Shownotes
Jen and I went to college together at Cornish College of the Arts in the art department back in the '90s. We sort of went our separate ways after college, but last year she reached out to me to be an artist in her Supperfield Museum of Contemporary Art in Seattle, where she currently lives. During one of our conversations leading up to the show I think that she said something to the effect that she has so many talents, she doesn’t know why she isn’t rich. And, I said I totally related to the feeling of being an underappreciated and underpaid Renaissance woman. So, I had to bring her on the podcast to chat with me about just that thing: being a broke-ass Renaissance woman.
Jennifer McNeely has exhibited her work in her home of the Pacific Northwest and across the country for over 25 years in both solo and group exhibitions. As a process based artist, she relies on the materials to inform her work. This unique approach and her prolific pace has earned her accolades including: The Artist Trust GAP Grant, Portable Works Program, and inclusion in private collections and publications, including a documentary series on BBC.
You can find Jen on IG here: @jenmcneelyart
and here: @smcaseattle
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Transcripts
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[:[00:00:34] Lorna: Without further ado, let’s dig in together and figure out ways to resist societal expectations while re-imagining a world where mature women are made visible and empowered to become their own passion projects. Let’s do this.
[:[00:01:06] Lorna: As a process-based artist, she relies on the materials to inform her work. This unique approach and her prolific pace has earned her accolades, including the Artist Trust Gap grant, portable works program, and inclusion in private collections and publications, including a documentary series on BBC. Jen and I went to college together at Cornish College of the Arts in the art department.
[:[00:02:22] Jen: There’s so many. Really, I think, you know, the thing I seriously think that’s different about me is that I have really good communication between my left brain and my right brain.
[:[00:02:36] Jen: I’m ambidextrous and so I can think creatively and logically. And so that, that is probably my biggest skill, but that leads me to I’m not only an artist.
[:[00:02:52] Lorna: Oh, I didn’t know that.
[:[00:03:15] Jen: I was really good. In fact, in college, Greg Skinner was like, you know, you really should go into administration. You’re just so good at it. I was like, what?
[:[00:03:22] Lorna: And Greg Skinner, Skinner is who?
[:[00:03:32] Jen: So I think my, my biggest skills are that I’m really creative, but I also have a practical side so I can sort of facilitate. Creative ventures or can make a plan to see them to fruition, which is something that I think a lot of artists get tripped up on. So I’m pretty lucky that way. That’s probably my biggest skill. And then, yeah, that’s probably my biggest skill.
[:[00:03:55] Jen: yeah.
[:[00:03:57] Jen: I do have many talents, so I, I do have many talents. I do a lot of crafts. I do beading and clay work and fiber work along with art. So I’m always working on something. I do music, play guitar, and sing and write music. Yeah, I do a lot of things.
[:[00:04:32] Lorna: and
[:[00:04:34] Lorna: have a museum
[:[00:04:37] Lorna: And you are a psychic.
[:[00:04:41] Jen: Yes.
[:[00:04:45] Jen: Yes, yes. Sorry. I forget. Yeah. I’m a psychic. I work as a psychic and I have my own museum, which is super exciting. I have my own museum.
[:[00:04:55] Jen: That’s like everyone’s dream. Maybe it is my dream and now it’s my nightmare.
[:[00:05:06] Jen: the Supperfield Museum came about right before the pandemic. We started building. And it came about because I love miniatures and I have a dollhouse that I would work on and have and post sometimes on Instagram with these stories of the dolls. Like the dolls have personalities and drama happening all the time.
[:[00:05:46] Jen: I was like, here, I’m super tired. This is my idea. It’s really good. And he was like, you should do that idea. And I was like, I can’t I’m tired. And he said, well, I am looking at getting a space. I can’t tell you anything right now, but stay tuned. And if I get that space, I want you to do that project. And he did end up getting this space, which is the Museum of Museums up on Capitol Hill, and he called and said, I’m giving you your museum. And so we started the process of, um, building it, and we had the architects from M B B J do a proposal and we selected one, and then we got to the build of it and they were like, yeah, this’ll be $70,000 to build. And we were like, uh, so we took that design, and my husband, who is a, who is a designer and also an artist and amazingly skilled.
[:[00:06:38] Jen: No, um, he designs, he designs furniture and architectural details, and he does art and ceramics and he’s just an artist kind of guy.
[:[00:07:09] Jen: And we worked on it. And eventually, we opened in 2020 at the Museum of Museums and the first show went up and then everything shut down again. And so the first show was up for like a year. So we’re going on our third year now. And, Three shows a year for the last two years, and so it’s like the seventh or eighth show. It’s more of an exhibition season because there’s multiple shows in each season. So, like I have five gallery spaces, so there’s usually four different artists, or you know, or one big group show.
[:[00:07:51] Lorna: watching television,
[:[00:07:53] Lorna: and they were usually these soft sculptures. And it seems like you’re still doing those, but then they also morphed into the miniature dolls, and when I was in the show, I didn’t know a little bit later that you are actually going to be making a caricature doll for each participant in the show,
[:[00:08:18] Lorna: like inspired by their personalities
[:[00:08:43] Jen: And then there’s sort of always drama happening. Usually, it doesn’t involve the artists too much. They’re more like characters in the ongoing scene. Right now, there’s an unsolved murder for.
[:[00:08:58] Lorna: I didn’t know about that.
[:[00:09:03] Jen: There’s an overreaching storyline that is a longer term storyline that has the main characters, and then there’s shorter term storylines that usually have to do with the news. Like when there were protests at one of the museums because the patrons were involved in something nefarious. I put that into the museum.
[:[00:09:30] Jen: That was very dramatic. So things like that that happen periodically. And so it’s fun because people can follow the museum on multiple levels. Like they can just follow. On Instagram and be like, oh, that’s fun.
[:[00:09:49] Lorna: Okay, So our listeners can potentially follow the storyline too.
[:[00:09:57] Jen: No, not at this time. Part of that is for safety. Like we have had a couple thefts, like real theft.
[:[00:10:16] Jen: There’s a board of directors, there’s the Supperfield family, which is a total train wreck and there’s history there. So it’s usually told by the post, and then there’s hints in the hashtag. Of like things to come or stuff like that. So it’s sort of a meta layered approach to the story that people can engage in on any level or just enjoy it because it’s super fun with, you know, miniature art.
[:[00:11:03] Lorna: You were open to me doing something more conceptual and my art for the museum ended up just being a QR code to direct people to my website that had a page on it for my project, which was run the uterus.
[:[00:11:30] Lorna: Yes. Yes. And that’s something that I never really let myself do in the past before. Creating a project that was interactive and really, made people think about certain topics in life while they were also physically doing something. Like running. So that was really fun for me. And so I wanna thank you for giving me the opportunity to participate in the Supperfield Museum.
[:[00:12:07] Jen: I think.
[:[00:12:20] Lorna: Is there any one thing?
[:[00:12:35] Lorna: How many years has it been?
[:[00:12:42] Lorna: Right. And you graduated in 95,
[:[00:12:47] Jen: Yeah. And I’m in a show right now, so that’s a long time. Is that, 30 years or 25, 25 to 30 years, something like that. Yeah. I try to show, at least to be in a group show at least every year. And I’m working right now on gearing towards a solo show, so I’m kinda getting my studio cleaned out to start on that.
[:[00:13:25] Jen: Like if you’re a teacher or something, like if you’re an artist, you need to keep learning new creative skills because your expansion feeds your primary outlet,
[:[00:13:47] Jen: Yeah, I guess so. Yeah. I mean, it’s, it’s just part of who I am. I can’t imagine. When people say that to me, like, oh, I’m not very creative. I’m like, you are. People are, everybody is. Yes, everybody is. It’s just you have, like, I have one child who, so I’m married to an artist and their family is full of artists, all artists.
[:[00:14:22] Jen: There’s a tattoo artist, there’s a painter, there’s a sculptor.
[:[00:14:30] Jen: Right, that makes me sad because everybody is so innately creative and it’s so important. This is like breathing. You know, like for me, I’m not super good naturally at music.
[:[00:14:52] Lorna: Yes, that’s my son,
[:[00:15:00] Jen: I have to work, I practice every day and still I’m like, ah, it’s so frustrating, but it’s satisfying. But I can’t, and I don’t, I try not to compare myself to people that are like naturally good at it, cuz it’s, it’s not helpful for me. I’m just trying to get better, you know, for myself.
[:[00:15:29] Jen: Yeah. You don’t have to share everything.
[:[00:15:31] Jen: You, you really shouldn’t, you really shouldn’t share everything.
[:[00:15:44] Lorna: Being a broke renaissance woman.
[:[00:15:50] Jen: Right.
[:[00:16:14] Jen: for sure. Yeah, I don’t get paid. That’s not how I make my money. But it’s true. I don’t even actually try to make money like that anymore. I did for a while, but I always knew, like, here’s the thing, right? We live in a capitalist society that doesn’t give a shit about artists for real. Like for real.
[:[00:16:52] Jen: So I just right away was like, well, I’m not gonna bother trying to make money doing that. I better find a good skill I can make money at because I don’t wanna be poor. Cuz I grew up in an economically challenged situation and I didn’t. That’s super unfun all through college. It was a struggle, you know, trying to like eating rice for two weeks or whatever. I mean, I don’t want like to use the word poor, but yes. Biscuits, yes. Something I could make. And just, it was always, I don’t, nobody wants to live like that. So I early was trying to plot and plan of like how I could avoid that. So I did focus on some administrative skills and like I said, finance skills that were marketable.
[:[00:17:38] Lorna: Yeah, but just thinking about the society and the under-appreciation for creativity, like I feel like creativity can be applied in so many different ways. It can be applied in the way cities are planned, for example,
[:[00:17:52] Lorna: It can be applied in The way cities are dealing with the homeless situation right now. If they had tasked and put money aside, I feel like for creatives to come up with a way to help the homeless people. I mean, cuz we have encampments everywhere now in Portland. I just look out my window and they’re like two or three.
[:[00:18:16] Lorna: Right, right there. Like if they put creative minds to work.
[:[00:18:21] Lorna: Come up with something to help these people and also make something that, you know, it’s a livable space for them that is also Attractive in the community, giving the people confidence, the where they live, and giving people in the city that are, you know, hoping that they can have these places integrated, have them feeling safe about the design of whatever that ends up looking like. I just feel like there’s so many missed opportunities for using creatives to fix things.
[:[00:19:13] Jen: And that’s just sort of how your brain works. And yeah, that skill is super needed in everything, but it’s not profitable. It could be profitable. And I’ll tell you that artists that work in.
[:[00:19:34] Lorna: Are you talking about graphic designers?
[:[00:19:44] Jen: Yes. In graphic design, like somebody that is an artist is gonna bring so much more to the company than somebody who isn’t because they have this additional like sense of problem solving that that regular people don’t have, or they could have, but they don’t develop it. it’s not developed. And I think there’s been an increase lately in all these big companies like around here, like Microsoft and stuff like that, bringing artists in like doing workshops and stuff about, they had a songwriter come in to Microsoft and do like, here’s a songwriting practice.
[:[00:20:34] Lorna: Mm-hmm.
[:[00:20:59] Lorna: People are tired. Yeah, people are tired, but they also need to get energized and find ways to get energized because I mean the Earth is on fire,
[:[00:21:28] Lorna: So let’s just talk about the patriarchy for a
[:[00:21:32] Jen: yeah.
[:[00:21:47] Jen: Oh, for sure. yeah, for sure. I think that now, like it’s interesting now as an older fiber artist. Or somebody who works in the, the genre that I work in. seeing artists now that are in their twenties and thirties, you know, doing work and they don’t have any kind of resistance to the work like that I had when I started making work. Nobody really wanted to show my work. Um, people weren’t really interested in showing it commercially. It’s still not super popular commercially.
[:[00:22:21] Lorna: or,
[:[00:22:38] Jen: Like it was in the seventies too. There was a movement in the seventies. But I kind of felt right in the middle of those. So that didn’t work out so great for me that that’s what I was doing at that time.
[:[00:22:53] Jen: Yeah.
[:[00:22:57] Lorna: Fifties, sixties, Fifties, seventies. I don’t
[:[00:23:01] Jen: sixties, seventies, eighties.
[:[00:23:04] Jen: When did she die? Early. Two thousands.
[:[00:23:21] Jen: Mm-hmm.
[:[00:23:34] Jen: how much,
[:[00:23:36] Lorna: A and also that it was very cerebral as, as well as tactile, and she was dealing with feminist issues. I feel like there have been women in the art history that have really been like forerunners. Who have been setting it up for other women to follow in their footsteps, but they’re few and far between because back then, and I don’t know about now cause I’ve kind of stepped out of it, but it’s male dominated like many things.
[:[00:24:10] Lorna: Male gallery owners, male museum, you know, people who run the museum’s, curators and
[:[00:24:50] Jen: And then I, oh, my work doesn’t, that’s not what my work is about. Like, I can’t, it’s not commercially viable. Uh, at all. And so, so I tried museums, and museums were also not ready for me. I think now, if I was now, then it would be great, but I wasn’t.
[:[00:25:16] Lorna: Yes, I hear that. Mm-hmm.
[:[00:25:27] Jen: Like right now, everybody wants young people of color and queer people because that’s what’s, they’re being called out for, not being inclusive. So everybody wants that right now, and it’s very trendy. And then it’ll be something else. And there will be no lasting change. There will be no change. I kind of bowed out of that a long time ago and realized that wasn’t how I was gonna be happy because it just made me frustrated, angry, and defeated.
[:[00:26:05] Jen: And not worrying so much about that because when you really look at what’s being shown at the art fairs and the, unless you’re super into that, like you really like the art world and you really wanna go do all that, like, it’s just, ugh, it’s just gross. I don’t like it. I, it’s not, some people get into it.
[:[00:26:25] Jen: like,
[:[00:26:47] Lorna: I had one point in time. I had two different galleries that featured my artwork and were trying to schedule me, you know, you have like the annual solo show or biannual solo show and then you have the group shows. I just didn’t wanna have to continue making the same thing. It was really boring to me
[:[00:27:15] Lorna: wanted to experiment and go other places. And when you are in a gallery, They want you to do what they brought you on to do. They’re like, you’re a painter and you paint these, you know, abstract things. And so that’s, we booked you two years from now for the solo show. And if you don’t show up doing those abstract paintings, uh, we don’t know what to do with you. Like you just don’t fit in. And they also have a specific person that they’re looking for. because they look, at their collection of artists and saying, what do we need that we don’t have right now?
[:[00:27:50] Lorna: in. So that was frustrating. And then also I tried doing commission work and there, while there was money in that, it was soul killing.
[:[00:28:01] Lorna: You know, just doing artwork that matches somebody’s couch, basical.
[:[00:28:27] Jen: Or whatever, 10,000. Even 10,000. You sell all 12 and you get half that. So you get $5,000 times 12, which is what is that? $60,000 for two years work before tax. So that’s like $40,000 that you’ve made over two years,
[:[00:28:59] Jen: Any artist that is. Making their living solely on art has a combination of gallery sales commissions, teaching workshops, teaching art, applying for grants, which is a full-time job.
[:[00:29:28] Jen: They weren’t successful.
[:[00:29:30] Lorna: Okay,
[:[00:29:49] Lorna: Even if it’s $5 each.
[:[00:30:05] Lorna: Yep.
[:[00:30:09] Jen: And, and again, it’s like the N B A, there’s what percentage of people that are really gifted and talented make it into those high level positions where it’s, it’s, you know, it’s that. If you’re going for that, it’s like a tiny, tiny percent. So there’s bazillions of artists who are better than you, younger than you, well, better connected than you, you know, have more finances backing them, probably rich parents and whatnot than you.
[:[00:30:44] Lorna: If money was no object, what would your life look differently now? Would there be a creative endeavor that you would just go in a hundred percent.
[:[00:31:04] Lorna: What would your life
[:[00:31:06] Jen: what would my life look like? Well, money isn’t my biggest problem right now.
[:[00:31:31] Jen: I don’t care. But, but yes, if money was no object, I guess I. Expand my house so I could have a much larger studio. Cuz my studio is literally eight feet by like, or no, 10 feet by 12. It’s very small. I would love a bigger studio. Yeah. I spend, I mean, most of the time that I wanna be making art. I’m caretaking.
[:[00:31:53] Jen: I, can’t outsource teenagers that I know of.
[:[00:31:57] Jen: I mean, my dad is, he’s in a place that, you know, takes care of him most of the time. So I’ve outsourced what I can. I also would like chickens.
[:[00:32:22] Jen: And I would, yes, and I would probably hire an animal helper and maybe I would hire a cleaner. So now that I’m getting into this idea, yes. And a cook,
[:[00:32:38] Jen: Yeah, I need outsourcing. I would like a bigger area. In which to have all my, okay, now I’m gonna buy the house behind me. That’s my plan now
[:[00:32:49] Jen: and I’m gonna build, so then I can just have all my things over there and then get some real serious help with all my duties and things.
[:[00:33:02] Lorna: Yes.
[:[00:33:13] Jen: I’m pretty simple. I’m not,
[:[00:33:16] Lorna: Just Just the Chicken Mansion.
[:[00:33:24] Lorna: Exactly. They’re like little chicken children. They each have the individual personalities
[:[00:33:35] Lorna: so what. Moving on from the chicken nanny,
[:[00:33:48] Jen: Well, this was recently said about me. My daughter’s best friend said that she’s very impressed how I can run the whole house from the couch, my phone, and that’s true. I am a world class multitasker. I can handle my dad’s medication, appointments for everybody, order the groceries while making something, and watching Murder She Wrote. I’m like, dad is ordered. You know, that is taken care of. So I’m really good at multitasking. I think my other badass quality is I’m super resilient, really resilient. And I’m optimistic. I always feel kind of hope. I don’t always feel hopeful, but a lot of times I feel hopeful like, okay, well this probably is as bad as it can get.
[:[00:34:45] Lorna: multitasker wise, would you say
[:[00:34:53] Jen: yes,
[:[00:35:01] Jen: Yes. That is
[:[00:35:03] Jen: See, you can totally just open your face and sing. Yes, that is probably my most badass quality, honestly, that I’m really good at doing multiple things at one time.
[:[00:35:18] Jen: Yeah.
[:[00:35:20] Lorna: And you
[:[00:35:28] Lorna: So are you your own passion project? I kind of think that you are.
[:[00:35:51] Lorna: Yes, and I think that part of that is giving yourself permission and you are one of the women who’s given yourself permission to say, I, yes, I have all of these responsibilities and I am worth taking the time to do the things that I love for, to give, give myself the life that
[:[00:36:14] Jen: Yeah. Yeah. Cuz what’s the, what else are you gonna do? Like people will take and take and take and I just had, oh my gosh. My favorite pastor the other day said this to me. We were talking about something in you. He says, can I throw a little scripture at you? And I was like, okay, go ahead. And he said there was this man, I’m gonna shorten it.
[:[00:36:54] Jen: What are you gonna replace it with? Because if you don’t fill up the space, that’s where the demons come in.
[:[00:37:17] Jen: But if you don’t put something in its place, you just create a vacuum and that’s when the demons get in. And that was really helpful cuz it really helped me see like, oh, I really do try to fill my space. Even on a busy day or on things when things are like a lot happening, I tried it like I practice my guitar, you know, I do like 20 minutes of practice.
[:[00:37:49] Lorna: Yes, and in betrayal trauma world, which is where I am right now,
[:[00:37:56] Lorna: a recovering betrayal trauma survivor they talk about the self-care sandwich.
[:[00:38:04] Lorna: so it sounds like you are, and everyone does this, or tries to, wishes they could even and doesn’t know about it cuz don’t know the term or whatever.
[:[00:38:52] Jen: Yeah, because you can’t just deal with your trauma all the time or feel your feelings all the time, and you also don’t wanna numb out all the time.
[:[00:39:03] Jen: no,
[:[00:39:42] Jen: I will get sick. I will have a breakdown. I will. Like it’s not a joke here, like it needs to happen or I’m not functioning.
[:[00:39:55] Jen: Yes.
[:[00:39:57] Lorna: everyone has their own self-care needs and people who are creative tend to be creative about their self-care needs. So you’re looking outside of, oh, it means I get a manicure, which, you know, and things like, I think a lot of women think self-care is being selfish, but it’s not. It’s you refueling yourself so you can take on all of the things that you have to do every day, every
[:[00:40:23] Jen: Yeah. And sometimes it is just having a delicious actual sandwich and watching a show with not having people interrupt you. And sometimes it’s like, yeah, I’m not cooking dinner. Like I’m watching this show that none of you’re interested in with my sandwich I made for myself and y’all can fuck off.
[:[00:40:40] Jen: that’s that’s really important.
[:[00:40:43] Jen: Yes, it’s super important in caretaking because especially when you are efficient.. Like, I’m efficient and I can do a lot of things. Anything I join or be involved in slowly, like those things, will creep towards me like those asks because oh, I can just do that. It’s real easy. I’ve got, you know, I’m am able to do something quickly and easily and add it to my pile and add it to my pile and add it to my pile.
[:[00:41:14] Lorna: Right, and that’s one of the, another one of the problems that women have is saying no, giving yourself permission to say no. And in workplaces that is absolutely taken advantage of with the workload. They’re like, well, she’s not saying she can’t do it, so I’m just gonna load this on. Oh, and so and so quit.
[:[00:41:39] Jen: And they’re people pleasing and you wanna do a
[:[00:41:42] Lorna: You wanna do a good
[:[00:41:43] Jen: Right, because the patriarchy, you’re overlooked, so you’re trying to make up for it with working harder, which
[:[00:41:55] Jen: Yeah. It’s hard to be us.
[:[00:42:05] Lorna: What do you wish you could tell yourself, your young self? If you could go back in time?
[:[00:42:39] Jen: that happens to women in their twenties that is so distracting. Um, which is why I was so mad. Side note about Don Lemon saying women aren’t in their prime when they’re in their fifties.
[:[00:42:50] Jen: just, anyway, yeah, he just said this. He was on CNN and it’s a big thing happening, and
[:[00:42:57] Jen: Like he said, they’re in their prime in their twenties, 30, maybe forties. I’m like, oh my God, that’s not true. You’re, in your twenties and thirties for me anyway, I had to battle my own self all the time. My brain and the conditioning constantly battling that, and I don’t have to battle that anymore. And that is, that’s why I can be in my prime now because I’m not fighting with the external forces of society telling me I’m in my prime in my twenties or thirties, which is not true.
[:[00:44:12] Jen: It really doesn’t matter. And break up with him sooner.
[:[00:44:17] Lorna: yes.
[:[00:44:18] Lorna: Oh my gosh.
[:[00:44:28] Lorna: I saw your post
[:[00:44:40] Lorna: Yeah,
[:[00:44:44] Lorna: that’s good. That’s a good practical thing that
[:[00:44:48] Lorna: looking back, you could have told yourself.
[:[00:44:55] Lorna: I know everything. Is there anything coming up for you that you would like to plug? Is there
[:[00:45:01] Jen: Yeah, the show. Yes, the show that’s up right now at Museum of Museums. The soft touch show is really amazing. I have four pieces in that, but the whole thing is really fun and there’s a lot of interactive pieces, not mine. Please don’t touch my work, but there are peoples that you can touch and it’s labeled. There’s real interactive soft sculpture in there, which is fun.
[:[00:45:41] Lorna: Lovely. And the museum is on in Pill Hill
[:[00:45:46] Jen: yeah. Right off
[:[00:45:52] Lorna: Yeah, it’s a very cute building and honestly like I think one of the most interesting museums around, you know, being in Portland, we’ve got nothing. We have
[:[00:46:05] Lorna: Portland Art Museum, total Bunk.
[:[00:46:08] Jen: it’s it’s an independent museum, which is great. It’s not a nonprofit. Uh, it might actually be, I don’t know if he’s a nonprofit, but it’s, um, it’s an independent museum, so it’s not relying on big funding from anybody, so they really get to show what they want, and it’s really
[:[00:46:24] Lorna: And I love it. I’ve, yeah, I’ve been there a couple times now and it’s always interesting
[:[00:46:39] Lorna: challenging going on there.
[:[00:46:46] Lorna: challenges, making you expand your mind in a variety of ways.
[:[00:46:52] Lorna: So thank you so much for being on my podcast. I really appreciate having the opportunity to chat with you about all of these things, and I can’t wait to see your show and to visit you again sometime, and maybe you’ll come down to
[:[00:47:08] Lorna: and.
[:[00:47:21] Jen: Yes. Or at least design chicken mansions.
[:[00:47:27] Jen: Okay.
[:[00:47:29] Jen: Thank you.
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