Shownotes
There is a particular kind of person who can stand in a pulpit on Sunday morning and ask people to consider their souls. There is another kind of person who can kick down a door on Tuesday night and face whatever is on the other side. What happens when those two people are the same person?
On Mind Over Matter, Saima sits with Eric Robinson, a former Baptist pastor who spent twenty-four years as an FBI special agent and fifteen of those as a SWAT operator. This is a conversation about identity, the quiet weight of carrying other people's worst moments, and the surprisingly simple practices that kept him intact through it all. Whether you have stood in a pulpit or never plan to, what Eric shares about self-reflection, resilience, and the limits of trauma will reach the part of you that is still figuring out how to hold yourself together.
About the Guest:
Eric Robinson is a retired FBI special agent with twenty-four years of service investigating drugs, gangs, civil rights, financial crimes, crimes against children, and national security. He spent fifteen of those years as a SWAT operator. Before the Bureau, he served twelve years in Christian ministry, including planting and pastoring a Baptist church in Western New York. His forthcoming memoir, Irreverend: From Saving Souls to Chasing Sinners in the FBI, releases this fall and brings together the humour, weight, and wisdom of a career most people only see on a screen.
Key Takeaways:
- Identity does not switch when the job does. Eric carried the same values, the same skills, the same person from the pulpit into the FBI, and now into retirement.
- Stress is not the same in every setting. Ministry left Eric with daily headaches for two years. The FBI was harder in different ways, but the weight did not stay with him the same way.
- Self-reflection is the anchor. Pausing to ask "What am I feeling? What is this doing to me?" prevents internalising what you are absorbing day after day.
- Speaking it aloud is the practice. Having trusted people you can name what you are carrying with, not as therapy but as plain honest conversation, releases what would otherwise stay inside.
- Humans overestimate how much trauma will destroy them, and underestimate how resilient they actually are. You will rebound. You may be changed, but you will be capable again.
- Awareness creates a gap between reaction and response. That gap is where better decisions live, and it is available to anyone willing to pause.
Connect With the Guest:
- Instagram: @_eric_robinson
- Forthcoming Book: Irreverend: From Saving Souls to Chasing Sinners in the FBI (Fall 2026). Book website to be announced.
Episode Chapters:
[00:00] Welcome to Mind Over Matter — the pulpit, the door, and the same person
[03:00] Identity after retirement — sloughing off twenty-four years
[06:30] The biggest misconception about Eric's pivot from pastor to FBI
[10:00] Why ministry gave him daily headaches and the FBI did not
[14:00] Survivor stories, gallows humor, and the camaraderie of agents
[18:30] Self-reflection as the practice that keeps cynicism from setting in
[23:00] Why humans overestimate trauma and underestimate their own resilience
[27:00] A closing word — pause is the practice, awareness is the anchor
🎙️ Want to Be a Guest on Healthy Mind, Healthy Life?
Send me a direct message on PodMatch.
👉 DM Me Here: https://www.podmatch.com/hostdetailpreview/avik
🌱 About Healthy Mind By Avik™️
Healthy Mind By Avik™️ Global Mental Wellness Podcast Network - focused, credible, no more identity clutter.
👉 Subscribe and be part of this healing journey.
Refer a Guest
Know someone who would be a great fit for one of our podcast shows? Email us at [email protected] with the subject line “Refer a Guest.” Requests without this subject line cannot be catered to.
Support Our Podcast: Support this Podcast
📬 Contact & Links
Brand: Healthy Mind By Avik™️
Based in: India & USA
📌 Disclaimer - This episode is produced for educational and informational purposes only. All views expressed by the guest are their personal opinions alone and do not represent the views of the host or Healthy Mind by Avik™. The Network does not verify, endorse, or assume responsibility for any guest statements. Nothing in this episode constitutes medical, legal, financial, or professional advice, please consult a qualified professional before making any decisions. Listeners are encouraged to engage critically and independently with all content do not consume blindly. Use this content as a starting point for your own reflection and research, not as a substitute for professional guidance. Third-party content is referenced under fair use for informational purposes only. Guest speakers are solely responsible for their own statements.
If you have concerns about any content, please contact us here
By listening, you acknowledge and accept this disclaimer in full. Read detailed disclaimer here.
#podmatch #healthymindbyavik #podhub.club #MindOverMatter #FBIStories #SWATOperator #PastorToAgent #EricRobinson #MentalResilience #StressManagement #SelfReflection #LawEnforcementWellness #FaithAndService #TraumaResilience #IdentityShift #MindfulPause #IrreverendBook
Transcripts
00:00:08 Saima: Welcome back to Mind Over Matter, the show where we look honestly at what it takes to keep a human mind strong, steady, and through the hardest things life throws at us. I'm Simon, and today's guest has lived a life that most of us have only seen on a screen. Eric Robinson has spent twelve years in Christian ministry. Before stepping out of the Baptist pulpit and into twenty four years with the FBI, where he investigated drugs, gangs, civil rights cases, financial crimes, crimes against children, and national security. For fifteen of those years, he served as a Swat operator. He is also the author of a forthcoming book, From Saving Souls to Chasing Sinners in the FBI. We are talking about that transition, The work itself and what it really takes to manage your mind in the middle of all of it. So thank you for being here.
00:01:08 Eric Robinson: Thanks so much, I appreciate it.
00:01:10 Saima: You're warmly welcome, Eric. So, Eric, before you go, you know, before we go anywhere serious, I want to start with something simple. Like most people know one version of you, the minister, you know, or the agent. So when you wake up on a regular morning today, who is the Eric who walks into the kitchen first? You know, the agent also one the rest of us haven't met yet.
00:01:33 Eric Robinson: Well, I'm a long way removed from being a minister and just three months removed from being an agent and having retired, that was one of the biggest confrontations I needed to have, which is for twenty four years, I was that person, the one who was dedicated to doing the work of the FBI. And it was more than just a role. It very much became an identity. So I am doing my best to slough off that idea because that's not me anymore. And yet, at the same time, the man who was a pastor and the man who was an agent was the same person. I brought many of my own beliefs and skills and practices into ministry and those carried over into the FBI as well. So it. I am the person I was, I just now have those experiences to reflect upon and some of the skills that I got to garner over all of those years of my career to, I guess, put it into practice in civilian life now.
00:02:45 Saima: Mhm. Mhm. That's really interesting, Eric, because it sounds like you didn't leave one identity behind, you know, to come another. You carry those experiences with you and let them shape you showed up in a completely different, uh, different space. And that part about needing that confrontation, it feels like there was something deeper driving that shift, not just a career move, but something more personal, I feel. And it also says a lot that you brought those same skills and practices into ministry. It's not like you became someone new. You just expressed it in a different way. Right?
00:03:22 Eric Robinson: Yeah. I would say that that is very accurate. So I got into ministry because of what I valued and who I am. And I then was in law enforcement for some of the same purposes, but I, I was still who I was, I still had values to do God's work. Obviously, that works in the church that got carried out in the FBI as well. I had a desire to treat people well, to assist them, to make their lives a better place. So I could do that in the church and in the FBI. I was doing the same. It was just a different form. So, you know, now it now it's all of that that I've learned and practice put together. And in moving into that absolutely third phase of my life into a third, you know, third section of having done one thing, having done another, and now breaking into the the retirement phase.
00:04:27 Speaker 3: Mhm, mhm.
00:05:06 Saima: Now, let's stick with that for a moment. So when people hear that someone, you know, left the pulpit for the FBI, they're almost always a clean, dramatic story. They construct in their head, honestly, like, like a loss of faith, a scandal, a complete one eighty. So I'm curious, like, what's the biggest misconception people walk in with when they hear your story for the first time? And what's the truth that's harder to fit into a sentence?
00:05:34 Eric Robinson: Well, most of the people who met me wouldn't have guessed. I mean, who's going to guess that an FBI agent used to be a Baptist pastor? And I would often quiz people that I just meet, and my buddies would find it funny to play around to, to say, hey, guess what this guy used to do? Uh, so it was a unique move. And while people might think of it as a one eighty, in some ways, it was also just very natural. Um, I'm fortunate because the FBI seeks out a diverse set of skills and people with many different backgrounds. So for me, I had studied prior to, uh, applying to the FBI, I'd studied Islam, I had worked with Muslims. My application was in process when nine over eleven struck and the United States was dealing with, um, Muslim terrorists with al Qaeda. And I think that was a large reason why the FBI said they take a chance on me. So that was what got me in. And it makes sense in retrospect. Of course, my first job was on a drug squad, so the bureau didn't seem like they wanted to use some of my background and skills, but I made the most of it.
00:06:52 Saima: That makes sense, I see. Absolutely, that makes sense. And I would say that, you know, that's interesting, Eric, because it sounds like this wasn't a sudden pivot. It was something that had been there even before the FBI almost, you know, like a thread running underneath everything. What you have done and the fact that you studied it earlier, it makes a transition feel less like a switch and more like something you eventually return to with a different set of experiences. And it's almost like those paths weren't separate, right? They were building on each other in ways that only makes sense looking back.
00:07:29 Eric Robinson: Well, if you view it from from beyond like you are, or if you want to take a spiritual point of view to say, this is how God orchestrated my life. Um, I think that is true. They're my practices that the things that I did as a minister of counseling, people of listening, that was absolutely a useful skill in law enforcement because no matter what type of equipment we use, judicial process or sophisticated techniques, agents have to talk to people and we have to interact with informants. We have to deal with victims, with witnesses, and eventually we have to confront criminals too. So that ability was something that I got to try out quite a bit as a pastor and hone some of those skills and then use them in a different calling.
00:08:25 Speaker 3: Mhm.
00:08:26 Saima: Staying with that idea, like both of those professionals, you know, professions, ministry and federal law enforcement ask you to carry the weight of other people's, you know, worst moments, the confession and the pure, the crime scene at midnight. So underneath all the training and the calling, what do you actually think is actually, you know, happening to a person who absorbs that much human weight year after year?
00:08:53 Eric Robinson: Well, for me, the weight that you just described, the stressors of working in ministry is the reason I had to leave because I found myself incapable of unburdening what people brought to me. So I endured stress related headaches from ministry every single day for two years and had to move to something else. And I joke that I found something less stressful in the FBI, but it just absolutely was. I experienced stress, I experience many difficulties in the FBI, but it was just a different stress, one that didn't continue to weigh me down. So for me, it was much easier to encounter those small traumas, the difficulties, the harsh things that we would see and then move on and move on to the next issue. But what I found that agents so often would do to deal with the tragedies, the hardships that we would see, would be to just talk about it, and we would tell stories about some of the crazy things that we encountered. Many of them were life threatening, and we would laugh about it. And in a sense, they were survivor stories that we would tell. This is what I've been through, and yet I've I've made it past that.
00:10:23 Saima: That makes sense. That's really powerful indeed. And, you know, also very real. The fact that you can name something as physical as headaches. It shows that this kind of way doesn't stay in the mind. It it lives in the body, too. And what stands out is how differently you experienced it. Seeing it felt easier in the FBI. That says a lot about, you know, training structure, maybe even how the mind prepares itself depending on the environment. It sounds like you found a way to carry that weight without, you know, letting it completely overwhelm you. And that's something most people understand from the outside.
00:10:57 Eric Robinson: Yeah. It did. I, I don't know if I learned skills, it was just something that was less personal. So when, when someone in my congregation came and said, uh, I think my wife is leaving me, you know, I've, I've had those situations. Uh, I had a, a young girl who got pregnant at sixteen and then miscarried. And I had a, you know, one of my first services was doing a funeral for an infant. So those things were hard. And even though I've seen people being shot. I have dealt with other very gruesome matters. It it didn't have to stay with me. It was now moving on to a new issue to tackle and try to bring justice for in the church. It was, you know, it continued to be something I cared about. So there was nothing special. I was confronted with that other pastors didn't have. I just did a poor job of separating myself from it.
00:12:03 Saima: Really puts it into perspective, Eric, because those aren't abstract situations for sure. Those are real lives turning into real turning points for people and being the one who steps into those moments. It's not something you just switch off at the end of the day. And it sounds like, you know, there's an emotional weight to that, which doesn't always get talked about, especially when you're dealing with situations that are complex, sensitive, and deeply human. And the fact that you say it wasn't easy, that honestly matters because from the outset, people often assume you just get to use it. You know, you just get used to it. So staying with that, like when you are in those kinds of moments, you where someone's life is shifting in front of you, how do you stay present without letting it overwhelm you internally?
00:12:49 Eric Robinson: Well, I think it takes self-reflection. So when being in the FBI, you know, we're encountering criminal behavior all the time. And it's very easy to become cynical when every day, as you start your day, you are now spending the next eight, ten hours looking at criminal behavior. It can make a person sour. It can make someone think that there are no good people in the world. But it takes self-reflection to pause and to say, what is this doing to me, you know? What am I experiencing? What am I feeling? What am I noticing of a bias or prejudice that's coming out of this? And then having for me, like minded people that I could trust to talk this through, not in a counseling, not in a therapeutic way, though it was therapeutic, but just having a discussion of what I was observing. And I think that many times, simply speaking it aloud addressed the issues rather than internalizing and letting that stay within myself. So recognizing it, identifying it within myself, and then speaking it out loud to a trusted partner was a way that I dealt with these issues.
00:14:13 Saima: So because self awareness sounds simple, but in those moments, everything. It's what you know, lets you notice what's happening inside you without getting pulled under by it. And I think that's something people underestimate. They look for complex techniques, but it often starts with just being aware of your own reactions in real time, like you said. And it, you know, I would say it sounds like that awareness becomes your anchor in the situations that could easily overwhelm someone. So I want to widen this out a bit, like because you've worked across civil rights drugs, crimes against children, each one carrying a very different kind of weight. So I'm curious from everything I've seen, what's one practical or psychological approach you would want any person to understand when they are facing situations that feel bigger than them? And more specifically, what's something more than a mindset that actually translates into everyday life?
00:15:08 Eric Robinson: Yeah. For me, it is. After so many years and experiences having the recognition that human beings typically overestimate the impact, a negative impact that trauma, poor choices, uh, negative issues in their life are going to have. We overestimate how bad that is going to destroy us. And we underestimate the resilience of humans. And so having been through many different things in my life, I now can look back and say, oh yeah, that did hurt me. Yes, that was a poor choice that I made. Uh, yes, I did go through something that impacted me. And then I rebound and recenter and I might be changed, but I now come back to a place where I'm still very capable. It doesn't destroy me. It may just put me to a different center. So I think if people are fearful, fearful of what is in front of them, to realize that even if they truly are making a bad choice, the wrong choice, they they'll overcome it. Uh, I I'm still here. I've made many bad choices, and I'm now at a point in my life where I can realize nothing is going to impact me so much that I can't recover.
00:16:36 Saima: That's not encouragement. That's a really powerful way to look at it, because it shifts the focus from the situation itself to how we perceive it, you know, and what you're pointing to, that tendency to overestimate the threat in front of us. It's something so many people do without realizing it. It almost means that a big part of handling difficult moments isn't about becoming together, you know, but about seeing things more clearly, not letting fear distort what's actually there. And that idea that if you can face what's in front of you, you can move through it. That's something people can really carry into everyday life. So I want to explore the other side of that. Like what is the part of that mindset that doesn't translate the part civilians sometimes try to adopt from that world, but that doesn't actually serve them in everyday life.
00:17:27 Eric Robinson: Well, I think in some cases, there's certainly going to be times where that self-reflection isn't there, and that's fine. I, I think if you can have a mindful practice that is regular and often during the day, that's probably going to be best. But at a time, at some point when things calm down, people need to take a moment to reflect and to consider what they're going through now and and more importantly, what they've been through similar to this in the past and what have been the results and recognizing the, the limited harm that has come or if there has been great harm that now they have rebounded into a new place. So while it may not be useful in everyday life there, it's, I would say, a best practice to find some point where you can stop and reflect and consider what have these traumas done to me? What do I need to address for myself? And then where am I in this whole scheme of other problems coming into my life or fears that I have?
00:18:46 Speaker 3: Mhm.
00:18:47 Saima: That's a really important point, because what you're saying is it's not about always having it figured out in the moment. Sometimes the gap is not just pausing long enough to reflect, and it almost brings the whole conversation back to awareness again, not just in high stress moments, but also in everyday life. And I feel it sounds simple, but it creates space between reaction and response. And that's probably where better decisions come from, actually. So Eric, your book from Saving Souls to Chasing Sinners in the FBI is coming out this fall. Right. And I have a feeling a lot of our listeners are going to want to follow your work and stay connected. So where's the best place for them to find you, your work and the book?
00:19:34 Eric Robinson: So people can follow me on Instagram at underscore Eric underscore Robinson or on LinkedIn a similar way, or if they want to directly follow what's going on with my book, they can go to preacher to preacher dot com because I used to be a preacher, and then I was the guy who knocked on your door. So preacher to preacher dot com.
00:19:59 Saima: Oh, that's surely going to be beneficial for all our listeners out there, Eric and listeners. That's our episode. Thank you, Eric, for trusting us The story that most people would either got too closely or turn into a headline. And thank you for listening, listeners. If something in this conversation gave you a quite a way to think about your own pleasure, your own faith, your own strength. Sit with it for a minute before you go on with your day. That pause is the practice. This has been mind over matter. And I am Simon. Stay strong. Stay honest with yourself and we'll see you next time.
