From Silicon Valley to Pentagon: The Intersection of VC and Dual-Use Tech | The Pair Program Ep32

In this episode, we hear from startup founder and venture capital partner: Topher Haddad and Michael Brown. They delve into a key area of innovation in the defense space: dual-use startups. These startups straddle between the commercial space and the federal sector. And they’re making waves in the federal defense sector.

Get an inside look into the inner workings of VC–founder relations, including how they work together and what they’re looking for in the partnership.

About the guests:

Topher Haddad is the co-founder and CEO of Albedo, building a new platform for Earth Observation in very low earth orbit (VLEO). Albedo’s satellites will co-collect optical and thermal infrared imagery at the highest resolution commercially available, serving markets in agriculture, utilities, mapping, insurance, and defense. Topher previously worked as an engineer at Lockheed Martin on national security satellites.

Michael Brown is a partner at Shield Capital (a venture fund focused on defense technology—AI, cyber, space and autonomy) as well as a visiting scholar at the Hoover Institution at Stanford University. Michael is the former Director of the Defense Innovation Unit for the U.S. Department of Defense where he worked for 7 years. Prior to that he was the CEO of Symantec, at the time the cybersecurity industry leader and before that CEO of Quantum, a computer storage maker.

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Welcome to The Pair Program from Hatchpad, the podcast that gives you

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a front row seat to candid conversations

with tech leaders from the startup world.

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I'm your host, Tim Winkler,

the creator of Hatchpad.

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And I'm your

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Mike Gruen: other host, Mike

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Tim Winkler: Ruin.

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Join us each episode as we bring

together two guests to dissect topics

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at the intersection of technology,

startups, and career growth.

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Back

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to another episode of the Pear

Program, I'm your host, Tim.

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Tim Winkler joined by

my co host, Mike Gruen.

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Mike, a quick question of the day for you.

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Um, you play board games.

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I do.

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Okay.

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Uh, so we had a little debate here

at hatch around, uh, around board

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games, you know, in, in your opinion,

what is the greatest of all time?

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Board games, the goat goat board game,

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Mike Gruen: the greatest of all time.

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I mean, I do like settlers of Catan.

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I like the German style, like Maxman

type, uh, problems where the tactical

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and the strategic, um, so settlers

definitely comes top to the list.

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Um, trying to think if there's anything

else, but that's, that's pretty, it's

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Topher Haddad: pretty tough to beat.

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Yeah,

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Tim Winkler: Catan was

actually one of the top ones.

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And then we had, um, Risk, Risk is

my favorite, my personal favorite.

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Um, but Clue is an easier

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Mike Gruen: game.

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That's based mostly on Locke.

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Tim Winkler: Okay.

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You're clearly not making the right paths.

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It's, uh, but Clue is actually the

number one, which I was surprised.

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I didn't know if I thought Monopoly

was going to be up there, but either

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way, um, you know, talking, uh,

talking a little board game talk,

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um, Well, let's, let's jump in, uh,

give, give the, uh, listeners a little

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bit of a preview of today's episode.

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So today we're going to be talking

about the intersection of venture

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capital and dual use tech startups, uh,

for clarity, for, for our listeners,

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you know, a dual use venture is a

technology startup that has both

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government and commercial customers.

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Uh, we've got two excellent

guests with us to break this down.

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Uh, we have Mike Brown, uh, a partner at

a venture capital firm in the Bay area

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called shield capital, uh, and Topher

Haddad, uh, the co founder and CEO of,

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um, Is it out Albedo Albedo Albedo got it.

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Right.

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Cool.

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All right.

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Um, Albedo, uh, they are a, uh,

satellite imagery startup headquartered,

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um, I believe in Denver, Colorado.

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You can correct me if I'm wrong on that.

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Uh, and to set the stage for this

episode, you know, shield capital

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was one of the Albedo series a round.

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Uh, so it is not by accident that we

have brought these two folks together.

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It was a strategic

pairing of these guests.

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Uh, so I'm confident this will add to

a really fascinating discussion today.

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Uh, guys, thank you both for

joining us on the pair program.

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Glad to be here.

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Yeah, excited to be here.

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Cool.

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All right.

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So before we dive in to the

discussion, we do kick things off

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the fun segment called pair me up.

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Here's where we're going to go

around the a complimentary pairing.

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Mike.

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Bruin, uh, you always start us off.

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What do you got for us?

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So today's

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Mike Gruen: is a long meetings

and many scheduled short breaks.

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Um, the key part of that is not the long

meeting, but the scheduled short breaks.

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Uh, we had an all day

planning session, uh, today.

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So it was sort of top of mind.

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Uh, it was several hours long, but I

definitely appreciated the chief product

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officer scheduling many short breaks.

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Um, that.

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Broke up.

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The, the thing nicely, um, gave us

a, gave everybody an opportunity

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to sort of catch up on all the

stuff that they were missing.

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And I think it sort of made the whole,

the whole day go a little bit faster

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because everybody was paying attention.

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'cause they didn't have to, they

didn't feel that need to like,

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oh, I have to go check Slack, or

I have to check email right now.

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Like, they knew that like, in

20 minutes they're gonna have

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an opportunity to do that.

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Stuff like that.

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So.

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That's my parent, it

worked out pretty well.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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You

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Tim Winkler: love your meetings.

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Topher Haddad: I hate my meetings,

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Mike Gruen: but meeting is the

opposite of doing, uh, yeah.

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Tim Winkler: Yeah.

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Mike, Mike's an engineering leadership.

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So he's got one on ones out the kazoo.

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So I'm sure it's a relatable thing

for, for many of our listeners as well.

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Mike Gruen: I mean, to be clear,

I do like the one on ones.

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I enjoy that part of the job.

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It's the big, long, big session meetings.

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As I said, meeting is

the opposite of doing for

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Tim Winkler: sure.

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So I agree.

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Yeah.

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Cool.

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All right.

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Um, I'll jump in, uh, so without getting

too deep here, uh, my, my pairing

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is, uh, turning 40 and reflecting.

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Uh, so I recently celebrated

my, my 40th birthday.

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It was a fun gathering had, had,

you know, friends and family from,

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you know, years and years ago.

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Uh, I gave a toast, uh, at the

party and prep for the toast was.

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It is doing a bit of

reflecting on my life.

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Um, you know, a lot of folks say like

the 40th is that mid point of life.

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Uh, it's a good opportunity to reflect

on where you, where you are, uh,

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where you thought you, you would be.

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Uh, and for me, you know, just a good

time to just reassess some life priorities

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and goals and, um, overall purpose.

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Uh, so, you know, got, got a little

bit deep, uh, but, uh, you know, for

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me recently becoming a first time

parent, um, you know, the purpose was.

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Quite clear or clearer for

me, uh, I'll leave it at that.

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So, uh, it was a healthy exercise,

uh, but that's, that's my parents.

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So turning, turning 40 and, and,

uh, reflecting, um, so I'll pass it

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along to our guest, uh, Topher, uh,

why don't you give us a quick intro

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and, and, uh, tell us your parent.

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Topher Haddad: Yeah.

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Awesome.

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Uh, excited to be here.

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So, uh, Topher, dad, co founder and CEO

at Albedo, we are building satellites

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that fly very low and take very high

resolution pictures of the earth.

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So we'll get, we'll get into that more.

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But, um, after thinking long and

hard about my pairing, I think one of

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the best ones is Topo Chico with my

nine to five or whatever the actual

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hours are, but I sit and work all day

drinking Topo Chico, which is, uh,

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it turns out to be pretty expensive.

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Yeah.

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Work habit, but, uh, it helps

me, uh, yeah, focus, so that's

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Tim Winkler: solid.

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Are you a ranch water fan by chance?

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Topher Haddad: Yeah, definitely.

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Yeah.

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And the ranch water, uh, I make some

LaCroix too, but I'd say Key Lime

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LaCroix and a regular Topo Chico, maybe

the occasional lime are my go tos all

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Tim Winkler: day.

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That's solid.

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My neighbor just opened up a, uh,

Mexican, uh, street taco restaurant.

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Oh, yeah.

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One of the, one of the key like drinks

that they've got like the Coke and

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like the old school glass bottle, but

then they also have Topo Chico and it's

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always a, it's always a good option.

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You just don't see it very often, not, not

around here anyways, not, not East coast.

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I

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Topher Haddad: think it's spreading.

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I remember when I was living in

the Bay area and it first started,

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they started selling it there.

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Um, it was a big deal, but

in Texas, it's everywhere.

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I mean, it's, yeah, it is the

water or the wine, honey of Texas.

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So sweet.

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Tim Winkler: All right.

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Well, we'll have to evaluate if it's, if

it's going to be the top of our pairing

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charts, we'll, we'll have to get back

to you on that, but, but I do dig it.

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I like that.

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I like that.

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Um, awesome.

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Mike, how about yourself a

quick intro and your pairing?

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Michael Brown: Okay.

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Uh, Michael Brown, uh, partner shield

capital, uh, just leaving an assignment

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as the director of the defense innovation

unit at the department of defense, whose

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mission was really to bring commercial

technology into the military and now being

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at shield, I'm really doing similar thing,

but now from the private sector side,

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how do we work with, you know, phenomenal

entrepreneurs like Topher and help them

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get their companies to be successful.

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And selling into government

and commercial applications.

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Well, Tim, for a pairing, I think

I'm inspired by what you talked

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about in terms of reflection.

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So the other end of the spectrum

in terms of age of this group, uh,

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and as a new grandparent, the, my

favorite pairing is, uh, being with

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grandkids and lack of discipline.

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So the beautiful thing about

moving on from being a parent is

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once you get to the grandkids.

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No discipline involved.

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It's just having fun with them and

handing them back to the parent.

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Tim Winkler: Injecting them

with lots of sugar and then

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handing them back to the parent.

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That's great.

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That's great.

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How many grandkids do you have?

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Uh, two.

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Oh, very nice.

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Good stuff.

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I like that.

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Um, well let's, um, let's go ahead

and transition, uh, into the,

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the heart of our discussion, so.

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As I mentioned, you know, we're going

to be talking about dual use tech today.

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Um, you know, this plays off some

recent episodes that we've been

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running centered around, you know,

commercial innovation and the

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defense and national security sector.

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Uh, you know, Michael, you, you, you,

your experience at the defense innovation

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unit means super relevant, super spot on.

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So I'm really pumped that we got you.

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Uh, and I'd love to, you know, to

expand on this concept of dual use

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technology, um, defining it in more

detail, understanding some of the

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different use cases where we're

seeing this popping up across both

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commercial and government sectors.

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Um, you know, we'll hear more on

how VCs maybe evaluate and assess.

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Dual use companies, um, and, and expand

a little bit on like what, what those

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regulations or what those challenges

might come into play when positioning

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that tech and into these regulated

industries like the Department of Defense.

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Uh, but first off, I'd

love to begin with Mike.

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You know, give us a little context

on maybe the investment thesis at

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shield and also I, I share with

our listeners how the partnership

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between SHIELD and um, albedo began.

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Okay.

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Michael Brown: Yeah.

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Uh, you know, shield is really a

first time venture fund focused on

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early stage companies, which means

seed stage series a, uh, so, uh, uh,

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Albedo fits right in the center of it.

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And we're working on 4 different

sectors, AI, cyber autonomy and space.

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And if you think about those sectors.

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They're all ones that the military needs,

but is not leading the development on.

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So the big change, uh, in defense

tech, if you go back 50 years, would

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be the department was inventing a

lot of the technology it needed.

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So it was working with NASA to send

rockets that, uh, basically it designed

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with some defense primes up into space.

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Uh, it was developing chips.

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Uh, all things that, uh, today the

department needs, but is not on the front

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end of developing what the department's

on the front end developing day would

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be hypersonics and what's called

directed energy or concentrated lasers.

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So, a lot of the technology that's needed

is developed in the commercial world.

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By companies like Albedo and others.

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So the challenge is, how does the

department get access to that?

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So the good news is now we can leverage

private investment venture capital to

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develop these companies rather than

having to be purely taxpayer funded.

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You know, if you go back to the 60s,

a big part of the federal budget was.

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Uh, developing the rockets and

the, and the space program.

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Now that can be done with outside capital.

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So big benefit and we get competition.

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We get more companies that are

participating here, which gives the

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taxpayers a bit of a break through

that competition and you get leading

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edge capability, or not dependent

on kind of one source to get that.

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So our thesis is that we'll be able

to both invest in those companies.

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And make money for our investors, because

not only do they serve the government, but

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they also have commercial applications.

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So that's the thesis.

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It's a pretty new one.

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It's a defense tech is a rapidly growing

area, part of the venture market.

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But we haven't had enough time

go by to see, okay, how do

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these investments play out?

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We've had some pretty

good examples of big wins.

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Companies like Andrew, um, companies

like shield AI are doing well, but

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we haven't seen this through a whole

sort of crop of, of investments.

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And I'll let Topher talk about how.

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Uh, the partnership with the

shield got connected with Albedo.

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Topher Haddad: Yeah, for sure.

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Actually, it was funny.

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The relationship started with shield

as I was a customer reference for

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a different company that shield was

evaluating and it turned in and I was

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actually fundraising at the time, so

it turned into an investment, but,

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but yeah, that, um, that was a little

over a year ago when we closed our

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series a and very much, I think Albedo.

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Reflects kind of the core dual use

definition of really serving both

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commercial and defense and intelligence.

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And so.

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Historically, and, like, the heritage

of a lot of our technology come from.

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The government owned and operated

satellites that have been around

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for a long time and done a

ton for our national security.

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And so what we're really

bringing from, uh.

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From a commercial perspective, is

this capability in this product that

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today you kind of need drones or

planes for, uh, to capture this level

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of resolution and give our customers

the certainty that comes with that.

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But now we can do it at a global

scale with all the benefits

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you get from a satellite.

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And so that's really.

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Important for industries like insurance,

utilities, mapping, agriculture, those

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different sectors on top of adding

to the existing capability of the U.

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S.

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government in terms of high

resolution, remote sensing in

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both the visible and the infrared.

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And so that really, um, that plus kind

of the core technology we're building

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in this new part of space called Leo.

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Is what I think really attracted

shield to Albedo and us working

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with them and the attraction was.

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Those connections, the network, the

knowhow of working with the defense,

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uh, department and the intelligence

community in terms of how to do, how

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to do business development, where

to spend time and how to think about

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that strategically and long term.

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Um, so, so yeah, it's been, we've

been working with SHIELD for about a

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year and it's been, been phenomenal.

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Uh, it's a huge tailwind to have,

have, you know, a team that knows the

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defense world, um, like SHIELD does.

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When you were,

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Tim Winkler: um, you know, looking

for, for investment, were you looking

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specifically for firms that, that

had some expertise in dual use tech?

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Yes, I would

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Topher Haddad: say, um, and, and,

and breakthrough energy ventures

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co led that round was shield.

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They were more of a climate tech oriented

fund, and that was really like very well

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aligned with our go to market and our

goals for, uh, the market opportunity

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was, was defensive and commercial with

a lot of climate and applications.

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And so.

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We had, we didn't have as many,

um, investors very actively

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involved before the series a.

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And so when we, when I was talking to

different, different firms, knowing

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that there were certain firms out

there with specific theses and focuses

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like shield and on the defense side.

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Was definitely something that was very

attractive and something that we wanted,

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you know, from, from, uh, prioritization

perspective was not just the capital,

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but, but a fund that could really

bring value in other ways beyond that.

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So, yeah, definitely was, was of interest.

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Tim Winkler: Interesting.

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And, and so, uh, some context

on your background, Topher.

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So, um, you know, where, where were

you before you started Albedo, uh,

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talk to us a little bit about, uh,

your background, where you came from.

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Topher Haddad: Certainly.

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So I worked for Lockheed Martin

in the Bay Area for about 5

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years before starting Albedo.

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I worked on classified remote

sensing satellites for the U.

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S.

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government, and I did a mix of system

architecture work with more of a

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specialty in optics and imaging science.

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And so both and, you know, I really,

I thought space was cool as a kid,

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but wasn't necessarily the person

that grew up set on working in space.

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But I feel super lucky that that was

the 1st job I got because I just fell in

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love with the entire space industry and.

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Satellite imaging specifically,

both the engineering side and then

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also the applications getting to

see what it's done for our country.

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So that's what I did for about five years.

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I learned a ton, worked with amazing

people, worked on amazing missions.

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Um, and yeah, I got exposed to

kind of this defense tech and

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the application side of things.

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Tim Winkler: Neat.

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Um, I, I am curious on like, um, you know,

so that, that obviously played a part

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in, you know, having some connections

to, to folks in the defense space, uh,

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when you first started, uh, Albedo, did

you know it was going to be a dual use

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tech kind of, um, you know, technology

company, or was that something that

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evolved as you were going through some

different use cases, um, and, and what

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kind of came first, the, you know, more

of like a commercial use case or, or.

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Topher Haddad: Defense.

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Yeah.

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So I didn't really know.

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So the idea for Albedo, which we won't

get into this story because it's kind of

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long, but it actually came from when Trump

tweeted a classified satellite image.

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And I didn't know much about the

commercial market for imagery, but it's

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this tweet sparked this conversation

in the commercial industry around

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how game changing it would be to

get this resolution in the hands of

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those different commercial markets.

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I'd mentioned.

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And so the, the.

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I guess, like, the early days of this,

we kind of viewed Albedo as, yeah,

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there's obviously a big opportunity

with the Department of Defense

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with the intelligence community.

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We know there's a lot of supply

limitations today around how much

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high res imagery they can collect.

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And so that's kind of the bare minimum

opportunity of, you know, this, this,

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this big market opportunity with the

defense and intelligence community.

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But the commercial was kind of that.

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That was where this kind of venture

scale potential outcome came in.

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If we could unlock all these applications

or expand all these applications in

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these commercial markets by bringing

high resolution, making it easier to

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buy and kind of these different kind

of key ingredients that we think are

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needed to catalyze the commercial market.

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Um, so I think, yeah, from the

beginning, we always knew both were

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the focus, but commercial is where.

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It's more, it's, it will take more work

and more unlocking to really grow that

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market, which we're very bullish on.

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Um, but, um, but defense, yeah, it was

definitely there at the forefront as well.

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Tim Winkler: And just when you think

about how you're going to break down,

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you know, the, uh, a cut from a rep,

maybe from a revenue perspective, you,

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do you have, uh, an idea in your mind

of, of what that might look like from a

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balance of commercial and, uh, defense?

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Topher Haddad: Our goal would

be half and half 50, 50.

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Tim Winkler: Um, I want to talk a little

bit more about, you know, Mike, when

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you, when you invest in these types of

companies, you know, what are some of

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the things that you're looking for from.

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Uh, the foundation of their technology

or the founding team, um, you know,

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what, what is it that they're going

to be up against, you know, when

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they're, when their strategy is to

expand into these more regulated

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Michael Brown: industries?

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Yeah, well, I think, uh, what we look

for is some of the things that you look

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for in any type of venture investment.

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Uh, how big is the market, uh,

in this case, huge, uh, because

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space is undergoing a revolution.

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Maybe we come back to that point here.

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Uh, we look for how strong

is the founding team.

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Uh, Topher is a great example of

that, uh, very capable entrepreneur

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who also comes with co founders.

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So we found that it makes sense if you

have a founding team versus someone who's

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trying to do it solo, there's a lot to get

done in a, in a company as you're getting

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started, as I'm sure Topher can attest to.

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And, uh, we're looking

for some differentiation

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relative to other offerings.

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Topher's got, uh, really the opportunity

to bring, uh, you know, state of the

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art, uh, optical sensors combined

with infrared or thermal imaging.

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And, uh, I think that's going to be

a very, very powerful combination.

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He's also, uh, really pioneering this

concept of what can we do in something

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that is below low earth orbit, very

low earth orbit, where he used the

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acronym a little while ago, uh, VLEO.

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So those are some of the things that

we would look at that looked like,

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uh, it could be a dynamite investment.

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I'll just say one bit about what's

happening in space now for those folks

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who haven't followed it with a nod to

SpaceX, another commercial company.

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Extremely successful here.

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Uh, they have pioneered this concept

of a reusable rocket and it's reduced

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the cost of getting a payload or

whatever you might want to send

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in space by an order of magnitude.

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You just can't underestimate how

important that is for the growth of the

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industry that, uh, Topher is pursuing.

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So the ability to get at a lower

cost, whatever you might want to

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have in space is really allowing an

entire new industry to develop here.

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Um, and that's sensors, all different

types of sensors, in Topher's case,

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it's optical plus a thermal, but there's

other types of sensors like synthetic

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aperture radar, which was used very

effectively to see the Russian intent in

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moving in Ukraine before Putin crossed

the border, because those, uh, technology

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can see through clouds and see at night.

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Um, so this combination of, uh, different

types of sensors that we're able to get

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better resolution of what's happening

on Earth really revolutionizes defense

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because now my situational awareness

is much better than it was before.

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Enemies can't hide.

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It's just going to be impossible

to do things without, uh,

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seeing what, what's happening.

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Uh, and then the commercial application,

most of what we know about the

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earth comes from sensors in space.

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So to be able to watch, um, you know,

climate change, uh, the water content

424

of the, uh, the, uh, snow in the Sierra,

which is so important to know whether

425

California is in drought on and on and

on so many different applications here.

426

And that's really what makes a

great investment is a company

427

that's able to pursue both.

428

The defense market and the, and

the commercial market and into this

429

environment of the revolution in space

and space sensors, that's happening

430

right now, I'm curious, uh, tougher

431

Tim Winkler: with regards to, you

know, an expansion and to, and to more

432

of the defense space, um, you know, D

did you make a, an intentional effort

433

and, uh, uh, you know, scaling a team

that had that type of a background,

434

maybe from a capture or BD perspective.

435

Um, and things that you would recommend

for, you know, maybe those, those startup

436

founders out there that are considering

like, uh, you know, their tech to be

437

injected into, you know, more of a

defense environment, but what steps they

438

might run it, they need to consider or

what, you know, what they might want

439

to do to, uh, give themselves their

best shot to, to navigate those waters.

440

I mean, we're trying to educate a

little bit more on that space because

441

we, a lot of the listeners here are

commercial technologists and so can

442

be, you know, completely, uh, Unknown

territory for folks that have it, like

443

you had the background of Lockheed.

444

So that clearly played a part, but

what would you recommend and say,

445

like some of the things that would

be helpful to those that are trying

446

to dip their toe in those waters?

447

Yeah.

448

Good.

449

Great question.

450

Topher Haddad: I honestly have like

so many lessons learned from being a

451

first time founder on a lot of this.

452

I think at the end of the day, like

you're bringing a capability or

453

product to the market that is valuable

to defense and intelligence, then

454

that's, that's the biggest benefit.

455

And so that, that fits us as well.

456

And we've gotten a lot of traction there.

457

We actually, we haven't really hired

that many dedicated people on the

458

business development and sales side.

459

Most of our team is engineering.

460

Thank you.

461

As we have a lot of core technology

that we're building to launch

462

these satellites, we'll launch our

1st 1 in about a year and a half.

463

Um, and so a lot of the early

BD and sales was done by the

464

founders on the defense side.

465

We brought on a full time, uh, BD

person on the US government side

466

at the beginning of this year.

467

He's phenomenal.

468

But, and he has a lot of help

from the team, different engineers

469

that participate, but it's,

it's still, um, he's, he's the

470

1 full time dedicated to that.

471

But it's still enough for us in

our phase to get a lot of traction

472

when some of these contracts, some

of these, uh, contracts, or the

473

opportunities, like, where Mike.

474

Used to lead and other opportunities from

a perspective that we can pursue and.

475

When some non deleted funding

before we launch that will help

476

us from an R and D perspective.

477

Um, I think from like

an advice perspective.

478

A couple lessons learned in the early

days, we're trying to develop our own

479

proposals and just all the nuances

around that doing it on ourselves.

480

We lost a few at the beginning

and then started working with a

481

consulting group that helped a ton.

482

So, I think adding in some

external support is definitely

483

worth the cost, especially, um.

484

If they're kind of incentivized

by the, the award of it as well.

485

So that I think that was a lesson learned.

486

And then additionally.

487

Getting to the phase 2 part of the

process as quickly as possible opens

488

up a lot of opportunities from a

different type of contract vehicle

489

perspective to win some bigger awards.

490

And so that was helpful for us as well.

491

Uh, in terms of how quickly we were able

to win some of those, but at the end

492

of the day, I think it's really about.

493

It is, does the messaging, the

product itself, like really

494

resonate with those customers?

495

Do they need it?

496

It's solving a pain point.

497

Um, and that's where we've gotten, you

know, the bulk of our traction from of,

498

of not proper product led sales, but

like it's, it's very much product based.

499

And

500

Tim Winkler: uh, we, we touched on

this acronym in a previous episode,

501

but SBIR, what does that uh, stand for?

502

Topher Haddad: Okay.

503

Yeah.

504

I'm not, I'm not good at actually

questions on what acronyms stand

505

for because there's so many of them,

small business, innovation, research,

506

maybe something, is that right?

507

Michael Brown: That's it.

508

That's it.

509

All right.

510

It comes from, uh, uh, the small business

administration, uh, which wanted to fund

511

more smaller companies doing research.

512

Uh, to help the government and so,

uh, there's a tax placed on all of

513

the R and D dollars that are given

to each department of the government.

514

Department of Defense has the

biggest proportion of that.

515

So it turns out to be about a 3

percent tax, about 3 billion that,

516

uh, the Defense Department will

award in SBIR grants each year.

517

Based on its R and D budget.

518

Topher Haddad: Gotcha.

519

Tim Winkler: Okay.

520

And, and Mike, you, you're, you

spent a couple of years or maybe

521

more at the defense innovation unit.

522

Can, can you just give a little bit of

a panel picture of what that role was?

523

Because it sounds like it

obviously played a big part into.

524

How you add value at shield capital as

525

Michael Brown: well.

526

Sure.

527

Sure.

528

Yeah.

529

7 years at the defense department, uh,

and the defense innovation unit again,

530

set up by ash carter because he saw

so many of what we, the innovations

531

that we need are happening in small

companies and silicon valley and other

532

innovation hubs around the country,

as opposed to in government labs.

533

So he saw that flip we talked about

a few minutes ago where the defense

534

department used to be inventing.

535

All the technology it needed.

536

Now it's a 80, 20 on the other side,

about 20 percent of the technology, uh,

537

is invented by defense department and

labs, but most of it is coming from.

538

You know, the, the vibrant

innovation, uh, economy that we have

539

in this country, which is a real

comparative advantage, uh, globally.

540

So, uh, you know, we see that as

companies funded by the venture industry.

541

And these are technologies

like AI, cyberspace autonomy.

542

If you think about where's the,

where are the new things coming from,

543

like, uh, uh, generative AI, then

they're not coming from defense.

544

Or DARPA, even though those folks

are still doing some great work,

545

they're coming from younger,

innovative companies out there.

546

So, as Carter having realized that,

so we need a way to connect with

547

that economy that's happening.

548

So, he created this unit, and

the unit basically does 2 things.

549

1, it scopes for what are the hardest

problems that the defense department has.

550

Some of those will be

military unique, so D.

551

I.

552

U.

553

wouldn't be a factor there, but

many of them will be leveraging the

554

technologies we just talked about, and

we need to find the commercial vendors.

555

So D.

556

I.

557

U.

558

is looking for which are the most

important problems to work on.

559

And then what is the.

560

The commercial vendor set who might

be able to solve that problem.

561

So it's a, it's a matching of the

problem with those commercial vendors.

562

And then it's a process to basically

make sure there's competition among

563

those potential suppliers down, select

and test in a military environment, how

564

well those solutions work and then the

565

DOD partner or customer.

566

We'll be funding that effort and

then getting those scaled up and

567

the uses a special authority,

which has a boring name.

568

Other transaction authority.

569

It was actually created when NASA was

created to in the wake of Sputnik.

570

To make sure that the government could

go fast and not always use something

571

called federal acquisition regulations.

572

Which is every bit as

cumbersome as it sounds.

573

So, by using this special authority of

OTA, it really is allowing DIU to operate

574

more like a commercial entity and to

go faster and streamline the process.

575

Because 1 thing we know, uh, is that.

576

Uh, startup companies, uh, live and die

by cash flow, so the government has to

577

find a way to work faster to be able

to support young companies or they, uh,

578

you know, physically, uh, put up their

hands and say, no, I can't work with you.

579

If you tell me it's going to take

3 or 4 years to get a contract,

580

uh, you could live or die.

581

Uh, is a young company by waiting for the

government, which is why we have a whole

582

set of defense primes that are uniquely

configured to support the government.

583

They know the process and they can wait

that long for a government contract.

584

So, so we need to inject an alternative.

585

A process, which is what

is doing that allows.

586

The government to work better

with a small companies.

587

On that, I think

588

Mike Gruen: that's, that's been 1 of

the things that I've seen as being

589

really great because in the early

days, so my, you know, I worked

590

at plenty of government oriented

companies and trying to get that money.

591

Like, there were plenty of

opportunities where we were like, oh.

592

It wasn't even a government

oriented company.

593

We had opportunities where we had a

commercial product that could benefit

594

the government, but like the sales site,

everything about it was just so hard.

595

It was like, or we can go spend all of

our effort getting, you know, getting

596

these smaller dollars faster rather

than waiting for these big dollars that

597

might take a long, long time to come.

598

So I think that's been a great innovation

on the government side in terms of trying

599

to, trying to understand the cycle that

you have to do to, to get these smaller

600

Topher Haddad: companies in.

601

Tim Winkler: And that's great inside

knowledge for you to have Michael to,

602

to be able to bring to, you know, as

an advisor really to, to these startups

603

that you're investing in, because I

think that's part of it is educating them

604

on, you know, the process and realistic

timelines on what might be, you know,

605

what to expect, because I think that's

where, you know, like you said, as a

606

startup, you're relying on that cash and

those early stages, and you could find

607

yourself in a real pickle if you're.

608

Okay.

609

Putting all your eggs in that

basket, not knowing what that

610

timeline might, might be.

611

Um, so

612

Michael Brown: that's right.

613

Everyone at shield has experienced

both in the government.

614

Many have worn the uniform.

615

So from military background

or, uh, I'd say, and that's

616

not or commercial experience.

617

So most of my career experience

was leading to Silicon Valley

618

companies, quantum and Symantec.

619

So I'm relatively new to the government

side of this, but you need the skill set

620

of both, uh, having led companies, which.

621

This experience Topher is getting

now to, uh, you know, how does

622

it, how can you most effectively

work with government partners?

623

Tim Winkler: Yeah.

624

It's, it's interesting.

625

Topher, I was checking out some of

your, um, advisors, some of your

626

strategic advisors on your board.

627

And you've got folks there that,

you know, former chief of staff

628

from, you know, intelligence

agencies and department of defense.

629

How did you align with those folks?

630

Um, was that some, was that a part of

the, the partnership with, with shield

631

or were those connections that you had?

632

Uh, I'm always curious on how folks

align with their advisory boards.

633

Topher Haddad: Shield was a big, I

think 3 of those 4, 2 of those 4, 3 of

634

those 4 were connections from shield.

635

Um, and yeah, there's definitely,

I mean, we've already, uh, had a

636

ton of value come out of working

with that strategic advisory board.

637

We have former director of the

National Geospatial Agency, uh,

638

vice admiral retired Bob Sharp, who

used to run an intelligence agency

639

that's very relevant for imagery.

640

And then I won't go into

details on the others.

641

They've all been phenomenal.

642

But that was largely, yeah, from, I

think, this signal of Shield's investment

643

of how, um, distinguished the Shield

team is generally across the board.

644

And then, um, getting those

connections, talking about what

645

we're doing and really having people

that are bought into the mission.

646

Um, and so, yeah, that was,

uh, in large part to Shield.

647

Tim Winkler: Do you think, um, well,

I guess with, with your engineering

648

teams, um, what, what are, where are

most of their backgrounds coming from?

649

Topher Haddad: Yeah, I was actually

talking to a friend about this yesterday.

650

He was like, I was looking at y'all's

jobs and your engineering positions.

651

You have lists that just sound crazy

because we have, you know, we need

652

a safe mode, GNC algorithmic expert,

PhD in this thing or whatever.

653

Um, so a lot of, a lot of the

background, we have a fair mix of.

654

Experience from traditional aerospace

classified space like Lockheed Martin,

655

NASA, JPL, et cetera, but then also a fair

mix of kind of the new space alumni with

656

SpaceX and some of these other companies.

657

So, that's been a great

combo for us from a culture.

658

And just engineering philosophy

perspective, and some of the key.

659

And some of the key aspects of

how we've been so successful so

660

far is bringing on these people

that have a lot of experience.

661

Pretty complex spacecraft from the

traditional aerospace domain that,

662

you know, are much more expensive, but

have these very exquisite capabilities

663

that we now are in the kind of freeze.

664

That's pretty, but like, um, the

less constrained space startup

665

world, and we can move much faster.

666

1 of our core values is

high speed, low drag.

667

And so we have all that experience

and then we have it in this

668

less constrained environment.

669

We can really build some amazing

technology that's much more affordable,

670

but still very capable and very, um,

uh, yeah, very, very high performance.

671

So so it's a fair mix of kind of

different space engineering type

672

backgrounds, some more traditional

software backgrounds, but largely

673

it's very specialized aerospace jobs.

674

One of the

675

Tim Winkler: big things, you

know, just being based in the D.

676

C.

677

area, we've, you know, we've worked with

a fair share of, you know, uh, government

678

contracting companies, you know,

commercial product, you know, companies,

679

um, you know, within services, right,

there's, there's a lot of work that's done

680

that's, that's in a cleared environment.

681

Uh, you know, you can only get exposure

to certain, you know, Uh, pieces of

682

work, especially if it's an Intel, right.

683

If you're, you know, top secret and

beyond types of types of clearance,

684

when you're talking about building

products, um, that might be, you know,

685

supporting these agencies, uh, would

you say it's, it's something that, you

686

know, you're looking for folks that have.

687

Built products that have, you

know, uh, been, uh, impacting,

688

you know, secure environments.

689

I mean, I guess trying to think of how,

what level of security, uh, it comes

690

into play from a build perspective.

691

Right.

692

But.

693

Not really necessarily saying like

they need a security clearance, right.

694

But, um, you know, I'd imagine when

you're building, you know, for,

695

for some of these agencies, right.

696

They, they want to ensure like

security is kept top front center.

697

Uh, is that something that, that

plays into your, uh, strategy when

698

you're talking about hiring up

engineers that are building for,

699

you know, those types of customers?

700

Topher Haddad: Not intentionally, more

by coincidence, so a lot of our, a

701

lot of our engineers, including myself

and one of my co founders, AJ, we

702

all worked, you know, for years in a

building with no windows, and we couldn't

703

bring our phone inside and et cetera.

704

Um, also, it's just, it's crazy

going from that to now, like, I

705

can do half of my work on my phone

because it's all Slack and email.

706

It's a paradigm shift.

707

Um, but.

708

But not so not intentionally, but by

coincidence, we do have a lot of those

709

those people and some of them still have

their clearances sponsored through other

710

projects that they work on, which is

helpful for us for albedo, because it

711

is beneficial to have familiarity with

what's going on in that environment.

712

What kind of use cases and missions we

can really provide value for, but in

713

terms of how we're building the product

and like needing to put the technology in

714

certain places that we're not necessarily

building classified type technology, but

715

it is there are considerations, which is

kind of a separate regulatory framework

716

around how we can export information.

717

What kind of technologies we

can use in terms of supply

718

chain and things like that.

719

Um, so it's still is kind

of in that family with.

720

Thank you.

721

Those types of technologies,

but not necessarily needing

722

to be in a skiff or anything.

723

Tim Winkler: Got it.

724

Okay.

725

Yeah, that's, that's something that

I think a lot of folks maybe has some

726

hesitancy when they, when they look

to expand is, you know, do I, am I a

727

need to become a cleared facility here?

728

Um, I think that's a different

ball game if you're doing services.

729

It's obviously it's very little bit

different than building product.

730

Um, but, um, always just bring it up

because I think it's, it is something

731

that we get asked quite a bit if we're.

732

Working on that, a product

type of role that's injecting

733

that technology into defense.

734

Michael Brown: This is indicative of

how much defense is changing because

735

if we went back 10 or 15 years,

it would have all been classified.

736

We're all been built by the government.

737

Now, you've got the ability to

have all these sensors developed

738

by commercial companies available

for anyone to use that information.

739

So, the defense department needs it, but

the flip side is if we don't figure out

740

how to use that adversaries also can take

advantage of that commercial information.

741

So this is where defense needs to be

much more welcoming of what's happening

742

in the commercial world to combine what

we can learn from those sensors with

743

the exquisite government satellites,

which are still being produced.

744

But it's the combination of that.

745

That's very powerful.

746

Right.

747

Tim Winkler: And that's, what's

great about the, you know, the work

748

that, you know, you all are doing

at shield capital and, um, you know,

749

some of these other agencies that are

really kind of pushing the bill on.

750

You know, being more open, uh, I think

that's, you know, you kind of touched on

751

those OTAs, but I think, you know, that's

kind of like, uh, the backstory of, of

752

where some of this began and, and, uh,

you know, continuing to expand on that.

753

I, we, we've been seeing it front and

center and I love to see, you know,

754

a lot more, uh, investment being

applied to those types of industries.

755

It's exciting and necessary.

756

Um, I guess before we transition into

the, the final segment, Mike Bruin,

757

did you, did you have any other

758

Mike Gruen: questions?

759

Yeah.

760

I mean, there's always questions

I like to ask about the sort of

761

the funding and that process.

762

And Mike, one question for you.

763

Um, like you mentioned earlier, assessing

co founders and a, you'd like to have

764

actual co founders and not just a single

founder, but like, are there any concrete

765

things that you really are looking

for from, from a co founding team?

766

Michael Brown: Um, I'm curious.

767

Well, that's all about just bringing

complimentary expertise to the CEO.

768

I mean, the CEO is the most important

person on that management team.

769

So we've got to have faith as we do

in Topher, uh, that he's going to be

770

able to build a successful company,

but no, because no one can do that

771

alone, no matter how talented, uh, we

would look for complimentary skills.

772

So it could be someone that,

uh, shoulders, part of the

773

engineering or people who are.

774

You know, helping on the sales and

marketing side, but you just need

775

complimentary expertise around you.

776

There's just too much to

do as a single person.

777

And then you get into a fundraising

period, which Topher's and now, and

778

that, you know, sucks all the oxygen out

of the room for the time that occurs.

779

Because the number one job

of a CEO is to make sure.

780

You have a cash in the bank

that allows you the runway to

781

keep developing the product.

782

You don't have that.

783

It all comes to a screeching halt, right?

784

Mike Gruen: And actually, that's a

great segue to for like, what's been

785

the most surprising thing for you as

a first time founder going through all

786

Topher Haddad: this process

of getting that capital.

787

Um, uh, yeah, good question.

788

And I'll just comment on

the co founder aspect too.

789

I think one thing that's been

really, I think in the early days,

790

we identified this pretty quickly.

791

It was just the dynamic between

myself and my two co founders was.

792

Kind of the perfect fit to Mike's point

of just complimentary skill sets and being

793

able to be dynamic when, like, in this

example, I'm fundraising and I'm just

794

like, okay, sorry, guys, can y'all can

y'all do all this stuff normally doing?

795

I'm not fundraising.

796

Um, but that dynamic aspect, and then

the, the, um, the collaborate, the

797

collaboration aspect where I think for

us, it's been helpful to have 3 because.

798

Especially in the early days, we, we

very much more were decided by consensus.

799

Now we just don't have time for that.

800

We have to divide and conquer,

but having that, you know, always

801

one other, or always a majority or

just like those types of dynamics

802

I think was really helpful for us.

803

So three has been good from a

capital perspective to your question.

804

Um, you know, I, I don't know if there's

been anything that stands out as like

805

a big surprise as a first time founder.

806

I think personally, I probably like.

807

I wouldn't say I like fundraising,

but I probably like it more than most.

808

I think most practices

really don't like it.

809

I think it does kind of fit a lot of my

natural skill sets of, um, of kind of the

810

sales pitching aspect of it, but then also

like having the engineering background

811

and the technology we're building.

812

And so I think maybe one surprise that's

more of a recent one is just every, every

813

round, it gets harder to delegate and

really get into full time fundraising

814

mode, because that's the ideal is that.

815

That's that's all of your time.

816

Um, kind of to my point earlier and

so it just gets harder and harder

817

because as the company grows.

818

There's just more going on.

819

Um, and so, but yeah, it's, uh,

it's been a good journey for us.

820

The timing has been good

from a funding perspective.

821

And we, uh, we're fortunate to have

investors that not only just provide

822

capital, but provide a lot of value.

823

Like.

824

I mean, I think that's an

825

Mike Gruen: important last point on

the getting investors that add value.

826

Um, I've worked at any number of companies

and, you know, there's this notion

827

of like smart money and dumb money.

828

And I've also worked at places

where there's indifferent money.

829

The, the people, the, the,

the investors are smart.

830

They.

831

They know the space, but they're kind of

indifferent and have so much trust in the

832

founders that they're not that involved.

833

Um, it's just, this is

like interesting dynamic.

834

And I think, um, making sure that

you have that relationship, right?

835

And that the people

that are investing are.

836

Like, as I think you've done a great job

with, uh, with shield and everything,

837

just really aligning, um, investors with

the company itself and the overall goals.

838

Um, so that's awesome.

839

Topher Haddad: Seems like a really great

840

Michael Brown: match.

841

Yep.

842

One thing about shield, uh, we're

a small, uh, fund, this fund, 175

843

million under management, you might

know some VC firms have billions.

844

I think, uh, you know, Andreessen Horowitz

might have 30 plus billion Sequoia.

845

So for us, every investment matters.

846

What can we do to make sure that Topher

is successful is on the agenda for us.

847

Um, if you're a huge fund like

that, there's no way you could

848

monitor every investment with

that, that same level of care.

849

Topher Haddad: Right.

850

Yeah.

851

I'll add onto that with shield

specifically compared to some

852

of some other investors we have

with those really big funds.

853

Is that we have our people from shield

that are on our board and support us

854

very heavily, but I feel like I get

help from a lot of the team at shield,

855

not just our 2 kind of core people.

856

It's like, I'm on this

podcast with Mike right now.

857

And I feel like I know a lot

of the different team that

858

can help in different ways.

859

So I think that's 1 benefit we have

at Albedo partnering with shield as a

860

small team and a smaller fund is that.

861

There's a lot of that, you know, um,

a lot of value there across the team,

862

not just with your single partner,

like it would be traditionally the

863

case, maybe at a different VC fund.

864

Tim Winkler: I'm getting some good

vibes right now on this, this,

865

uh, pairing of, of bringing a

VC and their portfolio founder.

866

I kind of like it.

867

We've never done it before.

868

So this is the first of its kind.

869

I didn't want it to get too

biased, but I think we're, I

870

think we're in good shape here.

871

This is a, this has been a really,

really good back and forth.

872

And, uh, I think it is important.

873

It's important to, you know, I think

that's a good point, uh, to for like,

874

you know, Mike saw value in bringing, you

know, you on and, you know, using this as

875

a platform to continue the conversation.

876

So yeah, good on you guys.

877

All right.

878

Uh, let's, let's transition

to the final segment here.

879

Um, it's called the five second scramble.

880

I'll ask you each a series of questions.

881

Try to give me a response

within five seconds.

882

Um, and, uh, some will be

business some will be personal.

883

I'm going to start with you to

for, uh, explain albedo to me as

884

if I were a 5 year old big camera.

885

Topher Haddad: Go space.

886

Tim Winkler: How would you describe

887

Topher Haddad: your culture?

888

Also, I had to credit 1 of our

software engineers for that line.

889

That was his, um, culture,

uh, transparent driven.

890

Tim Winkler: High speed, low drag.

891

What kind of technologist

thrives at Albedo?

892

Topher Haddad: Tinkerers, curious

people, and experienced, uh,

893

Tim Winkler: engineers.

894

What can folks be most excited

895

At the end of this year?

896

Or yeah.

897

Yeah, for, for, for the, let's

just say the next 12 months,

898

Topher Haddad: so much, a lot of

technical milestones, a lot of risk

899

burn down manufacturing, getting into,

into hardware builds, um, and getting

900

closer to that launch date in early 2025.

901

What's

902

Tim Winkler: the top value add

that you look for in an investment

903

partner beyond the check?

904

So, uh,

905

Topher Haddad: getting

in the trenches with us.

906

Tim Winkler: Yeah, good answer.

907

What do you love most about yourself?

908

Oh, gosh.

909

Topher Haddad: My liking of Topo Chico.

910

Tim Winkler: We'll take that.

911

If you had to pick one fast food joint

to establish as the first restaurant

912

on Mars, which one would it be?

913

Probably Raising Cane's.

914

We just got one of

those actually out here.

915

Is it, is it like that, is it,

916

Topher Haddad: I haven't had it in

a couple years, but I just, I fond

917

college memories of a lot of , you

know, late night rai paints,

918

Right.

919

Tim Winkler: Alright.

920

Um, what's the worst fashion

trend that you've ever followed?

921

Oh.

922

Topher Haddad: Oh, that's tough.

923

Probably the way I dressed.

924

Before my friend started a company

called Wythe and now I just wear all

925

his clothes because I have no taste

for fashion, but I know he does, so.

926

Tim Winkler: What's the

name of the company?

927

Wythe

928

Topher Haddad: New York.

929

Okay.

930

This is his shirt.

931

We also have great swag at Albedo.

932

We've got a...

933

That's a side hustle that might actually

turn into the majority of our revenue.

934

Tim Winkler: That's where Mike's

investment dollars have been going.

935

Topher Haddad: Uh, yeah, that's where

the big returns are coming from.

936

Tim Winkler: Um, what's a

charity or corporate philanthropy

937

that's near and dear to you.

938

Oh, that's a good question.

939

Topher Haddad: Um, actually, uh, uh,

John Serafini who supports shield

940

started this, uh, effort for Ukraine.

941

And, uh, that's been cool.

942

There's been a lot of earth observation

companies have gotten behind that.

943

So that's, that's the

one that comes to mind.

944

Tim Winkler: Cool.

945

We'll, we'll throw it in the show notes.

946

Um, what's one skill or hobby

that you always wanted to learn,

947

but you haven't had the chance to

948

Topher Haddad: skateboarding.

949

I.

950

Like a lot.

951

I try to get into it

and then I get injured.

952

I just hurt my wrist

a couple of weeks ago.

953

So didn't do that as a kid.

954

I really like it, but I'm not, I feel like

I've never quite gotten there to really

955

Tim Winkler: get into it.

956

That's good.

957

Cool.

958

Uh, and last one, greatest,

uh, superhero of all time.

959

Nice.

960

All right.

961

That's a wrap.

962

Um, you are, you are a good passive

flying colors, Topher, uh, Michael,

963

you are up, um, what is your favorite

stage of startup to invest in

964

Michael Brown: seed as early as possible?

965

Topher Haddad: What's your favorite

966

Tim Winkler: part of the

culture at Shield Capital?

967

Topher Haddad: Uh,

968

Michael Brown: collaborative,

uh, but also, uh, environment

969

where we speak the truth.

970

So it's direct, direct and collaborative.

971

Tim Winkler: What technologies are

you most excited about investing

972

in, in the next 12 months?

973

Michael Brown: We'll have

to include space, right?

974

Even though that's not, not

my specialty, um, space, AI,

975

um, and cyber, my favorites.

976

Tim Winkler: What, who is one

of your biggest role models?

977

Michael Brown: Oh my goodness.

978

These days, a tremendous respect and

we lost him too soon was Ash Carter.

979

Just a phenomenal leader for innovation

and cared so much about people.

980

I don't know, it depends.

981

Yep.

982

Tim Winkler: Uh, what is a

charity or corporate philanthropy

983

that's near and dear to you?

984

Uh,

985

Topher Haddad: um,

986

Michael Brown: second harvest food

bank to, uh, try and end hunger,

987

even in, uh, areas that are pretty

affluent, like Northern California,

988

Tim Winkler: lighthearted transition here.

989

Uh, do you have a favorite cereal?

990

That's a pretty serious question.

991

Topher Haddad: I'm

992

Tim Winkler: sorry, we're

going to switch it up.

993

Uh, favorite, favorite

994

Topher Haddad: cereal.

995

Yeah.

996

I talked about superheroes and

997

Tim Winkler: we're on the tail end

and it's going to get real fun here.

998

Watch.

999

Um, do you have a favorite

cereal or breakfast food?

00:49:24,780 --> 00:49:25,550

Michael Brown: Favorite cereal.

00:49:26,125 --> 00:49:28,655

I'm eating a lot of heritage flakes.

00:49:28,655 --> 00:49:32,255

It's, uh, it's kind of like cardboard,

but it's a little bit of granola mixed

00:49:36,335 --> 00:49:36,495

Topher Haddad: in.

00:49:37,235 --> 00:49:38,185

When you get to my age,

00:49:38,735 --> 00:49:41,535

Michael Brown: you can't be eating, uh,

you know, uh, frosted flakes anymore.

00:49:43,235 --> 00:49:45,445

Tim Winkler: Uh, do you have

a celebrity doppelganger?

00:49:48,925 --> 00:49:51,175

Michael Brown: Well, this is an

old one, but a lot of people said I

00:49:51,175 --> 00:49:52,365

look very much like Michael Dukakis.

00:49:53,725 --> 00:49:56,075

If you remember him, he was a

presidential candidate, but from.

00:49:56,815 --> 00:50:01,315

Very long time ago, I ran

against, uh, uh, Bush 41.

00:50:01,345 --> 00:50:03,595

I think I'm the only one on

this call that might remember

00:50:06,135 --> 00:50:06,275

Topher Haddad: that.

00:50:07,655 --> 00:50:11,285

Michael Brown: I'm not good looking enough

to have other celebrity doppelgangers.

00:50:13,315 --> 00:50:15,725

Tim Winkler: Do you have any

phobias or irrational fears?

00:50:19,505 --> 00:50:20,275

Michael Brown: Snakes, I guess.

00:50:21,835 --> 00:50:22,495

That's, that's.

00:50:22,985 --> 00:50:23,715

Don't want to get very

00:50:23,715 --> 00:50:24,485

Tim Winkler: close with snakes.

00:50:24,825 --> 00:50:25,095

Same.

00:50:25,770 --> 00:50:28,280

Uh, if you could have any

superpower, what would it be?

00:50:29,740 --> 00:50:31,670

Michael Brown: Oh, uh, knowing the future.

00:50:33,120 --> 00:50:34,360

It'd be very useful in my business.

00:50:35,080 --> 00:50:35,360

Tim Winkler: Yeah.

00:50:36,700 --> 00:50:40,090

And we'll cap it off, uh,

favorite Disney character?

00:50:41,680 --> 00:50:43,100

Michael Brown: Mickey

Mouse, the first one.

00:50:43,910 --> 00:50:44,490

Nice.

00:50:45,630 --> 00:50:46,330

Tim Winkler: Good stuff.

00:50:46,450 --> 00:50:48,570

All right, that is a wrap.

00:50:48,630 --> 00:50:51,000

Uh, thank you both for, for joining us.

00:50:51,060 --> 00:50:52,910

Uh, you've both been great guests.

00:50:52,950 --> 00:50:55,410

Uh, I think it's an interesting topic.

00:50:55,410 --> 00:50:55,540

It's.

00:50:55,885 --> 00:50:58,325

It's very top of mind for a lot of folks.

00:50:58,455 --> 00:51:02,495

Um, so appreciate y'all coming on and,

and spending time with us on, uh, on the

00:51:02,495 --> 00:51:03,095

Michael Brown: pair program.

00:51:03,705 --> 00:51:04,295

Fun to be with

00:51:04,295 --> 00:51:04,435

Topher Haddad: you.