45

So a jogger doing an easy five miler that weighs 150 pounds at a slow pace is imparting like 2.3 million pounds of impact trauma on a five mile jog.

Brad Kearns: 00:45:56

Walking, what's the impact trauma?

Brad Kearns: 00:45:58

Any of you physics majors out there?

Brad Kearns: 00:46:00

It's never more than 1x body weight because the definition of walking is that one foot is always on the ground.

Brad Kearns: 00:46:07

You know, in the Olympics they're going to get disqualified from race walking.

Brad Kearns: 00:46:10

Hey, I see two feet in the air.

Brad Kearns: 00:46:11

So because one foot is always on the ground, your body weight is always supported by at least one foot.

Brad Kearns: 00:46:18

So there's no impact trauma beyond the one time body weight.

Brad Kearns: 00:46:21

But when you land, running has what's called a flight phase.

Brad Kearns: 00:46:24

That's the difference between walking and running is in running, there's two feet off the ground at a time, and then you land and then there's two feet off the ground, then you land, and that's where you get the two to three.

Brad Kearns: 00:46:34

Usain Bolt has five times impact trauma and 100 meters when he's running 27 miles an hour.

Brad Kearns: 00:46:39

So he weighs 200 pounds.

Brad Kearns: 00:46:41

He's imparting 1,000 pounds of vertical force into the ground on every stride.

Brad Kearns: 00:46:46

That's why his strides are eight feet long, but a jogger is still going two to three times body weight impact trauma.

Brad Kearns: 00:46:52

Now, if you're not super fit and perhaps super lean like Frank Shorter and Thugwane and Sifan Hassan, that's going to be a tremendous load to absorb.

Brad Kearns: 00:47:04

If you've been sitting on your butt for the last 5, 10, or 20 years and haven't really built tremendously strong bone density and been in the gym doing resistance exercise and things that help you absorb impact training.

Brad Kearns: 00:47:16

Oh, and the shoes, by the way.

Brad Kearns: 00:47:19

We'll get into that, but they cause a big problem here with impact trauma.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:47:23

Well, yeah.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:47:24

And so you have a whole chapter on the broken promise of cushioned shoes.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:47:27

And in the book, you have a stat that I think says that over 50% of runners get injured every year, which is more than an NFL football player, which is 33 years old.

Brad Kearns: 00:47:39

From the Cael University School of Medicine.

Brad Kearns: 00:47:41

Excuse me, excuse me, Yale University.

Brad Kearns: 00:47:44

There's tons of research about this.

Brad Kearns: 00:47:46

25% of regular runners are injured at any given time.

Brad Kearns: 00:47:52

One out of four is sidelined by shin splints or Achilles tendonitis or plantar fasciitis.

Brad Kearns: 00:47:58

And then stressing about it because we learned about the obligate runner feeling like they're missing their workouts.

Brad Kearns: 00:48:02

Forget about a weekend rain in North Carolina, now you're out for six weeks.

Brad Kearns: 00:48:06

I had a stress fracture in college.

Brad Kearns: 00:48:07

I can share my vulnerable sob story, but, like, running on the team was everything to me in high school and college.

Brad Kearns: 00:48:13

I was going to be a D1 athlete, and this was my identity and my way to fit in with my peers and distinguish myself.

Brad Kearns: 00:48:20

And I went off to ucsb and I was sick or injured five seasons in a row until I finally said, f this, I'm going to become a triathlete.

Brad Kearns: 00:48:27

But when I got that last, you know, diagnosis of the stress fracture, I was devastated.

Brad Kearns: 00:48:32

You know, I just like, what am I going to do now?

Brad Kearns: 00:48:35

I'm, you know, it's not working out, and it's everything to me.

Brad Kearns: 00:48:38

So.

Brad Kearns: 00:48:39

Injuries are no joke.

Brad Kearns: 00:48:41

Now, why is everyone getting injured at such a ridiculous rate?

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:48:45

But if we're wearing these cushioned shoes, should.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:48:47

Shouldn't that be protecting us somewhere?

Carrie Barrett: 00:48:49

Right?

Brad Kearns: 00:48:49

Exactly.

Brad Kearns: 00:48:49

Yeah.

Brad Kearns: 00:48:50

So here's the thing about cushioned shoes.

Brad Kearns: 00:48:53

There has never been a single shred of evidence showing that they prevent injuries.

Brad Kearns: 00:49:01

They do not, not lessen impact trauma.

Brad Kearns: 00:49:03

They actually increase impact trauma up to seven times.

Brad Kearns: 00:49:06

That's Daniel Lieberman, Harvard University research, very highly respected lab where there, he's a barefoot running expert.

Brad Kearns: 00:49:12

He wrote the book Exercise and some other books.

Brad Kearns: 00:49:15

And they also amazingly, don't even control pronation.

Brad Kearns: 00:49:21

So, you know, runners are familiar with the term pronation, where your foot caves inward when you land and then pushes off the ground.

Brad Kearns: 00:49:28

And when you, when you over pronate, it's believed to be driving injury because your, your foot works at a, at a weird angle and could overstress the foot.

Brad Kearns: 00:49:37

It's actually a normal part of the running stride.

Brad Kearns: 00:49:39

And you can see like the greatest runners in the world have extreme overpronation when they're landing close up when you're watching them run around the track in the Olympics.

Brad Kearns: 00:49:46

So running shoes don't even do what has been advertised for the last 50 years in the, in the, in the magazines and the print ads.

Brad Kearns: 00:49:54

The British Journal of Sports Medicine says this is an extreme same public health hazard, the false advertising about running shoes.

Brad Kearns: 00:50:03

So what running shoes do is they enable poorly adapted people to run who wouldn't otherwise be able to run because they mask the tremendous impact trauma of two to three times body weight on every stride for someone who's not adapted because of that nice soft cushioned shoe.

Brad Kearns: 00:50:23

So when you're running down the road in pavement in these elevated cushioned shoes and you're not really strong or adapted enough to run with correct form to minimize the impact trauma with a beautiful midfoot landing and a correct pronation and a balanced body weight, balance pelvis, that's when you did finish your 10 mile jog around the lake.

Brad Kearns: 00:50:44

But you did it with horribly poor form that exacerbated the impact trauma that might be minimized from, from someone like the Tarahumara who run 50 miles in a piece of sand tied around their foot.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:50:56

So for every listener right now that is wearing their hokas, have they been hoodwinked?

Brad Kearns: 00:51:05

Well, this is where I want to be kinder and gentler because we've had some, we've had some tough, tough talk so far.

Brad Kearns: 00:51:12

Yeah, the whole movement towards endurance running is way better than sitting on the couch and smoking, which was the pastime in the 50s and 60s and whatever.

Brad Kearns: 00:51:23

So anything that's getting people out of the house and onto the road has got to be considered a good thing, a great thing.

Brad Kearns: 00:51:29

And these elevated cushion shoes, and now the super cushion shoes that you mentioned enable poorly adapted people to do something that they would not otherwise try.

Brad Kearns: 00:51:38

The argument here is like, let's think about running with proper form, which is a midfoot landing over a balanced center of gravity rather than the most common.

Brad Kearns: 00:51:48

Lieberman says 80 to 95% of recreational runners exhibit what's called a heel striking, braking over striding pattern.

Brad Kearns: 00:51:57

And there are many reasons for this.

Brad Kearns: 00:51:59

The running shoe allows you to heel strike and over stride and give a breaking effect on each stride.

Brad Kearns: 00:52:04

But the reasons for it are, and there's a list in the book, like weak hamstrings, tight hip flexors, dysfunctional glutes and all these things that come from sitting in a chair honestly and not doing the proper mobility work.

Brad Kearns: 00:52:17

Like when the old days humans worked on the farm and in the factory and they put big boxes up on the top shelf.

Brad Kearns: 00:52:24

Now we're pretty much, you know, door dash and computer.

Brad Kearns: 00:52:27

And so running again, very, very difficult activity to do correctly with the proper technique.

Brad Kearns: 00:52:36

And that's where you can envision this gateway to a better future where you learn how to run correctly.

Brad Kearns: 00:52:42

And guess what?

Brad Kearns: 00:52:42

Maybe you're only going to make it three minutes before you need to stop and walk and kind of change your workout pattern from shuffling along for a four and a half hour marathon or a five and a half hour marathon with bad form and a lot of impact trauma to being an actual runner that's doing it correctly.

Carrie Barrett: 00:53:02

I like what you said in the book too when you were talking about how the advent of the super shoe and these super max cushion shoes still allow us to go out and run because it's absorbing a lot of, it's compensating for us on a lot of this poor form that we might exhibit otherwise.

Carrie Barrett: 00:53:23

You compare that in the book, which really hit home to me as getting novocaine for having a tooth yanked out feels fine.

Carrie Barrett: 00:53:33

Yeah.

Carrie Barrett: 00:53:33

So they'll numb you up and, and they'll go in and they'll rip that tooth out and you won't feel anything until later until it wears off.

Brad Kearns: 00:53:43

Until that's what your overuse injury is.

Carrie Barrett: 00:53:46

And that's, you know, there.

Carrie Barrett: 00:53:48

And again is what we're talking about here of like learning proper form, which I would love to get into the how too of, you know, how do we learn proper form of walking or running?

Brad Kearns: 00:54:01

Right now we could take a five minute break and I will show you how to exhibit perfect form.

Brad Kearns: 00:54:07

Here it is.

Brad Kearns: 00:54:07

People go outside or inside, find a nice stretch of hard surface.

Brad Kearns: 00:54:15

So it could be a gym or it could be a paved road that's smooth and without the debris, take off your shoes and start running.

Brad Kearns: 00:54:25

And immediately, no matter who you are and how crappy your form is now, you will immediately exhibit perfect, beautiful running form like a deer gracefully running through the forest.

Brad Kearns: 00:54:37

Because the penalty for even the Slightest imperfection in form.

Brad Kearns: 00:54:42

When you're running down, let's say a gym.

Brad Kearns: 00:54:43

Go, go to the gym or the fitness center where there's a nice stretch, or, you know, down a clean sidewalk.

Brad Kearns: 00:54:49

The penalty for bad form is immediately tremendously noticeable.

Brad Kearns: 00:54:53

I talked about heel striking and the shoes enabling heel striking.

Brad Kearns: 00:54:57

You can jump off a 2 inch platform somewhere in your house, like take a book, stand on the book and try to jump on the ground and land on your heels.

Brad Kearns: 00:55:06

Your brain won't even let you do it.

Brad Kearns: 00:55:07

And if you even do it for a demo, like jump up in the air and land one inch on your heels.

Brad Kearns: 00:55:12

Ow.

Brad Kearns: 00:55:12

That hurts like heck.

Brad Kearns: 00:55:14

But you're doing that every stride on the run because the cushion shoe is only absorbing 10% of the impact, by the way.

Brad Kearns: 00:55:23

So the beautiful Hoka with the giant cushion, 10% being absorbed into the foam, which is, you know, an attribute.

Brad Kearns: 00:55:29

Right.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:55:30

Where's the other 90%?

Brad Kearns: 00:55:31

The other 90% is inappropriately dispersed throughout your lower extremities without you noticing because the cushioning of the shoe destroys your proprioception.

Brad Kearns: 00:55:43

That's your awareness of your body moving through space.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:55:46

Isn't that remarkable?

Brad Kearns: 00:55:47

So they feel great.

Brad Kearns: 00:55:48

Especially when you try on the shoe in the store and you run down the sidewalk for two minutes and two minutes back.

Brad Kearns: 00:55:53

These are awesome.

Brad Kearns: 00:55:53

I feel like, like I'm, you know, on springs.

Brad Kearns: 00:55:56

It's because your brain has been disconnected from what's actually happening to your foot when it hits the ground.

Brad Kearns: 00:56:02

But when I say take your shoes off and run down the gym or down the sidewalk, you can feel right away what it feels like to land on the ground.

Brad Kearns: 00:56:10

And guess what?

Brad Kearns: 00:56:11

When, when you, when you take off your shoes, you will land on the midfoot.

Brad Kearns: 00:56:17

Your toes will what they call toe splay.

Brad Kearns: 00:56:19

They splay sideways, so the entire foot flattens, goes sideways, then it pronates, which is all the way to not only absorb impact, but also, also now harness kinetic energy for a beautiful propulsive takeoff.

Brad Kearns: 00:56:32

And all this is the magnificent human foot doing what it's designed to do.

Brad Kearns: 00:56:37

And we can see what's possible when we see the.

Brad Kearns: 00:56:39

The great barefoot runners.

Brad Kearns: 00:56:40

Mary Decker, I mean, Zola Bud was barefoot.

Brad Kearns: 00:56:44

Right.

Brad Kearns: 00:56:45

And the Tarahumara and whoever you want to pick, like humans can run a hundred miles barefoot, basically with no pain or overuse injury because they're extremely well adapted.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:56:56

Yeah.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:56:57

So if Carrie and I, who have been running with normal shoes, want to get started with something that's a little bit smarter, where do we, like, how do we begin?

Brad Kearns: 00:57:09

I wouldn't do it, man, just keep doing what you're doing.

Brad Kearns: 00:57:11

It's too much of a challenge.

Brad Kearns: 00:57:13

It's too hard.

Brad Kearns: 00:57:14

You're too old now.

Brad Kearns: 00:57:15

Well, no, what you want to do is start walking and living a barefoot inspired lifestyle as much as possible.

Brad Kearns: 00:57:24

So again, walking with 1x impact, you can immediately with any shoe, comfortably with any shoe.

Brad Kearns: 00:57:30

Well, a barefoot or a barefoot inspired shoe would be the best.

Rheb Esselstyn: 00:57:33

Okay, got it, got it, got it.

Brad Kearns: 00:57:35

Especially getting rid of that heel because the elevated heel is the single worst attribute according to Katie Bowman, barefoot expert.

Brad Kearns: 00:57:41

It's the single worst attribute of modern shoes.

Brad Kearns: 00:57:43

It throws off, everyone can realize it throws off, off your freaking posture.

Brad Kearns: 00:57:47

You're supposed to stand on your heels as a human.

Brad Kearns: 00:57:50

The calcaneus bone is so dense and rigid because it's supposed to support body weight.

Brad Kearns: 00:57:54

And the body weight stacks over the spine, stacks over the pelvis and the neck and everything and the shoulders are in line with the spine and everything's loaded over the heels.

Brad Kearns: 00:58:04

But as soon as you put on a shoe, especially a big puffy cushion running shoe, you are now onto your midfoot with your loaded weight weight.

Brad Kearns: 00:58:11

Therefore, what's going to happen to your shoulders and your neck?

Brad Kearns: 00:58:15

Everything's going to hunch over, driven by and blaming the shoes partly otherwise.

Brad Kearns: 00:58:20

It's also habits of texting, typing, driving, swimming, everything's hunched over.

Brad Kearns: 00:58:24

But it would be really helpful to get what's called a zero drop shoe.

Brad Kearns: 00:58:29

And then as you know, we're involved Mark Sisson and I with his new company Paluva, which is a five toe shoe.

Brad Kearns: 00:58:36

And we use that attribute as the distinguishing feature of the best barefoot style experience is the shows.

Brad Kearns: 00:58:43

The toes need to be independent of each other to truly work properly and articulate and splay and do all those things that I described through the running stride and the walking stride.

Brad Kearns: 00:58:52

But you asked the question like, oh, we run in regular shoes.

Brad Kearns: 00:58:55

What should we do now?

Brad Kearns: 00:58:56

Please don't run in a barefoot shoe that you order up and get, you know, next day in the mail.

Brad Kearns: 00:59:04

Because your body's poorly adapted from wearing elevated cushioned shoes your whole life.

Brad Kearns: 00:59:08

Life.

Brad Kearns: 00:59:09

And so the transition to improved foot health, just putting running aside for a moment, is to try to get trend toward a more barefoot inspired lifestyle.

Brad Kearns: 00:59:19

So you walk around barefoot as much as you can in the house and in safe areas, on the beach, wherever you can.

Brad Kearns: 00:59:24

And then you wear a shoe for the necessary protection.

Brad Kearns: 00:59:27

But it has those minimal features which are so popular now.

Brad Kearns: 00:59:30

It's a whole, it's a whole footwear category that didn't exist A long time ago.

Carrie Barrett: 00:59:34

Yeah.

Carrie Barrett: 00:59:34

Well, and what, what about though, for people that have all of our feet, structures are different.

Carrie Barrett: 00:59:40

So some people have super high arches, some people have no arches.

Carrie Barrett: 00:59:44

My husband contends that he cannot walk around barefoot because it hurts his feet.

Carrie Barrett: 00:59:49

He gets plantar.

Carrie Barrett: 00:59:51

I don't know, maybe he's just trained his brain to believe that after all these years.

Carrie Barrett: 00:59:55

So are there considerations to be made for people that have vastly different structures?

Brad Kearns: 01:00:00

For sure, sure.

Brad Kearns: 01:00:01

Yeah.

Brad Kearns: 01:00:01

You don't want to push it or overdo it.

Brad Kearns: 01:00:03

It's just like saying, hey, you're out of shape and you don't have as much muscle mass.

Brad Kearns: 01:00:08

Go to the gym and work out.

Brad Kearns: 01:00:09

We're not telling you to go and get sore every day and rip your muscles apart.

Brad Kearns: 01:00:13

And so if you have foot issues.

Brad Kearns: 01:00:16

Oh, which is 78% of modern citizens do complain of chronic foot pain, which is, you know, another, another stat up there with like the running injuries.

Brad Kearns: 01:00:27

This, this requires a graceful transition and a lifelong commitment, really.

Brad Kearns: 01:00:31

But most people can walk around barefoot in the house without too much trouble.

Brad Kearns: 01:00:35

But if you put on some minimalist shoes and go for a two mile walk and then your arches are sore the next day, that's a sign of, you know, inflammation and trying to adapt to a new protocol.

Brad Kearns: 01:00:47

So you just gotta back it off and tweak it a little bit.

Brad Kearns: 01:00:50

And the different high arches, flat feet, this foot, that foot, all feet are going to work pretty well through the gait pattern.

Brad Kearns: 01:01:00

So it's not this huge deal where you're in this corner and you can't do much because you have really flat feet.

Brad Kearns: 01:01:05

It's not the biggest deal that people think it is.

Brad Kearns: 01:01:08

You just got to train that foot to strengthen things that have been extremely atrophied, like the Achilles tendon and the, the longitudinal arch and the calf muscles and everything that goes with it.

Brad Kearns: 01:01:19

So even someone who's interested in a more minimalist, minimalist approach, you can do sets of 12 calf raises while you're in your working cubicle all day.

Brad Kearns: 01:01:29

That's a little break as counts as movement.

Brad Kearns: 01:01:32

But we got, we got some issues here if you don't want to end up on that predictive road where you know that Medicare gives.

Brad Kearns: 01:01:39

Medicare covers two pairs of orthopedic shoes a year.

Brad Kearns: 01:01:43

It's built into the system that our feet are going to fall apart so bad that we need special shoes and special orthotics are also covered as part of like routine.

Brad Kearns: 01:01:54

You know, it's crazy to think that that many people have destroyed their feet from, you know, Basically you're putting me in a cast your whole life.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:02:02

Yeah, I can look at, I'm sure that you can look at somebody's foot and tell immediately how if it's a healthy foot or not.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:02:11

Right.

Brad Kearns: 01:02:11

Well, you can Google like ancestral, you know, what's his name?

Brad Kearns: 01:02:15

Weston A.

Brad Kearns: 01:02:15

Price.

Brad Kearns: 01:02:16

Going and taking pictures around the world of native living people.

Brad Kearns: 01:02:19

And their toes are like, it looks like a open hand.

Brad Kearns: 01:02:22

Right.

Brad Kearns: 01:02:22

You know.

Brad Kearns: 01:02:23

Right.

Brad Kearns: 01:02:23

And then most people's feet are just munched together because they've been inside a shoe.

Brad Kearns: 01:02:29

And my mom's a good example.

Brad Kearns: 01:02:30

She has hammer toe.

Brad Kearns: 01:02:31

So one of the toes is like pushed up and out of line with the other toes because there's no room for it.

Brad Kearns: 01:02:38

And so she's trying these five toe shoes and the toe will have to be forced into its individual pockets pocket.

Brad Kearns: 01:02:45

But then it sits there and it's, it's realigned and re educated all day long.

Brad Kearns: 01:02:49

So it's really cool to have a path toward, you know, adaptation and improvement because the body is very resilient.

Brad Kearns: 01:02:57

If you take your shoes off and start going around barefoot, your husband's archers are going to get stronger and stronger and stronger and stronger.

Brad Kearns: 01:03:04

Just, you know, let's make sure we don't introduce new pain and have setbacks accordingly.

Brad Kearns: 01:03:09

five finger shoe, came out in: 2005

Brad Kearns: 01:03:35

And then there was a class action lawsuit filed and it kind of tanked the company for a while.

Brad Kearns: 01:03:39

It was a ridiculous lawsuit where someone sued him because they got injured.

Brad Kearns: 01:03:44

When it said these shoes were good for your feet, like really, you're holding up it, it's basically a rubber sock.

Brad Kearns: 01:03:49

And they, they got injured blaming the shoe and they, they settled the lawsuit and that really took a PR hit for them.

Brad Kearns: 01:03:57

And so what we're saying with this new movement toward barefoot minimalist shoes is walk around in these and get stronger.

Brad Kearns: 01:04:05

And then if you like specialized activity like running, use your running shoe.

Brad Kearns: 01:04:10

If you like to play basketball, here's a tip.

Brad Kearns: 01:04:12

Use a basketball shoe rather than a barefoot five toe shoe.

Brad Kearns: 01:04:15

I like to high jump, so I have shoes with heel spikes in them and those are the best shoes for high jumping because I ain't high jumping barefoot or I'll tweak my feet.

Brad Kearns: 01:04:24

Right.

Carrie Barrett: 01:04:24

That's the most common sense thing I've heard too.

Carrie Barrett: 01:04:27

Which, and I think that that's a huge takeaway for people is like, yes, just use a sports specific shoe for those particular activities and use this barefoot shoe or go barefoot as you said.

Carrie Barrett: 01:04:42

Create like a barefoot lifestyle and other facets of your life when you can.

Carrie Barrett: 01:04:48

Because I love a minimal shoe, but I can't run in them.

Brad Kearns: 01:04:53

Oh, same with your romantic weekend.

Brad Kearns: 01:04:55

You want to pack your high heels and get all decked out and then the rest of your life, when you come out of those high heels, you want to give your feet a break and strengthen and relax, realign.

Carrie Barrett: 01:05:05

I didn't want to bring my heels.

Carrie Barrett: 01:05:06

I wanted to use my bike shoes that weekend.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:05:08

That's.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:05:09

Now what are you gonna do?

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:05:10

Like, I've really gotten into pickleball.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:05:12

I think it's the fastest growing sport in North America.

Brad Kearns: 01:05:14

Oh yeah.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:05:15

Everybody I know is, is, is either addicted or they're getting into it.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:05:20

Is there a pickleball like minimalist shoe?

Brad Kearns: 01:05:24

I mean, Paluva is actually making a pickleball shoe.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:05:27

And how long do I have to way?

Brad Kearns: 01:05:29

I'm going to send you a prototype just because you express interest, but that's a side to side activity.

Brad Kearns: 01:05:36

So you require some adaptation and some compromise between the ultimate minimalist shoe and one that gives you protection, especially lateral stability.

Brad Kearns: 01:05:48

But there's definitely an advantage to be had when you're on the ground and trying to move around.

Brad Kearns: 01:05:54

If you can, can, you know, get, get comfortable in a shoe that has less height and less padding.

Brad Kearns: 01:06:01

You're going to move better on the pickleball court for sure.

Brad Kearns: 01:06:04

I don't want to get more injuries because the pickleball's the number one most popular sport.

Brad Kearns: 01:06:07

And it's also like the orthopedics.

Brad Kearns: 01:06:10

I know, I love that.

Brad Kearns: 01:06:11

Yeah.

Brad Kearns: 01:06:12

Pickle balls like the huge injury rate because it's, you know, unfit people are going out and trying to have fun and reach for a shot which they've, they haven't done.

Brad Kearns: 01:06:21

The property proper mobility, flexibility, daily drilling and things that allow you to have a more playful, active, energetic life.

Brad Kearns: 01:06:29

And I'm going to say the same about runners where when you get into that obligate runner mode and you're just focused on your mileage, you potentially sacrifice the time and energy and discipline to do those 12 minutes of exercise bands at home to get those hip flexors engaged and going before you head out, out onto the road.

Brad Kearns: 01:06:48

Kelly Starrett you know, the great movement expert, author of Becoming a Supple Leopard.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:06:52

We had him on the, on the podcast.

Brad Kearns: 01:06:54

He says you should.

Brad Kearns: 01:06:55

Runners should spend 25% of training time on mobility, flexibility, preparatory, strengthening drills.

Brad Kearns: 01:07:01

So if you're out there running for an hour, the 15 minutes should be dedicated to this and so on down the line for, you know, your entire weekly mileage dedication.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:07:11

I saw he wrote a really nice review for, for Born to Walk for you guys.

Brad Kearns: 01:07:16

Yep, it's right along.

Brad Kearns: 01:07:17

You know, we've been a big fan of his.

Brad Kearns: 01:07:20

He presented our retreats for many years.

Brad Kearns: 01:07:22

One of the best presenters I've ever seen.

Brad Kearns: 01:07:23

Hilarious.

Brad Kearns: 01:07:24

Just getting people cracking up all the way and then learning all these new, you know, pillars of wisdom in order to live your life.

Brad Kearns: 01:07:31

And speaking of that, and I mentioned Katie Bowman, too, like, experts like them are contending strongly that just moving more in daily life is more important for disease risk, prevention and longevity than adhering to a devoted fitness regimen.

Brad Kearns: 01:07:49

So, of course, fitness has all these benefits, and getting in the gym and getting your cardio and your endurance and all that is super important.

Brad Kearns: 01:07:56

It's going to help you.

Brad Kearns: 01:07:57

But number one objective is just to move more, and that's within reach of everybody.

Brad Kearns: 01:08:02

And when I say move more, I talk about calf raises and whatever, but, you know, walking is kind of the foundational human movement and the quintessential human gait pattern.

Brad Kearns: 01:08:12

And so everyone can think of walking as a centerpiece.

Brad Kearns: 01:08:15

But yoga class counts for moving more, and so does Pilates and so does helping out at the preschool playground and so forth.

Carrie Barrett: 01:08:23

Yeah, I think with the advent of work from home, and I know a lot of the audience here for Plantstrong, many of them are retired now, and so they're maybe not building in that passive movement into their day.

Carrie Barrett: 01:08:39

And so you do have to make a concerted effort to set your watch, you know, at the top of every hour to give you a buzz and say, get up and do five squats or get up and walk around your house.

Carrie Barrett: 01:08:52

I remember when I used to work at a traditional office, I would probably spend 45 minutes a day just walking around, chatting with people, going to lunch, getting, you know, just all the things that made you move.

Carrie Barrett: 01:09:05

And now that I work from home, generally, I will do my morning workout.

Carrie Barrett: 01:09:09

And that's it.

Carrie Barrett: 01:09:09

I.

Carrie Barrett: 01:09:10

I sit all day.

Carrie Barrett: 01:09:11

And so I am.

Carrie Barrett: 01:09:14

I'm guilty as charged.

Carrie Barrett: 01:09:15

And so I think that building in these little micro, what do you call, like, micro sessions, micro workouts, micro movement patterns into your day is, Is wildly important.

Carrie Barrett: 01:09:25

A question that I wanted to ask because I am very stuck in my running ways.

Carrie Barrett: 01:09:29

I love to run, as we mentioned before.

Carrie Barrett: 01:09:31

It's very social for me now.

Carrie Barrett: 01:09:33

It's, I love to set a goal and try to go for it.

Carrie Barrett: 01:09:37

There's a lot of pride that comes with that.

Carrie Barrett: 01:09:39

Call it ego, I don't care.

Carrie Barrett: 01:09:40

I mean, it's like, it's fun to work hard for a goal.

Carrie Barrett: 01:09:44

So when you're advocating walking, you're not saying stop running altogether to the general audience.

Carrie Barrett: 01:09:54

I mean, you're not saying.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:09:55

Or are you?

Brad Kearns: 01:09:57

Well, here it is.

Brad Kearns: 01:09:58

It's up to you, listener, and here's how we're going to address this issue.

Brad Kearns: 01:10:03

There's something called fat max heart rate or math heart rate or aerobic max.

Brad Kearns: 01:10:09

And this can be identified in a laboratory or using the simple Dr.

Brad Kearns: 01:10:13

Phil Maffetone's formula of 180 minus your age in beats per minute.

Brad Kearns: 01:10:16

But fat max heart rate is where you are burning the most fat calories per minute.

Brad Kearns: 01:10:23

And if you were to go faster than that, you would burn fewer fat calories per minute.

Brad Kearns: 01:10:29

You'd burn fat at a lower rate in favor of a distinct spike in glucose burning in order to fuel you going faster and faster.

Brad Kearns: 01:10:37

People probably know basic physiology where fat burning is comfortable pace, and then glucose burning is you get faster and faster and work all the way up to a sprint.

Brad Kearns: 01:10:47

So fat max is a really important number to identify and respect when you're doing endurance aerobic activity.

Brad Kearns: 01:10:55

So when you train at or below fat max, you are training your fat burning systems and you're getting an energizing, rejuvenating, refreshing exercise session.

Brad Kearns: 01:11:06

In contrast, if you exceed fat max and do what might be termed tempo or threshold or whatever term you want to use for a more strenuous workout, it has a desired fitness adaptation.

Brad Kearns: 01:11:20

Right?

Brad Kearns: 01:11:21

You're trying to train for your pace, to run 10k or whatever, but it's a much more stressful workout and you're actually stimulating different energy systems, namely the glucose burning system, which as I said before, before, when we deplete those energy stores, the glycogen stores in the body to fuel these type of workouts, the brain will want to replenish with one extra Ben and Jerry's than you might ordinarily consume.

Brad Kearns: 01:11:46

So training in the fat burning zones and emphasizing that for the vast majority of your exercise time, especially the more and more devoted and perhaps competitive you are, where you're putting in a lot of time out there, running or whatever, whatever you're doing could be a cyclist or anybody.

Brad Kearns: 01:12:04

That's super important because that's going to keep you in a area where the workout is not too stressful.

Brad Kearns: 01:12:12

It's promoting of longevity and cognitive function and a active, energetic, happy day rather than getting you into that exhaustion mode.

Brad Kearns: 01:12:21

So if we were to take like hey, let's take next summer, the three of us and walk the Appalachian Trail, it's 2,200 miles.

Brad Kearns: 01:12:28

Scott Jurek did it in 40 something days.

Brad Kearns: 01:12:31

Let's do it in 127, seven days.

Brad Kearns: 01:12:33

So if we spent all day walking at a comfortable pace, that would be a super, super, super healthy summer.

Brad Kearns: 01:12:39

You can't get better than being outdoors.

Brad Kearns: 01:12:41

And then it's going to be catered by plants strong.

Brad Kearns: 01:12:44

We're going to meet at the trailhead and they're going to have a full meal for us every day.

Brad Kearns: 01:12:48

You can't beat that for health and all that.

Brad Kearns: 01:12:51

Now if you're a runner and you're going to spend the summer running 35 to 52 miles a week at a pace that exceeds fat max, you are just piling on more strength, stress and chronic overproduction of cortisol into you already.

Carrie Barrett: 01:13:03

Stressful life if you're not trained for that or if you haven't adapted to that.

Brad Kearns: 01:13:08

Right.

Brad Kearns: 01:13:08

So how, how do we know we're overdoing it?

Brad Kearns: 01:13:11

What pace should we go at?

Brad Kearns: 01:13:12

Right, Take your fat max, which is 180 minus your age.

Carrie Barrett: 01:13:16

Okay.

Carrie Barrett: 01:13:16

That's the big.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:13:17

So let's just right there like what was.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:13:19

So what would yours be?

Carrie Barrett: 01:13:20

So I did it actually when I was reading the book, I did it and I want to say it's 128 right now.

Carrie Barrett: 01:13:25

So 180 minus my 80 age is.

Carrie Barrett: 01:13:27

It's 128.

Carrie Barrett: 01:13:29

So that is my heart rate right now I use a.

Carrie Barrett: 01:13:33

So for people that aren't familiar with a heart rate monitor.

Carrie Barrett: 01:13:36

The most common heart rate monitors are chest straps that you, that you wear around your, your chest.

Carrie Barrett: 01:13:43

I find them wildly uncomfortable.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:13:45

Don't these watches now they do.

Carrie Barrett: 01:13:46

They're not great, but they are a baseline.

Carrie Barrett: 01:13:49

They are a baseline, yeah.

Carrie Barrett: 01:13:51

So a lot of smart watches, Apple watches, et cetera, do have wrist optics.

Carrie Barrett: 01:13:56

But if, if it's the all you have and it's the only metric you have, at least it's consistent.

Carrie Barrett: 01:14:01

You know, you're not changing out technological devices.

Carrie Barrett: 01:14:05

They also have arm armband ones that go around your, your sort of upper bicep, like a blood pressure cuff that I'm more intrigued to learn more about.

Carrie Barrett: 01:14:15

Yeah.

Carrie Barrett: 01:14:15

So you like so 128 for me is my, based on this formula, my fat max number.

Carrie Barrett: 01:14:23

So if I go over that number now, I'm dipping into glucose storage at this point and I'll need to replenish that glucose because it's in short supply.

Carrie Barrett: 01:14:36

So if I have, let's say a two hour run, I cannot get through a two hour run above that fat max number without, without taking in gels.

Brad Kearns: 01:14:48

Or carbohydrates and suffering.

Brad Kearns: 01:14:51

Basically, yeah.

Brad Kearns: 01:14:52

To hold your pace.

Carrie Barrett: 01:14:53

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Carrie Barrett: 01:14:54

It takes, it requires work.

Carrie Barrett: 01:14:55

But below that, 128.

Carrie Barrett: 01:14:58

I mean, that's.

Carrie Barrett: 01:15:00

If I look, I look at that and I'm like, well, that feels pretty slow, Brad.

Brad Kearns: 01:15:05

That feels frustrating.

Carrie Barrett: 01:15:06

That feels pretty frustrating to me now, Rip.

Brad Kearns: 01:15:09

And I learned this as triathletes when the training load is so high that you really have to protect your energy and your stress rest cycles.

Brad Kearns: 01:15:17

And if you go too hard in training, trying to be Mr.

Brad Kearns: 01:15:20

Strong Guy in Austin, or I want to be the baddest guy in California, you get stressed out, you get broken down, you get injured, you get burnt out.

Brad Kearns: 01:15:30

And it was all because you pushed yourself too hard instead of respecting the importance of building that aerobic base.

Brad Kearns: 01:15:36

The aerobic conditioning base is the foundation for all performance in all sports.

Brad Kearns: 01:15:40

Even explosive high performance, you know, power lifting and all the basketball players, all the soccer players, baseball players, everyone needs an aerobic base in order to, you know, excel in whatever workouts they're doing in whatever team sports.

Brad Kearns: 01:15:56

And we destroy this objective when we push ourselves too hard and we teach ourselves to be oversimplified, of course, we teach ourselves to be sugar burn burners rather than fat burners.

Brad Kearns: 01:16:07

So the frustrating part is when you get your watch on and you start honoring this, the correct way to train, which has been proven by the performances of all endurance athletes in every sport, all the elite athletes in every sport for the past 60 years, dating back to Arthur Lydiard, New Zealand.

Brad Kearns: 01:16:23

Training the runners.

Brad Kearns: 01:16:24

This is the way to train.

Brad Kearns: 01:16:26

But the average recreational enthusiast pushes themselves too hard repeatedly to the extent that their aerobic base is compromised.

Brad Kearns: 01:16:34

And they're a sugar burning, high stress athlete with extra belly fat and bad eating habits and laziness habits throughout the day.

Brad Kearns: 01:16:46

So the takeaway message of slowing down, to get fitter, to get faster, to get more energetic in general, and to promote longevity rather than compromise.

Brad Kearns: 01:16:57

Longevity is one that hopefully will be improved, embraced, but it is a little frustrating.

Brad Kearns: 01:17:02

That's why I remember the triathlon days of like, wait, Mark Allen told me to slow down in training so I could get closer to him because he's kicking my ass over and over.

Brad Kearns: 01:17:09

And it was a great gift that he gave me to say that.

Brad Kearns: 01:17:12

And you know, it works.

Brad Kearns: 01:17:14

But it takes a lot of trust and patience and letting go of if those ego influences are there where you need to meet your certain time on the Ladybird Trail.

Brad Kearns: 01:17:23

Otherwise you're not going to feel fulfilled that day.

Brad Kearns: 01:17:25

That's going to be stuff that we, we have to shatter through with a sledgehammer because this is the way to train.

Brad Kearns: 01:17:31

And in the book, we spent a lot of time talking about Eluud Kipchoge, the greatest marathon runner of all time, one of the greatest endurance athletes of all time.

Brad Kearns: 01:17:39

Maybe he and Lance Armstrong are the two greatest endurance machines ever on the planet, in my opinion.

Brad Kearns: 01:17:44

But this is the guy that ran the 159 Marathon.

Brad Kearns: 01:17:47

He published his training log on the Internet years ago, five years ago for all the exercise physiologists and coaches to dig into to.

Brad Kearns: 01:17:55

And guys have flown over to Kenya and watched him train and recorded everything.

Brad Kearns: 01:18:00

And he performs 82 to 84% of his weekly mileage at what he calls easy or 50% capacity.

Brad Kearns: 01:18:11

So he's in zone one, if you've heard about the zones.

Brad Kearns: 01:18:14

And zone two is great.

Brad Kearns: 01:18:15

Zone two this and zone two that.

Brad Kearns: 01:18:17

That's good that they're promoting zone two because that's also a comfortable zone and that the top of zone 22 is represents fat max heart rate.

Brad Kearns: 01:18:24

But He's a zone one guy for something like 80 something percent of his.

Brad Kearns: 01:18:29

His total weekly mileage, he does 9% in zone two and 7% at the upper zones where he's slamming out these amazing track workouts that you can look on YouTube.

Brad Kearns: 01:18:39

And he's doing eight times 1,000 meters at 240 pace or whatever.

Brad Kearns: 01:18:43

No, he's a 159 marathon runner, so he's pretty darn fast.

Brad Kearns: 01:18:47

So.

Brad Kearns: 01:18:47

So an easy run for him is six and a half to eight minutes per mile.

Brad Kearns: 01:18:52

Huh.

Brad Kearns: 01:18:52

That's pretty fast, isn't it?

Brad Kearns: 01:18:53

Well, his marathon pace is 4:34 per mile, so most of his running is 2 minutes to 3 1/2 minutes slower than his marathon pace.

Brad Kearns: 01:19:06

Okay, listener, get out your pen.

Brad Kearns: 01:19:08

What's your marathon time?

Brad Kearns: 01:19:09

Oh, I'm an average 4:30.

Brad Kearns: 01:19:11

The average marathon time is 4:31.

Brad Kearns: 01:19:13

Across the world, 2 million marathon runners.

Brad Kearns: 01:19:15

is: 1018

Brad Kearns: 01:19:17

So now let's go 28 to 43% slower than that.

Brad Kearns: 01:19:22

oing to be tipping toe toward: 13:57

Brad Kearns: 01:19:27

What's: 13:57

Brad Kearns: 01:19:29

Brad?

Brad Kearns: 01:19:29

What's a 14 minute mile?

Brad Kearns: 01:19:30

The 14 minute mile represents the human gait pattern switching from jogging to walking.

Brad Kearns: 01:19:36

So if you're going slower than 14 minute mile, you're now walking.

Brad Kearns: 01:19:42

You've now reduced your impact trauma from three to four to one.

Brad Kearns: 01:19:46

And by the way, a lot of people jog at slower than 14 minute mile for some reason.

Brad Kearns: 01:19:50

So they just pound down the road rather than freaking walk at a brisk walk without getting the injuries and the whole thing.

Brad Kearns: 01:19:57

So if your fat max heart rate 121, 128, you go out there and I'm not asking you to go for 50 yards.

Brad Kearns: 01:20:05

I wanted to see if you're going for a six mile run run, you want to keep it under 128 for the entire six mile run.

Brad Kearns: 01:20:12

What's your pace going to be if it's slower than 14 minute mile, then the vast majority of your training, 82 to 84%, in the example of the greatest of all time, the goat is walking.

Brad Kearns: 01:20:23

That might not be well received by the person who loves to jog and burn calories and sweat, but this is how the elite athletes train.

Brad Kearns: 01:20:32

Swimming.

Brad Kearns: 01:20:33

Michael Phelps.

Brad Kearns: 01:20:33

Phelps 27 gold medals.

Brad Kearns: 01:20:36

He trained what, four to five hours a day for 20 years to get those gold medals at least.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:20:44

Yeah, yeah, well I think swimmers are the most overtrained athletes in the world.

Brad Kearns: 01:20:48

Yeah, but it's illustrating like the, the aerobic base and the aerobic training is such a huge component of races lasting from 47 seconds to 4 minutes or whatever.

Brad Kearns: 01:20:59

His, his longest race.

Brad Kearns: 01:21:00

Race.

Brad Kearns: 01:21:00

He needed that aerobic base in order to thrive when he was going full speed.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:21:05

Yeah, well, yeah, I'd say his, his longest event was the 400 IM.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:21:10

So he had the world record in that he went 402.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:21:13

Okay, so 403, which was broken by Leon or Shah.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:21:16

This.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:21:17

Yeah, this guy's incredible.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:21:18

Yeah, yeah.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:21:22

Slowing down that is.

Brad Kearns: 01:21:23

And it's not, you know, not because some guy on a podcast said slow down.

Brad Kearns: 01:21:27

It's like, look, take your heart rate, train properly, see what pace you're at and go run your butt off if you want.

Brad Kearns: 01:21:34

Because I have a lot of friends that are long time runners.

Brad Kearns: 01:21:37

My buddies from my high school running team and my friend Dr.

Brad Kearns: 01:21:42

Stevie who I just climbed cactus to clouds, Palm Springs, the toughest hiking trail in America last week.

Brad Kearns: 01:21:47

He loves running 12 miles couple days a week, 8 miles the other day, 5 miles this day.

Brad Kearns: 01:21:54

He's going at a slower pace every year as he reports back like it used to be 9 minute mile, now it's a 10, now it's an 11.

Brad Kearns: 01:22:01

But it's extremely healthy for him.

Brad Kearns: 01:22:03

It's the centerpiece of his day.

Brad Kearns: 01:22:05

He absolutely loves it out there.

Brad Kearns: 01:22:07

He minds his heart rate.

Brad Kearns: 01:22:08

So it's a comfortable pace and it's slowing down as he gets older.

Brad Kearns: 01:22:11

Appropriately so.

Brad Kearns: 01:22:13

And so whatever age you're at and whatever fitness level you're at, when we were triathletes, we were pretty fit.

Brad Kearns: 01:22:19

We could go run and talk and be doing six 30s on the, on the town Lake trail.

Brad Kearns: 01:22:25

Excuse me.

Brad Kearns: 01:22:25

On your left.

Brad Kearns: 01:22:26

Oh, thank you.

Brad Kearns: 01:22:27

Have a nice day.

Brad Kearns: 01:22:28

How are you doing?

Brad Kearns: 01:22:28

Doing?

Brad Kearns: 01:22:29

You know, I'm the baddest, I'm the baddest boy in Austin running at this pace.

Brad Kearns: 01:22:33

But it's comfortable, relatively speaking, to my fitness level.

Brad Kearns: 01:22:37

So Kipchoge running 630s is for almost everyone listening and almost everyone on the starting line.

Brad Kearns: 01:22:44

It's a freaking walk, right?

Brad Kearns: 01:22:46

Right.

Carrie Barrett: 01:22:46

Yeah.

Carrie Barrett: 01:22:47

Does that also apply for somebody who is time starved, let's say, you know, because it sounds like obviously if I'm going to have to slow my, my hour long run to a walk, perhaps, but I just don't have an, like I can't build in more hours into my day to train.

Carrie Barrett: 01:23:05

So does this 80ish 20% rule now, now I'm using endurance training terms, 80, 20.

Carrie Barrett: 01:23:12

But like does that apply if I am time starved?

Carrie Barrett: 01:23:16

Because sometimes it just feels more efficient to go out there and run, get it done, get my sweat on, on, get that energy and then start my day.

Brad Kearns: 01:23:26

Yeah.

Brad Kearns: 01:23:26

You've just won a free prize on the show for the, the most popular comeback question in response to the edict to slow down and so what if I don't have enough time?

Brad Kearns: 01:23:35

Of course I got to go faster than that.

Brad Kearns: 01:23:38

Right.

Brad Kearns: 01:23:39

And again it's, now we have to step back and say, okay, what's the big picture?

Brad Kearns: 01:23:44

You have limited time to train, you have limited energy and resources.

Brad Kearns: 01:23:47

How should you best allocate the them?

Brad Kearns: 01:23:48

Well, if you're taking notes, Kelly Starrett said 25% goes to mobility, flexibility, preparation, strengthening and all that.

Brad Kearns: 01:23:55

So there's, there's a quarter of your training time and that's not negotiable because you don't have time.

Brad Kearns: 01:24:01

And again, I'm giving examples of elite athletes.

Brad Kearns: 01:24:04

Maybe we should be on the conservative side where if Kipchoge is doing 9% zone 2 and 7%, zone 3, 4 and 5, maybe we should do 5 and 5 or something.

Brad Kearns: 01:24:13

Something.

Brad Kearns: 01:24:14

And for the most part you just want to get fit enough to one day aspire to actually be a runner and run with correct form at a correct heart rate.

Brad Kearns: 01:24:23

And if it's not happening right now, don't worry about it.

Brad Kearns: 01:24:27

You know, put in a lot of time walking or consider a different workout.

Brad Kearns: 01:24:31

And we have a whole appendix in the book of like cardio 2.0.

Brad Kearns: 01:24:35

So the evolution of the cardio scene.

Brad Kearns: 01:24:38

Who said you have to go steady state for a workout?

Brad Kearns: 01:24:40

Who wrote that down?

Brad Kearns: 01:24:42

What's the point?

Brad Kearns: 01:24:43

It's worse on the heart.

Brad Kearns: 01:24:44

We know that from.

Brad Kearns: 01:24:45

We were talking off camera about some of our peers that have suffered extreme heart disturbances in later years due to abusing their heart with too much high, you know, medium to difficult steady state cardio.

Brad Kearns: 01:24:58

So now you have an hour to train.

Brad Kearns: 01:25:00

How about walking?

Brad Kearns: 01:25:02

Doing some 12 to 20 second running technique drills where you do high knees or a skips or butt kicks or straight legs are things that adapt your muscles and make them stronger.

Brad Kearns: 01:25:14

And then walk recovery and then do another set and then when you hit a hill, run up at at a good speed for 12 seconds and then walk for the next three minutes and then jog as you usually jog the whole time.

Brad Kearns: 01:25:26

Jog for a couple few minutes, slow down to a walk because you see that heart rate creeping up to your fat max and get through jogging and walking with sprinting or stop at the bench or stop at the Parkour and do 10 push ups.

Brad Kearns: 01:25:40

That's arguably a vastly superior and saf safer and less stressful workout than someone just huffing and puffing and running at some predetermined pace that maybe they're hoping to compete at.

Brad Kearns: 01:25:52

But like you said earlier too, like you can go and do your run once a week like you always do with the Saturday morning group.

Brad Kearns: 01:25:59

We love meeting at 6:30.

Brad Kearns: 01:26:00

We go to breakfast tacos after we run whatever pace.

Brad Kearns: 01:26:04

Maybe it's pretty strenuous and you feel pretty stressed.

Brad Kearns: 01:26:07

Take the next few days walking, strength training, mobility, flexibility, yoga class.

Brad Kearns: 01:26:13

This will build a more competent athlete in a more all around functional fitness person than a mileage machine.

Carrie Barrett: 01:26:21

I love that.

Carrie Barrett: 01:26:23

I'm on board.

Carrie Barrett: 01:26:23

In fact you had a section in the book that was talking about how to get rid of belly fat which let's be honest, that's what a lot of people want.

Carrie Barrett: 01:26:33

The just tell me what to do and I'll do it.

Carrie Barrett: 01:26:36

And you say part of your formula is slow down, down but also go hard.

Carrie Barrett: 01:26:44

And I think that's what you're talking about here in that formula which is slow, slow down, fat max.

Carrie Barrett: 01:26:50

But Then do your, do your sprints.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:26:52

Huge fan of sprinting.

Brad Kearns: 01:26:53

Yeah, I mean, I'm obsessed with sprinting now and I've transitioned from an endurance athlete and now I'm a sprinter.

Brad Kearns: 01:26:57

So I compete in masters track and field just like you in the swimming, they have divisions and I can't wait to turn 60 because I'm going to be in the 60 plus with a bunch of old wrinkly guys, kick some ass in my favorite events of high jump and 400 meters.

Brad Kearns: 01:27:12

So it's been interesting because I've had to transition my mindset too.

Brad Kearns: 01:27:16

And a sprinter is someone who does explosive work with an extensive amount of rest and recovery afterward.

Brad Kearns: 01:27:24

And an endurance machine, the aerobic system responds to a lot of volume, low intensity, don't need a lot of rest and recovery.

Brad Kearns: 01:27:32

The anaerobic system responds to the opposite, opposite, very low volume, extensive rest and very high performance, explosive output.

Brad Kearns: 01:27:41

So the missing link for a lot of fitness enthusiasts is they don't do any high intensity, explosive activity and they also don't do sufficient resistance training, you know, putting the muscles under load in favor of the giant pie slice for endurance, which it's pretty easy to get an A plus in that.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:28:00

Well, the thought, the thought of sprinting like going all out for maybe 50 meters or 100 meters is frankly scary.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:28:08

Right.

Brad Kearns: 01:28:09

I mean it takes a lot of, it's a, it's a high risk activity.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:28:13

Yeah, I mean I could see that.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:28:14

I could see doing it again.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:28:16

I just have to kind of get into that mindset and build into it.

Brad Kearns: 01:28:19

Right.

Brad Kearns: 01:28:19

Do lower, low impact or no impact for starters.

Brad Kearns: 01:28:23

For the vast majority of people.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:28:25

Yeah.

Brad Kearns: 01:28:25

You're not going out onto the football field field and doing strides with Gabby Thomas here in Austin.

Brad Kearns: 01:28:30

You're going to go up the stairs at the stadium is great.

Brad Kearns: 01:28:33

Or up the building or on the bicycle or on the rowing machine.

Brad Kearns: 01:28:38

It's still a sprint quote, unquote, because you're doing near maximum output for a very short time.

Brad Kearns: 01:28:45

And I just want to distinguish that because there's a lot of popularity of high intensity interval training.

Brad Kearns: 01:28:50

Most of the programming and fitness falls into this category of HIIT training, like CrossFit, like Peloton classes, like boot camp, like step class, the classes that you see at the gym.

Brad Kearns: 01:29:02

And it's, it has a lot of fitness benefits, but it's easily abused and overdone because these workouts are too strenuous and last too long for the vast majority of people.

Brad Kearns: 01:29:14

And so asking for a repeated hard effort where your heart rate's going into anaerobic zone for 30 seconds at a time with only 30 seconds break and another 30 seconds and then a 30 second break.

Brad Kearns: 01:29:26

That's not sprinting.

Brad Kearns: 01:29:27

That's high intensity interval training, which should be done with great care and restraint and not that frequently because the workout itself is too stressful.

Brad Kearns: 01:29:37

And I would love if all the workouts were cut in half.

Brad Kearns: 01:29:40

So I'm a big fan of CrossFit.

Brad Kearns: 01:29:42

All their philosophy is really cool.

Brad Kearns: 01:29:44

You know, it's an explosion of a different, broader concept of fitness.

Brad Kearns: 01:29:48

And I've done a few classes in my time and I was ready to be done halfway because you asked me to do 12 pull ups.

Brad Kearns: 01:29:54

I'm going to hit that bar and I'm going to do it and then come down and rest.

Brad Kearns: 01:29:58

They go, okay, now do eight and now do six and then go over to the box jumps.

Brad Kearns: 01:30:02

I'm like, what are you talking about?

Brad Kearns: 01:30:03

I just gave it my all with those 12.

Brad Kearns: 01:30:05

I might have six or five more in me, but I'm not going to blast myself at one single workout.

Brad Kearns: 01:30:10

And so it brings a high risk of injury and breakdown when you're pushing yourself super hard.

Brad Kearns: 01:30:16

Hard.

Brad Kearns: 01:30:17

I'm not talking about swimming because swimming is so much less body trauma that you can sprint and do a workout that's consisting primarily of sprints.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:30:27

It's, it's, it's a friendly, medium friendly, actually this morning, a buddy of mine, he turned 71 today.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:30:34

So we did: 71100

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:30:37

So: 7000

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:30:38

Oh my gosh.

Brad Kearns: 01:30:39

A thousand yards.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:30:41

Oh, an hour and 45 minutes.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:30:43

No, that's not that long, but a minute 30.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:30:46

And all I was thinking about when I was swimming was your book and slowing down.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:30:51

So I wasn't trying to hammer, you know, minutes, right?

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:30:54

And then I get halfway and I'd be like, you know, what in the world, Cook?

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:30:57

And so I was, I was fine.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:30:59

I was fine.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:31:00

Yeah, right.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:31:01

Just, I was slowing down.

Brad Kearns: 01:31:04

So if you want to integrate sprinting with.

Brad Kearns: 01:31:08

You asked about losing excess body fat, especially visceral fat, which the research shows that sprinting particularly targets visceral fat with the genetic signaling that happens after you push yourself really hard, you can go onto the stationary bike and do a sprint lasting perhaps 15 seconds with a lot of recovery afterward.

Brad Kearns: 01:31:28

Because when you sprint, you want extremely high quality and consistent quality throughout the workout.

Brad Kearns: 01:31:34

It's not a declining scale of effort and performance.

Brad Kearns: 01:31:39

That means you're just fatiguing yourself like you do in a hit work workout.

Brad Kearns: 01:31:42

So you would sprint for 15 seconds.

Brad Kearns: 01:31:44

With great power and great technique, whatever you're doing, and then rest for a couple minutes and just pedal carefully and slowly.

Brad Kearns: 01:31:51

Or you go up to the top of the stairs at the stadium, walk down at your leisure, take your time, check your phone at the bottom, wait it out a little bit, get your breathing regulated, and then hit that staircase again.

Brad Kearns: 01:32:02

And you don't want to go for longer than 20 seconds because it's not really a true spot sprint when you keep extending it out for.

Brad Kearns: 01:32:09

Okay, we're going to sprint for a minute now.

Brad Kearns: 01:32:11

No, that's a, you know, a peak performance effort.

Brad Kearns: 01:32:14

That's different than sprint.

Carrie Barrett: 01:32:15

How many?

Carrie Barrett: 01:32:16

Just, let's say again, average person just getting started.

Carrie Barrett: 01:32:20

So to catch everybody up, like, we've, we've integrated more walking into our routine, so we're not burning ourselves out on sort of the junk miles, if you will.

Carrie Barrett: 01:32:30

So we, we've integrated, we've slowed down, we've integrated more walk walking, but now we want to add some of this power and plyometrics.

Carrie Barrett: 01:32:37

So for somebody who's just getting started, do you recommend like one day a week, maybe five to 10 of these little bursts and then try to build up from there?

Brad Kearns: 01:32:49

Well, here's my template workout.

Brad Kearns: 01:32:51

Four to eight reps of sprints lasting between 10 and 20 seconds, and the recovery to work interval is six to one.

Brad Kearns: 01:33:00

So if you're sprinting for 10 seconds, you rest a minute.

Brad Kearns: 01:33:02

If you're sprinting for 20 seconds, you rest for two minutes.

Brad Kearns: 01:33:06

What's that range for if you're, if you're at 10?

Brad Kearns: 01:33:09

I'm talking about like high impact, like running sprints or running up a hill.

Brad Kearns: 01:33:13

And if it's 20, you can sprint on a bicycle for 20 or a rowing machine or something that's low impact.

Brad Kearns: 01:33:18

So that's the sweet spot.

Brad Kearns: 01:33:19

When you sprint between 10 and 20 seconds, that's not much.

Brad Kearns: 01:33:22

And so you're asking the body for a very high performance, maximum output on the peloton.

Brad Kearns: 01:33:27

On the bike machines, you can see the watts you can call, crank out a lot of watts for 10, 15, 20 seconds, but not for a minute or not for a three minute or.

Brad Kearns: 01:33:36

Everyone's talking about VO2 max workouts where I go four by four and I do that once a week.

Brad Kearns: 01:33:42

That's a ridiculously stressful session that requires a lot of aerobic conditioning just to even benefit from it and recover.

Brad Kearns: 01:33:49

So sprinting, I think is appealing and doable for just about everybody.

Brad Kearns: 01:33:54

When you're talking about low impact impact, and that's all you have to do is 4 to 8 for 10 to 20 seconds, 6 to 1.

Brad Kearns: 01:34:01

Now, you said progress over time, here's the progression.

Brad Kearns: 01:34:06

You get faster, you don't progress to do more and more and more.

Brad Kearns: 01:34:10

That's the endurance mentality leaking into what is a different activity, different metabolic, different energy systems and brain working to promote sprinting.

Brad Kearns: 01:34:21

So you're not going to ever do more than 40 to 8, you're just going to do them faster and better quality over time.

Brad Kearns: 01:34:26

That's how you get, that's how you get fitter.

Carrie Barrett: 01:34:30

So are sprinting, is that more of an anabolic exercise like, is that why it is good for visceral fat loss, is because you've got that afterburn, so to speak?

Brad Kearns: 01:34:42

Good question.

Brad Kearns: 01:34:43

Yeah, we've opened up now.

Brad Kearns: 01:34:44

We're going to get in a little into physiology now.

Carrie Barrett: 01:34:46

I'm getting, I'm digging too deep now.

Brad Kearns: 01:34:48

And high intensity effort of any kind is extremely catabolic.

Brad Kearns: 01:34:53

You need to break down and promote fuel and fuel the cells with ATP.

Brad Kearns: 01:34:58

So you are in breakdown mode to get through that 22nd sprint.

Brad Kearns: 01:35:02

But what happens is because you don't do a zillion trillion of them and because it doesn't go on for an hour and a half or two hours or two and a half hour like a long distance run, you're giving a brief catabolic experience to promote the genetic signaling for anabolism afterward.

Brad Kearns: 01:35:20

Just like when you do a set of bicep curls and you're sending the bicep curl itself is catabolic.

Brad Kearns: 01:35:27

You're breaking down the muscle, even creating micro trauma in the muscle in the weight room.

Brad Kearns: 01:35:32

And then because the muscle had that fitness stimulation, it goes into anabolic mode as soon as you consume the smoothie, smoothie and the recovery fuel.

Brad Kearns: 01:35:43

So it's the signaling that we're thinking about rather than the literal definition of, you know, of anabolic or catabolic.

Brad Kearns: 01:35:50

It gets super confusing.

Brad Kearns: 01:35:51

Like sleep.

Brad Kearns: 01:35:52

Is sleep anabolic or catabolic?

Brad Kearns: 01:35:54

Well, it's both.

Brad Kearns: 01:35:55

It's called amphibolic, where you're doing all these restorative activities during sleep, but you're also breaking down nutrients to send to the muscles to refuel, fuel them.

Brad Kearns: 01:36:07

So not to get too, too off track there, but it's a good question because the, the long distance run is going to put you into catabolic state for a long time afterwards because you're, you know, breaking down, even breaking down lean muscle mass, converting it into sugar, gluconeogenesis to get the fuel.

Brad Kearns: 01:36:28

When you didn't bring enough gels or you push yourself too far.

Carrie Barrett: 01:36:30

I think, yeah, Again, I think we just have to be retrieved, trained as consumers of marketing messages because we have been conditioned to believe that longer is better.

Carrie Barrett: 01:36:41

That if I go out for an hour long run and I burn 100 calories per mile and so like, oh, I just burned 600 calories, great, like, let's go have our tacos.

Carrie Barrett: 01:36:51

And so it's hard to switch that brain and go, wait, you just want me to do like 20 second sprints with all of this recovery, which won't take me nearly as long as that hour long run.

Carrie Barrett: 01:37:04

Yeah, but it's way more effective.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:37:07

You know what?

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:37:08

I'm listening to this.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:37:09

What I'm realizing is we, and I think I said this at the outset, we have to be deprogrammed, right.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:37:16

From everything that we've learned and that's been indoctrinated into our minds for, you know, 20, 30 years.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:37:24

And it's not, it's not easy.

Brad Kearns: 01:37:27

Well, right.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:37:27

I mean, and I'll say, say it's very, very much parallel to what we're trying to do at Plan Strong, which is to get people to stop eating all the crap, no offense here.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:37:38

Stop eating dairy, stop eating animal products, you know, meat.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:37:43

And it's very disruptive.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:37:48

And so I just want to say that I think what you and Mark have done here is really phenomenal.

Brad Kearns: 01:37:56

We've been through it, man.

Brad Kearns: 01:37:58

So that's.

Brad Kearns: 01:37:59

If you want talk about author credibility.

Brad Kearns: 01:38:02

I've been out there breaking my body down and accelerating the aging process, you and I.

Brad Kearns: 01:38:07

Those years that you mentioned, you know, around a decade, a little more for you.

Brad Kearns: 01:38:12

But I feel like I aged 25 or 30 years in that decade.

Brad Kearns: 01:38:17

And I literally felt like.

Brad Kearns: 01:38:19

I shouldn't say literally.

Brad Kearns: 01:38:20

I figuratively felt like I was 70 or 80 years old when I was 30 years old due to what I'd put my body through.

Brad Kearns: 01:38:26

And now I'm just trying to make up for it for the rest of the decades.

Brad Kearns: 01:38:29

But you mentioned something that made me think back to the obligate Munner when we talk about needing to be reprogrammed.

Brad Kearns: 01:38:35

So I think a lot of people have to look in the mirror and decide really what they want to do with their passion and their pursuit of these fitness experiences.

Brad Kearns: 01:38:47

Because a lot of times it's an escape hatch.

Brad Kearns: 01:38:49

It's a vent from all the other forms of stress in life and running away from things that they don't want to face.

Brad Kearns: 01:38:56

And it's a common attribute of, especially when you get to the extreme you know, endurance performers like David Goggins, the best selling author, and everybody marvels at these amazing achievements that he does, but it's like, okay, he didn't give up and he's a tough guy and he went Navy SEALS three times.

Brad Kearns: 01:39:14

But like he's destroying his body in front of our eyes and we celebrate that.

Brad Kearns: 01:39:20

All kinds of stuff.

Brad Kearns: 01:39:22

So let's figure out a balance where you don't need to change anything.

Brad Kearns: 01:39:26

But if there's a possibility of greater appreciation and satisfaction and contentment and all the things that you're looking for, I would definitely be recommending a better approach.

Brad Kearns: 01:39:41

That's looking at your long term.

Brad Kearns: 01:39:43

Simon Whitfield, Olympic gold medal triathlete.

Brad Kearns: 01:39:45

Our buddy, I asked him, I interviewed him after he retired.

Brad Kearns: 01:39:48

He won the Olympic gold in: 2000

Brad Kearns: 01:39:57

Like, what's your, what's your fitness regimen like now?

Brad Kearns: 01:40:01

And he goes, well, today I'm coached by my 80 year old self.

Carrie Barrett: 01:40:06

He's reverse engineering.

Brad Kearns: 01:40:07

That was the best one.

Brad Kearns: 01:40:10

He wants to honor his 80 year old self looking down saying, simon, quit doing that triathlon shit around the world circuit.

Brad Kearns: 01:40:17

You're beating yourself up now.

Brad Kearns: 01:40:18

I want you to go do stand up paddling and some time at the gym and a lot of walking.

Brad Kearns: 01:40:22

So he wants to honor his 80 year old self, is watching.

Brad Kearns: 01:40:25

And that's what we all might, you know, look toward is honoring the years ahead and setting ourselves up for success rather than pain, suffering and demise.

Brad Kearns: 01:40:35

Accelerated demise.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:40:39

What is, what's next for you?

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:40:43

What you just did the Iron man, what's next?

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:40:47

You just did Mount Everest.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:40:48

Everest, what's next?

Brad Kearns: 01:40:50

There's so much more to accomplish in masters track and field as a new enthusiast.

Brad Kearns: 01:40:54

I mean, I've really been obsessed with this for the past four years and really said goodbye to the endurance component of my dedication to fitness.

Brad Kearns: 01:41:03

So it's super fun to learn and mix with these athletes and see what's going on and also to see what's possible through the years.

Brad Kearns: 01:41:11

And you can look on YouTube like these athletes in the higher age group groups.

Brad Kearns: 01:41:16

I race a guy in the 400 meters in national championships, Lee Bridges of Chicago, and he was so far ahead of me.

Brad Kearns: 01:41:22

I came up after the race, I'm like, dude, this is the 55 to 59 category.

Brad Kearns: 01:41:26

What are you doing out there?

Brad Kearns: 01:41:28

And he's like, well, you know, I ran in the 88 Olympic trials against Butch Reynolds and The top guys in the world.

Brad Kearns: 01:41:34

And you know, now he does a 52 second 400 meter, which is like your best varsity guy at any high school.

Brad Kearns: 01:41:41

And he ran 44,5.

Brad Kearns: 01:41:42

And so in 33 years or whatever, he's regressed only seven seconds in an all out performance.

Brad Kearns: 01:41:50

It's amazing.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:41:51

What's the record for 60 to 64?

Brad Kearns: 01:41:55

And this Sue McDonald, I got to give her a plug too.

Brad Kearns: 01:41:57

She's broken a dozen world records in the 60 plus division for women in like all these different events.

Brad Kearns: 01:42:04

400, 800 mile heptathlon.

Brad Kearns: 01:42:08

She just goes to the meets and goes where no human has ever gone before.

Brad Kearns: 01:42:12

So it's really interesting to see, like by definition this person is setting a standard that we've never seen before in that age group.

Brad Kearns: 01:42:19

And whatever she's doing is working.

Brad Kearns: 01:42:21

And so the sprinting community, Cynthia, like I talked about, who was a world champion herself, they're figuring out ways to be healthy and strong because there's no margin for error when you're in the 60 plus division.

Brad Kearns: 01:42:35

And so it's not like today's Olympic gold medalist who flames out with shoulder surgery and a broken knee and sent to the sideline.

Brad Kearns: 01:42:44

Same with NFL player or whatever.

Brad Kearns: 01:42:46

Now we're seeing, and I think to credit the great coaches and the great innovators in physical therapy and sports performance, like, if I had some great guys guiding me when I had my Achilles surgery, I went in there right after and one's Jason, one's Jonathan, they're putting me to work.

Brad Kearns: 01:43:03

I'm like, but it's kind of sore and it still hurts.

Brad Kearns: 01:43:05

And when I woke up, it was really stiff this morning.

Brad Kearns: 01:43:08

And he's like, get the £45 kettlebell, do three sets of those raises and then go over to the pogo and.

Brad Kearns: 01:43:13

And like they're pushing you through rather than sitting around and waiting for your injuries to get better.

Brad Kearns: 01:43:19

And it was a real eye opener for me.

Brad Kearns: 01:43:20

Like, we have to fight this battle on every front and those runners that are getting injured.

Brad Kearns: 01:43:25

And I, I mentioned the list of different things.

Brad Kearns: 01:43:28

Get those hip flexors mobile, get do some banded mountain climbers in the gym and learn how to use the mini bands.

Brad Kearns: 01:43:34

Mini bands are like four bucks, right?

Brad Kearns: 01:43:36

For the band you put around your ankle.

Brad Kearns: 01:43:38

It's probably the most versatile and challenging and amazing fitness experience that you can travel with on the road and rock your world in like one minute of doing monster walks or the things that we do.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:43:51

Did you, did you tear your Achilles?

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:43:53

What happened?

Brad Kearns: 01:43:54

I got a bone spur.

Brad Kearns: 01:43:55

So.

Brad Kearns: 01:43:56

A bone spur is when you repeatedly stress the tendon and pull it away from the bone to the point where the bone fills in the gap.

Brad Kearns: 01:44:04

And so this is.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:44:05

How did you get.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:44:06

That almost sounds as bad as a stress fracture.

Brad Kearns: 01:44:09

It's interesting and it is.

Brad Kearns: 01:44:11

I do have an L on my forehead.

Brad Kearns: 01:44:13

It's wearing off now for that.

Brad Kearns: 01:44:15

But here's the funny thing, and this is a great, great thing to mention is I'm not stupid, right?

Brad Kearns: 01:44:22

I don't want to push through the pain of an injury.

Brad Kearns: 01:44:25

So what would happen is every morning I'd wake up and I'd feel like crap and super stiff with my foot.

Brad Kearns: 01:44:31

And then I'd put it through some rotational exercises and calf raises and then I'd.

Brad Kearns: 01:44:35

I'd stretch my lower back and then things would feel good and I'd go out and I'd warm up carefully and I'd get sweaty and warm and I'd do the workout and feel great.

Brad Kearns: 01:44:44

And then I end up in the.

Brad Kearns: 01:44:45

I went to physical therapy so much, they're like, dude, guess where I'm sending you today.

Brad Kearns: 01:44:49

We're not going to do our session.

Brad Kearns: 01:44:51

Drive down the street.

Brad Kearns: 01:44:52

You need to get imaging and see Dr.

Brad Kearns: 01:44:54

Gulato because you're in deep crap.

Brad Kearns: 01:44:56

You've.

Brad Kearns: 01:44:56

You've been dealing with this.

Brad Kearns: 01:44:57

They asked me, how long has this been bothering you?

Brad Kearns: 01:44:59

I go, like, a year.

Brad Kearns: 01:45:00

And the guy's eyes bugged out.

Brad Kearns: 01:45:01

Like a year.

Brad Kearns: 01:45:03

What?

Brad Kearns: 01:45:03

Like, sure, all kinds of things bugged me for a year.

Brad Kearns: 01:45:06

My left shoulder hurts since I wiped out on the E foil for two years, you know.

Brad Kearns: 01:45:09

So the doctor says her epic one liner because I'm telling you what I just described, like, I felt fine during the workout.

Brad Kearns: 01:45:16

Yeah, it hurt in the morning.

Brad Kearns: 01:45:17

She goes, oh, the tendons fool you when they become inflamed.

Brad Kearns: 01:45:23

Please take that back with you, listeners.

Brad Kearns: 01:45:25

The tendons fool you when you become inflamed.

Brad Kearns: 01:45:27

So you want to measure your state of readiness.

Brad Kearns: 01:45:30

Recovery, recovery and stability.

Brad Kearns: 01:45:32

First thing in the morning when you walk down the hall to pee.

Brad Kearns: 01:45:36

And since the triathlon days of 30 something years ago, that first thing in the morning walk was a shuffle, man.

Brad Kearns: 01:45:42

It wasn't ballet dancer floating down the hall.

Brad Kearns: 01:45:45

It was like dragging your body through until you get it warmed up.

Brad Kearns: 01:45:48

And it's a great takeaway because now it's like, I want to be functional all the time.

Brad Kearns: 01:45:54

And as soon as I wake up and get out of bed, I expect to feel good.

Brad Kearns: 01:45:58

And if something's a little off, I'm going to work that area and get it stronger and Address these functional weaknesses rather than drag myself to.

Brad Kearns: 01:46:06

And the same goes for all the, you know, the massage guns and the cream and the stimulator machines.

Brad Kearns: 01:46:12

Okay, Those are fine.

Brad Kearns: 01:46:14

My trainer, my physical therapist, Jonathan calls it spa day.

Brad Kearns: 01:46:19

It's like, yeah, I got a, I got a warm belt.

Brad Kearns: 01:46:21

It really feels good on my back.

Brad Kearns: 01:46:23

That's spa day, man.

Brad Kearns: 01:46:24

Get the kettlebell and do your marches and build those muscles.

Brad Kearns: 01:46:27

And so that's like, if you're getting strong, you can't go wrong, is his line.

Brad Kearns: 01:46:32

And I'm living by that now, where I just want to fight this battle, respecting and knowing that at my age, things are different.

Brad Kearns: 01:46:39

I remember at some birthday I heard, you know, hey, happy birthday.

Brad Kearns: 01:46:46

Yeah, age is just a number.

Brad Kearns: 01:46:48

And some.

Brad Kearns: 01:46:49

Someone said, no, it's not just an effing number.

Brad Kearns: 01:46:51

And if you think that you got some issues that you need to address right now, so it's not just a number.

Brad Kearns: 01:46:56

And you can't breezily write it off by saying, that's just a number.

Brad Kearns: 01:47:00

I feel young at heart.

Brad Kearns: 01:47:01

No, here's your chronological age.

Brad Kearns: 01:47:04

Here's your state of your body.

Brad Kearns: 01:47:06

And we have to make adjustments and recalibrations on account of aging and then preserve our youthful spirit and our ambition to keep doing adventurous activities.

Brad Kearns: 01:47:15

Life.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:47:16

You got a podcast that's doing really, really well.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:47:21

What's the name of it and how can people listen to it?

Brad Kearns: 01:47:23

The Be Rad Podcast is where all podcasts are found, including Plantstrong.

Brad Kearns: 01:47:28

And I have some wonderful guests.

Brad Kearns: 01:47:30

And I do a lot of shows myself where I'm just covering a topic and I want to give people really direct, step by step tidbits to implement right away.

Brad Kearns: 01:47:39

And it's so fun.

Brad Kearns: 01:47:40

Rip.

Brad Kearns: 01:47:41

Like you said, like, how do we end up here?

Brad Kearns: 01:47:42

When we were goofing around and talking at the, at the dinner table in France before the race and getting into the favorite health topics that we've been obsessed with for so long.

Brad Kearns: 01:47:51

So it's kind of cool to bring it to everybody.

Brad Kearns: 01:47:54

And.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:47:54

Well, you know what?

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:47:56

I remember when I was a firefighter and you were an author and you wrote how does Lance do it?

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:48:03

How does Tiger do it?

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:48:05

You know, you can make a living doing that.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:48:07

That was, I think, the first book he ever wrote.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:48:09

Wrote.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:48:09

And you were standing in front of a, an airplane engine, I think.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:48:14

I don't know how you referring to my triathlon career.

Brad Kearns: 01:48:16

Yeah, yeah, we had a five minute cameo on the, on the airfield.

Brad Kearns: 01:48:20

It was great.

Brad Kearns: 01:48:21

Yeah.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:48:21

But yeah, it's, it's, it's been quite, quite the journey that we've both been on.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:48:28

And anyway, I'm just gonna say that this book is.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:48:33

I highly recommend.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:48:35

Recommend that people get it.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:48:38

And there's so many great takeaways, and I think it's just a smarter, more intelligent way of.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:48:47

Of moving and.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:48:50

And staying in shape and just feeling.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:48:53

Feeling your best.

Brad Kearns: 01:48:55

Right, Right.

Brad Kearns: 01:48:56

You have more energy to do it.

Brad Kearns: 01:48:57

Right.

Brad Kearns: 01:48:58

Rather than slog yourself.

Brad Kearns: 01:48:59

Yeah.

Carrie Barrett: 01:48:59

I think it's great for people who.

Carrie Barrett: 01:49:01

Who might just be starting a movement routine and think that, well, I gotta sign up for a 5k or I've gotta go do a marathon, because, again, we've set that standard of, like, that's the only means of success, and it's just not so for people that have often thought or been told that walking is useless, this book will assure you that it's not useless.

Carrie Barrett: 01:49:28

In fact, it's probably more healthy than jumping into a running routine, which, as you explain, explained is.

Carrie Barrett: 01:49:34

Could be riddled with setbacks and injuries and frustrations and health issues.

Carrie Barrett: 01:49:39

So I do think it's great for that, for a newbie, so to speak.

Carrie Barrett: 01:49:42

I think it's also great for some old crusty woman like me who's been at this for a long time and is at the precipice of where you're at too, both of you.

Carrie Barrett: 01:49:54

And that is, how can I continue to be active and fit and healthy into my 80s and into my 90s?

Carrie Barrett: 01:50:01

And so.

Carrie Barrett: 01:50:01

So, yeah, it's time to start tweaking things.

Carrie Barrett: 01:50:04

It's time to start changing things around and turn it more into play.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:50:09

And I think the thing is that for me, because I don't do any of this right now, right.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:50:16

But this has.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:50:19

It's tickled my fancy and my intellect in a way to where I'm like.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:50:24

But it makes so much bloody sense that I need to make some, I think, major.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:50:33

A major overhaul to my current way of thinking around what represents fitness, what represents kind of longevity.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:50:49

And I feel like just naturally, before we sign off naturally.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:50:54

I think that's one of the reasons why I've been gravitating towards pickleball, because my body has naturally said, you don't want to continue to pound yourself into the sand, whether it's mountain biking, whether it's swimming, you know, I've kind of given up the running just because.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:51:10

But still, it's like, oh, I gotta go, go, go, go, go, go.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:51:14

And so this.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:51:16

This couldn't have come and hit me at a better time.

Brad Kearns: 01:51:20

Right on Ripper.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:51:21

Yeah.

Brad Kearns: 01:51:22

Well, if there's an intervention to do right away.

Brad Kearns: 01:51:25

I would say people start through sprinting and go for 10 seconds and do low or no impact where there's zero injury risk.

Brad Kearns: 01:51:34

We don't want you running out on the, on the track with Gabby Thomas yet, but if you can hit that bicycle hard and take it from you see the people in the gym watching TV and they're putting their, you know, they're going for 47 minutes straight.

Brad Kearns: 01:51:47

They already have an A plus in cardio.

Brad Kearns: 01:51:49

You know, Dr.

Brad Kearns: 01:51:50

James O'Keefe, I think you've talked to him or he's the expert cardio.

Brad Kearns: 01:51:54

He has research that if you accumulate like a couple hours of very low intensity cardio every week, you get an A plus as far as disease prevention.

Brad Kearns: 01:52:06

You max out your benefits and then as you exceed that, the curve starts to go down where you have invite potentially increased heart disease risk from overdoing it.

Brad Kearns: 01:52:17

So and again, all exercises are a form of cardio, so they all count.

Brad Kearns: 01:52:21

So going into the gym and doing the weights circuit and walking and if you love running, go do your 10k on the weekend.

Brad Kearns: 01:52:28

But if you start sprinting, you're going to get a huge return on investment, vastly more than any other workout for weight loss and for increasing your fitness in a short time.

Carrie Barrett: 01:52:39

And then my other takeaway was just bringing in bare barefoot mentality to just everyday activities.

Carrie Barrett: 01:52:47

That was another big takeaway for foot strengthening, for posture, for, for all the reasons that you stated in that are in the book.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:52:55

I can't wait to get into that.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:52:56

I mean late lately.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:52:58

All I've been wearing, and I know you guys kind of bash Birkenstocks a little bit, but you know, all I've been wearing is the Birkenstocks and my toes, I mean look at, look at.

Brad Kearns: 01:53:05

Look at those phenomenal toes.

Brad Kearns: 01:53:06

Rip is showing if you're not on camera.

Brad Kearns: 01:53:10

Seriously tremendous.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:53:11

No, it is pretty good.

Carrie Barrett: 01:53:12

Well, that's, that's why you're all American.

Brad Kearns: 01:53:14

Swimmer, is that those are freaking flippers, man.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:53:17

Show people your shoes.

Brad Kearns: 01:53:18

Yeah, so I'm wearing Paluvas and that's the venture that Mark and I are involved in.

Brad Kearns: 01:53:23

My co author.

Brad Kearns: 01:53:24

And these are distinct because they have five individual toe slots.

Brad Kearns: 01:53:28

And this is a huge innovation in footwear because this is a true barefoot experience.

Brad Kearns: 01:53:35

All the minimalist shoes are also a great break from the destruction and damage caused by regular shoes shoes.

Brad Kearns: 01:53:42

But if you can get that as close to barefoot as possible as often as possible.

Brad Kearns: 01:53:47

Again, not interfering with your favorite cushioned shoes you're running in, but get those feet strong again because those are, those are the source of all movement.

Brad Kearns: 01:53:54

They initiate all complex kinetic chain activity when we're connected to the ground or want to jump off the ground like me.

Brad Kearns: 01:54:00

So that's a great takeaway.

Brad Kearns: 01:54:03

Start sprinting.

Brad Kearns: 01:54:04

Start thinking about a more barefoot inspired.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:54:06

Lifestyle complex chain activity, baby.

Brad Kearns: 01:54:10

And be, be plant strong.

Brad Kearns: 01:54:11

As always.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:54:12

As always, as always, Brad.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:54:15

Thank you.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:54:16

Thank you my brother.

Carrie Barrett: 01:54:19

Thanks for inviting me to play.

Brad Kearns: 01:54:22

Much fun everybody.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:54:23

Great having you.

Brad Kearns: 01:54:23

Thanks for listening and watching.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:54:28

Born to Walk the broken promises of the Running Booth and How to Slow down and Get Healthy One Step at a Time comes out on January 7th and you can pre order it now for fast delivery and I'll be sure to put the link in the show notes to make it super easy for you.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:54:47

insightful as you start your: 2025

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:54:58

Just getting out for a walk each day may be the path that is right for you and this book will help you take that first step.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:55:07

Let's do it together, shall we?

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:55:09

Happy New Year and remember my Plan Strong cousins to always always keep it Plan Strong.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:55:18

The Plan Strong podcast team includes Carrie Barrett, Lori Cordowicz and Amy Mackey.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:55:25

If you like what you here, do us a favor and share the show with your friends and loved ones.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:55:31

You can always leave a five star rating and review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:55:36

And while you're there, make sure to hit that follow button so that you never miss an episode.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:55:43

As always, this and every episode is dedicated to my parents, Dr.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:55:48

Caldwell B.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:55:49

Esselstyn Jr.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:55:50

And Anne Cryo Esselstyn.

Rheb Esselstyn: 01:55:53

Thanks so much for listening.