It’s often said that no friendship is an accident. In this special holiday episode, our final one for 2024, hosts Scott “Sourdough” Power and Man One reflect on the enduring bond they've cultivated over the years. Their ability to weather life's many ups and downs is a testament to their strong friendship, which has provided unwavering support, laughter, and many opportunities for creativity. In today’s episode, the two friends share heartfelt stories about their challenges and emphasize how creativity has guided them through tough times. The conversation is a warm reminder of the power of maintaining a positive mindset and the health hurdles that often accompany the life of an artist. 

Sourdough and Man One also explore what it means to be an artist today, discussing the passion that fuels their creativity and exploring the intriguing crossover between art and sports. They share insightful reflections on how society views artists, the struggles they encounter, and the vital need to find purpose and meaning in their work. Their conversation also touches on childhood influences, the debate between raw talent and hard work, and the personal journeys that lead artists to discover their true selves. 

The two friends explore the intersection of art, culture, and the immigrant experience, shedding light on the challenges and influences that shape an artist's path. The conversation touches on themes like the perceived immaturity of artists, the pressures from immigrant families, the significance of education, and the tough choices between gang life and a committed pursuit of artistic expression. They reflect on themes of personal growth, the complexities of urban life, and the transformative power of travel and exposure to diverse cultures. The role of art as a means of truth-telling comes to the forefront as they share their experiences in Los Angeles, address the struggles of marginalized communities, and inspire hope for the future, especially with aspirations for 2025. 

In their discussion, Sourdough and Man One emphasize the vital roles of empathy and collaboration in their friendship. Join them as they reflect on the pivotal moments that have deepened their connection and made their experience truly remarkable.

For more information, please visit https://notrealart.com/holiday-cheer-2024

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For creative audiences only.

The Not Real Art podcast celebrates creativity and creative culture worldwide.

It contains material that is fresh, fun.

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Now let's get started and enjoy the show.

Greetings and salutations, my creative brothers and sisters.

Welcome to Not Real Art, the podcast where we talk to the world's most creative people.

I'm your host.

Faithful, trusty, loyal, tireless, relentless host.

Sourdough coming at you from Crew West Studio in Los Angeles.

It's the holidays.

This is one of our holiday shows, and I am joined by my partner in crime, my brother from another mother, my dear, dear friend and business partner of fucking, like, how long?

20 years?

I don't even know.

But when we started this podcast, it was just him and me chopping it up like we do.

The one and only man, one in the house.

Merry fucking Christmas.

Happy holidays, partner.

How you doing?

Doing good, man.

Happy holidays to you, too.

And, yeah, we haven't done one of these in a while, huh?

It's been a minute.

It's been a minute.

You know, like, there have been many holiday times where.

Well, we try to get together every holiday to do something like this, but in terms of, like, us podcasting together, it's few and far between now, and so this is super special.

I'm glad you.

You're so damn busy anymore and life's so crazy anymore that it's hard to get together, but I'm just so grateful you found the time.

We had the time to celebrate what's been, obviously a crazy year.

We got a new year coming up.

But what I love about you, you're always so positive and you're always so grounded, no matter what fucking shit's going on.

And I'm just so grateful that you are my partner and you're my friend and my brother, and I just.

Merry Christmas, man.

I, you know, like, thank you for keeping me around like the.

You know me well enough.

You know me well enough that you should have kicked me to the curb a long time ago.

But, you know, still, you hang in here with me, and I'm so grateful for you, brother.

Nah, man, it goes both ways.

You could have kicked me out a long time as well.

Yeah, man.

I mean, I just, you know, it's.

It's.

It's been.

It's been a crazy year.

A lot of ups and downs and a lot of challenges.

You know, I guess just the way I think about it is.

Everything is temporary.

You know, like, going through shit is tough, but, you know, it's not going to be forever, hopefully.

And when you're doing great and everything's going good, that's also not going to be forever.

So you just got to, you know, ebb and flow and, you know, go with it.

And that's how I kind of run my life and try to, you know, try to make the best out of everything, you know, and so that's why.

That's why you're still around.

Because, you know, I'm like, you've been an asshole, but it's going to.

It's going to be.

It's going to be over soon.

It'll.

He won't be an asshole for a little while.

Until tomorrow.

Yeah, just wait till tomorrow.

So in our relationship, I know it's the same thing, so.

Well, that's.

That's.

Listen, I mean, this is, you know, this is.

This is a.

This is an important point, you know, on some level, because, you know, life is hard, and obviously it's harder for some than others.

Harder for others than some, whatever.

But.

But.

But the shit's going to hit the fan no matter who you are, what you are, where you are, you know.

You know, life's real, and it's going to come at you.

And the truth.

That.

The truth is that you want to have friends, you want to have partners, you want to have, you know, colleagues, you want to have, you know, partner spouses maybe, who aren't going to flinch, right, when this.

When the shit, you know, gets real and life comes at you, you know, with drama and, you know, I found a wife that fucking rock solid when this shit hits the fan.

And I found a business partner who's rock solid when this shit hits the fan.

And that's what I've always loved about you, man.

I mean, you're just one of the coolest motherfuckers.

Not cool in, like.

I mean, yes, you're cool, like in like, the kind of, like, stereotypical way of, like, what, Cool beans?

But, like, you know, because you're an artist and you create culture and you actually help set the trends and all that shit.

But I mean, the point is that, you know, as a business partner, as a friend, when.

When.

When.

When drama happens and the shit hits the fan, you.

You're always calm, cool, collected, and grounded, and I just have always appreciated that about you.

No, thank you.

I appreciate that.

You know, I.

I try to be cool, at least superficially.

You know, sometimes I'm scared.

Shitless underneath.

But, you know, part of the deal is, you know, you can't let them see you sweat.

Right.

Well, but what difference is it going to make, right?

Yeah, what difference is it going to make?

I mean, because here's the thing.

You could freak out, the shit could be bad and you could freak out.

That just might make it worse.

Right.

Right.

Yeah.

And you know, it's.

And not to get like super, super deep, but I mean, the reality is, you know, when you read like, And I haven't read the whole thing, but like when you read like Viktor Frankl's book or whatever, who survived the concentration camps, you know, I mean, it was very, it was, it was, it was very clear that, that so many of the folks that, that did survive that horrific genocide of World War II, you know, like, like there's documented like, stories of like, of people in the camps that got up every day with a purpose.

You know, like they took care of themselves.

They, they, they played, if they were musicians, they played music, maybe, or, or, or, you know, they somehow made themselves valuable, you know, even though they knew that maybe their demise was, was imminent.

And that's the point.

Like, you know, to your point, it's like, yeah, it's like, you know what?

Yeah, shit's going to be good and shit's going to be bad.

So let's just keep it cool and be even keel, because at the end of the day, like, all we can really control is our attitude.

Exactly.

Yeah.

I mean, I forgot who I was listening to some other podcast or something, and someone said they're talking something about, you know, along the lines of what we're talking about here and talking about, like, people who, you know, are very anxious about the future and, you know, suffer.

Suffer from anxiety or are worried about the future for whatever reason.

And the guy said, I wish I could remember the exact quote, but then.

And who it was, I don't remember, but he said something to the effect of like, you're worrying about the future is gonna, is gonna be, you know, is gonna do like zero.

Is gonna change the outcome by zero percent, you know, like.

Right, right.

Like you worrying about it is gonna do absolutely nothing.

Makes no difference.

Makes no difference.

Right, right, right.

So why the hell not just be fucking happy and poss.

Positive about the situation.

Yeah, because that's not going to matter either.

Right.

Like the future is going to be the future no matter what you bring to it.

Yeah.

So, so why try to suffer through all this stuff on your own when at the end of the day you're going to find out that it was pointless suffering because the outcome was going to be whatever it was going to be anyways.

That's right.

So I took that to heart a little bit.

You know, I've been dealing with a lot of issues as of late.

Health issues.

You know, actually some stuff that I think, you know, in the new year I want to talk about as an artist and some stuff that's happening to me right now that I would like to shed some light on in terms of how maybe other artists need to protect themselves or just, you know, just some information about stuff that.

That can happen to you as an artist physically and stuff like that in terms of your health.

Because, you know, we do deal with a lot of toxic chemicals and things like that, and sometimes we take it for granted.

And, you know, I'm dealing with something right now that, like I said, I'll talk about it in the future in more depth when it's the right time.

But.

So hopefully I can help some other artists, but, you know, other family members have been going through some illnesses.

You know, I'm dealing with things with my parents and especially my dad, you know, and going through dementia and all kinds of stuff and.

Right.

You know, not even talking about all the issues with trying to make a living as an artist and all the ups and downs with clients and getting paid and not getting paid and all that kind of stuff that I've always been dealing with.

I think as an artist, you never stop dealing with that.

But how, how.

Here we are at the end of the year and how do we want to end it?

You know, how do we want to, you know, how do we want to end the year and start the new one?

And, you know, I'm choosing to be positive about things and I'm choosing to, you know, to make the best out of things.

And I'm totally, you know, thankful and grateful for everything you've done, you know, personally to help me and my family and obviously all the stu that you do on the day to day with the business and keep it going.

So, yeah, that's stuff that I can never pay you back for.

Just being a friend and being a great guy.

So I appreciate that too.

Hey, man, don't say too much because I have a reputation.

I don't want to ruin it.

But listen, not to get all like, sentimental and shit, but I mean, you know, like, it's crazy to think about how long, how we, you know, how we met in how long ago that was, you know, and.

I know, I know.

And you know, you and I couldn't be more different, right, in terms of our backgrounds and our histories, what have you.

But that's, but that's just, we're just a testament to what America should be, you know, like two people coming together, you know, from different backgrounds and, you know, respecting each other for various reasons and just being, you know, stand up humans and you know, and yes, I mean, some people get along, some people don't get along.

You and I got along from the get go and you know, and we've just always led, I think, with a sense of passion and a sense of joy, a sense of creativity.

Like we just always wanted to do dope, cool shit and you know, and try to like, you know, just do stuff.

We believe it, you know, and, and, and you know, and, and that's it.

And I mean, I think, you know, that's kind of.

Life is one of those things that like we said, like the only thing we can really control, I think is our attitude and our choices.

Right?

Like we make choices.

Yeah.

And you know, I chose to, you know, I read about you, learned I moved to LA from Chicago.

I read about you, I learned about you.

I made a choice to reach out.

You didn't know me, I cold called you, you know, we went out to lunch, whatever, you know, you didn't know me.

You chose to, you know, take a chance on me.

And you know, and obviously, you know, we chose like our wives, like, you know, you married Laura, I married Channing.

Like we made choices, you know, and these choices are so important in life, you know, and I think, you know, a lot of times, you know, people just sort of like don't really think about the choices.

They just sort of like are haphazard or shooting from the hip or whatever.

And sometimes that's great, sometimes that's fine.

But when it comes to really important shit like relationships, family, business, you gotta be careful, man.

You know, and if it doesn't feel right, it's probably not right.

Yeah.

And you know, I was speaking for myself like from the day we met, it always felt right.

And you know, and I, it's like we've been all over the world together.

We've been, you know, from LA to Chicago to fucking Catman 2.

Exactly.

Literally.

And you know, and now here we are, you know, on our little podcast, you know.

Yeah, yeah, man, it's.

Life's a trip, you know, I think like you're to your point, you know, I don't know how long I've known you.

20 years probably.

We Met.

Well, I think it was like, yeah, because I moved to LA at 01 and I think I hit you up and like 03 or 04, because I got married at 05 and I'll never forget you.

I remember we were just getting to know each other and I said to you, yeah, yeah, man, I gotta go.

Like, you know, my wedding's coming up and da, da, da, da, da.

And.

And you go, yeah, you know, after your wedding and you come back bigger and stronger, give me a call.

I said, you know, and.

And I'll never forget that.

It was like.

It was like, yeah, you go get married, you come back bigger and stronger and call me, you know, and we've been talking a little bit, but I.

Basically it will be.

Basically it will be 20 years.

And.

Yeah, just how.

How time flies, right?

Like, it's amazing.

Like, you know, here we are, like in our mid-50s now, and we were like, you know, I mean, I can't believe it.

I.

In my.

In my head, I'm still like 20 years old, you know, in my head.

But then I look in the mirror, I'm like, oh, yeah, no, I'm not 20 no more.

But it's just amazing how when I just think about, like, you know, to your point, choices we made, you know, as.

We made choices individually and also collectively as a business and just the paths we chose to go down and the things we decided not to do, you know, and it's pretty cool.

It's pretty cool that we are where we are and we're still hanging out and enjoying each other's company and still doing what we love, because that's the key.

It's like so many people, as rough as it is to do what we do and be an artist and run a company that's dealing with the arts and we know that world and how difficult it is despite all that.

Dude, it beats fricking clocking in and out to a 9 to 5, you know, and the fact that we can do what we love, you know, not just.

Not just like, it's a cool job.

It's all right, you know.

No, this is like.

This is our passion.

Like.

Like we would do this for free.

Even though sometimes it feels like I'm doing it for free.

We do do it for free sometimes.

Oh, that's right.

No one's paying us for this podcast and here we are.

Yeah, so, yeah, so, you know.

Yeah, it's just like we do it because we love it and it's our passion and, and it's like it's what drives us, and it still drives us, you know?

And like, I, I remember one time this guy asked me, like, well, well, you know, you think you're gonna be painting murals when you're, when you're in your 60s or 70s?

And I said, yeah, yeah, why not?

No.

And I said, I don't.

I'm sure it's not going to be at the same pace that I'm doing it, you know, in my 20s.

But, yeah, I don't, I don't see.

I don't see me getting off the, off the scaffold, you know, so it's just like, you know, when you have this kind of passion for what we do, it seems impossible to not do it, you know?

Yeah.

It's like, it's like there's no way this is going to end.

You know, it's like it'll.

I'll be doing it till I die.

You know, like, people talk about retirement like there's no retirement.

You know, it's like you just, you just.

I'm just an artist, and then someday I just die.

Yeah.

And I was an artist till the last minute, you know.

Right, right.

So, yeah, no, I mean, you know, as a creative person, as an artist, you know, it's.

It's not, it's not really a choice.

It's compulsion.

I mean, you kind of don't have a choice, like, to be creative, and you have to, it's.

You just, it's a.

You just have to do it, otherwise you'd be miserable.

And, you know.

You know, for me, you know, it's like I saw my dad, you know, work, and I'm the first college educated kid in my family.

You know, I'm a working class, blue collar kid from Gary, Indiana, basically.

And, you know, and I saw my dad get up, you know, every morning, early in the cold, whatever, dutifully to go to the steel mill, US Steel, where he was an electrician.

Yeah.

And you know, go to a job he really hated for 30 years, basically out of duty for his family.

And, you know, and I saw that as a young man, and I, and I obviously respected him, you know, for all kinds of reasons, but I also knew that I did not want to do what he had to do.

And.

And yet I also knew I was a creative person.

And so, you know, people say to me that now it's like, oh, man, you know, you're doing such, you know, cool shit and you, you know, you're doing this, you're doing that.

Like, how did you know?

How do you do it?

I'm like, honestly, like, it was, it started when I was a kid.

Like I made a choice, you know, he was like, it was like, no, no, no, I don't want that.

I want this.

Yeah.

And, and I don't, you know, you know, my thing.

And I think this is typical of so many artists.

And by the way, to clarify, like, I think of myself as an artist with a, with a lowercase a, not A, not a capital A, you know, you're an artist with.

I might be an artist.

Like a lowercase a.

But, but, but the, but the point is, is that, you know, I've always just like chased cool shit, you know, and I think that's what artists do.

Like, artists want to like do cool dope shit.

Like, meaningful.

And I'm.

What I mean by cool dope shit, I mean meaningful.

Yeah.

Work, you know, and it's.

And I never thought of myself as an artist really.

Like, I just wanted to do stuff that I believed in and.

Right.

And for the most part, I always have, only because I made that choice.

And you know, sometimes you're flush with cash, sometimes you're not flush with cash.

You know, sometimes it's scary, sometimes it's exciting.

But you know, if you're true to that kind of, that journey.

Yeah.

You know, you look back, I Look, I'm 54, I'll be 55 in May.

Like, you know, I look back on all the, the so called work I've done and it just never felt like work like it just, it was like there's so many projects that in so many things I'm so proud of and grateful for and you know, meeting you and starting where we did with man one Design and you know, and the, in the involvement I had with Crew West Gallery to the extent that I was involved, you know, curating a couple shows and you know, whatever.

And here we are now, you know, with Crew West Studio, trying to help artists tell their stories and promote their work and just doing all kinds of things, you know, like Christmas in la, like the hip hop track that you did all the K for and direct, creator directed the video and I mean just so many things that we have been involved in together over the years and it's just like, man, I mean, if I fucking drop dead today, cool.

Like, you know, like, good day to die.

Like it's been a good life.

Like, you know, like at the end of the day, like, like there's things that, that I'm proud of that, you know.

Did it make a ton of money?

Well, no, not yet.

Maybe it will, maybe it won't.

But that's not the point.

The point was never, and I mean this, the point was never about money.

The point was about doing shit that, that actually fed me, you know, spiritually, you know.

Right, yeah.

You know what that reminds me of?

Like, one of the things about our relationship that, that I think a lot of people wish they had.

And it reminds me of, like, you know, like, for example, we just mentioned the Christmas in la.

If we go back onto how that whole idea started, right?

We were just doing like a frickin.

I think we're doing Designer Con last year and it was during the holidays and wanted to do something special for the booth and we started talking about, oh, would it be cool to paint vinyl?

And then.

Yeah.

Oh, well, why don't we just.

Instead of painting vinyl, why don't we create our own vinyl?

What are you talking about?

Oh, I don't know.

Let's make a song.

Has there ever been a song about Christmas in la?

No.

Well, why don't we do a song?

And what kind of fucking crazy shit is this that we're thinking about?

You know, like, who thinks of these things and then the other one of us signs off on it?

You know, it's just like, it's like, you know, it's crazy talk, right?

It's totally crazy talk.

And so, like, I'll.

I know that, like when I go home, like, we'll have a meeting, me and you, or a conversation or whatever, and we'll talk about ideas about what we're going to do next or whatever.

And then I'll go home and then I'll explain it to my wife because I'm excited and I want to tell her, like, check out this shit we're doing, you know, like.

And she'll look at me like, what the fuck is wrong with you?

Like, that is going to make no money.

How does that help me?

You know?

Like what she gets?

She's like, as a good wife should ask.

Yeah.

She's like, are you.

Hi.

Like, what the hell is wrong with you?

You know, and then.

Or she'll say stuff like, of course, you and Scott, there you go, you and your girlfriend coming up with stuff.

You know, you and your bitch.

Yeah, and it's kind of like a running joke because, you know, I come home all excited after talking to you about a certain project.

And then.

But the crazy part, you know, Obviously, talking craziness is one thing, but then we follow through and do it, which is completely insane.

And, but then you think about it and you get to step back and look at other people's lives and then they, they wish that they could like one day, like, just do one thing that they wanted to do.

Yeah, like, like one thing that, that, that doesn't mean anything to anyone else.

Yeah, but that they wanted to do, you know, and like, for example, you know, going back to like, you know how you're talking about your dad.

Well, same thing with my dad.

He was, you know, working, you know, 12 hour shifts, you know, up at 5:00am and, you know, home in the evening and have dinner and go to sleep and that was it, you know, and he was committed to it.

And you know, I thank him for it all the time, but he never said, like, hey, you know what?

I'm going to, just for shits and giggles, like, why don't I go and do this little thing that I've always wanted to do, you know?

And you know, I think about other people and they just never get to do it, you know, and it's like we're so fortunate that, that, that whatever the outcome of these things, you know, we're just doing them.

And whether it's a big project or a small project, whether it's a lucrative project or makes no money, like, it doesn't matter, you know, at the end of the day, it's like we're just doing shit that we wanted to do and that is so rare in this day and age.

And, and when you look at like, for example, social media, isn't that what everyone's talking about?

Everyone's like on social media telling you how to make more money so that you can go and travel here or, or what side hustle you have to do so that you don't have to work so much or, you know, all these things.

And at the end of the day, it's just like about, you know, you just want to do stuff that makes you happy and, and, and makes you feel like you're living a, a fulfilled life, you know, and that's, that's, to me, that's, that's gold, you know, that's, that's more precious than anything else we've done, you know?

Absolutely, brother.

And I mean, you know, it's, it's so interesting too, because it's also like, it's.

Yeah, I mean, it's, it's, it's beautiful about us and our, our friendship, our relationship.

But, but it's such a, it's such a compelling kind of reality of just being human.

Because, you know, I think we're born as kids, you know, knowing that we're artists and believing we're artists because we're creating, we're drawing, we're playing, we're imagining, we're pretending, you know, and then the system squeezes it out of us, you know, because of course you got to get a real job and you've got to, you know, you got to make a living this and the other.

And then there are a few, you know, the few of us out there that kind of buck, buck the system and push back or whatever.

But what's interesting is like, and I haven't told you this, I wanted to tell you this, I'm trying to get the full study, but I read the other day that Sharpie markers, by the way, shout out Sharpie.

Because of course, you were a Sharpie ambassador for years.

Yeah, right.

But apparently Sharpie did a study recently and they found out in their study that 75% of Americans, it might be 78%, but basically it's called 75%.

75% of Americans now today want to be remembered when they die.

They want to be remembered for their creativity.

Wow.

Above everything else.

Okay, now, you know, like I said, I'm waiting to get the full study and really figure it out.

But I mean, it was like this was published, you know, this was like in a real article that I read somewhere, you know, recently.

And, and man, like that speaks to so much because, you know, people don't want to feel, humans have, you know, they don't want to feel like hamsters, right?

They don't want to feel like widget makers.

They like, they, they are robots or whatever, right?

They, they want to be human.

And so part of, you know, and as humans, like we're part of nature and part of being human and part of being natural is being is, is hugely creative.

And if you stipe, if you stifle that or cut that off, you know, you're gonna, you know, be, I think, unhappy and unhealthy because it's, it's creative expression, right?

And I mean, this is one of the reasons why I get so pissed off at the art world.

Because the so called art world, right, because the so called art world has done a great job of saying, no, no, no, no, you're not an artist or that's not real art.

And this is the only way.

And this is the thing.

And the reality is we just want to express ourselves creatively in some fashion.

You know, you don't have to make a, make a living from art or, or feel pressured to like, you know, achieve a certain, you know, I don't know, you know, high level or whatever, but you can go in your garage and you can build a chair.

Right, right, right.

You can go, you know, and, and, and go to a, a drawing, a workshop and, and sketch a nude, you know, model, you know, you know, just down the street at some art class and, and, and, and fulfill that kind of fundamental need.

I think that, you know.

Yeah.

You know, that's funny that you, that you're talking about this because.

Wow.

Like, this art, the art world, right, is crazy.

You know, I'm glad that we're living in a time where we don't have to live the art world way.

Like, we can make our own way and be our own artist and do what we want to do.

But to your point, you know, it.

People do want to be remembered for their creativity or for something, you know, but it reminds me, it reminds me right now of, you know, the freaking.

The banana duct tape to the wall, you know, the piece called Comedian.

Yeah, right.

So this freaking guy that just bought it for like 6.2 million.

Yeah, right.

Yeah.

Who is that guy?

Who is it, Kim?

I don't care.

I don't know.

He was some.

By the way, I understand he's some criminal, apparently.

Well, crypto criminal or something.

My point is he's some tech guy, whatever, right?

But he has so much money and so much, you know, whatever.

And I don't know who he is and I don't care.

Right?

So he has to buy a freaking banana on a tape, you know, a banana tape to the wall at an auction for $6.2, $6.2 million, and then, and then eat the banana like a couple days later, right?

And then talk about, oh, he's gonna, he's gonna put it on Elon Musk's rocket to Mars or something, right?

So why is he doing all that?

Why is he doing all that?

Because to your point, he, he wants to be remembered for something, right?

And it's just the sad, the sad part of the art world is it takes $6.2 million for someone to get into that world, you know, because they don't have the natural creativity to be known for something that they did on their own, you know.

Right.

Because, you know, of course there's been millionaire art collectors, you know, forever, but most of them buy their shit and then, you know, put it away somewhere and as an investment or whatever, but they're not out there putting their face, you know, in the, in the public's eye and trying to get to, to be known or whatever, because they're doing it for other reasons or whatever.

But you know, this is the, this was this guy's way in.

This is the guy's.

Because if he didn't buy that banana, I wouldn't know who he was.

I still don't know.

Exactly.

Exactly.

And so it's so sad that like, that that's the art where we're living in now.

Where, where now it's not only about the artist, now it's about the piece.

And the piece is ludicrous.

And it's totally, you know, I mean, like, like the epitome of what's wrong with the art world.

Yeah.

Is this whole scenario and then on top of that pylon, the freaking guy who bought it and his whole new celebrity status and it's like it just keeps building and building and building.

And what's underneath it?

What's holding up this whole thing?

It's nothing.

There's nothing holding it, you know, there's nothing, there's no foundation under this, you know, it's just like, it's like this hollow, empty thing full of cash.

It's all about cash and all that stuff.

And it's like, ah, it's such, so terrible to know that that's one aspect of the so called real art world out there.

And so glad that I'm not part of that art world.

It just so cringe.

So cringe.

You sound like my daughter, you know, and, and you know, the, you know, there's so many levels to it too, because, well, I have to admit, I mean, I was really hoping that motherfucker got food poisoning.

You know, like pay 6.2 million to get food poisoning.

That would be amazing, right?

But it, but, but Catalan, I mean, the artist, right, But Mauricio Catalan, I mean, you know, I think he knew right.

On some level this was a commentary, right?

Like, I think it was, it was Warhol, Warhol that said, you know, art is whatever you can get away with.

Right, exactly.

And, and, and, and he, and you know, Catalan, like knew like he was, he was just like, I, as I understand it was a whim, like he was going to, you know, Art Basel Miami at that year was, what was it, 20, 19 or 20 what, 18 or something.

And by the way, Art Basel Miami is going on right now as we speak.

But he just came up with this notion and I Guess bought the banana at a local bodega or something and taped it to the fucking wall.

And it's like, this is the power of artists and art.

It's the Pied Piper effect.

It's like most people are fucking sheep led to the slaughter.

And artists, of course, have the, I don't know, I don't know, the integrity, spine, you know, courage of their conviction, vision, whatever.

Like, they're not sheep.

They're fucking, they're, they're, they're, they're bulls.

They're fucking wolves.

They're, you know, like they're the leaders.

And it was just this like, really powerful commentary of the, of the corruption and the toxicity of this system that we've created that's really, you know, meant to, you know, I don't know, drive capitalism on some level, you know?

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, for sure, the artist was in on the joke and, you know, holding a mirror up to the art world and kind of laughing about it, for sure.

But, you know, to the way the art world took it and the way they ran with it and the way they, you know, even to the point where.

What I find hilarious is that the guy who bought the piece and I forgot, I honestly don't know his name.

So.

Yeah, you might have to look it up.

Let me Google.

Yeah, Google the guy's name.

But yeah, yeah, hold on, I'll google it while you talk.

But this guy, this guy bought the piece, but he didn't really buy the piece.

He bought like the, what do they call it?

The certificate of authenticity of this piece.

Right.

Like he got a roll of tape and he got like a 12 page instruction booklet on how to tape the banana to the wall, right?

And guess what?

Banana not included.

Right.

You know?

Well, listen, I mean, the fucking banana.

I mean, the truth is, as I recall, as I recall that first year, the Catalan did that.

He, you know, somebody bought it and ate it like that first year.

Right.

So like, they're just buying new bananas.

Yeah.

And bringing that.

Like, it's just, it's so ridiculous on so many levels.

Like, it's.

Yeah, it's, it's bad, but, you know, but anyways, you know, I hope, I hope.

I mean, I hope I'm not ever get to that level where I'm that cynical about, about everything.

But.

Yeah, it's just, you know, for us who are making art on a daily basis.

Yeah.

You know, feeding our families through the.

Through.

Through our passion and, you know, it's.

It's a grind, you know, and it's it's real.

It's not like I don't get to sit here and just like, fantasize about, oh, what if I, you know, threw mud at the wall and sold it for $10 million?

Or, you know, like, like, for me, it's real.

It's like what I'm painting is the real emotion that I'm going through.

It's, it's, it's, it's, it's a project.

Whatever the project is that I'm doing, it's because I believe in it and I'm trying to, you know, say something and, you know, that's meaningful or whatever, you know, to me or to my community or whatever.

But at the end of the day, it's how I'm able to make a living and how I'm able to, you know, to feed my family.

And you know, sometimes you see, you see the art world, like so out of touch with just like the everyday aspect of that, you know, it's like, it's this whole like, you know, crazy frickin, you know, masturbation of ideas out there that like, you know, you wonder, like, what the hell are they even talking about?

Like, how could these people even be collecting this stuff or even think this is what art is, you know, when, when it's so real for people like us who, who, you know, who live it and breathe it and like, have to, you know, make choices on a daily basis.

Because this is what we do, you know, so it's just crazy.

Yeah, man.

No, it is.

And it's, it's.

I mean, you think about it.

I don't mean to like, jump around, but it's like, you know, to the extent that being an artist is a calling.

Yeah.

Right.

And to the extent that, for example, other professions.

Right.

Are a calling.

Right.

So like, artist, maybe teacher.

Yeah.

Doctor.

Firefighter.

Right.

Yeah.

Like if you're a firefighter or if you're a doctor, or if you're a teacher or your artist, like you believe in that.

Like you've chose that path because you believe in it.

Like you.

And, and, and yet the world has chosen to make you the way that.

The way that at least in our country, the way the economy works and the system works in America, doctors, teacher, firefighters, artists struggle to make ends meet.

Yeah.

You know, and yet athletes, for example, you know, and by the way, let's be clear, like the athletes that make the millions of dollars, like, they're rare.

Rare.

Like it is so impossible to get there.

Sure.

That.

And they're so prominent that I think Young kids think like, oh, I could do that.

You know.

Right.

We've created a system that fools these kids because nine out of ten of those kids are never going to become LeBron James.

Nope.

Yeah.

But yet being an athlete is a calling, too.

And you're an interesting case.

And one of the things I've always loved about you is that, you know, your genius.

I mean, well, you're a genius, but, like, one of the reasons that you're a genius is that you have so many talents and aptitudes.

Like, you're not just an artist, but you could have played pro soccer.

Right.

And if you're an athlete at that level, like, it's a calling, too.

Like, you born with a genetic physiology that allows you to catch a ball or throw a ball or whatever, run fast or whatever.

Yeah.

And that's kind of a calling because, I mean, if you have some talent, if you're a great athlete in a small town.

I grew up in a small town and, man, I mean, Aaron Jarvis was an incredible quarterback.

Like, you know, like, we thought that, you know, he would be fucking something, but of course he was.

He became nothing, you know?

Yeah, yeah, right.

And it's so.

It's in.

So, you know, we create these.

I know, myths and these fantasies, you know, and so many kids end up being disappointed when it comes to sports.

And with.

But with anything, you can get to become a teacher and be passionate about being a teacher.

But then you become a teacher, you realize, like, oh, wait, you don't get paid much.

You know, like, the kids are fucking crazy.

The parents are crazy, you know, like, you're not, you know, all this.

And I don't know, man.

I mean, you know, it's just like, you have to.

If we can, as humans, we have to find peace and satisfaction in the doing.

Yeah.

Because the money comes and goes, right?

Like, it ebbs and flows and it may never come.

But it may come.

But, you know, oftentimes there are highs and lows.

But, like, that's why, I don't know, like, you and I and so many people out there, I would just say.

And even young people coming up, it's like, ultimately you have to do something you believe in because you have to sleep at night.

And there's always stress.

Like, I don't care.

Like, you know, even if I know there's always stress, so you might as well just do something that you enjoying.

Do you enjoy doing day to day, Right?

Because there's huge, huge compensation in that.

Like, there's.

That's kind of priceless.

You know, I think it's a, is a marriage of like what you want to do and, you know, and what your passion is.

And when it's.

When it's married to like the talent you were given.

And you know, people say it's God given talent.

Other people say it's, you know, you know, something that's, that's natural or whatever that comes to you when you have something that comes to you like that and you decide to go down that route and follow that natural ability and then also love it.

Like you're kind of unstoppable because, you know, you can be a, you can want to be an artist, you know, but like, let's say you're not good at creating art, right?

Then, then what?

You know, do you still pursue it?

It's funny, it reminds me of this one time I was in my studio and these guys from, from Disney were picking up some artwork for my studio.

These labor guys, they're picking up this big piece.

And one of the guys was an ex fireman from New York.

And he comes into my studio and he was all impressed by the wood beams in the studio, whatever.

So he's telling me all this stuff.

I was, you know, and then he said, you know, you're an artist.

He's like, that's amazing because there's only two people on this earth that, that you can't teach.

They're either, either they got it or they don't.

And he said, one is being an artist, the second is being a sprinter.

He said, I don't care how fast.

I don't care how fast you want to go.

If you can't naturally run fast, you.

Ain'T gonna do it right.

And he said, so it's artists and sprinters.

He said, that's it.

Everyone else, like, can learn their shit, but artists and sprinters, they either have it or they don't.

That's amazing.

That's amazing.

So, yeah, so.

So, you know, sometimes people have the talent and then they don't, they don't go with it, you know, I mean, like to your point earlier, you know.

Yeah, I love soccer.

Growing up, I was, you know, I loved it just as much as art.

I still, I mean, I still love it, obviously, but there was a point where there was a fork in the road and I had an opportunity to follow the soccer route and try to become a pro athlete.

Which by the way, when you're in your prime as an athlete, it's like 20, 19, 20, 21 years old.

That's when you're your prime.

So if I would have gone that route, it would have meant that I wouldn't have gone to college, and it would have meant that I would have been playing overseas or in Mexico or somewhere else, because we didn't even have a professional league in the States yet.

This was pre mls.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, right.

MLS didn't even exist.

Yeah, we're Gen X.

Soccer was not a thing in the 70s and 80s.

No.

Here in America.

So as much as I loved soccer, I also knew that, like, hey, if I go that route and I don't make it right, then what, Then, then what do I do?

Or what if I do make it right?

How long can I actually have a career as an athlete?

You know, Like, I'm done at 30, you know, like, you know, especially in soccer.

Like, you know, it's, it's.

It's a young man's sport, even though I was a goalkeeper.

And a lot of goalkeepers tend to.

Tend to play longer because, you know, they're not.

They don't have to be as quick on their feet, so to speak.

But still, you know, I mean, you can't be an athlete for your whole life.

You know, you got.

You got a window.

And, And I remember at the time, I was like, no, you know what?

I love soccer.

I also love art, but I don't see a future in soccer.

I don't see what am I going to be doing with soccer when I'm 70.

I don't see it.

I have no idea.

You know, but with art, I knew that I could do that my whole life, and I knew I could do it no matter what.

Even, like in soccer, I had to be selected.

I still had to try out.

I still had to travel.

I still had to, you know, even.

Even if you're picked on a team, you could still be right in the bench, you know, So I knew as an artist, it was all up to me.

Like, I didn't need no permission.

I just.

I could do it, and I could do as much of it or as little of it as I wanted to, and I couldn't make it a career.

Yeah.

And that's why I chose that route.

Obviously, I don't regret it.

I think I made the right choice.

But, you know, I think sometimes you have to listen.

Listen to yourself and listen to.

To, you know, what's.

What's in your heart and where you want to go with it, you know, So a lot of people may have gone the other direction and decided, no, let's.

Let's try the athlete.

Right.

Let's try for the big money and the, and the, you know, and that lifestyle or whatever.

And yeah, to your point, I mean, there's a lot of kids who want to do that and it doesn't work for most kids, you know, Although if you're, if you're a smart person and if you love sports and you try to go down that route and it doesn't work out, there's so many lessons.

Yeah.

In.

In trying to be an athlete that if you have the right mindset, you will learn a lot from about yourself in that process of trying to become somebody in sports, you know.

Yeah.

The problem is with the people who try to be.

Try to go all the way with it.

They don't make it and then that ends their life, like, literally, like they don't know what to do anymore.

Yeah.

They didn't learn the lessons of trying out.

They didn't learn the lessons of, of winning and losing.

They didn't learn any of those lessons and how they relate to life.

And so, you know, if you're able to learn those lessons and take them in.

I mean, a lot of the stuff I do as a professional artist, believe it or not, comes from my background as an athlete.

I mean, the discipline that it takes to be an athlete, the discipline is.

Carries over.

Like, you know, one of the things.

One of the reasons that I've.

I've, as a.

As a younger artist in my 20s, started making a lot of headway in, in my career as an artist is because I would show up.

It was.

You actually showed up?

It was that simple.

Yeah, I just showed up.

Like, I would tell, someone would ask me like, hey, can you do this?

And I'd be like, yeah, what time should I be there?

And they'd say 5:00, and then I'd be there at 5:00.

Yeah, that was it.

You know, and you see so many people who fail at that.

Yeah.

Because they just think, like, that's not important.

That doesn't matter.

Right.

I'm an artist.

I'll do whatever I want to do.

I'll do it when I want to do it.

I don't feel inspired, blah, blah, blah.

But the discipline it takes to become an athlete carried over into the discipline it takes to become an artist.

You know, I mean, how many hours have I spent alone in the studio just painting, working on designs, getting ready for a show, you know, what have you?

And at any moment, I mean, no one's here telling me to be there.

No One's.

No one's.

You know, it's quite the opposite.

People are calling me and saying, why aren't you out here?

Why aren't you at the party?

How come you're not at home?

Why aren't you with the kids?

Why aren't you?

You know, there's so many other things, but you have to stay focused and be like, no, this is what I want to do, and I got to do it.

And this is what sets you apart from other people.

So.

So I.

You know, I think.

I think a lot of the.

The lessons that I learned in sports have translated because I've chosen to.

To like to see it, you know?

Yeah.

And.

And I'm aware of it.

So.

So I.

I, you know, I'm happy that I had that opportunity, and I'm glad that I made the choice I made.

And, you know, I just.

I just keep going that route, you know?

Yeah, man.

You know, there's, you know, a lot of levels to what you just said, you know, But I.

I want to.

I want to.

I want to point out something that I've always found fascinating because it's not just that you were a great athlete that became a great artist, but that you.

And it wasn't just that you were a great soccer player that became a great artist, but the fact that you played goalie.

Okay.

Like, the eye hand coordination.

Yeah.

That it takes to be an artist and the eye hand coordination that it takes to be a goalie.

Yeah.

Like, to me, like, it's just so connected.

It's so interesting to me because, like, it'd be a fascinating study.

Like, you know, like.

Like, are there other goalies that are other.

That are also, like, you know, closeted artists?

You know what I mean?

Because they have that, you know, I don't know.

But, you know, that's funny because that reminds me when I was in college, you know, I was playing Division 1 soccer at college, and sometimes we were traveling, so I had to leave class early.

Right.

To go travel to the game.

So I was in my design class one time, and one of my greatest professors, Carm Good, who, thanks to him, like, really changed my trajectory into what I wanted to do in the arts.

One day he's like, where you going?

And I said, I gotta go to.

I'm leaving.

I got a game, you know?

And he goes, what do you mean, you got a game?

And I go, I'm on the soccer team.

And he goes, oh, okay.

Well, all right.

Well, try not to get hurt, but.

But thankfully, you're Playing soccer so at least your hands won't get hurt.

I said, well, I'm the go.

I said, well, I'm the goalkeeper.

Yeah, I'm the goalkeeper.

And he goes, what are you doing?

He goes, those hands are gold.

Don't mess up those hands.

That's gold.

I'm like, well, sorry, I'm going to go, you know, play goalkeeper.

So that remind me of that.

But, you know, it just.

It's just funny because I hadn't really for a long time, I didn't.

I didn't bridge the two things together.

You know, I.

It was like soccer was one part of my life, right?

And.

And then I'm an artist now, and so now I'm doing this.

But I remember, you know, rest in peace to Ed Fuentes, who was a journalist and friend who covered a lot of our shows and when we had Cruis Gallery downtown and he had a blog called View from Aloft.

And he interviewed me one time.

It's on my.

It's on my website, actually.

He interviewed me one time and his angle was interesting because on this, on the piece, he related how I was answering his questions and how I was moving physically while I was answering the questions and how he could tell I was a goalkeeper.

Excuse me.

And so he was saying the way I was shuffling my feet, the way my eyes were looking, the way I was shifting back and forth of my body as I answered the questions.

He said it was obvious that I had a talent as a goalkeeper because, you know, I was demonstrating those, those skills during the interview.

And by the way, the way you talk with your hands, I mean, because you do, like, if you cut, If I, if I cut your hands off, you wouldn't be able to talk.

Like you're always.

It's like, you know.

Yeah, yeah.

Such a goalkeeper, kind of.

Yeah.

Goalkeeper 101.

You keep your hand here.

Your hands are always here, you know, so it's like.

Yeah, it's.

It's so funny that he caught that.

And I'll never forget that interview because, like, no one else had caught that.

No one else.

I know.

And it's, it's just interesting people's takes on it.

So.

Yeah.

And, you know, I.

I love sports and, you know, even now it's crazy because I'm not.

I'm not the huge fanatic that I once was about sports, especially about soccer.

I still obviously enjoy it and love it.

But, you know, there was a time when I would record every, every game and, and play it back at midnight when I got home.

And and follow, you know, in the paper or whatever, like what was the stats and everything.

But now that's all.

I don't have time for that shit anymore.

It's like, wow.

It's like I realized like, you know, I got shit to do and I don't have a lot of time left, so I gotta.

I gotta focus more on the art.

Yeah, man.

No, I mean, I.

And you know, the truth of the matter is I've always envied, you know, friends like you who had natural athletic ability.

You know, my dad was a great athlete.

I was a very average athlete, you know, much to his chagrin.

Yeah.

And, you know, there's all this talk these days of like childhood trauma and whatever and you know, I guess if I'm honest with myself and with you, like.

And it's interesting, like, you know, I got, you know, I became a dad.

You.

You were smart.

You became a parent young, earlier in life.

I became a dad later in life.

And it's so interesting, dude, because, you know, like, I.

My daughter when I was 42 and by my son a few years later and you know, and going to sports with my daughter and my son has been fascinating to observe within myself because what I realized, it's so triggering because what I realized, so much of my childhood trauma happened on the field or because, you know, like my dad.

Because my dad was the guy that always showed up at every.

Not just every game, but every practice, you know.

Right.

You know, and.

And, and I just wasn't at his level as like a natural athlete, you know, And I was way, way more of an artist.

Yeah.

Than he then.

Then, you know, but, but he was like a regular guy, you know.

Yeah.

You know, athlete, you know, blue collar, whatever.

So like the fact that I might have been an artist.

I remember my third grade art teacher told my parents, oh, Scott's got a lot of talent.

Like you need to like get him into like art lessons and art.

And then.

Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no.

It's not a real job.

That's just a phase.

It's just not a real job.

Yeah, right.

This was 78, 77, 78, 79 in the Midwest.

So like, to be fair.

But, but, but the fact that, the fact that, you know, I was this average athlete, you know, and you know, and like, it like even going to my kids games now stirs up that shit, you know, and it's.

Dude, I mean, like, honestly, like I've told my wife like several times, like, like, I don't like, like I want to Go to my kids games.

Of course I want to go to my kids games.

Yeah.

But I never expected, like, how much anxiety it would bring up.

Wow.

You know, and it's been a really interesting kind of phenomena to kind of, like, think about and work on or whatever.

But, you know, and then, you know, of course, later in life, you know, I found my voice, so to speak, you know, in other areas.

Yeah.

You know, because, like, you know, there's a lot of graffiti artists are like, they have to be athletic to do what they do.

But that doesn't mean that they were all great at soccer.

No.

Most.

Most graffiti artists are not good at sports.

Right, right, right.

And most artists stereotypically are not great at.

Yeah.

At sports.

Right.

But like.

But for me, like, I.

Later in life, I did a lot of, like, crazy outdoor kind of adventure.

Yeah.

And then eventually I got into, like, endurance sports, and I did, like, two Iron Mans, and I did, like, a marathon, and, you know, several marathons, whatever.

And my dad was in awe, you know, he was like, I could never have done an Ironman, you know.

Yeah.

And.

And I realized, like, I was able to at.

At.

I did my first Ironman at, what, 38, you know.

Right.

And.

And he was so proud, you know, and I felt so great that he was at the finish line after swimming, you know, 2.3 miles and running and biking 112 miles or running a marathon, you know, and he got to see that, you know, but, like, the point is, is that we all have gifts and talents.

We all.

It's all.

You know, growing up is hard.

You know, you find your voice, you find your path, and.

And as creative people, as humans, like, we have these creative journeys we're on, and.

And you just, you know, to your point, you gotta show up, you gotta hang in there, you gotta believe in yourself.

It's just.

It's a journey, and it's scary sometimes.

It's beautiful sometimes.

But I've always been jealous of people like you.

Well, you know, some of the things that are byproducts of, like, for example, playing soccer for me was.

I was very competitive growing up.

Yeah.

I was.

To the point that I recently ran into a friend who I used to play soccer with when I was a freaking 13 years old.

Yeah.

And I haven't seen this guy in years.

Right.

And he tells my wife, oh, my God, your husband is such a freaking bully.

And I was like, what?

And he goes, oh, yeah.

Like, if you messed up around him, like, oh, he would chew you out.

And, you know, he Just like, wow.

I don't see that in you at all.

Yeah.

And I don't see that in myself.

I mean, I know you to be like a competitive guy and that you want the best out of yourself and you want to do great stuff.

I get that part.

But like, the fact that you would ever be a bully, like, you're so not.

I never think of that.

I would never think of that.

I never thought of myself as a bully.

But here's this guy, talent.

And I remember how he played.

Let's face it, he was a pussy.

He was, he was.

He was pretty timid guy.

But, you know, like, you know, I considered him a friend on the team.

I never thought of him as less or whatever.

You know, he wasn't the most talented guy on the team, but we were all a team and there's good people and not good people on the team.

Yeah.

And it was eye opening for me to be like, wow, I came off as a bully to this guy.

But really what it was, it wasn't so much.

And you know, looking back on it, like, it wasn't really so much that I was a bully.

It was more that I was so determined to, like, be the best.

Yeah.

You know, and some people didn't want to be the best.

They just wanted to have fun on Saturday.

Fun.

Yeah, yeah.

Right.

And when you're, when you want to be the best in your area, in that position, me being a goalkeeper, then I start demanding that from the rest of my team, because we're a team.

Right, Right.

It's not an individual sport and you're a leader.

And.

Yeah, and that was my other point, is that I learned how to lead, you know, through all this because by the time I was in high school, I was the captain.

I was the captain of the soccer team every year, you know, and that just because I was one of those players that, like, led by example, like, I wasn't.

I wasn't really the guy that was like yelling at people or, or this or that or acting tough or whatever.

I was just like, nose to the ground and working and don't complain.

Just hustle, do your best.

Push yourself, push others, support each other.

And so I became a leader in high school as a result of this sport that I wanted to play.

And that's how I kept going to the next level and to the next level, you know, all the way to college and then even into, you know, semi pro soccer, I was always a leader.

And so when I stopped playing soccer and, you know, started looking at how I was making a career as an artist.

A lot of my success as an artist is because I had those leadership skills, you know?

Yeah.

And I didn't.

You know, it's.

It's only now looking back on it that I realize that.

Like, at the time, I didn't realize that.

But, like, you know, when.

When I would talk to a client and be able to get the client on my side and be able to figure out a project and be able to, you know, work with others and make that project happen, that was all because I had leadership skills, you know, and a lot of artists do not have leadership skills.

Not only that, they don't want to be leaders.

Like, a lot of artists are very scared to be in the spotlight.

You know, they're afraid to stick their neck out, you know, even though artists are rebels and do whatever it's.

Artists want to do whatever they want whenever they want.

Right.

That's not leadership.

That's not.

And by the way, I hate to say it, you know, I obviously love artists.

Yeah.

But it's kind of super immature.

Yeah, right, Totally.

It is.

But, but, but somehow, you know, this, like, level of immaturity, you know, makes for a good story.

And, and, you know, and by the.

Way, the art world celebrates that, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

They like that.

They like the, oh, this artist is weird and he doesn't think like us and he.

He's on his own little island and blah, blah, blah.

But for me, being an artist was a practical thing because for me it was like, of course I want to be creative and I have a passion around it and I want to do it, but I want to make a career, I want to make money, I want to.

I want to have a family, I want to support my kids.

I want to buy a home.

You know, like, I had things I wanted to do with my.

Well, by the way, can.

Can I just, you know, because I have, you know, you know, Midwesterner, born and raised outside Chicago, and it was in.

I guess it was college, really.

And then, you know, after college, I became friends with a lot of first generation American kids.

Yeah.

Whose parents immigrated here from other countries, whether it be Italy or India or Mexico or whatever.

Yeah.

And Germany, Poland, whatever.

And when I moved to la, I met you, and you're first generation American.

I mean, your parents immigrated here from Mexico and the fact that you became an artist is so fascinating to me because the immigrant story in America is amazing.

I mean, America is a country of immigrants and.

But, but so many of the other kids that I Knew whose parents immigrated here like they could never have imagined being an artist.

They had to be.

They had to have a real job.

They have to be at a doctor, lawyer, accountant, you know, I don't know, cop, firefighter, whatever.

Sure.

You know, and the fact that you were able to become an artist is so fascinating to me because obviously your.

Your parents came here and.

And assimilated, became, you know, became citizens.

Assimilated.

And so did you have.

Did you feel pressure to have a real job, so to speak, you know, and how did you become an artist, you know, when, of course, I'm guessing, you had pressure to get a real job, so to speak.

Yeah, you know, that's a good point.

You know, luckily, you know, I had great parents.

I have great parents.

You have good parents.

You're still with us.

Awesome.

And you know, what they.

What they wanted is they put us in the best schools they could afford.

Yes.

Education is key, so.

Key.

Education was key.

Right, right.

You know, I went to.

I went to private school, Catholic church.

Catholic school, yeah.

My whole life, from first grade even to college, you know.

Yeah.

Now, that has nothing to do with the religious side of it.

It was just because my parents didn't like the public schools in our area.

And they knew that, you know, especially in the 80s and early 80s and stuff, they know there was gangs and stuff like that in schools, and there just wasn't any accountability in public schools.

And my parents were at least wise enough to know that.

So it wasn't about.

They had.

They had no money.

You know, they were struggling, but.

But somehow they were able to put us through.

Through, you know, private school.

And that was the first thing was that they instilled early on to me how important education was.

Yeah, right.

They were like, we just came from a country where, you know, we were not able to.

To get past a certain level of education.

And now we're in a country where we can.

We can send our kids, you know, to somewhere where they can get the highest level of education.

Right.

Because my parents, they went as far as high school.

I don't even know if they graduated from high school in Mexico.

You know, I know my dad did, and he got kicked out.

He has.

He has all these great stories about him getting kicked out of school, which is crazy.

Right.

I met your dad.

I think I could guess why.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And so.

And, but still, it's like you would think someone who got kicked out of school who, you know, whatever, would not, you know, want care about his kids going to school, but he Was the opposite.

He was like, no, I want better.

I want better for my kids.

Yeah.

Than what we had.

And that's.

I think that's part of the immigrant story, right?

Is that.

That's why they're here.

They're here to.

Immigrants come to this country because they want better for their kids.

They want better for their families.

Yes.

They don't want to suck the.

Suck the system dry or.

Or take it easy or not work, you know, they want to.

They want, like, this is the land of dreams, you know?

Yes, yes.

And they had a dream not for themselves, really.

It was more self.

Selfless.

It was for us.

It was like their dream was that we become somebody, you know, so they sacrificed a lot.

So that was the first part was the education.

The second part was they just wanted us to be successful and happy.

Yeah, whatever that meant.

They never said, you need to be a lawyer, a doctor, whatever.

They just said, like, go to school as far as you can, get a degree and just be happy with whatever you do.

So they never, you know, told me what I had to do.

Another part of it was my mom's side.

My uncles on my mom's side were all musicians.

Like, I think six of the brothers of her brothers were all musicians.

And they had a band, very popular band in the 70s, and they played in Mexico and they played in the States, and they even made some real money for some time.

So there was a sense of like, you know, that was a real job.

You know, my uncles got married and had kids because they were performing around the world, you know, playing music.

And so that part of it wasn't odd to them.

It was kind of like, yeah, they're making money as artists right now.

I didn't have any family members who were painters or, you know, that type of artist.

Right.

It was all musical artists.

But, you know, I think there was an openness, right, to.

To that kind of lifestyle and that kind of, like, with what it takes to be at that level, you know, as a musician and as an artist.

So that was the other part of it.

And then the part that's kind of weird, that was the one thing they did not want me to do that I was clear that they did not want me to do is join a gang.

Like, that was one thing that would bring shame to the family, right?

Yeah.

Like, if I got into drugs and if I got into gangs, then I would pretty much be disowned like that.

That was clear from day one.

And I didn't want to be, you know, that I Want to do that.

And so I didn't want to do that, you know, and I, I got it loud and clear that that was not the path.

Like, we put you in the school to do whatever you want, but just don't do that, you know, just don't be in a gang and don't get caught up and don't get into drugs and all that stuff.

And then what did I decide to do?

I decided to be a graffiti artist, right?

Which is a different kind of gang.

A different kind of gang.

And by the way, the aerosol gets you hot.

Yeah.

Yeah, Right.

And so, and so it was very interesting because when I decided to become a graffiti artist at that time, kids my age were being given this, this choice in a lot of.

In, in a lot of neighborhoods.

It was like, you can be a graffiti artist or you can get into a gang.

You know, most kids were not in both.

And most kids chose one over the other if given the choice, you know, And I was like, okay, I'm not going to be in a gang because that's going to destroy my parents, you know, whatever, and I don't want to do that.

So.

And, and I, and I want to be an artist, so this is perfect for me.

So I went down that road.

So for the first, when my parents first found out I was doing graffiti, they were like so demoralized because they thought I was in a gang, right?

Of course.

They were like, oh, shit, crew.

Yeah, it's different.

Like it's, you know, the difference between a crew and a gang.

Come on.

But look, but look at what you're painting.

You must be on drugs.

No, no, I'm not on drugs.

Yes, I'm not, I'm not on drugs, but I'm running across the middle of the freeway to tag my name.

So there's that.

So it was interesting because I had to really, like.

And this is, you know, I got to graffiti when I was like 16 or whatever.

So I had to really at that point, like, figure it out because I didn't want to disappoint them.

I was a very good student, I was a very good athlete, and I had a lot of talent in art.

So I had a lot of good shit going for me and I didn't want to throw it away and I didn't think I was, but I needed to convince them, like, hey, I'm not, I'm not doing fucked up shit, you know, like, okay, graffiti, maybe it's not legal, but my goal is not to be doing graffiti on the streets.

You know, you know, on people's property for the rest of my life.

You know, like, I want to transition into doing murals, and I want to transition into, you know, doing on canvas.

And, you know, so it took a long time for that.

Matter of fact, it took so long that it wasn't until I got to college and I finally got my degree in fine art that my parents finally were like, okay, you're a professional.

You have a degree, a piece of paper, then that's good.

Then we support.

We support you 100%.

And from that point on, they've always supported me.

So it was.

It was.

You know, but I could have easily, like, you know, been F you.

I'm gonna do whatever I want and blah, blah, blah, you know, but, you know, being the oldest of three, being the first college educated, you know, a member of the family, I took all that stuff serious.

You know, I took it like I needed to be an example.

I needed to, like, you know, do, you know, for my family the best that I could.

And, you know, that's why I chose that route.

And, you know, I mean, I think I chose wisely.

And I think, you know, my parents are proud of me now, so I did something right, you know?

But it's so crazy because I could have very easily gone down a negative route.

I mean, I had tons of friends who were, you know, doing drugs, alcoholics, you know, I was in multiple cars when people got DUIs, right?

But all that taught me was like, I don't want to do that.

I don't want to go to jail because I was driving drunk.

You know, I don't want to, like, end up in the hospital because I overdosed, you know, Right.

Like, I didn't think those guys were cool.

Like, I knew them, and we hung out sometimes, and I didn't, like, when they were like that.

So I was like, I don't want to do that shit.

So it's kind of a.

It's kind of a weird thing.

What.

What's.

What's.

What's totally weird for me now is all these years later, right?

All these years later, right now, one of the biggest, I guess, segments in especially language art is the whole gangster lifestyle and how, like, you know, gang tagging right now has been elevated to such an art form, how gang life has been, you know, elevated to a level where photographers who shoot that life are so highly acclaimed.

And to see how all these people who, you know, are in a subculture where they could have ended up dead or they did end up in jail, or they did end up doing bad shit, but now they're being celebrated for that world that I was trying to be so far away from.

Yeah.

And now, like, seeing it as like such a mainstream part of art culture, it's pretty crazy, you know, it's like, wow, that's awesome.

You know, because, you know, as an artist, you see things differently and you're able to, you know, like when I, when I had a lot of friends who were in gangs and I liked the way they tagged certain things, I liked the way they use certain fonts.

Right.

I didn't like they were selling drugs.

I didn't like they were carrying guns.

Yeah, there's a lot of shit I didn't like, but there was shit that I did like.

Right.

But I was like, but no one's ever going to like that, you know, no one's ever going to put that in a museum, you know, and sure enough, here we are, you know, and it's, it's so crazy to me.

I mean, it's, it's, it's an amazing thing that, you know, I mean, people said that about graffiti too.

Right?

Like, there's people who said graffiti is never going to be in museums and in galleries and here we are.

So it's an interesting, it's an interesting life that we live, man.

It's crazy.

Well, and yeah, I mean, yes, yes and yes and yes.

And, you know, just, you know, I don't know, speaking from my own experience, I guess, being grown, growing up in the Chicagoland area, we heard a lot about the mafia, you know, and there's this because the fucking mafia was real, like fucking real.

And gangs were around too, but I don't really remember.

I mean, and of course I remember hearing about gangs.

I didn't grow up worried about gangs in my high school, for example.

Right.

But the, but you, but you did hear in Chicago is famous obviously for the mafia.

But.

Yeah, but I think as a, you know, you know, lower middle class, or maybe middle class white kid growing up in the Midwest, the idea of gangs and, or the mafia, there was just this, I don't know, this, this belief that it was just about exploitation.

Right.

Like.

Right.

You know, it was about just like thuggery and, you know, assholes being assholes.

Right.

Or whatever.

Right, right.

And, you know, I guess it wasn't from speaking again, speaking from my own journey.

It wasn't until later in life, maybe certainly college, post college, that I realized that basically the mafia and gangs were a survival system.

Right.

Because these people, you know, The Italians came and they were hated.

So they had to band together, right, and survive.

And gangs, on a certain level, as I understand it, are about the same thing, right?

It's like, no, no, no, no.

Nobody's looking out for us, right?

We're on our own.

And so there is this historically, anyway, again, speaking of, like, is like a white guy out of the Midwest, like, there's just this ignorance and misunderstanding of, like, what these systems are about, you know, and, and, and I think now to your point, maybe, just maybe there's some elevated awareness or consciousness or intelligence or understanding about, like, what these systems are so that maybe the art world can look at this art form as, As a culture, as a, As a language, as, As a, As a belief system or as a cultural institution or whatever that that was, that was trying to do something meaningful or important.

But maybe they didn't.

You wouldn't.

You, you know, maybe you don't agree with the tactics.

And, and of course, you know, like, there's, you know, anytime there's violence involved or whatever, you know, against, you know, human.

Against human violence, like, that's, that's an issue.

And I'm not talking about laws or legal.

I'm just talking about human to human violence.

But I don't know, but I think that, you know, it feels like maybe there's a better understanding these days of, like, what these systems are about and the fact that they have their own languages, they have their own culture, and obviously they have their own art forms.

Right.

And, you know, did you ever.

I mean, because, I mean, I never got.

I went to all white fucking high school, you know, like.

But I don't, I don't.

Like, I never got cornered.

I never got all white high school too.

Well, yeah, private Catholic school.

You would, you went to a better fucking white school than I did.

Yeah, but anyway.

No, but the point is that I never remember getting cornered.

Like, I never got cornered about, like, oh, you know, you're gonna be, you're gonna join us or you're gonna get your ass kicked, you know, or whatever.

Like, did you ever get confronted, you know, like, like, what are you gonna do?

You gonna fucking, you know, be with us or be against us, you know?

No, no.

And that's, that's really because of the schools I went to.

Yeah, like a hundred percent.

If I would have gone to a public school, I would have had to make that choice.

Yeah, I would have got cornered 100%.

I'm, I'm confident that because all my friends, that's what happened.

To them, you know.

Yeah.

And you know, the other part of it, too, is like being smart in high school.

Back then, that was not like a cool thing.

That was liability.

Yeah, right.

Yeah, it was like.

I remember they used to call me like, hey, there goes a school boy.

Hey, there's a school boy.

There goes Mr.

Honor Student.

Yeah, yeah, right.

I'm talking about my friends at public schools, right?

When I hang out with them, they're like, oh, here comes public.

Here comes a private school boy.

Yeah.

Here comes Mr.

Schoolboy.

Here comes Mr.

You know.

Yeah.

And because all these guys, they were trying to be tough, you know, and smart is not being tough.

Right.

You know, as a matter of fact, one of my first graffiti crews that I made up was psa.

Private School Artists.

And it was.

It was me.

It was me.

It was me and two kids from my high school.

Yeah, we just made it up.

We're like, hey, we're we're both.

We're all three of us.

Yeah.

PSA.

We're PSA.

PSA1.

And remember, remember PSA?

Remember the airlines?

PSA.

Yeah, right.

So we had.

We had our catch line.

We had a fucking catchphrase, too.

It was psa, Catch our style.

So I was.

I was even into branding back then before I even.

Of course, of course.

Because, you know, no one knows this right now, listening to this podcast was back then there was an airline called psa and their catchphrase was Catch our smile.

And so ours, ours was catch our style.

And so, yeah, we were stupid like that.

But, you know, I think, you know, when you mentioned earlier about these systems, it's interesting because, you know, in college I remember taking, you know, art history classes and they talked about the surrealists, and they talked about the futurists, and they talked about, you know, all these different movements in history.

Art history, right.

I was like, why don't we have that anymore?

How come we don't have movements anymore?

Right?

We do have movements.

That's why we're talking about that.

Like graffiti art is a movement, you know, Gang.

Gang life.

Gang culture is a movement.

Yeah.

You know, because what I learned in college was that movements within the movements, there's always visual art, music, film, photography, dance, you know, all those things exist within those movements, you know, and if you look at graffiti, all those exist in graffiti.

If you look at gang culture, all those, you know, so these are our modern day movements and they haven't happened to be worldwide and they happen to be huge now.

Yeah.

But they're recognized finally.

I haven't heard no one use that terminology really.

But in my head that's what it is.

It's, it's a movement, you know.

Yeah.

So, so I, you know, I agree with that.

It's like people nowadays are finally realizing like, oh wow, there's more to this and like you said, than just thuggery.

You know, this isn't just people trying to sell drugs.

This isn't just people trying to vandalize property.

Like there's something deeper, there's something, you know, there's a nuance to it that, that, that needs to be, you know, explored and yeah, that's, that's what part of being in this movement is about, you know, so it's pretty cool.

Yeah, man.

No, it, it, it, it is.

Yeah.

Yeah, I remember, I mean I graduated with 680 kids in my class.

Right.

Like it was the third largest high school in the state of Indiana.

Right.

And of course most of those kids were white.

Most of those kids were Catholic.

Well, no, I, most of them were Protestant, of course.

Then there was like a huge Catholic segment and then there were, we, I had, you know, there were many sort of.

Well, not many.

I mean, when I say many, I don't really, you know, but like Puerto Ricans, Mexicans.

We had a good felt like, you know, I don't know, many, whatever that means.

But you know, three black kids, right?

Out of 680.

Yeah.

And maybe one Jewish kid.

Right.

And when I went to college and I was supposed to go to Indiana University Bloomington, which would have just been all white, you know, but I ended up getting a killer job opportunity coming right out of high school and I decided last minute to go to the northwest campus of Indiana University, which was Gary, Indiana.

The campus was in Gary.

And, and so when I started college, that was really when, you know, I started going to school with, with kids of color, you know, black Mexicans, whatever, but a lot of black kids.

Yeah.

But my so called older brother, and I say so called older brother because like our parents were best of friends and you know, we, you know, I met, you know, like when I was six, you know, he was 11 and we started hanging out.

So he was like my older brother, but he was, he was a musical prodigy and he would play piano.

He started playing piano in Chicago when he was like 16, 17, 18.